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麻煩請國安局長 國防部長有請蔡局長 顧部長請局長首先"},{"start":19.128,"end":35.58,"text":"兩位早局長首先我們在今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說在這個美日飛他的連演有將那個提風的這個中程導彈部署到日本的山口縣對不對局長"},{"start":39.95,"end":56.313,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下剛剛在那個專報口報過程當中有特別提到颱風飛彈不過它這個飛彈是它在演訓的時候它才會部署到委員關切的南溪諸島的部分平時並沒有部署在這個地方但一旦有在危機發生或演訓的時候所以它現在還在不在"},{"start":56.613,"end":59.715,"text":"現在不在 已經不在了 只是因為這個報導讓我們看起來會覺得說好像他還部署在那裡所以其實我們希望你在提供報告的或者說明的時候必須很明確因為這樣子會誤導我們所有的安全防衛的這樣子的一個概念那因為在最近大家都可以看得到不管是東海 台海"},{"start":81.188,"end":85.77,"text":"還有南海其實都發生比較可能激烈的一些狀況那我們也看到大陸對日本的軍演因為我們從上一次培洛西來台以後其實我們的壓力其實限縮的越來越大那也像現在周邊的區域其實也面臨到這樣的影響那我們現在對這樣的演習用比較簡單的方式可不可以提出來"},{"start":110.35,"end":111.932,"text":"因為剛剛有提到說美國對我們還是非常重視像台灣的地理地位在第一島鏈然後可是說台灣在最新的國家安全戰略裡面它的重要性也明顯的上升"},{"start":127.153,"end":139.626,"text":"可是美國卻把過去反對任何單方面改變台海現狀的表述把它改成不支持任何單方面改變台海現狀這個部分我想就剛剛提到的整體的狀況還有現在的一個狀況我們國安局延期的意見到底是什麼"},{"start":148.956,"end":175.275,"text":"大概跟委員簡單報告說明一下就因為中共在海空的武力的擴張近期確實是動作比較多簡單的說明 延期這個部分第一個部分就是在美國的這些公開的戰略文件當中大概都表達了對於第一島鏈安全的一個關注 第一部分第二部分是在串聯區域友盟應該要投注更多的一個國防資源來提升防衛的力量"},{"start":175.635,"end":195.215,"text":"那這也是剛剛在報告的時候提到美國印太戰略裡面有三個重要的支柱一個就是確保相關海域通道的暢通一個就是區友盟分擔防衛的責任第三個就是美國進行必要的前進部署所以整體的趨勢態勢大概是出現美盟有點在遏制中國的軍事擴張的這樣的一個基本的圖像"},{"start":195.874,"end":199.656,"text":"看起來局長剛剛說明似乎是這樣可是我們看到他現實的舉動並不是這樣做我們看到有很多過去包括航母艦隊包括他們的戰鬥機他們那時候在關島或者現在的中程導彈的一個相關的部署其實都是往後退而且都是退出"},{"start":216.647,"end":220.829,"text":"這樣第一島鏈的一個狀況就是過去跟現在其實你可能跟他比較的時間的長短我們現在要的是比較現實面的到底對我們會造成什麼樣的影響剛剛提出來似乎還是覺得是我們有受到他們還是有強化然後我們可能還是在這一方面其實還是可以跟郵盟還是可以信任美國可是我們看到的事實上的一個具體的狀況好像不是這樣"},{"start":246.661,"end":251.604,"text":"那接下來就我們目前區域的緊張態勢因為如果照這樣說它跟以前過去沒有太大的改變我們現在的很多的舉措或者我們現在對外的一個發表的一些相關的言論包括國防部還有包括我們現在想要提升的這樣的一個國防預算似乎都是不太融合的"},{"start":274.64,"end":278.081,"text":"他是背道而馳他說我在這裡先請教一下我們部長好了因為國防部近日對外有提到如果共軍突然行動國軍將採取所謂的去中心化的指揮然後不帶命令即可作戰我想要先請教一個基礎的問題國防部所稱的去中心化指揮它具體是指什麼"},{"start":300.044,"end":304.266,"text":"我想他要跟這個然後他 我把他問完他的制度依據跟適用的層級為何這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 我想我們的主要的重點都在於要讓各層級的部隊都要知道他上級給賦予的任務所以這叫做一個任務室指揮的概念"},{"start":321.514,"end":343.663,"text":"那麼他在這樣子的一個遂行他所必須被託物的任務的情況之下他要能夠進行這個就算沒有一個中心的一個給他的一個指揮的情況之下他仍然能夠遂行他的任務所以這是一個任務是指揮去中心化指管的一個概念"},{"start":345.219,"end":353.562,"text":"那所以他要應對各種的可能的一些狀況來做相對應的應變處置所以我再請教部長剛剛您說他大概的狀況嘛那是什麼樣的層級他是一個什麼樣的層級可以去做這樣的一個事"},{"start":369.309,"end":375.052,"text":"這個您講的是指狀況還是講成績如果成績不管是戰略 作戰 戰術都必須要大家都清楚自己的哪一個成績 我確認一個前提因為漢光演習跟學界其實這些都有討論過去中心化或者任務室的指揮"},{"start":394.798,"end":398.719,"text":"可是這些是不是都建立在戰爭狀態已經成立然後任務已經下達的前提之下是不是我想從灰色地帶的洗澡灰色地帶的洗澡也包含在應處的如何應處的範圍之內那我們會將灰色地帶洗澡分成低中高的這個強度他要隨時要應對這樣子的一個"},{"start":419.264,"end":422.727,"text":"我們先回答一個就好因為灰色洗腦是你們說的那大家不知道啊包括你的所有的作戰的這些軍事官兵他們的成績他沒有辦法很明確的知道請告訴我們"},{"start":437.279,"end":445.681,"text":"如果像剛剛去中心化或者任務是去中心化的任務是指揮這個是不是在建立在戰爭狀態已經成立而且任務已經下達的這個前提之下是或不是如果委員問的是這一段的話這一段所講的當然是在於突然發起攻擊的這個前提之下"},{"start":459.904,"end":476.901,"text":"但是在灰色地帶的這個應出上面我說的不是灰色地帶我想要請部長明確的回答像去中心化這樣的指揮體系是指戰爭已經成立是或不是我們在睡醒防衛作戰的時候會更強調"},{"start":477.822,"end":500.836,"text":"沒有 是或不是啦我們會更強調這樣的任務是指揮跟去中心化的執管所以是在戰爭已經成立了嗎就已經是拉動戰爭因為戰爭開始之後 我們的這個所謂的去中心化這個觀念要被強調的原因是因為共軍對我們的進行所謂的第一級的時候我們確實是比較有可能面臨這個狀況"},{"start":502.728,"end":528.075,"text":"你說說我們展開第一集還是共軍共軍展開第一集所以這個已經是戰爭成立嘛就您的說法應該是要更在戰爭發起的時候就被被打到第一集的情況之下我們更要強調這樣子的一個任務所以已經是戰爭成立的情況之下嘛你就已經被第一集已經受到恭喜不能夠排除灰色地帶的洗腦也有面對"},{"start":528.875,"end":530.697,"text":"這個土花狀況的一個處置的一個問題部長因為這些論述從來都不是用來授權基層單位因為你剛剛講的灰色洗澡或者什麼樣的一個狀況漢光演習或者其他學界早就有在討論這些然後也有類似的任務指揮"},{"start":549.448,"end":551.791,"text":"他並不是沒有這個指揮體系啦可是我們現在剛剛講的這些都從來沒有用在授權基層單位自行判斷是否進入戰爭狀態對不對"},{"start":565.702,"end":570.847,"text":"由基層單位去判斷說這個是不是進入戰爭狀態因為你說進入戰爭狀態以後你才會有去中心化這個問題那現在剛剛已經是明確這樣子那這樣子我們也沒有授權基層去判斷是不是戰爭狀態 對不對"},{"start":585.808,"end":602.299,"text":"我們應該如果委員講所謂戰爭狀態我不太確定說你講是指一個全面戰爭我們現在在這裡比較著重在於他受到軍事攻擊的狀態軍事攻擊就是已經進入狀態他當面就受到軍事攻擊嘛"},{"start":603.997,"end":626.744,"text":"這樣子很不清楚因為你們沒有授權基層去判斷戰爭狀態我想要請教是或不是是或不是基層可不可以去判斷是不是戰爭狀態我們之所以要強調這個也是因為我們所面對的威脅他所存在的狀態並不必然一定是在準戰爭狀態下的灰色地帶那你講一個具體的"},{"start":632.006,"end":652.12,"text":"我們的基層可以自行判斷是不是可以講一個具體的因為你現在已經分析過很多我們就是因為這個威脅存在所以才在平時的時候就要訓練我們的基層官兵理解到這些狀況之下的時候它可能存在哪一種狀態你講一個具體的嘛比方說此時此刻"},{"start":653.191,"end":678.816,"text":"共軍正在對我們做聯合戰備警訊如果我們等到這些狀態在瞬間由訓轉演 由演轉戰基層官兵還要等到我們中央再來給他指揮的時候那恐怕會來不及那所以我們在平常的時候就應該要訓練我們的基層的主官具備這樣的知識還有這樣的能力來面對共軍這樣子快速轉變的這個敵情變化謝謝"},{"start":681.764,"end":685.467,"text":"那你過去花了這麼多錢你未來還要花很多錢建立的這些連戰指揮系統或者你的情資因為只有為什麼我們要建立這些系統他就是因為你才能夠掌握全盤今天如果只有一個單純的基層他看到這個狀況比如說像之前日本的那個那個戰鬥機被鎖定的時候他有可能被打的時候那他可不可以這個"},{"start":711.184,"end":730.671,"text":"你們到現在我想簡單的跟委員我就幾句話我們強調去中心化就是說就是不管是軍事戰略層級或者是作戰層級或者戰術層級都在區中區分中心化的指揮跟分散式的管制跟去中心化的執行就要讓各級確實了解上一指揮官他的企圖那麼透過任務是指揮授權及責任區的賦予我們結合了交戰規則授權任務部隊因地制宜"},{"start":740.894,"end":744.425,"text":"要來果斷的遂行他應該互解他的一個任務"},{"start":745.95,"end":751.974,"text":"部長 這樣子我想基層分不出來你們剛剛講的基層分不出來我想先請教我們先請教部長那個不是演練的問題那是你在做決策的時候為什麼我們要有這樣的一個中心化的指揮那你要去中心化 那個可以可是你必須要很具體我先請教一下局長好了在共軍突然行動的時候比如說他強電池干擾"},{"start":774.827,"end":795.86,"text":"他通聯不穩的情況之下國安局是否能保證我們的情資可以及時完整的送達到第一線作戰單位作戰單位的情報的指揮跟分享可能還是國防部這邊那我們這邊主要是基於國安的層級的情報那會在高層決策的時候把這個整體的態勢做一個分析"},{"start":797.156,"end":802.24,"text":"所以他有可能這是國防部負責的嘛 對不對他的情資你判斷他的在強電池干擾或者通聯不穩的情況之下他是不是有辦法把情資完整的送到第一線的作戰單位回答是或不是我想國防部對於通訊任性的部分應該有他的相關整備計畫由國防部來說明會比較詳細一點"},{"start":822.523,"end":825.885,"text":"我們現在在講的是情資因為國安局對於情資是最清楚的我特別請教國安局是因為在極端的情況之下沒有辦法保證及時到位所以我們問的是非常關鍵的問題在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前基層是否被授權啟動武力行動"},{"start":852.948,"end":876.522,"text":"這個部分由國防部來回答好了在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前曾幾是否被授權啟動武力行動我們的基層跟委員報告如果委員一定要這樣區分的話我們可以分成兩個第一個就是我們還沒有遭受到真實的攻擊第二個是我們遭受到真實的攻擊委員意思是要問這一段嗎"},{"start":877.802,"end":892.709,"text":"那如果我們遭受到 因為你去中心化我們遭受到真實的攻擊那個攻擊狀態已經形成了所以你說是戰鬥狀態已經形成那我們在攻擊的狀態形成之後我們當然要設想最壞的狀況有可能我們的中心的指揮的體系"},{"start":894.107,"end":909.53,"text":"被斷掉啊所以我們現在想的就是一個最壞的scenario那如果至於是還沒有發生真實戰爭的狀態我們剛剛已經講我們會立即備戰操演二級這樣接不來 一級這樣接不來這個當然在還沒有受到攻擊的情況之下"},{"start":910.311,"end":928.451,"text":"當然我們的中心的指揮還存在我要的答案就是你剛剛一直在說明的所以不管他是不是由基層已經去在訊號中斷的情況之下訊息中斷或者指揮體系中斷的情況之下他可以自行去做判斷先決條件是已經發生戰爭"},{"start":930.814,"end":947.676,"text":"你的意思是這樣嗎對 已經被攻擊嘛所以因為我們為什麼今天要特別提出來我們在看看到國防部對外說可以去中心化的時候這個國軍快速反應的必要性而且離這個是非常重要的啦他在因為沒有辦法"},{"start":949.217,"end":952.2,"text":"去達到一個整體的一個指揮體系的時候他這個快速反應是很重要可是我們要釐清一個關鍵的界限就是哪些決策可以下放哪些決策絕對不可以下放去中心化這個軍事軍事上他確實存在啊"},{"start":967.794,"end":970.617,"text":"可是他只是用在戰爭狀態因為我們看出來看起來你在對外發表的時候好像在非戰爭狀態他如果受到什麼樣的攻擊他可以自行去也自己可以發動這樣的攻擊"},{"start":982.657,"end":1004.808,"text":"所以你明確的是說在戰爭狀態發生以後嘛對不對我想我們都是一個防衛作戰我們會進行所進行的都是一個自衛區的形式這個非常重要是當國防部對外使用去中心化並且搭配不符合命令即可作戰的這個說法的時候層級被混用了因為我們想要釐清的是這一點一旦"},{"start":1012.012,"end":1016.555,"text":"他的責任會被模糊掉一旦情資不完整或者通聯中斷最終可能把本來應該由國家承擔的風險國家才可以去做這樣子決策判斷的時候你把他轉嫁到基層的官兵身上所以我們才會討論在不在這個不是戰術的細節喔我們一直在確保戰爭判斷是到底是哪一個層級到底是在怎麼樣的一個界線底下去做的"},{"start":1042.052,"end":1048.624,"text":"所以你在對外說這個去中心化的時候必須要讓這個很清楚明白所以剛剛部長提到的就是已經戰爭發生了嘛這個我們想要明確這一點 是不是"},{"start":1054.581,"end":1059.284,"text":"我剛剛已經提到了就是說就是戰爭已經發生啦就是戰爭已經發生所以我們的基層可以自行去做判斷因為部長這個很重要你只要回答是或不是你的去中心化的說辭是這樣嗎我們在報告裡面已經提到是當遭受到突然發起攻擊的時候"},{"start":1074.492,"end":1076.294,"text":"所以我剛已經說明很清楚了在去中心化指揮的這種情況之下的前提當然是他在"},{"start":1087.099,"end":1092.663,"text":"攻擊的狀態之下的一個是比較應該是會發生的這樣可能的狀況最糟糕的情況會發生這樣的狀況因為你剛剛已經說明了就是戰爭啟動的一個狀態之下因為戰爭啟動是國家發生的這個對於後續追究責任的時候萬一有戰爭罪或其他的罪行的時候是很重要的所以不要把它推給基層的官兵"},{"start":1114.179,"end":1119.98,"text":"去中心化他就是在戰爭已經發生以後這是有國家層級必須要去承擔這樣子的一個責任跟風險我們今天要特別詢問的是這個那剛剛我也聽到有我們徐小新委員提到的這個問題我們再把它點出來這個不是合約的問題今天如果我們為什麼要分軍網跟民網為什麼我們有內網跟外網今天他的他的那個"},{"start":1142.386,"end":1152.135,"text":"招票金額雖然很低可是如果他隨便的一個人就是他們所謂不管你要不要用公讀生去定義他隨便一個人可以進到營區我們為什麼要花大錢去設警監系統我們為什麼要花大錢去買那個我們所有的無人機的監偵系統為什麼我們要嚴格的設軍網"},{"start":1166.969,"end":1171.211,"text":"花大錢在我們的資訊上面或者我們的電展電展室上面我們所有的全部都是要保護這個結果你因為他一個小案就是因為小案所以你不注意你不注意這個人就可以趁虛而入如果他想要攻擊他想要做駭客他想要有什麼其他的我們沒有讓他趁虛而入啊部長部長你把它聽完我們都會有人在那邊"},{"start":1192.603,"end":1197.046,"text":"然後呢我們當然也會做安全查核全程在那邊監控然後維護營區的安全跟他秘密的所在不會去嗎部長這幾天來你們一直都是在講這一個部分如果這樣子可以的話我剛剛提到的那些預算你都不用花你只要你在做什麼的時候旁邊有人看著就好這是我剛剛要特別提出來的這是兩件部長"},{"start":1221.599,"end":1223.44,"text":"那個不是兩件事到現在你還不知道它的重要性為什麼我們要做軍網跟民網的區隔你今天不管你海軍或者其他的他只要連上網他都可能可以做什麼樣的手腳"},{"start":1239.585,"end":1254.618,"text":"你們如果還要再解釋的是合約的內容或者那個對象一點都沒有把重點放在這裡如果是這樣好像你們也不需要太多的預算你現在有提到的是資安的部分資安的部分我們當然也會做查核啊這個要不要請同事再跟你"},{"start":1259.741,"end":1287.304,"text":"委員好 因為只要是涉及到資通設備的我們有訂辦一個國軍委外辦理資通系統服務的所有資安管控 軍網的網路是不是都可以連結除了非常機敏 軍網是不是可以連結如果我是一個高手我想要從裡面拿取資料會不會困難所以所以 國安局長國安局長回答這一題如果我們的軍網我們為什麼要做區隔如果有一個"},{"start":1288.505,"end":1296.589,"text":"高手他想要有什麼樣的情資他有沒有辦法從這裡去獲取有沒有辦法高手我們有沒有辦法有沒有辦法是有辦法但是只要是有我們要的是這個答案如果你今天有一個人在旁邊看著"},{"start":1306.516,"end":1310.498,"text":"都會有人看著那以後不要編預算了你在這樣的預算底下你根本不需要你只要旁邊有人看著你不需要再花大錢百億 十億這樣的預算去做這樣的治安管控如果是這樣被害不用到現場"},{"start":1327.845,"end":1330.588,"text":"今天為什麼我們不然我跟你講一個重要的概念今天我們營區進去為什麼要管制我如果有一個工作生我現在隨便一個人因為你如果是一個有信用的一個公司可以讓我們可以隨時追蹤的"},{"start":1347.288,"end":1350.59,"text":"那你當然會有一個對象你比較好管控嘛這是我們軍方跟其他的行政部會或者其他單位不同的地方今天你們一直今天也這樣照昨天也這樣照大家在乎的並不是你的合約是不是合法而是說你在軍方的管制本來就是比較重要的你的錢越少他越容易讓人家趁虛而入因為你覺得不重要所以我就可以進來"},{"start":1376.564,"end":1377.047,"text":"趁虛而入 部長謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}