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區備局局長還有中科院院長部長好"},{"start":14.754,"end":36.471,"text":"今天有非常多位的委員其實我們有在討論這一個高爆彈藥RDX這個採購還有包括我們的HMX所有的採購大家為什麼會質疑不是因為他跨業去做如果他有很好的能力很好的研發大家不會有意見"},{"start":37.572,"end":51.988,"text":"今天合成為什麼可以做抗彈板中科院非常清楚因為那是中科院的科研的經費跟他合作他要做的是裝甲車的抗彈板對不對今天所以他不是因為他做馬桶來做這個是類比的"},{"start":55.231,"end":60.676,"text":"今天如果台塑他本來是做塑膠可是他去開醫院重點是幫病人開刀的是醫生他不是做塑膠料他就可以來幫你開刀啊所以你必須要一步一步到位你必須要有相當的專業你必須要達到這樣的條件今天大家質疑的是這個部分"},{"start":77.19,"end":81.272,"text":"我們如果回過頭來說過去20年來大家看過相關的記錄我們把它導回正題我們把它劃對重點今天大家的重點就是這一家廠商到底具不具備因為他不是採購一般的東西他買的是高爆彈藥如果像你們講的他不用有時機他只要有履約能力你怎麼判斷他的履約能力"},{"start":103.084,"end":107.366,"text":"他的規模小他的資本額少他也沒有過去的時機然後他也不是做這個本業的他也沒有相關的軍工經驗我不知道我們為什麼可以去認為他就有這樣的時機過去國防部或者很多相關的官員也在這個台上跟我們所有委員會不管所有的委員都說海昆艦輸出許可一定可以拿到"},{"start":131.016,"end":133.679,"text":"為什麼他可以得標就是因為他可以拿到輸出許可可是我們看現在的結果在過去有很多的經驗如果國防部要得標的廠商很多有委員質疑說這樣可能會被綁住隨便寫一個時機他就可以一直做一直做"},{"start":150.579,"end":159.202,"text":"這個就是過去的弊端可是我們也不是在這裡你這個都可以隨便把它取消掉的我想請教一下軍備局長剛剛你有提到說我們現在買回來的到底是什麼東西你買回來的到底是什麼東西RDSRDS你在上面寫得清清楚楚嘛"},{"start":169.386,"end":176.153,"text":"所以你回來還要再經過強酸的強硫酸洗還要乾化不用了你剛剛提出來讓大家覺得是你還要經過這樣的程序喔我剛剛解釋的是我們205廠也有產RTS它的原料是烏洛托瓶然後經過消化然後把它炸 是我剛剛是這樣說"},{"start":191.63,"end":213.065,"text":"所以讓所有的委員很清楚的知道你買的不是原料因為RDX你在上面的採購招標上面其實寫得清清楚楚就是RDXRDX如果它為什麼會不好做不然你它只有三個主要成分你只有六亞甲基四胺還有硝酸還有胺硝酸胺就是這是三種東西"},{"start":214.906,"end":220.55,"text":"他要把它做成RDX是比較困難的在你過去你也不是沒有量能因為第一時間提供給部長的資訊是錯誤的說我們國內沒有量能 不對國內有量能只是因為國內廠商沒有量能啊"},{"start":231.826,"end":241.674,"text":"我們自己可以做就是有量能我們軍備局我們現在在外購的時候部長沒關係啦我當然不會講到我們軍備局啊所以那個委員不可以拿著我兩句話說少講個廠商兩個字說我在說謊啊這我不能接受啊部長有人說你說謊嗎你是律師我說你說謊嗎你從哪裡聽來我看到新聞報導啊跳出來"},{"start":252.643,"end":256.784,"text":"你掉出來說謊量能如果軍備局可以跟廠商一樣可以做RDX他就是一樣也是廠商啊他賣給中科院啊再賣給我們國軍啊那他也是廠商啊你今天有很多過去他們做一些服裝做抗彈板也是賣給國軍啊那他也是廠商如果你要用這樣子去抓雨病的話那我們今天就可以把它說清楚"},{"start":277.648,"end":292.478,"text":"我們要說的是他們提供給你是錯誤的資訊我們不是沒有量能而是你現在如果要增加你可能要必須要外購所以要增加這樣子的一個量能而不是我們沒有這是第一點要說的所以我們今天要要談到的不是像剛剛有很多委員提到的說大家去還要帶什麼風向這個要帶什麼風向你所有的過去的廠商有資格的"},{"start":304.747,"end":331.101,"text":"中科院我想要請教一下這一次這家廠商他在三月拿到我們HMX的標案他在增加這個營業項目的時候只有短短三個月他是先拿到輸出許可嗎不是所以他沒有輸出許可可是你們把一億多的標案給他了嘛對不對是經過三次招標"},{"start":332.449,"end":336.213,"text":"為什麼過去你們這個不是第一次啊中科院做那麼多的飛彈飛彈是我們國內的強項你也做雄二你也做雄三你也做天空你做過很多所有的飛彈砲彈你都有需要這樣子的一些原料可是過去這些廠商為什麼不來標為什麼都留標為什麼只有一家廠商其實RDS跟HMX都一樣啊"},{"start":356.212,"end":372.002,"text":"他都是在絕標的次日期他一定的日期之內他要取得外國政府或授權許可或核發輸出許可證明啊他也就是要有把握他才會來投標啊那我們並沒有在招標資格上面訂定這個資格但是他還是要提出這樣的文件他才有可能履約啊你剛剛有聽到我問我們的中科院長嗎你有聽到他回答嗎他有拿到輸出許可嗎他現在已經啊"},{"start":385.539,"end":392.346,"text":"他在飆的時候有拿到輸出許可嗎我們這個案子也在飆的時候沒有要求他拿到輸出許可啊所以為什麼你們會認定他可以嗎我們20年來都是如此啊都是在絕飆之後的一定時間內去拿到輸出許可啊你的海昆號就不是"},{"start":402.837,"end":408.385,"text":"我們一個是原物料 一個是海固件你們不能夠拿兩種完全的東西來做類比嗎這是我們的高發財尿 今天我們要做很多包括我們的特別預算裡面有2400億"},{"start":417.136,"end":419.059,"text":"除了做船以外做了很多的飛彈那時候我們都沒有缺你今天在這一家廠商在他通過去年12月剛通過的時候你可以拿到我們HMX還有這個還比RDX更危險喔"},{"start":432.739,"end":437.242,"text":"我們先來提一下這個廠商他自己說的聲明裡面有什麼樣的狀況部長請冷靜的聽因為你是法律人你應該很清楚我們今天質疑的是這個不是一般的東西你今天如果是買車輛你今天如果是買救護車你今天如果是買其他的東西大家可能可以接受今天你這個廠商他本身因為不是過去通通沒有"},{"start":460.515,"end":475.598,"text":"HMX這個過去有很多家廠商長期以來在做你都說你可以回溯過去20年的這樣的一個履約的資歷表示有很多人做因為我們的熊二熊三也不是現在才做所以這些東西早就有進口MX它是美國的其實這個更危險你們有沒有隱藏啊"},{"start":484.329,"end":489.233,"text":"RDX也沒有理由隱藏我們一直在講說我們現在採購多困難他有什麼困難這個廠商自己都說只有中國和印度他就提兩個國家我們先看他昨天的回應我們把它分成兩套邏輯因為他大概自己分成兩套邏輯然後他兩段敘事"},{"start":509.022,"end":512.084,"text":"他把他寫成讓一般人老實說不是看得太懂因為他說他拿到美國的授權讓大家覺得他很有專業性可是剛剛我們的中科院長說他在這之前他根本沒有拿到我們的輸出許可那他有拿到授權不是因為這家廠商美國這個是因為中科院所以才給我們這樣的授權這個必須要很清楚的釐清他是為了那家廠商給的嗎"},{"start":540.043,"end":563.134,"text":"美國是為了那家廠商給的在短短三個月的時間他因為他有強調這家公司他強調美國軍工大廠十年的授權問題是這一份授權在中科院的標案上面用的這個不是軍備局的RDX的採購案因為這是給中科院的他的採購不用政府採購法"},{"start":564.275,"end":572.859,"text":"中科院的採購是不需要政府採購法這個是比較容易的所以先取得中科院這樣子的一個標案其實應該是比較容易政府採購法在辦理這個採購案沒關係因為採購法這個部分我們今天要討論的重點並不是這個"},{"start":580.382,"end":582.264,"text":"因為採購法上面你們要怎麼樣去讓他可以可以勉強通過或模糊其實都沒有關係我們現在比較質疑的是你先你剛剛說他是先拿到授權嗎他有拿到授權嗎10年"},{"start":596.656,"end":603.019,"text":"幫我確定 那個 我先跟委員講我們HMX的採購過程沒有啦 沒關係 你簡單講就好時間的關係 簡單講就是說以前我們沒有 講這個案子 講這個案子以前的來源沒有來投票 他拿到授權他拿到授權 這一家公司拿到這個大廠的十年授權還是中科院 十年授權不能保障"},{"start":615.566,"end":641.816,"text":"他只有拿到授權但是他昨天講十年獨家代理這個我不敢幫他保證所以你們在他得標的內容上面只是因為沒有三家廠商只有他一家來這個是唯一的條件第一次招標沒有廠商第二次是另外一家公司投標但是超過底價所以沒有決標第三次變成只有他這一家來而且是在我們的底價範圍之內所以才決標所以你也不敢幫他保證他有沒有授權對不對"},{"start":645.437,"end":659.514,"text":"獨家代理就請他拿出輸出許可證明啊那後來他就拿到了啊那他拿到輸出許可證明就代表他的確接到授權了這個就是問題點你今天先說我們拿到授權"},{"start":660.675,"end":665.817,"text":"他因為他得標了嘛今天為什麼他可以拿到輸出許可是因為他拿到中科院的標案用我們的標案再去美國拿這個在座的各位應該都非常清楚他為什麼可以拿到因為拿到我們的標案再去取得這樣子的這樣子的一個輸出許可是比較容易的因為美國不會平白無故因為他過去20年來我們得標的廠商全部都是國際貿易業者"},{"start":687.287,"end":689.911,"text":"外面也都是在結標之後一定時間拿到這個輸出許可部長 這個您已經講過了我現在講的是我們提的意見跟看法因為他就是拿了我們的這個標案以後他才去取得這樣的輸出許可"},{"start":703.411,"end":707.415,"text":"這個也是這就是你們的程序啊這就是你們的程序因為你先讓他得標了嘛我們現在再來看看因為美國他不會平白無故授權一家去年12月才變更項目然後沒有軍工履歷沒有相關進出口紀錄這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":722.649,"end":727.532,"text":"他相信的是我們國家還有中科院這是第一點第二個福邁的這個聲明他也把它拆成兩段我們可以看到他第一段用中科院的授權來讓他的專業性可以提升第二段他講到軍備局的RDX"},{"start":741.421,"end":748.09,"text":"他講了兩個國家他說中國跟印度所以可見你不可能跟中國買那其實他的來源就是印度嘛可是這兩件事其實是不同的標案他也是不同的系統我們要說的中科院其實他是"},{"start":757.401,"end":781.414,"text":"比較不需要政府採購法當然你要說他用最低標或什麼那都沒關係今天為什麼其他家在你中科院從過去到現在都有能力都有經驗都有軍工背景都有相關的這些資歷的他們全部都沒有來投標這也是應該要去理清楚其實很簡單就是原來要賣那個國家不賣了現在他是重新要去取得美國如果你一定要我講就這麼簡單"},{"start":787.372,"end":796.47,"text":"所以這就是我們取的來源不易啊當那個國家不賣的時候我們之後找另外一個國家所以這家廠商他自己去跟美國談"},{"start":797.571,"end":799.493,"text":"當然啦是嗎是啊好很好然後你去年12月才變更項目隔年3月拿到標案先拿到已經有授權然後就是你去換授權跟換輸出許可嘛另外RDX的部分印度出口其實是不會受中國影響的"},{"start":820.151,"end":837.718,"text":"我們剛剛講了兩個HMX我們並不確定我們並不確定在今天鬧出這麼大的事件之後我們不知道我們沒有我們不知道印度會不會受到影響有什麼樣的影響RDX印度不會賣給我們嗎印度怕中國嗎"},{"start":839.454,"end":862.764,"text":"你們的意思是這樣嗎我們不是一直說我們現在國際的關係都很好我剛剛部長有講到一個就是說後來美國不願意賣給我們這個中科院院長在這裡證實一下好不好HMX美國不賣給我們我們之前從來沒有跟美國經過這一次是第一次之前來自於歐洲的一個國家現在不肯再賣給我們"},{"start":863.844,"end":877.61,"text":"對好歐洲的國家不願意來賣給我們可是我們跟美國的關係美國也不會懼怕中共美國其實他要提供給我們的困難度也不高因為他有很多其實是我們中科院或者甚至我們軍備局做完以後其實我們還可以再協助他們"},{"start":880.811,"end":893.001,"text":"我們只是沒有直接出售 我們沒有辦法軍售可是在商用的部分 其實我們也賣過很多所以就這個部分 美國也不會因為只有一家因為大家現在比較關切的就是這個部分所以在這裡我們還是想要最後利用一點時間我想要請教一下 我們這一次的標案總共多少金額"},{"start":904.07,"end":906.232,"text":"時間有多長 預算金額是8.2億那實際5.9億決標所以他的附件上面有一個擴充條款多少錢 擴充也是812也是812 兩個時間點多長我們這一次第一次的組合約起程多長"},{"start":929.893,"end":937.342,"text":"數量多少簽約之後的第一批是300天第二批360天沒有 我就是說你的復健後面是幾天"},{"start":939.588,"end":962.999,"text":"就是你的擴充合約是幾天擴充是到117年擴充合約是幾天告訴我們幾天因為你分兩個階段嘛你一個就是我們現在的合約上面是講擴充合約是可以到117年12月31號我們這一個是第一個是300天是的第一批分兩批第一批要300天簽約後300天交然後第二批是簽約後360天交所以我們的組合約"},{"start":966.34,"end":969.321,"text":"也就是說我們的組合約是有六百多天對不對是六百多天大概兩年對不對不是不是擴充合約的部分是要看我們要不要執行我們有權利不執行下面的履約沒有辦法我們也不會執行我們的軍備局認為沒有這個擴充在外購的需要也不需要擴充請聽我講完我的問題我要的是答案"},{"start":992.19,"end":993.953,"text":"我想要請教的因為這個裡面有組合約就是現在的得標的金額5.2億5.9億所以他分兩個階段就是300天跟365天"},{"start":1007.884,"end":1034.105,"text":"360天所以他總共有660天同樣是從簽約簽約期300天和簽約期360天他只是要分兩批最晚時間是360天一年多然後後續的他的擴充條款後擴是可以在117年12月31日前來執行有數量嗎數量也是一樣一樣的數量"},{"start":1037.587,"end":1044.132,"text":"所以他的那個擴充金額為什麼你還是用原來的金額因為你得標的金額已經降下來了可是你擴充合約的金額還是一樣你甚至比第一次的組合約還要高到時候底價的訂定會參考不是部長我們過去沒有前例我們的擴充合約其實不會比我們的組約還要高預算還要高這是基本的不管你所有的發包所有的採購"},{"start":1066.829,"end":1084.402,"text":"包委員那個後擴的那個金額那是以預算預算金額來編不是我現在要講的是你為什麼要後擴這樣的金額因為你的金額已經比主約還要高了你後面是9億耶你後面是9億耶對不對"},{"start":1088.442,"end":1090.883,"text":"8.2億你的擴充的金額比那個我們現在在這裡請部長做一個決策今天因為過去沒有這樣子的一個案例你都還不知道他好不好你甚至都不知道他的履約的能力好不好這跟我們之前在談到的像我們的"},{"start":1108.905,"end":1111.388,"text":"就是我們的國軍的服裝攻受戰的概念是一樣的你一簽連擴充條約大概長達八年而且高達百億以上這是非常高的而且中間其實幾乎很難讓他有解約的可能"},{"start":1123.945,"end":1147.18,"text":"因為要罰款也罰不了我們的擴充合約就我了解我們有不執行的一個空間我們沒有一定要執行這個擴充合約我剛已經講了擴充合約還要當然還要看他前面的履約的狀況如何他如果履約沒有沒有能夠履約根本沒有後面的擴充第二個我們的捐配給要考量他自己本身的產能如果我們認為已經夠了我們不需要執行後續的擴充合約這個權在我們"},{"start":1151.843,"end":1160.993,"text":"那所以為什麼要簽擴充合約我們只是認為如果他已經有拿到輸出許可了他就有能力輸出許可隨時都可以終止那當然他後續的執行他後續的執行會決定的後面他擴充我們的擴充的這個履驗能力的一個評估"},{"start":1174.167,"end":1186.24,"text":"部長我們現在簡單再來想這個案子因為一個就是他的沒有資歷規模小或者因為你們說要讓大家都有資格嘛只要有貿易條可以有進口國際貿易的這樣的條件因為放寬許多其實就可以來投標"},{"start":1192.507,"end":1196.628,"text":"所以既然他的條件是這樣 如果他做得不夠好 照理 你說你可以要擴充條約或不要 可是通常你綁了這個以後 因為你現在很明顯的 很明顯的他的擴充條約的金額 他已經遠比我們 他現在標的金額還要高了 他現在5.9億 可是你後面的擴充金額是9億 對不對不是 8.2億 就預算金額嘛 到時候訂的底價一定不會是這個金額嘛"},{"start":1222.349,"end":1226.81,"text":"部長 你給他寫在合約上面他就會用那你可不可以在這裡那我們這一次訂的預算金額也是8.2億啊我們的底標是8.2嗎 不是啊所以我現在意思就是他明明就可以5.9億可是因為你訂了擴充的金額所以他就一個綁在一個8.2億那你可以要求他說他的擴充的金額不可以高於現在他得標的金額嗎 可以嗎合約上面可以訂嗎"},{"start":1250.957,"end":1266.307,"text":"合約上面可以訂嗎因為在招標文件當時我分AB好第一階段和後擴那第一階段後擴招標文件就已經因為依預算規劃來訂那後來絕標金額是5.9億那我們就不能再去反過來去改變當時招標文件的這個內容"},{"start":1267.108,"end":1269.969,"text":"所以特別在這裡嘛 我們現在講的就是你在每一個招標 尤其是最近喔過去還沒有這麼多 現在每一個幾乎都有擴充的這個合約 擴充條款這些擴充條款 已經把那個金額都綁在上面了你今天他可以5.9億標 可是你現在卻願意給他8.2億他就是可以有這麼高了 對不對我們沒有願意給他8.2億嘛 委員怎麼可以一直這樣子"},{"start":1294.676,"end":1303.326,"text":"部長好那沒關係我們現在要講的是你在合約上面可不可以訂定其實他就不是不可以高於現在的主約的價格可不可以這個是要等到我們執行擴約的時候我們會來參考這個委員的意見嗎"},{"start":1312.117,"end":1319.48,"text":"我們一定會會遵循這個合法的一個情況來辦理公開招這個我們的公開招標的扣約程序的內容的執行這你非常清楚合約簽訂以後就是這樣金額今天這就是大家可能比較質疑的我們現在要求一下我們希望可以提供這些相關的一些記錄就是服賣他有保險嗎"},{"start":1335.345,"end":1341.267,"text":"有危險品的乘運能力然後有IMDG申報文件然後有招標單位是不是都有看過那這有沒有防場另外危險品運輸有沒有相關的一些證明的資料這些我們希望其實在過去我們有要求的剛剛有提到我們依照美軍的紀律嘛美軍的規範所以美軍如果怎麼要求我們也這麼要求好不好"},{"start":1363.194,"end":1378.833,"text":"反正後續他會拿到數據有個證明他會跟原廠那邊會就這些相關來加以律定嗎這個部分我們要求跟美軍的相關規範是一致的而不是只有選擇性的這個部分在後續再提供給我們 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}