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請彭部長有請彭部長稍微好稍等一下時間可不可以暫停一下 等一下簡報OK好 部長 首先先看第一張圖我想要請問一下"},{"start":29.315,"end":43.252,"text":"你看這張圖垃圾山你覺得很嚴重嗎這當然嚴重啊很嚴重喔部長你知道這是哪裡嗎這全世界都有很多這樣的地方好那下一頁部長剛剛這個確實不是我國的垃圾山喔"},{"start":44.09,"end":65.558,"text":"可是剛剛那個是印度的垃圾山可是你可以看到我們現在這張圖喔右邊的是竹東垃圾山更確切的說看起來像是一個垃圾瀑布看起來是不是有點相似看起來是不是很觸目驚心是嘛那但是你們今年5月的時候說已經號稱說清理完畢喔但根據環保組織的實際勘察"},{"start":68.459,"end":91.161,"text":"下一頁發現他其實只是縮水了還沒有清理完了那甚至污水還不斷的滲入到頭前溪的流域那新竹市跟竹北市約有60萬的居民的水源當中請問這部分部長是否了解有這個這個我也到現場看過那委員這個部分的話是不是請我們署長來說他的這個"},{"start":93.162,"end":108.159,"text":"相委員報告原來它確實有垃圾瀑布的現象它也是水源區所以竹東廠是我們第一個要解決的當時已經把所有的這些垃圾瀑布都完成清除之後"},{"start":108.559,"end":137.091,"text":"那現在在右邊這張圖是他原來的這一個掩埋場的部分那後來這一個部分我們有要求要完成復必完全清理完成完全復育啦復育完畢要復土對啊那現在呢現在是已經全部清完了嗎這個是要整理好之後復土然後再直升我的意思是說現在所有的垃圾現場已經沒有任何的垃圾嗎"},{"start":137.891,"end":160.903,"text":"他應該是說他會完成護浴不會說完全沒有垃圾但是他在他的掩埋區裡面會有好的設備包含不透水布跟他的污水都會收到他左下角這污水處理廠來做妥善的處理那原則上這個護浴完畢之後那污水就很少會再生出了以上"},{"start":161.303,"end":184.758,"text":"我想要問的事情是水現場是你沒有說完全沒有垃圾是還是有垃圾的 是的還是有垃圾 現在還是有垃圾它是掩埋 這個把它掩埋蓋過去 對但是它的水不會再跑出去就是在那裡讓它 讓它穩定化原則上一個掩埋場的穩定化大概要20年的時間那這20年的時間 它的水不會再出去"},{"start":185.538,"end":199.288,"text":"所以你們現在相關的處置都已經確定好了都已經處置好了好因為部長問這題就是因為你在去年上任的時候其實你對於垃圾山新百岳你也表達說很震驚喔那你承諾剛剛你的報告有講到2026年底會全數解決"},{"start":203.712,"end":226.372,"text":"這部分的目標有沒有改變還是你是有信心提前解決當然必須說我們原先希望年底要到40萬噸現在是變60因為今年的天災特別多所以我們目前呢我們也在跟我們的同仁確認過我說很挑戰啦但是我們還是有信心可以把它完成但是我說委員那個有透過掩埋打包方式能夠不要裸露的露出來這個是我們的目標"},{"start":227.699,"end":248.125,"text":"因為部長你在執行承諾的時候其實你有設立了一個全國裸露堆製垃圾妥善處理監控平台是那貌似能夠讓民眾快速且及時了解進度喔但我們可以看一下這個圖喔你可以看到這個圖說的事情叫做到115年的6月你就會完全的歸零所以你可以提前半年達標嗎"},{"start":249.915,"end":278.476,"text":"而且你退一步來說這個撇除目標線不看喔其實你現在的實際進度實際進度也只有27%多你的實際跟目標曲線離非常的遠所以換句話說每個月要大概要增加45%的目標比例這真的有辦法達到嗎還是說其實你這個頁面是拿出來供參考的樣板而已啊因為我剛才說過就是說原來我們希望是40例如說年底到40但是今年多了20"},{"start":279.477,"end":293.213,"text":"所以60幾所以這個部分我們現在要很努力啦所以部長就是因為看起來這個差距非常大但是你還是信誓旦旦覺得明年可以完成然後你做的這個網頁告訴大家的還是一樣到現在是110你們設定變成115年的6月就可以"},{"start":297.057,"end":314.267,"text":"完成你們的目標耶那部長這個部分究竟是拿出來好看的還是你真的可以達到包委員我剛我的圖裡面有列出來哪些縣市是沒有做到的哪些縣市已經完成的部長這是你整個環境部的目標嘛這個是我們把他的所有的資本把它加起來"},{"start":314.687,"end":337.526,"text":"那的確我們現在大概只有 還有剩下60多萬噸對嘛 那我就是問你說因為你照你們的官方出來的圖你告訴本席的 說是你給國人看到的叫做你115年6月可以完成嘛是是那所以我剛剛不斷的在跟你確認這件事情你是可以提前完成嗎你本來說明年底嘛但是你的網路上面又說出 又看到你是目標就是在"},{"start":338.487,"end":362.103,"text":"明年的六月完成 然後你的實際值又離得這麼遠本席很疑慮 很憂慮啊 我很擔心你根本達不到啊包委員 這個圖是我們跟這個地方政府協調當時我們希望是115年底 但是取乎其喪 得乎其從 我們希望能夠"},{"start":364.852,"end":383.119,"text":"所以你往前設定了半年半年那這個在去年已經把所有12億的經費都已經合下去那很多因為花包的關係花包完成之後它的進度就會相當的快那今年我們還會大概1.2億再補助下去"},{"start":383.379,"end":412.284,"text":"好 所以希望在115年底能夠完成所以部長你們這裡意思就是說你們確定可以明年6月完成啦因為你的網站出現是這樣嘛是 你說發包下去就可以完成了齁是 那請部長信守承諾喔明年的6月第一個我們把各個縣市的環保局局長都一起來我們來共同面對這個問題所以這個基本上是大家一起努力啦那我必須說有一些縣市像我覺得目標跟實際要做到的真的是要一起來努力啦我也相信部長很用心但是"},{"start":412.924,"end":433.09,"text":"你們看起來我看到這個曲線是非常憂心啊所以請你們一定要務實的如果你回答說你們可以做到那本席就在這裡反正記錄下來你們可以做到這樣子是我們會努力我們會努力但是就是說現在當然我必須有一個條件明年拜託不要像今年這麼多的大型的天災多了20萬噸那個就壓力就來了"},{"start":433.51,"end":460.911,"text":"所以這個基本上這個部分是需要也希望委員給我們多一點支持啦好 部長請這個反正加油 一起努力啊看到這樣子希望明年中的時候可以看到真正達標喔部長那我們也都知道如果不從源頭改善的話垃圾跟這些廢棄都很難處理啊那這也是部長的核心主張包含修法加嚴管理還有加重刑責的部分喔可是其實今天你也說到這個法其實很奇怪五月你送到行政院喔"},{"start":461.491,"end":490.678,"text":"那到底什麼時候會出來啊就是後來九月送到行政院後就沒有消息了你們預告完之後所以現在到底什麼時候會出來可不可以給本席一個時間包委員我剛才特別說我們大概十月多正式送行政院那也開了非常多次的會跨部會的去協調那目前的消息是即將我只能說即將即將到底是什麼時候快要了快要了快要了是一月初我是希望如果說拼一下年底或是說到一月初"},{"start":491.078,"end":514.332,"text":"好 所以希望年底 你認為年底拚一下年底可以出來因為最晚1月初會出來對對對 最晚最晚1月初啦目前目前我們的成果還不錯啦但是因為這個要行政院的決定因為部長今年截至12月4號為止全台已經累積至少24起類似垃圾掩埋場跟戰事場發生火警的狀況所以包含台南花蓮澎湖等地方"},{"start":515.834,"end":529.965,"text":"那起火雖然你會說有氣候異常乾燥啦或者是大量廢棄物混合堆製導致發酵啊好然後背後其實主要的原因還是跟垃圾越堆越多嘛去化量能不足啊然後還有這個賞罰不足"},{"start":532.088,"end":557.379,"text":"你說的蘿蔔跟棒子都還沒有上線啊所以你現在立法空窗期越久本席越擔心這樣的事情就越拖越久會造成極大的危害好所以請部長趕快好不好請行政院趕快出來好好謝謝好那下一題我這裡這個部分要請這個我們國防部的軍備局跟國防採購室的傷情綜合處的代表上台好不好"},{"start":560.933,"end":562.074,"text":"部長你可以先休息一下好"},{"start":574.827,"end":592.269,"text":"你好我想要問一下這個RDX這個炸藥是聯合國規範這個0072中class1.1D的高爆炸藥威力是TNT的1.5倍我想請問一下國防部的代表知道這種高危險性的炸藥也是化學品"},{"start":593.05,"end":602.06,"text":"所以即便國防部開了這次的標案也必須要有專業且有經驗的承包商才可能完成那這一次的標案中為何要求僅要求廠商具備國際貿易業這種沒有毫無專門的這個門檻的一般資格"},{"start":611.229,"end":633.512,"text":"那依照政府採購法第36條對於如此高風險的巨額採購為何沒有訂定需具備危險品運輸時機或者是擁有合格防爆倉儲的特定資格就讓一家室內裝修公司得標那國防部是認為 是不是認為說處理這個高爆炸藥跟進口壁紙的專業度是一樣的"},{"start":635.404,"end":650.937,"text":"報委員跟委員說明一下事實上我們在這訂定這個廠商的時候是我們是考量到了以往毀壓類的購案的投標廠商的資格是循網利訂定合法設立或登記的一個證明還有營業項目包含了國際貿易業跟納稅證明等三項的資格並確保廠商具有進出口"},{"start":658.404,"end":668.624,"text":"貨品 供送的能力另外我們為了確保廠商的投標具有誠意的一個參標不是難道你們不會擔心他在運送的過程中造成任何的問題和危險嗎"},{"start":671.235,"end":690.738,"text":"幫委員跟委員報告一下針對廠商得標貨我們會依據經濟部定班的貨品輸入的管理辦法規定辦理限制性的一個貨品的一個輸入的申請獲得進口我想要請問一下這個廠商他有沒有有沒有具備這個危險品運輸的時機或是擁有合格的防爆倉儲"},{"start":692.686,"end":721.657,"text":"跟委員報一下事實上他們在運輸的過程中在陸上運輸的時候都會依據道路安全你沒有回答我的問題啊他有沒有運輸的這種具備危險品運輸的時機或者是擁有合格防暴倉儲的特定資格他有沒有他有沒有這部分的資格或是曾經的這個時機這個在審標的時候是並沒有在那個審標的那你們不覺得你們審標有問題嗎我跟你說啊好再來請交通部的代表你們剛好說運輸嘛好交通部的代表"},{"start":738.597,"end":759.629,"text":"交通部代表跟國防部代表都在台上請問一下交通部的代表根據國際海運危險貨物的章程第一點三章 岸上處理人員是不是需要受過危險品的培訓然後另外是要問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員報告委員 那個"},{"start":764.98,"end":789.772,"text":"在運輸方面來講的話在我們那個貨運廠 貨運城啦還有那個傳播運送業這個接觸相關的危險品的這個貨品的時候他們都要有相關的證照對 很好 需要嘛對不對 需要有相關證照 謝謝交通部所以我問一下國防部的代表這福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員"},{"start":793.567,"end":810.863,"text":"如果沒有的話他們要如何判讀原廠的安全資料表那要怎麼確保在該批炸藥在海上運輸或港口裝卸的時候符合國際的隔離規範還是國防部覺得看到貨送到就好過程中的公共安全風險全由全民負擔"},{"start":811.824,"end":836.697,"text":"報告委員這個到時候廠商在交貨的時候我們的需求單位就是軍備局的第二領武廠他們會有一個火工專業的檢運人員來全程陪同那把這個東西運送到需求單位去所以這個廠商不需要符合這些東西之後國防部會幫忙處理他只要把貨運進來就好了然後所以認可一個國際貿易的代表只要這個公司符合國際貿易的資格他都可以標到這個表案"},{"start":838.644,"end":863.434,"text":"國防部外表跟你說目前我想同時間外交部 貴交國防委員會這個他們也應該也會針對此事做檢討但是相信標案的爭議性的細節會有更深入的探討但本席在這裡是要針對這樣的做法會對於環境跟人民產生公共安全危險提出質疑尤其最近什麼貝魯特大爆炸 天津大爆炸等等的案件陰間不遠"},{"start":864.514,"end":885.806,"text":"我希望國防部不論基於什麼原因做這種不合理的操作不能夠放棄對於公共安全的重視否則你在那邊採購武器說要保護人民會不會就讓國人根本沒有為盟其利先受其害請你們回去我請那個環境部部長上台一下"},{"start":889.986,"end":904.449,"text":"部長 這個RDX也是環山亞甲基酸硝胺那它在美國國家環境保護局被列為C級的致癌物也就是強效的神經毒素它對於地下水的污染也極其嚴重"},{"start":905.47,"end":924.288,"text":"那這一次的採購是由民間的室內裝修公司進口他也不是軍方直接運輸我想要請問一下化學署這批劇毒化學品進入台灣環境部有沒有掌握那他是不是有在我們毒性及關注的化學物質的列管名單中"},{"start":926.683,"end":946.821,"text":"這裡跟委員報告有關這個環山亞甲基三硝胺目前不是我們環境部所列管的毒性極關注化學物質所以沒有的話 目前沒有沒有的話那環境部是不是要長期放任這種軍用的毒物在民間隨意存放流竄而毫無監管呢"},{"start":948.403,"end":962.825,"text":"這個部分還是要由國防部因為其實在我們的一個獨管法的一個範疇裡面大概比較偏重的是管這些工業跟民生的相關的這一些的物質或者是這些物品好了所以這個時候就發生問題喔"},{"start":963.926,"end":986.487,"text":"這時候就發生問題了如果RDX在陸運的過程中發生這個犯覆啊 洩漏啊 它的毒性會迅速穿透土壤 污染 地下水那請問你們有沒有需要去跟國防部溝通喔在運輸的過程中有沒有什麼通報機制會告訴環境部然後如果針對這個RDX的洩漏處理有沒有標準作業流程"},{"start":987.248,"end":1014.265,"text":"那再者就是如果消防員不知道這是水溶性的毒物而且大量涉水的時候他會造成周邊的環境跟水源永久的污染請問誰要負責如果只能夠追蹤到追責到這個福邁公司的話這個公司的規模可以負個起完全負擔起這個賠償嗎本席剛剛問到現在就是這個問題請問對兩位點頭你們覺得是不是應該去跟國防部溝通你們現在是不是沒有這個機制"},{"start":1016.366,"end":1043.193,"text":"那個跟委員報告那如果真的是發生了這一些事情那當然其實相關政府部門相關的各個部會的通報的機制就會來啟動不會啊你現在就沒有啊因為他如果對啊你如果運輸的過程中如果他已經傾倒你們都不知道他運輸了那發生了這個外洩難道他會這個那個當下趕快告訴你啟動嗎跟委員報告我剛剛說的是他不是目前讀管法的公告的"},{"start":1043.473,"end":1071.29,"text":"所以他現在不是嘛所以我才說因為不是所以如果現在不是你們又沒有去做這件事未來發生的這個狀況的話那你們要怎麼怎麼做管理跟委員報告以目前的機制來講即便他不是在政府部門有這樣的災害在在發生的時候都會進行相關單位的這一些的通報所以其實大家彼此之間都會有這些資訊上面的一個一個大家的交流"},{"start":1071.69,"end":1088.663,"text":"好所以你的意思是說我剛剛說如果發生這個狀況現場消防員到現場他一定會知道他是水溶性的毒物然後就不大量涉水你可以確保這件事跟委員報告這個部分是這樣因為這個RDX我們有一個那個資訊中心化學物質的資訊中心"},{"start":1091.485,"end":1107.155,"text":"這個資訊中心它通報之後就會立即的去把這個物質的這些物性跟化性的資料都把它抓出來然後我們就會透過我們的相關的群組跟我們的系統去通報所以換句話說你認為這個部分的洩漏處理是有作業標準的"},{"start":1108.395,"end":1127.083,"text":"有SOP的相關的化學物質的我們的諮詢後面的這一些的一個諮詢可是你剛剛沒有列管那個你說的那個部分那個中心還是會有管理到這個RTX是 還會有還是會有今天有列管的情形是他有這個責任如果有我們有公告的話他有這個責任從源頭那運輸"},{"start":1130.424,"end":1144.64,"text":"以及後面的這一些的一個去向全部都要在我們的法定的系統在我們環境部的法定系統裡面去做申報所以現在他這個有申報嗎這個沒有因為他不是我們的公告的"},{"start":1145.501,"end":1167.187,"text":"跟部長說其實根據毒物跟化學物質局發布RDX相關的宣導資料美國多個軍事基地都有受到RDX的污染例如什麼朱利業軍事彈藥廠啊它是經典案例那該廠呢因為長期製造保含RDX內的彈藥導致周邊的土壤跟地下水嚴重污染"},{"start":1167.887,"end":1194.105,"text":"那美國環保署也在1995年的5月把它列為超級基金長職要進行整治耗時了13年才完全復育那既然這批原料將就是長期在這個可能台灣的國內的冰工廠使用環境部就應該要針對這個部分去做相關的配套包含著有沒有要去檢查說這個部如果儲存RDX附近"},{"start":1194.545,"end":1222.273,"text":"它周邊的地下水土壤是不是要進行這些的調查或是背景值的調查部長我要提醒你們的是這個事情好 所以目前這個RDX主要被視為爆炸物是受經濟部的事業用的爆炸物的管理條例或者是國防部的法規管理但是它的毒性特質完全符合要關注化學物質的定義所以這部分環境部已經公告數百種的關注化學物質但是對於RDX這種"},{"start":1224.193,"end":1249.649,"text":"軍用的為主的物質喔都被你們都會說那是屬於國防部的權責沒有納入民視的環保監控的體系裡面所以這其實是有問題的也有危險存在的對於民間請環境部長去做跨部會的溝通好嗎好謝謝委員我們這個我們來研議一下因為我也去了解一下美國環保署如何處理這個問題好我們來研議一下謝謝謝謝廖委長 趙委長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}