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謝謝主席我想這個國防預算的支出是國內最大項的支出我們還是要讓國人知道到底發生了什麼事情好 那我們麻煩部長好 謝謝部長請顧部長"},{"start":312.69,"end":325.523,"text":"謝謝國防部長你們的報告也有提到說其實你們是經得起公開監督的啦所以我們才會說我們用一個公開監督的方式來處理我建議委員不要查五年啦你應該是查過去二十年好了"},{"start":325.683,"end":343.872,"text":"好 沒問題 沒問題我們到時候委員會我們20年嘛謝謝你要查的話部長 我也相信部長跟我一樣我們對於國家有忠誠的義務所以我們一定希望把事情釐清那也不要說讓有人背負不白之冤所以把事情釐清我想是你我跟國人都希望的"},{"start":344.512,"end":360.031,"text":"請問一下你們新聞稿有提到押標金3%履約保證金5% 180天內提出輸出許可驗收不合格就解約 沒收保證金這部分是你們這次的報告還有新聞稿有提到的請問是或不是"},{"start":361.409,"end":383.354,"text":"我們會在這個他如果沒有辦法提出輸出許可證明然後之後又沒有辦法提供這一個產地證明原廠製造證明文件然後並且沒有辦法能夠交貨的話那我們就有或者是檢驗沒辦法合格我們就辦理結案付款不合格的部分都辦理退貨由廠商回運原產地"},{"start":386.975,"end":402.882,"text":"這個內容我想大家都知道我只是說這個數據沒有錯但是部長這個採購法的核心是要求政府你用納稅人的錢去找廠商合作重點是要審查廠商的資格是要一開始就要避免有交易的危險"},{"start":404.102,"end":424.971,"text":"所以採購它有兩個很重要的關鍵點我想部長您是律師我是檢察官出身的我們對於採購法都很熟悉我們採購有兩個最重要的關鍵點第一 履約能力第二 進出口經驗跟供應鏈這兩個很重要的關鍵點所以今天你們的新聞稿有提到說這個裝潢公司有營業國際貿易所以符合採購資格這個沒錯吧"},{"start":429.293,"end":456.943,"text":"你們有這樣子講嘛 對不對我們過去二十年來對於外購的這些火藥原物料的採的資格都是如此也就是都具有國際貿易業的資格就都可以但是呢 依據巨額採購的標準5.9億的採購案至少要有十分之一的財力證明啊這家廠商的資本額只有一千九百萬不到三分之一那連你說的百分之五的危機是兩千九百五十萬都賠不出來那這個我就覺得就是一個很大的風險啦"},{"start":458.683,"end":480.698,"text":"我們是用押標金跟旅業保證金來督促他預約旅行我跟你講你講到這個就是我等一下要講的啦所以你們認為說廠商只要繳得出押標金旅業保證金期限內能夠提出這些原廠證明我們就認為他有代理人能力嘛對不對如果沒有你們會解約這是你從早上講到現在但是我跟跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":481.238,"end":496.773,"text":"你這等於是放任廠商拿國防部的合約去跟銀行貸款啊所以他是在做無本生意部長解約跟賠償是兩回事您是律師我覺得這個人不要混淆視聽啦我給一個比喻啦"},{"start":498.018,"end":513.065,"text":"第一個 他可能會發生的 他債權可能沒有辦法實現喔因為你們一直講的是說 他違約我們有什麼處罰 旅遊保證金5% 押標金3% 你一直講這個但是我今天是國防採購欸 我不是要採購一個官司案欸"},{"start":513.965,"end":534.134,"text":"所以我為什麼希望他最後會走到那一步我當然是希望採購能夠順利所以我們採購能夠順利就是要拿到服務稀可證明他沒有辦法拿他就沒辦法履約我們沒有付錢部長我沒有問你所以今天發生幾個問題我點出問題點第一個你找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司"},{"start":536.095,"end":554.321,"text":"去承包這麼大的案子那這個會發生什麼 就好像騎腳踏車不小心撞到法拉利一樣出事了 對 你可以告我我可能要賠你一千萬但不好意思 我賠不起嘛債權憑證嘛我們念法律人不是最喜歡講我沒有需要告他 我沒收履約保證金履約保證金他已經繳在那裡啦"},{"start":555.421,"end":580.262,"text":"然後第二個 我跟你講反正他今天不管發生了什麼事情我搞不定 我賠不了 那我就宣告倒閉就好我就再講一次嘛 不管他有沒有宣告倒閉我默說他履歷保證金就是我違約的時候的處罰嘛部長 部長 麻煩你冷靜一下我再說一次 國防採購我是要保衛國家用不是為了未來找官司用的嘛"},{"start":580.802,"end":604.889,"text":"我的祖宗是要保衛國家不是要找一個以後可以打官司所以我覺得就算打贏官司我們拿到一個債權憑證或是我們沒收了他的押標金意義在哪裡部長可以不要插嘴嗎部長所以我今天就覺得第一個我們可能拿到的只是他債權憑證"},{"start":606.549,"end":620.948,"text":"第二個會有戰備空窗啊對不對如果說今天你說可以解約嘛對不對好那我們買炸藥是為了備戰欸不是為了打官司欸初次解約有什麼用戰備還是發生真空啊"},{"start":621.348,"end":639.455,"text":"那我在乎的是這個點嘛錢不錢是小事但是他可能會產生一個戰備的空窗這就是為什麼我們在採購的時候尤其對於巨額的採購我們設定很多條件嘛因為國家是希望採購能夠順利成功而不是希望未來可以去打官司打贏我想這個"},{"start":640.795,"end":663.8,"text":"這點我非常贊同所以我們就是開放開放所有的廠商重點就在於他絕標後一定要拿到輸出稀可證明啊時機是零今年進口也不到1600萬根本就違反巨額採購的標準因為你至少要2.36億要有五分之二的軍火交易經驗嘛但是他是零所以"},{"start":664.62,"end":693.488,"text":"如果今天喔 他是廠商是拿了國防部的合約去跟銀行抵押借錢繳押標金 保證金 這個叫做融資這不叫做實質的財力那我們的採購法為什麼一直希望來標的公司要有實質的財力就是不希望他到時候兩手一攤 我公司倒閉就沒事了國家還是希望一個非常良好的廠商來標因為我們希望每一個標都能夠順利 軍火能夠拿到所以啊"},{"start":695.526,"end":718.592,"text":"再來我想這次的絕標公告裡面有提到原產地是中華民國那我以為我看到了這個字眼我覺得原產地國別是中華民國那就應該是在中華民國生產但現在又爆出說是在其他地方可能印度可能美國那我就搞不清楚了這個是席產地嗎還是這個是詐欺這我就搞不懂了 地方嘛"},{"start":720.353,"end":740.392,"text":"會不會說事後解約然後這個所謂的我們嚴格審查機制其實是讓空國公司是不是全身而退這是把風險丟到第一線的過去然後我再跟你說因為我自己辦公室的一個助理女生她小孩差不多當兵的年紀她最近每天都很擔心她看到的是一個"},{"start":741.809,"end":760.448,"text":"我們看到新聞說原本好像是差不多8.24億的一個一個標案後來廠商有5.93億標下來看似替國家省了錢但是我們以前看過採購案的人都會覺得這種異常的低標將本求利的時代它會不會意味著偷工減料那我沒有下定論我說我會擔心這個點"},{"start":762.233,"end":779.793,"text":"那我今天這個炸藥 要嘛會不會是不穩定所以我們的子弟兵 我們的軍人拿到會不會容易有危險這第一個 第二個他會不會有不急發的問題那他在面對敵人的時候如果無法急發 無法完成任務這也是風險嘛"},{"start":780.914,"end":808.819,"text":"所以如果今天這個東西它這麼低價搶下來會不會有偷工減料 會不會有劣質炸藥要嘛不穩定 要嘛過於穩定無法集發這都是我們擔心的 這也都會影響到國家的安全那我想 你們講到這個國內無產能但是總是跟你們公告的東西產地要中華民國不一樣嘛那我們念法律就是看資料我一資料一看我也搞不懂為什麼你們講的跟原產地國別這個差距這麼遠"},{"start":811.144,"end":817.662,"text":"這個真的很奇怪所以我想說這個會不會是代表說這個公告只是刑事就國防部那一定要給誰就給誰"},{"start":820.152,"end":842.879,"text":"那個公告的欄位是因為在決標公告的時候我們沒有先讓他們提供產地來源等到後來得標商提供產地的證明資料以後我們就會更正決標的公告關於有關產地的資訊第三個公司的財力證明在哪裡我想我們必須要知道這個要跟各位報告"},{"start":845.04,"end":860.642,"text":"民進黨執政九年 國防預算翻三倍我當然是全力支持國防我一定支持我們要保衛我們的國土我們要對抗任何一個外來的政權或任何一個國家我們都要與你對抗我也絕對挺警察軍人 消防這些人我絕對挺到底"},{"start":861.323,"end":881.314,"text":"但是我們光預算漲三倍特別預算1.5兆就讓財力不足沒有交易經驗的公司去跨進來去能夠吃到甚至有人講說15億的開口合約這時候我們就會想說到底這個錢是拿來強化戰力還是餵養特定的廠商這是我們一直在擔心的"},{"start":882.194,"end":904.29,"text":"那剛剛部長確實有提到本案設定有違約金那其實我們看到了我們跟美國買F16V幾千億捧去了沒有飛機沒有違約金錢在美國生利息那今天好不容易國內的廠商我們可以罰了卻找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司一旦違約以他的資本額連5%你們訂的5%他都賠不起他5%已經繳了嘛所以"},{"start":909.602,"end":938.35,"text":"很多都是貸款的啦他5%的違約金已經繳在我們手上了嘛但是呢 部長你剛講的很威啦就有違約金 有解約 有求償 每一句話都有印但是我擔心的還是那個點第一個 小事情是罰不到這個是小事喔 小到不能再小事第二個 軍火拿不到這是我擔心的我們開這個表案是為了國防 為了保家衛國而不是為了他做不到以後我們再來跟他司法訴訟"},{"start":940.247,"end":959.385,"text":"我還是一樣支持國軍支持到底但我不想讓我們國人的血汗錢送到特定空殼廠商的口袋裡面那我也呼籲說國軍的弟兄姊妹只要看到這種類似的案子有任何懷疑都一定要勇敢站出來因為這不是扯國家後腿不是扯國軍後腿這在保護自己的生命那我跟部長報告我剛剛所提到"},{"start":960.126,"end":976.039,"text":"部長 實國家奉陸因中國家之事實國家奉陸因中國家之事我做過24年的公務員 我很清楚這個道理我們對國家都有忠誠義務我也相信你也很清楚這一點所以我們 好不好 我們把這個"},{"start":977.578,"end":999.37,"text":"我們搞清楚是怎麼回事那請國防部能夠站在一個協助大家釐清問題的那個角度而不是護航的角度我們把東西弄清楚讓國人知道國防部真的是認認真真在做採購我想大家會對於國防部將來的各項採購或特別預算會更加的信任更加的支持好不好我們一起做到這件事情謝謝部長"},{"start":1000.081,"end":1005.227,"text":"委員看起來都是只是在自己做自己的發言的內容部長你每次都講這種話我跟你講部長你每次都在講這種話你要嘛說你講的都不是事實你這個沒根據但是不是事實在哪裡沒有根據在哪裡你也不講嘛我剛講的東西"},{"start":1016.419,"end":1039.169,"text":"我剛剛講的東西 請問哪一個錯他履約 他只有1900萬的資本額 哪裡錯你們違約金5%是到2000多萬 哪裡錯那我要求的說 採購重點是國防拿得到的東西賠錢是小事 這哪裡錯 我都不知道這到底錯在哪裡 採購法的重點是你一直在講履約保證金 那我一直在重複履約保證已經繳了 你有聽進去嗎繳了也不足以顧及我們國家的安全 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}