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王委員我今天先不從個案來談我們先講一個大的架構就是說國防供應鏈我們一直希望能夠在台灣自給自足盡量的滿足因為這不僅是經濟跟產業這也牽涉到我們的戰備眾生所以怎麼樣把供應鏈的眾生擴大"},{"start":34.432,"end":52.017,"text":"這是一個命題但是擴大之後他來投標我們今天看到有人在資格上質疑有疑慮做這個怎麼做那個做馬桶的怎麼做抗氮板做裝潢的怎麼來做炸藥在資格上有人在這上面有疑慮那我們應該好好的面對這個問題"},{"start":53.717,"end":64.207,"text":"第一個我們在投標上我發現我們國防部在說明的是第一個基本條件叫做合法基本條件可能他的營業登記項目可能資本額"},{"start":65.27,"end":92.381,"text":"那部長也是法律人坦白講在台灣齁這個基本條件的符合比較容易啦那個有一個凱斯國際從國宅一路弄到進出口貿易都可以做你只要願意勾啦你去做營燈的時候你願意勾通通可以勾啦所以營業項目根本就不是可以刁難的就是造船的他搞不好可以去造飛機做成衣做內衣的他會去做數位迷彩做腳踏車輪框的"},{"start":94.127,"end":112.094,"text":"搞不好去做飛彈彈箱我現在講的都是有實質的案例做得不錯也就是說基本條件是一個最低的消極資格另外一個叫做專業條件現在被人家挑剔的是這一塊就是說他專業的條件到底有沒有符合所以我們應該要思考所謂的專業條件是什麼"},{"start":115.003,"end":142.564,"text":"合理的專業條件是什麼他就可以進入到這個產業我們可以擴大我們眾生我們希望原來在做機密機械的他可以來造飛機啊我們希望原來那個其實CNC車床齁要來做砲管做彈藥貴姊手娘啦他那個技術上是雷同的就是說我怎麼樣讓他跨過那個專業的門檻所以只看基本條件容易被人質疑專業不足那但是如果只重視過去時機"},{"start":144.994,"end":170.511,"text":"我都懷疑這次有人 怎麼這個 那個沒有做如果只重視過去的時機就犯了我們過去幾十年台灣的軍工業長期被同一群人把持價格高 品質差而且他根本不是自己做 他轉個手找別人來做我相信在這邊夠資深的或者資深的媒體記者應該都知道過去的軍工業就是那一群人然後投標資格交榜上過去五年內有沒有供應什麼 有沒有做什麼"},{"start":171.471,"end":185.359,"text":"連我們中科院那個塔台的東西齁只因為民航局加一個過去有時機就通通沒辦法處理所以這兩個要平衡我不知道部長有沒有認同我這樣講法就是說我們在建構戰略這個供應鏈的縱深它的重要性是什麼"},{"start":187.394,"end":201.133,"text":"我想就今天大家在質疑的這個案子它的一個重點就是說它不是屬於國內有自治產能的如果屬於有國內自治產能的譬如說我們通常會有一些工程的案子那我們就會要求它有時機"},{"start":202.935,"end":231.34,"text":"時機嘛 但是問題是這個不是有國內自治產這我們國內沒辦法做啦對 所以他的重點在條件上面來講也就是他在履約的時候他最重要最重要就是要拿到輸出國的輸出許可對 所以部長我現在要講的就這一塊專業條件要讓國人了解比方說我在國內的過去的實質的績效其實只能當指標一我建議軍備局可以我們本來就有防場制度嘛我們要確保都是made in Taiwan嘛"},{"start":232.626,"end":246.857,"text":"這家公司願意投入他有沒有買相關的機台有沒有取得相關技術的認證就是在國內的生產我去房產你根本就沒有啊你沒有機台你沒有這樣的材料你跟我說你賣的在台灣我都懷疑過減稅你知道嗎"},{"start":248.178,"end":262.099,"text":"從那邊繞到越南過來的所以我們本來現有機制就有國內生產過去有實質績效我們還要仿廠咧你的機台符不符合標準你的製程有沒有經過認證你的材料在哪裡取得的有沒有Made in China的材料這個是國內的"},{"start":263.621,"end":281.462,"text":"那我們在專業背景上應該要加上就是說如果是對外採購的輸出國的輸出許可這個其實屬於專業的部分那個輸出許可要拿到國務院認證沒那麼簡單輸出國的許可還有一種是比方說我們的F16或者我們一些像對美採購的軍品"},{"start":282.683,"end":308.401,"text":"它的維修、維保是要認證的有沒有取得原廠跟美方的認證或者我們跟某一國買的某一個機台有沒有取得該國的輸出許可該國的原廠的技術認證這個叫專業背景所以如果某公司過去可能做某個行業是跟軍工業無關可是發現這有商機他公司要擴大投資那我就要看在國內你有什麼機台你有什麼能量"},{"start":309.221,"end":335.009,"text":"你如果是要進口你有沒有輸出國的輸出許可你如果是進來的是技術跟服務你有沒有得到認證跟授權我這樣講應該沒錯嘛所以就是說我想以這個不同的這個方式我們有不同的這個有關的一些對他的一些履驗能力的一個審核所以我在這一頁我要提醒軍備局就是說不能全部只看過去的時機那會被少數人壟斷"},{"start":336.129,"end":363.813,"text":"可是你在開發新的供應商的時候一定要注意到他的能耐他的國內生產的量能跟原物料的來源如果是進口商的話他有沒有取得相關國家政府的認證許可等等這個叫做專業背景所以現在呢叫做這個岳飛打張飛嘛你就拿消極的基本條件去打專業條件做馬桶是哪裡對不起你祖上八代了啦"},{"start":366.175,"end":379.673,"text":"坐腳踏車的是哪裡做錯了為什麼要瞧不起這些行業呢所以我這邊第二頁就看了我後來去找了一下資料合成我們從小就知道合成是做馬桶做磁磚的啊可是合成現在做抗盪磚甲"},{"start":381.135,"end":392.883,"text":"人家有投入這樣的設備去做 做得好不好你們去驗 我不幫他背書或者像洪森 洪森是美方認為是世界一流的車業一般來做基準的呢 那我們現在講這個做漁船的怎麼跑來做軍艦的那個車業 那外行的嘛"},{"start":396.866,"end":422.89,"text":"或者像全訓 全訓呢 它是做半導體原件製造的它現在轉過來做相關功率的又比方說榮德造船 它本來是做客輪的 它現在做軍工的那另外我剛才提到的 有一家玩具公司啊我們小時候買玩具是買他們家的啊講他名字也沒關係啊 那個雷虎啊 雷虎是做玩具的啊做玩具的怎麼跑來做無人機 還要丟炸彈"},{"start":424.266,"end":450.883,"text":"那就荒謬嘛 人家已經轉型或者擴大增加產能我一樣 我提例子我對這些公司 行號 我們也沒有背書你們還是要依照專業去我只告訴說 台灣的中小企業很厲害啦以前埃及要買漁網做皮箱的 明天就做漁網啦以前跑到阿拉伯 飛機都不會坐阿拉伯我們不會講 在地上沙子上畫圖他就可以交鐵鎚給他彈性很高 但是我們軍方的採購不能看這個我剛才講"},{"start":453.188,"end":468.628,"text":"他的專業的成分有沒有具備所以像剛才講某一個腳踏車做輪框的做輪框的我也是在媒體撈到這家這家公司做輪框的現在他用那個特殊材質做我們的飛彈箱做得不錯啊"},{"start":469.713,"end":496.64,"text":"所以這裡面重點在哪裡呢有一些行業是從本業延伸擴大比方說原來合成是做陶瓷他把本業往前延伸做抗盪陶瓷這叫本業延伸有的叫跨業投資本來呢我是做這一個比方說本來呢像我來舉個例子比方說像全訓原來做的是半導體他現在轉過來做這一項"},{"start":499.241,"end":510.197,"text":"舉個另外跟我們行業無關的像台塑 它是做塑膠的啊可是廠跟醫院我們都知道是台塑的我們現在要不要開個記者會這塑膠要看人家貴心中啦"},{"start":512.155,"end":540.903,"text":"罔顧人命你不會被笑死嗎他跨業我們要看的是什麼我們要看的是他的產品跟服務有沒有符合買方的需求有沒有達標價格及技術是否具備競爭優勢我們如果是看資格的那就要看他的資格限制如果是比價的就是看價格有沒有比人家低大概就看這兩個我們是買方我不管你原來做什麼行業的你的消極資格符合你的專業背景的資格有取得輸出許可"},{"start":541.223,"end":566.262,"text":"那就來比價啊 你敢押標啊你沒辦法履約的話我就要沒收你幾千萬的押標金啊我確保買方 也就是軍方消費者可以買到合格的 達標的甚至於相對品質比較好或相對價格比較低的這才叫做一個完整的採購鏈我們才能去建構台灣不同行業要跨界去進入到軍工業建構我們的軍工供應鏈戰備眾生我不知道我這樣講部長認不認同"},{"start":568.203,"end":586.179,"text":"所以不同的這個我想相關的公安有不同的履歷能力的要求那我還是再次強調原物料的從國外進口的他重點就在於說他能不能拿到當地政府的這個輸出許可的一個證明而且拿到這個原廠製造的證明文件那個叫做專業背景嗎"},{"start":586.959,"end":611.052,"text":"對 那這個拿得到我想他才會可能來進行投標因為他不然會面臨無法履約的風險這些個案我們原來也都沒有去探究啦是有人提出來我們才去看喔好 他原來做什麼行業他到底是本業延伸或者多角化跨業投資我管你投資什麼重要是我要跟你買的時候你交付的東西合不合我的要求有沒有具備專業背景而專業背景 國內製造背景"},{"start":613.653,"end":631.127,"text":"進出口商有進出口商的專業要求嘛所以單純從他營業項目挑一項喔他做這個做麵包的怎麼跑來做這個我覺得這樣子是邏輯跳太快以外他其實在摧毀台灣建構這一個供應鏈的縱深的過程"},{"start":631.747,"end":650.377,"text":"那內容如果有人模不章違法該送辦就送辦啊但是你不能把這個模式整個說不行一定保障原來有在做軍工業有時機的那其他的都不行那我們怎麼擴大怎麼產生競爭力或怎麼引進新創Enduro原來不是在做軍工業的耶Enduro原來是在做那個資訊的"},{"start":651.926,"end":664.357,"text":"或者以色列某一個廠商他原來呢是在做駭客的現在他擴大他做防駭客所以這個東西其實在軍工業裡面國防部要嚴格把關就是基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件最容易"},{"start":668.52,"end":686.306,"text":"綁住特定人這一個要很橫平的去做處理所以我希望軍備局就這個課題確實人家說做這個行業怎麼下來做這個那就要好好說明基本條件符合專業條件在哪裡他的專業條件他有拿到美國政府或者國務院或者相關的輸出許可"},{"start":686.926,"end":709.241,"text":"他的交貨要押標多少那如果不能達標我要沒收而這一個火藥是在國內根本沒辦法生產一定要對外採購的那任何人取得輸出許可都來投標嘛價低者得品質高者得嘛這樣子完整來論述比較和平否則揭露這些攻擊這些甚至於哪一些有的沒有的去牽扯我就說台灣的"},{"start":710.262,"end":738.391,"text":"所有你去看營業登記齁那個勾的選項多到你會覺得很好笑做不蠟甲的做內衣的這邊搞不好在做五金你知道嗎做水桶的這邊呢在做那個汽車的什麼電零件的台灣的中小企業那個營業登記齁就像凱斯國際一樣可以一直勾一直勾一直勾無限勾啊你只要不違法我們沒有什麼可以非難他的齁好所以以上就這一個部分我反而是透過這個案例希望軍備局跟相關單位在軍事採購上"},{"start":740.331,"end":764.319,"text":"國內採購我們應該要具備哪些基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件不要拘泥於既有的應該去限定房產技術授權那如果是採購的我們國內沒有製造對外採購的他要具備哪些要件把它寫清楚讓國人知道這一個不是單純那一句話挑他一個營業項目然後連結到他這個採購案所以這樣不行那不行那我們這照要不要買"},{"start":766.485,"end":784.6,"text":"這種性能的炸藥其實是有必要的那不買爽到誰高興到誰所以以上這個是這個部分那我多問一題馬防部的這一題我一直覺得很好奇馬防部的案子我就不再細說了我其實覺得很痛心"},{"start":786.958,"end":812.272,"text":"一個市官長市都二等長三等長或上市加上外導加給作戰加給每個月薪水你說好或不好比社會大眾來看其實還算可以怎麼會為了每個月兩千塊到三四千塊錢去把賬號出租給詐騙集團而且看起來是整串的變成賈鶴道修法那我要問的基本解問題"},{"start":814.148,"end":837.135,"text":"現在涉案人數到底多少是367還是31我想就這個部分因為現在檢調單位在偵查我想我們也不適宜公開在這邊軍方自己應該有去調查我們現在現役的涉案有多少我想有啊 那天你們有公布啊那個數字有沒有更動嘛就請參謀長來說報委員 這個"},{"start":840.714,"end":869.781,"text":"入軍面對這樣的事情我們是嚴肅和審慎面對實際上現在可以比較第一個剛才部長說這個整個是目前是連江地檢所在調查那我只能在這邊說目前比較精確和承認的確定的是有7位那其他因為他的涉案的程度有認罪的7位那其他涉案程度跟金流的流向這些東西都還要那個偵查不公開我尊重"},{"start":870.501,"end":899.882,"text":"就軍方的掌握 犯罪的起始點到底是什麼時候這不是短期間可以變那麼多人 有的人抽一開始 ㄎㄧㄤㄎㄧㄤ 不敢一定是很長 大家都沒事齁 那一個多一個 每個人多兩三千這個犯罪的起始點 目前我們軍方是有掌握 但是我這邊還是不是 因為起始點牽涉到不能懲處錯人剛去三個月的 剛去一個月的懲處 我覺得沒道理已經移開一兩年了 搞不好是他的管理放縱啊"},{"start":901.375,"end":903.664,"text":"有沒有陣戰人員牽扯在裡面目前"},{"start":905.427,"end":931.42,"text":"跟委員報告 我想我們這個部門會檢討馬防部跟各級幹部就馬防各級幹部的一個督管書者那我們現在除了將指揮官跟南竿守備大隊長調離縣值以外我們相關的這個這些督管幹部的我們併案來檢討事成所以部長 這個案子我們常常講莫非定律會發生在馬祖我就擔心發生在其他地方"},{"start":932.34,"end":952.376,"text":"那這件事情我覺得關鍵點是什麼時候開始的如果是兩年前開始從一個變兩個 兩個變八個 八個變多少一直變那其實點那個時候到底是怎麼開始的那時候的管理權責是誰該負責弄到最後變成幾十個人的時候事情就很嚴重了因為最嚴重不僅是跟詐騙集團勾結"},{"start":953.897,"end":980.691,"text":"最嚴重是這些資料如果丟給共諜網絡我掌握你這些不名譽的事情你要乖乖交出資料否則我一揭露你就沒工作這一個國安的破洞就是露在那裡因為軍人很怕 你知道軍人連車禍都會害怕我車禍 好啊 長官知道會處分我有時候亂處分沒道理啦就軍人很怕有糾紛 長官究責我就要背鍋這個事情這些人的名字如果詐騙集團跟對岸的合作"},{"start":981.872,"end":1003.571,"text":"這些很容易被逼的只好配合這個不僅是詐騙漏洞這也是國安漏洞所以歧視點或相關的情形我們相關保防督查至少一份報告給本席跟委員會好不好我們該用保密的保密但我們要知道到底什麼時候開始的怎麼擴大開始我們調查完均這個我們會這邊會做一個報告謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}