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現在是不是我們請彭部長請彭部長林委員好"},{"start":14.158,"end":25.104,"text":"部長我們在一夕之間就宣布了這個廚餘不再養豬那現在每天大概有幾千噸的廚餘大概現在1700多萬1700多噸1700多噸 瞬間成為燙手山芋一半進焚化爐另外一半可能就掩埋"},{"start":42.87,"end":60.788,"text":"然後就是這樣子生殖能生殖能的量就固定了你是有設定目標但現在就是生殖能幾乎就是那麼一點點所以這個政策急轉彎的後果大多數還是要靠我們老舊翻新的焚化爐來承擔"},{"start":62.576,"end":89.909,"text":"我們走到第一線的垃圾處理現場我們看到很荒謬的景象現在含水量高達80%的生熟廚餘放到焚化爐裡面這個焚化爐就像在燒開水一樣不僅大幅降低了焚化的溫度減損了發電的效率而且大家都知道超零服役的焚化爐面臨了更嚴重的設備耗損的風險"},{"start":92.429,"end":110.705,"text":"所以你在報告裡面提到要將廚餘處理設施的量能提升到每天2119噸聽起來像是政績但事實上我就要跟你分享你卻暴露了我們對於源頭減量的無能為力"},{"start":112.554,"end":128.334,"text":"你們現在想的是說我們把處理廚餘的量能提高到生產的量能可以處理這些廚餘就好了可是你們從來都沒有想過說真正的正本清源是要源頭減量"},{"start":130.103,"end":155.672,"text":"那我們一方面喊著2050要淨零排放可是另外一方面都用這個高耗能的方式去燒掉或許裡面還有很多是可以餵飽弱勢族群的食物有一些是可以轉化為肥沃土壤的有機質聯合國的數據告訴我們食物浪費貢獻了多少%的溫室氣體排放你知道嗎"},{"start":156.654,"end":163.901,"text":"大概10%左右差不多所以這些食物浪費貢獻了10%的溫室氣體的排放"},{"start":167.054,"end":185.891,"text":"所以歐盟已經透過廢棄物框架指令要來重新分配配置食物的資源我們還在煩惱廚餘太臭沒有人要還在想要蓋幾座的生殖能廠來消化這些錯置的資源"},{"start":186.992,"end":201.768,"text":"我的意思是說你們的想像你們的政策裡面到現在為止你們的政策都沒有重新分配食物資源的這個概念完全都沒有所以我們今天就是要請你說你要跳出把廚藥當成垃圾處理的這一個舊思維"},{"start":207.995,"end":225.389,"text":"而是要跳到循環經濟裡面的架構來看那我們知道歐盟的儲餘政策開始談歐盟的儲餘政策並不是獨立存在的而是架構在歐盟運作的條約第191條的環境條款跟2015年的循環經濟的行動計畫的宏觀的架構裡面"},{"start":235.017,"end":263.253,"text":"他的核心邏輯是一定要嚴格的遵守廢棄物管理階層的優先順序你知道他們的優先順序是什麼嗎歐盟這段我沒有看到他第一個優先順序處理這個循環經濟這個食物廢棄物管理階層優先順序第一一定要預防最優先要從源頭避免浪費第二"},{"start":264.173,"end":289.104,"text":"要再利用供人類食用 就是食物捐贈這是僅次與預防的最佳方案 要做食物捐贈第三 動物飼料 第四 工業生殖能第五 堆肥 第六 最後不得已最終的不得已是焚化和掩埋 它是最後手段"},{"start":290.144,"end":297.627,"text":"對照我們的狀況我們的政策中心現在你都是選擇456就是生殖能堆肥焚化這個在歐盟的這一個廢棄物管理階層的優先順序裡面都是很低階的"},{"start":307.771,"end":310.273,"text":"價值流失較多的處理方式歐盟他們優先是要將資源的價值要保留在經濟體系當中的最高位置也就是要儘可能保留它作為食物的形態而不是廢棄物的形態所以我現在請你們"},{"start":331.793,"end":348.676,"text":"用科學的數據來治理從末端的輕運量統計要走向全生命週期的食物浪費的統計你們光是統計就沒有統計了所以你會告訴我你們一年產生多少的食物浪費部長你講得出來嗎"},{"start":350.191,"end":373.109,"text":"說真的台灣的數據我有問了基本上是沒有沒有統計那也跟委員報告其實我們行政院的報告裡面我們有特別加進去一個就是重新再推動食農洗食的教育就是委員你說的那我們現在正在整合因為我覺得我們這個過去早就有推可是都很分散沒有啦食農洗食是口號"},{"start":373.929,"end":391.85,"text":"如果你連產生多少量你都統計不出來你根本不知道你有沒有洗到這個洗到時可能不知道啊環境部的統計數字永遠是清潔隊的回收量但是這種數據你說你有多少廚餘"},{"start":393.251,"end":410.848,"text":"剩食你們就只有清潔隊的回收量是末端的處理量而不是源頭的產生量更不是食物的浪費量你都不知道食物浪費多少你怎麼奢談 洗食呢你怎麼知道有沒有洗食所以不要把它變成抽象的道德的口號"},{"start":417.654,"end":418.514,"text":"所以這個重量是什麼 沒有意義"},{"start":441.866,"end":467.045,"text":"沒有意義這個數字也沒有告訴你們這些決策者有多少的比例是因為供應鏈的管理不當而過期的麵包有多少比例是因為消費者習慣而倒掉的剩食如果我們沒有辦法區分可以避免的浪費和不可避免的廢棄物我們的減量息食就是口號而已啊保定"},{"start":468.045,"end":488.531,"text":"那你們的公告因回收或再利用廢棄物再生資源項目你們的項目上面怎麼寫你要先統計啊沒有任何統計的這個數字沒有計算就沒有所謂的減量可是你們的公告因回收再利用廢棄物再生資源項目只有一個項目叫什麼你們一個叫做除以兩個字"},{"start":494.125,"end":515.051,"text":"事業產生出來的廚餘就是廚餘兩個字你們在廚餘裡面沒有其他的概念了你覺不覺得應該要其他的概念在統計上光從正本清源的統計上沒有辦法設定減量啊你怎麼設定減量連統計都沒有連計算都沒有怎麼設定減量保定"},{"start":518.056,"end":537.608,"text":"包委員廚餘記得有分不一樣的類別我們林副署長你要不要說明一下廚餘有分類但是委員說的這個我們的例如說餐廳或是一般團散出來的那個部分的確是缺乏統計資料啦我現在要跟你講我他山之石可以公錯了我已經講很多遍一直跟你講"},{"start":539.35,"end":554.92,"text":"對比之下歐盟早在10年前就意識到這個問題了歐盟執委會為了達成聯合國SDG12.3減少糧食浪費的目標啟動了歐盟食物浪費預防還有社會創新計畫簡稱Fusion"},{"start":557.895,"end":575.806,"text":"他的futures他不是一個簡單的統計專案而是關於一場關於定義的革命定義的定義他的核心價值在於他建立了一套非常嚴謹的定義的框架他不再籠統的簡稱叫做廚餘"},{"start":579.508,"end":602.693,"text":"副署長 你們除了廚藝以外還有其他名稱嗎還有其他統計嗎是 我們的那個一般廢棄物裡面是有一個廚藝這個名稱事業廢棄物裡面有廚藝的名稱那還有一些是說剩食那剩食裡面又有分分成是來自於譬如說工廠的那一些我們有植物性殘渣 動物性殘渣還有一些下腳料等等所以這個是統稱 統稱叫廚藝事實上它在個別的代碼存在"},{"start":607.031,"end":634.199,"text":"最終還是混在一起啦跟委員報告就是說 習時的東西我對於現在的習時是不滿意的啦所以我已經請我們知道不滿意要有手段要有方法要改革而他必須從定義開始我就跟你講歐盟他首先強制跟食物廢棄物區分為他並不是你們講的下甲料什麼剩食廚餘剩食跟廚餘還不是一樣"},{"start":635.979,"end":654.132,"text":"他們是區分為可以食用的部分跟不可食用的部分那為什麼要這樣子區分呢因為這樣子要對接到不同的管理的工具政策工具會不一樣所以對於可食用的部分比如說過期的吐司外觀醜陋的蔬果"},{"start":656.253,"end":671.265,"text":"這個是資源措置啊政策的目標是要預防跟再分配例如說要捐贈給食物銀行但是對不可食用的部分像蛋殼骨頭才是真正的廢棄物他的政策目標應該是價值轉化比如說拿去驗養發酵產氣"},{"start":676.269,"end":694.593,"text":"那歐盟透過這套的方法 制定了統一的量化手冊要求成員國在食物供應鏈的六大階段從初級生產 加工製造 批發物流 零售市場到餐飲服務業 到家庭消費進行全面的盤查他要盤查六個階段 都要做"},{"start":700.434,"end":725.062,"text":"然後讓歐盟能夠精準的抓出原本在生產端有大量的農產品因為外觀不符合超市的規格而被拋棄而在消費端有大量的食物因為標示不清楚而被拋棄有了這套數據以後第一他才能夠訂出精準的廢棄物框架指令"},{"start":726.002,"end":734.349,"text":"那有這個廢棄物框架的指令才能夠強制要求大型企業揭露數據才能夠對症下藥你看我們台灣還在用多少量 總重量來自我安慰以為說出於回收率高就是做環保殊不知我們的回收一半以上可能是 有可能啊你是不應該要丟棄的食物啊"},{"start":750.541,"end":773.344,"text":"更不要講說歐盟第二個人家在進一步在2025年更修訂了再一次的修訂指令為了要達到2030年將人均食物的浪費要減半的目標人家訂出浪費減半的目標而且減少生產和供應鏈中的食物損失他們要求成員國"},{"start":774.545,"end":793.858,"text":"要在2030年前將加工製造緩解的食物浪費要減少10%此外 成員國在零售和消費的緩解比如說在餐廳 在餐飲服務機構和家庭要設定人均食物的浪費要減少30%"},{"start":796.847,"end":809.635,"text":"所以你剛剛講治理不能變成空話沒有盤查就沒有管理沒有辦法設定政策工具更談不上減量的目標"},{"start":811.007,"end":827.595,"text":"所以不會源頭減量你現在說我要增加這個去化去除這些廢棄物的處理量能這個都是末端啊生產更多生產過更多然後你再蓋更多這個不是從來都不是這樣子不應該是這樣子"},{"start":828.795,"end":841.862,"text":"保證這樣是不對的報告委員其實我的確是我們的確有在研究法國的食物浪費法避免食物浪費法那它到底怎麼做的我們也在看甚至像韓國韓國它的廚餘都要秤重的"},{"start":844.844,"end":864.715,"text":"要付費的我們也都在觀察就是怎麼樣去推動因為我們的確對於浪費食物台灣過去並沒有一個很好的政策道德性的去做處理而已所以我也贊同委員說的但是這個部分我們需要跨部會去做例如說我們現在的很多的團散製造一堆三成的變成廚餘這個其實就是有問題"},{"start":865.715,"end":884.628,"text":"這個很多問題啊那比如說你們的2050的循環經濟路徑裡面洋洋灑灑說建立食品供應鏈減損管理的策略聽起來很好啊你說這個食物浪費法聽起來好像很好啊可是你們要具體的管理的工具啊具體管理的工具和手段在哪裡所以你不是說定一個這個食品浪費法就好了你要導入你要先導入你先要統計啊"},{"start":891.733,"end":918.532,"text":"你要像Fusion一樣的盤查方法所謂的供應鏈減損如果你沒有這種盤查的話這供應鏈減損就是一句空話根據公視的報導目前列管的1490家的超市和量販業者當中你現在講說要個別家庭出入要秤重要計價你為什麼不從業者開始1490家的超市和量販業者當中他們每年申報一萬一千噸的廢棄食品"},{"start":921.107,"end":925.649,"text":"11000噸耶1490家而已請問部長這11000噸裡面有多少是還可以吃但是被丟掉的有多少是已經腐敗不能吃的你們答不出來吧因為業者申報的時候根本不需要區分啊"},{"start":939.294,"end":955.57,"text":"對然後大多數直接去焚化爐燒掉但業者只要把東西交給清潔處理機構就好了啊責任就沒了啊業者根本不需要在乎任何的執行的細端是進到豬的肚子還是跑到焚化爐去都跟他無關都是你政府的責任嘛是 是"},{"start":956.551,"end":961.897,"text":"所以你們也不在乎啊但是當不能夠養豬以後你們就必須要在乎了啊沒錯 沒錯但我講這一萬一千噸高熱脂的廢棄食品失去了養豬這個去處我們還是不知道他們的成分我們就沒有辦法精準的把他們導流"},{"start":974.651,"end":1003.851,"text":"到底我們可能會把這個高原分的剩食送進堆肥廠他也毀了農地的土壤把高水分的果皮送進了焚化爐毀了爐體的耐火磚所以在這裡面你們的很多KPI啦但是你們的KPI到目前看起來永遠在追逐末端的處理設施的擴建而陷入了垃圾產生越多預算編列越多的惡性循環"},{"start":1005.211,"end":1015.955,"text":"你們的KPI說 堆肥啦 黑水盲啦 生殖能的處理廠啊提升全國處理的設施量能你們一天 2017年 116年要達到2119噸一天這是非常危險的指標設定欸"},{"start":1024.238,"end":1035.728,"text":"部長你設定的指標是我們的目標是處理量能提升那就意味著儲雨越多越好嗎真正的循環經濟的目標應該是儲雨產生量要下降但我們過去幾年精準的食物浪費的基準線都沒有辦法統計和設定怎麼去設定2030年要減少50%的"},{"start":1051.062,"end":1054.503,"text":"食物浪費這麼精準的源頭減量的目標不可能嘛所以我在這裡具體要求最後我具體要求第一我請你半年內半年內參照歐盟Fusions的架構發布台灣版的食物浪費盤查指引"},{"start":1072.247,"end":1095.185,"text":"設定科學化的減量基準線而這個指引不能夠只是參考性質必須具有強制利入法強制要求從業者開始資本額達到一定規模以上的食品製造業餐飲業和零售通路商每年必須申報詳細的食物浪費盤查報告可以嗎"},{"start":1098.747,"end":1121.585,"text":"包委員我非常同意你的做法包含我們未來其實我們那個整個在應急的這個處理的去化的處理裡面有留下一個伏筆就是源頭減量所以這個部分呢委員你提到的這個意見是我們的確是在看那我們現在是因為先應急但是後面的部分呢委員六個月太長我們會努力盡快之前會完成我很樂意聽到你這個但是這個報告必須揭露"},{"start":1122.105,"end":1143.702,"text":"那個企業一年採購了多少食物銷售了多少量丟棄了多少量在丟棄的部分當中可時跟不可時的比例為何流向跑到哪裡去了只有當這些數據被攤在陽光下企業才可以接受到社會責任的才可以接到社會監督感受到社會責任的壓力才會認真的去檢討採購跟庫存管理的流程"},{"start":1147.225,"end":1164.465,"text":"這樣才能達到真正的源頭減量但是我必須說我們的確還有一些相關的法規還要再配套還有食品安全管理的問題也是要配套還有責任的問題也是要配套這個我們執行細節再討論好 謝謝委員我們會趕快來做謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}