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次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「針對國軍各類型火藥原物料購案，廠商資格標準訂定及審認作法」，併請經濟部、行政院公共工程委員會、法務部廉政署列席，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.6340937500000001,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.20721875,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.73034375,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.15096875,"end":177.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.26846875,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.00596875000002,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":188.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.66096875000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.13346875000002,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.97659375,"end":213.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.26346875000002,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.49846875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.88659375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.84721875000002,"end":231.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.11721875,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.07346875000002,"end":241.34346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.34346875000003,"end":242.60909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.98034375,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.24596875,"end":244.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.26284375,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.25784375,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.73034375,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.88471875,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.01971875000004,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.18409375000005,"end":263.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.97284375000004,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.96409375,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.58721875000003,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.71284375,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.13471875,"end":286.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.24346875000003,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.21346875,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.49159375,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.92971875,"end":297.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.07721875000004,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.32159375000003,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.90409375,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.47721875,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.11409375,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.02471875000003,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.21846875,"end":345.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.95159375000003,"end":348.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.73159375,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.69346875,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.96346875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.02659375,"end":352.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.23721875,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.39659375,"end":361.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.03346875,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.37034375,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.84659375,"end":370.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.37784375,"end":378.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.35596875000005,"end":377.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.00971875000005,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.92909375000005,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.14409375,"end":383.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.51534375,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.16471875,"end":386.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.02909375,"end":452.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.61409375000005,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.63471875000005,"end":456.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.66846875000005,"end":459.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.80346875000004,"end":456.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.84096875,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.86596875000004,"end":462.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.32971875000004,"e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謝謝好 請顧部長是 沈偉永好 部長那今天因為其實國防部有一些議題我也想繼續追但是因為今天排的這個議題也是至關重要就是跟這一個火藥炸藥的原物料的這個進出口的事項所以"},{"start":24.833,"end":49.767,"text":"第一個我認為就是說我們對於這個採購的這個流程還有我們要怎麼去做驗收這些事情原本都很重要也很值得在立法院討論但我個人是覺得就是現在因為它是週末出來的這個消息那整個週末其實討論的方向說真的很歪就變成說讓我們民眾接收到的這種跟國防相關的資訊我覺得會有很大的偏差"},{"start":50.607,"end":66.248,"text":"因為我知道這個媒體報導就很喜歡講說這家廠商原本可能是做什麼的他怎麼可以去拿這樣的一個標案等等之類的但是第一個我是想說當然很多人會提到過往合成做這個衛浴相關的他也會去拿這些抗蛋板"},{"start":66.926,"end":90.367,"text":"那如果大家對這個韓國這個南華集團有一定認知的話他做的是保險做的是百貨公司相關的這些產業但他現在也是重要的韓國的這個K9自走炮的這個出口商還有像這一個我們這一個失華弱勢期嘛大家的認知就是做水晶賣這個水晶做得很漂亮但他同樣的他的集團也有做狙擊槍的這個狙擊晶"},{"start":92.108,"end":110.454,"text":"所以就是說呢目前這種在雙用通用的這個狀況之下現在越來越多這種民間的企業它會加入它會到這一個軍事產業裡面所以如果我們從這個角度切入我會認為說就是我們反而一直在傳遞給民眾一個錯誤的一個國防的常識"},{"start":111.534,"end":140.067,"text":"尤其是我們現在要加入飛鴻供應鏈但是不代表這個議題不值得討論就是說在這個議題裡面我個人在看這個議題的時候我反而會覺得說反而是投標的廠商因為其實投標的廠商最後因為第一次是流標嘛 對不對然後第二次最後也就只有他而已所以我反而是想問說為什麼就只有他投就是說其他的人能夠去做這件事情的人照理說在台灣也是大有人在啊"},{"start":140.467,"end":167.427,"text":"那他今天你说跟需要取得出口或者进口相关的许可这件事情我觉得应该有很多厂商都有能力做得到那是不是因为他认为说他今天来做这个国家的标案他觉得他吃亏啊他觉得在他的商业利益上不符合啊会有各式各样的因素那是不是是否可以针对这一点就是说为什么今天来投标的厂商只有一家这件事情是不是可以做一个简短的说明"},{"start":168.257,"end":183.6,"text":"跟委員報告主要就是因為這個火藥原物料都是各國他們往往要優先滿足自身的需求他會嚴格一個輸出管制的規定所以重點就是在於你要在投標之前"},{"start":184.681,"end":212.576,"text":"你應該要有辦法拿得到當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件不然的話你一旦沒有辦法履約你就會面臨非常嚴重的一個後果這個就是我們合約訂定的一個最主要的精神所以他必須要思考好他有沒有履約能力因為他要來投標他就要繳交3%的押標金然後之後得了標之後他要繳交預算金額5%的履約保證金"},{"start":213.567,"end":225.335,"text":"那這個交貨其實就是一個一翻兩瞪眼的東西也就是說他今天如果拿不到輸出許可證明文件他就沒辦法交貨然後接下來他還要去拿到原廠的證明"},{"start":226.111,"end":238.598,"text":"然後等等的這些然後相關文件之後他還要能夠運抵台灣然後運抵台灣之後我要馬上交給我們的專業譬如說我們這一次是軍備局205場那205場就要進行這個檢驗當檢驗過了我們才會付款那如果他檢驗不過"},{"start":247.694,"end":264.45,"text":"那他履歷保證要被沒收他履歷保證沒有說不但被沒收他要遭受庭權的處分所以他有辦法能夠達到這些相關的當地政府的輸出區域證明文件才會來有意願"},{"start":266.381,"end":289.113,"text":"來進行投標因為他這個時候要思考他有沒有最後有沒有辦法能力履約這個就是現在的一個我們之所以認為不需要去訂定一些其他的資格條件因為他只要能夠從事國際貿易那麼他能夠拿得到當地輸出的許可證明文件拿到原廠的證明然後確保品質安全無虞"},{"start":290.362,"end":299.402,"text":"我們這個時候才會付款所以他每個人來投標的時候他都是要先衡量自己有沒有這樣的旅遊能力"},{"start":300.424,"end":323.27,"text":"好 謝謝部長就是說因為這件事情對我來講就是說剛剛整個的流程從他取得相關的證明到他必須要履約等等之類我相信205在做這個驗收的時候一定會非常的嚴格我想說這個都不是什麼問題但是我們是希望就假設我們今天希望我們的國防有更多的這些民間的產業能夠來加入的時候我們希望能夠看到的是更多的廠商來投"},{"start":324.73,"end":352.53,"text":"對不對然後更多廠商來投那表示跟委員報告我們為了這個我們去清查了過去20年所有這些關於當然除了軍備局有生產之外國內廠商沒有產能的這些所謂內購外貨的方式也就是去然後我們都按政府採購法來辦理公開招標我們的資格我們要求的資格20年來沒有任何的改變就是"},{"start":354.278,"end":365.073,"text":"合法的公司設立登記第二個有納稅的證明第三個他有從事國際貿易業的營業項目就是三個20年來清查了幾十個案子"},{"start":366.448,"end":387.654,"text":"沒有任何的改變我們就是要廣增商源讓所有有能力的人都不會因為受到這些門檻而受到不當的限制而事實上他能夠交貨才是整個問題的重點所以我在這裡講我們不能夠劃錯重點我們的重點是我們要能夠讓這個購案能夠執行成功"},{"start":391.275,"end":415.967,"text":"好 感謝部長就是我剛剛也提到就是說重點就是最後能不能履約它如果不能夠履約的話它也會有相關它的牙標件會不會沒收啊等等之類的話它會有遭受到這些不利益那我們希望的就是說在未來的時候有更多的這樣的一些不管是通用的廠商或者說國際貿易的廠商因為畢竟現在非紅供應鏈是我們非常重要的一個目標越來越多的民間能夠加入到這整體的產業來講我們應該是樂見才對"},{"start":418.396,"end":424.879,"text":"那接下來因為這個時間的因素我可能沒有辦法問全部的問題但是我在12月1號的時候有質詢過這個空軍所以這個呢空軍那個時候呢就是我們那時候是在討論就是說到底為什麼說這一個大三的時候結果體檢出問題的人變多對不對"},{"start":436.585,"end":452.557,"text":"那時候我們有討論過好幾個可能不同的因素我們說我們先不要下結論那在這一次呢其實因為我想說也要讓公眾知道其實空軍這邊是有來調相關資料的而且看起來好像也知道比較確切的原因所以是不是能趁這個時候跟國人說明一下"},{"start":453.686,"end":481.759,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟委員做簡單的報告那這個看起來他的比例就是畢業前飛行生不及格比例越來越高的原因是因為我們在以前全部是飛行生所以說他佔的比例就是百分之百一開始就是佔百分之百但是現在因為我們因應很多近視他想加入空軍的這些專才生也一併招進來所以說競效的時候他的飛行生的比例本來就低那"},{"start":482.939,"end":506.89,"text":"專才生的比例就大概佔了四分之一所以一進來他就是佔的比例就飛行生佔的比例本來就很低所以說你只要有一些不及格的佔比他就看起來會比較高的原因在這所以說專才生我們從110年開始陸陸續續就招了比較多大概在將近四分之一的這個專才生進入空軍官校所以看起來比例是比較高"},{"start":507.35,"end":524.098,"text":"但事實上它的常態畢業前飛行生不及格的比例大概都在8%以內這個沒有改變對 因為我有看到你們詳細的數據就簡單來講因為這個是專才跟飛行生都加入的進去如果是我們把它拆開的話就發現在飛行生這邊其實是算穩定的"},{"start":524.398,"end":546.517,"text":"其實沒有比較高對所以這個我覺得很重要我用這個例子我也是想要強調就是說假設今天是有人在網路上拿到這樣的一個數據他可能就馬上鋪天蓋地的開始攻擊說什麼你看我們的沒有人想要當兵了沒有人想要來當飛官了因為中國的威脅什麼等等之類如果說今天這一個謠言一旦出去的話其實對國軍一定是傷"},{"start":547.378,"end":574.531,"text":"所以我們在第一時間我們要怎麼回應要怎麼樣讓這個謠言能夠直寫其實是非常重要的就用這個來當作一個例子我們今天在討論這個案子其實也是一樣一開始就是它已經就被定調說這一個這個什麼條件看起來不符合的廠商他為什麼會做這樣的事情但其實我們從剛剛國際的例子或者說我們從國內這20年來我們招標的方式我們沒有改變我們這幾件事情其實應該要在第一時間的時候就要做回應"},{"start":575.131,"end":590.536,"text":"那不然的話你看整個週末這樣燒然後一直到今天這樣有這樣的一個專報我們變成說在今天這個時間才有辦法很精準的跟國人說明的時候他的謠言可能已經燒了三天OK 我覺得這個這個都會有傷啦 這都會有傷那很感謝空軍吊這個相關的資料讓我們解開這個疑惑那"},{"start":593.635,"end":608.448,"text":"接下來就是這一個這個我可能只能快速問一下就是我可能下次再繼續問詳細的細節就是我們這個第五級的這個保全人員做這個關鍵基礎設施這個防護目前我看到就是之前有做一個盤點說大概需要多少人"},{"start":609.438,"end":635.485,"text":"我們看到光是北部好像就需要大概200多人中部需要100多南部需要多少我看加起來大概500人因為現在他們還要他這個資格有限定對不對這個人應該很清楚就是說他可能是比如說他是特種的部隊退的又或者說他是軍人退伍的他才有辦法去做這個這個資格有限定而且我們國家還會幫忙做授訓這個都是好事"},{"start":636.005,"end":658.079,"text":"但是因為我們看今年這個受訓的資料看起來就是受訓的這個人數感覺還達不到我們現在需求的人數但我看薪水也不差對不對這個薪水看起來是五萬多這個薪水也不差所以就是這一件事情現在有點人數不足那我們要怎麼樣讓這個量能趕快趕上這件事情是否可以簡短的說明一下就好因為時間已經到了我想"},{"start":663.141,"end":681.592,"text":"現在主要是說他們這些第五級的保全人員他有要求一些授訓的時數而且要有一些特殊的經驗那這些保全的人員他到底能不能夠去納入他們的這個特種防護團的邊組這可能是一個關鍵"},{"start":683.113,"end":705.968,"text":"那這個可能是要問一下內政部因為內政部在有關這個民防法相關的規範在規範那些有關這個民防總隊特種防護團聯合防護團這個相關的規定所以如果他把它納入這個特種防護團的話那而且才能夠納入這個"},{"start":709.298,"end":731.5,"text":"民防法相當規定可以認為免緩招的一個對象那如果是這樣子的話是不是才有一個足夠的誘因然後同時他要能夠在這個防護特種防護塔裡面扮演一個什麼樣的角色基於他的經驗他的授訓的時數那如果能夠納入這樣整體的考量的話"},{"start":732.401,"end":745.858,"text":"應該才會有比較高的誘因因為這個誘因是我們之前討論過所以部長直接回答到一個重點就是說因為我們會來跟內政部溝通如果他能夠在這一個防護團的這個定義裡面的話他在這個叫召的時候他就不會有雙重的這個義務"},{"start":747.239,"end":771.828,"text":"那可能也對於因為裡面的人可能會抱怨說為什麼做這個又要做那一個所以在這件事情之下或許可以讓更多人知道有這樣的一個工作的機會所以我覺得因為畢竟上我們現在會有量能需求的問題那我們要怎麼去提高誘因它看起來它的薪水的福利是已經在那邊了有沒有其他的誘因能夠去提供的話我覺得這是至關重要的一點因為時間因素我可能就先問到這裡謝謝好 謝謝 謝偉"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}