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我們麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":10.345,"end":38.304,"text":"部長早安我想我們還是延續星期一的問題把幾個我還是不太理解的問題再就交於部長部長我們看了一下就是您交的那一份台海情勢跟國軍戰備報告第三頁還有第五頁其實有反覆強調一件事就是共軍的威脅嚴峻國軍必須隨時備戰所以我想這代表了就是我們國家目前處境是危險"},{"start":39.865,"end":58.696,"text":"這一秒鐘的戰備空窗都不應該有因為我們目前是一個危險的狀況那一樣我還是回到那個問題既然這麼危急那像這種RDX這種關鍵的炸藥那全台灣只有一家裝修公司得標而且它財力又遠遠不及我們的那個巨額採購標準"},{"start":60.197,"end":86.241,"text":"法規裡面他在第五條第一項其實有提到一些建議的條件嘛那這樣感覺就很像獨門生意啊那可以麻煩部長再說明一下謝謝部長相反的我們不是獨門生意我們是公開採購那麼任何符合這個都來投標這個就是比較廣增商源好謝謝部長那我想喔因為我自己看啦就是我自己看了這個案子"},{"start":87.765,"end":103.737,"text":"8.24億然後得標廠商是用5.93億強下所以這個看起來好像其實他這個案子是一個在投標當時會讓廠商覺得是一個有利有利潤的案子我過往遇過的一些標案是"},{"start":104.457,"end":125.417,"text":"根本沒有利潤所以沒有廠商要來標或是一兩家覺得他可以節約成本的來標那像這個8.2C但是5.93億就可以搶下看起來好像是一個有利潤的案子但是卻只有一家來標那我先跟部長報告一下我過往在懲辦這種標案的犯罪的時候"},{"start":126.218,"end":142.095,"text":"我看到這樣的案例我第一個會想到這個會不會有可能是外部自己微標好了第二個有沒有可能是資格上面去綁標我是說以前我過往處理案件我第一個就會想到所以我們沒有綁標沒有沒有我不是說本案"},{"start":142.715,"end":163.833,"text":"我是說跟部長報告過往我看到一個有利潤出來的案子卻只有一家廠商來標的時候我第一個在辦案的時候我會去思考第一個是不是外部就為標為好了第二個有沒有可能資格上面特定綁某些特殊規格這是我過往的工作經驗我不是說本案所以"},{"start":165.307,"end":183.68,"text":"我就覺得一個很奇怪目前我國有實質營運國際貿易許可進出口的廠商我查了一下有35萬家但是這次有利潤卻只有一家來所以我才會一直跟部長就教這件事情"},{"start":184.52,"end":200.818,"text":"那因為你有提到說火藥的原料其實是管制的門檻很高那國內其他有很多一些大廠 軍火大廠或有一些曾經有這種實際經歷經驗實機的貿易商卻做不到那一家日本就1900萬去年才臨時變更登記"},{"start":204.062,"end":224.07,"text":"的這種菜鳥公司可以拿到所以我當時才會一直覺得說只有兩種可能一個就是這個廠商真的很厲害天才打敗所有軍火大廠第二個貨源是不是有問題會不會是來洗產地那這個是我當時覺得最奇怪的地方我想請教一下部長您的想法就只有一家來而且這家的資本額又不高"},{"start":225.493,"end":239.743,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們因為有一個合約的一個控制的作為也就是說他要先繳押標金然後還要繳旅業保證金那麼如果他不能夠旅業旅業保證金會被沒收然後停權嗎"},{"start":240.703,"end":269.832,"text":"所以他一般在這種所謂的火藥原物料我們看過去20年來都有一個特色就是說他要有把握那有把握他就要取得那個當地政府的輸出許可以及原廠的證明如果他沒有把握他就會面臨違約的後果謝謝部長 部長講得很清楚就是我們國防部的武器還是在違約的時候可以沒收他的履約保證金等等但是我還是擔心一件事情"},{"start":270.953,"end":285.802,"text":"他的資本額就1900萬光押標金1770萬就等於是掏空他的身家當然他還要得標之後他還要去繳3000萬的旅業保證金當然他是拿著國防部的契約去銀行搬錢"},{"start":286.903,"end":303.294,"text":"那這個在商界其實叫空手套白狼因為他這個三千萬不是他的錢而是他拿您的合約去跟銀行借來的錢我想委員講說不是他的錢是不是他的錢您這個我想這個沒有部長您先聽我說明一下"},{"start":303.954,"end":321.375,"text":"因為他的資本額只有1900萬光押標金就1770萬那履約保證金3000萬呢這個部分其實只能證明說他有辦法拿著合約到銀行去借錢出來我想委員應該也清楚我們的資本額登記跟他實際的財力我想"},{"start":321.815,"end":340.471,"text":"沒有什麼直接必然的管理嗎委員也是講一段出身應該很清楚那個部長我再提一個部分我講一個很簡單的其實我們在買東西的時候像譬如說您的事務所如果要買個5.9億的電腦設備你會找一家完全沒有賣過電腦的公司而且他的資本額遠低於"},{"start":341.392,"end":367.269,"text":"只有1900萬 這樣這麼小的公司如果要包您事務所的電腦設備您會敢找這樣的事務所 敢找這樣的店家他完全沒有經驗我還是跟委員報告 我們就清查94年來迄今採購火藥原物料的38個案子都是採購它招標 廠商的資格都一樣就是我禮拜一所講的最重要就是有公司設立證明 納稅證明跟國際保險那我要 接下來要講一下我們查了一下他們的資本額"},{"start":370.792,"end":373.275,"text":"這個資本額分別有從新台幣100萬元到1億2000萬元不等這些38個案子每一個的資本額"},{"start":383.395,"end":405.771,"text":"從最低有到達只有一百萬那也都 重點就在於他有沒有能夠履約嘛為什麼巨額採購的標準他有這些設計就必須他要有十分之一的相當標案十分之一的財力證明第五條第一項而且要有相當的實際的經驗過往交易的經驗要達到五分之二"},{"start":406.471,"end":421.549,"text":"為什麼有這些規定就是他希望把風險降到最低您在外面講的沒錯啊您講了一句話說我們要求他要有一定的資本額他就一定能履約嗎當然不可能但是我們是在降低不履約的風險我想今天"},{"start":422.53,"end":449.029,"text":"採購法或任何一個標準在那裡要求這些人要有相當的財力相當的過往經驗他不是說百分之百保證一定履約這世界上沒有這種事但是我們是降低不履約的風險嘛所以我們今天的意思一直是這樣我不是說國防部沒有辦法去沒收他的履約保證金我從來沒有這樣講而是在國防國家安全的重要性上面來說"},{"start":450.09,"end":478.57,"text":"幾千萬是小事情我一直在意的是我們能不能夠有一個很好的標準去嚴格了解幫我們做這些採購的這些公司他是一個很穩定然後有經驗有財力的公司能夠讓這個標案能夠順利的履約完成不讓我們國防產生空窗其實我的重點在這而不是在於說反正他交不出來我可以沒收他的保證金啦我跟布朗先說明這個點因為我一直"},{"start":479.45,"end":497.887,"text":"慶富案當時我有去研究那個案子其實它也是一個財力不好的公司去標下那個352億的案子然後後面又發生詐貿代案跟九家公司代了205億你要想這個案子就像我們拿來看我們今天這個案子"},{"start":498.827,"end":525.101,"text":"對他跟銀行拿著國防部的企業跟銀行借了錢出來給你當那個履約保證金他後來沒有辦法履約了國防部確實可以沒收這筆錢沒有錯但是我們國防部不是盈利失業這個錢對國防部沒有意義國防部需要的是我們炸藥能夠拿到再來他今天國防部把我錢沒收了我公司倒閉就好倒楣的是誰就是那家貸款的銀行嘛那貸款銀行"},{"start":526.321,"end":551.576,"text":"這個呆帳出來到最後倒楣就是帶銀行的股東啊或者是國內的存保嘛那其實到最後受害的還是國人啦所以這就是我覺得說我不會說認為國防部可以沒收履約保證金這一件事情就覺得啊我沒有責任啊我這樣做都是對的是這樣因為我還是很希望國防的每一筆採購都能夠如實交貨因為國防不能有真空嘛"},{"start":552.376,"end":578.429,"text":"所以我才跟那天跟部長說我們兩個對國家都有忠誠義務我們都非常的愛護這個國家我希望說都能夠順順利利的採購到該採購的東西我們也都希望順順利利跟委員報告我們清查了過去這38個案子32個案子已經驗收合格都結案付款其中有5萬里約中其中有一個案子就是因為沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明"},{"start":580.023,"end":588.941,"text":"所以他的關鍵就是他沒有辦法攔住輸出許可證明所以他沒辦法離約這就是關鍵啊您之前有待過金管會我們都知道"},{"start":590.31,"end":610.805,"text":"商場上KYC是一件很重要的事情銀行要貸款給你他絕對不是說你來跟我說你要借錢你還得起錢講這兩句話我就認同銀行會KYC的去對備放款者來貸款者我會去了解你的工作狀況你過往的那個信用狀況以及你的財力你有什麼不動產我都會去了解這些"},{"start":611.425,"end":640.368,"text":"所以我才敢再貸款給你那一樣我只是拜託國防部在我們在找人家來投來投標的時候我們對這些人我們要設足夠的門檻我們要排除掉一些有風險的公司否則會有一個狀況就有人跟我講他說哇那今天你的敵國都不用射飛彈來對你了他就在我們國內成立個100家小額的小10萬20萬的公司然後去申請國際貿易我就來狂標那個"},{"start":641.109,"end":661.968,"text":"那個國防部的採購案然後再去跟銀行借錢貸款來繳保證金反正呢到最後要交貨的時候我說不好意思我交不了我公司倒閉就好然後國防部拿不到拿不到這些武器那所以你的敵人根本不需要射一顆飛彈他就用這些就可以搞倒你的軍事採購所以這件事情是讓我們看到一個"},{"start":663.457,"end":679.276,"text":"東西就是國會的質詢不是找國防部麻煩而是協助國防部一起把漏洞補起來我的利益點只是這樣所以我一直不是在談押標金沒不沒收或餘額保證金沒不沒收因為你要KYC之後這個人如果有風險"},{"start":680.894,"end":699.573,"text":"小事情只是火藥沒有辦法交付萬一他拿了以後去交付給恐怖組織怎麼辦他如果拿到了拿到我們國防部的不是我是說萬一啦萬一他拿了我們國防部的合約去取得一些授權然後東西拿到之後他做了什麼事我們不知道我是說萬一啦"},{"start":699.993,"end":722.318,"text":"我們國防部沒有授權他沒有啦 我是說是他要取得當地政府的授權他拿到你的合約 對不對然後他去取得當地政府的授權之後他拿到了這批貨但是他最後他沒有交給國防部而是交給恐怖組織這個都是風險會不會發生我不知道但是希望是從來都不可能有這個機會所以我還是講的那個重點啦"},{"start":724.236,"end":729.986,"text":"這些來投標的公司是不是我們還是要特別了解他的狀況是怎麼樣我想"},{"start":731.348,"end":758.377,"text":"真正會侵害國家安全的絕對不是立法院的質詢而是我們貿然的讓這些菜鳥公司加入這種軍火的國家隊然後而且部長您也真的不宜說不用管資本額不用管背景不用管什麼然後只要拿到原廠輸出許可就好我覺得這句話也不負責任因為你永遠不知道公司他會玩哪一招然後再來"},{"start":759.477,"end":782.846,"text":"真正會傷害國家安全的是因為部長我們的採購如果讓敵人知道這麼的鬆散那這個會不會有什麼問題這個會不會讓你的敵人找到破洞然後來像我剛剛講的我就叫一些公司來標你國防部的案子反正到時候每一個都讓你沒有辦法履約我只是讓你扣走我的錢而已嘛但是你的國防就產生真空"},{"start":784.054,"end":805.517,"text":"孫子兵法第一句兵者詭盜也所以你在面對敵人他就是兵不厭詐他會跟你玩任何一招這就是我們希望要把這個洞補起來的原因所以部長跟我也報告 因秘密的就是他的一個商源的取得不易所以因秘密的其實是在於他取得商源是 我可以理解 我也認同國安採購"},{"start":806.398,"end":826.841,"text":"因秘密而且很多東西是不得已也辛苦這我都能理解但是我還是拜託國防部你最近爆發出來的那個什麼一個賣茶葉的十萬塊的那個公司去標到一千多萬的案子然後他說他連投標都沒有去然後就說得標了像這種東西不管背後他最後做的有沒有成國人會害怕"},{"start":827.822,"end":842.122,"text":"國人真的會擔心啦你們是廣徵裁員還是變成會廣深漏洞因為剛剛委員提到這應該沒有超過150萬的小額採購他是依照採購法49條用這個郵寄投標的方式這是依照採購法的相關規定"},{"start":843.323,"end":866.198,"text":"我跟部長再報告一次事情依照採購法這個絕對沒有問題但是國防的採購絕對不是說我合法就好國防採購應該是一個跟商務採購是完全不一樣的因為部長您一直把重心放在這兩天你一直把重心放在我可以沒收他的禮約保證金但是這個是民事訴訟的律師在做的因為你無法禮約產生問題公司有損害"},{"start":868.819,"end":888.345,"text":"補錢就好了嘛但是國家安全有漏洞我們補的是人命所以我才會這麼在乎這件事情我們希望說來投標的公司國防部能不能夠更嚴謹的去面對而不是說他只要符合採購法的相關規定那其他我就都不管了那小額採購他甚至是一些資訊設備那這些資訊設備有沒有問題"},{"start":891.326,"end":912.406,"text":"所以那個老闆直接說啊他說這個就是好勵志啊這是一個好勵志的故事我一個十萬塊的賣茶的然後我飆到這樣的案子齁那其實這個都會讓國人會擔心那您一直跟我講對他都完全符合採購法但是我相信國防採購我們不能等閒視之啦因為採購法有問題我們可以用錢補"},{"start":915.248,"end":938.64,"text":"資訊服務重要的當然是因為他在這個旅約的階段我們會經營區 會做人員查核然後他在施作的時候我們都會在場然後驗收我們也會查核他的資安嘛這個又是另外一個我們會有一個嚴謹的一個過程這樣最後幾句話 部長你一直說國防金的期考驗是不是國防部可以立刻針對這期採購案"},{"start":941.542,"end":954.223,"text":"的資格審查標準廠商誠信還有資金來源我們能夠請政風還有工程會跟審計單位下去下去來查這件事好不好給國人讓國人安心可以嗎"},{"start":955.246,"end":980.038,"text":"我想委員如果有任何的爭議都歡迎提出給任何的第三工程單位來進行調查我的意思是說可不可以麻煩你們就我剛講那三個點然後你們國防部裡面只有政風嘛那有工程會我們可以找工程會還有審計單位我們先把這個事情先理清楚啦我還是這樣國防非常非常重要我百分之百支持國防我也痛恨傷害我們國家安全的人但是齁這個採購不能夠讓"},{"start":983.481,"end":987.37,"text":"軍備有真空啦 我的想法只是這樣好不好 再麻煩部長好 謝謝委員指教"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}