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謝謝主席我們主席 我本來要跟主席要抱怨一下好 沒關係 我先請我們法務部的法治司司長今天是司長好 司長請"},{"start":17.816,"end":35.557,"text":"其實今天主席離開但是因為這可以做記錄我覺得今天我們的報告應該要有那個應該要有司法院的代表因為今天我們討論助理費相關其實法院也有很重要的角色"},{"start":37.739,"end":41.061,"text":"我在這邊先針對我們今天的專題報告當然主要是來自於陳一貞委員的提案我認為這個案子就是大家討論了這麼多也引起我們立法院這是不分各政黨黨派的助理高度的關注"},{"start":60.354,"end":77.791,"text":"我個人認為就是未來的這個法案的修法應該秉於兩個原則第一個就是不能夠侵害助理的權益這個是很重要的因為助理剛才我們主席說助理是我們的家人其實助理"},{"start":78.571,"end":104.663,"text":"對於立法委員或者對議員來講他就是我們的夥伴他就是我們的夥伴事實上不管是議員或助理他的這個所有他問政也好或者是他在地方的服務也好其實助理很多就是我們的分身所以我們是一個共同體是共同體所以不能夠侵害我們助理的這個權益那第二個那個原則應該是公款公用"},{"start":105.163,"end":125.321,"text":"我覺得這兩大原則是非常重要的但是過去其實十多年來因為有關於助理費乍領助理費的爭議不斷有人形容說這是歷史共益有人說形容歷史共業所謂共業就是說不管你是哪一個黨派都會有"},{"start":128.204,"end":146.325,"text":"議員或者立委要涉入其中那但是呢 我為什麼今天一開場我就講說今天應該要有司法院的代表來但是呢 我覺得我想先就一個案例一個案例來就教於我們法務部"},{"start":147.466,"end":156.376,"text":"那就說有關於助理費的制度的設計照理說我們今天不管修法如何怎麼樣修法它應該所謂的一體適用應該是一體適用那也許地方的議員的助理費因為它是兩個不同的法律"},{"start":165.666,"end":190.1,"text":"但是同一部法律就應該一體適用所以我在這邊要特別提到就是新竹市長高鴻安的助理費的爭議他的助理費爭議主要是來自於加班費的使用來自於加班費使用他被判重刑7年4個月而且停止了市長的職務"},{"start":193.43,"end":206.519,"text":"因為呢 高鴻漢當時當立法委員的時候他的團隊他的團隊的助理呢是來自於我們的監察院前秘書長李敬義秘書長的這個團隊"},{"start":209.401,"end":233.063,"text":"所以高鴻安一直爭議的是他們在他們的辦公室團隊所使用這個加班費的這個的方式事實上是沿用沿用李俊逸委員當時是李俊逸委員辦公室的方式那因為這個案子後來扯出李俊逸那麼"},{"start":234.184,"end":236.005,"text":"當時北檢有沒有調查呢北檢是有調查的北檢是有調查的那麼也傳喚了他的助理這個助理叫黃惠文那因為他就是涉及高鴻安這個助理費他的加班費的這個"},{"start":253.49,"end":268.425,"text":"就是依貪污治罪條例他這個不是只有高鴻安被治罪那麼其他的助理老實講那時候我們討論很多我印象裡他們其實他們的費用非常非常少但是全部都判刑當然有很多都判了緩刑"},{"start":269.486,"end":298.866,"text":"那李俊逸這個案子呢北檢當時確實有分案調查而且傳喚助理到庭說明根據這位助理黃惠文的說法說法他對外的說法他說確實因為他是在李俊逸辦公室是要用這樣的方式然後到了高鴻安委員的辦公室也用這樣的方式他的方式就是說你拿到你的加班費然後再回捐再回捐到辦公室由辦公室來做使用"},{"start":299.826,"end":317.639,"text":"好高鴻安現在二審即將宣判二審即將宣判但是李靜怡的案子到現在已經32個月32個月沒有下文請問一下市長"},{"start":318.925,"end":330.851,"text":"像這樣子的案子 一個案子已經二審都要宣判了那另外一個類似的案子32個月沒有下文 合理嗎"},{"start":333.396,"end":358.273,"text":"你笑了不是我不是笑我只是說各該案件都有各該案件的事證的問題那我想這個部分來講因為我個人是法治單位那檢查機關他當然本於他的職長都會就是就相關的事證來做一個認定那因為不同的案件事證的不同情況之下可能偵辦的一個過程裡頭就會有時間上頭"},{"start":364.376,"end":369.538,"text":"看起來好像李俊逸這個案子好像特別複雜這應該要回到該個案那我們不會去試射到個案來做討論通常這都是你們的標準答案我還是很有耐心的讓你回答因為這要有記錄"},{"start":383.162,"end":396.999,"text":"但是這個案子所以就難免被外界認為說是不是雙標 你懂我意思嗎高鴻安他有辦 而且呢現在我就說已經到了二審即將宣判李俊逸將近"},{"start":398.2,"end":420.626,"text":"32個月很快的3年就過去了我們也不曉得這個案子第一個到底有沒有在偵辦第二個他到底就是在檢察官新政認為能不能所以我一直在講說我們說建立制度很重要但是呢不管檢調或者是法院他的新政跟他的辦案態度也很重要"},{"start":421.326,"end":432.534,"text":"黎智英這案子 他的案子也是同樣的也是用他的加班費把他回捐根據這個他的助理的對外也是這樣子公開的講法也是一樣那麼"},{"start":435.3,"end":464.059,"text":"這個案子呢當然我後來再看他這個助理有講他說李俊逸他不管錢他講了一個說李俊逸不管錢好但是無論如何但是無論如何你今天拿了讓助理拿了加班費再回捐出來那李俊逸的案子到底可不可以那沒有道理說這個案子第一個我也不知道他辦的怎麼樣第二個你不然就牽結他你覺得他沒問題你就牽結他你也不牽結"},{"start":465.841,"end":478.632,"text":"你認為不需要起訴你就不起訴他也可以你不然覺得起訴他那大家就再來那個什麼我想李俊英自己法律出身對不對他一定會為自己的那個什麼來辯護"},{"start":480.314,"end":503.541,"text":"結果什麼都沒有所以這樣子的做法到底OK不OK還是告訴你高鴻安不OK李靜怡就OK所以這個助理費相關的案件為什麼會引起這麼多爭議為什麼會引起這麼多的商標這個是其中之一另外我再特別提到一個就是"},{"start":506.761,"end":523.955,"text":"這個因為時間有限我要講一個案例這個案例我也覺得非常扯因為有非常多的助理我剛講藍的綠的白的都有這個案例那其中有一個是台南市議員王家珍的案例我剛講說"},{"start":525.851,"end":535.704,"text":"第一個我們不能傷害助理的權益第二個我們應該公款公用王家珍這個案例呢他的特殊是在什麼地方啊"},{"start":536.9,"end":556.589,"text":"是在於他因為他有兩個助理可能是積欠卡債還怎麼樣的他會被法院執行所以呢他有高報其他助理的助理費然後再把其他的助理費呢再拿來去補助再去補貼給這兩個助理"},{"start":559.25,"end":584.075,"text":"這個在法官的裁定之下裁定是很確定他確實是取之於助理用之於助理他可能拿ABC助理然後把他拿在把他的費用再拿給另外兩位他被法院執行就是因為如果你再報他就是被法院執行拿不了那麼多錢所以王嘉珍的例子是"},{"start":584.935,"end":598.772,"text":"他一毛錢 他一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡他取之於助理 用之於助理所以後來法院怎麼判他呢法院沒有判他貪污自罪條例但是說他 就是說他那個"},{"start":600.254,"end":621.783,"text":"就是偽造文書 使公務員登載不實就判他緩刑我想法院也有 也有這個憐憫之心啦他也想說 你根本就是沒有 你一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡啊所以呢 判他緩刑可是王家珍還是認為要爭自己氣他說我一毛錢都沒有拿 我是清白的那"},{"start":623.584,"end":643.296,"text":"他判他緩刑 所以他就沒有去選擇他去繳罰金你要判緩刑 他認為說自己是清白的結果 這個我們那個召委非常清楚啊結果我們立法院修改了我們的公職人員選罷法說你判緩刑 不能參選"},{"start":648.226,"end":654.818,"text":"王嘉生當年因為這個案子他不得成為候選人中選會不讓他登記"},{"start":656.409,"end":681.291,"text":"所以我要講的 這個源自於一個助理費 你以為他乍領助理費可是法院其實也某個程度法院還他清白說你沒有乍領所以他根本沒有用貪污治罪條例辦他啦他就說你其實通通都用在助理身上你是因為認為助理這樣子如果這樣子被法院執行那實在這個所得太低了"},{"start":682.412,"end":704.541,"text":"他用這樣的方式 結果呢 判他緩刑當時法院 我在查法官也沒有想到說最後竟然會修一個說緩刑不得參選當時是想要 可能想用這種方式這種方式來處理可是這個案子呢就有出現違反這個比例原則的問題啊所以對王家珍這個議員來說他沒有任何的貪污啊"},{"start":712.182,"end":723.008,"text":"他是公款公用啊他也維護助理的權益啊他通通都符合可是最後其結果他竟然被褫奪他被參選的權利所以我今天講了這幾個案例是在這麼多年來很多案例"},{"start":732.953,"end":753.161,"text":"被大家討論所以我們現在同樣一個一個助理費的制度之下會出現這麼多不公平的事情確實出現了這麼多不公平的事情你老實說我剛剛為什麼在講那個說召委應該把法院叫來我們同樣的那個在新北市一位議員應該是周雅玲議員"},{"start":756.002,"end":759.564,"text":"他的狀況是什麼呢都已經確定他有把助理費拿去繳房貸拿去繳什麼社區管理費 八八八 都有可是呢 法院最後怎麼樣認定呢法院說 啊 可是你啊在這個服務地方啊 什麼等之類的你的公費的支出啊 也很多所以呢 最後呢 也判他緩刑"},{"start":780.58,"end":793.21,"text":"可是他的狀況他跟王家政王家政是一毛錢都沒有放過自己的口袋裡面但是周雅玲是確實拿去繳錢繳自己的自己的房貸錢繳自己的那個什麼他們從金流通通都查出來"},{"start":794.591,"end":820.692,"text":"但是他後來以說啊我可能這種什麼紅白帖啊什麼吧啦吧啦就說你這個也有一定的數量就是有點像大水庫理論這個大水庫理論呢在很多的法院有一些法官採取大水庫理論他會給予比較輕的刑度有一些法官根本不採刑只認為你只要你只要沒有公用我就重判"},{"start":822.138,"end":844.581,"text":"所以在這些制度下所以我覺得因為今天沒有法院沒有法院的代表來當然有我們法務部您剛才講說你也沒有辦法什麼救個案但是我要講就一個加班費光是一個加班費的制度就出現了一個制度一個法條兩個世界"},{"start":846.62,"end":858.162,"text":"這個就是外界所認為不合理的到現在我都不曉得到底你如果按照那個高鴻安的做法或按照李俊逸的做法到底OK不OK呀"},{"start":859.508,"end":880.404,"text":"不能說不同政黨有不同OK的方式所以我要講就是說我們在整個的修法過程裡面我再重述其實我個人非常重視助理的權益我自己是議員出身我到了立法院我第一件事我是第一個提出幫地方助理加薪法案的"},{"start":881.224,"end":905.79,"text":"立法委員當然後來很多我們跨黨派的很多的立委不管是提出修法或者是支持我自己從地方議會出來那我也真有敢於我們地方議會的助理確實工作量很大但是呢20多年當時我提出來是20幾年從來沒有加薪過所以我提出來幫地方議會的助理加薪那"},{"start":908.15,"end":933.861,"text":"當然我剛才講但是我們這種有關於詐領助理費仍然是層出不窮詐領當然是我們社會或者法律所不容但是我在這邊今天的質詢我要提出來就是我們在這樣的一個標準之下就即便我們現在沒有修法的標準之下仍然會有很多不公平的現象那這也是我們必須要去努力的一個方向以上 好 謝謝"},{"start":936.567,"end":941.653,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}