{"error":false,"id":["16639"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16639,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16639","日期":"2025-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-15-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-05-01T08:31:32+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-01T11:38:00+08:00","影片長度":"03:06:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea62c05bd4558c408683679203eefbeec014bfadd538e1bbbf1c7a45f116004e755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。九、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:31:32 - 11:38:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1842.6122187500002,"end":1845.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1845.90284375,"end":1848.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1849.0415937500002,"end":1853.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1853.8340937500002,"end":1863.8578437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1864.0603437500001,"end":1867.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1867.6209687500002,"end":1871.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1871.5865937500002,"end":1877.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1877.9147187500002,"end":1880.7328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1881.0365937500003,"end":1883.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1883.9728437500003,"end":1888.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1888.6640937500001,"end":1890.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1890.48659375,"end":1893.0853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1893.3553437500002,"end":1897.0340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1897.0678437500003,"end":1902.0628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1902.1978437500002,"end":1905.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1905.6065937500002,"end":1908.9647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1909.16721875,"end":1912.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1912.6265937500002,"end":1916.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1916.9634687500002,"end":1921.6378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1921.8065937500003,"end":1927.9659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1929.0628437500002,"end":1932.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1933.6697187500001,"end":1938.2597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1940.26784375,"end":1945.5159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1945.7184687500003,"end":1951.4390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1951.6753437500001,"end":1956.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1956.85596875,"end":1961.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1961.3784687500001,"end":1963.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1963.45409375,"end":1968.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1968.4659687500002,"end":1974.2709687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1974.5072187500002,"end":1979.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1979.90721875,"end":1986.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1987.3153437500002,"end":1996.5628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1998.04784375,"end":1999.3809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2000.3597187500002,"end":2001.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2003.2284687500003,"end":2008.4259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2009.6915937500003,"end":2011.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2013.3197187500002,"end":2013.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2014.92284375,"end":2020.1878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2021.0147187500002,"end":2021.8078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2030.95409375,"end":2031.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2031.81471875,"end":2036.2865937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2037.85596875,"end":2148.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2149.45034375,"end":2168.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2171.75909375,"end":2173.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2184.3309687500005,"end":2262.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2262.88409375,"end":2271.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2272.3172187500004,"end":2356.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2357.0465937500003,"end":2445.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2446.1972187500005,"end":2465.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2468.35409375,"end":2470.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2477.97284375,"end":2478.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2487.3047187500006,"end":2532.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2532.34409375,"end":2623.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2624.5997187500006,"end":2624.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2624.8190937500003,"end":2630.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2630.9784687500005,"end":2670.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2675.3428437500006,"end":2679.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2695.3565937500007,"end":2698.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2698.7147187500004,"end":2699.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2700.2334687500006,"end":2701.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2702.6297187500004,"end":2710.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2710.2403437500006,"end":2710.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2711.4384687500005,"end":2718.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2718.0703437500006,"end":2718.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2721.69846875,"end":2730.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2731.1990937500004,"end":2738.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2739.13034375,"end":2740.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2740.98659375,"end":2744.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2745.39096875,"end":2751.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2751.3309687500005,"end":2758.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2759.7009687500004,"end":2776.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2776.49159375,"end":2781.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2782.09409375,"end":2789.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2790.10971875,"end":2793.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2794.0078437500006,"end":2801.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2801.6015937500006,"end":2810.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2810.59596875,"end":2813.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2814.0722187500005,"end":2816.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2816.4853437500005,"end":2819.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2819.26971875,"end":2821.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2821.6153437500006,"end":2822.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2823.1678437500004,"end":2832.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2832.78659375,"end":2846.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2847.2315937500007,"end":2851.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2851.58534375,"end":2856.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2857.3397187500004,"end":2858.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2858.68971875,"end":2860.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2860.8497187500006,"end":2862.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2862.48659375,"end":2866.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2866.3678437500002,"end":2870.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2873.3709687500004,"end":2876.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2882.98971875,"end":2885.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2886.29721875,"end":2891.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2892.1697187500004,"end":2895.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2895.8990937500002,"end":2900.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2901.41721875,"end":2920.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2921.00909375,"end":2924.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2925.0928437500006,"end":2937.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2938.13721875,"end":2940.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2940.6178437500002,"end":2943.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2944.0603437500004,"end":2944.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2945.1065937500007,"end":2956.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2957.1384687500004,"end":2964.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2965.1709687500006,"end":2968.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2968.27596875,"end":2970.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2970.68909375,"end":2982.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2982.72096875,"end":2992.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2992.9978437500004,"end":2993.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2993.16659375,"end":3029.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3029.54909375,"end":3037.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3038.6953437500006,"end":3043.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3043.3865937500004,"end":3050.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3050.7947187500004,"end":3052.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3052.4822187500004,"end":3054.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3054.2372187500005,"end":3055.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3056.0934687500003,"end":3058.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3058.3209687500002,"end":3063.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3063.73784375,"end":3112.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3112.86096875,"end":3123.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3123.6609687500004,"end":3125.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3125.4159687500005,"end":3125.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3126.6309687500006,"end":3129.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3129.2128437500005,"end":3132.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3132.9928437500002,"end":3162.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3162.74346875,"end":3177.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3178.25159375,"end":3179.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3179.38221875,"end":3184.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3184.3434687500003,"end":3187.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3188.05596875,"end":3190.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3191.0428437500004,"end":3216.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3217.0809687500005,"end":3217.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3218.66721875,"end":3221.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3221.56971875,"end":3224.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3225.01221875,"end":3225.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3225.5690937500003,"end":3228.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3228.3365937500002,"end":3245.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3245.9034687500007,"end":3253.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3253.69971875,"end":3285.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3286.1503437500005,"end":3286.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3288.3103437500004,"end":3298.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3298.7390937500004,"end":3299.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3299.7684687500005,"end":3300.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3300.6290937500007,"end":3302.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3302.3672187500006,"end":3304.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3304.91534375,"end":3305.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3307.4803437500004,"end":3308.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3309.08346875,"end":3335.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3335.5772187500006,"end":3337.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3337.9228437500005,"end":3338.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3338.56409375,"end":3339.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3340.30221875,"end":3344.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3344.45346875,"end":3345.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3346.1072187500004,"end":3348.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3348.92534375,"end":3350.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3351.3553437500004,"end":3353.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3354.08909375,"end":3360.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3360.6872187500003,"end":3363.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3364.21409375,"end":3366.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3366.57659375,"end":3374.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3374.6934687500006,"end":3382.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3382.6247187500003,"end":3383.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3384.5822187500007,"end":3388.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3388.5984687500004,"end":3393.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3394.06596875,"end":3396.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3396.88409375,"end":3419.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3422.9559687500005,"end":3427.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3427.8497187500006,"end":3430.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3430.53284375,"end":3448.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3449.26409375,"end":3452.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3464.09721875,"end":3466.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3467.1178437500002,"end":3468.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3472.46721875,"end":3495.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3495.7547187500004,"end":3497.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3498.1003437500003,"end":3498.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3499.2647187500006,"end":3518.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3501.93096875,"end":3502.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3506.3015937500004,"end":3506.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3508.91721875,"end":3509.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3511.7353437500005,"end":3511.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3511.76909375,"end":3512.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3512.59596875,"end":3512.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3518.5865937500002,"end":3518.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3518.9747187500006,"end":3574.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3575.2697187500007,"end":3620.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3596.73471875,"end":3596.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3596.9540937500005,"end":3597.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3597.2072187500007,"end":3597.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3608.1759687500007,"end":3608.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3620.61284375,"end":3621.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3622.06409375,"end":3629.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3629.82659375,"end":3631.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3632.0878437500005,"end":3635.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3635.3447187500005,"end":3636.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3637.1503437500005,"end":3648.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3647.8828437500006,"end":3686.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3649.4522187500006,"end":3649.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3686.9822187500004,"end":3688.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3692.63534375,"end":3692.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3692.9728437500007,"end":3693.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3693.5128437500007,"end":3693.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3693.5465937500003,"end":3703.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3703.8065937500005,"end":3703.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3703.82346875,"end":3703.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3703.9753437500003,"end":3704.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3704.4815937500007,"end":3760.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3704.5153437500003,"end":3704.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3720.2597187500005,"end":3720.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3735.8690937500005,"end":3736.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3761.0128437500007,"end":3761.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3762.2615937500004,"end":3765.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3765.61971875,"end":3769.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3770.8172187500004,"end":3813.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3790.1559687500003,"end":3790.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3791.5734687500008,"end":3791.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3791.6240937500006,"end":3791.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3814.0340937500005,"end":3819.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3819.5184687500005,"end":3841.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3841.2028437500003,"end":3842.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3842.56971875,"end":3848.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3848.96534375,"end":3851.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3851.42909375,"end":3853.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3853.9434687500006,"end":3892.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3872.8097187500007,"end":3873.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3887.8622187500005,"end":3888.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3892.30034375,"end":3906.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3895.3547187500008,"end":3895.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3906.1378437500007,"end":3907.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3906.7115937500002,"end":3906.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3907.4540937500005,"end":3923.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3907.48784375,"end":3907.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3917.05596875,"end":3917.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3922.2028437500003,"end":4032.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3952.56096875,"end":3953.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3975.4940937500005,"end":3975.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3975.9665937500004,"end":3976.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3976.2028437500003,"end":3976.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3976.55721875,"end":3976.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3976.72596875,"end":3976.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4027.4353437500004,"end":4027.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4027.53659375,"end":4027.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4027.72221875,"end":4027.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4032.0253437500005,"end":4052.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4051.3640937500004,"end":4053.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4053.4734687500004,"end":4053.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4053.5409687500005,"end":4053.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4053.5578437500008,"end":4053.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4053.57471875,"end":4053.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4056.4940937500005,"end":4057.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4069.0322187500005,"end":4071.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4071.9178437500004,"end":4072.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4077.6047187500008,"end":4078.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4078.95471875,"end":4079.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4079.2753437500005,"end":4085.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4085.5528437500006,"end":4086.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4086.6328437500006,"end":4104.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4089.0290937500004,"end":4089.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4104.452843749999,"end":4108.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4108.78971875,"end":4108.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4108.97534375,"end":4109.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4109.093468749999,"end":4109.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4109.3465937500005,"end":4110.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4110.29159375,"end":4110.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4110.47721875,"end":4114.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4115.21909375,"end":4117.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4117.9697187500005,"end":4125.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4126.47471875,"end":4127.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4128.5165937500005,"end":4129.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4129.545968750001,"end":4132.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4133.376593749999,"end":4134.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4135.36784375,"end":4143.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4143.872843749999,"end":4147.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4148.614718750001,"end":4153.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4154.40284375,"end":4155.550343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4156.14096875,"end":4158.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4159.161593750001,"end":4173.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4173.72471875,"end":4178.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4179.58034375,"end":4183.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4183.950968749999,"end":4189.722218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4191.122843749999,"end":4209.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4209.128468749999,"end":4212.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4212.94221875,"end":4222.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4223.151593750001,"end":4226.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4226.91471875,"end":4240.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4240.296593749999,"end":4240.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4241.62971875,"end":4241.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4242.86159375,"end":4246.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4246.439093749999,"end":4248.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4248.919718749999,"end":4250.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4251.029093749999,"end":4264.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4264.84971875,"end":4265.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4265.575343750001,"end":4266.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4266.80721875,"end":4269.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4271.279093749999,"end":4271.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4272.24096875,"end":4276.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4276.64534375,"end":4282.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4283.294093750001,"end":4286.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4287.462218750001,"end":4287.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4288.170968750001,"end":4291.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4292.17034375,"end":4295.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4295.25846875,"end":4305.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4306.159718749999,"end":4308.269093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4309.770968750001,"end":4311.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4311.745343750001,"end":4312.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4313.095343749999,"end":4314.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4314.66471875,"end":4316.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4316.385968750001,"end":4316.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4316.436593750001,"end":4318.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4318.27596875,"end":4318.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4318.967843750001,"end":4325.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4326.39284375,"end":4328.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4328.755343750001,"end":4333.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4334.155343750001,"end":4334.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4335.01596875,"end":4335.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4335.67409375,"end":4348.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4349.5115937499995,"end":4354.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4354.32096875,"end":4354.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4355.02971875,"end":4372.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4373.91284375,"end":4377.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4378.33409375,"end":4419.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4381.60784375,"end":4381.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4418.952218750001,"end":4440.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4421.82096875,"end":4422.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4441.04159375,"end":4441.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4442.12159375,"end":4444.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4444.872218750001,"end":4447.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4447.92659375,"end":4460.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4453.69784375,"end":4454.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4460.97096875,"end":4461.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4461.25784375,"end":4461.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4464.76784375,"end":4467.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4477.170968750001,"end":4479.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4480.19159375,"end":4481.237843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4486.2665937500005,"end":4491.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4492.4090937500005,"end":4494.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4495.64909375,"end":4496.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4496.3915937500005,"end":4498.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4498.04534375,"end":4501.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4500.15471875,"end":4500.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4501.55534375,"end":4504.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4504.356593750001,"end":4511.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4511.59596875,"end":4511.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4511.83221875,"end":4514.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4514.41409375,"end":4516.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4516.69221875,"end":4517.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4517.50221875,"end":4524.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4519.5947187500005,"end":4520.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4524.28596875,"end":4527.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4524.319718750001,"end":4524.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4527.44159375,"end":4536.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4536.99284375,"end":4539.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4540.13159375,"end":4548.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4549.581593749999,"end":4558.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4559.03159375,"end":4559.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4559.08221875,"end":4564.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4564.75221875,"end":4569.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4569.39284375,"end":4576.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4577.25659375,"end":4587.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4587.71909375,"end":4590.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4592.46096875,"end":4596.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4597.169093750001,"end":4598.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4598.95784375,"end":4601.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4602.77159375,"end":4616.659718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4617.4022187499995,"end":4617.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4619.005343750001,"end":4620.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4620.2372187500005,"end":4622.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4623.747218750001,"end":4626.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4626.95346875,"end":4637.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4636.99409375,"end":4639.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4640.0653437500005,"end":4642.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4642.93409375,"end":4649.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4649.616593750001,"end":4650.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4650.561593750001,"end":4657.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4650.595343749999,"end":4650.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4650.966593749999,"end":4651.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4651.0340937500005,"end":4652.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4657.32846875,"end":4662.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4662.981593750001,"end":4680.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4681.071593750001,"end":4684.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4684.9697187500005,"end":4698.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4699.5497187500005,"end":4706.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4706.991593750001,"end":4711.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4711.22721875,"end":4719.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4720.28909375,"end":4725.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4725.43596875,"end":4727.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4728.15284375,"end":4728.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4728.979718750001,"end":4732.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4734.66659375,"end":4738.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4736.995343750001,"end":4742.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4739.17221875,"end":4741.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4742.985968749999,"end":4744.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4744.36971875,"end":4748.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4747.89659375,"end":4751.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4749.19596875,"end":4749.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4752.33471875,"end":4754.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4754.899718750001,"end":4756.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4757.009093750001,"end":4758.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4758.038468750001,"end":4758.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4763.4384687500005,"end":4764.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4765.345343749999,"end":4765.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4766.897843750001,"end":4775.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4777.157843749999,"end":4799.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4799.6522187499995,"end":4800.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4800.9853437500005,"end":4801.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4801.03596875,"end":4804.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4805.08596875,"end":4811.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4811.54909375,"end":4812.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4812.7303437499995,"end":4817.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4817.202218750001,"end":4821.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4821.4715937500005,"end":4821.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4821.57284375,"end":4835.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4834.212218750001,"end":4836.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4836.3553437499995,"end":4836.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4836.794093750001,"end":4837.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4837.51971875,"end":4838.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4839.645968750001,"end":4840.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4842.312218749999,"end":4847.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4842.3290937500005,"end":4843.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4847.45909375,"end":4847.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4847.577218750001,"end":4848.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4848.15096875,"end":4851.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4849.97346875,"end":4853.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4853.517218749999,"end":4859.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4860.233468750001,"end":4870.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4871.6747187500005,"end":4886.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4887.06471875,"end":4887.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4887.689093749999,"end":4891.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4891.23284375,"end":4891.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4891.57034375,"end":4895.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4895.02971875,"end":4896.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4895.2997187500005,"end":4896.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4896.58221875,"end":4900.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4901.25659375,"end":4902.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4902.6572187500005,"end":4907.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4908.25971875,"end":4934.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4934.517218749999,"end":4941.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4942.448468750001,"end":4951.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4951.442843750001,"end":4981.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4981.345343749999,"end":4988.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4988.669093750001,"end":5002.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5003.198468750001,"end":5005.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5006.16846875,"end":5012.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5012.81721875,"end":5018.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5018.87534375,"end":5021.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5022.19971875,"end":5030.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5031.278468750001,"end":5034.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5034.501593749999,"end":5041.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5041.825343750001,"end":5044.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5044.89659375,"end":5051.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5051.96721875,"end":5068.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5073.58409375,"end":5079.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5079.52409375,"end":5081.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5091.842843750001,"end":5094.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5095.36971875,"end":5096.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5096.63534375,"end":5096.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5101.27596875,"end":5102.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5103.317843750001,"end":5107.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5107.587218750001,"end":5107.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5107.97534375,"end":5114.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5115.06284375,"end":5116.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5116.42971875,"end":5118.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5118.404093749999,"end":5124.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5124.5634687500005,"end":5127.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5127.9384687500005,"end":5135.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5135.481593750001,"end":5141.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5142.24846875,"end":5143.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5144.189093749999,"end":5146.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5146.4334687499995,"end":5146.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5147.31096875,"end":5147.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5147.3447187500005,"end":5150.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5150.83784375,"end":5156.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5156.30534375,"end":5169.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5169.99096875,"end":5173.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5174.142218749999,"end":5175.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5176.352843750001,"end":5177.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5179.7615937499995,"end":5180.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5187.30471875,"end":5190.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5191.08471875,"end":5193.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5193.497843749999,"end":5196.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5197.0584687499995,"end":5197.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5197.5478437500005,"end":5219.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5209.309718750001,"end":5209.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5219.58659375,"end":5220.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5220.514718750001,"end":5225.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5225.88096875,"end":5226.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5226.43784375,"end":5226.454718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5226.5897187499995,"end":5226.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5226.67409375,"end":5228.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5226.80909375,"end":5226.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5228.3447187500005,"end":5229.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5228.91846875,"end":5231.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5231.12909375,"end":5234.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5234.36909375,"end":5234.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5234.6728437500005,"end":5234.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5234.706593750001,"end":5235.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5234.74034375,"end":5235.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5236.022843750001,"end":5240.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5241.28784375,"end":5241.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5241.33846875,"end":5244.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5244.966593749999,"end":5250.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5248.999718749999,"end":5249.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5249.91096875,"end":5255.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5256.745343750001,"end":5260.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5260.862843750001,"end":5261.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5262.465968750001,"end":5268.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5268.743468750001,"end":5269.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5269.722218750001,"end":5272.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5273.26596875,"end":5283.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5284.6903437500005,"end":5294.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5289.735968749999,"end":5291.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5295.01784375,"end":5304.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5304.7040937500005,"end":5309.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5304.788468750001,"end":5304.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5306.425343750001,"end":5307.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5309.800343750001,"end":5310.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5310.99846875,"end":5311.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5313.39471875,"end":5316.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5314.592843750001,"end":5314.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5314.997843749999,"end":5315.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5316.34784375,"end":5320.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5316.364718750001,"end":5316.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5320.38096875,"end":5332.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5324.21159375,"end":5324.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5330.657843749999,"end":5330.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5332.98659375,"end":5333.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5333.54346875,"end":5334.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5334.80909375,"end":5342.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5342.807843750001,"end":5346.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5347.09409375,"end":5347.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5347.75221875,"end":5351.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5351.58284375,"end":5356.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5356.37534375,"end":5359.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5360.2059687500005,"end":5365.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5365.4540937500005,"end":5370.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5370.66846875,"end":5371.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5372.06909375,"end":5373.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5373.33471875,"end":5375.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5375.612843750001,"end":5384.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5384.4384687500005,"end":5384.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5385.2147187499995,"end":5393.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5393.77034375,"end":5401.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5402.46096875,"end":5403.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5405.97096875,"end":5407.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5408.60346875,"end":5409.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5409.1434687500005,"end":5409.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5411.11784375,"end":5430.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5431.772843750001,"end":5440.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5440.497218750001,"end":5442.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5442.48846875,"end":5446.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5447.12909375,"end":5453.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5453.92971875,"end":5453.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5453.96346875,"end":5455.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5456.849093750001,"end":5465.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5465.72534375,"end":5468.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5469.218468749999,"end":5473.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5473.97721875,"end":5474.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5474.07846875,"end":5475.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5475.02346875,"end":5479.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5479.88346875,"end":5481.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5482.583468750001,"end":5482.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5482.9715937500005,"end":5483.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5486.26221875,"end":5491.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5488.675343750001,"end":5489.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5489.940968750001,"end":5490.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5491.03784375,"end":5498.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5499.323468750001,"end":5516.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5517.514718750001,"end":5519.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5519.32034375,"end":5528.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5528.989718750001,"end":5533.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5534.237843750001,"end":5535.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5541.07221875,"end":5541.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5541.089093750001,"end":5543.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5543.13096875,"end":5546.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5556.47909375,"end":5559.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5560.208468750001,"end":5561.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5564.68034375,"end":5565.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5565.794093750001,"end":5569.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5569.202843749999,"end":5569.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5570.18159375,"end":5570.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5570.9072187500005,"end":5571.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5570.95784375,"end":5571.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5572.020968750001,"end":5574.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5574.974093750001,"end":5580.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5580.67784375,"end":5582.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5583.44534375,"end":5588.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5588.92971875,"end":5592.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5593.09784375,"end":5594.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5595.25784375,"end":5598.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5599.13909375,"end":5600.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5600.50596875,"end":5603.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5604.38721875,"end":5608.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5608.79159375,"end":5613.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5614.1747187500005,"end":5614.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5614.765343749999,"end":5617.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5617.46534375,"end":5620.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5621.3465937500005,"end":5625.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5626.00409375,"end":5636.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5637.090968750001,"end":5638.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5638.592843750001,"end":5643.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5643.2840937500005,"end":5697.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5697.67221875,"end":5716.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5716.47096875,"end":5721.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5721.11159375,"end":5721.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5721.71909375,"end":5722.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5723.06909375,"end":5723.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5723.08596875,"end":5724.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5725.026593750001,"end":5728.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5728.874093750001,"end":5730.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5730.15659375,"end":5730.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5730.3759687500005,"end":5732.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5733.2615937499995,"end":5734.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5734.206593750001,"end":5802.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5756.7684687500005,"end":5757.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5802.71909375,"end":5825.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5825.50034375,"end":5832.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5833.60034375,"end":5844.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5845.716593749999,"end":5878.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5878.89284375,"end":5892.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5892.966593749999,"end":5895.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5895.126593750001,"end":5905.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5906.010968750001,"end":5921.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5922.02534375,"end":5929.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5929.534718750001,"end":5946.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5947.69221875,"end":5948.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5949.919718749999,"end":5954.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5954.25659375,"end":5954.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5954.67846875,"end":5970.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5971.030343750001,"end":5991.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5985.779093749999,"end":5986.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5991.887843750001,"end":6011.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6011.31096875,"end":6022.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6019.22534375,"end":6019.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6022.70159375,"end":6045.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6045.651593750001,"end":6046.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6048.90846875,"end":6050.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6051.034718750001,"end":6051.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6058.32471875,"end":6061.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6061.27784375,"end":6062.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6066.76221875,"end":6067.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6067.89284375,"end":6069.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6067.89284375,"end":6073.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6069.462218750001,"end":6070.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6072.01034375,"end":6072.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6072.39846875,"end":6072.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6073.93409375,"end":6076.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6073.967843750001,"end":6074.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6077.055968750001,"end":6080.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6080.44784375,"end":6080.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6080.7684687500005,"end":6084.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6084.61596875,"end":6084.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6084.66659375,"end":6084.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6084.784718750001,"end":6085.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6084.970343750001,"end":6085.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6086.337218750001,"end":6094.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6095.12909375,"end":6099.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6097.964093750001,"end":6098.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6100.03971875,"end":6100.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6100.74846875,"end":6103.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6103.80284375,"end":6105.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6105.76034375,"end":6106.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6105.794093750001,"end":6108.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6108.49409375,"end":6111.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6112.27409375,"end":6128.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6128.710343750001,"end":6129.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6128.845343750001,"end":6138.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6139.32471875,"end":6140.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6140.472218750001,"end":6140.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6140.55659375,"end":6140.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6140.64096875,"end":6142.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6142.9022187499995,"end":6144.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6144.927218750001,"end":6149.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6150.040343750001,"end":6151.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6151.862843750001,"end":6154.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6155.052218750001,"end":6155.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6156.182843750001,"end":6157.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6157.70159375,"end":6162.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6163.00034375,"end":6164.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6164.53596875,"end":6165.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6165.86909375,"end":6167.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6168.01221875,"end":6170.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6170.50971875,"end":6171.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6171.8934687500005,"end":6176.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6176.82096875,"end":6180.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6181.022843750001,"end":6187.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6187.958468750001,"end":6189.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6189.409718750001,"end":6189.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6189.544718749999,"end":6189.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6189.89909375,"end":6191.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6192.278468750001,"end":6193.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6193.98284375,"end":6201.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6196.817843750001,"end":6196.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6198.184718750001,"end":6198.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6198.20159375,"end":6198.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6198.43784375,"end":6198.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6198.454718750001,"end":6198.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6202.04909375,"end":6205.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6205.89659375,"end":6208.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6209.423468750001,"end":6210.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6211.27971875,"end":6211.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6212.25846875,"end":6225.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6216.20721875,"end":6216.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6226.09596875,"end":6227.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6226.33221875,"end":6230.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6228.71159375,"end":6229.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6230.044718749999,"end":6241.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6241.99221875,"end":6255.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6256.302218750001,"end":6258.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6258.86721875,"end":6263.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6263.9803437499995,"end":6271.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6271.405343750001,"end":6273.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6274.05471875,"end":6276.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6276.56909375,"end":6277.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6277.9022187499995,"end":6278.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6279.10034375,"end":6281.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6281.20971875,"end":6283.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6284.34846875,"end":6286.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6287.048468750001,"end":6288.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6289.09034375,"end":6289.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6290.052218750001,"end":6291.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6291.655343750001,"end":6295.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6295.80659375,"end":6298.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6299.198468750001,"end":6300.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6300.34596875,"end":6302.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6302.82659375,"end":6306.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6306.33659375,"end":6310.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6311.331593750001,"end":6314.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6315.3309687500005,"end":6317.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6317.27159375,"end":6318.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6319.161593750001,"end":6321.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6321.608468750001,"end":6323.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6323.5322187500005,"end":6324.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6323.59971875,"end":6324.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6324.747218750001,"end":6329.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6329.7928437499995,"end":6329.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6329.82659375,"end":6329.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6329.92784375,"end":6330.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6330.16409375,"end":6340.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6341.26784375,"end":6346.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6346.38096875,"end":6348.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6348.7772187499995,"end":6354.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6354.362843750001,"end":6355.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6354.497843749999,"end":6354.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6355.56096875,"end":6361.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6361.83846875,"end":6366.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6367.45784375,"end":6377.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6377.22846875,"end":6377.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6377.49846875,"end":6378.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6379.4559687500005,"end":6385.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6385.716593749999,"end":6387.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6387.977843750001,"end":6391.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6391.960343750001,"end":6411.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6412.14284375,"end":6417.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6418.09971875,"end":6428.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6428.54534375,"end":6430.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6429.0009687500005,"end":6429.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6429.034718750001,"end":6429.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6430.38471875,"end":6435.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6435.092843750001,"end":6438.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6436.18971875,"end":6437.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6438.16409375,"end":6450.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6444.357218749999,"end":6444.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6451.124093750001,"end":6451.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6451.22534375,"end":6451.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6451.259093750001,"end":6452.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6452.102843750001,"end":6453.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6453.317843750001,"end":6464.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6464.64096875,"end":6465.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6465.788468750001,"end":6467.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6467.72909375,"end":6478.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6472.2684687500005,"end":6472.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6472.28534375,"end":6472.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6472.724093750001,"end":6472.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6472.825343750001,"end":6472.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6478.208468750001,"end":6478.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6478.22534375,"end":6478.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6478.444718750001,"end":6479.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6479.96346875,"end":6480.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6480.452843749999,"end":6482.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6482.12346875,"end":6482.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6482.1572187500005,"end":6482.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6482.49471875,"end":6484.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6485.059718750001,"end":6489.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6489.37971875,"end":6505.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6501.61409375,"end":6501.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6501.63096875,"end":6502.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6504.11159375,"end":6506.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6506.237843750001,"end":6507.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6507.19971875,"end":6523.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6507.2840937500005,"end":6507.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6507.30096875,"end":6507.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6515.95784375,"end":6516.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6520.919093750001,"end":6521.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6523.14659375,"end":6523.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6523.450343750001,"end":6525.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6526.04909375,"end":6526.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6527.34846875,"end":6531.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6531.71909375,"end":6536.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6536.714093750001,"end":6537.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6538.030343750001,"end":6539.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6539.3465937500005,"end":6548.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6548.49284375,"end":6549.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6549.606593750001,"end":6550.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6551.007218750001,"end":6554.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6555.05721875,"end":6555.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6555.90096875,"end":6556.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6556.6434687500005,"end":6559.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6556.71096875,"end":6556.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6559.5965937500005,"end":6560.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6560.339093750001,"end":6561.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6561.11534375,"end":6563.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6563.03909375,"end":6563.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6563.325968749999,"end":6567.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6568.2197187500005,"end":6569.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6569.940968750001,"end":6569.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6569.95784375,"end":6572.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6569.97471875,"end":6570.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6573.501593750001,"end":6573.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6573.687218749999,"end":6574.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6575.27346875,"end":6576.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6589.161593750001,"end":6596.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6596.2997187500005,"end":6596.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6602.22284375,"end":6602.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6602.25659375,"end":6603.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6607.47096875,"end":6608.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6609.090968750001,"end":6609.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6609.52971875,"end":6611.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6611.757218750001,"end":6612.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6613.3603437500005,"end":6615.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6615.72284375,"end":6616.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6618.608468750001,"end":6619.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6619.75596875,"end":6623.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6627.029093749999,"end":6630.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6630.33659375,"end":6630.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6630.35346875,"end":6630.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6630.75846875,"end":6630.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6631.14659375,"end":6632.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6633.222218750001,"end":6637.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6638.470343750001,"end":6643.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6644.49471875,"end":6645.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6646.300343750001,"end":6646.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6647.700968749999,"end":6653.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6653.53971875,"end":6654.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6655.14284375,"end":6658.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6658.7372187500005,"end":6660.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6665.2509687500005,"end":6666.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6667.022843750001,"end":6671.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6672.557843750001,"end":6673.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6674.68409375,"end":6688.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6678.43034375,"end":6678.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6678.514718750001,"end":6678.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6678.58221875,"end":6679.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6680.03346875,"end":6681.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6688.33596875,"end":6690.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6690.66471875,"end":6693.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6693.58409375,"end":6694.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6695.187218749999,"end":6696.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6696.7059687500005,"end":6697.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6698.9334687499995,"end":6699.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6699.86159375,"end":6707.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6707.6747187500005,"end":6714.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6714.509093750001,"end":6719.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6715.116593750001,"end":6716.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6718.55909375,"end":6721.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6722.2040937500005,"end":6727.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6728.093468749999,"end":6731.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6730.84409375,"end":6733.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6734.30346875,"end":6737.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6738.640343749999,"end":6746.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6746.97659375,"end":6748.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6749.052218750001,"end":6750.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6750.58784375,"end":6752.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6753.557843750001,"end":6754.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6753.62534375,"end":6769.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6758.78909375,"end":6759.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6759.970343750001,"end":6760.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6760.5947187500005,"end":6760.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6770.07846875,"end":6772.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6772.94721875,"end":6773.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6774.80346875,"end":6775.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6776.946593750001,"end":6779.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6780.20346875,"end":6785.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6785.468468749999,"end":6791.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6791.69534375,"end":6794.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6794.59784375,"end":6798.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6798.52971875,"end":6803.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6799.23846875,"end":6807.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6807.67596875,"end":6808.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6808.485968750001,"end":6809.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6810.932843750001,"end":6812.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6812.670968750001,"end":6816.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6817.1259687500005,"end":6818.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6818.712218750001,"end":6819.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6820.28159375,"end":6821.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6822.407843750001,"end":6823.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6824.16284375,"end":6827.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6827.77409375,"end":6829.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6829.731593750001,"end":6831.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6832.026593750001,"end":6835.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6836.49846875,"end":6837.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6838.08471875,"end":6845.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6845.91471875,"end":6848.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6848.64846875,"end":6853.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6854.284718750001,"end":6859.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6859.397843750001,"end":6861.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6861.62534375,"end":6862.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6862.55346875,"end":6863.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6864.44346875,"end":6866.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6866.45159375,"end":6869.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6870.40034375,"end":6874.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6874.484093749999,"end":6875.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6876.087218750001,"end":6877.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6877.50471875,"end":6879.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6879.124718749999,"end":6880.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6881.6053437499995,"end":6883.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6883.5965937500005,"end":6885.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6886.17846875,"end":6888.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6889.46909375,"end":6891.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6892.23659375,"end":6894.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6894.700343750001,"end":6896.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6896.72534375,"end":6898.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6898.59846875,"end":6900.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6901.75409375,"end":6903.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6903.8465937500005,"end":6904.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6904.3865937499995,"end":6905.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6905.55096875,"end":6906.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6907.42409375,"end":6911.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6911.77784375,"end":6913.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6913.9715937500005,"end":6916.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6916.587218750001,"end":6917.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6917.97096875,"end":6925.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6926.17221875,"end":6927.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6928.61909375,"end":6934.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6932.2303437499995,"end":6935.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6934.45784375,"end":6934.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6934.66034375,"end":6934.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6936.7528437500005,"end":6944.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6944.565968750001,"end":6947.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6947.78909375,"end":6947.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6948.29534375,"end":6948.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6948.312218750001,"end":6955.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6955.97346875,"end":6957.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6959.010968750001,"end":6965.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6965.997218750001,"end":6970.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6970.33409375,"end":6976.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6977.2528437500005,"end":6978.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6978.7040937500005,"end":6980.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6981.01596875,"end":6982.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6982.247843749999,"end":6985.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6986.061593750001,"end":6995.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6995.477843750001,"end":6999.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7000.23659375,"end":7002.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7003.5947187500005,"end":7005.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7005.974093750001,"end":7009.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7009.669718749999,"end":7011.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7012.09971875,"end":7012.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7013.7197187500005,"end":7019.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7020.689093750001,"end":7023.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7026.645968750001,"end":7028.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7031.91096875,"end":7031.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7031.92784375,"end":7037.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7033.19346875,"end":7034.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7038.44159375,"end":7042.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7040.567843750001,"end":7042.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7043.571593750001,"end":7047.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7045.444718750001,"end":7048.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7048.769093750001,"end":7053.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7053.173468750001,"end":7054.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7054.94534375,"end":7056.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7059.90659375,"end":7062.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7062.80909375,"end":7063.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7063.18034375,"end":7063.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7063.33221875,"end":7063.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7063.349093750001,"end":7063.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7063.770968750001,"end":7064.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7064.142218750001,"end":7064.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7064.17596875,"end":7064.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7064.20971875,"end":7070.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7065.57659375,"end":7065.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7065.67784375,"end":7066.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7066.6903437500005,"end":7067.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7067.50034375,"end":7067.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7070.50409375,"end":7075.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7075.98846875,"end":7077.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7078.38471875,"end":7079.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7080.7978437500005,"end":7081.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7082.856593750001,"end":7082.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7082.890343750001,"end":7082.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7082.9072187500005,"end":7083.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7083.02534375,"end":7083.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7083.21096875,"end":7083.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7083.227843750001,"end":7085.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7085.6747187500005,"end":7093.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7086.417218750001,"end":7087.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7094.16284375,"end":7095.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7095.884093750001,"end":7101.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7102.583468750001,"end":7107.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7107.94971875,"end":7109.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7109.940968750001,"end":7112.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7112.522843750001,"end":7113.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7114.3622187500005,"end":7115.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7116.404093749999,"end":7118.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7119.34034375,"end":7120.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7121.247218750001,"end":7129.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7129.78596875,"end":7133.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7133.63346875,"end":7138.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7139.03346875,"end":7143.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7143.606593750001,"end":7146.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7150.812218750001,"end":7152.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7165.05471875,"end":7169.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7169.847218750001,"end":7170.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7172.59784375,"end":7175.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7176.25971875,"end":7176.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7178.53784375,"end":7179.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7179.786593750001,"end":7181.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7182.233468750001,"end":7194.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7194.19784375,"end":7198.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7198.450343750001,"end":7213.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7213.452218750001,"end":7215.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7215.983468750001,"end":7234.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7235.187218750001,"end":7277.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7277.661593750001,"end":7280.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7281.137843750001,"end":7283.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7283.50034375,"end":7284.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7284.68159375,"end":7304.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7290.8240937499995,"end":7291.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7304.69534375,"end":7305.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7305.33659375,"end":7305.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7306.36596875,"end":7313.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7313.26784375,"end":7319.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7319.849093750001,"end":7323.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7323.780968750001,"end":7324.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7324.8778437500005,"end":7340.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7340.68971875,"end":7346.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7347.11909375,"end":7353.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7350.71346875,"end":7351.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7354.69596875,"end":7355.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7355.286593750001,"end":7361.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7361.04096875,"end":7361.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7361.41221875,"end":7365.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7365.647843750001,"end":7365.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7365.66471875,"end":7372.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7365.86721875,"end":7366.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7371.081593750001,"end":7371.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7372.684718750001,"end":7383.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7383.923468750001,"end":7393.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7393.8290937500005,"end":7394.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7394.942843750001,"end":7399.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7400.0897187499995,"end":7405.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7405.60784375,"end":7412.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7412.64471875,"end":7428.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7429.013468749999,"end":7429.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7429.94159375,"end":7436.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7437.0965937500005,"end":7439.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7439.577218750001,"end":7443.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7443.8465937500005,"end":7449.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7450.09034375,"end":7451.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7451.11971875,"end":7452.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7452.80721875,"end":7463.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7463.944718750001,"end":7477.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7477.56284375,"end":7481.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7482.28784375,"end":7486.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7486.74284375,"end":7525.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7525.2684687500005,"end":7525.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7525.75784375,"end":7532.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7532.845343750001,"end":7532.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7532.8622187500005,"end":7532.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7532.91284375,"end":7533.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7539.29159375,"end":7541.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7548.184718750001,"end":7553.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7553.517218750001,"end":7554.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7558.24221875,"end":7558.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7558.7147187499995,"end":7558.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7558.731593750001,"end":7584.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7584.786593750001,"end":7604.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7604.564093750001,"end":7620.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7621.18596875,"end":7639.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7639.815968750001,"end":7640.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7641.267218750001,"end":7641.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7642.41471875,"end":7645.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7645.249718750001,"end":7671.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7671.67596875,"end":7680.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7680.2147187499995,"end":7686.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7685.057843750001,"end":7691.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7687.538468750001,"end":7687.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7689.00659375,"end":7697.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7691.95971875,"end":7692.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7697.03909375,"end":7697.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7697.22471875,"end":7697.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7697.35971875,"end":7697.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7697.5115937499995,"end":7697.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7697.849093750001,"end":7708.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7697.86596875,"end":7698.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7699.55346875,"end":7700.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7708.37909375,"end":7729.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7731.5653437500005,"end":7738.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7738.28159375,"end":7740.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7739.479718750001,"end":7740.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7740.509093750001,"end":7763.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7748.524718750001,"end":7751.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7753.587218750001,"end":7756.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7760.843468750001,"end":7765.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7765.112843750001,"end":7771.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7770.0740937499995,"end":7792.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7771.8290937500005,"end":7772.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7776.132218750001,"end":7776.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7791.269093750001,"end":7792.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7792.349093750001,"end":7796.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7793.057843750001,"end":7793.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7797.090968750001,"end":7800.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7800.972218750001,"end":7803.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7802.9803437499995,"end":7816.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7806.91221875,"end":7807.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7816.41284375,"end":7833.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7833.456593750001,"end":7833.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7833.507218750001,"end":7836.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7833.557843750001,"end":7835.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7835.5322187500005,"end":7836.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7837.08471875,"end":7847.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7847.46284375,"end":7847.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7847.513468749999,"end":7851.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7851.95159375,"end":7857.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7856.237843750001,"end":7872.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7862.144093750001,"end":7862.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7862.17784375,"end":7862.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7873.04534375,"end":7894.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7894.74659375,"end":7905.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7905.9178437499995,"end":7911.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7911.67221875,"end":7911.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7911.975968750001,"end":7914.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7914.15284375,"end":7915.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7914.557843750001,"end":7926.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7915.637843750001,"end":7918.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7926.52221875,"end":7932.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7930.2684687500005,"end":7941.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7941.405968750001,"end":7947.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7945.10159375,"end":7945.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7947.34596875,"end":7961.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7947.784718750001,"end":7947.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7962.550343750001,"end":7964.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7965.368468750001,"end":7984.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7978.42971875,"end":7979.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7983.458468750001,"end":7996.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7996.874093750001,"end":8016.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8010.89721875,"end":8011.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8011.825343750001,"end":8013.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8014.37346875,"end":8018.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8017.19159375,"end":8020.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8018.8622187500005,"end":8026.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8026.42221875,"end":8033.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8029.84784375,"end":8030.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8031.61971875,"end":8031.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8032.919093750001,"end":8033.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8033.3915937500005,"end":8033.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8033.40846875,"end":8033.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8033.96534375,"end":8034.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8037.25596875,"end":8041.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8041.45784375,"end":8041.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8042.622218750001,"end":8047.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8063.985968750001,"end":8067.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8068.170968750001,"end":8069.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8073.4022187499995,"end":8085.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8085.95721875,"end":8086.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8087.239718750001,"end":8092.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8093.58471875,"end":8097.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8097.90471875,"end":8103.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8104.18221875,"end":8105.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8106.359093750001,"end":8107.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8107.97909375,"end":8109.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8110.493468750001,"end":8111.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8111.69159375,"end":8114.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8114.340968750001,"end":8115.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8117.07471875,"end":8120.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8120.63534375,"end":8123.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8123.4872187500005,"end":8125.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8126.288468750001,"end":8127.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8129.005343750001,"end":8131.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8132.717843750001,"end":8133.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8133.932843750001,"end":8134.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8135.654093750001,"end":8136.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8137.864718750001,"end":8139.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8140.14284375,"end":8141.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8141.475968750001,"end":8142.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8143.720343750001,"end":8146.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8146.960343750001,"end":8149.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8150.72346875,"end":8151.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8152.09034375,"end":8154.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8155.88721875,"end":8157.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8159.73471875,"end":8163.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8165.69159375,"end":8165.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8165.7928437499995,"end":8166.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8165.8603437500005,"end":8165.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8165.87721875,"end":8165.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8165.894093750001,"end":8165.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8167.311593750001,"end":8168.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8168.999093750001,"end":8169.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8169.8934687500005,"end":8178.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8172.76221875,"end":8173.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8182.51596875,"end":8183.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8184.38909375,"end":8185.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8186.54909375,"end":8196.977843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8197.19721875,"end":8197.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8197.230968750002,"end":8197.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8197.281593750002,"end":8197.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8197.51784375,"end":8201.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8201.972843750002,"end":8202.040343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8202.124718750001,"end":8204.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8204.79096875,"end":8205.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8206.360343750002,"end":8208.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8208.55409375,"end":8209.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8210.039093750001,"end":8212.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8213.29596875,"end":8217.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8218.071593749999,"end":8226.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8221.61534375,"end":8222.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8227.656593750002,"end":8229.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8230.06971875,"end":8231.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8232.094718750002,"end":8232.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8233.309718750003,"end":8234.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8235.149093750002,"end":8237.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8238.524093750002,"end":8239.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8240.19471875,"end":8241.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8241.46034375,"end":8242.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8243.28284375,"end":8243.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8243.907218750002,"end":8244.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8245.105343750001,"end":8246.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8247.332843750002,"end":8248.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8249.94846875,"end":8250.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8251.433468750001,"end":8252.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8252.445968750002,"end":8254.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8255.500343750002,"end":8258.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8259.01034375,"end":8259.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8260.63034375,"end":8262.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8263.44846875,"end":8265.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8265.91221875,"end":8266.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8267.70096875,"end":8268.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8269.77659375,"end":8270.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8270.45159375,"end":8272.493468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8273.050343750001,"end":8276.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8277.79221875,"end":8279.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8280.94784375,"end":8281.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8282.63534375,"end":8284.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8284.89659375,"end":8285.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8286.16221875,"end":8288.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8288.558468750001,"end":8292.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8292.96284375,"end":8302.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8303.965343750002,"end":8304.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8305.24784375,"end":8307.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8308.21784375,"end":8310.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8311.17096875,"end":8313.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8314.27596875,"end":8314.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8314.96784375,"end":8316.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8317.313468750002,"end":8321.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8317.364093750002,"end":8317.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8317.617218750001,"end":8317.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8321.38034375,"end":8324.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8324.97471875,"end":8324.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8325.46409375,"end":8328.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8329.429718750001,"end":8330.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8331.437843750002,"end":8336.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8337.394718750002,"end":8339.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8340.550343750001,"end":8340.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8341.20846875,"end":8343.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8343.80721875,"end":8345.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8346.27096875,"end":8349.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8350.43909375,"end":8354.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8354.539718750002,"end":8356.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8356.800968750002,"end":8357.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8358.10034375,"end":8360.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8360.496593750002,"end":8361.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8361.660968750002,"end":8362.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8363.129093750002,"end":8363.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8364.36096875,"end":8366.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8367.145343750002,"end":8368.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8369.05221875,"end":8374.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8375.734718750002,"end":8376.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8377.72596875,"end":8377.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8378.08034375,"end":8380.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8381.28659375,"end":8383.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8381.387843750003,"end":8392.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8388.509093750003,"end":8389.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8391.816593750002,"end":8394.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8395.309718750003,"end":8396.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8396.76096875,"end":8405.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8405.805968750003,"end":8409.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8410.36221875,"end":8412.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8412.910343750002,"end":8413.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8414.00721875,"end":8419.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8419.54221875,"end":8431.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8420.89221875,"end":8420.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8421.094718750002,"end":8421.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8426.86596875,"end":8428.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8428.97534375,"end":8431.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8431.82721875,"end":8439.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8439.134093750003,"end":8440.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8441.56409375,"end":8444.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8441.648468750001,"end":8442.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8444.48346875,"end":8447.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8448.195968750002,"end":8448.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8451.570968750002,"end":8453.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8462.40471875,"end":8468.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8466.45471875,"end":8467.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8468.800343750001,"end":8469.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8472.63096875,"end":8473.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8473.10346875,"end":8473.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8473.12034375,"end":8473.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8473.727843750003,"end":8477.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8477.42346875,"end":8477.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8478.419093750003,"end":8481.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8481.92909375,"end":8484.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8485.050968750002,"end":8488.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8488.797218750002,"end":8498.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8501.723468750002,"end":8510.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8511.07221875,"end":8514.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8515.206593750001,"end":8516.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8517.332843750002,"end":8530.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8530.20846875,"end":8545.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8545.81784375,"end":8557.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8557.49534375,"end":8558.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8558.035343750002,"end":8558.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8558.187218750001,"end":8558.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8558.22096875,"end":8558.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8558.727218750002,"end":8558.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8559.13221875,"end":8560.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8561.106593750003,"end":8566.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8566.38846875,"end":8569.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8569.476593750001,"end":8572.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8572.598468750002,"end":8575.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8575.450343750003,"end":8594.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8594.02971875,"end":8598.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8598.41721875,"end":8598.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8599.159718750001,"end":8599.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8599.19346875,"end":8599.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8599.36221875,"end":8600.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8599.81784375,"end":8600.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8600.94846875,"end":8600.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8600.965343750002,"end":8600.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8600.98221875,"end":8601.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8601.066593750002,"end":8601.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8601.285968750002,"end":8601.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8601.31971875,"end":8601.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8601.87659375,"end":8603.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8604.087218750003,"end":8619.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8608.829093750002,"end":8608.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8609.200343750003,"end":8609.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8619.98346875,"end":8639.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8639.102843750003,"end":8673.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8673.49409375,"end":8691.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8691.65159375,"end":8693.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8693.946593750003,"end":8695.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8695.75221875,"end":8702.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8699.852843750003,"end":8704.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8703.39659375,"end":8703.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8704.29096875,"end":8704.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8704.35846875,"end":8705.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8704.44284375,"end":8704.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8705.62409375,"end":8707.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8707.93596875,"end":8713.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8713.20096875,"end":8715.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8713.99409375,"end":8714.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8715.78284375,"end":8716.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8716.22159375,"end":8718.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8717.09909375,"end":8717.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8718.28034375,"end":8718.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8718.972218750001,"end":8719.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8719.22534375,"end":8720.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8720.71034375,"end":8720.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8720.828468750002,"end":8721.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8720.86221875,"end":8720.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8721.53721875,"end":8732.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8732.894093750001,"end":8733.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8733.09659375,"end":8735.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8734.66596875,"end":8734.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8734.68284375,"end":8735.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8735.374718750001,"end":8747.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8747.035343750002,"end":8752.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8752.60409375,"end":8755.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8755.371593750002,"end":8761.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8761.497218750003,"end":8764.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8761.902218750001,"end":8765.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8764.61909375,"end":8768.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8766.94784375,"end":8766.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8767.57221875,"end":8774.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8768.88846875,"end":8769.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8770.879718750002,"end":8772.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8773.613468750002,"end":8775.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8775.38534375,"end":8775.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8775.402218750001,"end":8783.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8775.90846875,"end":8777.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8777.730968750002,"end":8777.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8779.06409375,"end":8779.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8779.08096875,"end":8779.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8780.363468750002,"end":8780.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8783.586593750002,"end":8786.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8787.164093750001,"end":8788.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8788.581593750001,"end":8797.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8797.390343750001,"end":8799.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8799.398468750001,"end":8799.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8799.415343750003,"end":8799.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8799.48284375,"end":8814.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8800.765343750001,"end":8801.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8811.46409375,"end":8812.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8814.50159375,"end":8814.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8814.687218750001,"end":8814.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8814.737843750001,"end":8814.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8814.97409375,"end":8822.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8820.05346875,"end":8820.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8822.972843750002,"end":8832.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8828.828468750002,"end":8828.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8828.946593750003,"end":8828.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8828.96346875,"end":8829.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8829.53721875,"end":8829.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8829.570968750002,"end":8829.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8830.887218750002,"end":8830.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8830.90409375,"end":8831.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8834.17784375,"end":8860.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8861.39721875,"end":8875.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8876.348468750002,"end":8892.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8885.899718750003,"end":8886.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8892.41346875,"end":8897.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8897.965343750002,"end":8915.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8915.66721875,"end":8916.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8917.320968750002,"end":8932.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8925.57284375,"end":8925.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8925.589718750001,"end":8925.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8929.96034375,"end":8930.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8932.96409375,"end":8934.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8938.48221875,"end":8938.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8938.97159375,"end":8942.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8952.910343750002,"end":8955.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8955.964718750001,"end":8957.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8961.68534375,"end":8961.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8961.719093750002,"end":8962.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8968.60409375,"end":8971.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8971.523468750001,"end":8975.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8976.13034375,"end":8981.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8982.88034375,"end":8994.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8994.372218750003,"end":9001.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9001.628468750001,"end":9015.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9016.15784375,"end":9017.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9017.81159375,"end":9019.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9020.258468750002,"end":9030.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9030.67034375,"end":9033.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9033.50534375,"end":9035.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9035.547218750002,"end":9041.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9041.655968750001,"end":9042.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9042.38159375,"end":9043.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9043.49534375,"end":9043.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9044.54159375,"end":9045.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9048.827843750001,"end":9051.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9053.468468750001,"end":9058.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9058.227218750002,"end":9058.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9058.93596875,"end":9061.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9062.05784375,"end":9065.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9065.972843750002,"end":9067.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9066.64784375,"end":9067.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9067.59284375,"end":9069.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9068.21721875,"end":9068.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9068.79096875,"end":9070.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9070.02284375,"end":9072.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9072.621593750002,"end":9072.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9072.992843750002,"end":9073.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9073.43159375,"end":9074.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9074.528468750003,"end":9076.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9077.39721875,"end":9080.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9080.940968750001,"end":9082.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9082.949093750001,"end":9083.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9084.14721875,"end":9090.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9084.50159375,"end":9084.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9090.77909375,"end":9092.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9092.550968750002,"end":9094.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9094.25534375,"end":9094.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9095.06534375,"end":9116.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9100.54971875,"end":9102.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9116.68221875,"end":9118.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9118.63971875,"end":9119.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9120.05721875,"end":9121.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9121.79534375,"end":9121.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9121.99784375,"end":9122.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9122.031593750002,"end":9122.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9122.402843750002,"end":9123.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9122.47034375,"end":9126.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9127.718468750001,"end":9131.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9131.34659375,"end":9138.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9139.649093750002,"end":9160.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9161.19846875,"end":9164.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9165.164093750001,"end":9168.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9168.42096875,"end":9172.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9172.335968750001,"end":9181.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9181.937843750002,"end":9186.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9187.01721875,"end":9187.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9188.046593750001,"end":9189.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9189.83534375,"end":9197.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9197.83409375,"end":9199.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9199.808468750001,"end":9210.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9210.54096875,"end":9212.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9212.70096875,"end":9212.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9213.66284375,"end":9215.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9215.99159375,"end":9220.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9221.374718750001,"end":9221.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9221.644718750002,"end":9223.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9224.19284375,"end":9225.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9226.065968750001,"end":9227.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9227.972843750002,"end":9229.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9230.06534375,"end":9235.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9235.39784375,"end":9236.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9236.22471875,"end":9238.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9238.418468750002,"end":9240.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9241.40534375,"end":9242.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9243.160343750002,"end":9247.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9248.425343750001,"end":9253.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9254.11221875,"end":9255.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9256.22159375,"end":9262.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9263.460968750001,"end":9266.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9267.578468750002,"end":9275.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9275.864093750002,"end":9279.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9279.188468750002,"end":9283.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9283.440968750001,"end":9283.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9284.36909375,"end":9288.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9289.16159375,"end":9302.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9303.40409375,"end":9304.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9307.352843750003,"end":9315.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9322.87784375,"end":9326.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9326.72534375,"end":9332.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9332.78346875,"end":9334.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9338.504093750002,"end":9351.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9351.98721875,"end":9356.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9357.539093750001,"end":9362.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9363.00659375,"end":9381.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9382.379093750002,"end":9389.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9390.25971875,"end":9425.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9425.899718750003,"end":9443.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9444.27659375,"end":9446.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9447.769718750002,"end":9451.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9452.37659375,"end":9453.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9453.86159375,"end":9456.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9457.118468750003,"end":9457.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9458.28284375,"end":9461.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9462.36659375,"end":9464.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9462.805343750002,"end":9465.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9466.028468750003,"end":9468.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9469.082843750002,"end":9471.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9472.035968750002,"end":9472.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9472.20471875,"end":9522.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9523.656593750002,"end":9527.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9528.094718750002,"end":9530.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9531.199718750002,"end":9536.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9533.511593750001,"end":9533.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9533.54534375,"end":9533.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9536.97096875,"end":9556.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9556.410968750002,"end":9559.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9559.313468750002,"end":9574.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9574.433468750001,"end":9581.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9582.297218750002,"end":9598.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9599.45909375,"end":9624.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9625.109093750001,"end":9632.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9633.27659375,"end":9633.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9634.17096875,"end":9645.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9644.430968750003,"end":9654.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9645.359093750001,"end":9645.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9655.011593750001,"end":9655.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9656.04096875,"end":9662.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9663.837218750003,"end":9669.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9670.047218750002,"end":9673.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9674.164718750002,"end":9675.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9675.71721875,"end":9700.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9700.18596875,"end":9718.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9718.815968750001,"end":9727.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9728.28284375,"end":9755.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9758.590343750002,"end":9760.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9761.374718750001,"end":9765.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9766.605968750002,"end":9781.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9781.962218750003,"end":9795.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9795.597218750001,"end":9813.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9814.530968750001,"end":9819.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9819.47534375,"end":9823.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9823.12034375,"end":9826.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9823.49159375,"end":9824.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9825.75284375,"end":9833.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9833.19471875,"end":9834.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9833.633468750002,"end":9839.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9834.91596875,"end":9834.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9834.96659375,"end":9834.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9839.82659375,"end":9840.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9840.34971875,"end":9844.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9844.855343750001,"end":9850.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9851.21721875,"end":9857.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9857.54534375,"end":9892.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9893.50596875,"end":9894.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9894.585968750001,"end":9900.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9900.40784375,"end":9900.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9900.441593750002,"end":9900.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9904.27221875,"end":9911.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9911.933468750001,"end":9915.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9915.19034375,"end":9916.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9923.492843750002,"end":9924.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9924.606593750003,"end":9925.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9925.551593750002,"end":9926.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9926.31096875,"end":9926.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9928.605968750002,"end":9929.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9932.41971875,"end":9933.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9934.259093750003,"end":9975.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9975.24846875,"end":10026.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10027.206593750001,"end":10030.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10030.919093750003,"end":10033.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10034.05784375,"end":10037.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10038.074093750001,"end":10038.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10039.187843750002,"end":10042.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10042.22534375,"end":10054.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10054.999718750001,"end":10059.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10059.184718750003,"end":10061.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10061.395343750002,"end":10063.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10063.926593750002,"end":10069.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10069.512218750002,"end":10071.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10071.419093750003,"end":10074.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10074.355343750001,"end":10076.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10077.207218750002,"end":10081.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10081.61159375,"end":10084.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10084.919093750003,"end":10091.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10089.88034375,"end":10090.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10090.926593750002,"end":10090.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10091.04471875,"end":10096.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10095.21284375,"end":10105.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10097.676593750002,"end":10099.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10102.23284375,"end":10102.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10102.317218750002,"end":10102.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10106.012843750003,"end":10116.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10116.812843750002,"end":10123.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10122.044093750003,"end":10124.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10124.33909375,"end":10126.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10126.836593750002,"end":10174.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10136.28659375,"end":10136.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10173.462218750003,"end":10173.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10174.74471875,"end":10178.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10178.69346875,"end":10196.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10197.15471875,"end":10199.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10200.73221875,"end":10200.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10200.74909375,"end":10201.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10204.394093750001,"end":10205.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10205.74409375,"end":10210.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10208.933468750001,"end":10209.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10210.199093750001,"end":10222.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10211.70096875,"end":10211.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10221.82596875,"end":10224.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10223.648468750001,"end":10230.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10230.11159375,"end":10231.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10230.195968750002,"end":10230.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10231.91721875,"end":10234.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10235.528468750003,"end":10236.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10237.047218750002,"end":10242.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10242.46409375,"end":10245.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10245.50159375,"end":10250.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10250.226593750001,"end":10252.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10252.31909375,"end":10252.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10252.977218750002,"end":10257.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10255.761593750001,"end":10280.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10260.95909375,"end":10261.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10267.48971875,"end":10267.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10270.797218750002,"end":10271.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10272.94034375,"end":10273.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10273.024718750003,"end":10273.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10274.020343750002,"end":10274.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10275.10034375,"end":10275.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10280.669093750003,"end":10294.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10280.702843750001,"end":10281.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10281.614093750002,"end":10281.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10295.33346875,"end":10297.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10298.910968750002,"end":10300.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10300.024718750003,"end":10300.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10300.21034375,"end":10300.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10300.227218750002,"end":10300.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10301.10471875,"end":10309.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10309.54221875,"end":10315.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10313.71034375,"end":10314.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10315.347218750001,"end":10316.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10316.258468750002,"end":10324.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10324.476593750001,"end":10325.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10324.86471875,"end":10359.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10360.31909375,"end":10367.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10367.575343750003,"end":10367.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10367.79471875,"end":10375.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10367.81159375,"end":10368.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10371.473468750002,"end":10371.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10372.637843750003,"end":10373.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10373.34659375,"end":10373.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10373.785343750002,"end":10374.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10374.64596875,"end":10375.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10375.40534375,"end":10375.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10375.50659375,"end":10375.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10375.75971875,"end":10375.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10375.793468750002,"end":10375.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10375.844093750002,"end":10375.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10375.92846875,"end":10375.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10375.945343750001,"end":10376.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10379.57346875,"end":10383.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10394.37284375,"end":10398.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10399.08096875,"end":10400.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10400.785343750002,"end":10402.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10401.156593750002,"end":10402.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10402.219718750002,"end":10402.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10404.34596875,"end":10406.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10412.125343750002,"end":10412.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10412.73284375,"end":10413.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10413.32346875,"end":10418.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10418.504093750002,"end":10419.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10419.567218750002,"end":10423.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10423.988468750002,"end":10430.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10430.82284375,"end":10465.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10465.66971875,"end":10492.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10492.129718750002,"end":10504.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10505.207843750002,"end":10529.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10529.64284375,"end":10533.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10534.13159375,"end":10535.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10535.380343750003,"end":10539.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10540.39221875,"end":10545.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10545.62346875,"end":10547.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10548.05346875,"end":10549.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10549.656593750002,"end":10552.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10552.761593750001,"end":10553.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10553.942843750003,"end":10555.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10556.052218750003,"end":10558.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10559.039093750001,"end":10561.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10561.722218750001,"end":10563.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10564.050968750002,"end":10566.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10567.425968750002,"end":10567.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10568.640968750002,"end":10569.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10570.04159375,"end":10573.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10574.20971875,"end":10577.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10577.80409375,"end":10582.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10583.507843750001,"end":10584.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10584.469718750002,"end":10592.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10592.519093750001,"end":10593.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10593.24471875,"end":10594.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10595.03346875,"end":10595.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10596.41721875,"end":10597.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10597.969718750002,"end":10599.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10600.079093750002,"end":10601.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10601.68221875,"end":10602.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10602.593468750001,"end":10602.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10603.302218750003,"end":10604.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10604.989718750003,"end":10606.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10606.761593750001,"end":10615.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10607.824718750002,"end":10609.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10609.79909375,"end":10611.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10615.77284375,"end":10619.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10620.734093750001,"end":10622.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10623.14721875,"end":10626.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10626.336593750002,"end":10627.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10628.243468750003,"end":10629.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10630.133468750002,"end":10634.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10635.68534375,"end":10637.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10638.38534375,"end":10638.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10639.245968750001,"end":10646.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10646.755343750003,"end":10648.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10648.847843750002,"end":10653.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10654.04534375,"end":10655.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10655.175968750002,"end":10677.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10664.609093750001,"end":10664.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10664.86221875,"end":10664.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10669.65471875,"end":10669.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10669.671593750001,"end":10669.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10670.009093750003,"end":10670.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10672.55721875,"end":10672.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10672.590968750003,"end":10672.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10676.843468750001,"end":10677.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10677.88971875,"end":10678.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10681.99034375,"end":10683.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10696.43534375,"end":10703.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10703.72534375,"end":10705.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10705.09221875,"end":10705.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10705.109093750001,"end":10705.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10705.547843750002,"end":10706.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10707.606593750003,"end":10709.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10711.032218750002,"end":10711.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10712.16284375,"end":10715.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10713.242843750002,"end":10713.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10717.090343750002,"end":10719.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10718.035343750002,"end":10719.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10719.63846875,"end":10720.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10719.942218750002,"end":10720.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10723.03034375,"end":10723.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10723.418468750002,"end":10723.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10724.144093750001,"end":10724.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10724.75159375,"end":10749.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10749.55784375,"end":10758.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10758.974093750003,"end":10769.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10769.706593750001,"end":10815.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10815.72471875,"end":10820.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10818.070343750001,"end":10818.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10821.00659375,"end":10822.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10821.79971875,"end":10822.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10822.559093750002,"end":10836.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10836.51471875,"end":10839.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10839.906593750002,"end":10845.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10839.99096875,"end":10840.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10845.711593750002,"end":10847.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10846.47096875,"end":10848.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10848.816593750002,"end":10852.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10852.37721875,"end":10898.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10898.445968750002,"end":10911.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10900.58909375,"end":10900.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10911.473468750002,"end":10915.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10915.523468750001,"end":10915.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10915.55721875,"end":10915.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10915.60784375,"end":10915.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10915.742843750002,"end":10915.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10915.75971875,"end":10915.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10915.962218750003,"end":10921.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10921.159718750001,"end":10922.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10923.35346875,"end":10923.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10923.960968750001,"end":10944.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10937.157218750002,"end":10937.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10944.531593750002,"end":10948.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10948.46346875,"end":10964.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10964.17409375,"end":10987.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10987.54596875,"end":11006.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11007.492218750001,"end":11029.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11024.738468750002,"end":11024.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11024.97471875,"end":11025.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11026.172843750002,"end":11026.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11030.239718750003,"end":11030.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11031.437843750002,"end":11040.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11040.989093750002,"end":11044.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11045.511593750001,"end":11050.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11050.77659375,"end":11055.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11055.687218750001,"end":11060.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11061.10409375,"end":11063.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11064.141593750002,"end":11064.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11064.293468750002,"end":11071.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11064.31034375,"end":11064.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11071.515968750002,"end":11095.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11095.782218750002,"end":11102.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11100.92909375,"end":11101.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11101.03034375,"end":11101.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11104.30409375,"end":11121.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11104.38846875,"end":11104.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11122.00596875,"end":11142.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11141.73284375,"end":11159.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11158.590968750003,"end":11177.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11176.259093750003,"end":11189.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11182.06409375,"end":11182.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11189.640968750002,"end":11192.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11191.68284375,"end":11192.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11196.35721875,"end":11218.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11219.273468750001,"end":11225.550968750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1843.097,"end":1870.148,"text":"好請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員11人已足法定人數好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會及內政委員會第14次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年4月30日星期三上午9時4分至9時49分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員麥玉珍委員等13人另席委員林德福委員等13人請假委員張志倫委員1人"},{"start":1871.668,"end":1892.986,"text":"列席官员内政部政务次长马世元及相关人员农业部综合规划司副司长韩宝珠及相关人员环境部化学物质管理署副署长陈淑玲经济部产业园区管理局副局长曾处分法务部参事廖江县核能安全委员会主任秘书王崇德及相关人员主席张钊及委员洪璐报告事项宣读上次会议议事录决定确定"},{"start":1893.386,"end":1908.805,"text":"讨论事项继续审查灾害防救法修正草案祭祀案决议一第三条赵委员赖瑞龙等16人及委员谢一凤等17人提案通过二第19条不予修正维持现行法条文三第22条赵委员丁学忠等16人提案通过"},{"start":1908.985,"end":1911.927,"text":"好 請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有 好 那議事錄確定那我們繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀"},{"start":1940.362,"end":1968.074,"text":"审查委员陈冠廷等21人拟据国家安全法第二条及第七条条文修正草案审查委员沈伯扬等17人拟据国家安全法第13条及第13条之一条文修正草案审查委员陈冠廷等23人拟据国家安全法第四条及第八条条文修正草案审查委员邱志伟等16人拟据国家安全法第三条条文修正草案审查委员沈伯扬等20人委员王定理等16人分别拟据国家安全法第二条及第七条条文修正草案"},{"start":1968.656,"end":1994.943,"text":"審查委員陳伯陽等20人擬具國家安全法第三條第八條及第十八條條文修正草案審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案審查委員黃婕等16人擬具國家安全法第二條第三條及第七條條文修正草案宣讀完畢好本日議程所列討論事項合併詢答先來介紹在場委員及列席官員我們黃婕委員"},{"start":1998.543,"end":2018.868,"text":"蘇巧惠委員沈伯陽委員陸委會副主任委員梁文傑法務部政務次長黃士傑現在請提案委員說明提案要職黃婕委員"},{"start":2031.811,"end":2056.708,"text":"好謝謝主席還有在場所有委員所有官員大家早安那今天提這個國安法其實是有非常重要的原因是因為其實大家知道說2020年到現在共諜已經起訴了159位那去年起訴的是64位其實是2020年的三倍之多所以代表說正視這個國安的漏洞有其必要"},{"start":2057.008,"end":2081.332,"text":"那我也認為說國安法現在有非常多需要補起來的地方那所以在我的修正版本裡面有兩個重點第一個是現行法的漏洞應該要處罰這個發展組織的預備行為大家可以看到國安法的第二條目前只有禁止替中共或是境外敵對勢力發展組織但是有很多的滲透行為在正式發展組織之前就已經開始了"},{"start":2081.892,"end":2099.718,"text":"包括說他們在開會他們連署甚至是有一些公開的聲明等等我認為這些預備行為都已經對國安造成實質的威脅所以我認為在第二條裡面應該要加上明定任何人不得藉由聲明會議連署或是其他的形式替敵對境外勢力來發展這個組織"},{"start":2103.739,"end":2133.179,"text":"另外一个是国家核心关键技术的部分我认为应该要强化这个保护不能留下任何的破口现在的第三条里面保护的是国家核心关键技术的营业秘密我认为有一个问题是说如果某一项关键技术因为有人没有做好保密的措施导致不符合目前的营业秘密法的定义所以即便是被敌对势力窃取了也没有办法依照国安法来处罚"},{"start":2133.559,"end":2148.633,"text":"那我認為這個不是很合理所以保護國家的核心技術應該是台灣現在非常關鍵的一件事情因為大家也知道台灣的所有的關鍵技術在國際上的定位還有現在對於台灣的國家安全有多麼的重要"},{"start":2149.574,"end":2168.644,"text":"所以我認為不應該取決是擁有者是不是做好保密那我也主張要修正第三條把知營業秘密刪掉讓法律可以直接保護經公告的國家核心關鍵技術本身來保護這個應該會被漏掉的部分那以上是我的提案說明 謝謝好 請沈博洋委員"},{"start":2184.606,"end":2208.352,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我快速做一個提案說明今天我這邊有三個不同的法案但是其實在整個這一個所謂的國家安全保護機制裡面其實有很多的層次那很多是在去年再提出了所以我今天只說明是就今天被排案的部分那第一個就是說我們在對於這個國家安全的保護第一個是很需要 如果是公務人員的話 那需要一些忠誠的考核"},{"start":2208.832,"end":2236.893,"text":"然後再來就是需要一些透明跟揭露的機制然後以及事後的處罰那目前來講以經濟安全為例我在這一個簡報上面放的就是說在日本他們盤點所有的這種跟經濟安全有關竊取技術有關的所有的態樣那這些態樣有一些是我們現行法已經能夠事後處罰規能夠已經規範的到有一些是規範不到那裡面非常重要的裡面就是我特別指出來就是第四個這個留學生研究者的交流"},{"start":2237.513,"end":2261.203,"text":"倒數第三個這個所謂的商業間諜還有最後面的這個不公平的貿易行為這幾個是目前規範比較不足的地方那這個貿易的部分是在另外一個方案我這邊不多做說明那這邊在留學生跟這個所謂的商業間諜裡面在日本裡面目前中國在那邊竊取技術或者做這一個間諜行為最常見的都是透過中間人那這個跟我們在國防外交裡面去審這個所謂的這個"},{"start":2264.601,"end":2288.722,"text":"軍官裡面的這個所謂的滲透很多都是透過退役的軍官其實有異曲同工之妙所以在這邊我們我在國安法這個第二條跟第三條都做了一個相對應的規定就是把這個中間人就是在中間這個做仲介的這一個把他納入到法律的規範那裡面的這一個因為我們是用反滲透法上面的文字那反滲透法的文字本來就有點繞口所以"},{"start":2289.582,"end":2314.299,"text":"針對這一個文字到底應該做什麼修正尊重這一個行政機關的意見那另外呢還要特別說明的就是說因為我們可能很多會想到就是說這是不是原本用共犯的方式就可以處理那其實這是一個權宜之計因為我們目前來講對於這一個所謂的這些行為所規範的這一個態樣種類太少了那種類太少了就會像剛剛黃婕委員提到的有些根本就處罰不到"},{"start":2314.739,"end":2332.098,"text":"那處罰不到的話就會形成一個詭異的問題就是你沒有正犯就沒有共犯所以我們希望藉由這樣的一個暫時的修法的方式至少能夠讓中間人能夠納入到規範裡面就跟反生龍法有點類似那再來接下來的一個就是說呢剛剛講的這個事後的部分因為"},{"start":2332.738,"end":2356.308,"text":"除了這個處罰以外很多有時候呢就尤其是不管是我們的公務員啊軍官等等之類的他們會有一些退休縫那我們除了原來的刑罰之外是不是要針對這個行政的部分就他們的這一個退休縫來去給予減免或者說讓他喪失請領的權利這個部分是我們現行法本來就已經有的規定那目前來講呢我們是把這一個"},{"start":2357.468,"end":2374.706,"text":"喪失勤領權力希望他能夠把反滲透法訂進去因為當時這一個的原因就是因為說這些人已經違反了國家的安全所以呢我們希望他這個喪失勤領的權力但因為我們訂了反滲透法就是為了國家安全但當時沒有相對應的把反滲透法訂到這一邊"},{"start":2375.426,"end":2399.554,"text":"所以這邊把反受到法加進來這是第一個那第二個呢我覺得比較重要的地方就是說這個法務部呢在這邊有特別提到說這有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題那裡面有特別提到這個因為我們在寫的時候是參佐公務人員退休這個之前撫恤法跟政務人員退職撫恤條例第13條所以呢如果說原來這個部分可能有些比例原則的問題的話我在想說"},{"start":2400.174,"end":2427.32,"text":"是不是到之後我們在等院版的時候是把公務人員退休之前跟這個政務人員退服的條例的相關的規定也來一併做修正那這樣的話呢就可以比較符合比例原則的一個考量那最後一個我要提到的就是說呢中間這一個部分就是剝奪或減少因為我們目前法律上的一個設計就是要嘛就是喪失嘛那有時候部分可能會停止那中間這一個剝奪跟減少呢通常來講呢就是針對這個刑度比較輕的部分或者"},{"start":2427.78,"end":2438.594,"text":"兩岸條例九之三的規定就是說減少的部分但是因為現在統戰的太陽實在太多了很難就被這中間三樣所涵蓋所以是不是應該把這些有損軍運或妨礙國家尊嚴的行為把它納入讓它能夠比較擴張剝奪或減少退出機遇那這樣的一個"},{"start":2446.26,"end":2465.246,"text":"那這樣的一個方式呢就也能夠比較符合像剛剛在這個法務部的報告裡面說比例原則的問題如果我們能夠把剝奪或減少退出給予的部分做一個增加那或許在喪失勤領權利這個部分就可以稍微做一個調整那就更可以符合比例原則好 那我這邊提案說明說明到這邊 謝謝好 那個請陳冠余委員"},{"start":2487.578,"end":2503.596,"text":"那我們這邊來說明一下我們這些國家安全部分的修正草案的提案說明最近從這一年來收到媒體注目的共諜案共達18案還在增加當中平均每一個月就會有一個共諜案見報"},{"start":2504.617,"end":2531.755,"text":"那这些的共谍案件已经不限于军人不限于退伍军人那甚至包含说总统府立法院军警县等等都有这样子相关的渗透所以我们对于国家安全的这些查核制度还有这些国家机密的保护我们必须要进行全面性的反制包含要针对中国的敌对的这个势力在自动安全的侵害那所以我们提案说明里面的国家安全法第二条及第七条的这一个"},{"start":2532.895,"end":2552.425,"text":"條文的修正草案我們是希望說這個過去強化國家安全法對於保護國家安全的公共利益的能力從保護範圍從公務上的機密文書圖像影像消息物品或電子紀錄擴展到涉及國家安全或者是公共利益上保密的這些文書圖畫"},{"start":2553.746,"end":2571.202,"text":"影像消息物品或電視記錄那也要把他的行則相應的來提高那從公務上擴展到涉及國家安全或公共利益就應該要列入保護那更全面更明確的覆蓋各個可能危害國家安全的行為那我們認為這是有助於國家安全的防範"},{"start":2571.963,"end":2590.4,"text":"那再來就是國家安全法第四條第八條的修正草案那這個我們把國人免受包含中國香港澳門或者是其他境外勢力控制的資通安全的產品侵害那我們主張主管機關應該建立資通安全定期評估機制還要提出限制"},{"start":2590.9,"end":2617.924,"text":"建議清單限制建議清單來去避免境外的敵對勢力透過控制的資通安全產品來去影響國人或者是竊取個人的資訊那再來就是國家安全法申訂的這個我們主張的第19條之一的修正草案那根據法務部的統計從2016年到2023年8月這個期間許多我黨國家安全案件法院對相關的這些犯罪者的"},{"start":2618.484,"end":2646.204,"text":"平均刑度他們判的大概是六個多月六個多月那對國家安全的影響之大但是刑度之輕我想這個應該是不符合比例原則所以我們是希望說這種判例不要讓共諜認為有恃無恐這對國家安全的維護相當不利因此違反國家安全法之國安要案件我們是希望由國安專業知識的法官在國家安全專業的法庭中審理那"},{"start":2646.604,"end":2669.504,"text":"我們剛才講的這些法官每年也要接受一定時數的國家安全相關專業的在職研習那這個原因是因為我們必須要知道現在中共共諜來深入我國政府的各種的樣態手法讓法官們能夠了解這些樣態之後對於他們作為這個刑度的參考那我想可能會有更多的幫助那以上 謝謝"},{"start":2675.353,"end":2700.865,"text":"好那我們現在請大陸委員會我們兩副主委文捷報告主席各位委員大家好陸委會就"},{"start":2702.697,"end":2717.282,"text":"就審查國家安全法相關修正草案進行報告以下請提出本會說明進行指教那長期以來中共對我統戰滲透那總統只是全面要檢視相關的法令"},{"start":2722.258,"end":2743.012,"text":"總統在本年3月13日提出五大國安及統戰威脅和實際下因應策略已經清楚指出為因應中共對我滲透統戰各機關應該全面檢視相關法令必要時提出相關修正案儘速落實本會樂見立法委員提出相關修正案進行審議討論"},{"start":2745.438,"end":2769.035,"text":"那第二 共諜案層出不窮 相關法制的確有待完備根據國安局的統計 2024年一位共諜案起訴人數計64人是2021年的三倍顯示中共不斷刺激挖掘我方可吸收的人員 藉以擴大共諜網絡政府於109年曾經修正國安五法"},{"start":2769.602,"end":2780.876,"text":"但是層出不窮的共諜案件再再顯示當前的國安法制還是無法有效遏制這種案件的產生有待相關法制的進一步完備"},{"start":2782.148,"end":2799.562,"text":"那第三我們國家的核心關鍵技術和關鍵基礎設施是中共重要滲透目標必須要強化相關規範來防篤基先那近年來陸方持續透過非法挖角在台施設據點等方式竊取我國關鍵產業技術"},{"start":2802.645,"end":2821.905,"text":"間諜網軍及駭客長期以我政府單位 機密單位 關鍵基礎設施及自通安全措施作為滲透目標長此以往不但將嚴重影響我國經濟產業優勢地位也將對我國家安全與社會安全造成重大危害所以"},{"start":2823.543,"end":2841.018,"text":"為進一步強化我們國家核心關鍵技術和國家關鍵基礎設施的維護有賴相關法制要提供更完備的行為規範第四各個委員的相關提案版本主要是修正國安法的相關規定針對防度發展組織禁止參與組織防範洩密維護國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":2847.967,"end":2870.561,"text":"維護國家關鍵基礎設施維護自動安全對於違反相關規定的軍公教級供應機構人員剝奪期退休給予設立國安專庭等部分加以強化那相關修法方向與本會政策立場一致那本會競表支持並尊重大院的審議結果謝謝好謝謝好那我們請法務部防政務次長士傑"},{"start":2883.021,"end":2900.299,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會的先進今天奉邀列席大院櫃員會就病案審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬拒國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正查案等案代表本部列席報告並被質詢原分數如下進行質教"},{"start":2901.922,"end":2924.091,"text":"國家安全涉及軍事經濟科技文化等多個面向是政府最重要的工作之一來維護國家的基本利益跟人民的福祉那麼近來境外敵對勢力對台勝透守法日益多元方式種類多樣而對我國的國家安全造成重大的威脅有建議我國高科技產業具有高度的戰略價值"},{"start":2925.391,"end":2943.055,"text":"為周延保護我國高科技產業競爭力及國家經濟利益並防止國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密遭侵害本部前逾110年7月與國防部內政部共同會嫌提案修正國家安全法修正內容包含明定國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":2946.257,"end":2963.09,"text":"經濟間諜罪與國家核心關鍵技術營業秘密之域外使用罪發展組織國安案件與國安營業秘密案件由第二審法院為第一審管轄增訂廠商履約交付錄製品及不實軍品罪設立國安專業法庭或專股審查審理"},{"start":2965.231,"end":2982.092,"text":"國安法案件等等並於111年5月兼經大院三讀通過那裡面仿效了美國經濟間諜法案完備國家核心關鍵技術因應秘密之層級化保護體系以達到保護高科技產業之目的來保護國家經濟命案之安全"},{"start":2982.853,"end":3002.97,"text":"那麼當然在這幾年間執行的結果發現尚有許多不足之處因此在此也感謝各位委員長期對我國國安法制的關心憂衷表示敬佩委員提案修法內容部分好事涉刑法法定主義跟比例原則所以與本部延期結果可能略有不同"},{"start":3003.43,"end":3028.767,"text":"然未呼應國人對國家安全保障之殷切期盼並提升國家安全法治而完整性之修法目的則無二致本部對於修正目的均表示支持跟贊同引下因時間關係僅就各修正草案內容之構成要件與其他法律保護範圍及刑法原理原則之關聯略述表示意見"},{"start":3029.668,"end":3036.042,"text":"那麼首先關於委員陳冠廷的21人擬拒國安法第二條跟第七條修正草案的殷委員這個"},{"start":3038.732,"end":3063.152,"text":"加入涉及國家安全或公共利益等要件其修法目的這個用意良善但是這樣子加上這個要件之後可能比現行條文所定義的公務秘密範圍可能會有點縮小目前國安法的保護的涵蓋範圍是最廣的所以本條的修正見請在左"},{"start":3063.832,"end":3082.655,"text":"那麼有關委員沈伯陽等17人你據國安法第13條及第13條之一條文修正草案,剛才沈委員已經有所說明那麼在書面意見中所提出的這個比例原則的部分因為也涉及到很多其他的相關的配套的法令,包含"},{"start":3083.575,"end":3111.984,"text":"這個兩岸人民關係條例以及這個國防部所屬的相關的法律均應會同一併修正所以我們會配合行政院的齊成跟各機關一起一同來檢視相關的法律如何來規定能夠達到這個嚇阻這個軍公教及相關公益事業機構所有的這些人員對國家的忠誠義務能夠提升的這樣的一個立法目的我們會再行研議"},{"start":3112.924,"end":3130.259,"text":"那麼有關委員邱志偉的16年拟據國家安全法第三條條文修正草案案的部分這個跟黃婕媛的提案有類似之處那麼因為這一個現行國安法的第三條跟第八條是模仿參考美國聯邦"},{"start":3133.801,"end":3162.127,"text":"經濟間諜法第18231條等條文來訂定那麼認為說將國家核心關鍵技術跟一頁秘密結合有利於與一頁秘密法相互搭配來建構神奇化的保護規範並且在偵查跟審判程序中可以直接適用一頁秘密的保護體系例如檢察官在偵查中可以核發偵查保密令審判中法官可核發秘密保持命令等等對於這一些"},{"start":3163.207,"end":3187.188,"text":"技術秘密的保護在增省的過程中保護較為周延並且可以使刑罰的課題限縮在符合營業秘密要建置國家核心關鍵技術不致過寬避免過度限縮企業的活動力那麼管制國家核心關鍵技術的方式及違反這些管制措施的處罰事實上屬於敏感性技術出口管制之範疇"},{"start":3188.129,"end":3217.181,"text":"另外可以在相關的法律來定為規範國安法目前的條文仍然是以經濟間諜行為為主是處罰的對象所以如果是敏感性技術的出口管制如果經核定為國家核心關鍵技術後對於這些持有秘密人的管制措施另外在相關的法律裡面去訂定會比在目前的條文裡面直接刪除來得完善所以這個部分也見請在座那麼"},{"start":3218.915,"end":3244.955,"text":"關於委員沈柏洋等20人拟據《國家安全法》第二條及第七條條文修正查案案所提到的仿效反授鬥法第九條的提例增訂中間人的部分因為在實際偵查案件上面事實上很多案件都可以用正犯的理論就可以處理所以是不是有需要一同來訂定這個我們可以再行研議"},{"start":3246.316,"end":3253.785,"text":"另外提出來修正草案第二條將國家關鍵基礎設施的安全防護規定訂到條文裡面來但是因為現行的體制裡面行政院國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱領"},{"start":3264.096,"end":3285.008,"text":"裡面已經有要求關於這個部分全述除了依法列為國家機密者外,均應列為公務機密所以現行條文的公務上因秘密之文書、圖畫、影像、消息、物品或電子紀錄這些文字的敘述應該已經可以涵蓋這個修法所想要納入的內容"},{"start":3288.359,"end":3303.348,"text":"有關委員王定宇第16條等16人擬拒國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案這個部分關於加重其刑的部分立法目的"},{"start":3307.523,"end":3334.698,"text":"我們認為就參與組織的類型要增訂本部贊同要增訂不是只有發展在參與組織部分這個類型要增訂但是條文的敘述方式關於這個構成要件應該如何敘述以符合明確性跟比例原則這個部分我們會另外再來提出目前在研議當中所以也請在座"},{"start":3335.638,"end":3349.823,"text":"那麼在關於這個委員什麼樣的20年拟據國家安全法第3條、第8條、第18條條文修正草案等案關於中間的部分意見如前那麼關於修正這個"},{"start":3351.543,"end":3365.921,"text":"國家經濟健能罪的部分那麼這個也意見跟剛才已經有敘述過了那最後關於委員陳冠廷的19人擬拒國家安全法增訂第19條之一條文草案這個部分因為"},{"start":3367.123,"end":3379.379,"text":"現行的國安法其實已經就專業法庭或指定專股辦理人已有規定只是用得涉的規定來設現行的國安法19條因為司法院在112年12月20日已經在他的"},{"start":3384.719,"end":3395.828,"text":"修正公布的現行各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法的第二條跟附表二已經針對這個國安專庭有所規範那麼也已經有設立這個國安軍事專業法庭了那是否有真正的必要見請在座"},{"start":3404.094,"end":3414.284,"text":"至於說第二項要求專業法庭的法官要每年接受在職訓練及專業認證此涉及司法院的業管本部尊重其權責及意見因為時間的關係其他如果沒有敘述到的請參閱書面報告以上說明謝謝"},{"start":3422.987,"end":3447.986,"text":"好 其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們現在進行詢答委員諮詢前 原列座以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加1非本會委員發言時間4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天處理法案 本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3449.332,"end":3452.914,"text":"好沒有那我們現在請登基第一位的蘇巧惠委員好謝謝主席我們先請法務部黃次長好請黃次長"},{"start":3474.667,"end":3496.814,"text":"市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎"},{"start":3498.397,"end":3518.181,"text":"我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才不管是本部的報告或入委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要深圳報案司法院都要共同來努力"},{"start":3518.641,"end":3525.824,"text":"我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來您剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢"},{"start":3546.873,"end":3574.57,"text":"如果我們來看這三年統計的狀態我們這三年在剛剛那麼多的法條規定裡面如果我們用到國安法從涉案來講其實也就是這麼幾件那甚至到判刑來講坦白講這三年裡面一共只有合計就這麼個位數的件數有到判刑的狀態而且呢六個月以上刑度的其實也只有一件"},{"start":3575.39,"end":3592.351,"text":"所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但"},{"start":3592.831,"end":3598.454,"text":"其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關喔這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":3622.166,"end":3644.011,"text":"在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂"},{"start":3647.992,"end":3676.765,"text":"所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那"},{"start":3677.265,"end":3687.794,"text":"我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好請陸委會"},{"start":3692.682,"end":3698.889,"text":"是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就是說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是喔"},{"start":3707.899,"end":3720.47,"text":"一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度"},{"start":3726.515,"end":3738.924,"text":"兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說他可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例然後就有相關當事人出來說你這個是文字獄等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置"},{"start":3756.595,"end":3768.043,"text":"你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那"},{"start":3770.882,"end":3787.055,"text":"他的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方"},{"start":3788.296,"end":3808.43,"text":"和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣"},{"start":3809.298,"end":3836.55,"text":"但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理"},{"start":3837.31,"end":3853.523,"text":"那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我"},{"start":3854.704,"end":3872.861,"text":"帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子"},{"start":3873.982,"end":3890.762,"text":"那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大"},{"start":3892.384,"end":3921.491,"text":"所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人"},{"start":3921.991,"end":3930.197,"text":"好很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者"},{"start":3950.771,"end":3954.553,"text":"至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省"},{"start":3969.502,"end":3978.928,"text":"國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這個就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":3997.358,"end":4012.433,"text":"所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及"},{"start":4012.793,"end":4028.81,"text":"台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦"},{"start":4032.513,"end":4042.195,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控是那我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人而是針對這樣舉辦這種活動和大陸和這個中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝陸委會 未來請加油 謝謝好 謝謝好 請李博義委員"},{"start":4069.798,"end":4072.267,"text":"謝謝 有請陸委會副主委好 請陸委會"},{"start":4077.665,"end":4103.577,"text":"所以委員好副主席你剛剛講的這個案件其實每天都在台灣發生沒有錯發生的型態有太多種那我們今天有立法院我們內政委員會提出來的這些國安法的討論裡面包含很多法條其實很多委員的版本其實我們沒有辦法掌握到"},{"start":4104.577,"end":4133.59,"text":"向陸委會可以掌握到這麼多的這些形態跟樣態是跟你聊一下跟你討論一下中共有多少人在做統戰那他統戰的形態有多少誰是會被他想要統戰的有哪些形態的人我稍微講一下你看我有沒有漏掉是退役軍人退役調查局退役公務員這是他們最有興趣的對不對接下來"},{"start":4137.244,"end":4161.79,"text":"現任可能是不管是助理也好或者是可能從事政治相關活動的也好這個也是他們想要滲透的對不對還有之前更嚴重的直接買一個政黨叫做統一促進黨都直接拿中國的資金介入台灣選舉違反可能是選罷法那違反可能是"},{"start":4165.507,"end":4189.132,"text":"政黨法當然他已經第一個被成功送政黨解散的一個政黨他不是政黨他也是中共想要滲透的一個黨一個單位這麼多這麼多的這種形態那我想我們今天提出來的包含委員提出來的我有連署的第二條"},{"start":4191.475,"end":4218.236,"text":"如果有去簽署加入他們的組織的這個我們希望也可以把它規範下來第七條針對現任軍人跟公務員我們有用加重刑責的方式第十四條我覺得也非常值得討論雖然在現在退服法裡面針對他們這些退休的這些待遇可能我們就是如果有犯相關的這些國安的事情我們給他停職之外呢"},{"start":4219.056,"end":4241.681,"text":"那我覺得修法還是遠遠不夠因為裡面還是我們每天遭遇的剛剛我講的這一個每天在推廣中共統戰訊息的這一些而且這些訊息可能是假的訊息可能都是認知作戰的內容這一些我們確實無法規範你知道我講的就是抖音TikTok是那"},{"start":4243.064,"end":4269.46,"text":"對於抖音TikTok它其實每天每天都在發生雖然我們都會去教不管是長輩或者是年輕人看抖音的時候要有一個判斷的想法但是我們確實無法規範抖音它同時也是造成美國國安問題很重要的一個原因我想要針對抖音的問題來請教副主委"},{"start":4271.308,"end":4291.025,"text":"抖音我們在上一次遇到的這些包含陸配大部分的陸配都是很好的在台灣生活過的不可能想要再回中國去過中國的那種生活但是他透過抖音衝他在中國的流量"},{"start":4292.236,"end":4317.886,"text":"去賺他的錢但是講的內容卻嚴重傷害台灣我們卻只能用台灣地區大陸人民關係條例來做這一些管理管制但是還是有大量的到中國發展的網紅有這一些行為那我們要怎麼樣可以來規範當然也不是審查我們都知道他是帶流量嘛"},{"start":4319.002,"end":4334.504,"text":"他藉由這個統戰藉由講台灣不好藉由甚至講武統台灣這些內容然後來衝他的流量我們卻沒有任何武器可以來對付這個我覺得這是不是應該要做一些約束"},{"start":4336.719,"end":4353.717,"text":"關於抖音以及不只是抖音還有很多其他的各類的網路世界的一些網站或者是等等這些部分其實在非常非常遺憾的就是說我們台灣其實沒有什麼法律可以管"},{"start":4355.295,"end":4372.166,"text":"非常自由啊除了根據兒少法如果他有這個兒少相關就是保護兒童出於保護兒童的目的那我們的政府機關才可以針對該網站做出處罰或是所謂的"},{"start":4374.213,"end":4395.955,"text":"降解析意思就是block起來所以這個我們要跟疏發部要好好的來做一些探討但是這個不只是疏發部的問題意思就是說這個權力到底要放在哪一個單位手上疏發部他可能譬如說即使在兒照法的時候疏發部也只是一個執行的單位"},{"start":4396.495,"end":4421.022,"text":"它並不是一個決定做決策的單位所以我們對於網路世界的管理確實在台灣目前為止沒有法律的授權各個機關碰到類似這樣的問題的時候那往往就是有點應該是說沒有法律授權所以沒有辦法處理接下來我們就是要應應的問題最後"},{"start":4423.282,"end":4447.27,"text":"民進黨在這一屆的立法院已經提出包括兩岸人民關係條例反滲透法還有資訊安全管理法在藍白的程序委員會一共被擋了363次包含中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨很遺憾的在第九屆的時代力量"},{"start":4448.39,"end":4461.124,"text":"黃國昌委員也都提出國安跟加重的共諜的這些刑責我很想看看今天的台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員對於國安法的態度到底是怎樣副主委這個你不用回答謝謝我們請高金素梅委員"},{"start":4477.533,"end":4481.016,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請黃次長好 請黃次長次長你好 這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎 是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關"},{"start":4505.584,"end":4523.733,"text":"官法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委員會所以未來主管機關是行政院還是行政院所以行政院會跨部會協調大家然後但是今天我們看到立法院有九個修法版本"},{"start":4524.572,"end":4546.556,"text":"那在我看來的時候我真的覺得不可思議啊我要講一下過去這幾年在民進黨的主導之下我們在2019年修了國安無法然後也立了反滲透法2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多"},{"start":4549.659,"end":4575.812,"text":"而事隔三年 我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本呢把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之"},{"start":4577.313,"end":4601.078,"text":"我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎"},{"start":4603.09,"end":4622.783,"text":"國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語"},{"start":4623.891,"end":4649.972,"text":"那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行爭取好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧"},{"start":4658.099,"end":4674.856,"text":"黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不就是思想檢查嗎"},{"start":4675.816,"end":4697.435,"text":"這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰"},{"start":4699.622,"end":4724.747,"text":"如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如Google"},{"start":4725.487,"end":4750.882,"text":"臉書LINE抖音TRADE難道這些知通產品也要通通被限制嗎委員請問現在是要我回答嗎因為剛剛你說我不用回答因為你剛剛一直看我你剛剛說我不用回答所以你認為第四條呢這不是你管的吧這個部分應該是剛剛那個書發部有說明對這不是你管的嗎所以你不用書發部有在嗎"},{"start":4752.363,"end":4774.919,"text":"好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎"},{"start":4777.738,"end":4804.419,"text":"跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們人務法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以"},{"start":4805.226,"end":4811.874,"text":"因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如"},{"start":4813.028,"end":4838.299,"text":"例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸廠牌像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對他沒有限制一般的民眾嗎目前沒有好未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好再來陳冠廷委員版本第19條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好司法院今天有來嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4842.452,"end":4870.555,"text":"一十九條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有高等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以呢必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以"},{"start":4871.684,"end":4876.468,"text":"這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎"},{"start":4887.937,"end":4901.63,"text":"加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好"},{"start":4903.392,"end":4919.704,"text":"1949年 國民政府在反共的國策之下 它宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢 就用一旨行政命令 發布了三地管制然後這樣的管制呢 管制了30個三地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地 都被劃進了三地管制區"},{"start":4920.764,"end":4941.38,"text":"當年為什麼要管制山地呢?就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反,就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃"},{"start":4942.541,"end":4967.694,"text":"查不到傳單 查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":4971.816,"end":4987.788,"text":"難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共"},{"start":4988.969,"end":5002.587,"text":"綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法例難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況"},{"start":5006.292,"end":5021.085,"text":"上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委"},{"start":5022.253,"end":5040.905,"text":"不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後 大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是 我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法 看一下"},{"start":5041.886,"end":5067.416,"text":"以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝"},{"start":5073.932,"end":5080.454,"text":"謝謝我們感謝高進素美委員執勤我們請張宏祿召委執勤我先請陸委會副主委請陸委會主委是 委員好"},{"start":5103.539,"end":5122.628,"text":"副主委剛剛有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前啊都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在啊"},{"start":5125.185,"end":5149.714,"text":"我們就舉一個最近的例子好了這個副主委如果說連民政處長 民政局長都可以洩漏個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩漏了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大 可能性很大 因為"},{"start":5150.914,"end":5176.544,"text":"老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統病疫資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛 所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好 來"},{"start":5187.335,"end":5195.906,"text":"我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能是會有可能都有可能嗎那你們要查一下"},{"start":5197.994,"end":5223.309,"text":"其實在互證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂互證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照各資法所規定的來收集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反各資法的問題不知道 互證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會"},{"start":5226.151,"end":5229.612,"text":"會嘛那你們要查一下啊這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處"},{"start":5241.96,"end":5268.941,"text":"那個是檢調機關啦身為呼吸症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們啊你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合不是啦你回答我的這等於是官話嘛對不對現在大家就在這邊講這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊對不對"},{"start":5269.81,"end":5294.19,"text":"你本已全責你全台灣可能要查一下啊對不對誰有不罰使用誰有什麼的你們就要賀指未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不罰使用的這個啊你們應該要主動查啊對不對民眾的個資欸這樣你如果這樣回答哇全台灣人都擔心了喔全台灣的人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了喔"},{"start":5295.083,"end":5308.012,"text":"在行政管理上當然我們會促請地方政府要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合我們看看你們怎麼做"},{"start":5313.644,"end":5341.831,"text":"來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是報告委員其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄"},{"start":5343.401,"end":5363.952,"text":"因為他其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為有絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法"},{"start":5366.039,"end":5383.76,"text":"它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄 處罰的行為也非常有限"},{"start":5385.462,"end":5403.793,"text":"所以我們的國安法我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的謝謝副主委我請那個次長次長跟司法院來我們家的次長司法院"},{"start":5411.376,"end":5429.758,"text":"我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理"},{"start":5432.12,"end":5459.759,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規"},{"start":5460.609,"end":5483.37,"text":"那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是"},{"start":5486.852,"end":5498.367,"text":"這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要"},{"start":5499.58,"end":5516.26,"text":"我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎"},{"start":5517.623,"end":5531.574,"text":"次長 你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員 因為都有說明至少就這個退伏的機制還有這個剝奪的部分 已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分 我們也在進行好 謝謝我們感謝張宏祿召委質詢我們黃姐的委員"},{"start":5556.513,"end":5561.559,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請陸委會副主委請副主委副主委先跟你請教你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢"},{"start":5572.082,"end":5587.888,"text":"我舉個例子像第二條我們只處罰為中共發展組織的發展主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪但是"},{"start":5588.988,"end":5613.73,"text":"加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人"},{"start":5615.047,"end":5635.866,"text":"所以最後是用貪汙罪 因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦所以這個部分我們是認為說 如果你只辦主持人發展者但是沒有辦加入者 這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說 在第二條裡面"},{"start":5639.98,"end":5666.925,"text":"參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個是應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華"},{"start":5667.965,"end":5682.374,"text":"到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的"},{"start":5683.294,"end":5709.739,"text":"那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊"},{"start":5710.259,"end":5732.087,"text":"那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎"},{"start":5733.462,"end":5755.973,"text":"應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎"},{"start":5756.673,"end":5772.703,"text":"好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛"},{"start":5773.223,"end":5801.997,"text":"目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情"},{"start":5802.777,"end":5824.671,"text":"光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎"},{"start":5825.692,"end":5853.044,"text":"唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好 那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的守法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到"},{"start":5853.624,"end":5878.075,"text":"那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子"},{"start":5878.939,"end":5894.552,"text":"那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分"},{"start":5895.854,"end":5921.434,"text":"這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議"},{"start":5922.054,"end":5946.241,"text":"好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上因秘密的定義公務上因秘密"},{"start":5950.086,"end":5970.341,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢 是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共"},{"start":5971.101,"end":5996.086,"text":"那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣"},{"start":5997.506,"end":6022.368,"text":"那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来"},{"start":6022.762,"end":6045.106,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝好 請王美惠留言"},{"start":6058.379,"end":6062.14,"text":"主席,我們現在入委會副主委好,請副主委是,是,委員好主委,早上好,早上主委,在這個過程當中,我們的官罰有的人覺得說他提議出來,這條不好,那條不好有的人覺得說,那條要改,那條要改我們今天"},{"start":6086.408,"end":6093.134,"text":"我們可以拜託大家來探討 為了中華民國的台灣 法律可以更好不是越修越慢 說的全都要做的事是沒辦法的每一個提出的手法 我們都尊重"},{"start":6112.33,"end":6118.974,"text":"因為國家有國家的法律所以我們今天的想法會講到國安法要如何來修正的時候來修這個法律的時候本身是覺得非常重要剛才副主委也說過我們的組織組織本身有多,加加立沒多加加立的人比組織的人"},{"start":6139.224,"end":6142.187,"text":"在這個過程當中國家會不好啦因為我覺得一個國家不管是怎樣想法就是我們想不到的路到不對的最近你看中國怎樣如何讓人家打毆的時候如何利用"},{"start":6163.707,"end":6172.651,"text":"我們的臺灣人來攻擊中華民國的臺灣人這是非常嚴重的在這裏面你有看到我們最近正在做的事和問題嗎來請副主委你回答一下我要報告我剛剛就講其實我們國安法它的規範的範圍其實很窄對其實很窄對那我舉個例子譬如說"},{"start":6192.618,"end":6207.715,"text":"如果譬如說何韻詩小姐香港那位何韻詩她曾經在來台灣被某些人潑妻那我們知道背後可能有指使但是潑妻的這個行為"},{"start":6209.448,"end":6224.134,"text":"他顯然是在我們看來他就有害國家安全因為他是針對特定的人士然後因為特定的政治主張但是在我們國安法裡面這個就沒有規範"},{"start":6230.458,"end":6240.947,"text":"我的意思就是說我們國安法確實是很窄它只處罰說發展組織跟刺探機密就只有這兩種但是國家安全絕對不只是這兩種"},{"start":6243.229,"end":6258.419,"text":"所以我們陸委會的立場就是對於委員對於社會上所要提出的任何的加強國安法的這些我們都是贊成支持的,謝謝因為在本席跟你談到,覺得一個國家如果要補充就很簡單"},{"start":6264.022,"end":6266.843,"text":"一個國家可以經濟和國際來撐平的時候,那是不簡單的啦尤其中華民國的台灣,說實在,我們的認識非常強如果在中國利用他人來打破壞的時候,這是非常的嚴重啦"},{"start":6287.076,"end":6290.537,"text":"最近我們也看到港鐵 我都覺得你的廢鐵不管是在哪裡的生育費我們都一定是要辦、要做的 這才是有負擔的國家因為有的人說 因為民進黨會把你們的資金所有的供費 廢鐵都在你們旁邊你們自己處理不好"},{"start":6325.654,"end":6335.8,"text":"所以我們在法律上面也是要收款所以我們很努力的在做,但是法律的授權不足,法律涵蓋的範圍不足"},{"start":6337.601,"end":6345.328,"text":"所以就拜託各位委員如果可以幫忙我們做一些改進或是增強 我們都很歡迎"},{"start":6346.571,"end":6351.457,"text":"對啦 因為今天想 我們這次想想這個法例 希望大家有意見 提出來探討 提出來講因為 我覺得 既然你做公務人員也好 做民運代表中央的國會的委員也好 你要去告"},{"start":6367.515,"end":6369.176,"text":"帝國的時候要到中國的時候說不用報備我都想不到是在怕什麼是在煩惱什麼因為我覺得說"},{"start":6379.517,"end":6384.658,"text":"關於立法委員附入審查的問題其實我們兩岸條例的規定就是說這個要由立法院要提出名單然後交給主管機關"},{"start":6407.805,"end":6429.91,"text":"那這麼多年來其實五院裡面像監察院司法院一些法官碰到有國安案件的他們也都會提出來那監察院裡面有碰到國安案件的這些監委然後包括他委員會裡面的工作人員等等監察院也會提出名單給我們那這些都是要審查的"},{"start":6430.67,"end":6450.098,"text":"但是這麼多年來其實立法院從來沒有提出過名單從來沒有從來沒有所以對我們來說的話這個就是造成很大的困擾等於是兩岸條例有規定請各機關提出名單但是因為立法院從來沒提"},{"start":6452.139,"end":6457.462,"text":"因為本席跟你談到這一個是說 所了解是怎樣不要站在範圍裡面我也讓蘇貞霞聽到沒有感動的立委的說你不要讓我們去 先來你們說 再回來跟報備我說聽差一點 跟你要去做什麼你不用報備 再回來跟說的 跟警察說"},{"start":6480.535,"end":6504.969,"text":"沒有意義的事情啦所謂你要怎麼可以我們如果沒有那個法他如果沒有報備你也沒辦法喔其實我們對於譬如說縣市長然後如果是立委的如果立委的話我們這些審查我們都基本上是尊重也就是說雖然說是小查雖然說是審查但是其實是報備有些人要報不報啦"},{"start":6509.292,"end":6511.213,"text":"但是我的感覺是覺得現在的報紙也很方便的直播也很方便的啦什麼人有期待一個國家什麼人有期待一個國家應該大家都看到啦我的感覺是覺得"},{"start":6526.101,"end":6531.144,"text":"應該要有信請才可以去因為是怎樣那個國家對中華民國的台灣太壞了不管是要我們挑戰不管是要說我們的排位所以在這個環境裡面我覺得這一點我們要繼續堅持下去繼續提出我們的提案你看300多次了"},{"start":6556.176,"end":6565.367,"text":"當然我們還是要繼續我們要互相加油因為台灣這個土地中華民國不能讓憂心人被我們破壞了以上是 謝謝委員好 我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":6589.635,"end":6596.821,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請陸委會副主委法務部政事以及國土安全辦的主任好所以我很好三位都上來了嘛好 時間的關係 問一問後一開始啊國家安全法的主管機關是哪一個機關"},{"start":6618.886,"end":6646.728,"text":"關國元行政院是有行政院嘛那所以今天有誰代表行政院發言關國元今天院裡面有我們國土安全辦公室好OK來第一個問題喔中國啊對台灣的敵意啊我相信所有的人都知道啊目前對台灣的國家安全啊造成最大威脅的就是中華人民共和國啊政策上面的立場洩密"},{"start":6647.965,"end":6660.57,"text":"給中華人民共和國跟泄密給一般的外國刑罰應該要與以區別對待講得更具體一點泄密給中華人民共和國應該要加重處罰這件事情行政院的立場如何行政院有沒有立場我剛特別請可以代表行政院立場的人上來回答這個問題行政院贊不贊成"},{"start":6674.741,"end":6697.631,"text":"包括委員這個涉及到我們內部還要再做一些討論還要討論喔討論非常久了捏跟委員報告我想我們今天出席國土辦出席主要是因為涉及到關鍵基礎設施的事項來進行出席那所以呢剛剛我就問嘛可以代表行政院發言的是誰嘛要不然各個部會國家足球隊踢來踢去的"},{"start":6700.155,"end":6726.218,"text":"說中國是我們的境外敵對勢力對境外敵對勢力我說洩密給他們要加重處罰怎麼每一個人都畏畏縮縮的啊行政院到現在喔你剛剛的回答是說這件事情還要研議是不是還需要研議多久跨部會的事項剛剛不是講得很清楚了嗎這個主管機關是行政院今天行政院是由你代表回答我有說錯嗎"},{"start":6728.174,"end":6752.03,"text":"報告委員今天因為這個涉及到院的奇怪今天國家安全法喔第二條也好第三條也好第七條也好第八條也好全部涉及的條文如果主管機關是行政院的話今天可以代表誰代表行政院回答是法務部嗎還是陸委會還是沒有人可以代表那要不然今天辦這個質詢到底有什麼意義"},{"start":6753.604,"end":6775.386,"text":"是由法務部代表嗎委員今天的邀請名單是由內政委員會提供的是 這我知道啊沒有關係 因為是關於刑法的部分那我們不能說我們代表行政院回答但是這個基本的立場我們可知贊同以上你說這個立場法務部是贊同的那很奇怪啊因為我上個禮拜"},{"start":6777.157,"end":6790.619,"text":"這是要法治委員會質詢法務部部長啊我直接問部長啊說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情啊結果部長含糊其詞欸跟今天國土辦的立場一樣欸那今天你是次長"},{"start":6791.981,"end":6816.311,"text":"市長代表法務部表示贊成就對了我想這個部分因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序所以呢所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序你個人表示贊成就對了所以你是個人贊成還是代表法務部贊成還是代表行政院贊成我個人的意見你個人意見嘛好來我一次講啦讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院"},{"start":6817.185,"end":6837.103,"text":"我向來的主張啊洩密給中國刑度就是要加重處罰但我覺得很奇怪啊我從第九屆國會的時候再修國家安全法再修國家機密保護法民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼都反對啦都反對啦"},{"start":6838.18,"end":6863.074,"text":"上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄啦有我跟邱泰山尋答的紀錄啊全部都反對說泄密給中國不用加重處罰我從第九屆國會的時候看到這個立法態度我就覺得很奇怪啊中國是我們最大的外患泄密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯為什麼為什麼民進黨表示反對"},{"start":6864.482,"end":6879.975,"text":"到這一屆國會的時候我們所提出的國家機密保護法一樣泄密給中國台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法加重處罰泄密給中國跟泄密給我們的盟友處罰就是應該不一樣"},{"start":6881.65,"end":6900.343,"text":"最重要的政策立場我到目前為止整個行政院沒有看到這樣子一個清楚的表態這是立法程序作業的問題嗎這應該是立法政策的問題嘛你立法政策要定了你立法政策要定了接下來在法條的設計上"},{"start":6901.784,"end":6926.7,"text":"都是相對簡單的問題啦好 今天針對有關於啊洩密給中國我們在法定型的處理上 所謂法定型回到今天討論的國家安全法就是第七條 第八條的規定嘛洩密給中國不管是機密不管是公務上的秘密不管是關鍵基礎設施上面陰秘密的事項法定型都調高法務部贊不贊成"},{"start":6928.849,"end":6957.022,"text":"我想這個部的意見還是要經過這個研究所以今天沒有辦法表態 來 陸委會讚不讚成我們陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的那個方法跟措施我們都贊成所以呢 副主委你回答得非常藝術啊那你就直接講你贊成就好了嘛我個人贊成你個人 次長個人贊成 副主委個人也贊成 來國土辦的讚不贊成"},{"start":6959.062,"end":6965.248,"text":"就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡面因為也有相關的法令規定所以當然我們做這樣的一個認同"},{"start":6966.724,"end":6994.855,"text":"我們接下來處理法案的時候就見證章了啦我希望到處理的時候行政部門不要推三阻四的說還要再研議接下來第二個重要的問題啦剛剛有其他的委員問到現在綠色共諜橫行府院黨全部都淪陷了當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話這個我都可以理解我也沒有怪執政黨的委員但我們現在要討論的重要的問題是什麼"},{"start":6995.56,"end":7023.138,"text":"最後的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候我看到的是什麼我看到的事情是依照現行的辦法這些可以接觸到機密的人要喊請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核但問題是就沒辦啊就沒辦啊應該辦理特殊查核卻沒有辦理特殊查核來 請教一下行政院的立場應該辦卻沒有辦要不要追究責任"},{"start":7026.821,"end":7042.248,"text":"還是這個要請法務部次長回答應該辦沒有辦要不要追究責任因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們我們是受理調查局是受理連一個基本態度都不敢給喔"},{"start":7043.598,"end":7056.721,"text":"如果有違私的話當然要辦啦好如果有違私的話當然要辦來怎麼辦依照現行法法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核法律效果是什麼來請教一下"},{"start":7060.212,"end":7079.487,"text":"這個是公務人員服務法的規定啦所以咧應該要辦沒有辦嘛那法律效果是什麼這顯然非常重大的國安漏洞嘛應該要辦特殊查核沒有辦特殊查核結果搞到去洩密洩密給共匪責任可以不用追究嗎來請教次長"},{"start":7083.764,"end":7101.293,"text":"呃 這個部分應該是人事主管法規所以你也沒辦法回答嘛好 沒關係我下面的意見喔 三位再帶回去啦我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的找了三個人來沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話我具體的意見啦 是這個樣子"},{"start":7102.774,"end":7118.488,"text":"這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的從外交部到總統府我具體的意見啦是沒有依法辦特殊查核的出發要有明確的法律效果沒有明確的法律效果大家都在混嘛"},{"start":7119.42,"end":7145.576,"text":"全部的人都在混啊發現應該辦沒有辦誰要負責國家足球隊又出來啦踢來踢去那我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼現行法複製缺乳我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講針對這件事情重大法律上面的缺漏必須要科與法則這件事情我們會提出啊修正動議把它補強好謝謝"},{"start":7150.834,"end":7175.199,"text":"好請吳清明委員好 召委我們一會同仁請我們陸委會副主委好請副主委法務部我們的黃次長黃次長"},{"start":7178.607,"end":7193.179,"text":"是 委員好副主任 你好 針對今天國安法的修訂其實我們今天早上 我看到很多委員 大家都有提出他們各種的看法 其實你說在我們的國家安全尤其滲透 在最近和過去實在非常嚴重 這也是需要大家來做"},{"start":7208.141,"end":7218.449,"text":"對國家安全一定要更加緊密大家來討論所以本席站在說今個不管在野兩黨以及民眾黨大家提出的意見其實都很多都可以讓我們陸委會、法務部、相關單位包括國安會大家共同來制定一套"},{"start":7234.081,"end":7249.851,"text":"比較符合我們台灣因為台灣大家都知道有中華的問題存在所以為了我們國家的安全也是需要大家共同來提出因為我看我們港鐵案起訴的人數159個為了國家的安全但是有很多是沒有起訴"},{"start":7256.975,"end":7279.871,"text":"所以說一定要制定一個希望說我們不管陸委會法務部是不是說要擬定一個政策一個時間就我們的行政院辦趕快來其他的我們今天的共識大家集中趕快聯繫一套符合我們台灣的需要好不好是不是請我們法務部"},{"start":7281.215,"end":7303.8,"text":"是謝謝委員的這個支持那我想剛才我們也有提到就是賴總統他宣布之後事實上行政院已經啟動整體各機關全面來檢視了這個動作那今天各位委員所提示的相關的這個議題我們也都會帶回去在這個研議的過程中儘速來連理儘速來提出以上各位委員報告"},{"start":7304.724,"end":7310.948,"text":"好 一定要從重從遠可以好止滲透因為我們台灣畢竟是一個島型的國家我們都不容許滲透的問題"},{"start":7320.515,"end":7335.083,"text":"所以這個部分,也要拜託再來呢,我們可以說,這次,我看到有很多我們當年提出的版本所以,有很多我們的國安法,第二條、第四條、第三條"},{"start":7336.267,"end":7344.254,"text":"所以制定出來都值得我們大家共同來討論現在我請問我們的陸委會、我們的副主委未來針對滲透這個部分,我們陸委會要怎樣來有效的克制"},{"start":7355.568,"end":7370.659,"text":"目前我們陸委會主要還是依照兩岸人民關係條例但是兩岸人民關係條例它主要是一些行政法行政法的部分那個嚇阻力量不高"},{"start":7372.782,"end":7399.148,"text":"那反滲透法它其實有一些規定但是它也相對的比較範圍比較窄反滲透法主要是規定說是在選舉期間選舉期間然後中共的資金然後影響候選人但是它規範的時間就是時間上很短然後規範的活動就是很窄 範圍很窄"},{"start":7400.228,"end":7428.313,"text":"所以我們 我剛剛就一再講就是說國家安全的這個相關的事項非常多那中共的滲透行為你說得出100項他一定開始想出101項所以這個部分我覺得就是說從陸委會的立場我們贊成或支持所有 任何能夠加強國家安全的措施那各位委員所提出來的法條我們都很支持謝謝好"},{"start":7430.017,"end":7448.136,"text":"因為北溪這邊手上有一個一份資料,對於我們的海巡同仁在海巡服役期間因為在網路接觸到中國主動聯繫,聯繫他們提供的叫做泰達幣,就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":7450.285,"end":7462.812,"text":"所以說包括海型這個部分我們覺得這個滲透尤其現在是公務部門以及我們的海型跟金裝我相信"},{"start":7465.595,"end":7479.555,"text":"這絕對不是一個少數啦既然被揭露出來應該還有很多類似的案件所以這是我們未來要怎樣去防範不然這真的未來會越來越嚴重"},{"start":7483.165,"end":7503.719,"text":"委員講得非常正確就是說現在現在很多都是用利誘而且是小利我們覺得是有點痛心因為其實所牽涉的利益都不是很大但是就是會有人願意上鉤被吸收然後現在支付利益的方式"},{"start":7504.96,"end":7532.321,"text":"又越來越多然後現在所謂虛擬貨幣等等那對查緝的就是說對查緝的工作造成很大困難這樣那所以我們還是希望希望說各位委員能夠支持那未來的這個國家安全法或相關法律都能夠能夠加強謝謝本席一定支持啦我們就是要從重重演現在去制定好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7539.329,"end":7541.251,"text":"好 請徐宇臻委員謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好 請副主委跟次長委員好副主委還有次長兩位好"},{"start":7561.557,"end":7582.886,"text":"根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個"},{"start":7584.847,"end":7601.163,"text":"民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨的黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人"},{"start":7605.567,"end":7620.323,"text":"他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例"},{"start":7621.524,"end":7644.611,"text":"具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛剛講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高"},{"start":7645.322,"end":7668.206,"text":"副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人"},{"start":7671.724,"end":7686.071,"text":"我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打電玩這樣子"},{"start":7689.613,"end":7706.96,"text":"這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的"},{"start":7708.496,"end":7729.324,"text":"不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法"},{"start":7731.624,"end":7760.305,"text":"我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益"},{"start":7760.905,"end":7786.159,"text":"所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料"},{"start":7789.601,"end":7818.842,"text":"陸委會會不會提供他結案救助還是直接用反滲透法來辦理?海商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎?看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是既然我們剛剛看到你的報告就是"},{"start":7819.562,"end":7836.248,"text":"陸委會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步大概預計何時會提出行政院版本"},{"start":7837.108,"end":7866.188,"text":"我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是 那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合整個全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法"},{"start":7866.848,"end":7892.907,"text":"國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是"},{"start":7894.81,"end":7913.458,"text":"要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰"},{"start":7914.338,"end":7941.017,"text":"還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流"},{"start":7941.577,"end":7960.964,"text":"不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區嘛 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能啊"},{"start":7966.085,"end":7979.921,"text":"我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動"},{"start":7981.303,"end":7996.362,"text":"或是說你加入什麼外國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下"},{"start":7997.043,"end":8025.326,"text":"我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員會提案的文字版本為準對 所以這樣的條文你也認為不是那麼適宜嗎是 是 我們會再對 這樣等於未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流 不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國"},{"start":8026.367,"end":8030.089,"text":"好 丁薛忠 丁薛忠 丁薛忠委員不在我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":8064.242,"end":8092.529,"text":"主席各位委員有請這個入委會主委好請副主委委員好這個主委好這個今天國家安全法的條文的修正當然都是這個立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面這個第二條任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外勢力"},{"start":8094.123,"end":8122.775,"text":"敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做"},{"start":8123.721,"end":8151.114,"text":"過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差"},{"start":8152.233,"end":8177.741,"text":"而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係我們一個一個來"},{"start":8182.557,"end":8203.416,"text":"民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自"},{"start":8210.12,"end":8236.882,"text":"再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約"},{"start":8240.636,"end":8267.97,"text":"協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都南國"},{"start":8270.578,"end":8298.972,"text":"就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以在這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候"},{"start":8300.606,"end":8328.443,"text":"從過去最近的這些案例我們原族民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋了對我們原族民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼"},{"start":8329.682,"end":8349.163,"text":"所以這個部分這個督郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法"},{"start":8350.515,"end":8376.129,"text":"他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述"},{"start":8378.625,"end":8405.036,"text":"不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員 臺灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙 逃漏稅等等所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是 它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分的這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反"},{"start":8406.392,"end":8412.085,"text":"這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去言論自由跟國安"},{"start":8414.15,"end":8440.616,"text":"相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是 謝謝我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的學者去看你們的一個執行"},{"start":8441.604,"end":8446.865,"text":"你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好我們請徐欣穎委員謝謝主席本席有請法務部黃次長以及司法院吳法官好請司法院"},{"start":8474.779,"end":8498.685,"text":"市長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們所有國人都應該支持而且也是大家有共識的那我們今天呢國安法的部分修正草案我們要來審理所以我們當然希望把國安法把它修好"},{"start":8501.752,"end":8516.399,"text":"能夠把國安法修好讓人民有所依循也讓執法單位能夠知道怎麼樣執法所以本席在這裡要先請教我們法務部跟司法院"},{"start":8518.183,"end":8545.068,"text":"本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼"},{"start":8545.928,"end":8565.719,"text":"公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰"},{"start":8566.839,"end":8584.531,"text":"所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關來偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認那當然所以每一個刑罰的"},{"start":8585.792,"end":8614.654,"text":"這個範圍 比方說的行為它的構成要件符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的書面意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員 正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案"},{"start":8615.253,"end":8638.721,"text":"也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員"},{"start":8639.141,"end":8654.65,"text":"好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在"},{"start":8655.41,"end":8678.898,"text":"看一個月還是兩個月內可以提出針對這次的這些版本的完整的法律專業的評估意見包括各修法的版本和憲政體制以及司法審查標準的衝突與調和分析以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎"},{"start":8679.598,"end":8706.73,"text":"提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎"},{"start":8708.748,"end":8728.901,"text":"如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要研議那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久委員剛剛講最長是兩個月嗎兩個月可以嘛那法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性"},{"start":8733.164,"end":8751.941,"text":"可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程"},{"start":8752.801,"end":8767.591,"text":"我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧"},{"start":8769.132,"end":8796.849,"text":"目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜"},{"start":8797.469,"end":8820.217,"text":"所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是"},{"start":8823.038,"end":8832.206,"text":"因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來"},{"start":8834.746,"end":8858.133,"text":"對 我們整個國安法的修法那我們也要兼顧我們的民主與人權所以國安跟民主人權的平衡點到底在哪裡所以我們想要請教你們認為目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟廣泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言論自由集會結社的自由以及資訊自主權的實質風險"},{"start":8862.309,"end":8874.767,"text":"而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估"},{"start":8876.557,"end":8893.589,"text":"跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來"},{"start":8894.489,"end":8913.389,"text":"有這個要適用的話 行政委會指示好 最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險 簡單回答"},{"start":8917.852,"end":8932.646,"text":"報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位林靜萱林靜萱林靜萱委員不在請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8953.187,"end":8980.59,"text":"謝謝 我們麻煩法務部還有司法院好 請法務部跟司法院委員好好 各位早安因為我看了那個民進黨委員的版本那我就那個第二條的部分我想請教一下因為我有看過司法院跟那個法務部你們對於這個草案的論述"},{"start":8983.055,"end":9000.844,"text":"尤其是齁 我覺得最近發生很多共諜案那昨天還前天李永昌不是說國民黨這是那個幽靈聯署這個是犯罪組織 事實上幽靈聯署那個偽造文書並不是五年以上中 所以依照我國目前的組織犯罪條例第二條 其實"},{"start":9001.721,"end":9026.081,"text":"那個不算是組織犯罪 但是什麼東西算組織犯罪就是最近發生在總統府 國安會 外交部 還有民進黨民主學院還有民進黨立法院 黨團 都常有共諜那這個就完全符合組織犯罪的規定對不對 三年以上 五年以上有期徒刑所以我再說 這個我們必須一定要很注重國安的安全而且國家安全是每個人的責任"},{"start":9027.096,"end":9044.584,"text":"那我想請教一下齁我先請問痾正次啦齁痾第一款齁第二條第一款那個發起資助主持操縱指揮發展組織目前的起訴比例定罪比例你有資料嗎痾有資料嗎好請問您稍後這多少我請我們市長來依靠"},{"start":9054.293,"end":9082.021,"text":"跟委員報告那針對那個國家安全法的案件那起訴的案件在一百零三年的時候是有八十一件定罪率嗎起訴率定罪率目前定罪率是八十一趴好起訴率呢起訴率是這個二十八點六十二點三抱歉所以起訴率蠻低的嗎"},{"start":9083.001,"end":9085.305,"text":"130件裡面有81件起訴那起訴率是62.3%你剛不是說20幾嗎"},{"start":9092.605,"end":9119.296,"text":"不是不是 我看錯了好 沒關係 那不然這個到時候我再請教你們一下因為再給我一個比較精確的數據我不可能再提供數據因為我看了一下法務部跟司法院你們對於第二款的版本草案司法院認為說含義不明確法務部認為範圍不夠具體那所以說對於這一次委員所提出來的這個草案第二條第二款你們是不是不支持啊"},{"start":9120.22,"end":9126.275,"text":"我們都建請在座建請在座OK那就就是有疑慮司法院呢"},{"start":9127.845,"end":9151.982,"text":"也正如本院提出的報告就是有一些需要調整之處那我想說這就是司法的專業啦因為有一些人提出一些國安的法條那我們有疑問或我們我們有疑問在那邊說很多人說那你就是中共同路人我想不能這樣我們都法律人事實上這個法條的規範他從公務上面變成是涉及國家安全及公益上面這範圍變得非常的不明確"},{"start":9152.722,"end":9167.901,"text":"那如果這個因為這樣然後卡的罪又這麼重我覺得這不是一個立法委員一個禁止的立法委員該做了而且這個會變成到時候執政黨可以拿這個來作為政治攻擊我在這邊先聲明我非常支持國家安全"},{"start":9168.502,"end":9187.325,"text":"我也非常支持來自於任何一個國家或地區對我們的攻擊或滲透我也絕對反對但是我希望相關的法律在研擬的時候必須要明確尤其是罪非常的重那我過往我看到了國安法反滲透法等等我都發現有一個問題就是他的"},{"start":9188.085,"end":9211.983,"text":"後來的無罪率很高也就是說一開始他問了非常多的人鄰里非常多人因為去大陸旅遊或吃個飯然後就被起訴是被約談起訴結果後面就大量的被約談的人被大量牽結不起訴那被起訴的又大量的判無罪那我覺得這個都是老民那甚至呢他就是為了選舉在做一些動作那不要讓我們"},{"start":9213.935,"end":9227.086,"text":"覺得政府怎麼走向是希望讓國家走向寒蟬效應這個是我們不期待的時間的關係我最後我就提一個我想提你們"},{"start":9228.021,"end":9246.712,"text":"提供給我一些資料我希望法務部在一個月內能夠把違反國安法的起訴率有罪定罪率這個資料給我然後還有不起訴跟判無罪的理由提供一些我們立法建議還有這構成要件是有明確這個部分能夠給我"},{"start":9248.593,"end":9266.597,"text":"然後另外就是一週內給我們一份2023年到2024年總統跟立委大選期間違反選罷法反滲透法這些上次我其實在SAR法治已經有提過請你們把這個資料給我們因為我覺得國家安全事先的防範重於事後的追陳"},{"start":9267.625,"end":9282.841,"text":"結果你們把重點放在事後追審而且還規定的不明確這樣是不對的那下週我自己在法治委員會我有安排我希望說國安會國安局的人能夠一併來說明我也希望說大家不要動不動就請假或是用一些理由說不要過來因為"},{"start":9284.554,"end":9301.985,"text":"國家安全全民都注意不能一邊喊很大聲抗中保台國家安全另外一面然後你連來都不來齁這是我希望下週在市長法治委員會開會的時候大家都能夠到我們一起來為國家安全能夠加油不要讓國家安全變成是打擊政治議題的工具謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9307.386,"end":9314.851,"text":"好 宗教兵 宗教兵 宗教兵委員不在 何欣淳 何欣淳何欣淳委員不在 陳冠廷 陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在 我們請吳思耀委員謝謝主席國家安全很重要 只有4分鐘顯然不夠 爭取多一點點時間 謝謝有請我們黃次長跟梁副主委好 黃次長跟副主委"},{"start":9338.51,"end":9356.055,"text":"好我把握時間喔有兩個主題第一個有借選就會有借罷也就是中共對於台灣的民主選舉或是民主的罷免我們有沒有什麼超前部署的因應防範第二個我回到國安法立法院不應當是局外人來下頁"},{"start":9357.774,"end":9381.554,"text":"袁紅冰教授他一再的在警示著就以去年他很早的就揭示了習近平指示戰場就在立法院中共只要鎖定結盟立法院的同路人就可以用民主來破壞台灣的民主他是現在進行式所以袁教授所說的事情在過去一年的國會現場觀察起來一一應驗了下一頁"},{"start":9382.455,"end":9406.135,"text":"所以袁教授再一次的示警就是這幾天中國將介入台灣的大罷免的行動罷免是跟選舉一樣都是憲法珍貴的人民基本權所以中國過去介入台灣的民主選舉劣跡斑斑那現在會不會也介入台灣的民主人民基本權的另外一個就是罷免呢"},{"start":9406.855,"end":9423.233,"text":"袁教授所說的中共對台工作領導小組的文件已經批示了要著重分化民進黨跟公民霸團的關係要著力在防止大罷免行動中的公民團體的領軍人物來進行抹黑因為擔心他們未來來參選"},{"start":9425.996,"end":9446.462,"text":"第三個呢 大罷免進入三階所以中國一直在觀察要用各種認知作戰的宣傳手段從人格上來摧毀這些大罷免的行動就交於梁副主委或是我們次長這邊有任何具體這樣子的一個情資的判斷或者是你們有什麼樣的因應嗎袁紅冰教授所說的這份"},{"start":9452.421,"end":9467.758,"text":"文件我們並沒有掌握但是如果對岸想要做這些事情我是一點都不驚訝所以有沒有這些文件我覺得這些事情都是"},{"start":9469.161,"end":9492.619,"text":"都是對岸會想要試圖去做的那法務部有另外的什麼樣的情資來我們看下一頁我讓次長回答這一頁我一直認為就像剛剛梁副主委所說的不管文件的真實具體與否但是以中國過去介入民主選舉的這些作為來講未來介入罷免也應當讓不足為奇"},{"start":9494.941,"end":9522.677,"text":"法務部過去呢我在司法法治委員會你們針對整個選舉作為選舉的舉行會有境外資金借選會有網路選舉賭盤會有認知作戰操作訊息干擾等等你們都有專案會去偵辦會去啟動那我就交於次長那這一次如果在未來的罷免從二階到三階法務部也應當來啟動一個類似民主選舉的必要的作為是嗎"},{"start":9523.84,"end":9549.914,"text":"我想這個因為現行的這個嫌罷法跟這個反滲透法都有相關的這個法則的條文那麼各檢察機關都會以法來辦理那委員的建議我們會帶回去請檢察機關來過去我們對於民主選舉的舉行所啟動的所有不管反會選啦反賭盤啦這些都要做反境外的資金各種竊選方式未來在罷免的民主的"},{"start":9550.354,"end":9573.88,"text":"这些人民基本权利行使过程法务部也要依法行政那今天的主题呢要修国安法非常遗憾今天我们看在野党的多数委员也都说支持国安反共谍渗透可到目前为止提出来的国安法的修正案里头九个版本都是民进党委员所提的"},{"start":9574.58,"end":9581.767,"text":"那我個人所看了這總共的六個條文我認為它影響的層面廣泛為大內容方向我都可以支持但我認為還要比嚴謹更嚴謹內容再嚴密要周全再周全這應當也是行政部門未來不管有沒有願板我們都啟動多元擴大的對話下一頁"},{"start":9599.52,"end":9623.232,"text":"那過去法務部針對整個共諜滲透有很多你們做的譬如說在產業界的防止科技掏空那也有防止借選滲透還有防止發展組織利誘軍人在軍人的部分今天最新的有兩件我要就教於您一個就是今天週刊所說的透過黑幫的滲透這件事情次長要不要簡單說明"},{"start":9625.151,"end":9653.258,"text":"好 謝謝因為這個他應該是在我們到這邊之後才出來的新聞那我想簡單就這個議題事實上應該也也在台灣這個現象我們觀察到很久了那我們也會責成我們的檢察機關依法來查查只要有違反國安法或反滲透法相關的這個規定我們都依法來檢查要強化查查因為如果就週刊的報導他不只買通黑道未來可能不管在平時對於台灣社會的滋擾跟在戰時透過黑幫"},{"start":9656.106,"end":9668.442,"text":"來打擊台灣的安全這絕對不容小覷另外一個就是國會的被滲透的事件下一頁參議黨委員一直在帶風向說共諜都在民進黨是這樣嗎2020年立委陳淑慧前助理來"},{"start":9674.195,"end":9695.827,"text":"被判了徒刑因為涉犯共諜案 國民黨的2024年國民黨的李尚典 郭沛君替鄭天才委員助選免費交代附中旅遊也被判刑了 國民黨的民眾黨的桃園黨部發言人馬志威呢受中國資助百萬來選立委而且他拿到的是國會的中央各部會國會聯絡名冊賣給中國也被判刑八個月 這民眾黨的"},{"start":9700.33,"end":9717.82,"text":"那民進黨我們當然很遺憾游錫昆前院長的幕僚也目前要偵辦絕對不容寬待但是不要誤帶風向什麼共諜都在民進黨我們就事實論事實只要是共諜都不允許都要查辦下一頁"},{"start":9718.88,"end":9740.802,"text":"立法院2024年的年度代表字是匪喔真是讓人匪夷所思但是我們要審慎因應最後一個問題下一頁因為國安漏洞如果出現在國會目前公部門不管是調查局幫忙做的公務人員的一般查核或者是特殊查核或是可能考試院有幫忙協助拒絕的部分"},{"start":9741.683,"end":9754.85,"text":"現在我們正在研議在國會端對於立委對於立院的職員工對於國會助理能不能夠參照公務部門有任何查核或拒絕的機制呢可以給我們什麼樣的建議這個目前我們也在研議修法當中那你們會提出修但是這是可能是立法院的內規法"},{"start":9766.616,"end":9781.019,"text":"好我在這裡說我期待法務部就你們研修的部分提供給立法院然後民進黨團會啟動我們國會改革2.0也就是以國安的部分來做立法院無法內歸的修訂下頁"},{"start":9782.24,"end":9797.687,"text":"所以說藍白如果不做連附中登載這件事情藍白都不做民進黨團會先行就教於梁副主委民進黨團預計我們要針對立委以及助理附中的公開登載揭露"},{"start":9798.187,"end":9813.37,"text":"我們的做法朝向簽同意書朝向主動揭露附中的資訊包括立委跟助理喔還有達到事前報備事後報告如果民進黨團演繹這樣子我們在演繹當中陸委會是不是樂見或是給我們更正向的建議"},{"start":9814.551,"end":9839.29,"text":"我們如果會正在研議類似相關的修法我們現在目前是傾向把立委直接放進去也就是沈伯陽一直被擋的案子那但是助理的部分因為我想大家都知道這個生態如果你要規範你只能規範公費助理但是一旦規範下去的話很多公費助理就會變成自費助理"},{"start":9840.751,"end":9858.863,"text":"所以這個規範其實不是很有效所以我個人是建議說直接規範立委就好了當然就政府的法案可能規範立委是優先更何況現在已經連立委的附中登載就被擋了363次"},{"start":9860.544,"end":9876.831,"text":"但是我在這裡也擴大後續會再就教於各位我們民進黨團會先行我們自己先來做黨團內部的包括立委跟助理的這些揭露的作為也許我相信民進黨的委員們公費助理跟自費助理我們受到的嚴謹"},{"start":9879.392,"end":9899.787,"text":"我們的自我要求都是一樣高那剛剛黃次長說的正在研議對於國會的反共諜滲透有哪些法規法案民進黨團非常願意我們一起來共商討論畢竟保密防諜共諜不應當存在任何地方包括立法院不好意思佔用時間我們一起努力謝謝"},{"start":9904.321,"end":9916.531,"text":"好 邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在林儲英 林儲英 林儲英委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇委員不在好 我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席我們法務部次長有請請次長"},{"start":9932.698,"end":9962.078,"text":"市長早安今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這個東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論我援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生"},{"start":9962.759,"end":9978.282,"text":"他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序"},{"start":9978.662,"end":9999.267,"text":"甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要用怎麼樣的手段可以明確的"},{"start":10000.047,"end":10026.418,"text":"解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向"},{"start":10027.467,"end":10054.13,"text":"跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見得明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法令各級主管機關"},{"start":10055.091,"end":10083.198,"text":"都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方"},{"start":10085.003,"end":10104.471,"text":"所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在著啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來然後說關於這些部分幾乎每一條其實都有再考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":10106.312,"end":10125.753,"text":"目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能騎乘的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望"},{"start":10127.555,"end":10156.056,"text":"這我希望這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這個是試涉到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個"},{"start":10157.176,"end":10174.604,"text":"可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法"},{"start":10174.804,"end":10199.469,"text":"是 我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有的專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委"},{"start":10204.574,"end":10210.729,"text":"委員好我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對是"},{"start":10212.073,"end":10234.304,"text":"因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢"},{"start":10237.104,"end":10251.697,"text":"我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個"},{"start":10254.199,"end":10280.154,"text":"賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是技術部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講了那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔"},{"start":10281.054,"end":10297.502,"text":"這樣子你會支持嗎我舉一個最明顯的例子這我們的媽祖廟對不對梅州媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動"},{"start":10301.461,"end":10315.659,"text":"那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊"},{"start":10316.4,"end":10344.23,"text":"那這樣子變成媽祖梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我堅持舉其中一個例子如果講這個修法它除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊"},{"start":10345.731,"end":10366.893,"text":"不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線畫錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啦"},{"start":10368.435,"end":10375.261,"text":"這條線要怎麼畫 兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本集給你的建議 好嗎好 謝謝副主委鄭振淺委員不在 我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":10394.835,"end":10406.034,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全元發言邀請刑事組刑事警察局刑事警察局好 請刑事警察局嘿 請刑事警察局"},{"start":10413.826,"end":10428.571,"text":"本席今天主要要來跟你討論這個打炸成績單因為行政院打造中心在4月28號他有發布打炸成績單他聲稱了財產的損失下降了48.8%"},{"start":10431.385,"end":10453.644,"text":"那這個是要穩定民心因為大家現在在社會上都說這個詐騙的很多各種的方式都有所以讓人民非常的心生恐懼而且方式一變再變一直有各種的不同的方式所以讓民眾非常的不安心甚至有的連聽電話都會啪"},{"start":10455.806,"end":10473.196,"text":"現在看LINE啊 看臉書啊 被盜用啊大家不知道真的是假的還是假的是真的 還是真的是真的讓人民不安心所以我們全力的支持這個打詐但是根據民間PTT鄉民隊警政署這邊打詐儀表板的公開數據來分析"},{"start":10479.799,"end":10500.265,"text":"那麼他分析了呢 實際上上個月 3月份呢詐騙案件的這個數額與金額呢 皆是上個月就比照上個月 他都是大幅增加所以在這樣的一個情況之下詐騙集團的月收 月營收 甚至有突破70億元單日超過了2億元 單日就超過了2億元"},{"start":10505.407,"end":10527.934,"text":"所以呢 在這樣的情況之下 台灣的奇蹟呢是讓人家覺得很奇怪 而且民眾不安心所以本席在這邊請教副局長也就是民間的認知 跟你們所努力的這一些的情況 似乎有很大的落差那在這個情況之下呢 到底它主要的原因是什麼 請教說明"},{"start":10530.15,"end":10554.576,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那這一點跟委員做報告那我們打炸的確對國人同胞造成很大的傷害那如果從數據所以我們張署長上任以來很大的破例就是做了打炸儀表板就是將我們國人同胞一天一個月所受的財損"},{"start":10556.529,"end":10582.708,"text":"很正確的公諸於世也是警惕我們的民眾所以我們113年一天的財損就將近4億一天所以整個113年可能到1300億左右這是一個很正確的數字沒有任何的隱瞞那今年114年開始因為經過一段時間大家的想方設法"},{"start":10583.564,"end":10606.096,"text":"那透過國外透過刑事局的國際科對外的打擊跟國內我們做了試炸提醒我們的民眾減少接受到炸機的損害所以我們目前已經降到這個月已經降到70億左右"},{"start":10606.843,"end":10634.531,"text":"就單日七十一左右這個月就單月七十一左右跟去年來做比較有大幅的減少將近三分之一那我們還是會持續的來推動試炸試炸這個工作在對外的主動的供給這一部分我們在刑事局還是非常努力不懈的也是希望然後我們透過跟大陸的聯繫希望境外"},{"start":10635.728,"end":10652.19,"text":"的打炸這一部分能夠做好就是兩岸的共打這一部分能夠有效的來控制炸機的傷害那很重要的一部分應該是打炸國家隊我們讓民眾減少受到炸機的訊息"},{"start":10655.311,"end":10678.59,"text":"這一點非常重要因為我們雖然有看到這個數字去年這樣比較起來但是目前的額度還是非常的大你也同意說目前的額度還是非常大還是影響到民眾的生活所以我們必須要精準打擊讓這個成效能夠讓民眾來安心這是非常的重要加油 謝謝謝謝 謝委員好 我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":10696.462,"end":10720.328,"text":"好謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部"},{"start":10724.898,"end":10738.928,"text":"來啊各位部會首長啊那麼因為這次的國安法的修正呢零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在呢嗯各版本來看到的好那麼我們做了一下了解好那"},{"start":10739.608,"end":10764.149,"text":"未来恐怕包含下载向大陆的手游或者是参加这个什么淘宝啊或者他们网站的一些双11的活动还有呢未来和大陆的这个只要跟他们的官方有关的活动甚至包含比如我们台北市的双城论坛或者是啊你所谓针对不特定人来发展组织啊"},{"start":10764.549,"end":10787.235,"text":"就是他等於說有交付再交付那譬如說這位這個盛楚英這位助理已經涉及了他涉嫌共諜那只要有跟他有所接觸的都有可能違反相關的這個國安法如果按照現在的各個版本可以算是一個包山包海"},{"start":10788.055,"end":10814.531,"text":"然後對非常多的社團對非常多的個人可能他不小心他就觸法而且那違反的是相關的國安法那我想請教一下那麼但是我們這樣一個包山包海的國安法那請問一下我們的主管機關到底是哪一個主管機關我想請問一下陸委會我們是國安法的主管機關嗎"},{"start":10816.468,"end":10835.654,"text":"報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的 是包含原來我們所查到資料法務部是嘛 對不對"},{"start":10836.674,"end":10847.122,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":10852.766,"end":10877.332,"text":"這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密那所以我想請問一下如果說法務部能不能告訴我"},{"start":10878.092,"end":10898.356,"text":"那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有述发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足"},{"start":10898.956,"end":10922.263,"text":"這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌"},{"start":10923.39,"end":10944.06,"text":"好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢"},{"start":10944.754,"end":10963.632,"text":"各位委員包括因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中"},{"start":10964.212,"end":10992.588,"text":"目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候"},{"start":10993.769,"end":11006.511,"text":"會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會"},{"start":11007.54,"end":11029.198,"text":"就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎"},{"start":11031.55,"end":11060.103,"text":"我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他"},{"start":11061.373,"end":11063.306,"text":"因為他只是參與 他不是發起人"},{"start":11064.349,"end":11073.572,"text":"最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動搖堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇"},{"start":11094.478,"end":11099.442,"text":"雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止囉"},{"start":11122.582,"end":11145.172,"text":"並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情"},{"start":11145.832,"end":11172.562,"text":"就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分那因為國安法是刑法的問題"},{"start":11173.362,"end":11190.257,"text":"所以他其實老實講他的運用範圍是比較窄所以他應該更加嚴謹對不對他應該更加的嚴謹因為他確實刑罰的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這點是應該是最高的指導原則我已經放心不會謝謝"},{"start":11196.394,"end":11225.194,"text":"好登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林楚英陳冠廷黃建斌丁學中所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會好討論事項所列議案令定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}