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大家早安 請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員12人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1994.079,"end":2020.788,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第十六次全体委员会议议事录时间一百十四年五月五日星期一上午九十二分至十时十八分地点红楼二零二会议室出席委员黄建斌委员等十四人练习委员郑天才委员等二人练习官员内政部部长刘世芳其相关人员法务部参事廖嘉贤行政院消费者保护处文化部教育部环境部卫生福利部交通部等机关代表其相关人员主席牛昭记委员许婷"},{"start":2021.448,"end":2041.921,"text":"报告事项宣读上次会议事录决定确定讨论事项继续审查社会秩序维护法修正草案及十一案决议一第九条除第一项修正为下列各款之人之行为得减轻处罚一十四岁以上未满十八岁人二满七十岁人三精神耗弱或未满七岁及有听觉且语言障碍者外其余为于维持现行条文"},{"start":2042.581,"end":2063.435,"text":"二 第六十四条处序文修正为有下列各款行为之意者处三日以下拘留或新台币三万元以下罚还外于维持现行条文三 第七十二条修正通过条文修正如下第七十二条有下列各款行为之意者处新台币一万元以下罚还亦于公共场所或公众得出入之场所酗酒滋事漫麻喧闹不听禁止者"},{"start":2065.336,"end":2092.715,"text":"2.制造噪音或深夜喧哗,妨害公众安宁,不听禁止者。3.无正当理由,善吹警笛或善发其他警号者。4.第89条,除虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处心态弊,3万元以下罚还或申结外余,维持现行条文。5.审查通过这条文及相关法制用与授权主席及议事人员整理。6.并案审查完据拟据审查报告提报院会讨论,不需交由党团协商并推请牛召举委员许婷于院会讨论时做补充说明。7.通过"},{"start":2096.557,"end":2109.687,"text":"好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好沒有錯誤議事錄確定謝謝繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2113.496,"end":2139.859,"text":"好 謝謝現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分我們張志倫委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員以及黃婕委員官員的部分我們中央選舉委員會李靖勇主任委員好那我們就開始進行今天的這個業務報告我們請中央選舉委員會李主任委員靖勇進行業務報告"},{"start":2148.174,"end":2176.743,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家早安貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀列席報告業務概況並被質詢深感榮幸以下僅就本會在近期辦理各項工作分別報告如後第一是受理公職人員罷免案的提議從民國一百一十四年二月三號開始到二月十九日為止"},{"start":2177.463,"end":2200.441,"text":"本會受理立法委員以及地方公職人員罷免案一共有64案其中立法委員的罷免案是54案市長罷免案1案 直轄市縣市議員的罷免案一共有9案到114年5月4日為止 個案辦理的情形 詳如附表1請各位委員參閱"},{"start":2202.816,"end":2222.121,"text":"那說明如下一個就是立法委員罷免案54案裡面其中有因為領銜人或者是後被捕的領銜人不合規定而不予受理者有兩案因預期未補題提議人名冊不予受理者有兩案"},{"start":2223.781,"end":2247.835,"text":"選舉委員會查對連署人名冊中的有16案提議人之領銜人徵求連署中的有34案那這個數字應該要做一個更新就是到昨天下午下班為止選舉委員會查對連署人名冊的已經增加到20案"},{"start":2249.741,"end":2269.133,"text":"那第二點就是市長罷免案一案選舉委員會查對連署人名冊中直轄市縣市議員的罷免案有九案其中因領銜人不合規定不予受理者有一案連署人名冊查對結果代替本會委員會審議者有一案"},{"start":2270.134,"end":2280.497,"text":"提請 函請提議人的領銜人要補提連署人名冊者有1案提議人之領銜人徵求連署中者有6案"},{"start":2282.364,"end":2299.976,"text":"其次包括辦理全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員遞補作業到目前為止已經遞補本屆全國不分區以及僑居國外國民立法委員三人遞補的情形也請各位委員參閱副表二"},{"start":2302.679,"end":2313.432,"text":"其次辦理直轄市縣市議員的地補作業截至目前為止已經地補本屆直轄市縣市議員有14人地補情形相如不表3"},{"start":2315.612,"end":2340.573,"text":"再者報告受理全國性公民投票辦理的情形本會受理全國性公民投票案件一百一十三年七月到現在一共有六案其中有兩個案子經補正後仍不符公民投票法的規定所以就予以撥回其餘四案克正依公投法第十條規定審核提案之中"},{"start":2342.162,"end":2359.39,"text":"第五 全國性公民投票電子連署系統維護以及優化的作業全國性公民投票電子連署系統在113年的4月10日正式的上線本會依民眾回饋的意見持續辦理系統維護優化的作業"},{"start":2360.31,"end":2374.729,"text":"另外目前未有公民投票提案经审核符合公民投票法的规定所以到目前为止尚未有提案人之领衔人使用这个系统来征求联署"},{"start":2377.168,"end":2402.718,"text":"再提示報告公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備的情形為了推動公職人員罷免案電子連署系統上線作業本會積極辦理系統功能的測試壓力測試網站弱點掃描以及滲透測試等等的整備工作本會將是全國性公民投票電子連署系統"},{"start":2404.358,"end":2424.591,"text":"實際使用的情形評估公職人員罷免案電子連署系統上限的事宜再其次報告辦理選務幹部人員的講習為了充實各選舉委員會專任兼任人員地方政府選務選舉業務主管以及承辦人等選務幹部人員的選務法規以及實務相關專業的資能"},{"start":2431.855,"end":2443.544,"text":"本會與行政院人事行政總署公務人力發展學院南投縣區合作辦理選務幹部人員講習114年度選務幹部人員講習預定在5月到6月之間來辦理一共是三期每期調訓的人數大概是40人"},{"start":2453.891,"end":2482.59,"text":"其次包括執行政黨連坐的裁罰本會從一百零一年四月三日起到現在裁罰兩百二十一件裁罰的金額累計新台幣一億八千五百一十六萬五千元受連坐裁罰政黨受政黨推薦候選人及所犯罪名以及裁罰的金額都請各位參閱副表四跟五"},{"start":2484.264,"end":2504.356,"text":"在其次 辦理選舉徵送的案件 目前還細數中的案件一共有最高行政法院五件 台北高等行政法院六件各該訴訟案件進行的進度 想要如附表六跟七"},{"start":2505.316,"end":2527.11,"text":"第十,参与国际选举组织的活动,积极参与世界选举组织协会A-WEB以及亚洲选举官署协会AAEA的活动。114年4月25日,A-WEB的执行委员会议在菲律宾马尼拉举行,本会是由王委员运儒代表参加。"},{"start":2528.691,"end":2555.593,"text":"114年5月9日AAEA的執行委員會預定在菲律賓馬尼拉舉行本會將由陳副主任委員朝鮮代表參加最後報告結語為貫徹憲法保障民主法治以及人民參政權之本質本會統籌辦理公職人員選舉罷免以及公民投票的事務如何營造公平公正公開的參政環境"},{"start":2556.614,"end":2579.697,"text":"為本會努力追求的目標本會全體同仁將群策群力秉持超然獨立恪守中立的精神依法辦理選舉罷免以及公民投票等各項的業務以確保人民真正意志的展現增進社會大眾對於選舉機關的信任感以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2585.137,"end":2607.086,"text":"好 謝謝我們李競勇主委的報告報告委員會現在進行詢問委員諮詢前原例作為幾點宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出時間11點與本會委員詢問完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見可以嗎"},{"start":2612.881,"end":2627.111,"text":"沒有 通常都是本會委員尋答完處理啦所以時間大概差不多啦那個是截止提出11點啦 但尋答完畢就會處理所以要提應該會早一點啦 好不好好 謝謝那我們現在進行尋答我們請登記第一位 蘇喬惠委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委李建友主委有請"},{"start":2647.346,"end":2658.357,"text":"主委好主委本席現在其實也是被罷免的當事人之一但今天本席還是會認真好好做好我的工作而且我不會針對個案性來做發問我問的是通案性的問題讓中選會可以確保人民正當的行使我們的選舉罷免權"},{"start":2666.636,"end":2672.658,"text":"所以第一題我要問的是說我們現在在網路上一直看到房間都有流傳甚至是新聞也有爆出來這樣的狀況說各地選委會會用此來查核二階連署書的名冊格式"},{"start":2682.842,"end":2691.95,"text":"那我看到中選會是在Facebook上面你們自己已經發過兩次的聲明說不會有這樣的事情那是在4月29號的時候你們中選會發的可是呢我們接下來看到在花蓮也好然後呢在台中也好甚至是前天5月5號確實又再看到了這樣的狀況說甚至是這次不是用詞了是用正本去套糧這個連署書請問到底有"},{"start":2710.785,"end":2731.973,"text":"沒有這樣的事情那周選會的態度是什麼請解釋謝謝委員的關心有關於我們連署格式這個查對的部分引起社會各界的關心那坊間也有很多的這個說法其實這些說法都是錯誤的訊息"},{"start":2733.373,"end":2758.141,"text":"好這說法是錯誤的但事實上有沒有發生我們先講我們我們知道可能會發生這樣子的爭議中選會事先就已經做好非常完全的一個準備希望就是一套標準各地選委會都按照這個標準一體來適用我們做的努力有哪些呢包括我們有這個"},{"start":2760.521,"end":2768.766,"text":"受理的這個茶隊的須知這個是規定這個是所以我們問題蠻多可能要麻煩你稍微快一點有作業的這個辦法有這個作業的手冊等等把會籍的包括相關法律的規定以及我們的函式讓所有從事這個茶隊的同仁他們很容易的"},{"start":2786.556,"end":2804.915,"text":"SOP都有啦SOP都有那我就只單純問你到底有沒有用尺去量表格或者用正本去套量表格這樣的事情發生這個完全是誤傳或者是有意的散播錯假的訊息所以在花蓮在台中都沒有現場都沒有發生這樣的訊息"},{"start":2808.584,"end":2821.993,"text":"曾經就是宋建仁跟我們的選務人員對於規格大家看法不一可是我們在新聞上看到5月5號台中選委會是有發生這樣的狀況啊這個新聞是怎麼樣"},{"start":2825.436,"end":2848.736,"text":"总选会对地方的选委会状态有没有了解我们了解我们有进行了解实际的状况还必须要等到他们回报上来不过最后就是我们得到的讯息是台中的事情经过沟通之后大家也共同认定后来是不受理的件数是39件"},{"start":2851.539,"end":2862.767,"text":"這39件裡面因為規格的問題因為規格的問題而不予受理的只有各位是三件或者是四件我們還在確認之中像這樣子的一個爭議其實我們認為是正常的啦"},{"start":2867.631,"end":2869.632,"text":"爲什麼中選會在聯署書的格式上面要做變化的原因是因爲到底空白幾格中間有沒有置中有沒有空白要不要置中還是往左邊對齊首格"},{"start":2886.603,"end":2889.225,"text":"這些都是為了在當場的時候你才拿出來的這個格式是確保連署不會提前偷跑嘛講白話文就是這樣的狀況對不對所以這是為了你的行政便宜行政便利的方式來做這件事情好"},{"start":2903.394,"end":2906.697,"text":"可是如果一旦發生現場是用齒距量這種人民完全沒有辦法去預測會有的狀況差0.1 0.2公分這顯然是不合理的狀況嘛對不對天可垂見完全是錯假訊息所以第一這種沒有嘛所以也不會發生嘛然後第二要不要用正本去套糧"},{"start":2925.652,"end":2928.493,"text":"目前你收到的狀況到底是有還是沒有因為你剛剛的答案是說我們還在等回報這個問題我們需要台中來跟我們做詳細的解釋這5月5號那今天已經是幾號了已經過了幾小時了那麻煩如果主委能夠像花蓮這件事情一樣能夠這麼明確的回答"},{"start":2943.698,"end":2949.301,"text":"我相信對各地的選委會是有更統一的標準啊為什麼呢 因為我們會很需要知道的是如果在現場因為這樣的形式而把這份連署書在現場就剔除了那它到底算不算行政處分現場能不能有任何的救濟方式還是要達到合議才能夠剔除這就是主委回到您剛剛說的狀況了嘛 對不對"},{"start":2970.435,"end":2979.465,"text":"你剛剛表示你現在告訴我說你還不知道現場到底有沒有用格式套糧但你知道現在被剔除的都是合意的對不對你剛剛的說法是這樣嗎在交涉的過程當中我們不排除他們用任何的方式一起來做"},{"start":2985.211,"end":3006.923,"text":"沒有關係我現在告訴你的是可以我現在告訴主委是中選會應該要對地方的選委會有一套統一的標準而這個形式絕對不是要嚴苛挑剔到故意刁難連署書的送件對吧這完全合理嘛對不對我可以很簡單的再重複一遍我們關於這個問題的一個處理的辦法"},{"start":3009.744,"end":3031.609,"text":"第一點當然我們強調必須要按照規定的格式提出這規定的格式包括標題包括欄位的順序包括長寬等等沒有按照規定格式提出來的那我們就不予受理是這個目的是為什麼這個目的就是要防止偷跑啦為了選務對啦這個是第一個是在時間上面防止偷跑嘛對不對不是中選會要刻意的刁難主委這是第一點第二點"},{"start":3037.87,"end":3040.634,"text":"第二點 我們也一再強調 容許所謂的公差好 不管副營 不管營業 不管是套路我們容許容許公差而且"},{"start":3054.472,"end":3061.197,"text":"這個是用肉眼去辨識好用肉眼去辨識絕對不會拿詞去單邊講不會用詞也不會用這樣套糧最後一點最後一點要特別強調的不要再說了那說了就沒人要相信哪有什麼丫頭在那邊扭什麼人的嘴不知道怎麼絕對沒有這個事"},{"start":3070.404,"end":3097.357,"text":"我是覺得中選會對刑事的要求如果如此的嚴謹的話那對實質的要求就已經明顯知道一般俗稱的幽靈連署也就是死亡前就連署的比例是如此的高至今相同的比例是如此的高這種實質的狀況中選會因為依照現行的法律沒有辦法做任何的處置"},{"start":3098.297,"end":3120.814,"text":"那麼我們就不要用形式駭攻中選會應該要能夠明白的要求各地選委會不能夠有不同的標準這主委同意啦我們除了就是如何辨識偽造有一些規範性的規定之外其實我們在實務的做法上我們是要求各地選委會兩個人一桌"},{"start":3122.896,"end":3138.557,"text":"兩個人一桌 一個是我們專職的選務人員一個就是縣市政府借調的人員大家共同來認定好 主委那我現在再問你另外一個我本來要問三題但是現在我可能借一點時間問一下我的第二題就好了"},{"start":3139.378,"end":3142.3,"text":"第二題的部分的話我想知道的是中選會在這個查核連署書的狀況為什麼沒有辦法直接把這個數字還有剛剛查核的各種狀況直接公開在網路上公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":3154.946,"end":3178.402,"text":"你知道我們現在要看到聯署書實質查核 剛剛討論的是刑事查核你說全國要一致了 我們都同意了 花了幾分鐘的時間那我們現在經由中選會去做實質的審查之後的這個資料為什麼中選會不能夠主動 公開 立即的在第一時間公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":3179.022,"end":3185.504,"text":"我們查對審核的結果都是經過委員會的審定我當然知道你們都是嚴謹的審查 我說的是審查結果記錄要經過確認 所以要過一個月確認之後我們就會上網公開了"},{"start":3195.888,"end":3199.81,"text":"那所有的報章媒體新聞都知道啊我們都是連委員都是透過媒體才知道我們的數字連我這個被罷免人我們也是要透過媒體才知道問中選會中選會給你的說我們等會議記錄會議記錄上網以後也一共只有"},{"start":3216.519,"end":3235.68,"text":"合格率就是合格幾件不合格的幾件所以裡面細部的資料都沒有可是我們來看新聞的部分新聞的部分你看看重複提議有偽造情勢與門檻差異提議疫前死亡的都可以公佈成這樣我相信全國人民都在看你不要說這個他資料來源中選會"},{"start":3237.543,"end":3241.827,"text":"他可以寫總統府啊中選會 這很清楚的狀況嘛中選會還有另外一種可以知道的方式就是立委所知啦那我覺得這樣子的狀況我覺得這個狀況應該是"},{"start":3252.279,"end":3270.518,"text":"中選會其實應該要很負責任的在第一時間就應該要出來如果你們是要透過會議的話那這是現在國家最大的事情你們要加速會議的時間啊加速公告的時間啊我覺得這樣才合理啊委員因為問政的需要像我們所知"},{"start":3272.719,"end":3294.076,"text":"這個結果只要經過我們的委員會審查確定的結果那我們是應該要提供給委員這個時候雖然還沒有上網公開但是已經經過審定了我們會配合提供給委員那至於媒體他從什麼地方得到這些訊息跟中選會真的是沒有關係"},{"start":3294.636,"end":3316.737,"text":"主委我現在就是本於我的權責跟中選會垂詢並且建議並且要求就像你的第六你的書面你的口頭報告裡面的第六點你現在正在研議的是公職人員罷免案的電子聯署系統整備嘛那你現在在說我們未來這些案子"},{"start":3317.017,"end":3319.88,"text":"可不可以用電子系統整備這要很長的時間給你時間但我認為以現在狀況全國正在進行的種種辦免案當中當中選會的實質審查出來以後應該要加速如果可以從至少一個月變成是一個禮拜"},{"start":3335.175,"end":3345.404,"text":"這個大家全國也感謝你啊三天更好啊這本來就是應該要加速讓全國人民知道的狀況而且應該是公開上網這是我的第一個要求方法你們去想這是我的要求甚至我還要求我們應該要讓全國人民都可以有一套系統就像大學聯好放榜榜單一樣嘛榜單出來了我就可以去查詢我簽的聯署單到底那個領銜人有沒有幫我交出去"},{"start":3361.778,"end":3364.339,"text":"有還是沒有 這對我來講很重要啊有沒有教 我這麼認真寫了連署但我應該有權利可以知道我的連署書有沒有被交出去甚至是反過來講我也應該要有權利可以上網去查詢那個連署的名單裡面有沒有我啊"},{"start":3378.487,"end":3396.104,"text":"我有沒有被冒名啊這樣不是一清二楚根本不用檢調調查嗎這個系統不難啊大學聯考各種學校招生聯考都可以做到我覺得這個反而是比你在研議電子連署更應該提早做到的啦我相信這個不難"},{"start":3397.845,"end":3412.71,"text":"費用也不高而且應該即刻就可以做主委你的意見呢那這技術上是沒有困難沒有困難啊我剛剛跟委員報告過我查詢我自己而已啊我有沒有我的聯署書有沒有被交上去我有沒有被冒名就這麼簡單我剛剛跟委員報告過的就是說我們的這個會議紀錄確認的程序是到下一次的委員會我們委員會一個月才開一次那就應該要提早照看"},{"start":3423.374,"end":3447.689,"text":"怎麼樣是不是可以縮短尤其是這種特殊民眾關切的這個事情就是國家大事了不可以研究縮短這個我們再來努力看看主委我要求啦我要求我具體要求具名要求我認為在這一段時間這是國家的非常時刻過去從來沒有過的我認為中選會的會議要加速召開不可以一個月只開一次啦要優先處理啦好謝謝謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3451.291,"end":3467.669,"text":"好 謝謝蘇喬惠委員 下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 各位媒體朋友大家早有請李靖勇主委李靖勇主委有請"},{"start":3474.486,"end":3492.342,"text":"好主委好再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭"},{"start":3493.863,"end":3519.221,"text":"那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題"},{"start":3521.189,"end":3547.831,"text":"以及這個不管是中共的軍演等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意"},{"start":3548.812,"end":3557.681,"text":"那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府"},{"start":3558.786,"end":3579.18,"text":"在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講了這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為"},{"start":3581.763,"end":3596.185,"text":"罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六"},{"start":3596.866,"end":3619.542,"text":"那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委"},{"start":3620.663,"end":3648.446,"text":"今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答"},{"start":3648.646,"end":3665.444,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日8月23日這是確定的"},{"start":3668.727,"end":3697.167,"text":"那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差"},{"start":3698.087,"end":3715.845,"text":"所以而且而且他的这个投票的时间法律有明文规定就是必须要在成立20到60天之内要办理投票所以罢免案的时间比较复杂他到底什么时候具备"},{"start":3716.425,"end":3740.51,"text":"的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來就討論決定"},{"start":3743.491,"end":3758.539,"text":"主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省人便納稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法"},{"start":3759.315,"end":3787.368,"text":"一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場"},{"start":3788.8,"end":3816.376,"text":"好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出而且投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個"},{"start":3818.637,"end":3847.538,"text":"這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果這整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡"},{"start":3848.886,"end":3875.681,"text":"我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為它不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模"},{"start":3877.722,"end":3903.369,"text":"它的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話它大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話它人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億吧大概是一千五百萬左右"},{"start":3904.469,"end":3905.31,"text":"那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應"},{"start":3925.347,"end":3941.415,"text":"因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支援一定要申請行政院來動之第二預備金那我要跟主委報告行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的"},{"start":3941.715,"end":3954.294,"text":"所以不然等席是非常不願意看到不管是國民黨、民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻"},{"start":3956.113,"end":3971.373,"text":"25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個供奴的耗損主委請回答"},{"start":3972.61,"end":3989.646,"text":"現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重"},{"start":3990.126,"end":4005.44,"text":"好 那一段大家就可以繼續討論了那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連署中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連署的時候那時候我就有請教主委"},{"start":4006.081,"end":4031.726,"text":"一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號 2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供"},{"start":4033.007,"end":4042.255,"text":"這個被罷免人一個很明確的一個解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署"},{"start":4047.642,"end":4062.797,"text":"所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免"},{"start":4064.699,"end":4079.54,"text":"所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們"},{"start":4081.583,"end":4097.503,"text":"覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法"},{"start":4098.524,"end":4116.519,"text":"提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間"},{"start":4117.552,"end":4133.861,"text":"第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊"},{"start":4134.241,"end":4154.849,"text":"這個是法無明文規定所以就程序就不明確嘛我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進入所以我跟你們講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確的選舉罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等嘛所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒辦法修身養息"},{"start":4156.61,"end":4164.431,"text":"就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好 那請除了繼續回應 謝謝好 那有關於連署的部分"},{"start":4167.054,"end":4190.248,"text":"法也是沒有明文規定法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些程序弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了"},{"start":4190.908,"end":4208.283,"text":"你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署"},{"start":4209.363,"end":4238.042,"text":"40天的審查期這個法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊"},{"start":4238.722,"end":4257.847,"text":"還是法無名文規定對 我們管不著所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做一些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾"},{"start":4258.427,"end":4284.252,"text":"他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突人民的衝突我認為是非常的"},{"start":4285.322,"end":4303.552,"text":"不正確的所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大"},{"start":4304.332,"end":4321.014,"text":"大惡霸變成什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你"},{"start":4323.101,"end":4347.152,"text":"那也是很清楚的不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息所以我希望主委不管是主委還是賴清德政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的所以希望說主委不管是門檻的部分大家都還有討論的空間"},{"start":4348.373,"end":4362.801,"text":"我們現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個"},{"start":4364.122,"end":4379.886,"text":"也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來投反對票更重要的是大家要守法大家一定要守法珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝好 謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":4399.039,"end":4401.803,"text":"主席好有請主委主委有請"},{"start":4409.485,"end":4435.676,"text":"主委好 台灣討論不在籍投票的制度已經超過20年了身為民主自豪的國家我們卻遲遲為依法在法治的層面建立完善的制度這無疑是民主發展的一大缺口不在籍投票的制度是保障人民投票權"},{"start":4437.417,"end":4462.429,"text":"擴大政治的參與還有深化民主重要的工具國際上包含美國、日本、韓國等許多國家的民主國家早已經實施多年台灣完全可以參考還有實踐而我們行政院目前也提出全國性公投公民投票不在籍投票的法案、草案投票法的草案"},{"start":4466.191,"end":4469.013,"text":"適用範圍限於說公民投票甚至排除與總統副總統還有立法委員選舉同日執行的公投請問我們主委你有這樣的理由還有設計的邏輯是什麼為何不能一併同日選舉呢"},{"start":4491.215,"end":4518.896,"text":"跟委員報告因為貴黨團已經提出這樣一個公投案立法院即將進行也許他如果說通過院會的話他會交到中選會來辦理公民投票那中選會既然是公民投票的主辦機關在這個時間點上就這個特定的案件我實在是不宜來表示我個人的意見"},{"start":4519.957,"end":4521.898,"text":"這點請委員能夠諒解這個是針對市啊為什麼有沒有認同有沒有認同這樣子的一個公投會牽涉到我們中選會審查各方的意見所以我在這邊如果說我的意見是怎麼樣那對其他的委員是不尊重的"},{"start":4543.821,"end":4550.464,"text":"這個是你的工作啦 不是尊重的問題問你的工作 你覺得有沒有認同委員的指教因為呢 對 在今年四月份我們卓院長也在答詢中也表示啦可對市公投開始試行因為對人的選舉比較複雜比較高但是這番話其實就反映什麼行政院長並不否定"},{"start":4571.013,"end":4574.14,"text":"不在籍投票的可能性既然是對市公投可以規劃請問全國性選舉就是直接"},{"start":4581.377,"end":4603.116,"text":"就就選舉就是完全做不到嗎我們認為不在即投票是找這不是技術的問題而不是也不是制度不行而是政府與中選會根本沒有積極要做這件事情啊所以我們台灣民眾黨才提出轉移投票的制度"},{"start":4603.917,"end":4617.894,"text":"也多次向我們中選會溝通也建議當時中選會說改口說什麼問題在於民眾信任度不足現在你又說不是你不方便講所以說中選會是我曾經對這一項的制度你做過"},{"start":4624.341,"end":4626.064,"text":"民眾的信任度調查嗎還是你自己說的所以是否具體的資料可以提供嗎還是說根本就是我們行政帶多的藉口而已呢"},{"start":4643.311,"end":4658.207,"text":"因為跟我們一貫的立場是一致的就是說對市的不在籍投票也就是公民投票的不在籍投票尤其是從移轉投票開始這個一向是中選會跟這個"},{"start":4660.709,"end":4674.22,"text":"內政部一項的這個意見我們甚至於具體的行動就是全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的草案已經二度送到立法院來所以你是支持我們啊前委員支持我們的不在籍投票的法案委員支持我們的這個因為他已經在立法院了嘛就是"},{"start":4683.707,"end":4690.151,"text":"在立法院你也是要表態支持還是不支持或者你調查有沒有調查的具體的資料委員所說的不在籍投票的公民投票我現在不能講支持不支持因為我要審議啊"},{"start":4698.66,"end":4703.104,"text":"對啊你審議你支持就會就是這個就是大家就是我們現在根據我們調查嘛大家歡喜嘛因為在20歲到29歲的我們全國有七成支持移轉投票還有年輕人支持最高了所以呢我們在地工作啊或者是離鄉的打拚的年輕人"},{"start":4725.624,"end":4740.312,"text":"他們強烈的就是說投票的需求但是因為阿姨這些工作讀書啊這些所以呢我們也很清楚認知說制度是便利性結果我們政府就是"},{"start":4741.312,"end":4757.784,"text":"就是一直在理由一堆就是不行動所以最照顧年輕人的賴總統的政見就形成強烈的落差所以我們再來再問你的就是關於你的資料裡面有些報告"},{"start":4758.544,"end":4787.083,"text":"目前在處理收行人請求設置投票所的行政輸送請問目前對於在監所的設計符合投票的資格收行人各監所的做法又為何中選會是否掌握這個人數還有在2023年10月台北高等行政法院的裁定"},{"start":4790.108,"end":4813.838,"text":"選務機構應該在台北監獄所設置投票所還有請問我們中小會你採取哪一些的措施所以未來在不採取投票的制度的推行的時候在受益人的時候他們投票的保障你有考慮嗎是說你有研議關於這個法律的行政配套嗎有嗎"},{"start":4819.622,"end":4837.032,"text":"關於授權人的投票權的保障這個在理論上我們也是支持的但是在選舉的實務以及監所的戒護實際的狀況底下的確有一些困難"},{"start":4838.072,"end":4841.154,"text":"就是因為有困難所以從去年從去年開始的個案的訴訟到目前為止司法機關都支持我們的立場"},{"start":4857.954,"end":4861.276,"text":"我們再重申我們再次移轉投票是最直接的還有說我們有最具名義的基本就是不在一起投票的方式同是選舉當天"},{"start":4874.224,"end":4877.626,"text":"人在台灣啦 在台灣 所以本人親自投票就能讓就是外地的人 就學的人民眾就是不用單車勞頓所以這偏鄉的人也可以在這樣子的一個具有意義所以我們的民眾黨主張 一貫的主張方向就呼應我們中選會 不要再用行政的困難的藉口"},{"start":4898.536,"end":4905.321,"text":"也不要做完成就是我們不再舉公投的制度所以我們是應該就提出說我們盡快提出就是涵蓋總統副總統立委啊這個選舉完整的版本這個才是"},{"start":4915.829,"end":4935.964,"text":"對選民還有對我們民主的基本的交代這個才是我們想要的我也對不起如果是這麼強烈的主張的話直接提案可能會比公民投票要快一點我們已經都提了問你有沒有同意有沒有說但是你們都沒有立法權是在立法院裡面"},{"start":4940.515,"end":4955.264,"text":"立法權在立法院裡面我們提案也是大家同意三方溝通如果不用溝通的話就直接提了嘛叫你們來報告幹嘛呢如果要講效率的話其實是直接提案立法會比公民投票要快"},{"start":4956.084,"end":4958.785,"text":"我們要的是我們民意剛才跟你講的強調我們是要我們立法院我們是我們要行政公立你們有沒有依法行政對不對我們是民意的聲音要反應是我們要跟政府共同也是要民意共同不是說我們要提法案"},{"start":4980.033,"end":4988.099,"text":"要提法案也是民意需要不是我們自己說的算也不是你說的算你不是說你不是你說的算但是你有權利你有要做的義務要回答不是一直在說別人還是怎麼樣這是你的義務啊再來再問了這個算你就行政中立跟你問你都是說不出一個"},{"start":5004.434,"end":5007.337,"text":"一個真正的去做但是現在是我們民間的我們人民作為一個人民做主的志工團他們這個組織目前有向中選會提出法律覆轍的公投有四個案其中一個公投案是在今年2月7號就提出了"},{"start":5029.273,"end":5040.349,"text":"依據公投法第十條第三項主管機關需要在六十日內審核完畢但是認定是否有這樣子的規定還有"},{"start":5042.799,"end":5046.282,"text":"通知補正但是這個組織認為他在中選會提出由中選會提出的4月23日聽證距離2月7號的提案日已經超過76日請問主委這樣子是否"},{"start":5063.658,"end":5082.034,"text":"就違背公投案第十條第三項的六十天內的規定中選會是否認為公開聽證不屬於六十天審核的程序的一部分如果是 你的意志如何是你專科的嗎 這樣回答可以嘛 對不對"},{"start":5083.704,"end":5104.019,"text":"我請我們同仁回答別的消息阿不是你專科阿你當主委不是你專科阿都問別人阿委員有關這個提案60天審核如果有聽證的話是不包括在內的那我們這幾個案子都是在60天內提委員會來這個審核那是因為委員會議有決議說要繼續辦理聽證"},{"start":5106.881,"end":5110.243,"text":"所以說六十天內都是這個規定嘛但是現在是召開聽證會就是屬於這個程序嗎你預計如何呢如果是這樣子的話通知完了法案先是就是影響人民公投案的權利嘛"},{"start":5125.812,"end":5153.561,"text":"但是是否影響這樣子的進行還有時程但是公投審查中中選會對某一些提案的理由書行政的嚴格就是議員的審查但是要補正或者返回這樣子的話我們主委這邊我們的中選會這邊審查提案時不同人提案提出的公投所以說是政治立場嗎有涉及政治立場還是比方說我們公投立場的執政黨"},{"start":5155.302,"end":5176.095,"text":"立場相同的話你就可以採取意氣審查的態度如何消除不同提案人審查的標準有這樣子的不信任感因為你是規定60天但是你在70天76天內你才有這樣子的召開聽證所以說的規定如何"},{"start":5179.107,"end":5184.169,"text":"那你預計什麼 你要預計什麼 你這麼做嘛你叫別人預計60天內 你自己沒有預計60天內那叫公民團體他們如何法律規定的審核60天不包含經證程序的進行"},{"start":5198.388,"end":5210.833,"text":"所以說就不包含所以呢如果這樣子的話他們在補正的時間60天內就是不包含了所以他們就是在60天外他們就是管理公證後再來補正是嗎就是提案跟"},{"start":5214.254,"end":5232.083,"text":"補正以後的審核啊都是法律規定都是60天聽證程序的進行是不包含在這60天內不包含但是你的補正的時候你補正不再包含這樣子的話你就超過時間來去辦公對不對你開這個聽證會你超過時間了你補正的是在60天內那你自己開的又在超過這個60天內你叫人家要補嗎"},{"start":5242.555,"end":5247.956,"text":"對吧這樣子就是因為這樣子他們才會再再來跟申訴嗎如果不是這樣子的話他們不會去申訴不會去說依據法律但是你們的聽證會就是在法律的60天內所以他們才會這個要說明讓這些民團他們才覺得說我們是怎麼去規定的你依據哪裡的這樣子大家"},{"start":5269.04,"end":5287.289,"text":"才會所以我希望這個部分你提出一個真正的說明所以我們希望就是我們的選舉的公投制度要有公信力來自中選會是否依法行政保障人民直接民權的行使如果主管機構是連就是"},{"start":5291.291,"end":5298.873,"text":"機構的連法都不能遵守 人民如何信任我們是中立的所以專業的選舉機構 台灣的民主如何進步所以目前我們中選會應該會說不是只有針對罷免 除了罷免我們中選會還有其他的業務不管剛剛我提出的移轉投票還是收行人的投票的權利又是公投案的審查日期多希望我們主委有"},{"start":5321.017,"end":5325.96,"text":"書面的你現在因為時間的關係主席不好意思但是我們希望我們主委這邊要有改善還有說盡快就是符合很多工作我們沒有違反法律規定的時程所以我希望你就是要讓這些民團他們申請的結德說你超過這個時間但是他的補間時間在60天我拜託委員能夠轉拔"},{"start":5347.631,"end":5354.776,"text":"不是在六十天內我拜託委員能夠轉達這個民團好好珍惜這個聽證的機會因為那是對他們有幫助當然啊當然是能珍惜但是我們希望說你在規定內這樣他們補件如果他們你直接放寬這樣子他們就不是在六十天內補證了好 那個請中選會會後補充好不好好 謝謝麥議員現在我們請張宏督召回諮詢"},{"start":5382.614,"end":5384.162,"text":"我請主委李主委有請"},{"start":5393.483,"end":5413.849,"text":"主委那個選委會當然是一個中立的機關選委會也是辦選政的重要的機關對不對是但選委會雖然有主委但主委可以決定所有的事情嗎"},{"start":5414.822,"end":5442.439,"text":"我們是一個委員制的機關對嘛你們是要開委員會去做所有的事情的決議吧對不對那這些委員其實是社會賢達然後各黨各派什麼的其實都有人在裡面吧學有專精而且有社會公信力對嘛所以很多的事情不是主委說的算吧"},{"start":5443.086,"end":5470.549,"text":"那當然所以是要尊重整個委員會的一個制度所以不是什麼事情主委就可以講因為這個裡面在開會這個每個人的意見社會賢達學友專精的人每個人都可以提出意見然後做出最後的決定所以有時候要主委說什麼跟你跟內政部長跟什麼是不一樣的是不是"},{"start":5472.247,"end":5487.303,"text":"立場是不一樣吧是沒錯啦好所以啊很多的事情啊並不是在這邊說主委說怎樣因為最主要還是委員會的制度不過齁我先有幾個問題我今天看了你們這個業務報告"},{"start":5490.751,"end":5498.654,"text":"你們還有參與國際選舉組織活動我知道我們台灣的選委會其實在國際選舉組織裡面我們算是創始會員之一吧是我們兩個組織都是創始會員預算被刪成這樣了你們還能去嗎你還有錢去嗎"},{"start":5513.12,"end":5525.423,"text":"比較拮据一點但是我們是排除萬難因為因為我們的會籍還是會被挑戰所以我們是用積極參與的這個態度來確保跟其他個會員國之間的關係來確保維護我們的會員的權利"},{"start":5536.005,"end":5548.556,"text":"對啊對啊我知道啊我們是創始會員國之一啊你如果長一天到晚都不去到時候被處級怎麼辦所以我才會問說那你們的預算被刪成這樣那你們現在可以去嗎"},{"start":5549.492,"end":5577.551,"text":"比較拮据一點,但是今年我們還是排除萬難,還是兩批兩批都有參加還好今年在菲律賓啦,比較勝那在澳洲就不知道了比較困難在歐洲就無法參加了嘛是,今年兩個會都在菲律賓對,我知道那還有你們有一個辦理選務幹部人員講習是我想先請問一下"},{"start":5580.131,"end":5588.969,"text":"所有的各縣市的民政局長或民政處長是不是都是選委會的總幹事啊"},{"start":5591.282,"end":5616.912,"text":"總幹事照規定就是民政局處的首長或者是副首長副主管幾乎這個法律規定民政局長大部分都是兼選委會總幹事真正辦理選舉的是民政局長這個總幹事要去辦理選舉對不對主任委員縣市首長掛主任委員或是他要讓誰掛其實"},{"start":5619.073,"end":5641.764,"text":"他也沒有直接的參與他當然要直接參與也是可以但地方也是委員制嘛對不對不過我看你們你們寫這樣但我看報紙有不只民縣市啦有的縣市他的局長又兼總幹事又什麼的那結果"},{"start":5644.434,"end":5652.922,"text":"他有一些行政不...我們先不講法律問題啦有一些行政不中立的情況出現诶主委你有沒有注意到"},{"start":5654.299,"end":5675.551,"text":"我們基本上都予以尊重跟信任因為選務的辦理需要地方政府大力的協助才能夠成功所以我們對於兼任主任委員的山長對於兼任總幹事的民政首長我們都是予以充分的尊重"},{"start":5676.371,"end":5700.041,"text":"那當然啦我們也知道我們也知道因為他畢竟專業並不是在選務方面所以有關於選務法令有關於選舉實務的運作也許他們並不是非常的熟悉所以所以我們專職在地方專職的副總幹事他就必須要負起這個責任隨時提供正確的資訊"},{"start":5701.362,"end":5708.664,"text":"给主任委员给总干事让他们能够在合法的情况之下来带动我们的选务"},{"start":5709.924,"end":5735.502,"text":"那我我就講比較白一點那如果民政局長他用復一證復證系統然後去查資料這樣有沒有違反然後結果又是選委會去審查這些資料這樣子對行政上來講你認為選委會的中立會不會被質疑"},{"start":5736.827,"end":5762.539,"text":"地方選委會它依法是必須受中央選舉委員會的指揮跟監督所以雖然大部分的選務是在地方來辦理但是中選會不是在那邊演其實我們都盯著都聯絡各地的選委會我們都有專屬的窗口每天了解當地選務進行的狀況"},{"start":5765.211,"end":5772.785,"text":"如果有發現這個可能有一些違反法令的狀況疑慮的話我們都會加強溝通"},{"start":5776.656,"end":5796.428,"text":"哇 這個不是發現啊媒體都登了啊對不對 媒體都登了那麼大啦也不是發現啊 對不對為什麼那一部分 那一部分現在媒體登的看到的那一部分現在都還沒有還沒有涉入到我們的選務機關我們的選舉的業務裡面都還沒有欸 主委 這樣子講我就有點不認同"},{"start":5805.012,"end":5830.587,"text":"從一開始就是造假然後呢造假的人本身又是民政處長然後他又兼選委會總幹事就是違法的部分對啊那違法的部分這個都已經很明確了他到時候他又是在審查的一個機關如果是指特定的縣市的話他已經不是我們的總幹事了"},{"start":5831.611,"end":5843.251,"text":"我知道現在已經不是了啦不是現在在前一個案子就已經不是對他現在已經不是但我為什麼要特別提出這一個其他個縣市你保證都沒有嗎"},{"start":5844.983,"end":5862.057,"text":"我信任啦 我也相信所有的公務人員不管他兼任 他專職都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則我覺得啦 主委 我一開始就跟您說中選會是選政機關 不是選務機關"},{"start":5868.422,"end":5894.771,"text":"但選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行但你也是可以直接監督的你不能讓一些事情一直發生這樣子會造成什麼後果你以後辦選舉人家會質疑所有的公信力一件一件這樣下來如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為處理你會造人民會對未來你的選舉"},{"start":5896.429,"end":5917.855,"text":"會不會有充分信任這一點一定要跟委員報告現在所有牽涉到違法的部分事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的所抓出來的所以我們有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任主席再給我說我不是說你沒有盡到責任"},{"start":5922.236,"end":5932.895,"text":"所以我們還是會把關啦你除了把關之外我剛特別想到的你們辦理選務什麼講座這些你除了三聲五令之外其實你對他也沒有直接的"},{"start":5934.109,"end":5961.093,"text":"一個指揮的權限或什麼但該有的懲處該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊中選會不會無為啦我們有我們的作為我知道所以主委我只是提醒你這樣你不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾的不信任啦我覺得是會這樣因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊從以前的坐票"},{"start":5962.574,"end":5988.815,"text":"灌票這選舉最擔心的就是舞弊那這次的很多的事情如果你要給他從法律上來看造假什麼的那就是舞弊了所以我覺得很多的事情要讓大家知道說對或不對我只是提醒你不要到後來大家對選委會各地的選舉產生不信任這我是"},{"start":5989.861,"end":6005.51,"text":"比較擔心的是未來台灣幾十年的這個選舉的運作我擔心的點是這裡啦謝謝委員也是我們這個選務的前輩你的提點謝謝好謝謝張宏祿召委下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢主席我們現在要主委李主委有請"},{"start":6024.437,"end":6033.525,"text":"委員你好主委 各位知道辛苦主委在這裡本身要跟你談到的就是說因為在最近我們的選拔發生的時候應該是前一陣子大家要拿要簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽"},{"start":6049.54,"end":6050.581,"text":"另外一段說,我們要以霸之霸,要來簽,做一路補課的,來簽的當中,我相信我們永超的,還有很多過往的人"},{"start":6067.35,"end":6069.251,"text":"在過往的人當中,你看我們基隆的面前處長看完後,他剛才說,那已經不是你們的人了但是不是你們的人,也是正經是你們地方選舉委員會的人了"},{"start":6090.064,"end":6102.273,"text":"在這個規定當中 我覺得非常不該 也非常對北省 對政府 最好一個信任就沒有像今天我們的董事"},{"start":6107.947,"end":6111.168,"text":"翁小玲立委,大立委喔,說如果選辦法有違法的、有不法的,應該是要所有的出力量"},{"start":6126.727,"end":6132.93,"text":"他的部分要來處理,這樣是不對的主委,如果像這樣說,如果科技做表的人繼續做表跟檢考員看到也不能夠糾正,當分放出來的時候,跟他說他做表"},{"start":6149.312,"end":6150.514,"text":"又來偷竊錢,再偷竊錢之後放柴辣去竊,竊到貴賃給你,再用監視器說這個柴辣在我們家做柴辣"},{"start":6163.78,"end":6173.145,"text":"我們來想想,如果萬一有一天台灣可以逃不掉我們知道它已經要逃不掉台灣了我們還不可以說要等待台灣逃不掉才可以說如果它的論述、它的公法是這樣的跟這中華民國這樣又有法律我們的公務人員"},{"start":6195.297,"end":6206.859,"text":"在兩百四十一條的 依然沒有不對我們本來就要來計劃 要來處理啦北省如果有這不對的規範我們也需要來講咧什麼羨慕我們第一階段 第一階段處理了剛剛來來糾正主委"},{"start":6223.618,"end":6228.342,"text":"本席說到這氣氛,沒有一個大大的立委,對於看到他多厲害多厲害說這個委,實在是委上的不應該啦!大派的孩子大小,主委,在本席剛才所說的,你們委內"},{"start":6248.845,"end":6267.339,"text":"謝謝委員的指教中山會的策略是這樣我們根據刑事訴訟法241條的規定只要我們在執行職務的時候發現有犯罪的嫌疑的話那我們在職務上就有告發的義務那這個告發的義務我的意思就是說你當時發現到你就當時去告發"},{"start":6282.081,"end":6300.637,"text":"即時的告發其實這個也是確保犯罪的追溯能夠有效的進行很重要的點那我們在告發之後司法機關他們辦案的節奏有他們一定的規定這個我們予以尊重"},{"start":6302.082,"end":6310.964,"text":"因為主委本省會跟你談到這個就是說因為選辦法是你們單位所去管理的白色的第一階段第二階段都是你們管理的第三階段竟然是你們管理的所以在這個規定當中我覺得不管的不管帶一棟帶一個單位都是要"},{"start":6332.301,"end":6337.625,"text":"下去做的啦 要舉報的啦因為我覺得 最惡劣的就是說你抄名也好 拿人的名也好你現在在那裡說這個有貴心或不貴心說實在 各自的東西 政府的東西可以這樣處理嗎"},{"start":6357.827,"end":6361.848,"text":"這基隆說實在一定無法無聽啦實在亂來啦所以在這裡我覺得對任何一個百姓看到基隆發生這個事情大家都非常憤怒不關帶一棟的哪有做一個主觀做到去對這個問題啦"},{"start":6388.26,"end":6395.324,"text":"主委,在這裏面,我認為這是非常悲傷,覺得對政府一種心內的抱怨因為我認為,大家都說各自各自,大家說各自的保護保護和政府機關,但我們的各自是這樣吞吐的"},{"start":6413.769,"end":6416.69,"text":"所以本市在這裡也要跟你說,我們的罷免的日期也有五月,也有六月二十的在這個過程當中,我們是不是可以因為我們這要跟委員會開會嘛,當時要投票的"},{"start":6438.919,"end":6440.26,"text":"如果有幾個做一次是不是可以做到投票因為"},{"start":6447.56,"end":6456.203,"text":"主委,我們想要給你的意見就是,如果你們再開會的時候是不是這個人那樣說,還有這麼多人,不然不管是帶一張牌,我們為了要讓這個宣布領完,做一件比較方便、比較省,要不然為了國家的健全,改開的時候的費用我們也要開啦"},{"start":6477.47,"end":6480.954,"text":"尤其今年可能有公道的問題也已經提出了在本縣所了解可能是在八月二三啦在八月二三當中我們是不是可以跟"},{"start":6495.51,"end":6500.134,"text":"這會罷免選舉這會提拔嗎因為這我的意見給你因為你也沒辦法我回答說可以不行啦"},{"start":6507.415,"end":6511.678,"text":"但是拜託主委如果開會前 跟委員會 大家的意見都可以做參考主委我要來請教一下 我們的基隆發生這個事情 到不成為止你們如果請求全台灣的專務領域的地方主委 開會嗎來 主委你回答"},{"start":6539.565,"end":6545.031,"text":"我們例行的會議每個月都有主管會報另外專案會議 現在有專案專案跟例行的都會邀請我們各地的專職的副總幹事參加線上的會議"},{"start":6558.763,"end":6570.711,"text":"每一次每一次的這個會議我們都是針對各地在選務方面可能產生的問題他們在執行的時候有發現什麼樣的疑問的問題大家提出來做參考尤其這一點非常重要差不多每次都會說到要堅持我們的選務中立這一點都會特別重點對啦 我們要中立啦因為如果你們沒有中立就像基隆這樣"},{"start":6588.943,"end":6599.45,"text":"這個國家就海洋洋了啦因為主委我這次的時間夠了我後面還有兩件要這次的問題我會用書面幫你探討,麻煩你開給我好,謝謝好,謝謝王美惠委員的諮詢下一位請黃婕委員諮詢"},{"start":6616.857,"end":6618.681,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委李主委有請"},{"start":6633.317,"end":6661.599,"text":"主委先跟您请教一个问题现在这个罢免的领衔人目前我们的法规是规定如果他在领衔的过程当中不想要继续当领衔人了他想跳船了只有两个方式一个是他遇到死亡或者是说由第一阶段提案人的超过一半必须要签同意书才可以撤换对吗是的那目前为止如果领衔人签户籍是不是仍有领衔资格"},{"start":6662.941,"end":6688.818,"text":"戶籍簽出不影響到他的這個資格好也就是說他即便簽了戶籍他還是有領銜人的資格但是他不能投三接的投票對嗎是的好那唯一的方式如果不是在這兩個條件以下也就是說沒有經歷這個死亡或者是一半的人的同意書那如果這個領銜人真的不想要繼續罷免唯一的方式就是不要親自送件到"},{"start":6689.598,"end":6704.479,"text":"選委會打這個二接的罷免送過去對嗎送件只有合法的領銜人我們才受理那意思是說如果領銜人現在不想要送件那有他可以有其他人帶送嗎"},{"start":6706.06,"end":6721.611,"text":"授權是可以的所以如果他要授權他還是必須要有一個授權書或者是如何證明領銜人授權給其他人幫他帶送這個二階的連署書到選委會那這個都必須要能夠證明"},{"start":6722.972,"end":6743.174,"text":"如何包括包括二分之一的同意這同意是不是原來的這個沒有我的意思是說現在沒有換領銜人喔但是領銜人就是有其他的人他授權其他人幫他親送件因為本來的規定是說領銜人一定要親自送件嘛"},{"start":6744.113,"end":6765.582,"text":"已經要親自送件把這個 對他可以委任嘛對那如果這個委任就是一定要有一個明確的委任書是這個領銜人親自委任其他人來幫他送這個聯署書對嗎是的是的好那這個因為這個規定最近有一些相關的事件所以在這邊也讓所有的團體知道說接下來的規定應該就是照這樣走"},{"start":6766.974,"end":6774.077,"text":"OK 好那再來第二個跟您請教這個罷免連署書如何保障它的保管這個連署書的安全的問題因為其實上禮拜花蓮的這個微光團隊送件的時候發現說在選委會裡面不僅沒有人員駐守然後也沒有任何的監視器也就是放在選委會裡面的這些連署書如何有安全的保障不得而知這個強度是非常非常弱的"},{"start":6796.721,"end":6802.403,"text":"那甚至是他們反映了之後當地的警方才說那我們會加強尋守來確保這些連署書的安全因為這些連署書都是公民風吹日曬雨淋在街頭上一份一份簽出來的很怕有中間有任何的遺漏或者是遭到外力的破壞"},{"start":6816.607,"end":6828.934,"text":"可是現在送到選委會了大家對這個選委會並不信任嘛畢竟這個民政處長也被羈押了甚至中間有非常多行政不中立的情況那我們要如何確保放在選委會裡面的這些聯署書是安全的呢根據這個總統跟副總統還有公職人選舉的印製分發保管的作業要點"},{"start":6837.498,"end":6863.386,"text":"其實裡面有相關的規定我認為是可以參考的裡面提到說保管的處所的出入管制環境維護警衛的助手或者是遺失毀損的通報機制都有明確的規定可是目前看起來這個罷免的相關的規定是可以適用這個的嗎如果可以的話那為什麼我們看到的是放在選委會裡面花蓮選委會裡面的這些連署書如此的沒有保障呢"},{"start":6865.025,"end":6885.661,"text":"我們知道罷免的連署人的名冊他關係重大所以他的安全維護我們是要求要比照選票的成績來做安全維護也因此我們要求各地選委會至少要做到第一個"},{"start":6887.082,"end":6893.928,"text":"場地的安全是場地的安全包括消防安全包括這個電什麼的水你不要水噴出來對不可以變成說有外力去污漬或者是有人噴水或是不小心有人放火燒了嗎"},{"start":6902.334,"end":6914.041,"text":"這是一個第二個是人員的維護人員的維護除了我們選委會的地方的人員之外必要的時候人力不夠的話必要的時候還要這個這個僱用保全來做維護的工作"},{"start":6920.545,"end":6938.196,"text":"第三个非常重要的就是要跟当地的警务机关保持联系我们也行文给警政署以及各地的警察局请求他们支援警力能够加强保管处所的巡逻安全维护的工作"},{"start":6939.316,"end":6966.229,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委在這邊的說明我認為這樣的措施非常重要也感謝你們有注意到這件事情因為我們也很擔心以上說的這些情況萬一有一些意外發生會不會都是有人刻意為之我們當然要極力避免這樣的情況那當然我也不希望說到時候出現一些可能漏了幾百份 幾千份或者是有人刻意去"},{"start":6968.11,"end":6986.273,"text":"破壞或者是造成他的遺失那也擔心說會不會有人進出這個場所把他影印或是抄錄或者是刻意的洩漏這個都是我們非常擔心的事情所以在這邊也是再次的拜託中選會一定要確保連署書保管的安全"},{"start":6986.833,"end":7002.253,"text":"那最後一點時間我要接著前面幾位委員的詢問就是到底要如何做到選委會的利益迴避這件事因為現在的選委會的組成基本上就是地方的市政府怎麼說呢因為其實通常這個地方選委會的主委"},{"start":7003.214,"end":7014.517,"text":"就是要嘛就是市府的秘書長要嘛就是市府的可能市長自己兼任那裡面的總幹事也是明確的在組織規程裡面有規定說都是民政局長或處長或是副處長副局長大概就是這樣的組成那裡面的選委會雖然會有一些社會賢達人士但由於他主導的就是要嘛市長秘書長要嘛就是地方的民政處長"},{"start":7028.72,"end":7032.603,"text":"所以周慧你會發現在基隆在花蓮出現如此荒謬的事情雖然現在這兩位處長都已經被羈押了但是他們犯案的事實很明確利用護證系統濫查民眾的個資然後甚至是指派護證人員照著連署書上面的個資登門造訪這些連署的民眾這就是發生在基隆跟花蓮"},{"start":7053.556,"end":7081.356,"text":"很明確的犯案事實那如何確保選委會的公信力這件事情非常重要所以我也要請教我們中選會有沒有一些其他的方式或其他的建議加強地方選委會的公信力以及未來是不是有修正的可能讓選委會的組成是不要與市府如此重疊避免大家覺得你求冤兼裁判他可以直接把黑手伸進選委會裡"},{"start":7083.64,"end":7107.859,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教第一點我要特別強調我們的選務非常的龐雜那也需要大量的人力所以在每次全國性的選舉地方政府給我們的幫助很多我們一向以來選務機關跟地方政府都是一個夥伴的關係所以我們除了感謝之外我們也對於地方政府"},{"start":7108.919,"end":7118.481,"text":"當然彼此的尊重信任地方的護證人員非常重要我們也都是基於信任希望他們可以把海報事情做好但是我必須要講主委剛剛基隆花蓮案例我已經講過了但是前兩天在台中甚至還發生說這個副總幹事台中選委會的副總幹事過去就是他們南區的區長那現在是專職的選委會副總幹事可是他"},{"start":7134.565,"end":7151.411,"text":"跑到選委會裡面現在當副總幹事之後直接現場查對甚至用正本套糧每一張聯署書是不是符合規格然後中間一度的經過大量的刪除是據理力爭之後才把多數的聯署書留下來"},{"start":7154.003,"end":7174.719,"text":"接著我要報告的就是說畢竟兼職的主任委員跟總幹事他們對於選務的法令對於選務的實際的運作並不是那麼熟悉所以當碰到選務的運作的時候我們特別要求專職的副總幹事"},{"start":7176.42,"end":7193.705,"text":"副總幹事是專職的這就是我說的他是專職的副總幹事可是他過去就是台中戶政系統出來的區長這個當然啦當然這個我們也沒有辦法完全去避免這個東西所以要怎麼辦嘛我現在問你怎麼辦嘛很明顯他就行眾不中立啦中選會有這個指揮監督之權"},{"start":7197.086,"end":7214.966,"text":"我們要求我們專職的幹部一定要隨時提供正確的法令的資訊以及實務運作的相關的規定來給主任委員或者總幹事來提醒他們依法來行政"},{"start":7216.047,"end":7242.909,"text":"那再一點再一點如果說如果說這樣的提醒還沒有辦法來導正的話那中選會會介入的中選會不會聽任違法的狀況去進行我們不會這樣子做的至於怎麼做這個方法很多不過我們都是在尊重跟合法的情況之下來運作"},{"start":7244.215,"end":7264.41,"text":"好 謝謝中選會在這邊的承諾我就是希望說中選會要確保每一個縣市政府的選委會都可以做到依法行政然後不會有任何刁難 查水表行政部中立甚至濫用各自的行為發生我也利用這個機會跟各位報告一下剛剛提到台中的我們的陳副總幹事"},{"start":7266.171,"end":7287.156,"text":"據我們事後的了解雖然跟霸團之間大家有一些意見的出入但是溝通的結果之後都圓滿解決我們也沒有發現他過去因為他過去任何的職位經歷而有影響到選務中立他這樣一張一張用正本去套糧還沒有影響嗎"},{"start":7288.996,"end":7311.645,"text":"這個所謂的套糧這樣子的講法我不知道一指何為何他就是拿正本在這樣子格式有沒有對有沒有差這比用尺量還誇張好嗎查對的時候總是要有一個正本有一個我們的那個範本在那個地方要比對一下這個是正常的程序正常的程序大家不要把它特別的放大好啦那我還是希望中選會我們會注意你們的職責好謝謝"},{"start":7318.991,"end":7321.874,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員的資訊 下一位我們請徐益臻委員資訊謝謝主席 我們請李靜蓉主委 李主委有請"},{"start":7340.493,"end":7361.104,"text":"李主委好我想請教一下李主委就是我們各縣市的選委會的同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的是由中央支付就由中央嘛中選會嘛所以其實我們各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央中選會來支付相關的薪水嗎所以就是我們所謂的一條邊這樣是吧"},{"start":7363.385,"end":7385.02,"text":"我必須要澄清一下地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水而且我們也知道就是中央地方一條邊來執行選務工作那在這邊我要請教一下我們的李主委我們其實這段時間看到了我們今年大概創下全世界的首例也是二例"},{"start":7387.401,"end":7402.615,"text":"把我們的執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委那現在呢各地混亂的狀況也都在直指這個中選會的不公啊那所以這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受所以我們先來檢討就是罷免"},{"start":7404.597,"end":7425.703,"text":"提議連署不公的狀況因為其實在我們的選罷法第75條有規定就是就職未滿一年則不得罷免但是呢我們可以看到很多的罷團尤其是民進黨的總召柯建民說在113年1月15號也就是我們1月13號選完之後他就開始在準備大罷免了"},{"start":7426.323,"end":7438.466,"text":"那這樣其實就在鑽我們75條的漏洞喔那當然這個時候我們也有提案希望能夠來去這個填補這個漏洞希望就是改為我們75條應該改為應該就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署這樣才能規範這樣的問題可是這個問題目前都還沒有這樣子的中選會也不認同那請問中選會對於這個具體的防制作為目前有嗎"},{"start":7453.605,"end":7462.15,"text":"這是根據法律的規定中選會依法來執行如果因此說中選會不公那請問一下您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13就說他們要發起大罷免嗎而且在"},{"start":7470.515,"end":7496.509,"text":"這個滿一年之後2月1號滿一年2月3號他們就送出了這個中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛不要去看他們也不要去聽他們中選會要公正公平公開所以請不要閉起眼睛我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛半藍不半綠在各方爭議各方攻防的情況之下我們唯有像正義女神一樣要拍眼睛"},{"start":7497.129,"end":7510.865,"text":"當然要眼睛張開啊可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛就像您剛剛講的中選會就是辦完不辦綠喔所以75條法律的規定怎麼會是中選會不公正不中立呢我現在是說"},{"start":7511.966,"end":7531.951,"text":"因為民進黨在專長的法律漏洞那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣具體的作為那剛剛您講嘛你們會閉上眼睛法律沒有規定中選會就不能夠違法去執行那我們的修法您讚不讚同如果我來修正這一條其實我已經也提案要修正這個部分修法是立法委員是大院的職責謝謝主委的認同那接下來呢就是中選會在2月1號公告時其實這個部分就是"},{"start":7542.47,"end":7548.217,"text":"我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會可不可以在這個連署書上可不可以用打字蓋章替代親筆連署那中選會回答是可以嗎只要本人親自簽名就可以喔那其實呢這樣的一個方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑啦你前面是可以這個就是要用打字"},{"start":7562.835,"end":7572.271,"text":"蓋章打字抄寫都可以只要本人簽名或蓋章就可以嘛也就是說這一個聯署書如果是用打字再用蓋章那請問這樣是合格的聯署書嗎"},{"start":7576.468,"end":7593.522,"text":"那個個欄就是用打字的然後本人親自簽名或蓋章對那只要是用打字的然後最後是親自蓋章這個是合格的聯署書對不對對啊那這樣的話你要怎麼去查它是不是偽造你要怎麼去查它是不是有問題簽名"},{"start":7594.343,"end":7596.905,"text":"主要是簽名跟蓋章蓋章到刻印章去蓋的大概肉眼也可以做辨識主委的意思這樣就是不合格的"},{"start":7615.178,"end":7620.581,"text":"倒蓋當然是不合格倒蓋印章當然不合格倒蓋印章不合格我們現場的查隊人員他們會做辨識如果我們發覺是打字的或是抄寫的最後用蓋章的我們其實就可以去查隊"},{"start":7634.987,"end":7648.772,"text":"去了解他到底是不是這個錯假連署或偽造的我們的查罪人員會做辨識認定那另外我也在想請問一下主委就是告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼是依據查核錯誤的鑒數還是憑中選會的感覺憑選務人員的感覺"},{"start":7653.394,"end":7680.552,"text":"中選會跟這個選務人員不會憑感覺辦事那就是有一定的標準當然有一定的標準那希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對有關於這個死亡連署的部分是各地的戶政機關他們查對的結果有關於是否這個委簽或者是倒蓋這是我們當地的選務機關的人員他們的查對的項目"},{"start":7683.474,"end":7691.519,"text":"那我想請教一下主委就是過去有過市長的罷免案明代的罷免案還有總統副總統選舉的連署案也都有疑似偽造的情況請問中選會有沒有告發有有好請問告發的時間是什麼時候告發的時間大概不一啦不一好請問這剛我講的這三件市長的罷免案還有總統副總統選舉連署案這個都在什麼時候告發"},{"start":7710.759,"end":7727.292,"text":"大概會主委如果您忘記了我可以告訴你你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發應該講說是這個查對的程序結束之後結果我們委員會的審查最後的結果根據這個結果才去告發"},{"start":7728.547,"end":7732.25,"text":"您可能忘記了你們這兩件不管是韓市長的一個罷免案跟我們總統副總統的這個連署你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的其實我想要跟主委這個跟我講的沒有差別啦我想要跟主委探討的是其實其實說真的啦你現在在一階就已經對於這個這麼多的這個"},{"start":7753.988,"end":7780.482,"text":"疑似偽造文書 疑似這樣的一個狀況 各自法的部分就提出了告發的一個動作其實我想主委應該很清楚 連署是沒有辦法決定結果的是最後人民踏入我們的這個投票所 一票一票的蓋出來才能決定最後是否罷免成功 這個您認同吧我特別要強調的就是說 我們的告發是依法有據的"},{"start":7781.437,"end":7802.345,"text":"所以我想為什麼你們以前都是在選後才告發就是因為確實要由人民一票一票的投出來的結果才能夠影響選舉的結果所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作是這樣可是這次是非常罕見的大規模的在選舉第一階段的這個連署之"},{"start":7802.825,"end":7804.226,"text":"2月3號開始收案從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關區"},{"start":7826.098,"end":7832.524,"text":"那為什麼之前在那個韓市長被罷免案也有人檢舉檢舉檢調機關從2月到3月一共有14度發函來要我們一共資料所以狀況不一樣情況不一樣因為最後人民進這個投票所投票才會影響"},{"start":7851.721,"end":7856.324,"text":"那個跟連署是沒有關係的連署是他有沒有資格那如果你們覺得有偽造或是有這個相關的你們都已經剔除了嘛那當然我想在這邊也在跟主委請教就是說在過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後高雄地檢署是最後不起訴"},{"start":7878.576,"end":7906.124,"text":"那不起訴的聲明它是說於收集連署的過程中並未有護證系統等方式供查和比對身份的字號亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情勢是被告等人尚難以深知已是偽造斯文罪的這個罪責喔也就是說發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假能有這樣的能力的就只有選務機構"},{"start":7907.364,"end":7924.437,"text":"所以呢 需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的這個狀況才可以成立那請問一下主委 水務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是這個死亡連署的都已經挑出來的還有足深損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎就是說在連署的過程中"},{"start":7930.219,"end":7958.698,"text":"你们在我们的选务机关已经把错误的提议联署书挑出来这样还有足深损害于公众或他人吗就像我刚刚讲的最后的人民投票才能够影响那样的结果伪造是被我们认定的道科死亡联署是我们认定的我们认定了就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑他有犯罪的嫌疑刑事诉讼241条我们就应该要告发至于告发之后"},{"start":7960.059,"end":7967.184,"text":"構成要件該不該當主委那是司法機關的事情這是我們剛剛探討一個問題跟我們剛剛探討一個問題你這次你是主動告發的嘛我們中學會有主動告發然後再來就是說因為時間關係最後一個問題想要請教一下這個主委就是我要跟您探討一下偽造文書的這個問題就是前台中地方法院法官李敬勇"},{"start":7983.797,"end":8001.767,"text":"曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期依照當時的法官平和的機制如果李金勇法官在1985年11月31號前沒有開庭會因拖延審判而影響考機由假等降為已等獎金也會短少33125元但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查經將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號"},{"start":8012.333,"end":8040.313,"text":"意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象請問主委當年造假筆錄道田日啟的動機是什麼第一個我的答覆第一個這是40年前無罪判決的一個成年老案現在還拿出來說你也想看有什麼真假第二個這個案子沒有查評冊沒有死亡聯署也沒有道科印章"},{"start":8041.075,"end":8045.538,"text":"主委當年的判決書特別講到說本案被告李靖勇等人行為雖然具偽造之形式然而無罪的理由是因為未身實質損害所以獲判無罪並不是沒有這件事情而是因為沒有實質的損害那請問一下李靖勇我們的主委你當時"},{"start":8065.413,"end":8073.141,"text":"他們有到清晨時分到你家去大搜索嗎你們有被帶回徵訊一天一夜嗎你們有檢察官申請生壓嗎所以其實這個部分我只要跟我是要跟主委來探討我沒有要掩飾什麼我只是要跟主委探討我們這樣子的案子應該要偵查的比例原則應該要遵守"},{"start":8090.077,"end":8099.542,"text":"我覺得您非常的幸運因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好監察官所以才能夠放到這樣的時候如果到今天的話你可能會被剪掉鬆脫你可能會被施壓所以我覺得您很幸運因為當年遇到了這個可以依法行政的好監察官所以"},{"start":8115.191,"end":8125.203,"text":"李建宏主委您不要惱羞成怒我現在跟你探討的就是是不是依法行政的問題有沒有依照比例原則我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑"},{"start":8135.134,"end":8147.859,"text":"我們現在明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款它是說不管你多少年你曾經犯過罪你就一律排黑條款你就必須沒有辦法選舉當時你為什麼不講這40年前的怎麼可以這樣做所以已經有主委你不能自己一套標準對別人一套標準無助於掩飾這個資深系統性犯罪你只要曾經犯罪你就不能檢"},{"start":8162.924,"end":8173.734,"text":"不能夠再繼續參政,所以我覺得那個標準要一致,謝謝主委謝謝,我們感謝習政委員質詢,我們請牛錫廷召委質詢謝謝主席,李靖勇主委有請請主委你好"},{"start":8189.795,"end":8214.293,"text":"主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清"},{"start":8220.422,"end":8243.658,"text":"來下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派當然互相指責 有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了"},{"start":8244.238,"end":8261.18,"text":"但我們藉這樣一張連署之後我們延伸幾個問題啊就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天講不要講哪一區出現了這樣子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下這算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪"},{"start":8264.815,"end":8290.966,"text":"筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名"},{"start":8291.616,"end":8312.383,"text":"看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎"},{"start":8313.564,"end":8332.979,"text":"你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發"},{"start":8335.055,"end":8361.545,"text":"統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發然後這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以"},{"start":8363.466,"end":8388.792,"text":"順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查"},{"start":8389.838,"end":8417.634,"text":"全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧"},{"start":8419.844,"end":8438.567,"text":"本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分"},{"start":8439.108,"end":8455.332,"text":"其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就記所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實"},{"start":8465.015,"end":8482.67,"text":"所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎"},{"start":8484.163,"end":8508.648,"text":"中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理"},{"start":8509.434,"end":8530.619,"text":"但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆記相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對當然但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情有嫌疑"},{"start":8530.899,"end":8551.373,"text":"好所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來第二個"},{"start":8554.941,"end":8574.006,"text":"談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院"},{"start":8574.588,"end":8599.998,"text":"以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的"},{"start":8601.595,"end":8629.374,"text":"這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限"},{"start":8631.294,"end":8646.38,"text":"所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦"},{"start":8648.601,"end":8674.201,"text":"所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋那不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款"},{"start":8675.547,"end":8700.359,"text":"我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為啦如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚啊你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎"},{"start":8702.227,"end":8720.392,"text":"夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要操辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":8721.977,"end":8741.009,"text":"募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種"},{"start":8743.038,"end":8765.89,"text":"名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思啊主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免呢"},{"start":8768.809,"end":8784.443,"text":"罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":8787.78,"end":8815.062,"text":"呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧"},{"start":8816.325,"end":8840.436,"text":"提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每個人都掛看板掃市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免"},{"start":8843.197,"end":8865.45,"text":"你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形式以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊"},{"start":8866.511,"end":8879.799,"text":"但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱啦這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的情緒 中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重"},{"start":8895.629,"end":8904.413,"text":"好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝"},{"start":8930.819,"end":8933.102,"text":"好 辛苦 請李主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":8941.003,"end":8962.978,"text":"主委辛苦我先謝謝牛許廷召委今天很關心我們中選會的業務來排這一個業務報告那其實我也知道最關心的是即將被罷免可能二階之後即將投票然後包含的這些種種的這些過程我想大家都提出一些問題"},{"start":8964.451,"end":8984.485,"text":"那其實他們最想知道的是什麼我說被罷免的人即將現在已經二階已經送件送到選委會然後現在正在審查審查期間有多久40天嘛40天所以如果是今天送件的話"},{"start":8985.953,"end":9013.187,"text":"如果是今天是5月7號送件的話如果他是達標的他是沒有他是他的查對是沒有問題的40天內所以他最快應該是在一個月6月中旬就成案了對不對是那6月中旬成案之後20天到60天內舉行投票對不對是"},{"start":9013.922,"end":9039.887,"text":"那如果20天內舉行20天舉行投票的話最快最快是7月就可以投票了7月上旬7月上旬就可以投票了這一次的罷免團體非常的特別從什麼時候開始的從去年開始國民黨跟民眾黨推動國會擴權法案"},{"start":9042.898,"end":9069.546,"text":"引發很多人的注意從沈博洋委員被推下發言台那一刻開始立法院外面的青鳥集結從國會跨權法案被宣告無效之後國民黨跟民眾黨持續推動限訴法要讓憲法法庭宣告違憲的憲法法庭沒有辦法開會"},{"start":9071.013,"end":9092.151,"text":"持續推動選罷法的修法要求未來如果要聯署罷免的人要附身份證繼續推動刪除很多的預算把預算做了很多的刪除引發這些罷免團體從"},{"start":9096.909,"end":9122.575,"text":"二月開始集結送件最快是二月三號四號開始送件也就是符合一年開始送件其實這個過程裡面有給他們補考的機會如果二月三號以後一接送件在行政院提出預算的附議三月十二號投票的時候其實我想"},{"start":9124.298,"end":9153.226,"text":"如果讓總預算順利的可以復翼的話那這些二階不會那麼踴躍畢竟二階刪掉畢竟總預算刪掉的包含在這個委員會裡面海委會海巡署被刪掉的預算被捅刪15%的預算是捅刪掉台灣國防15%的預算裡面包含今年海巡署有兩艘艦艇可能沒有辦法交艦"},{"start":9156.119,"end":9181.012,"text":"是這樣嚴重的這些過程累積這些二階的連署讓這些二階的連署現在到今天過了從一階開始過來到現在從二月到現在過了三個月二階連署目前剛剛主委報告已經有二十件送件了那還有三十件還是在連署當中那一我的估計"},{"start":9183.196,"end":9204.57,"text":"看所有這些公民團體的這些數量的這些估計以我們的估計這個禮拜可能還會有很多的送件那這禮拜還會有很多的送件將都會集中在7月中旬以前投票那所以國民黨他現在跟民眾黨各提了兩個公投法"},{"start":9205.373,"end":9230.274,"text":"公投法的規定是每年的八月八月的什麼時候要投票八月二十三八月二十三也就是離七月中旬還有一個月的時間所以剛剛有國民黨的委員吶要求主委要求你要把罷免投票跟公投綁在同一天這個是他們以為他們可以補考的機會主委你不用回答"},{"start":9231.377,"end":9257.172,"text":"因為 霸團每一個人所有這些青鳥們他們這三個月來每天在外面擺攤別的年輕人在聽音樂會另外一批年輕人跑到音樂會門口希望他們的朋友們希望關心台灣未來的這些朋友們一起參加罷免來保護台灣的民主來針對去年種種的這些亂象來罷免"},{"start":9260.336,"end":9281.446,"text":"他不是要中選會你去喬時間他們已經辛苦在外面三個月了三個月辛辛苦苦每一張請所有的認同他們的人來提出的罷免聯署書可以讓你們這樣子要求跟公投一起一起投票你們就答應嗎我覺得"},{"start":9283.612,"end":9308.006,"text":"要非常尊重所有的罷免團體因為我們看到這些年輕人他們已經在外面已經很辛苦的簽了三個月如果你一個選務機關可以直接裁定把他們辛辛苦苦這個禮拜就送件七月中就要投票硬是要往後延我覺得這個是不對的所以 主委"},{"start":9309.505,"end":9324.688,"text":"尊重罷免團體的這些憤怒尊重罷免團體的這些時程我覺得中選會也必須要有一定的尊照這些法律規定的這些時間來做執行 主委你會不會尊照"},{"start":9326.4,"end":9345.685,"text":"選罷法裡面目前包含40天查核期包含成案之後20天到60天投票20天裡面的這些裁量他們已經憤怒很久了已經3個月了接下來再40天4個月了希望中選會可以秉公的來處理"},{"start":9347.479,"end":9372.519,"text":"报告委员每一个案件它的进行的时程不同所以它成案的时间所以我刚刚跟你讨论的时间就是在我们现在刚刚业务报告里面有讲的20件包含这一周都还在送件的这些进度里面我推算的时间主委刚刚也有推算出来是在7月中旬"},{"start":9373.34,"end":9394.125,"text":"但是他不會是所有的案件都是在那一邊所以可能會有落差那如果沒有補件明顯超過這一些我們現在就可以看到明顯超過百分之一百二一百三的這一些可能就很有機會在七月中旬我們大概是三個原則第一個原則就是必須要合法"},{"start":9394.96,"end":9422.734,"text":"因為每一個案件就是法律規定在他宣告成立之後20到60天之內要辦理投票這一定要符合法律的規定第二個一定要在這個社會成本的考量之下你這樣不斷地動彎社會輔助最大的成本這當然我們選務機關也不會看到那第三個還要考慮到我們選務的能量我們可以打幾打"},{"start":9424.475,"end":9445.885,"text":"所以我們基於這三個考量按照每一個案子進行的時序我們會提到委員會去來做審慎的決定最後他們補考的題目我也講一下啦國民黨提出的公投有兩個一個是反廢死一個是反戰爭"},{"start":9448.7,"end":9475.911,"text":"大概這兩個但是他的這些內容文字明顯的很難處理讓人很難去做這個公投的投票所以如果立法院提出的違反公投法第二條的公投案第二條就是說他不是法律的覆決他不是立法原則的創制他是重大政策的創制或覆決但是他的重大政策裡面的問句又特別多你沒有辦法讓人民判斷"},{"start":9476.897,"end":9480.573,"text":"請問中選會要怎麼處理我們還有什麼救濟的手段"},{"start":9481.219,"end":9506.919,"text":"中選會是依法來執行職務他如果違反第二條立法院根據公民投票法15條第二項的規定他是可以就公民投票法第二條第二項第三款也就是所謂的重大政策的創制或複決來交付公投重大政策說不要戰爭不要戰爭就是說"},{"start":9510.401,"end":9536.456,"text":"這個國防 我們跟美國買太多國防會惹怒中國可能會引發戰爭這樣合理嗎這個是最基本的條件我是不敢說它合不合理最基本的條件就是說你一定要護航你提出來的案子必須是重大政策的覆決或創制那我們中選會就會跟著辦下去好 謝謝主委時間的關係 謝謝"},{"start":9538.867,"end":9548.65,"text":"好 謝謝李柏鈺委員的質詢下一位我們請賴思豹委員質詢我們在賴委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘進行第四天的溝通好 請賴思豹委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請中選會的李金勇主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":9565.305,"end":9589.121,"text":"主委好,我最近這一陣子才知道地方選委會是空的,是假的裡面的成員都是你們的大概少數一兩個是地方政府的總幹事是他們的秘書長其他都是你們派的中選會是中央派出的機關不是,我是說地方選委會"},{"start":9590.656,"end":9594.941,"text":"地方選委會是中央派出的機關所以他的專職的人員都是我們派出的"},{"start":9599.554,"end":9624.7,"text":"所以地方選委會做什麼決定要你們決定沒有沒有沒有地方選委會做什麼決定要經過地方選委會的委員會議來做決定那也是合一致的請問你這個比如說台北市政府台北市議會如果通過對台北市選委會選委會的一些的要求算不算數"},{"start":9626.257,"end":9645.263,"text":"台北市議會這個嚴格的講起來我們地方的選委會並不受地方議會的監督了並不受他監督建議也不可以建議你各方的建議我們都願意聆聽那我現在就跟你講一個這個這個這個事實上都很清楚了其實"},{"start":9651.908,"end":9664.579,"text":"藍綠都有抄的一個現象不是只有說藍軍在抄綠軍也有抄啦可是大家都清楚的你們中選會也好什麼也好藍軍就特別嚴格綠軍就是好過好過這不對你聽我講你不要急著查對嘛這個查對都是地方的護證機關他們主要查對你聽我講"},{"start":9679.131,"end":9687.837,"text":"事實上我就親耳聽到啦某一個民進黨的大老旗的立委就丟出來工會名單給人家抄啊工會的名單啦要再提抄啊"},{"start":9692.33,"end":9694.631,"text":"我比較難過了反正這個東西外界的質疑"},{"start":9709.597,"end":9712.64,"text":"我覺得如果委員講得如此具體的話委員也可以依法去告發不要忍在肚子裡面不是我們那是司法機關我都可以告訴你"},{"start":9736.261,"end":9763.55,"text":"我的選區有一個里長請問里長可以不可以去挨家挨戶按電影說請你來連署來罷免誰可不可以可不可以里長可不可以里長這個也不是中選會管的有沒有去可以不可以也有沒有去侵擾到這個人民的他就是跟跟每一個他的里裡面每一個在敲門請你連署有沒有違反相關的法令尤其是社會秩序違法可以不可以"},{"start":9764.15,"end":9772.517,"text":"我就問你可不可以嗎這個要看他具體的狀況有權責機關我已經跟你講夠具體的有權責機關來認定權責機關是誰權責機關是誰這個至少他可能牽涉到的會不會違反了社會秩序維護法如果是違反社會法的話那就是檢查機關了檢查機關起地這個因為有人就跟我告訟了我數字都有啊我只是想說到底要找誰我都不知道找誰啊"},{"start":9794.758,"end":9815.723,"text":"我都不知道找誰啊他就一家一家按電鈴一家一家按電鈴請問你里長可以介入這次罷免嗎里長可以嗎公務員可不可以公務員要秉持行政中立對公務員不可以啊里長可不可以里長可不可以請問你你告訴我里長他怎麼樣"},{"start":9818.109,"end":9837.525,"text":"介入 到底是如何介入啊請人家連署罷免或者請人家告訴人家不要罷免這個東西里長可不可以介入他不要動用到這個公家的資源不要動用到他里長的身份的話應該是沒有這個他才來就是里長啊他怎麼樣就是里長啊"},{"start":9840.387,"end":9854.271,"text":"人家之所以理他,就是因為他里長啊,不然的話任何人張三理事開門,他怎麼開門呢?晚上怎麼開門呢?就里長來跟你哭哭哭,欸我是里長啊,開門這個喔,你來喔,來看這個喔整個里長一站一站哀呼耶,里長這樣做耶然後中選會都沒事情耶,地方選委會都沒事情耶"},{"start":9864.332,"end":9885.728,"text":"不是說他沒事,是中選會,這不歸中選會管嘛對不對,警察就跟人家講說這不是說管人,這中選會管人,他就是中選會啊跟警察講,警察說是中選會委員德高望重,這資深的委員應該知道他的權責怎麼劃分的另外啊,其實有很多人被抄了不知道"},{"start":9887.088,"end":9908.049,"text":"所以呢地方議會就希望說我提高那種發信的比例即便一個比如說台北市來講五個被罷了立委一個算五份好不好就叫二十幾萬二十幾萬人一戶充二十塊錢好了油資來回幾百萬都負擔得起啊為什麼因為已經發信了徐曉新議員都已經揭露了"},{"start":9911.372,"end":9918.134,"text":"今天他的名字被抄了,明天詐騙集團就來了,詐騙集團就來了告訴你什麼地方可以借錢啊,來啦他想說奇怪,我個資,我個資因為他被抄啦被插上去啦,被人抄去,還沒去賭,賭了就不好都不好啊,現在來講,藍軍高樓他都不理啊可能是這樣啦,台灣這個社會可能在這裡啦"},{"start":9937.319,"end":9963.534,"text":"你知道嗎?我去找都有顧啦,找警察都不理啦,很可憐啦,真的現在整個來講,我們台灣的政治,其實罷免就罷免的尊重事實上我們就看得到,今天的懲案這麼多,要不是第二階段,民進黨強力介入,都有誇大喔我的山谷裡面,三海民進黨的議員,目前的三千分以上,高來,有要高五千分?高來,都這樣?"},{"start":9966.929,"end":9985.935,"text":"都這樣教沒有民進黨的支持我告訴你通過第二階的十個人都不到我跟你講我們依法查對啦至於他怎麼來的只要是合法來的都可以所以我就跟你講是說當地方的包括台北市議院民進黨喔簡淑培議員喔你電視看得到嗎"},{"start":9987.731,"end":10002.978,"text":"他都要求蔣萬安市長應該提高罰金的比例民進黨議員要求國民黨的市長做這個事情結果你說不可以 結果你說不可以中選會認為說這樣子的做法是於法無據"},{"start":10004.366,"end":10012.99,"text":"沒有啦,你們那個不是法律,那個是行政指導,帶動你那個位階很低啊,那不是法律啊不是行政指導,不是行政指導,這個就是行政指導啊,我們規定的啊你們規定的也含糊,你們說又有抄襲之嫌,又有重複之嫌我每天看到都有重複,我每天都有重複,很主觀的啊"},{"start":10027.877,"end":10054.712,"text":"所以我是覺得你不會限制壓制人家這個是極端化啦我們的公務員他不會如此的做法每一個人都要負起責任的並不是說查對了然後你把它封起來不會再去被檢驗可能會被檢驗請問你現在打字也可以啊可以對啊打字可以怎麼打字名字不可以打字名字不可以打字名字印章也可以啊印章也可以啊"},{"start":10056.673,"end":10065.141,"text":"印章不能偷刻的啊對啊那你怎麼知道偷刻所以你印章可以當裡面打字都是用打字的他怎麼會看出來這個是兩個一樣打字當然都一樣啊你怎麼區別所以這個"},{"start":10069.525,"end":10092.75,"text":"太多漏洞了太多你們的主觀的權利太大了中選會不應該有這麼大的權利而且你那個底下是行政之道現在我就跟你講因為被抄的被抄之後他的個資外洩產生了很嚴重的後果詐騙集團已經到他家來了我現在跟你講的是有時有據的我們找了警察去農博站"},{"start":10093.83,"end":10120.608,"text":"即便我這麼自身利誤因為你們在當家他不敢得罪你我們中選會一再的強調所謂的查對是由地方政府的互證機關跟地方選委會我們的人員他們分別來查對整合之後才送中央不是中央直接去查對所以這個我剛剛有提到"},{"start":10122.409,"end":10123.771,"text":"我剛剛講說連地方的議員都說拜託你們多記一點因為這個有個資外洩的問題很嚴重你們不同意啊"},{"start":10131.618,"end":10150.938,"text":"不是 這個不合法嘛 怎麼同意呢怎麼會沒有規定呢即使是行政規定 也是法律授權 也是法律授權那個是位階很低很低很低的啦真的位階非常低的啦 不要唬人家啦"},{"start":10153.921,"end":10176.57,"text":"你不要為了這個防堵一些這個可能發生的危險而去妨礙絕大多數人行使他的權利已經發生了你這樣子講你全部都發你去妨礙多少人行使他權利都發財知道我個子有沒有被盜個子被盜我的還有最後一個我請問你"},{"start":10178.17,"end":10194.165,"text":"現在為什麼有些人開始見訊收到了說請他去聯署他不是個子被盜嗎我的電話裡面就我的簡訊就有人傳來了啊你有沒有去聯署啊 我要報名稅啊有沒有聯署啊都來啊"},{"start":10195.194,"end":10215.875,"text":"這不是各自被盜嗎我們選務機關不會把這個資料去外洩的我們選務機關不會外洩的我覺得你們太多事情了如果有的話如果有的話歡迎委員能夠提供我們主動來查主動來移送我們對你是一點希望都沒有的因為你的歷史太偏了不然你再來問"},{"start":10219.181,"end":10221.743,"text":"你沒有信任我,你又來問我我問你都答對了,我問你都答對了,什麼都不可以鐵板一塊,綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠"},{"start":10241.637,"end":10250.283,"text":"好 謝謝賴司法委員的質詢現在按照剛剛的宣告我們休息五分鐘請各黨團針對臨時提案部分把握時間進行溝通現在休息"},{"start":11083.786,"end":11092.072,"text":"報告委員會我們繼續開會因為臨時提案有一些要上代溝通所以我們現在稍微調整一下我們先請吳清明委員質詢完之後再進行處理現在請吳清明委員質詢好主席我們一會同仁請我們中選會主委李主委有請"},{"start":11112.579,"end":11127.893,"text":"主委辛苦了今天早上很多都是談那個罷免還有幽靈的連署還有死亡的連署因為這都造成非常大的衝擊讓全國大家民眾都在看尤其我本身也是"},{"start":11129.074,"end":11139.843,"text":"所以在這種問題 這都是要做徹底的改觀因為你造假來連署 這都對社會的事情都不好所以分析在這裡 也要建議我們中選會是不是可以研究一下今天我們所有的市民 他要知道他有連署或沒有 還是去造假"},{"start":11151.3,"end":11175.627,"text":"是不是說在網路上我們現在資訊都很透明是不是說在網路上他個人也不涉及到各自的問題他個人要上網去查輸入於他自己的自然人憑證有的去查到說他確實有沒有去連署或是有人冒用他的名字去連署這是不是說未來我們要徹底的改觀"},{"start":11180.897,"end":11205.877,"text":"這個我們考慮到的第一個就是個人資料的一個保護恐怕需要再深入的討論那關於這個電子的部分我們現在就罷免的部分是罷免連署的電子罷免案的電子連署大概這個系統我們已經建立的差不多了"},{"start":11206.878,"end":11220.029,"text":"如果認為說要開放個人的查詢的話可不可能在現有系統的情況之下架構之下來增加它的功能這個都要做進一步的討論"},{"start":11221.615,"end":11238.306,"text":"我希望主委我們還是要擔當這個我們中選委一定要對民眾有一個交代民眾比較透明去了解說到底他有沒有去冒用有沒有被冒用或是臨時有沒有不實"},{"start":11239.526,"end":11264.04,"text":"讓他們更為透明化這是本市的建議讓我們可以檢討民眾的疑慮再來呢因為我早上我看我們中選會的經費我們的一倍金剩100萬那你未來這二接的發明二接要即將邁入三接的"},{"start":11265.561,"end":11277.547,"text":"的選舉那你這個經費過嗎這當然不過當然不過我看到行政院的一倍金也剩差不多一千多萬那未來你要怎樣去辦這個選舉呢"},{"start":11279.597,"end":11299.036,"text":"這個一定要申請行政院准於動之第二預備金因為這個金額也相當龐大對啊對啊所以你那個經費你也是要先去處理啊是我們行政院也很關心我們經常保持聯繫對對好那再來就是問我新北市啦我新北市的選區"},{"start":11300.818,"end":11317.604,"text":"現在我我我手上我看很多媒體都在報導說新莊新莊有7個議員他平均是一個議員是60457人那土室三英平均有"},{"start":11318.704,"end":11340.993,"text":"有十個議員平均是六萬兩千四百八十人那一個議員還多了兩千人那媒體都在報導啊說我們山陰地區啊我們議員會少一席啊領口會增加一席啊那我看那個人口的結果裡面下去算的比例我們這邊還多了兩千多人啊"},{"start":11341.613,"end":11350.083,"text":"那是不是請主委我們新北市誰負責的找他們來回覆好不好好 那請主秘來說評一下"},{"start":11353.478,"end":11369.788,"text":"跟委員報告那有關那個下一屆這個直轄市議員的名額分配如果我們是在以往例是在11月投票的話我們是以明年的這個5月底的人口數那由內政部會把這個應選名額來"},{"start":11372.452,"end":11401.812,"text":"含資給中選會來做辦理那所以要以明年五月的這個人口數來作為基礎計算明年五月才能確定那我請問一下你說人口數他也是照這個人口數的比例比如說新莊現在一個議員平均六萬人那土石山陰現在平均數是六萬兩千多人那應該缺少應該是新莊那邊不可能是"},{"start":11405.015,"end":11413.584,"text":"未來內政部核算這個名額給我們的時候他就會去考慮這個名額分配還有人口計算的一個基礎"},{"start":11415.483,"end":11430.194,"text":"還是以人口吧對好這是本期因為我最近我看了很多媒體都在報導土司山林會少一席新莊新莊那邊不動那林口那邊會增加一席所以我趁這個我們中選會的時候來問大家"},{"start":11434.097,"end":11449.527,"text":"好那謝謝主秘好主委最近辛苦了真的好主委真的我們中選會真的他們都是非常辛苦了那人手又少那經費又少這其實這都是要改觀的"},{"start":11452.229,"end":11469.476,"text":"不然你這樣又來又搬的活動 又搬的選舉都是要花錢啦你一個罷免案我看起碼都要花一千萬以上嘛那你全國那麼多起碼花了算好幾億這都是經費的問題啊所以我們會更加審慎辦理各項選務好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝吳啓明委員的質詢好 現在我們處理"},{"start":11482.533,"end":11508.104,"text":"這個臨時提案 臨時提案總共計三案請宣讀臨時提案一近期新聞媒體與社群上偶有地方選舉委員會對罷免連署書以尺寸工具或其他器材加以丈量之說辭為中央選舉委員會下稱中選會否認有發生相關情勢為人應積極掌握各地方選舉委員會執行情形確保各地方選委會合法查對"},{"start":11508.775,"end":11525.619,"text":"且审核标准一致不得以无从救济之方式剔除联署书令就后续查对作业程序也应掌握各地方政府选举委员会之处理作业情形避免个人资料外泄或再发生非法访问调查联署人之情事提案人委员苏巧慧等六人"},{"start":11526.687,"end":11549.88,"text":"临时提案二就114年公职人员罢免案提议阶段之详细查对结果虽中央选举委员会以下简称中选会之罢免案查对结果会定期公告于中选会之委员会议记录但民众实际上仍需仰赖新闻媒体作为收取公职人员罢免案资讯之主要来源因媒体之报道较为详尽时效上也较为快速"},{"start":11550.58,"end":11566.14,"text":"然有鉴于个别媒体之报道速度与资讯详实度不一显然保障人民参政权与知情权之公平性资讯亦可能因不同媒体之报道内容有落差而陷入混乱不仅不利公众讨论亦不利人民参政权的行使"},{"start":11567.492,"end":11592.459,"text":"且有審中選會公正主持選務之形象原要求中選會延役並於114年5月委員會議討論就罷免案之詳細查對結果統計資訊於各階段實質審查完畢後統一公開上網以落實人民知情權及參政權之內涵保障我國選務公平公正公開之形象提出書面報告並向"},{"start":11593.419,"end":11620.005,"text":"本院内政委员会提出书面报告提案人委员苏巧慧等六人临时提案三现行罢免联署的查对作业缺乏客观的认定标准查对标准程序及相关人包括罢免领衔人被罢免人的参与查对机制查对作业的公开透明是确保罢免成案的正确性可信任性的基础"},{"start":11620.492,"end":11632.762,"text":"原提案請中央選舉委員會盡速提案修正相關法律法規並在修法前在合法範圍內落實執行查對作業的公開透明提案人委員許新穎等三人宣讀完畢好這個第一案跟第二案的部分第一案經過這個跟中選會的溝通已經達成共識"},{"start":11647.386,"end":11662.871,"text":"那麼第二案也達成共識 做文字的修正好 所以我們第一案跟第二案照文字修正的部分來通過 照案通過 可以嗎好 謝謝 那第三案的部分我們再進行文字上的一些修正"},{"start":11676.822,"end":11701.283,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":11705.731,"end":11719.221,"text":"超級超級超級超級"},{"start":11725.606,"end":11748.864,"text":"這樣就好對啊,這已經是你啦你現在就...你現在就...你現在就...你現在就...你現在就..."},{"start":11751.288,"end":11777.686,"text":"有超過 別人同樣一個人超過只有三張第三張的肌肉部門還在附近那這個現象這裡就有五張對不對然後三張都不見了天上就有五張 說不定就是一張三張的肌肉部門還在附近一張的肌肉部門還在附近一張"},{"start":11788.437,"end":11788.457,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":11805.894,"end":11807.755,"text":"好 謝謝大家"},{"start":11826.442,"end":11829.973,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":11841.019,"end":11859.551,"text":"應該要有色光的"},{"start":11860.572,"end":11868.438,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":11875.857,"end":11896.964,"text":"法律還有未定哪些項目要相同"},{"start":11923.898,"end":11923.918,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":11947.048,"end":11947.068,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":11972.686,"end":11972.706,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":11984.093,"end":12007.806,"text":"所以我們是不是可以請他們提供一份照序那我們自己吸救然後該修法的我們是免費修法就是我們可以就此來請中選會議來要求不同的地方選委因為現在的問題是在於各個地方的委員有沒有照著這個目標去做"},{"start":12009.587,"end":12032.672,"text":"對啊 都要犯罪啊沒有參加獎勵所以你們都有獎勵所以你直接叫他改直接就因為他到底要改什麼"},{"start":12035.333,"end":12061.24,"text":"所以你今天是不是單純的叫他把那東西拿出來大家給應該有做過標準器都有在你什麼什麼方法拿出來讓大家 包括你所有的老闆知道你怎麼做的他說你有應有你必須要準確的那類的說實話這樣會比較準確所以他就沒有說明就沒有辦法"},{"start":12074.665,"end":12075.146,"text":"蔣相關單位請請蔣相關單位"},{"start":12101.084,"end":12125.521,"text":"可以 可以 這是我唯一用到的就是第四線一樣的 能用到黑牙的 能用到黑牙的那 黑牙 再補一下沒在了 好 好那 那我們現在選 關門了我們現在是在選黑牙的 要 呵呵呵好了 好"},{"start":12130.913,"end":12159.695,"text":"再想想看 做好的做法再去考慮那當然 盡速就要再進行就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮"},{"start":12174.778,"end":12191.724,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12201.495,"end":12202.535,"text":"沒了沒了"},{"start":12233.659,"end":12243.804,"text":"好 謝謝經過溝通之後臨時提案我們照文字修正通過 請問委員會有意見好 謝謝臨時提案處理完畢我們繼續進行質詢 下一位我們請徐姓委員質詢"},{"start":12262.366,"end":12266.109,"text":"好謝謝主席本席有請李主委李主委有請主委好今天中選會業務報告那當然本席時間不多我想就現在我們"},{"start":12282.268,"end":12311.033,"text":"全國正在進行的罷免但是不是就這次案例我想主委你一定了解選舉罷免創制複決是人民的權利那罷免呢這個對象從立法委員到縣市長到鄉鎮市長各級民意代表縣市議員鄉鎮市民代表甚至里長都是在罷免的範圍內所以我們但是因為罷免在台灣的案例不多"},{"start":12311.833,"end":12328.542,"text":"所以可能也有很多大家不了解甚至也許我們並不是法令也不一定完善的部分所以本席今天特別提出一些部分因為時間不夠有幾個部分特別提出來"},{"start":12329.198,"end":12345.701,"text":"也跟這個主委這邊來討論首先第一個就是我想主委您應該是認同你等一下可以回答看是不是認同您是中選會所以整個中選會的業務很重要的你的公平性跟正確性是不是很重要"},{"start":12346.201,"end":12375.731,"text":"这一直是我们的核心的价值对因为尤其这个影响到选举罢免创之复绝所以公平性非常重要所以如果谈到罢免的话罢免案的形成它是要联署两阶段的联署对那但是联署很容易有伪造的情势我想卓伟也认同所以你这个伪造有各式各样譬如超名单或代签名这个是有没有罪的"},{"start":12377.355,"end":12403.415,"text":"抄名單帶簽名對然後成為他的聯署書來源是抄名單帶簽名有沒有對我想這根據一般的常識既然是偽造的應該會牽涉到刑事責任刑事責任對所以主委也也也知道那像這個很多罷免團體他可能不知道他隨隨隨隨便的抄那像這一塊中選會這個"},{"start":12405.918,"end":12430.18,"text":"有沒有什麼防範的我們就是當然我們希望我們要求每一份連署書它都是真正的都是當事人他自己簽名或蓋章你們怎麼要求是那我們就所以法律上就有所謂的查對的制度我們在第一階段也要進行查對第二階段的連署也要進行查對"},{"start":12430.991,"end":12460.129,"text":"那今天你查對你只是剔除他最後他也沒有刑責啊被你查到他有刑責嗎查到的會有刑責喔不是你你查對的時候你剔除剔除的可能有些是偽造的被你剔除我們會把這些案件移送給檢查機關他們去繼續偵辦剔除的你都會送送檢不是就是有偽造的情形一般所謂的死前連署"},{"start":12460.765,"end":12487.381,"text":"包括稻科印章包括偽造簽名這個都是可能還有抄名單抄名單這就是用抄襲的抄名單看狀況抄名單你如果只是抄上面這一部分你沒有去幫他簽名的話這是另外一個問題抄名單但是連簽就是最重要是簽名還有幫他蓋章就是自己去刻章或者是幫他代簽這個是有問題的是有問題"},{"start":12489.062,"end":12517.802,"text":"有刑責的有刑責好OK那另外就是在罷免案的形成的時候那有這種欺騙詐騙的情況好像這個大家最近聽到的他上面說利用民眾的同情心說凱開案很多家長都覺得非常的痛心這個凱開案要怎麼樣你要來連署結果底下是罷免的連署這種有沒有問題"},{"start":12519.058,"end":12530.253,"text":"這個我們查對無從查對起所以如果有這種情形它是否牽涉到犯罪相關的當事人他可以尋求司法的解決"},{"start":12533.391,"end":12558.39,"text":"但是當事人並不知道所以本席要跟你講就是說你在整個罷免案形成的時候有很多的偽造甚至欺騙詐騙的情況因為民眾所以你在核實所以我們要提到就是說你在查核查對的時候你一定要非常的落實因為有些人他簽完他覺得我今天是因為凱凱案我簽啊我不知道我簽了罷免所以像這種"},{"start":12562.418,"end":12590.761,"text":"可能也很多你今天你都用同樣的手法可能今天十張你十個人就被騙了簽署這個聯署書我們沒有辦法去審核他的動機我們只能夠就他的真假來進行查對所以有些所以在這個徵詢含詢的部分是不是應該落實而且可以擴大"},{"start":12593.121,"end":12621.869,"text":"我们还是按照法律的规定所以按照现有应该说现有法律的规定对 按照现有法律的规定觉得有疑虑的因为查对人员有他一定的专业如果他根据他的专业去判断有伪造的嫌疑的时候那他就可以发查询单好那再来剩下一点时间本席想请教有关这个恶意的谣言啊"},{"start":12623.257,"end":12643.406,"text":"在罷免期間呢很多這種謠言或是抹紅栽贓塗黑的行為他都躲在言論自由的背後躲在言論自由的大傘之下這種情況您的看法怎麼樣那一部分我們是管不到"},{"start":12644.306,"end":12671.686,"text":"我們照顧的是有很多有關選務的錯假訊息謠言在攻擊選務機關的公正那這部分我們都會立即來做澄清來做說明好那如果這樣的話本席請教你一下你看一下這個有關預算法第83條有準備嗎您看一下您看一下您看一下這樣的修法我們"},{"start":12674.741,"end":12680.802,"text":"立法我們行政院還可以提預算特別預算嗎應該還是可以吧還是有特別預算吧這個好像跟這個跟我們的不是啦我是以你法學專業法學專業那你看了一下這個法條你來判斷一下人家跟你說這個修法修下去可能我們都不可能有特別預算了你認同嗎"},{"start":12704.708,"end":12726.313,"text":"在行政院的团队里面各有所失我跟行政院没关我现在是纯粹看这个法条您本身法学背景法学素养的吗我在这个时候你避重就轻你不想查你对很多的谣言你这样是变相的对选务的部分我来负责做说明基本的判断嘛"},{"start":12727.392,"end":12750.484,"text":"所以現在我們的中選會對於整個社會上用言論自由然後但是進行栽贓抹黑抹紅謠言你們完全沒束手無策我這個時候就不能夠去介入不能夠去干預不能夠去在乎我這個時候就是要完全維持選務的中立選罷法104條是什麼您知道嗎"},{"start":12756.991,"end":12775.76,"text":"不知道那要加強一下選辦法是什麼惡意謠言的部分他雖然有規範你有沒有覺得非常的模糊"},{"start":12781.468,"end":12790.803,"text":"選辦法104條您的看法怎麼樣就是按照法律來規定的執行有違反法律的規定的那就必須要受到處罰"},{"start":12792.377,"end":12819.703,"text":"所以有散布谣言或传播不实之事这种就可以处五年以下有期徒刑那你们会执行吗有发现有这些谣言有人跟你们告发之后跟你们提出你们会告发你们会判定之后告发吗我们执行职务发现有这些状况的话那我们是必须要告发受害者可以跟你们反映吗"},{"start":12821.192,"end":12828.54,"text":"不必繞個圈子,直接跟檢察官反應都快所以中選會現在等於對於整個選務你也沒有辦法讓整個選罷法的執行能夠比較落實"},{"start":12841.27,"end":12854.843,"text":"這個是屬於司法處理的範圍之內當然我們作為執行公務的機關發現有犯罪嫌疑我們是可以告發的最後因為時間的關係你身為中選會的主委你有沒有發現台灣現在非常亂"},{"start":12861.148,"end":12876.092,"text":"謠言滿天飛你有沒有這種感覺我盡量就是能夠避開這些紛紛擾擾我要求我們的選委人員所以你是中選會的主委你完全不管現在整個你要承辦的業務他在這個過程中的情況"},{"start":12880.454,"end":12882.939,"text":"我聚焦在維護我們選務的完整選務的中立而不受任何外力的干擾"},{"start":12893.546,"end":12909.265,"text":"包括谣言的朋友好 最后那您对于所有所有的这个查对第二阶段第一阶段第二阶段查核查对罢免案的查核查对您你们都会"},{"start":12910.466,"end":12933.075,"text":"這個承諾一定都會嚴格不是嚴格就是核實如實查核按照法律規定你們一定如實查核沒有任何一點這個輕忽或者是草率隨便的查我們全國的選務工作夥伴包括資源的人員都會盡心盡力按照法律的規定來執行職務"},{"start":12935.472,"end":12960.575,"text":"好很好全民也都希望而且罷免罷免從這段時間開始全國有這種罷免的聲音本席相信之後各級民意代表可能大家對罷免已經慢慢熟悉了就像以前選舉大家不熟悉後來熟悉了對選舉未來可能罷免的這個部分在各級民意代表都有可能發生所以我們主要就是對於"},{"start":12961.816,"end":12978.67,"text":"霸團我們也要保障他們的這個權益還有被罷免人我們都希望所以我們希望中選會能夠真的把這個整個選務可以做好好謝謝委員好謝謝許新穎委員質詢報告委員會我們中午不休息我們繼續質詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12991.597,"end":13018.28,"text":"主席 各位委員有請這個主委李主委有請主委辛苦了我們看這個今天中選會的報告裡面特別提到公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備情形特別提到這個"},{"start":13019.537,"end":13045.839,"text":"公職人員罷免案電子連署系統107年6月15號建制完成這裡面也特別提到本會將視全國性公民投票電子連署系統實際使用情形評估公職人員選罷法罷免案電子連署系統上限事宜所以這個部分預估什麼時候會開始"},{"start":13048.604,"end":13074.157,"text":"我們從去年下半年以來就積極的進行這個系統的維護測試希望他一上線之後是零缺點的因為罷免的事情也相當的敏感出不得任何的差錯所以到目前為止我們各項測試的工作進行的都相當的順利"},{"start":13075.658,"end":13097.631,"text":"不過這個時候剛好就是一個罷免潮所有的規則都是按照既定的程序在走這個時候我們就沒有去考慮說是不是要把它上限我想等到這一波過了之後我們會審慎的來律定這上限的時間好 這個因為這個選罷法也有修正"},{"start":13105.29,"end":13130.838,"text":"是这段时间选办法也有修正有没有因为选办法的修正这个系统要做因应调整的是有没有啊都有跟着都有跟着好这个那我请教一下哈公职人选举办法第七十六条这次有修正吗近期有修正吗啊就是针对这个第三项哈"},{"start":13131.94,"end":13156.643,"text":"第一項體育人名冊因依規定格式竹籃填詳時填寫填寄體育人國民身份證統一編號及附及地然後呢這裡面提到體育人填寄時應附本人之國民身份證正版面影本這樣的一個修正條文跟這個系統電子系統"},{"start":13158.866,"end":13184.122,"text":"有沒有需要怎麼樣去做沒有沒有影響因為我們的連署系統是必須要用自然人憑證那自然人憑證他就可以取代身份證那所以他不用檢附國民身份證影印本用電子連署的是不用電子連署這個在哪裡有規定電子連署就不用"},{"start":13185.556,"end":13214.57,"text":"條文法例沒有規定喔因為電子連署他本身就是用國民就是用這個志願人憑證因為這個新的修正請中選會在跟內政部這個法是內政部的嘛對不對在跟內政部協調因為寫得很明確喔應付本人之國民身份證正反面"},{"start":13215.889,"end":13242.62,"text":"銀本條文是寫的這麼明確所以不能再跟內政部好不好我們再做確認對再跟內政部因為這法是內政部的執行是你們的好好不好好然後我們看這個公職人選舉罷免法第79條有規定這個選委會說到罷免案提議後應於25日內查對提議的名冊"},{"start":13243.757,"end":13271.905,"text":"有下列情事之一者應以刪除第一款就是不符合第76條剛才有講過第76條好我們看這個還有第二款提議人有第77條第一項身份當然全部有列了六款請問一下這個以現行現行這個選委會地方選委會"},{"start":13273.547,"end":13287.03,"text":"怎么样去去针对这个条文来去做来去查核怎么样去核对用什么方式是用书面的去通知还是怎么样"},{"start":13289.062,"end":13305.077,"text":"我們這個查對是由兩個機關分別就不同的項目來進行查對一個就是當地的這個戶政機關另外一個就是我們的選委會"},{"start":13306.939,"end":13318.067,"text":"那戶政機關跟選委會他們查對的根據都是這個連署人名冊正本在選舉機關副本我們會給一份給這個戶政事務所"},{"start":13322.37,"end":13350.367,"text":"那戶政事務所就是用戶政的系統他們去做查對他查對結果之後不管是發現比如說死亡連署有這種情形的話他都會把這個結果完整的來送還給我們的選務單位選務單位彙整之後才會送到中央選舉委員會來進行最後的審查以現在的相關的這些"},{"start":13351.377,"end":13371.67,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法的規定 副政機關有辦法完全的查對嗎副政機關沒有問題 這都是用電腦去查的好 這個以前可以啊 現在恐怕好 我們看這個公職人員選舉罷免法第77條規定"},{"start":13374.433,"end":13401.553,"text":"現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或公務人員不得為罷免案提議人而這個公務人員的定義是採最廣的是公務人員服務法以前的戶籍資料是有這個職業欄現在的戶籍資料已經很久很久已經刪除了職業欄"},{"start":13403.007,"end":13406.813,"text":"所以從戶籍資料裡面是無法查對無法查對"},{"start":13413.657,"end":13439.855,"text":"連那個公務員都沒有了現在都沒有了現在我們並不是叫戶政事務所根據戶籍資料去查因為戶籍資料現在的內容它是有一些變更所以有關於現役軍人的部分是向國防部去查有嗎有有關於替代役的部分向內政部去查公務人員的部分向人總去查所以向各機關有嗎有有好人總夠不夠"},{"start":13443.446,"end":13467.54,"text":"人總夠不夠人總不是人總指向人總夠不夠還有前續部前續部夠不夠人總跟前續部大概大概夠了吧不夠不夠公務員服務法是很廣的包括公營事業的包括公營事業的非純工非純勞工的"},{"start":13468.96,"end":13481.624,"text":"所以這個部分這個人種也有這個資料人種也有這個資料沒有沒有他沒有沒有這個資料我們再確認一下確認一下好謝謝鄭天才委員的諮詢下一個我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢"},{"start":13510.615,"end":13519.077,"text":"主席 在黨的委員先進 列席的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們中選會李主委李主委有請主委好主委辛苦了謝謝 謝謝委員主席主委 我們稍微輕鬆一下你大學的時候有沒有參加過畢業旅行"},{"start":13535.148,"end":13554.614,"text":"沒有沒有過我們大學的時候呢流行要畢業旅行那通常呢我們畢業旅行的時候呢請看下一頁我們通常呢就會先討論啊什麼時候要去啦去哪裡啊那很重要的呢我們當我們尤其我們要去離島譬如我們要去澎湖我們就要有一個人呢擔任領隊這個領隊很重要因為呢我們去買團體票都是以這個領隊作為代表人"},{"start":13560.014,"end":13576.526,"text":"那結果呢 我們那時候班上40個人本來張三要當領隊 我們要去畢業旅行後來張三有事不能去那我們要換個人那是否民主程序多數決就即可決定結果呢 我們班上有21個人同意換理事當領隊你覺得這樣的程序符合民主原則嗎"},{"start":13580.928,"end":13604.244,"text":"這個各民間團體尤其它不是一個正式的組織我想只要大家有一個共識就是尤其有多數嘛 多數人同意說我們換理事當領隊啦好 但是呢往下看 因為講輕鬆的例子比較好理解來如果排除可能的少數是不是民主呢比如說我們現在這個選辦法去年修法的時候呢有內政委員會在審查"},{"start":13605.265,"end":13617.106,"text":"內政會有這麼多 有十三位有六位是民進黨的委員那麼另外的七位是國民黨 民眾黨跟無黨籍的委員"},{"start":13618.117,"end":13637.918,"text":"那這個時候啊這七個多數呢他們一定多數嘛多數他怎麼表決都會過結果他們排除這六個不讓這六個到參與討論您覺得這六個不見得反對喔但是七個人的意見一樣這六個有可能不同意但是就算通通不同意也不可能推翻多數嘛但是不讓這六個來參與討論這樣算不算民主啊"},{"start":13642.06,"end":13657.783,"text":"民主可不可以排除可能的少數牽涉到立法院的內規運作不變評論但是您認為從一般的社會團體來講不管那個可能的少數他的意見是否跟多數一致是不是都應該讓歡迎大家一起來共同討論"},{"start":13659.178,"end":13670.625,"text":"畢業旅行那個例子我敢講畢業旅行的例子是不是應該這樣子就是班上40個人嘛雖然21人同意說請宗家兵擔任領隊但是另外19個人也可以說那我們還是喜歡那個李靖可以這樣子啦那我們往下看現在來了現在呢我們根據公職人員選舉罷免法第76條他的提議書呢必須要有領銜人跟全體提議人一起送案嘛對不對"},{"start":13687.959,"end":13692.643,"text":"請問這個領先人的重要性是什麼?要買團體保險要偷他來擺嗎?這個領先人是什麼意思?一階段那個領先人"},{"start":13697.489,"end":13710.596,"text":"因為都是有多數包括提議人一階段我們譬如說有4000個人請這個鍾某某當任領銜人就送到我們選委會去嘛是不是那這個領銜人的狀況是什麼對選委會的立場來講的話領銜人就是這個團體的一個代表他負責跟選務機關來做對口"},{"start":13721.801,"end":13739.197,"text":"所以他有個備位嘛對不對有個備位萬一這個人找不到張生找不到理事有這樣的情況嘛那一般來講我們這次的罷免提案是不是都很多找很多有名的人像李喬先生像曹新成先生事實上會請這些人來號召讓很多人認同他一起來參與你認為這個合理嗎"},{"start":13741.769,"end":13762.945,"text":"就是找知名的人當領銜人合法的話我們就尊重合法嘛 就是一般會找領銜人 找知名的領銜人好 那我們往下看了現在問題來了那麼更換領銜人要不要詢問全體呢因為我知道目前的法條第八項規定二分之以上書面同意嘛那我這樣講啦我們有四千個人因為"},{"start":13764.808,"end":13791.34,"text":"張三他來領銜我們第一階段由張三代表我們群體送了給選委會現在張三有事情不能去要換理事那您規定說那就是原來的4000個人你們只要有一半以上的人同意換理事就OK嘛對不對法律是這樣規定是這樣好 那這是細部的操作是不是這個更換過程必須4000個人都問啊你們到底要同不同意換成理事至少要告知嘛"},{"start":13791.994,"end":13821.337,"text":"因為我第一階段我是四千個人中的假設我是之前的一個連署人今天就算是張三不能當要換理事有沒有可能要告知我需不需要法律上一般來講我有參與一個連署原來的領銜人是張三現在張三有事不能換理事那是不是要告訴我說現在要換理事我知道了那如果我同意我就把同意的回函回過去選委會就拿到說有過半數同意換理事是不是這樣子"},{"start":13822.493,"end":13840.46,"text":"法律沒有規定要4000個人都通知沒有法律沒有規定條文上沒有寫但是我說從我們民主的程序上原來這4000個人或者說畢業典禮我們40個人要去參加畢業典禮今天換領隊不管最後我要不要參加第二階段我要不要去"},{"start":13841.519,"end":13850.301,"text":"至少讓我知道現在換領隊吧需不需要那是一個修養的問題啦那是修養的問題不是法律的問題所以選委會認為我們第76號第8項當中並沒有4000個人由張三來領銜然後交到選委會後續的第二階段我們繼續連署換了理事需要"},{"start":13865.191,"end":13880.369,"text":"四千個人中過半數同意如果取得這個過半數的同意要告訴這四千個人如果有過半數同意了我們就可以跟眾人說我們來更換領先人是不是這樣子這個我們管不到管不到另外的那些管不到這些其他的"},{"start":13881.591,"end":13904.564,"text":"我們第一個就是二分之一以上的提議人書面同意而且以一次為限所以如果說四千個人當中有兩千零一個你們拿到同意就不用管那一千九百九十九個他的不同意所以他不知道也沒有影響我們要查對了你們要查對誰"},{"start":13905.624,"end":13931.521,"text":"查對這兩千零一個是否同意嘛但是你們不會去問那一千九百九十九個是不是同意 不需要 不會 不會完全不需要 不會好 來我們最後的結論啦就是說我現在呢要跟我覺得呢這個就是今天我們法律的問題啦我剛剛說從民主的一個原理基本上如果領銜人在第一階段是代表我們全體提議人法律上也允許他做更變更"},{"start":13932.722,"end":13958.038,"text":"那麼既然第一階段我參與的連署人 我知道我們是誰來當領銜今天在繼續進行二階的時候 這個領銜要更換我也同意 多數決 應該過半數同意就OK所以我們根據剛剛那個78條呢 取得過半數同意是可以但是是否應該要讓4000個人都知道我覺得這個法律上的定定啊 為病周詳啊"},{"start":13958.979,"end":13986.23,"text":"主委你覺得我們選辦法如果繼續的完善化讓罷免制度更完善不要鬧人畫餅是不是我們未來在通知第一屆聯署人的時候如果有變更領銜人的情況之下是應該要讓全體都知道我們要變更同意的拿過來我們依法辦理 是否這樣大院如果認為這樣子合適的話經過修法通過我們就拒以辦理好 謝謝主委 謝謝"},{"start":13988.958,"end":13991.902,"text":"好謝謝宗教評委員的質詢下一位我們請王宏規委員質詢好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請"},{"start":14012.726,"end":14038.997,"text":"主委好 主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為"},{"start":14040.73,"end":14066.553,"text":"這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為"},{"start":14067.766,"end":14091.078,"text":"我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧"},{"start":14093.02,"end":14098.821,"text":"結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響"},{"start":14118.025,"end":14136.736,"text":"所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署"},{"start":14144.005,"end":14169.705,"text":"公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容"},{"start":14171.426,"end":14190.302,"text":"中选会有没有告发中选会也是一致的都会告发但是这次中选会最大的不同是过去所有的告发有关联署告发都是在联署结束之后"},{"start":14191.863,"end":14211.768,"text":"來予以告罰 都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現 因為最後經過查對有死人連署 有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰"},{"start":14213.274,"end":14234.87,"text":"不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中"},{"start":14235.791,"end":14255.865,"text":"而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎"},{"start":14259.793,"end":14276.233,"text":"我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点"},{"start":14276.493,"end":14280.934,"text":"第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了"},{"start":14294.838,"end":14299.221,"text":"那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法"},{"start":14313.172,"end":14328.258,"text":"過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點"},{"start":14331.079,"end":14340.13,"text":"我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免"},{"start":14350.882,"end":14367.494,"text":"或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了"},{"start":14368.274,"end":14385.254,"text":"那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後"},{"start":14386.115,"end":14396.126,"text":"後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外請教一下這個領銜人"},{"start":14401.052,"end":14429.939,"text":"的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個領銜人呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團"},{"start":14431.019,"end":14457.969,"text":"但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊"},{"start":14461.736,"end":14488.528,"text":"現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名"},{"start":14491.309,"end":14494.477,"text":"公民選民的意願合理嗎"},{"start":14495.734,"end":14520.623,"text":"就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度"},{"start":14521.621,"end":14529.652,"text":"有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎"},{"start":14531.024,"end":14557.338,"text":"所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎"},{"start":14559.146,"end":14574.377,"text":"我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方"},{"start":14575.097,"end":14599.856,"text":"其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長"},{"start":14600.616,"end":14625.677,"text":"我是說過去不要珍惜而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊都是非常良善的建議我感覺得到但是我也是一樣良善所以我們在選罷罰裡面該做修正"},{"start":14628.479,"end":14648.925,"text":"我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛對不對我一樣是良善的態度但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話沒有社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你就靠慢慢來就好慢慢來剛發生的時候"},{"start":14656.428,"end":14672.14,"text":"這個應該也要有一致的規定就要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治"},{"start":14679.798,"end":14696.836,"text":"什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這個這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果謝謝威委員的諮詢下一位我們請吳立華委員諮詢"},{"start":14713.184,"end":14715.265,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委李主委有請主委好這一次罷免行動有兩位原住民立委被提議罷免那這兩位原住民立委的聯署書是送到台北市的選委會是"},{"start":14740.111,"end":14766.296,"text":"那在這個當中其實我們也看得到大家做的一個統計的數據那以我來講雖然死亡連署加補件高達202位那非原住民來連署我的高達170多位那不合格件數高達1500多位但是虛假的情勢是零"},{"start":14767.984,"end":14788.631,"text":"那台北市選委會他針對這麼大量的不合格他有沒有去發出查對單查詢單我的部分是零那我們不得而知他是怎麼做選擇做判斷但是至少我們可以看到台北市選委會他並沒有原住民鄉區"},{"start":14790.231,"end":14810.722,"text":"他的原住民落籍的人口數也不多但是為什麼兩個原住民立委的罷免的連署是由台北市選委會來負責那這個原因其實也沒有被交代過我也不得而知但是我要講的重點是"},{"start":14812.185,"end":14825.783,"text":"這個就是歸咎於沒有選區劃分原住民的立委他服務的是全國的選區每一個縣市都有原住民落籍"},{"start":14826.624,"end":14841.96,"text":"那這件事情其實很困擾那我曾經就這個選區劃分你應該很清楚我之前在內政委員會我質詢不下十次我常常就是問這一些原住民選制的問題"},{"start":14843.281,"end":14857.476,"text":"包括被罷免之後原住民是比照複數選區的議員要超過二分之一不得不選這個我過去上一屆也都質詢過很多次那我很關心就是選區劃分為什麼"},{"start":14860.058,"end":14880.456,"text":"這是全體我不敢講百分之一百但是至少百分之九十的原住民族人他們非常非常期待為什麼我們原住民的立委要服務那麼大我久久才被服務到一次我也不知道要去哪裡找立委我不能常常看到他"},{"start":14881.477,"end":14887.702,"text":"所以這個部分我很關心那我過去呢去年上一屆我問過中選會委員的五個提名人問他們對這件事情的看法我也問過您那我去年12月我問過內政部長劉世芳部長我問他說原住民的選區一定要全國嗎"},{"start":14905.235,"end":14921.587,"text":"選區劃分是誰的權責那部長當時說是中選會來定定我說我們的選務機關嗎劉部長很肯定的說是所以我想請教一下主委這個選區劃分到底行不行好簡單回答好嗎謝謝"},{"start":14930.704,"end":14944.335,"text":"報告委員那目前的選罷法並沒有針對這個原住民選區在劃分為單一選區有規範那這部分如果有共識的話是要透過修法來做處理修哪個法哪一條選罷法選罷法哪一條"},{"start":14948.667,"end":14975.758,"text":"選罷法第35條那另外在憲法的部分以往也有討論就是說憲法增修條文第4條有規定就是我們平地原住民跟山地原住民的立法委員各三人那憲法也沒有一個依據就是比照這個區域立法委員選舉是以單一選區方式來辦理那以前立委一直都是單一選區嗎"},{"start":14977.718,"end":14998.66,"text":"是在修憲之後所以為什麼原住民不行所以剛才跟委員報告就是說有涉及到憲法還有我們選法全體的族人我不敢講100%至少90%都非常樂見我們原住民的立委也要單一選區也要做選區劃分那為什麼我們"},{"start":14999.841,"end":15014.732,"text":"要像這樣子服務全國其實我要講這個的意思是說好我們來看我過去我也有質詢過很多次那關於這個部分或者是我們因為是比照複數"},{"start":15016.093,"end":15040.474,"text":"所以呢 過去要達到二分之一出缺才得以補選所以呢 我過去也有版本我要講的是說 我的版本也沒被排進來明天 有一個人的版本要進副二讀要做立法院長主持的協商那 這個地方 他是這麼修他直接在第七十條修 怎麼修呢就直接把原住民立法委員加進去"},{"start":15043.026,"end":15069.866,"text":"僅僅修補選只做半套因為他沒有去連動修罷免的部分選區劃分的部分那他會變成怎麼樣我想就算強行表決他未來也會面對很多問題像是我們複數選區第一個就是票票不等值嘛他在罷免的時候會遇到票票不等值嘛因為我們看這個圖選舉的時候是一人投一張票"},{"start":15071.187,"end":15074.568,"text":"可是罷免的時候我們一個人可以罷三個人因為這個多出來的兩張票就變成是多數罷零少數那遇到補選的時候一樣票票不等值因為我們是複數選區因為選舉的時候全部的選民投出三個人可是補選的時候全部的選民投一個人"},{"start":15096.417,"end":15113.229,"text":"所以這個部分如果沒有連動的去考慮那像我的版本我是說英設補選當選門檻超過被罷免人當初得票數確保補選者的民意基礎大於被罷免人至少他去解決民意基礎不同的問題那當然"},{"start":15115.39,"end":15130.587,"text":"在二月的時候 前中選會主委也是憲政學者陳英賢他有特別去提醒說選罷法的第75條第二款全國不分區不適用罷免的規定嘛但是被排除這個精神的像原住民立委"},{"start":15131.368,"end":15148.574,"text":"他其實是原住民選擇是介於區域跟不分區之間而他的全國性質是接近全國不分區所以呢他顯然是為了顧及原住民的特殊性必須別有安排才能保障原住民的權益但是現在"},{"start":15149.574,"end":15172.206,"text":"把這兩者罷免混為一談破壞了原來憲政設計的深思熟慮因此他建議於今之際或許只能寄望公民團體將六名原住民立委全部罷免然後全部一人一票重新選舉否則他認為這個滋生的疑慮未來要提請憲法法庭解釋以維護權益"},{"start":15174.967,"end":15190.736,"text":"那這樣好啦那議員的複數選區的罷免我就光講十幾個議員你罷掉一席雖然不能補選至少他有十幾十分之一但是你罷掉原住民一個不得補選是三分之一"},{"start":15191.556,"end":15217.421,"text":"他讲到底我要讲的是说就是选区划分的问题那我希望说这个部分我们希望中选会也好内政部也好一定要去针对这个部分将联动的复数选区的罢免选区的划分一并检讨为免造成未来宪政的不安定我举个例子好了这一次假设罢免成功"},{"start":15219.264,"end":15247.652,"text":"我們的修法只修只要出缺就得以補選那好啊未來每一屆當選的其中兩個立委就去罷掉另外一個立委我們就每一屆上演這個戲碼就好了所以我想這個部分作為選政機關也好選務機關也好不可以讓原住民的立委原住民族人的參政權"},{"start":15248.993,"end":15266.365,"text":"一直被大家漠視我很高興雖然我可能有機會被罷免但是我很高興至少求仁得仁心安理得至少這一次很積極的來處理這一件但是你不能做半套啊你選區花費也要處理啊"},{"start":15267.545,"end":15283.248,"text":"我覺得這個連動到的都要修都要把它處理好因為個人被罷免是小事啊制度是千秋原住民的權益是千秋中華民國的憲政體制是千秋主委可以嗎我們要積極啊那我也希望到我的辦公室來跟我做說明好不好這整個未來衍生的問題可以嗎"},{"start":15292.805,"end":15297.926,"text":"好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員的諮詢下一個我們請沈柏洋委員諮詢謝謝主席有請主委謝謝李主委有請委員好"},{"start":15321.409,"end":15331.776,"text":"主委辛苦了今天一整天我看很多問題都是重複不是也是沒辦法的事情不是每個人都會去聽前面的人講了什麼我覺得剛剛吳委員的這一個其實我認為是蠻重要的"},{"start":15336.158,"end":15351.844,"text":"有時候我們常常經負惡毒的狀況之下很多東西會沒有配套措施所以這個部分我們當然還是會極力地再來去爭取那我今天想要問的比較偏向是這一個就是說我們現在罷免的這一個干擾的太陽其實非常多那我們有稍微整理了一下就是說這一個"},{"start":15354.666,"end":15375.022,"text":"先往後面就是說有一些行政上的干擾有場地的干涉然後也有一些立委的施壓甚至在質詢的時候施壓但我覺得跟中選會比較有關的應該是右上角因為其他的部分很多可能它是屬於這一個內政部的權責那這個選委不公比如說這個很短的時間要求要寄回查詢單或者說以後有可能會"},{"start":15375.522,"end":15398.055,"text":"推延的審查時間或者說不當的介入審查程序我覺得這幾件事情可能都需要有關注那這個部分我就想說也不用主委特別回答我只是想說反正他一樣就擺在那邊我們可能要特別注意那我今天比較想問的是兩個問題就好因為我只有五分鐘第一個就是這一次花蓮他們在這一個收的過程當中他們只有五個人在點"},{"start":15399.016,"end":15423.417,"text":"那這五個人在點 我看也不是他們自己的問題 因為他們其實應該可以找更多人有些人有壓力 有壓力不敢來點 那這樣也沒有辦法所以他只有五個人來點 那點的這個時間稍微比較長一點點了可能有超過十 十二個小時那他們在點的這個過程當中呢 我們就發現 因為我們的法條有一個選罷法八十條它規定說 未依規定格式提出者應不予受理"},{"start":15424.238,"end":15448.55,"text":"那這個時候就會有點疑惑比如說像我們之前花蓮不是格式有問題嗎跑掉了嘛所以當你格式出現問題的時候他當場可以說那這一張不可以或什麼等等之類的但有時候會有疑義比如說到底縮小放大啦或者說線的粗細啦那這種格式就這兩個字位一規定格式那個格式的解釋是當場他就要解釋然後當場做決定"},{"start":15450.171,"end":15471.323,"text":"還是說他要收下來之後然後開會討論因為我們現場問的時候他們就說他們要開會一下但問題是收的時間就那一天那如果說他當場又要開會那開會假如他那天已經點了12個小時他又要開會這個時間就拉得更長所以我在想說因為現在陸續都一直有在送件嘛中選會是不是有可能要給地方選委會一個比較統一的一個指導"},{"start":15473.919,"end":15501.562,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這一次有關於不管是這個提案的連署或者是這個連署名冊的查對我們的標準是定則是夠周延的一共有三套三個辦法來提供給地方選委會來作為參考所以我說是一套標準一體適用這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":15502.743,"end":15521.792,"text":"當然在實務的運作上有時候有時候會發生就是當事人跟我們的選務工作人員大家意見相左的情況比如說包括這一次的這個花蓮當然花蓮跟台中這兩個地方都發生了一些這個認知的差距"},{"start":15522.532,"end":15533.184,"text":"但是經過溝通之後總是有一個辦法在那個地方作為一個標準經過溝通之後這兩個地方的問題都解決了我們認為這也是因為我們的這個辦法有夠周延"},{"start":15537.529,"end":15557.757,"text":"而且中央跟地方之間保持密切的一個聯繫中央可以做行政的指導所以這些問題應該到目前為止除了花蓮以及台中之外其他地方都相當的平順"},{"start":15558.497,"end":15580.815,"text":"對 因為我在想說就是這樣因為我們現在目前像這個要去看有沒有偽造啦居住期間的問題我看總共有十三十四個嘛 對不對這就是就是到時候會被剔除的這些聯署書啊這個實質的審查不可能在當場發生嘛當場只能看這個就是未依規定格式那未依規定格式目前來講我們當然就是其實我們辦公室也有發函給中選會幾次嘛 對不對然後就是說"},{"start":15581.515,"end":15595.72,"text":"這個格式到底要怎麼認定然後到時候可能讓他們這些團體他們可以用公文可以去說這可能是中學會相關的解釋只是說當時就是說像剛剛主委有提到當時可能就是雙方溝通然後可能這個領銜人在那邊他們也認為說確實啦這個格式有問題所以這一張可能不能用"},{"start":15599.981,"end":15626.623,"text":"但是因為領銜人的代表性就像剛剛嘉賓委員有提到的他是一個代表送件但是他到底有沒有被這個所有的人授權說他可以去同意或不同意這個格式的問題我覺得這有法律上的疑義啦所以這個當然我覺得在未來尤其是就是這一條未依規定格式那個格式的那個解釋如果能夠更清楚的話那就可以讓這樣的紛爭可能會變得更少我有這樣的建議那接下來因為有時間的關係我再快速問下一個就是"},{"start":15629.645,"end":15656.737,"text":"這個南投的這一件事情就是說因為南投他比較早他們是議員的罷免案他們很早就送了那我有看到就是說他們在第一階段的死亡連署是零就是完全沒有但是因為這一次因為基隆的這個事件讓我們看到就是說這個死亡的連署有可能是戶政人員在一開始或者民政的人員一開始幫忙剔除發生這樣的一個醜聞嘛所以我想問一下因為4月14號的時候南投議員被罷免的已經送件了"},{"start":15657.077,"end":15680.572,"text":"那離現在已經也查對的時間應該完成了那他們在第二階段的這個死亡的數字現在出來了嗎因為我前陣子發公文問好像南投這個的地方的委員會他們還沒有一個回沒有一個給我們數字上的回應是 這點請委員能夠諒解就是以前我們有關於委員所知的部分都會是在查對的結果經過中選會委員會認定"},{"start":15684.314,"end":15708.322,"text":"認定了之後我們就會隨著委員會紀錄公佈認定了之後雖然紀錄還沒有公佈但是只要是立法委員基於問政的需求來函要所知我們也都會配合目前還沒有因為地方選委會應該審查期間完了但是還在中選會認定的過程當中有一件已經是送過來了那我們就在等待"},{"start":15709.002,"end":15737.837,"text":"那最後一個就快速的就是公投這件事情因為公投現在已經被提了四個案件光是立法院這邊我剛剛有聽前面的質詢已經有人問就是你有回答到到底算不算重大政策的這個創制跟覆決啦這是中選會要去認定的啦那我只提醒一件事情就好就是說因為他們不管是反戒嚴還是反這個廢死這一個他們今天那個廢死跟戒嚴的狀態在台灣不存在嘛所以我有在想一件事情就是中選會有沒有機會如果說到最後這件事情真的發生的話如果今天再不能"},{"start":15738.277,"end":15761.287,"text":"按照法條審議這是一件事到底能不能審議這是一個爭執另外一個就是我們有沒有可能去提起確認之訴因為我認為說在這樣的一個狀況之下如果說狀態本身不存在那你要怎麼去提起這樣的一個公投這個因為時間的關係今天沒有辦法繼續詢問但我們之後可能會針對因為公投在禮拜五的時候就要來看起來他們就要闖關了那我覺得接下來中選會就會遇到這樣的事情"},{"start":15761.587,"end":15784.275,"text":"中選會一定會做成決定那至於司法的認定的問題中選會不是適格的原告了對 當然當然當然但是我認為說其實某種程度上面我們必須要有一個確認之訴不然的話這件事情其實會變得非常奇怪好 那就先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝沈博洋委員下一位我們請洪孟楷委員質詢洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":15795.184,"end":15796.714,"text":"我們請主委李主委有請"},{"start":15803.737,"end":15824.672,"text":"主委好 主委好 主委我想請教一個很實際的事情選戰期間假如有候選人把執政黨或在野黨的主席肖像合成到自己的競選廣告旗幟並且把它放置在各個看得到的公共場合上面讓民眾誤以為這個人是執政黨或在野黨支持的候選人這樣的做法你認為合不合法 有沒有誤導選民的疑慮"},{"start":15827.398,"end":15855.853,"text":"是否誤導選民在看個人他的感受這個我們就沒有辦法去做認定什麼叫個人的感受什麼叫沒有辦法去認定當一個單一選區的時候執政黨支持的候選人就只有一位他也只授權那一位的候選人在他的席次上出現那其他人使用的話就是混淆其他民眾這麼簡單的事情會有什麼好認定有什麼不是他個人的感覺這個效果有時候會正向的有時候會是反向的"},{"start":15855.953,"end":15880.078,"text":"有時候是正向有時候是反向中選會不是要指導它正向或反向中選會是要確保選舉能夠用公平的方式來進行中選會的存在就是要避免我們其他威權的國家用民主的手段顛覆民主你怎麼跟我說大家要怎麼認定我為什麼很重視這件事情因為包含在俄羅斯他們的執政黨多次利用這樣子的方式來去混淆民主陣營的在選票上面的這個表現"},{"start":15881.198,"end":15900.584,"text":"這在所有在極權國家裡面還有一點選舉制度想要去濫用想要去操作的話就用這種的方式我過去不斷的在提醒這件事情就是因為它已經在我們多次的選舉出現從縣市議員到立法委員的選舉而這一些選舉人的後面的背景包含跟統治黨等等都有關係我也具體 具名"},{"start":15901.604,"end":15915.402,"text":"把這些相關的資訊給中選會 給入委會結果要處理的竟然是入委會而不是中選會我們不是支持或反對哪一個候選人我們要確保的是這個制度能夠去公平的去做所以我們有提出這個第50條第52條公職連連選罷法第52條的這個修正草案裡面就是在針對這個部分嘛"},{"start":15919.767,"end":15946.713,"text":"那你剛剛提說這涉及政黨你們還有回文喔說這是涉及政黨會選人之間的自主事項肖像權可以用民法處理這是你們給我們的這個辦公室的回覆那我就回想到有在野黨的這些委員有說包含選罷法我們可以等到這個選舉完結束之後選罷法結束之後我們再用民法再去做我們再用相關的法案再去做選舉都結束之後還有辦法這樣做嗎"},{"start":15948.602,"end":15970.93,"text":"這樣的選舉還有什麼公平性可言所以我必須要回復之前中選會給我們的回函這個不是單純的肖像權的問題這不是個人的問題這個是選舉的公平公正的這個基本的這個架構中選會有責任要管可是在我們之前提出的修法法案你們跟我們說這樣子是這個是這個這個交給這個司法機構都選完了是要怎麼交給司法機構"},{"start":15972.981,"end":15990.186,"text":"所以我是希望說類似這樣子的法案我們之前有提出來就是說這個具體的這種不符合規制的文宣品它必須要連續罰你不是要把誰你不是要做這個刑法的處置而是要說在制度上面來防範這樣的做法"},{"start":15990.486,"end":16007.692,"text":"我們不是說因為他這樣子違反選辦法所以我們必須要給他這個人身自由給他限制不是這樣子的而是說包含罰金罰則包含第一時間發生這種錯假亂訊息的時候能夠有一個機制讓這些行政機關能夠把這樣子的危害降到最低"},{"start":16008.152,"end":16037.296,"text":"我們講的是制度我們講的是機制而不是法律上面說要怎麼樣去懲罰那一個人沒有那是交給刑事交給司法我們講的是說制度上面要怎麼樣去更改所以上一次的選包括在國會的選單一選區的時候我們就看到不只是在嘉義 雲林 高雄整個南部地區有大量的律師用這種混淆的方式不管是用執政黨的這個肖像來去營造說他是做執政黨支持的候選人來去做分化的這種做法混淆選民的做法"},{"start":16037.976,"end":16061.984,"text":"不斷的在存在著而且我們還沒有方法去改變我想請問主委有什麼建議這樣子有這樣的這種制度上面我們可以怎麼去做這種現象固然是不好但是它的不好的程度到底是到違反需要用刑事來處置行政的管理主委我剛才從頭到尾有講到用刑事上面嗎對"},{"start":16062.904,"end":16092.144,"text":"我從頭到尾都在講制度怎麼樣去避免所以我想說我現在在問說不是在這種形式上面而是說包含在罰則罰金上面怕我們不要我就說我們不需要做限制自由限制自由是最最極端的做法來做限制自由在選戰期間限制任何人的自由都會影響到選戰的公平性行政的管理那這樣我也講的是行政的管理對這個地方是那這個行政的管理照現有的選罷法也許根據跟這個中選會有關的部分就是它這個廣告物的設置"},{"start":16093.645,"end":16116.267,"text":"廣告物的設置是否有違反相關法令的規定有的話我們要去處理的即使地方的選務機關管不到也許是地方政府應該要管的這個責任大家要釐清至於委員最關心的這一點老實說我不敢正面的去回答你就是說他用一個"},{"start":16117.749,"end":16134.049,"text":"不應該是放在那邊的這個肖像讓選民造成錯誤 印象的錯亂影響到他的選舉的投票那這一點到底是要去如何的管制中選會能不能夠管到這一點"},{"start":16135.379,"end":16159.633,"text":"容我 容我沒關係 那麻煩就是做一些研究我們來避免這樣的說法日本很清楚的黨首的這個肖像在哪個黨員 在哪些支持者上面都有很嚴格的規定因為他要確保好不好 拜託一下就是要趕快因為馬上接下來我們台灣會面臨很多場的不同的選舉我們希望他的公平性不是給執政黨而已給自衛黨也都要有公平性這是我們希望做到的好不好 謝謝"},{"start":16162.377,"end":16190.08,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員現在我們請陳佩玉委員質詢陳佩玉委員 陳佩玉委員不在丁薛忠委員改書面最後我們請葉元之委員質詢葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在好 謝謝登記發言委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢 詢答結束王美惠委員 高金素美委員翁曉琳委員 丁薛忠委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}