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謝謝主席 那我要請立法院的副秘書長還有立法院的法治局局長請副秘書長還有法治局局長"},{"start":16.639,"end":40.239,"text":"來 委員好好 兩位我想要就剛剛副秘書長您的答覆我們接下來往下問剛王逸川委員問了然後吳思耀委員也問了如果有人沒有請助理那你們請要不要撥給他那你的說法呢一下說有研究一下說只是看過一下我已經不知道你的說法到底是什麼但我認為你很為難因為你其實上面有長官我也知道你撥好多說那我來舉一個例子什麼樣的委員膽敢"},{"start":44.142,"end":57.98,"text":"覺得自己了不起偉大到不需要請助理然後還來拿這個錢我試想了一下有誰敢這麼大膽那我就用一般公民社會對於立法委員的想像來說我手上有一張呢"},{"start":59.549,"end":83.925,"text":"這些是被工都盟按照實際的數據統計出來的不來質詢的委員他們的工作表現光是基本的質詢就不來他就算翻翻報紙當天來問新聞都好但是他來都不來這些人就很有可能不請助理然後來當立法委員我來唸一下名字"},{"start":85.354,"end":95.701,"text":"黃建斌 林倩琦 圖全吉 盧憲一 張志倫 林佩翔 謝龍介 顏寬恆 丁學中 麥玉珍 倒數第十"},{"start":97.113,"end":124.645,"text":"光是質詢提法案提預算做都不做來都不來而這些人就很有可能符合我們剛剛的假設因為你剛剛說你不回答假設性問題但我還是要問假設這些委員覺得自己了不起只要選上了反正預算呢公民也看不懂法案審查一般人也看不懂然後呢有沒有上電視被發現有沒有質詢也沒有人在意反正他就當一個"},{"start":126.646,"end":131.112,"text":"領700多萬的陽春立委這樣的人你們也要撥款給他嗎"},{"start":133.846,"end":157.419,"text":"謝謝委員 我無權發表個人的評論你無權發表喔 所以我要問我們立法院的錢是人民的納稅錢就直接會匯入這些委員的私人帳戶嗎我要再問一次 會匯入私人帳戶嗎因為剛剛有委員問嘛 這個錢不會進入私人帳戶那我就問 不進私人帳戶 那我陳培瑜擔任立委期間我要怎麼拿到這筆錢啊"},{"start":160.191,"end":174.931,"text":"如果委員想要了解的是現在目前的一個撥款狀況我當然知道現在的狀況我們在針對陳玉珍委員的提案跟您討論那這個部分是陳玉珍委員的提案我們實在不適合就評論好 沒關係您隔壁是法治局局長"},{"start":176.516,"end":194.869,"text":"在今年114年呢你們出了一個報告報告的名字呢好沒有訊號沒關係我直接說報告的名字叫做各國國會公費助理之比較研究監論立法委員聘任公費助理相關法治問題研究分析"},{"start":196.314,"end":214.033,"text":"出這個報告的是法治局的郭明正也就是您本人還有陳偉佑114年3月 請問您還記得這個報告嗎我知道在報告裡面你們有一段話讓我看了瞠目結舌啊原來立法院的幕僚單位可以指導司法機關"},{"start":215.936,"end":222.001,"text":"你覺得你有這麼大嗎我念給你聽喔我對您的懷疑是你身為立法院的幕僚機關你竟然可以指導司法機關我們等一下法務部來說一說他們的立場但在那之前我要先聽一聽您的立場你覺得你比司法機關還要大你的報告是這麼說的"},{"start":236.294,"end":263.604,"text":"你說目前國會的公費治理制度呢採寬鬆管理用人彈性的規定司法檢調機關云影在尊重立法機關的國會自律範圍內限縮相關違法性調查之偵查審判範圍你要不要自己用白話文解釋一下這句話什麼意思你對全國人民說你這句話什麼意思"},{"start":265.023,"end":284.03,"text":"叫司法機關說我們立法委員就是要給彈性給空間給好給滿你們司法機關在調查這些立法委員的時候要放寬彈性放好放滿然後相關的違法偵查審判範圍你們司法機關少說一點少管一點是這個意思嗎"},{"start":285.89,"end":304.256,"text":"我們做這一份報告是給我們委員做參考給我們委員做參考所以你的意思是陳玉珍看了你這個參考之後覺得我撿到寶了我按照你們的建議我來做出強害公費助理權益的修法"},{"start":305.273,"end":321.76,"text":"我沒辦法揣測陳一正委員的提案我們都會尊重委員的提案那我可以問你嗎請問法治局做各式各樣的報告都是因著法案法案的提案而來對不對或者是針對相關社會輿情討論或者是你們覺得重要的議題是嗎沒有"},{"start":322.08,"end":342.501,"text":"根文報告 基本上我們是立法院的幕僚我們是協助立法院做問政的參考我們收集各國的相關文獻來做這樣的專案很好 你自己都說了 你是立法院的幕僚機關你為什麼會寫出這個結論啊你為什麼覺得你可以指導司法機關做出這個限縮範圍的討論跟偵查範圍啊"},{"start":345.504,"end":363.784,"text":"你說我指導司法機關這個太沉重我沒有指導是嗎 你的寫法看起來就像指導司法機關我們是建議而已建議對 我們是建議好 那請問你這個建議的基礎跟背景是因為你覺得有非常多立法委員或是基層民意代表在相關助理費上有產生很多爭議"},{"start":364.705,"end":384.262,"text":"所以你認為你要積極的幫這些立法委員跟民意代表爭取更大的空間來使用這個助理費你是這個意思嗎我們這部的報告都有前後的邏輯好我讓你說你的邏輯是什麼如果說要這樣子的話我是不是要全部把它念過一遍我不用你全部問因為這個全部都有上網公開但我就問"},{"start":385.143,"end":399.245,"text":"那這一句關於指導司法機關的你怎麼說所以人家才會說陳玉珍的修法在除罪話陳玉珍的修法是要自肥啊那你怎麼看好 身為法治局那我現在就問你針對陳玉珍委員的提案你怎麼看"},{"start":401.243,"end":427.359,"text":"跟委員報委員的提案只是提出來然後大家討論 其他委員也都可以提案大家討論 那太好了 我們來討論一下來 局長我問一下 你怎麼看陳玉珍的提案我們現在來討論 我的看法就是這樣 我跟你討論我的看法很簡單民意代表不可以壓榨國會助理剛剛所有委員都說了 不管支不支持這個提案"},{"start":428.516,"end":446.972,"text":"你應該可以看得出來如果立法委員沒有國會助理的幫忙請問我們的質詢我們的法案我們的預算審查我們的選民服務我們所有跟專家學者民間團體的討論甚至是我們所有今天每一天在立法院所發生的事情都需要國會助理不是嗎而當國會助理的錢全部都要打包給立法委員是人民納稅的錢在這裡劃的"},{"start":454.699,"end":470.985,"text":"每一年8.5億的錢全部打包給113個立法委員然後造成一種私吞公帑的狀況然後還不用單據欸我就不知道問喔不用單據要怎麼核銷啊我都不想問後面的主計之類的我就問怎麼核銷"},{"start":473.618,"end":490.095,"text":"然後這些錢呢還不是只有立法委員喔還有議員的部分陳玉珍這次修法更殘忍的是他把地方議員的部分一起提進來的也就是說陳玉珍他他認為他是做好人他私下跟我聊天說他在做好人他在救很多人啊"},{"start":490.896,"end":520.596,"text":"好人做到滿不是只有中央的民意代表連地方議員的助理費一併提案而那個費用來到29.8億所以全台灣人的納稅錢每年將近40億全部直接打包給民意代表放進他的私人賬戶問號因為剛你們也沒有解釋清楚到底要放哪裡去然後這些錢不用單據核銷不用公開透明不用跟國人報告這些錢用到哪裡去了"},{"start":522.076,"end":549.026,"text":"這就是陳玉珍修法的現況身為法治局的專業你怎麼看那跟委員報告我是第三屆就進來立法院我在立法院將近大概滿30年太好了我也認識很多公衛助理其實我的內心是覺得委員跟助理是一個很緊密的關係太好了內心這段多講一點來現在目前的一些我也認識很多很優秀的助理"},{"start":549.386,"end":566.481,"text":"是對 這些助理對委員的問責其實幫很多所以我們都一直希望朝著保障助理的角度因為這是委員的提案這個工會助理的事務這個業務不是我們法律履辦相關的執行細節真的要問"},{"start":567.722,"end":592.457,"text":"人事單位那我在立法院將近30年我看到很多委員的助理都非常的優秀那協助委員的問證我覺得這個現在目前的對助理制度的保障是我是覺得還是不大夠大聲一點啦因為你剛剛戴口罩剛剛這段話拜託你重複一遍根據你的內心話你認為光是現在的制度對於現任的公費助理保障都已經不夠了對不對"},{"start":594.638,"end":622.777,"text":"對不對我再問一次對不對我是蠻贊同我們院長講的就是說應該這個委員跟助理是一個國會的一個核心的領域我們一起來共同維護立法權的尊嚴太好了我們今天總算聽到您的真心話剛都沒有委員叫你上來但我就很想聽真心話謝謝你用30年的經驗告訴這些提案的委員到現在還不肯撤案的委員我們來看下一張哪些人"},{"start":624.178,"end":630.125,"text":"我們先直接跳下一張這些人我不要為難你 我幫你念"},{"start":632.059,"end":652.809,"text":"提案人陳玉珍不管是立法院組織法或是地方民意代表費用連署的人這些人還想出來選縣市首長當他們在當民意代表的時候就已經決定這樣苛刻自己的助理我難以想像這些人當上地方首長之後他會如何對待他的幕僚如何對待他每天幫他賣命付出"},{"start":653.709,"end":683.009,"text":"的人林思敏要選舉蘇清泉可能也要選舉盧憲一鄭振前丁薛忠高進素美陳雪生邱振軍洪孟凱黃仁鄭天才馬文君謝龍介呂玉玲邱若驊陳超明徐宇珍游皓葛如君翁曉琳廖先祥羅明才林倩琪徐欣盈楊瓊英林德福張家俊"},{"start":683.989,"end":706.485,"text":"委員的名字都在上面了我幫你念完了我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍你要不要撤案請你趕快做出說明不要說出模擬兩可的話甚至還打算摸頭公費助理還有助理公會的幹部說可以討論但不撤案我沒有辦法接受這個說法"},{"start":707.346,"end":729.95,"text":"第二我也想要公開呼籲這些委員你們可以撤簽當然現在因為已經送到委員會了撤簽必須要提案委員的認可所以我不知道陳玉珍會不會施壓給這些簽名的委員不讓他們撤簽但我認為不論是撤案或是撤簽都是所謂的回頭試案"},{"start":732.691,"end":760.688,"text":"不要再讓公費助理承受更多不公平的對待而陳玉珍甚至還荒謬跟傅昆奇說這是進步法案我就問哪裡進步他們還說美國都是這樣來 我請教您喔在您的報告當中有研究到各國的法制 對嗎你要不要告訴我在美國所謂的一大包打包給國會議員相關的配套是什麼"},{"start":762.301,"end":777.567,"text":"你可以告訴我嗎可以請您說明嗎 在您的報告裡面你不用照念 你只要大概告訴我因為陳玉珍跟傅昆奇一直在對外瞎講說美國也是這樣做的我其實有研究我也可以說 但我想聽聽您的說法"},{"start":779.307,"end":799.705,"text":"因為美國是一個總統制的國家其實我們現在的工會助理的主要制度是模仿美國的制度我們這邊的收集的文獻資料現在美國的眾議院他的助理他全職 最多可以聘到18人"},{"start":801.892,"end":819.825,"text":"他的全職至多可以聘到18人是全職至多聘到18人那費用是怎麼給的他的費用我們做一個統計在2022年這邊的費用他眾議員他的助理的費用我們平均大概是17.9萬"},{"start":822.659,"end":844.007,"text":"那怎麼給的嘛 給助理還是給老闆 給國會議員他那個也是一個 給眾議員一個統籌去分配的那種概念給了這個統籌之後呢可是他要負擔據啦負擔據太好了 要負擔據 除此之外呢我是說美國這邊 美國對我說美國負擔據大概就這樣子 他要負擔據"},{"start":847.219,"end":873.539,"text":"然後如果沒有用完呢公開報表要公開報表太好了附單據公開報表還有呢如果沒有用完呢這邊是因為它是一個給中研統籌的概念好 那我來解釋一下意思就是說你的研究跟我查到資料是一樣的一 所有的國會議員拿到這一大包我剛剛說的每一個人一年拿到多少錢拿到"},{"start":875.04,"end":895.085,"text":"700多萬嘛 按照你們現在的預算表沒有 我說我們台灣啦每一個立法委員如果按照陳玉珍這個提案修法之後我們每一個人會拿到700多萬喔然後呢 這個統包如果用到美國現在的配套一 它要有單據核銷二 相關的單據核銷必須要上網公開透明"},{"start":896.185,"end":920.94,"text":"讓全民可以檢視得以向納稅人報告所以不是你立法委員要怎麼用就怎麼用這個叫做所謂的配套可是在我們台灣立法院可能會有一個荒謬的狀況你聽聽看喔因為之前在提法院直播的時候相關的配套羅志強跟黃國昌就說好你們司法院可以去訂配套結果訂了配套之後他們又不高興又要給人家翻桌又要給人家翻案然後呢又要修法所以連配套他們不滿意都可以修耶立法委員這麼大"},{"start":925.442,"end":936.91,"text":"大道可以提一個自肥的法案 然後相關的配套不滿意 又可以翻桌所以我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍 傅坤祺 請你們停止撤回這樣的法案 最後我要說"},{"start":938.479,"end":954.351,"text":"有人標榜自己是清新的立委有人標榜自己是了不起的立委有一個人叫黃國昌在第十一屆工都盟給予的這個承諾書裡面呢第十一屆立委國會改革承諾書黃國昌很了不起的在政下方簽名"},{"start":955.552,"end":961.853,"text":"其中有一條叫做什麼呢 叫做積極訂定國會助理專法 明定助理地位職責 聘用資格 權力保障等規定杜絕詐領及挪用助理費用 很好 黃國昌你簽名了但很可惜我在黃委員今天的質詢當中沒有聽到他對這件事情的表態甚至今天所有在野黨的委員上台質詢也都沒有對陳昱珍的法案有所表態 我要說非常的遺憾我希望這些委員不要成為幫兇"},{"start":983.817,"end":1009.621,"text":"曾经签过这张公开承诺书的黄国昌也不要忘记了你对国人的承诺对自己的承诺我也希望法治局跟副秘书长你们一定要秉持幕僚的专业跟良心让你们的院长有最好的建议让他有机会去跟陈玉珍 傅坤祺提出撤案跟撤签谢谢好 谢谢陈培宇委"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}