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解都是要做治安的跟人員的查核沒有錯所以他需要有一定的查核他就跟一般就是比如說我今天可能在什麼其他的資訊的服務所以他要進入到營區所以是這個因為進入到營區所以他對於進入在進來的人我們要做對他做人員的"},{"start":217.831,"end":242.979,"text":"當然我們要對他做人員的調查對不對好 那我問一下喔那個部長你有沒有看過這個查行的負責人他對外說明的相關影片了不然我先問一下你有看過這個查行的負責人我沒有特別注意好 那我給您看一下好不好因為我覺得這個呢其實蠻重要的來 我們播一下影片你們才10萬的資本額可以做這麼大的生意會不會覺得很誇張我覺得蠻勵志的政府標案大概拿下幾件"},{"start":243.659,"end":260.07,"text":"56件有啦 56件就是包括这一次的对啊 就是加起来这样子后来就也不找那个住店的啦因为住店要再请人什么的关你很麻烦我们都是找那种维护就是他如果有报休我们就过去这样子那你这边说你有咨询工程背景可不可以拿出你的学历证"},{"start":260.41,"end":288.251,"text":"太突然了啦可是妳是什麼大學畢業的我數德科技大學數科大對資訊管理系的是學士還是碩士學士而已學士嗯盤下這個茶葉行之前跟黃君先生就認識的這邊是蠻關鍵等一下我會再問她也是有資訊背景的對啊她該不會是同學同校的沒有啦她跟我差十歲她比你大十歲她大概幾歲的人啊她大概我十歲我現在三十歲她四十歲你們是因為有資訊背景才認識的然後她後來把這個盤給你"},{"start":290.793,"end":309.765,"text":"但是現在就是你用洪璋這個名字去標國防部的案子其實你們沒有合作關係單純就是你這邊跟你另外一個夥伴就是我們就是工程師會討論我們就兩個人而已啦所以他完全都跟他無關就對了只是有些事情會跟他請教對啊因為他真的就不是事業夥伴這樣子"},{"start":310.465,"end":338.08,"text":"事業夥伴我之前有聘他當員工幫我跑過對 幫我跑過幾個維修的點對 但他就是就是工讀生的部分這樣他要做你的工讀生沒有啦 就是因為我們就是用工讀生的時間上時速算 對啊就 但是就是不是正式員工你論見記仇的就對 他就不是因為畢竟他來幫我工作他說因為來工作要保勞保所以就不把他聘為正式的員工"},{"start":339.341,"end":355.118,"text":"我就是給您看一下這一段而已第一個我從這個投影片裡面看到幾個問題想要逐一跟部長您來請教首先呢這位負責人他有提到國防部在開標的時候他連開標都沒有去國防部打電話通知他標到了"},{"start":356.219,"end":377.898,"text":"開標當日確實廠商沒有義務一定要到場可是這個涉及精品性的標案在公開場合說出跟國防部的互動這樣的鑑別能力是否代表了我們從結果上看來這個查行得標的兩岸是有疑慮的再來您可能不知道在社群軟體上面他自己承認自己是人頭我想您可能不知道這件事情這是怎麼講的這個"},{"start":381.093,"end":395.058,"text":"其實還有另外一張啦反正總之他說反正我只是人頭應該也沒事吧沒有我也沒差吧不管今天他這個是諷刺自己他可能是他諷刺自己他說反正不管怎麼說都會有人說我是人頭啊頭砍下來給你們好了"},{"start":396.618,"end":423.857,"text":"他可能是諷刺自己但是無論他是陳述事實或是諷刺自己我相信他茶葉做得很好也很用心但今天如果我們的標案是什麼茶葉的禮盒年節禮品我一點意見都沒有但涉及到我們的資通訊的安全能夠在社群平台上面寫出就是跟國防部的這個互動嗎比如22小時之前我們跟國防部的人說了我們也可以廢標啊等等之類的"},{"start":424.637,"end":433.273,"text":"這些都是顯示出了這個茶行他在這樣子的一個資訊安全的標案上面他其實不具敏感性的喔再來他還說"},{"start":434.98,"end":464.101,"text":"他還會做很多事情啊除了賣茶葉之外學音樂、路跑、攀岩、潛水、熱炒店物流、會計、行銷還會織毛線這些東西都跟這個他所標到的案件一點關係都沒有那不斷的這樣子發言的過程只會讓大家覺得那這個茶行到底是因為這個老闆他有其專業還是他背後有人那我們看一下他其實在裡面有講到因為他大概有十分多鐘我沒有時間這樣一一去講"},{"start":464.741,"end":481.096,"text":"他的意思是說他們有兩個人那對方也不是他的員工但是他們看到標案呢就會去標標看他的原文是說好像可以標標看所以對於標到國防部的案子自己都不相信只跟一個所謂工程師到底是誰我們也不知道"},{"start":481.556,"end":500.687,"text":"在沒有股東沒有合夥人沒有實際員工的情況下他說公開說的他們兩個人賺請問我們是如何評估投票標準是否適宜不應該是不是只看對方的表面否則如果今天這個公司他洩密我們對這個公司完全沒有了解那對方是直接可以跑路的啊"},{"start":501.167,"end":511.734,"text":"那我想請問一下部長您剛看了這個負責人的影片之後您對於這個查行他所標到我們的兩項的資訊資安的維護案你覺得合宜嗎阿委員基本上我們是看廠商的資格那至於說他這個負責人他剛剛所講的裡面並不代表這個成為這個購案是不是成立的這個這個佐證因為我們是看廠商的資格"},{"start":530.666,"end":533.467,"text":"你去看廠商的資格對不對我下一個就要問你必須要再補充的這個案子海軍司令部有確認因為它這是一個系統的維護它不是機敏障礙那它系統維護都會把基本上那你們不是說他們也要進營區了嗎來我繼續問"},{"start":548.595,"end":567.154,"text":"這個小姐的說法公司只有兩個人他本人在做茶葉很忙所以他們是用臨時工而且他們沒有駐點的工程師是為了要省錢他們承包的案子叫做有人報休之後再找工讀生去請問類似這樣子約聘工讀生的狀況合適做你們剛剛所說的資安相關的尾運嗎合適嗎"},{"start":571.869,"end":587.784,"text":"所有的作業人員我們依據國軍的規定他不管找誰跟誰合作他進營區都必須要經過他提供名單提供這個施工人員名單我們國防部會做人員查核查核同意了那你們查核到黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進過營區了嗎"},{"start":591.465,"end":597.39,"text":"這個要問實際的這個來 我剛剛講工讀生是什麼樣的人來干擾我剛剛講嘛他說他會找工讀生去幫忙去維護嘛這個工讀生所謂維護資訊安全也就是他原本的負責人實際上過往真的有以資訊公司叫做軍威科技的黃鴻鈞來做投標的"},{"start":611.42,"end":627.749,"text":"可是這個黃宏鈞的軍威科技因為涉及三起三起偽造廠商資格投標包含 上面很清楚他投標立法院被發現有問題被拒絕給付 然後呢提告韓國瑜院長輸掉官司法務部也告他詐欺 判刑確定"},{"start":628.749,"end":657.584,"text":"在這個事情之後 軍威科技照理來說這個黃鴻鈞他要被列為黑名單結果他利用所謂查行盤給這個林姓負責人30歲年輕女生 我覺得他敢出來面對媒體 我也給他肯定但是呢 一下子是說兩個人沒關係一下說聘用黃鴻鈞先生作為公讀生那等於你把前負責人回聘進來又說是技術上的資源 甚至投標的地址是在黃鴻鈞先生的外公家"},{"start":658.544,"end":682.202,"text":"所以我想要請問一下那這個案子到底是黃鴻鈞在飆還是林小姐在飆啊跟委員報告一下第一個這個您講的那一家這個軍威公司它被停權的這個是從108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號那軍威公司從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的飆案"},{"start":682.782,"end":687.626,"text":"那關於你講的這個紅樟茶行呢他是在111年11月22號來決標的當時也沒有有任何這一個紅樟茶行被停權那你講的那個軍威公司他的停權的時間點也是在事實上是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號"},{"start":708.662,"end":736.569,"text":"那另外再跟委員報告因為這是一個150萬元以下為公告金額以下的一個採購案件所以我想他們這個部分如果按照這個規定採購法的49條的規定吧它是屬於這一個公開取得三家以上的廠商的素面的企劃書然後責符和需要者就辦理筆價或溢價的這個程序"},{"start":737.13,"end":737.731,"text":"都是完全依照公開"},{"start":741.026,"end":757.452,"text":"全部都是依照政府採購法的相關規定來辦我當然知道你們會說用政府採購法的相關規定來辦嘛但是我要講的事情就是說今天這個查行他來標這個案子他是不是掛羊頭賣狗肉你們自己可以看一下這個相關的判決113年度那跟立法院之間的告訴關係還有呢所謂的這個被這個法務部去提告的"},{"start":767.116,"end":791.858,"text":"那還有他們過程當中他們剛剛所自己陳述提出的跟他們在做維修維護的方式我要問的是不是你們當時說喔我當初我在開標的時候他們有沒有按照這個資料有沒有來然後給你審核完我問的是結果就是說從這個結果上來看他們用第一個取消駐點人員因為要省錢第二個把一家錢"},{"start":794.559,"end":822.367,"text":"這個資訊公司也就是黃鴻鈞的公司然後呢把他拿過來請他當工讀生進到我們的營區裡面來做維修第三個只是為了不要讓他保老保增加所謂的公司的開支再來呢這個他們登記的投標的所謂的投標他登記的地址是黃鴻鈞的外公家這些事情當時事前有做過查核事後我們回頭追溯這件事情的時候你們覺得他這樣子做合理合法嗎"},{"start":824.5,"end":836.124,"text":"包委員您剛剛講的他有一些投標遭受到一些刑罰的問題跟這個案子沒有關係他是軍威公司我知道嘛我說所以就是因為他出了問題之後所以這個查行然後呢他就呢我呢就把你聘用為你不要來投標用我本來的公司我把我本來的公司過給你林小姐"},{"start":847.808,"end":857.22,"text":"讓你林小姐去投標 林小姐得標之後那還是我黃鴻鈞來做但是呢 我又不想要讓我的名字在裡面出現所以呢 我就用公獨生的名義來負責這個維運他們的形勢狀況就是這樣啊"},{"start":861.324,"end":881.472,"text":"我想就鴻章公司來講他的營業項目也就是有資訊軟體的這一個相關的服務業的這樣子的營業項目那您提到的那個111年的海軍佐治部的案子是一個80萬的一個預算金額我都講的是茶行63萬9998元那這個也都已經經過驗收合格已經結案了"},{"start":889.435,"end":906.14,"text":"對 所以我在說你們的驗收你們的所謂的合格 你們的結案你們知道他沒有設駐點人員嗎你們知道他取消駐點人員是為了他自己說是為了要省錢嗎你們知道他們公司裡面是派工讀生去給你維修嗎他沒有告訴你這件事情嗎 你們知道嗎這個合約啊 據我們了解他是要完成這個系統的維護並沒有要求廠商要駐點"},{"start":914.765,"end":924.415,"text":"他本來有做註點的人員嘛但是呢他這個標的案子之後他就覺得好像也不需要了所以呢為了要省錢多賺一點他說他跟另外一個工程師他們想要兩個人賺這個錢嘛那不管怎麼樣我們是以合約執行期間那這個案子並沒有要求他註點至於說委員剛剛講他在標的之前他有註點那這個我們待會要查證"},{"start":937.048,"end":953.803,"text":"那再來就是說你所謂的用工讀生這件事情是為了規避投保他剛剛講了他為什麼要請工讀生去做維運而不是有一個固定的人專業的人去做然後呢是要用工讀生而且這個工讀生就是另外一家科技公司的老闆來做這件事情他講說不然我要幫他去保勞保"},{"start":954.824,"end":980.143,"text":"那我們的廠商 國防部的廠商弄成這個樣子 你覺得很合宜嗎 黃委員您請 不能以工讀生來判定他能不能這個執行 不是不是不是你沒有聽懂我的意思 他說他請工讀生的原因是因為他不想幫人家保勞保所以用這個方式可以節省他公司的開支那像這樣子的一個廠商 這個部分屬於勞資雙方對於 就是說"},{"start":982.825,"end":986.347,"text":"是你們在給他標案的時候或許你可以告訴我們說你可以告訴我們說當時我們不知道可是現在這個事情已經公佈出來他都這麼陳述了那請問你們有沒有要處理有沒有要去查核嘛我問的是這個問題嘛這應該跟呂業的事項沒有關聯嘛"},{"start":1001.827,"end":1027.927,"text":"你認為這樣OK以後大家來標我們的來標我們的案子裡面然後呢他標了之後他自己的勞資關係然後他去用所謂的去把前一個公司的然後呢他有這個黑資料的然後把他聘來用工讀生然後不要保勞保給他然後用這種方式來維護我們國家的資安你們都覺得很合理你們都覺得在這個事情爆發之後他自己也出來坦承這件事情之後查也不用查就讓他這樣過去下一次再繼續標給他是嗎"},{"start":1030.009,"end":1054.495,"text":"委員我想我們就合約來論合約那合約的履行我們有沒有符合在招標的時候符合政務採購法相關規定履約的過程我們有沒有確實讓他進行一個履約然後履約完畢之後我們來進行那個驗收結案這個才是重點至於其他的我想很多這個勞務之間他"},{"start":1057.756,"end":1069.719,"text":"勞資之間啦勞資之間他有任何相關的一個糾紛就我們甲方的立場當然這個有相關的部會可以來處理那我們作為甲方立場我們就是盡量把這個合約完進行完成嘛你們要處理嗎我先前你們在做那個營造的時候然後裡面有抓到這個非法移工的你們也會去處理啊你們也不是說哎呀那是這個營造商跟這個這個移工的事情啊不關我們的國防部的事情"},{"start":1083.582,"end":1104.273,"text":"怎麼到了這個事情上面就變成是他們自己勞資糾紛的事呢然後你也要我們會請相關部會去了解我要再強調一次你像海軍內岸好了當時也有其他的資訊公司來飆那你們在資訊公司跟查航之間你們不猶豫的選擇了讓查航來做這樣子的一個資訊資安委員啊"},{"start":1104.793,"end":1110.615,"text":"我們沒有不由於因為剛剛已經講過了就是依照這個未達150萬的金額那他有相關的資格那我們就根據這個溢價他們比價的結果來進行這樣子的一個對 這就是一個問題因為你們只單看比價你們沒有想要嘗試去了解說這家公司他的這個營運狀況他裡面有沒有一些問題像比如說他"},{"start":1129.56,"end":1144.429,"text":"他只有一個人然後呢沒有員工這件事你們事前知道嗎你們事前知道這家茶行來做我們的60萬100萬的維運資安維運裡面沒有其他員工嗎只有一個很忙的茶行的老闆娘你們知道嗎"},{"start":1145.109,"end":1150.872,"text":"包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不知道包委員請聽我說包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不會知道等一下開標的時候哪些廠商會來那但是我們開標的時候我們是針對廠商的這個資格來查那至於說開標之前我不知道紅章來我第一個我不知道紅章會來第二個我不知道紅章查他的這個裡面的這個他的成員是怎麼樣我們是以廠商資格為"},{"start":1172.623,"end":1179.886,"text":"是啊 但是你到時候進到營區的時候你們不都說會填他們的相關資料了嗎所以我剛剛問說黃宏鈞先生有沒有進到營區裡面去幫你們做相關的服務嘛有沒有嘛有 那你也知道有啊那你前面跟我講這麼多你為什麼不剛剛跟我說有呢所以我剛剛問說"},{"start":1192.21,"end":1213.375,"text":"問黃鴻章的時候 黃鴻鈞對不起黃鴻鈞的時候為什麼你不跟我說有就好呢實際上就是你們就知道這個黃鴻鈞先生他以工讀生的名義然後到了營區裡面去做這個資訊維護但是他先前就是鴻鈞科技老闆然後呢他把他原本的公司給了這個林小姐讓林小姐去標標完之後實際上在做的還是他自己"},{"start":1213.755,"end":1231.425,"text":"包委員真的我們開標的時候我們不會知道他過去這個負責人有更換怎麼樣的但是我們以現在你投標是誰哪個公司名義哪個負責人哪個這個他的公司的資格合不合規定那至於他過往你剛剛已經重複過我時間不夠你這個長話短說好不好請用書面回答已經超過十分鐘了好不好"},{"start":1237.788,"end":1254.637,"text":"拜託今天既然人家已經都把事情講出來了裡面有很多可能違反勞基法可能違反相關的一些法律或者是可能跟他當初投標的時候跟你們講的不一樣的地方都應該要好好的去做相關的查核可以嗎好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}