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報告委員會"},{"start":1843.796,"end":1862.151,"text":"報告完後我們繼續繼續開會現在請議事人員宣讀今日議程也拜託各位媒體帥哥美女們給我們開會好不好這是能夠退到你們的席位好不好不要圍在總裁旁邊拜託拜託我們請議事人員幫忙這個維持持續謝謝"},{"start":1869.872,"end":1895.229,"text":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲中央銀行楊總裁金融國家發展委員會劉竹任委員晉卿勞動部洪部長申翰權序部司部長能潔就我國如何要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金瓜湖四大基金等所扮演的角色為何進行專庭報告並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1900.333,"end":1921.226,"text":"好這個拜託我們請議事委員維持我們持續請那個媒體的帥哥民運們我們是不是回到你們的位置上我們要開會了現在介紹原例介紹在場的委員與政府的官員我們首先介紹我們今天的"},{"start":1927.318,"end":1943.5,"text":"中央銀行總裁 楊金龍總裁 業務局的謝局長 外匯局的蔡局長經濟研究處的吳處長 秘書處的梁處長 行政院主計總處的陳主計長"},{"start":1947.216,"end":1974.697,"text":"基金預算處的潘處長財政部阮政務次長因為莊部長出國去請假國務署陳署長護稅署宋署長官務署潘署長國務財政署的曾署長財政資訊中心張主任國發會的高副主委"},{"start":1976.498,"end":2003.746,"text":"經濟發展處的邱處長行政院國發基金管理委員會的施副執行秘書下午是葉副執行秘書來出席勞動部李政務次長勞動基金運用局蘇局長全訓部張政務次長公務人員退服基金管理局陳局長"},{"start":2006.973,"end":2021.143,"text":"經理安排邀請了行政院主席總署主席長陳主席長蜀芝財政部的部長莊翠雲中央銀行總裁楊金榮國安會主委劉敬欽勞動部部長"},{"start":2024.565,"end":2040.591,"text":"洪森翰 全巡部司部長就如果要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金如四大基金等所扮演的角色如何"},{"start":2042.336,"end":2063.366,"text":"進行專題報告因為今天這個題目這個央行的角色比較吃重我們請央行的總裁先報告然後其他每個部會等一下每一個相關的部會我們報告兩分鐘央行總裁這邊時間你自己掌握我們盡量簡短請"},{"start":2076.292,"end":2097.338,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生今天呈邀前來貴委員會報告我國如果要設立國家主權基金專銀行與政府相關基金如世大基金等所扮演的角色為何專題自感榮幸以下僅就本行業務相關部門提出報告 敬請會事指教"},{"start":2099.287,"end":2112.233,"text":"1基於主權基金的投資目的操作原則及投資標的均與外匯存底不同他國或以專法或以公司法規範主權基金管理機構之設立及運作"},{"start":2116.062,"end":2126.853,"text":"請翻開第二頁二央行對我國設立國家主權基金向來持正面態度主張一定立專法設立獨立的專責之主權基金管理機構"},{"start":2133.612,"end":2151.431,"text":"第三,我國若成立國家主權基金,建立定立專法,由政府權而出資,設立具獨立法人資格的專業管理機構,且明定該機構的營運目標,並於專法制定完善的治理及監理架構,"},{"start":2152.592,"end":2180.98,"text":"使该机构的董事会能确保营运目标与政府政策目标一致并以市场化薪资延展国际专业人才强化该专业管理机构的经营能力第四 三 我国主权基金管理机构之设立资本及其投资资金来源可借鉴亚洲邻近国家的经验为不宜由外汇存抵直接无偿拨用"},{"start":2182.281,"end":2208.022,"text":"第五頁中上央行對於政府成立主權基金持正向態度建立先定立專法設立獨立專責之主權基金管理機構其設立資本及其投資資金來源可借盡亞洲鄰近國家經驗為不宜由外存體直接無償購用以上謝謝各位"},{"start":2212.679,"end":2217.226,"text":"謝謝楊總裁精簡的報告我們下一位請總署的主席長在兩分鐘內報告請按下時間"},{"start":2228.679,"end":2243.841,"text":"主席 各位委員先生女士 大家好那今天應邀來報告我國設立國家主權基金中央銀行以政府世納基金扮演的角色提出報告那這個部分基金的主權基金是由"},{"start":2244.321,"end":2261.193,"text":"國家政府來設立基金的來源主要是國家財政的盈餘還有一個相關的一個政府退休的一個基金那用以長期策略性的投資那國際上主要是主權基金有新加坡挪威和韓國那透過多元投資來獲取長期的利益"},{"start":2261.853,"end":2288.993,"text":"中央銀行的職權主要任務是審度國內經濟金融的動態採行貨幣政策回復國內物價按幣值的穩定還有協助金融的一個安定和經濟的一個發展所以本身在政府世納基金和其投資運用的情形政府世納基金裡面它主要是分別由勞動部和考試院海權序部代管理或者是由勞動部和勞工局"},{"start":2289.213,"end":2311.955,"text":"保業作業基金和中華股份有一線公司所收的民眾存款那四大基金目的是提供勞工和公務人員一個退休的生活保障所以為了要獲取長期穩定收益的目標辦理投資的業務所以勞保基金這個部分勞動局是來擬定資產分配和運用的一個計畫所以今年平均的收益是6.88"},{"start":2313.476,"end":2340.942,"text":"那我國成立國家主權基金的應該取得共識並訂定專法所以主權基金目的在創造更多的財富所以我們長期可提升投資運用的效益但是如果景氣下滑同時面對虧損和擴大的風險所以我們這個部分呢應該取得社會的共識訂定專法建立風險管控的機制和完成的治理架構公開透明有效監督管理基金的一個投資運用以上"},{"start":2342.442,"end":2358.083,"text":"請各位委員先生指教好 謝謝我們現在介紹這場有林德福委員好 現在請財政部的阮次長做總理報告6分鐘"},{"start":2367.216,"end":2391.436,"text":"主席 各位委員先進大家早今天貴委員會邀請相關部會就如果我國要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金所扮演的角色為何提出專案提報告本部請檢要報告如下 敬請指教依據美國等國透過國際貨幣基金組織提出倡議的聖地雅各原則"},{"start":2392.476,"end":2411.316,"text":"將主權基金定義為政府基於總體經濟的特殊目的發起並持有投資基金採取包括投資國外金融資產之各種投資策略投資管理資產以求達成財務目標另外IMF定義"},{"start":2412.037,"end":2434.544,"text":"主權基金為政府所擁有或控制之特殊用途基金或機構以原油、天然氣等能源收入、財政盈餘、預算編列、外匯準備以民營化收入或外來援助等作為資金來源進行海內外投資活動成立主權基金涉及設立目的、制定專法"},{"start":2435.944,"end":2448.952,"text":"監督管理機制 資金來源 主管機關等面向首先須擬各界的共識 審慎考量成立之必要性依照國發會跨部會的言商"},{"start":2449.751,"end":2478.184,"text":"的初步結論 儲錢基金設立的目的有其策略性及特殊性的要求涉及整合各界意見及拟據社會共識且需制定專法調整法制 將根據進行研議成立儲錢基金除需就基金的規模投入財源等審慎規劃之外更需要有掌握產業趨勢金融市場投資與風險管理等專業未來本部將配合行政院及責任之主管"},{"start":2480.341,"end":2481.802,"text":"機關參與政策研議 以上報告 進行執照 謝謝"},{"start":2502.297,"end":2516.488,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進國防會就本會的報告簡要的說明有關於主權基金的定義跟國際的運作概況請大家參閱資料然後第二個我們就說明本會其實奉前"},{"start":2517.528,"end":2539.768,"text":"行政院的指示呢在2023年10月跟11月有邀集相關部會來討論主權基金的這個設置的情況那我有三點結論第一個呢事實上是國內在四大基金還有國發基金已經有類主權基金的機制第二呢是如果四大基金跟國發基金要轉型為主權基金的話"},{"start":2541.169,"end":2565.742,"text":"必須要就現有的這些法規進行修正第三是主權基金的收益波動性較大應該先凝聚社會共識再拒以執行我想卓院長在日前已經表示恆濁現在的國家的財力產業還有國際情勢已經具備主權基金成立的條件然後我們國盼會認為如果主權基金要成立需要考慮四個議題第一個是要確立"},{"start":2569.223,"end":2595.638,"text":"設立的目的是屬於財務型的還是策略型的第二個是資金的規模也應該要確保範圍及財源來兼顧財政的紀律跟穩健的經營第三個主權基金需要仰賴專業管理來確保投資收益所以我們認為必須要建立專業的管理機制所以事實上目前的主權基金的國家韓國挪威等都有專法來設立所以我們認為如果要"},{"start":2598.239,"end":2621.944,"text":"主權基金成立的時候 應制定專法 設立專責主管機關 明定主權基金的設立的目的 資金來源完善治理跟監理機制 以確保主權基金的公開透明並符合政策的目標 以上報告好 謝謝國務卿的高福祝會的進展報告下一位是勞動部的李政務次長 請"},{"start":2631.338,"end":2647.21,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早感謝各位貴文會邀請本部向各位進行我國如果要設立國家主權基金中央銀行跟政府相關基金如四大基金扮演角色為何做專題報告請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2647.89,"end":2666.557,"text":"那關於主權基金的定義跟特性前面相關部會有相關說明本部呢在書面報告也有相關的說明那就不再贅述以下僅就本部所管理的新制與舊制勞工退休基金跟勞保基金資金來源、制度特性還有法規規範規定向各位來做報告"},{"start":2669.358,"end":2696.238,"text":"第一有關新制勞工退休金是依照勞工退休金條例來成立是一種確定提撥制每一個勞工都有專屬的退休金帳戶那雇主呢要依勞工薪資每月按月提撥至少6%退休金的金額到勞工的個人帳戶那麼勞工也可以自願提撥1到6%的退休金所以新制退休金的基金來源是勞工雇主提繳退休金"},{"start":2697.498,"end":2717.579,"text":"請翻次頁就職勞工退休金是依照勞基法還有勞工退休金準備金提撥管理辦法成立主要是雇主依勞工薪資總額的2%到15%的範圍按月提繳退休準備金形成勞工退休金資金主要來源是雇主"},{"start":2719.591,"end":2739.482,"text":"請看下一段那勞保基金主要是依勞保條例設立依法是勞僱政府三方分別負擔保費的兩層七層跟一層雖然有一層是不由政府來撥付但主要的來源還是僱主跟勞工那近年呢政府雖然已經有"},{"start":2741.423,"end":2767.797,"text":"透過預算來撥補勞保基金減緩財務的壓力但是呢原則上還仍然不是政府出資成立的基金那綜合以上主權基金是國家所有但新制就制退休金跟勞保基金是來自雇主勞工不是國家所有他的目的主要是為了保障勞工退休生活跟經濟安全跟主權基金以國家投資目的不同"},{"start":2769.138,"end":2794.214,"text":"為維護勞保基金新舊勞工退休金的穩定運作保障勞工的權益本部認為這三個基金不應該作為主權基金的主要來源以上好 謝謝所以各位聽清楚喔這個勞動部的勞退新舊制勞退以及勞保他們認為不適宜拿出來當主權基金的一個資金來源"},{"start":2796.516,"end":2799.559,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早"},{"start":2818.267,"end":2838.773,"text":"這次的專題報告本部有提出書面報告請各位委員參考那在這裡我有三點口頭的這個扼要的說明那第一點是按照現行的退伏法規以及公務員退休撫恤基金管理條例的相關規定"},{"start":2840.57,"end":2867.889,"text":"本部所屬的退伏基金管理局是以受託人的身份來管理退伏基金那基金所有權的部分是屬於全體參加基金的人所有因此基金的運用就必須要兼顧到安全性、收益性以及流動性以保障退休軍公教同仁的退休輔具的權益那第二點"},{"start":2870.575,"end":2898.374,"text":"就是退府基金等等的相關的政府基金其實它設立都有不同的目的基於各政府基金的投資屬性投資政策以及相關給付義務的不同所以這個案子一定會涉及到各政府基金的運作模式的整體規劃考量以及相關法令的修改所以必須要審慎的去做通盤的考量第三點基金管理局"},{"start":2899.415,"end":2917.111,"text":"是受託管理基金的這個身份所以我們目前針對他的投資策略資產配置以及適用的範圍都定有嚴謹的作業規範並且具以嚴格來遵循所以今天討論到的這個案子"},{"start":2919.363,"end":2945.991,"text":"我們會認為會涉及到各政府基金的整體運作模式以及相關法令的修改以及參加這個基金人員的權益等等的通盤考量所以如果社會有共識那政府的政策方向也很明確那退伏基金在保障我們的公共交通人員權益的前提之下我們就配合政策來辦理 以上"},{"start":2947.732,"end":2967.782,"text":"你把這個講清楚喔 勞動部講得很清楚你們贊不贊成退府基金拿出來當作國家主權基金的基金賴元勞動部是反對 你們贊不贊成講清楚 你這個話講不清楚跟委員報告"},{"start":2971.462,"end":2997.633,"text":"看整個制度的設計啦因為我們退伏基金當然是希望對我們的參加人創造他最大的權益那如果這個機制的設計可以穩健的讓我們多了一個這個等於是投資的管道在安全的前提之下這個算不算國家的錢啊這個算不算國家的錢算不算國家的錢"},{"start":3002.489,"end":3028.145,"text":"我剛剛已經報告了 這個是所有參加基金的人的所以一定要確保我們的這個要講跟沒有講一樣嘛 謝謝謝謝好 報告五位 現在所有的部會所長都已經報告完畢了我們現在開始詢答 做以下的宣布還有剛才還沒有介紹 我們顏光和文雲也到場"},{"start":3032.99,"end":3050.742,"text":"現在開始審討作為現在宣布每位出席委員發言時間8分鐘不要時間延長2分鐘列席委員4分鐘上午10點截止發言登記現在按照登記順序請登記地位的林德武委員咨詢請"},{"start":3065.245,"end":3076.758,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席與會各部會首長還有在座的媒體記者女士先生本院的同仁是不是來請這個楊總裁來 總裁請"},{"start":3092.881,"end":3114.359,"text":"林委員早總裁你好總裁我想請教因為三個月底外貿協會董事長黃志荒在中央廣播電台與東吳大學商學院舉辦的論壇演講時就表示川普2.0為了重建整個世界的秩序以關稅為戰術"},{"start":3117.435,"end":3136.993,"text":"打破現有整個貿易秩序後續會以匯率為戰略來建立新的秩序那總裁對於外界認為川普以關稅匯率的手段試圖來重建美國主導整個世界的秩序請問總裁你認為有這種可能性嗎"},{"start":3141.477,"end":3155.451,"text":"我跟文報告齁剛剛你就說是黃志芳輸出這個董事長這是他個人的看法啦那你認為呢"},{"start":3157.812,"end":3164.375,"text":"我想關稅,關稅現在就是在談嘛只有關稅而已,沒有匯率就對了但是我們在5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們都澄清了"},{"start":3172.847,"end":3190.423,"text":"我們沒有受到美國的施壓說新台幣要升值所以針對這個主題呢我想委員是不是讓我來有一個澄清再還有一個聲明可以嗎"},{"start":3192.802,"end":3213.95,"text":"好第一個我要澄清的就是說我在5月5號的時候啊因為我要承認我的口才不好所以有些時候呢在答詢的時候啊我會結結巴巴的但是這個結結巴巴不代表說我有藍顏之隱那也不就是說我"},{"start":3218.51,"end":3234.103,"text":"好像是不善於說謊所以呢這個結結巴巴是因為苦才不好而這個跟我說謊或說是藍蓮之影一點關係都沒有所以說你認為那個沒有絕對沒有所以我就說"},{"start":3234.844,"end":3250.633,"text":"我要再澄清我要澄清然後我要另外一個聲明我們5月1號到5月2號到5月5號我們的新聞稿所敘述的都是真實的好 那個總裁因為你已經敘述過了"},{"start":3251.994,"end":3276.719,"text":"那我請教為了建立新的秩序總裁你認為美國又會有哪些我們會面臨有哪些的挑戰我想現在據我了解美國最主要的他現在的重點還是在關稅關稅所以說你認為匯率並不是這個就是美國有對我們沒有 絕對沒有所以我就說一直在澄清嘛"},{"start":3277.239,"end":3303.111,"text":"好 那我再請教因為那個黃志荒董事長表示台灣啦 經濟需要 要是他的觀點啦對啦 需要轉型啦那對外佈局不因此有製造啦 製造業啦還要參與新金融科技產業操作最重要要盡快成立主權基金啦來掌握強而有力的武器以協助這些業者來海外佈局那我請問總裁"},{"start":3305.152,"end":3322.349,"text":"主權基金扮演的角色或功能啊是不是如同黃董事長 黃志芳所說的那麼多元透過主權基金來因應關稅戰 匯率戰是不是就是萬無一失 你的看法呢我個人也是覺得那是他的觀點他的觀點那我請教"},{"start":3324.731,"end":3339.604,"text":"總裁事實上新台幣暴利升值已經引起民眾的恐慌和疑慮甚至於賴總統星期一也親自對外來說明整個匯率飆升的原因強調台灣經濟基本變良好"},{"start":3340.625,"end":3357.556,"text":"並否認台美談判有觸及匯率的議題那呼籲社會理性團結別散播謠言那我請問總裁為什麼匯率飆升政府就要強調經濟的基本面良好呢為什麼我想就是說"},{"start":3359.377,"end":3381.315,"text":"我想包括我個人 我們的新聞稿也都是有在強調說我們的基本面都還算還不錯你看看就是說主計總數第一4月30號它所發布的我們第一季的經濟成長率是調升了一點多現在它是多少呢 是5.37%"},{"start":3383.396,"end":3394.401,"text":"5.37%我覺得就是說以5.37%都比鄰近的國家都好所以講這個就是說是這個基本面良好我覺得這個是我也算是信心喊話的一種啊我請教總裁對面對匯率飆升多數民眾擔心的是就算現在基本面良好"},{"start":3405.746,"end":3421.79,"text":"短期內的未來經濟是否有可能好轉壞的可能那新台幣匯率飆升到底是警訊或者是根本轉壞的催化劑所以說才希望政府提出有效的解決方法以及對策"},{"start":3422.15,"end":3426.832,"text":"我覺得新台幣升到30塊左右的話我們如果說來看看歷史那麼短的時間看看我們就是說在以前的時間事實上我們新台幣Touch到30塊的"},{"start":3443.584,"end":3444.965,"text":"所以我還是要跟委員報告"},{"start":3467.944,"end":3483.643,"text":"短期內啦那個匯率有升有貶那有升有貶他真的是還是很難去預測他很難預測那你如果說我現在在升那說不定有一天他會貶都有可能啊"},{"start":3484.364,"end":3486.125,"text":"我請問總裁你認為光是喊話呼籲社會理性團結別散播謠言就能夠平息民眾對匯率飆升所造成未來不確定性的餘力嗎會不會"},{"start":3514.584,"end":3532.947,"text":"因為因為我們在這個新聞稿也講得很清楚啊就是說因為他的預期的心理非常強二月非常強的時候呢好那時候所以市場會有一個shock但是之後你看看他這個就是說這個那個那個市場的一個負"},{"start":3535.249,"end":3557.471,"text":"他的那個什麼那個非理性的這個負能量呢他就釋放了所以短短兩天你看看他後來這兩天三天他的那個什麼外資市場的供需就去平衡了那央行有沒有更明確的對策能夠指點國人來穩定民心有沒有辦法我想我們還是在呼籲就是說第一個不要就是說就沒有基本"},{"start":3557.811,"end":3575.779,"text":"沒有根據的然後這個就是說我們在第六點我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面我們的第六點跟第七點都講得很清楚就是說評論市場的評論人員他要節制因為他很容易會導致非理性市場的非理性那我請問總裁"},{"start":3578.54,"end":3597.096,"text":"對於南韓央行的行長表示近期包括韓元在內的亞洲貨幣普遍走強背後原因之一正是美方對各國匯率政策的干預壓力對於這個說法外交部引用韓國媒體的報導來表示國內報導過度的詮釋"},{"start":3603.382,"end":3610.169,"text":"總裁美國對亞洲國家匯率政策的甘於利道外交部為什麼會拿韓國媒體的報導內容來指責我們國內報導過度詮釋這個我不曉得"},{"start":3618.038,"end":3628.921,"text":"我不曉得但是據我了解好像我不曉得外交部的這件事但是好像我們的中經院還有韓國的半島電視台都認為這個翻譯好像有一點出入"},{"start":3638.343,"end":3652.272,"text":"有點出入那基本上呢那個Bank of Korea的那個Governor他怎麼來說這個呢我也不太清楚但是但是我還是要強調的"},{"start":3653.843,"end":3659.388,"text":"就我們來講的話 沒有就你的看法到底國內報導有沒有過度詮釋干預美國干預匯率的政策 依您的看法"},{"start":3673.62,"end":3698.492,"text":"這個就是說我們有沒有我們從那個市場的一個預期心理我們可以看得到就是說這個疫情心理是非常強的那要是說那個總裁如果沒有過度的詮釋外交部為何要替美國施壓整個匯率來護航如果真的要過度詮釋那麼到底造成新台幣匯率短期飆升的元兇到底是誰"},{"start":3699.832,"end":3724.297,"text":"我想我現在還是在講啊你就說禿鷹啊對不對不是說禿鷹啦我還是說市場的預期心理是很強啦因為我們還是在認為是這樣子總裁因為本期在質疑說為什麼只有台灣會市有禿鷹難道其他亞洲國家都沒有嗎我跟委員報告啦就是說事實上其他的國家的會市也有升值啦"},{"start":3724.537,"end":3745.914,"text":"也不是說沒有 也不是說沒有 還是你看他生殖的幅度雖然是沒有比我們大 但是基本上也差沒有多少啦還是那些禿鷹借由美國關稅談判 亞洲國家貨幣穩定度不夠那趁機空手套白狼 咬到肉就我沒有說 就說一定是禿鷹"},{"start":3746.815,"end":3769.42,"text":"我有說是草匯的要進來那我沒有緊盯的插所以媒體也就說就是吐音事實上我也沒有是這個意思你經常說新台幣匯率由市場來決定如果過度的波動央行會進去調節減緩匯率波動弧度那按照央行禮拜二公布四月底整個匯"},{"start":3771.36,"end":3799.117,"text":"就是我們外匯的存底5228.32億美元就是創歷史的新高月增48.1億美元那總裁近期匯率飆升央行基於穩定匯價一方面要達到政策目的一方面又要顧及央行的損益那請問你認為央行外匯存底到底應該繼續增加創新高還是會考量調降外匯存底的規模"},{"start":3800.017,"end":3815.37,"text":"那另外央行最近為穩定匯率的標準會不會從匯率操縱國家的觀察名單來升級為匯率操縱國會不會啊不會啦你很有信心啦對這不會啦"},{"start":3818.533,"end":3842.098,"text":"我是希望說那央行外匯局蔡局長表示外匯存底五千八百多億的美元估算兩天以累計升值兩元來估算外匯外幣兌換損失準備將破兆那雖然央行目前帳面能維持獲利的狀態而且央行持有的外匯部分部位"},{"start":3843.318,"end":3856.143,"text":"只會用準備項目來列記在資產負債表上不會影響央行每個月或每年的損益那本席想請問總裁央行的資產負債表因為匯率波動然後產生數字上的差異你認為外界會怎麼來解讀央行的財務狀況我跟委員報告"},{"start":3870.959,"end":3886.446,"text":"中央銀行的資產負債表非常健全就是這樣子非常健全希望如此我可以私下來跟你說明可以吧好 謝謝林德偉委員質詢下一位請顏光榮委員質詢主席各位理事官員大家早主席有請央行總裁好 這個央行總裁請"},{"start":3911.492,"end":3926.283,"text":"閻委員早總裁早是總裁這個新台幣開啟了這個時速列車的模式瘋狂的升值5月6號以30.280做收那甚至出現到新台幣兌換28元的狀況連網營都進不去"},{"start":3931.207,"end":3950.003,"text":"台灣是出口導向的國家這種過度的生死對我們一點好處都沒有過去央行的態度我們都知道就是主升不主貶但這一次央行卻一反常態已經連續生死好幾天就算央行出手調節生死的狀態也沒有什麼"},{"start":3950.883,"end":3972.714,"text":"變化沒有什麼趨緩那是不是因為跟剛剛這個談判關稅談判有關那你預計這一波的升值會多少我再次再跟委員報告我剛剛有一個澄清有一個聲明也許委員沒有聽到基本上是"},{"start":3974.355,"end":3991.481,"text":"關稅的談判沒有涉及到會議的問題這個我還是要澄清那第二個就是說我也是要建議就是說在我們的新聞稿裡面就是說市場的評論所以我覺得委員的一個"},{"start":3992.967,"end":4009.736,"text":"提問 槌尋我覺得這個是對我們全體都好為了全國的那個出口商 進口商都好但是啊 涉及到這個匯率的問題啊我是不是也可以建議就是說我們委員就是說"},{"start":4011.095,"end":4032.827,"text":"有些時候因為委員沒有在市場上那我們是每天在盯在市場所以我們知道市場的他的敏感度總裁南韓的央行總裁李昌雍他說亞洲各國的貨幣走勢部分原因是因為美國政府施壓我們楊總裁你跟他不同調"},{"start":4033.968,"end":4059.99,"text":"那也是剛剛這個說法嗎我跟委員報告就是說剛剛委員也有另外委員也有講到李昌雍就是他的Governor這個事實上Governor這個事實上有媒體也是說好像是把他翻譯錯了跟他的原意不是這樣子的謝謝總裁我們剛剛對你談判首輪剛剛結束那央行就放手讓新台幣升值"},{"start":4060.47,"end":4081.824,"text":"你也不要就是說是放鎖啦事實上中央議會是事實在調整你們沒有公示也沒有協議然後沒有施壓現在確實是難以相信啦所以我就是還是在我說我還是要再澄清我們5月1號5月2號所以也就是說這兩天是因為市場的預期太強烈了總裁這個你昨天說過了對"},{"start":4087.208,"end":4111.81,"text":"台幣、新台幣不是全球大量流通的貨幣啦最大的莊家就是你就是我們中央銀行那銀行沒有放行對不對要怎麼樣在短時間之內我跟委員報告啦事實上你都說中央銀行是最大的莊家我跟委員報告事實上市場的力量是很大的"},{"start":4112.799,"end":4130.638,"text":"現在市場厲害現在這個跟二三十年以前的事情就完全都不一樣了以前就是中央銀行莊家我們來講啦但是現在就不是了回到這個現況啦過度升值對我國是沒有什麼好處啦我們出口導向嘛對不對那也會因為"},{"start":4132.139,"end":4160.868,"text":"這個進口成本降低然後打壓到國內的產業那這樣子的情況企業面臨獲利下降就會降低成本我跟委員報告會議都是深深扁扁的對啦沒有錯我說這樣大幅的上升嘛大幅的分子那就是說未來包括無薪假財源失業率這些問題一定會接近發生嘛現在就發生了嘛委員現在所說的大部分都是負面的啦但是你也沒有想到就是正面的是什麼"},{"start":4162.949,"end":4175.418,"text":"如果說委員到國外去旅遊,你的購買力就提高了我們有多少時間可以常常去旅遊?你是工作的時間比較多還是旅遊的時間比較多?你是生產的時間多還是消費的時間多?"},{"start":4185.625,"end":4200.502,"text":"學者也提到說這波升值會重演1985年匯率作變造成製造業倒閉的產況近期台幣升值過快對這些企業都造成嚴重衝擊如果持續下去"},{"start":4201.483,"end":4216.298,"text":"會引發這些內需萎縮還有緊急翻轉的風險那央行到底是不是出手央行出手了嗎我跟委員報告啦我要跟委員報告事實上我們的企業他的人性非常強"},{"start":4218.928,"end":4227.274,"text":"從COVID-19之後到2024年我們的經濟成長率都比其他國家都好台企我們這些台灣的企業很強所以就讓他們自己去面對我還是在強調說匯率是有生來源"},{"start":4241.977,"end":4256.485,"text":"董事長 總裁 你在這個崗位對不對 該出手就出手我們專案銀行會盡我們的執著來維持市場的秩序所以說該出手就出手對 會 會那個委員 你的聲音非常好對 穩定金融 這就是我們的責任嘛 是不是這樣是是是 沒有錯 沒有錯對啦 對啦 好啦 那個總裁請回好不好好 謝謝好 那個主席有請那個國發會高副主委"},{"start":4283.163,"end":4299.034,"text":"我們雖然還沒有成立主權基金但是政府基金也有類似的功能那勞保、勞退、國民年金還有退伏基金沒有主權基金之名但有主權基金之實那國發基金也有類似的功能"},{"start":4299.975,"end":4304.736,"text":"國發會在2016年間已經提出新來幣1000億設立國發基金政府針對想要從事轉型、結構改造、併購等可誘發新投資行為的企業注資副主委你認為說國發基金是否有可能轉型為主權基金簡單的說明好不好"},{"start":4322.981,"end":4343.368,"text":"我想國發基金要轉型為主權基金因為國發基金是按照產創條例設立的那產創條例第29條事實上就是我們要從事產業的創新價值這一點基本上是符合所謂的主權基金裡面的所謂策略性投資為目的的可是因為它不以盈利為目的所以不符合所謂的財務型的主權基金"},{"start":4344.949,"end":4371.096,"text":"那第二個呢就是說我們國發基金的資金來源是國庫撥款跟作業盈餘的循環運用那這一塊呢就會受限在主權基金就如果主權基金金額要很大的話那這一塊如果由國庫撥款這一塊可能就會盈餘這個就不夠所以不同的國家主權基金設立的時候他有不同的法源依據啊所以說像我們就是像我們的這個我們剛剛提到的"},{"start":4375.974,"end":4388.563,"text":"這些也都要通過預算法、中央營養法或者是公司法、專法這些來設立所以一些學者的看法就是說多數民主化程度比較高的國家會設立專法來規範主權機制的管理"},{"start":4392.586,"end":4414.546,"text":"法律的明確規定讓各機關之間的這個合作跟分工啦對不對那如果要設立主權基金也可以選擇用外匯存底或者是現有的政府基金來進行轉型那因為有不同的法源依據跟主管部門所以如果沒有明確的法律依據實在是難以實現就像妳剛剛提到的有些是從"},{"start":4417.21,"end":4428.966,"text":"這個稅收盈餘去做一個提撥那要設立主權基金應該要制定專門的法律來規範所以這個你也同意嗎是我同意委員的意見好那如果是這樣子的話我們"},{"start":4431.83,"end":4444.819,"text":"主權基金的本質是盈利就是有不同的目的有的基金是所謂財務型的有些是策略型的投資重點就是獲利他的運作也需要具備一個相當高的獨立性如果主權基金"},{"start":4453.425,"end":4472.908,"text":"有時候如果受到政治因素的干擾或者是外交因素那這樣子的話有外交利益或者是政治目的的這樣子來影響他會讓這個主權基金變成說沒有辦法去獨立兼具他的獨立兼具他的市場的一個投資的目的跟標的"},{"start":4473.709,"end":4498.045,"text":"所以他必須要有完善的治理跟建立的價格尤其我國啦我國在國際舞台上處境就非常特殊不管是在外交上面面臨的一些挑戰或者是在政治上的這些會受到一些干涉外交的干涉都有那選擇因為這樣子外交的干涉所以我們去選擇某些國家或者是企業來做投資對象"},{"start":4499.826,"end":4523.574,"text":"所以這些考量就會跟純粹的一個財務利益互相衝突跟其他國家新加坡的這些這些一個主權基金就不一樣了我想我們可以試我們國內我們自己的情況我們來設定我們設立的部分能夠保持主權基金的專業性跟長期發展這最重要好不好是好謝謝副主委謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":4553.479,"end":4567.262,"text":"請麥思白委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請央行的楊總裁以及國發會的高副主委有請楊總裁高副主委"},{"start":4576.647,"end":4594.052,"text":"兩位長官好 我就請教剛才兩位長官都有提到好像特別是國發基金這個國會你也是主張跟楊總裁講的一樣還有我們請財政部的次長一起來"},{"start":4595.697,"end":4610.354,"text":"就是主權基金應該是政府出錢的所以國發基金其實很適合來成立主權基金這個總裁同意嗎"},{"start":4612.556,"end":4617.277,"text":"主權基金的規模通常會比較大所以我們用國庫撥款跟作業營運來循環運用這一點不夠主權基金很重要就是專業的管理經濟"},{"start":4633.263,"end":4662.597,"text":"所以我們的人員聘用跟薪資我們目前國發基金是要符合公務人員的任用法所以這個可能也會受限財政部啊如果這個成立因為大家現在好像一直有這個聲音說成立國家主權基金了財政部一天把它挑起來怎麼樣財政部急啊這個可能還要再討論啦基本上就是有關這個裁員的這一部分當然央行是有一些建議比如說"},{"start":4663.637,"end":4674.247,"text":"有財政部發債 或者是財政部出資成立 或者是財政部委託來經營等等就發行公債來講 現在目前我們的公債法規定只有兩種一種是假種公債 只是用來貼補財政收支差短"},{"start":4687.139,"end":4702.406,"text":"那另外一種公債是作為資產性的財源那如果是說要在成立主權基金要透過發債的方式的話那一定要透過專案的立法充分的討論而且要取得各界的共識"},{"start":4703.579,"end":4729.138,"text":"對我就問你了因為總裁一直反對這個因為現在很多人在打他主意要撥外匯存底來成立這個主權基金他強調今天報告也強調他反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金要的話就產生不你要去發債就發債你要發債你去發債政府的錢成立主權基金"},{"start":4730.198,"end":4745.949,"text":"國外基金金額太少而且因為我們在講城鎮不入發債也發太少了要是多發一點也不是壞事 台灣有錢嗎發債我們目前就是依照公債法的規定來發債可不可以發債成立主權基金"},{"start":4750.452,"end":4764.296,"text":"發財主權基金的話我剛才講就是說一定要大家因為股權基金他基本上是創富基金你不用再講了因為我不是在問你你請回總裁啊你們其他兩位都請回"},{"start":4770.875,"end":4788.973,"text":"總理你強調這幾個原則你要堅守到底喔就是反對無償使用立專法財政部最好財政部出錢政府的錢成立你要堅守喔我們是支持你的喔你不要支持你到時候你跑掉了喔"},{"start":4789.694,"end":4814.014,"text":"我們 不可以這樣子喔 你不會跑掉喔委員 事實上呢 我們的一貫的立場都是一直 一路走來都是一樣的不管行政院給你什麼壓力喔好 你剛才講的一句話聽了有一點不知道怎麼講啦我覺得總裁是老實人啦 故意人啦昨天 你剛才講的是什麼一個聲明 一個什麼"},{"start":4815.448,"end":4833.393,"text":"一個商名 一個澄清一個澄清一個商名 對那個我給你另外白話文詮釋就是說你的表達方式也許有些人不滿意但是你很真誠 你很實在 資料很管用這樣對嗎對啦這樣對啦 我要清釋給你清楚對啦 對啦"},{"start":4839.375,"end":4844.619,"text":"我就說我的口才不好嘛但是委員的口才非常好啊所以你看看你幾句話就把我想要說的就想要說出來了所以我非常謝謝你"},{"start":4854.98,"end":4861.066,"text":"這樣說就好啊你不要說你口才不好你說我表達方式大家不一定滿意因為他說我結結巴巴的還有一個就說我是史詩級的結結巴巴他聽了非常害怕"},{"start":4873.789,"end":4883.457,"text":"所以我就說我必須要澄清啊我要這個場合來澄清啊你會不會我覺得我讓他心生害怕那這好像就是說那市場的人士一聽到我的講話大家都很害怕反而那個預期心理會更強烈沒有啊你看後面這邊反而就是整個整個傷亡了啊"},{"start":4902.632,"end":4926.253,"text":"你聽了那些的 不管哪一個台啦 其實這部分人力啦你聽了很生氣是不是我也不是說很生氣 因為我總覺得所以我還在說說 我還必須要做一個澄清就是我們的新聞那我是要請問你 你講話還是有用的啦你講話 當然"},{"start":4928.475,"end":4957.408,"text":"講話完畢你看三十塊就穩下來也不是你講話有用啦是開心你就下手下去了啊就有調節了啊請問有沒有調節沒有調節啊我要跟委員報告就是說疫情心理很強的時候調節是比較是必要的啊對調節是必要的但是比較沒有用但是啊你看看說讓那個價格下來了以後呢你看看我們的調節就變得非常的順利"},{"start":4957.708,"end":4965.895,"text":"那我問你 你是不是外界可以解讀說因為你已經出手了而且你發這麼大的脾氣大概30塊錢可以暫時穩定一段時間可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":4971.203,"end":4975.805,"text":"所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間我沒有發那麼大的脾氣啦我只是說跟市場一個訊息就是說到此為止那個非理性的"},{"start":4997.377,"end":5011.029,"text":"我說非理性的預期到此為止我都查了資料啦我們現在外匯存底多少錢?5800億一天的外匯交易量多少?"},{"start":5016.474,"end":5042.287,"text":"我們一天的外交運量 平常齁 就是說 如果說是大概是20億到30億最多是10億啦 大概25億啦25億 要運付這個Tissue of Cake啊Tissue of Cake 你現在講 吐運到底有沒有吐運我跟委員報告齁 就是說我在那個5月5號的記者會 我是講就是說"},{"start":5044.413,"end":5054.503,"text":"那個草匯的進來 但是他parking在那邊那什麼意思所以我就說 有一點類似那個什麼 類似禿鷹的我警惕他 我警告他"},{"start":5061.415,"end":5090.504,"text":"那這樣的話事實上就像委員所說的一樣的我們講了有效有效他就不會就說緊急妄動那當然啊所以最近你看看他最近你看看他那個買鈔都買了好幾百億啊就他進來就說要買股票他就乖乖的買股票不能夠趴在那裡等著台幣升值就不要parking在那邊他說他的目的呢跟他所那個的不一樣那這不好"},{"start":5092.744,"end":5112.809,"text":"都盯得住吧所以總裁啊難怪人家這樣子質疑嘛五千八百多億VS一天二三十億對不對他如果搞怪你馬上開始阻殺就好了"},{"start":5113.809,"end":5139.139,"text":"以前1997年的亞洲金融風暴彭總裁就這樣子啊這樣子接近來給我們阻殺跟他對殺就把他殺掉就好啦是啦我還是謝謝委員的鼓勵我也還是謝謝委員的建議我還沒講完但是我要強調就是所以可見難怪外界會質疑你"},{"start":5141.02,"end":5153.174,"text":"過去你只要那個外匯市場只要台幣一趴你大概就會去拋棄了結果這次這樣三趴四趴你動都不動"},{"start":5155.717,"end":5160.382,"text":"絕對沒有美國的壓力所以就說是因為美國壓力所以外資市場才會做這樣的波動 也不是是因為評論人都說美國施壓 美國一定會怎麼樣怎麼樣結果導致我們的出口商還有外資都有一種恐慌"},{"start":5179.56,"end":5205.366,"text":"特別是我們出口商所以我們的第六點我們就在講啊我們的第六點就要講到就是說如果說他這樣的疫情心理大家都拋的話到最後傷到的是誰傷到他自己啊美國即便沒有施壓啦但最少你心裡有一個壓力你自己有一個壓力因為六月份他們美國要宣布匯率操縱口"},{"start":5207.525,"end":5218.268,"text":"6月份要宣布這個按照道理按照正常的應該是在4月底之前不過到目前為止他還沒有他還沒有所以現在不曉得所以你講到這裡的時候就是說我今天看到媒體媒體就是說到6月底6月的時候我們會被宣布為嚴重的"},{"start":5236.433,"end":5257.798,"text":"匯率操縱國或是後來他標題說嚴重的匯率觀察名單沒有所謂的嚴重不嚴重觀察名單就是觀察名單匯率操縱就是匯率操縱沒有所謂嚴重的就好像特別對我們台灣所設立的沒有這回事沒有這回事那我覺得時間到了我就問你確定一下"},{"start":5259.895,"end":5277.203,"text":"就是台灣只是被列為觀察民間絕對不會被列為操縱國對不對我們應該這麼說就是說按照以前的標準是那三項我們到目前我們就只有達到"},{"start":5278.644,"end":5289.08,"text":"就經常這樣佔GDP的比重是3%那還有就是說對美國出超過150至於就是匯率的這個部分沒有他又說我們要買貨2%佔GDP的比重沒有"},{"start":5294.026,"end":5322.142,"text":"我只能跟最後一句話就是你在那個三趴那個洞一下子一天漲一塊錢你至少沒有出手主要就是你會擔心被列為匯率操作官我想我都一直這一個原則美國有他的一個法定職責就是說譬如說FED他有法定的職責台灣中英行也有法定職責"},{"start":5323.303,"end":5336.75,"text":"大家就不懂了那幾天你怎麼動都不動沒有說不動就不動沒有沒有我們還要適度調節只是說那時候的回完那時候的預期心理非常的非理性而且非常強就這樣子"},{"start":5338.991,"end":5365.709,"text":"所以你暫時非理性非理性就是那非理性不過現在就是說喔好那這樣價格下來的又他的那個戶的能量呢已經釋放了所以現在我們在炒賭的話就很順暢我聽你講我請你一次你後面那一句話我看你到底對我沒有說服力啦你五千八百億VS一天二三十億你打不過他笑死人啦我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":5369.511,"end":5378.755,"text":"那個央行 央行的調節也是要有節制啦好 謝謝賴思寶委員質詢接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請央行楊總裁有請央行楊總裁"},{"start":5405.849,"end":5431.022,"text":"吳委員早總裁好今天雖然是題目是要研究要成立國發基金與否但是我看今天主題的焦點都在你身上那就是因為大家關心匯率是啦那先講我們今天的主題我看到你的報告裡面有主張說這個不能不贊成由外匯存底來撥但是有幾個方式包括是不是可以發行"},{"start":5432.863,"end":5449.762,"text":"像民間募資或是說像財政部出錢等等幾個你們列個方式其實我覺得那個像民間募資是一個不錯的方法如果大家對於這個政府將來成立的這個專門機構他的投資有信心那民間募資等於是國債嘛"},{"start":5450.763,"end":5477.957,"text":"那至少讓我們現在台灣充沛的這個超額儲蓄或是這個想要投資的金額有地方去啊有很多人還去買美債咧那如果我對中華民國有信心對台灣有信心我買台灣國債也是一個不錯的方法只是以前我們對於這一方面國債這個發行的控制一直很嚴格啊所以這個我覺得這也是一個不錯的方法你們的看法呢"},{"start":5480.092,"end":5499.753,"text":"委員在講這個的時候,我也覺得就是說,如果就我們中央的債務佔ZDP的比重以目前來看的話,差不多是25、29左右而已"},{"start":5500.834,"end":5523.533,"text":"跟其他的國家來比較的話我們說實話我們的財政紀律非常嚴謹嚴謹的意思就是說事實上財政還是有空間的所以如果我這個是專門為國發基金發行要發行國發基金我向民間募資所發行的國債如果你要算入這個債務總量那就"},{"start":5526.363,"end":5542.215,"text":"那就不一定很好用啦因為在馬政府的時代曾經舉借高達百分之三十八點多你知道嗎總共就三千就四十點七而已啊那時候剩下兩二點多個將近三個百分點就"},{"start":5543.191,"end":5569.247,"text":"就破表啦是現在這些年來的努力之後近十幾年來的努力之後現在才降到這25點多的狀況那如果要走國債發行這一個路子是不是這個那一部分的發行的這個公債喔應該不要去記錄這個總債總量裡面為什麼因為那個不是國家國家只是發行之後把你的錢拿來當國發機器"},{"start":5572.79,"end":5592.854,"text":"這個機器它並沒有把它拿去花掉它並不是負債的觀念我是覺得這樣子才會比較有空間那我是贊成這樣的方式不過這個目前只是在研議階段將來離這個要具體成案還有應該還要花很多的心力所以我們就回到現在的熱點上面來談這個規律的問題"},{"start":5595.947,"end":5616.716,"text":"如果單只有兩個國家的貿易因為匯率其實非常的複雜而且是整個世界跟不同國家之間的變動如果單純就國際貿易兩個國家之間的匯率如果是長期的出超國它的貨幣本來就是應該慢慢要升值的"},{"start":5619.218,"end":5643.779,"text":"這個入超國它本來就是貨幣會比較弱勢啦正常狀況是這樣講所以台灣如果長程一直對美國一直加大這個出超 順差然後一直持續的話那台幣的走強是可以預期嘛其實這幾年來喔台幣在周遭國家相對我們的匯率是比較強的我們的幣值也比較強嘛 對不對"},{"start":5645.461,"end":5654.673,"text":"我跟委員報告 就是說委員的分析是沒有錯不過就是說現在決定匯率的因素不是"},{"start":5657.677,"end":5680.056,"text":"不是就貿易的這個部分因為我們也是一直在就是說說明事實上現在的外匯市場我們現在外匯市場那個資金的移動這個部分所佔的比重非常高全球我就跟委員報告全球就是說資金的移動的這種金融帳的這個外匯的交易呢"},{"start":5682.778,"end":5704.785,"text":"所佔的比重超過95%以上是啦 這個是我後面要說的 我說正常如果以長程的理論來講是這樣但是因為因素非常的複雜在央行剛剛講的啊 這個跟基金有關啊全世界這麼大金額的基金這麼多我舉個例子 以前索羅斯曾經要來舉起台幣嘛那也是他用大量的資金"},{"start":5705.565,"end":5723.985,"text":"這基金來 其實個人財富要去撼動匯率那是很困難的但是要有大量的基金來做這種巨額的進入 巨額的離開之前有發生亞洲金融危機不是就是為了匯率的聚集而來的那是大量的金額的移動"},{"start":5726.448,"end":5737.899,"text":"我覺得這次楊朗也注意到說對於這個大筆金額的移動你們有在盯嘛也表達有盯嘛也表達說要跟他溝通嘛講難聽點就要請他喝咖啡嘛你剛剛也有講到你進來如果是為了要買股票"},{"start":5743.945,"end":5768.931,"text":"那我們不反對啊但是你如果進來 parking 在那邊大量一直進來準備要賺會差這個我們就不能同意啦對對沒有錯那個委員謝謝謝謝你在這邊來宣示這一次的問題我想到的是另外的問題因為這一次有非常大的這個預期心理不是只有基金的移動另外還有"},{"start":5770.563,"end":5799.775,"text":"我不知道為什麼有很多人就是對於川普完全就抱著非常懷疑非常不信任認為他做的都是壞事這樣的角度在看待事情所以他就去拿什麼海湖莊園啊什麼新台幣會升值到13.3比1啊他用大麥克指數所謂大麥克指數當然內行人知道他用大麥克指數去認為台幣的這個購買力等於是應該對美金是13.3用這樣的角度來看的話台幣一定會巨幅升值"},{"start":5800.535,"end":5824.503,"text":"就引發了群眾心理這個就某種角度類似銀行的擠兌同一個時間大家都要去領錢同一個時間大家都要去換費就還引起網路塞車我現在想到這當然是金融網路的課題現在有網路銀行已經有三家這個問題不是只有塞車如果你在那邊流量"},{"start":5825.723,"end":5839.174,"text":"很大上次美國倒了幾家銀行尤其是矽谷的銀行就是同一時間大家都是因為網路的關係所有的大公司都是網路立刻把錢轉走等於是"},{"start":5840.526,"end":5858.728,"text":"以前擠兌還要人工去銀行分行排隊領錢你要領大量的錢你要派卡車運鈔車來載現在的網路銀行因為網路的關係我會走多少錢是根本只是一個案件的動作"},{"start":5860.666,"end":5882.499,"text":"所以我是覺得這一方面金融機構要有新的想法面對網路暢通無阻之後如果同時大量的預期行李同時去進行網路的動作的話一方面網路塞車被罵爆了我要辦 辦不到但是如果你都完全順暢的話"},{"start":5884.073,"end":5910.93,"text":"很可能會引起這種災難委員你的分析我非常佩服確實是這樣子就是說像美國的那個最近那個錢搬出去速度之快一樣的就是說你外匯的買賣呢一個訊息呢他就能夠有那個羊群的那個效應大家一窩蜂的確實您的分析是非常正確的"},{"start":5912.55,"end":5939.319,"text":"過去台灣的外匯資料看起來緩升跟急升各有利弊緩升的最大的弊弊是有預期心理所以不會停我不知道你要緩步升到哪裡所以我每天投入都會賺那就導致大家都每天都在玩這個長期而言政府就大失血而且終點在哪裡不知道緩升就緩升的困難"},{"start":5940.239,"end":5967.62,"text":"提升的困難在哪裡呢是做這些外做這些出口的進口的他因為對於這個匯率要多少不清楚他報價很困難所以導致他短期之間的營運困難第二個困難就是說他可能他的避險成本要花很多所以這個其實如果匯率在上漲或是下跌無論是緩跟急喔都各有利弊啦但是你們央行就是要"},{"start":5968.641,"end":5993.284,"text":"很注意這個是不是有惡意性的人為操控譬如說要外大量的基金要來套現要來套利所以要注意防止這個東西是是是 沒有錯沒有錯所以我就覺得應該要讓媒體知道啊其實即生如果是確定進來幣的幣值假設是假設是30點多即生不見得比返生不好欸"},{"start":5994.185,"end":6008.126,"text":"如果我知道現在的幣值從33塊要升到30點多而且是慢慢升的話那我每天進去都賺錢啊是 沒有錯啦所以委員的這個說法我非常贊同這個也就是說為什麼我們在"},{"start":6009.387,"end":6028.126,"text":"我們在禮拜一就5月5號的時候我們出來臨時的記者會那也非常好的就是說立法院就是財委會呢也給我們的這個機會來充分再次的說明再次的澄清好那就加油這個方面的控制就是對於那個"},{"start":6029.327,"end":6040.633,"text":"大量的資金突然之間來突襲的我們還是要有以待之的 小心防備是是是好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的諮詢下一位請賴慧雲委員諮詢請謝謝主席請央行總裁財政部次長央行總裁財政部委員次長國安會副主委國安會高副主委"},{"start":6064,"end":6080.349,"text":"賴委員早是 三位早安那首先我先跟財政部次長請教一下這個我們2000年開始就是設立的這個國發基金那它的資本額是那個五發基金是吧"},{"start":6084.57,"end":6108.735,"text":"國安基金這個五千億到目前就是說第九次第九次就是進來護盤那我們也知道就是說其實這個是一個非常穩定的一個力量是不是有機會我想再跟你討教一下這個五千億要提高到一兆以前這個是我們有提出這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":6110.035,"end":6131.345,"text":"那現在的進度怎麼樣?現在事實上基本上因為目前真的是我們的股市的市值比剛成立的時候就增加大概9倍那外資大概本來從大概10幾%到現在就40幾%所以的確是跟過去成立的時候不一樣"},{"start":6132.625,"end":6157.79,"text":"但是我們那個基金一直都是維持在五千億那真正可以用的就只有兩千億所以就操作上真的是有壓力啦有沒有打算提升當然能夠提升的話如果大家有共識可以提升的話那最好事實上就是說我們有提出這樣子的一個計劃案我要知道現在的進度到哪裡"},{"start":6158.933,"end":6183.603,"text":"目前還在溝通的階段那如果有機會我們把它提升到一兆的時候像目前這樣的一個金融狀況就有大筆資金的一個移動它有沒有可能進來就是說不管是在股市還是透過不同的一個方式然後就是穩定國內的一個金融秩序"},{"start":6185.161,"end":6201.289,"text":"基本上我們是當然我們是管股市嘛就穩定股市那穩定股市當然可能會涉及到外資的這個進出這個都會涉及到那基本上這個有關資金的進出這部分還是央行的權責還是央行的權責好市長你請回謝謝"},{"start":6205.211,"end":6230.801,"text":"那總裁我想還是大家還是把這個就是說指向於就是那個國內的金融秩序我們還是要有央行來就是統籌啦那就是說美元的一個就是趨勢就是我們知道在這兩週內它其實就是新台幣大幅的升值那我們看到就是在4月28跟5月"},{"start":6232.082,"end":6247.178,"text":"那個5月5號這兩週甚至就是說在5月2號這個單日的那個調幅還是最高那其實這個也造成了就是說國內就是整個這個金融市場那個就是大地震"},{"start":6247.728,"end":6272.963,"text":"那我們就是說把這幾個這個造成那個台幣的大地震裡頭我們把這幾個因素放進來不管是外資大量的一個流入還是出口商加速的一個結匯還是市場的意氣心理還是央行他你當天你沒有明顯的干預的一個動作那如果這四個因素裡頭總裁你怎麼看這個是"},{"start":6274.343,"end":6297.904,"text":"這四個因素裡頭,你認為這四個因素裡頭最大的原因是什麼?是央行沒有進去?我還剛剛已經有說明了事實上就是說是因為預期薪禮預期薪禮所以那個出口商他的一個拋匯非常的他的供給大幅的增加"},{"start":6299.464,"end":6318.532,"text":"剛好也是因為美國的股市慢慢在恢復所以外資也進來我們台灣為什麼大家會這麼害怕因為大家會有這樣的一個意期心理就是說我們不要去怕鬼"},{"start":6319.792,"end":6344.429,"text":"那我們從1985年到1992年這個美元從一美元換40塊的台幣一美元換25塊的台幣這個其實在這一波裡頭大家震盪也非常大那1987年到1990年那時候都說台灣錢比較多可是短短的8個月在1990年的10月就跌到了股市跌到了2485點"},{"start":6350.273,"end":6371.984,"text":"這個其實讓很多老一輩的台灣人最後這個玩股票玩的是傾家蕩產所以為什麼大家會這麼害怕大家就是有一個義氣的心理啊如果不會的話我跟你講如果經濟不是那麼可怕的話那我們如果從政治的一個角度裡頭那我請教你美國有沒有對我們台灣施壓"},{"start":6372.924,"end":6375.566,"text":"我剛剛就已經有一個一個澄清還有一個所以是你認為是沒有是沒有我們5月1號5月2號5月5號做的那個媒體把那個南韓的一個就是說他的一個大標然後來跟這個你的話做一個很大的對所以我也看到媒體他也就說他"},{"start":6396.42,"end":6400.843,"text":"他就是說是韓國的Governor打我一巴掌確實這個是有點形容過度啦應該是沒有啦沒有這回事所以我總覺得就是說要節制有些時候就是說在報導上要節制啦"},{"start":6419.473,"end":6446.226,"text":"報導上要節制這個是你跟媒體喊話啦好那我們提到了一個認知的一個作戰認知的一個作戰其實我覺得為什麼媒體會誤會你其實我們都一直建議就是說我們參會會其實從去年下半年我們一直就是在關注川普上任的時候的對等關稅的一個議題那像本席也緩緩互互的跟行政院跟央行財政部金管會討論了"},{"start":6447.907,"end":6467.302,"text":"就是建議了就是在質詢裡頭也一直在告訴你們說央行的經濟分析其實我們是很肯定的因為你們每一次的報告其實是做的最詳細的謝謝你們在執行面上相形是弱了一點是不是有機會不要蓋牌"},{"start":6471.586,"end":6489.14,"text":"你不要蓋牌的話是不是會讓你這個蓋牌會讓大家更緊張如果說你透過一個更透明的一個操作方式的話是不是大家這個意氣心裡就可以降低一點我們來改進我們來改進謝謝我們的指教我想啦這個其實在這麼震盪的一個大環境裡頭"},{"start":6495.905,"end":6515.554,"text":"這個大家要看得準的沒有幾個可是我相信你應該是其中會看得準的其中一個因為台灣其實過去20多年來對於外債的一個持有其實已經就是是等級的就是一直跳一直跳一直跳甚至海外的資產累積高達到1.7兆的美元這個1.7兆的美元就是以保險業者佔多"},{"start":6523.337,"end":6545.705,"text":"那保險業者面臨到這麼大的一個困難的時候你怎麼去看待你有什麼好的因應方式呢事實上保險業的這個他的投資投資情況雖然我們中央銀行也有一些的掌握不過這個主要的還是在金管會"},{"start":6547.245,"end":6559.423,"text":"不過根據因為媒體也是有在做這樣的一個報導所以我們也有跟這個金管會做一些的溝通到目前為止我第一個要說的就是說"},{"start":6562.908,"end":6590.594,"text":"第一個事實上我剛剛也講過了新台幣的匯率是在30塊左右事實上前面這個不是第一次如果說這個是第一次的話那麼就是說30塊這個很可怕沒有不會因為前面很長的時間30塊的左右的都很多那時候他也度過了"},{"start":6591.714,"end":6605.962,"text":"是不是那這一次呢大家就說又把他就說那30塊他非常危險所以我就說第一個30塊以前就很多的時候都是30塊左右啊那我請教你"},{"start":6608.663,"end":6630.543,"text":"對於就是台幣在這一波的一個升值你認為是短期的還是是這個中長期的一個趨勢呢所以委員我還是要強調的就是說匯率是第一個它比較難捉摸它有升有貶那我們中央銀行也是不希望我們的市場"},{"start":6634.446,"end":6649.739,"text":"單邊的預期所以基本上我們中央銀行也就希望就是說我們的匯率能夠在一個範圍之內能夠穩定那至於就是說它會怎麼樣它未來會怎麼樣說實在的中央銀行也說不准"},{"start":6650.94,"end":6656.904,"text":"所以我現在要跟委員報告的就是說以目前這一波的強烈的預期心理經過了這幾天我總覺得上一次我們就說應該要到此為止這個非理性的預期希望再到此為止不過這幾天我們觀察的結果我們覺得供需是趨於平衡的"},{"start":6677.361,"end":6682.883,"text":"我們的調節也蠻順暢的所以應該就放心了謝謝總裁主席再給我一分鐘我在針對的就是說後續後續就是說我們要因應川普的一個對等關稅那國防會你有沒有就是說在根本上減輕保險業者的一個匯兌的一個風險"},{"start":6706.929,"end":6721.977,"text":"重點就是說將他們的資金拉回來台灣那其實我們在推動這個兆元投資國家發展的方案的時候這些方案你們有沒有實際做了一些什麼先來看我們看到了沒有看到了一個很具體的"},{"start":6723.417,"end":6745.264,"text":"我跟委員報告一下的確我們就是看到其實我們現在受險業者很多都是去買美債那我們希望這些受險業者有多一些投資的工具也就是說他可以回到台灣來投資我們的公共建設的計畫所以我們現在其實我們有一個那個促穿的一個平台是產官學就是受險業也在裡面"},{"start":6747.285,"end":6775.939,"text":"非常明確的就是國花會就是說你這個整體來講的話我們看不到一些具體的非常具體的一個案例如果我們用一個就是之前納曼台三線它其實很具體就是這七十億裡頭它就把它很明確的就是說用台三線的這個客家主體來做一個花展的話那有沒有機會就是往南部走那南部走的時候我們的中小型移感的一個"},{"start":6776.499,"end":6798.954,"text":"升級還是說我們中小型水庫的一個硬體強化這個都是會就是針對了就是說近期的那個氣候變遷他所帶來的這一這些就是不管是地震還是土石流這些問題都會造成我們非常大的一個需要所以在這裡我要要求央行國發會跟軍管會合作評估是不是"},{"start":6799.614,"end":6814.032,"text":"可能經濟的一個因應經濟的一個情勢跟作為在兩週內以書面的一個回復那就說央行如果強化公開的外匯相關的一個資訊台幣升值的一個趨勢是短期還是中長期那"},{"start":6814.713,"end":6835.257,"text":"我們海外的一個投資是不是因為這樣產生大額的一個賄損但你如何因應是不是禁止上市櫃保險業者就是說在花換股利還是如何積極引導保險業者的一個基金回到台灣投入遲遲都沒有發展的兆元投資國家發展的一個方案"},{"start":6835.777,"end":6850.468,"text":"那在對於台灣地方就是觀光、社宅、交通等等的一個需求一直都是非常高的請中央銀行積極的嚴厲相關的一個規劃好 謝謝主席好 謝謝內委員的質詢現在有請郭國文委員質詢請謝謝主席有請楊總裁跟阮次楊總裁"},{"start":6864.188,"end":6865.214,"text":"還有軟刺 軟刺長 財政部軟刺長"},{"start":6871.497,"end":6897.975,"text":"郭委員早總裁最近辛苦了總裁其實就美元的部分的這個走勢本席曾經在委員會當中就教於您您兩次都斬釘截鐵回答本席說一定是強勢美元但是呢我就這個美元的這一個指數它對照六個國際貨幣的指數加權平均來計算它從川普上任的時候是108目前一路一直走走走走到100喔"},{"start":6899.316,"end":6915.069,"text":"顯然你也預測跟你的這個現在事實的發展有一些不一樣的地方這是第一個那第二個你也常常在引述說這個美國財政部的說法為什麼財政部是財政部啊商業部是商業部啊商業部希望走扁財政部希望走強啊"},{"start":6915.809,"end":6937.652,"text":"那依照這一波下來之後 它還是一直在盤旋在100左右可能因為一個訊息就跑上去 可能因為一個訊息跑下來那我就想要救教 第三次救教於總裁 你認為美元會走強還是走弱所以我剛剛在答覆其他委員的時候 我就說匯率說實在是很難去預測的啦"},{"start":6938.493,"end":6957.237,"text":"沒有不好意思可是你上次講了斬釘截鐵沒有沒有沒有我剛剛上次的講法是3月13號我上次的講法是說美國的財政部呢都每一個財政部的部長都希望強烈去年10月我改天掉袋子給你看我跟你argue這個沒意思啦去年10月我待會事後給媒體你斬釘截鐵會說左強"},{"start":6960.158,"end":6984.856,"text":"為什麼問這個 這個跟匯率有所相關那這一波的匯率來說的話我也對照你的臉書上面來看我們是急升到8.26然後日本是緩升到8.99那緩升跟急升之間結果還是相同那為什麼我們突然之間急升呢我不曉得你有沒有想過這個原因但是你有講出來幾個一個可能性"},{"start":6985.316,"end":7002.207,"text":"第一個當然就是外資匯入買股第二個是進出口商拋售美元第三個就是所謂的熱錢跟禿鷹可是我想這些你現在的說法都是一些貨幣因素可是與其心理應該是心理因素我抓兩個東西 總裁"},{"start":7004.488,"end":7021.454,"text":"我認為貨幣因素當中的炒匯突入因當你講這個或許有這個可能停留過久但我就就教於你還有兩個可能性會造成這個預期心理第一個也就是廣場協議的部分1.0可能會產生2.0的版本你是到5月初才說嘛對不對"},{"start":7024.584,"end":7039.851,"text":"因為我一直聽到你是五月出台書但是這個1.0的這個印象對台灣人來說其實衝擊實在太大了除了日本之外就是我們嘛這是第一個我覺得你的表態跟說明太晚"},{"start":7040.151,"end":7055.659,"text":"因為大家不是所有人對整體經濟都對你這麼熟悉嗎這是第一個第二個呢有人提到所謂的這一個那個經濟學人的大麥克指數的時候直接抵明台灣會升值到13.3的時候老師說我沒有看到央行有任何的一個反駁跟說明啊"},{"start":7057.349,"end":7073.172,"text":"而且媒體一直燒燒燒 燒了好多天了到昨天謝金河還在講央行有沒有在這個進行反駁 也沒有所以以至於這種媒體的推波助瀾之下再加上這個突應來襲就造成了這一波的急漲啊"},{"start":7074.133,"end":7089.655,"text":"我看法是這樣子是啦那個委員說的也沒有錯不過我們也有事實上就是說當然就是說就是說第一時間來澄清是效果會更好啦"},{"start":7090.035,"end":7105.1,"text":"對啊當然啦你沒有神經啊但是呢我們就是說只有在私下跟這些市場的評論者太保守了啦對啦這個是有一點我們以後又會要記取這個教訓你知道商業週刊的那個渲染力有多強"},{"start":7105.86,"end":7120.309,"text":"他還有一定的權威性13.3%裡面沒有任何的反駁結果讓他燒來燒去燒了半個月第二個你也是五月初的時候才開始講說所謂的廣場協定的2.0%我是前幾天的時候在聽你講說廣場協定2.0%不可能出現那我對照現在的資本規模確實你講的有道理"},{"start":7126.232,"end":7149.699,"text":"我不是否認 但是至少你的時間點 時間點要抓好嘛是是是 早分預期性越來越大 你不否認吧對對 委員的一個建議啊 我們來 我們吸取教訓以後就是說對於這個 就是說這個就是說 星星之火可以燎原對 沒有錯嘛那確實啦確實啦 那在這一個 在這方面呢 我想我們應該就是說"},{"start":7153.362,"end":7167.08,"text":"另外有說以前要及時撲滅猩猩之火對不對沒有錯啦沒有錯啦你以後成為機構所有的消防車都在你那邊隨便灑一下就熄啦第三個部分就是禿鷹"},{"start":7168.061,"end":7188.24,"text":"那我問一下這波禿鷹你們做調查你們做精檢啊你會不會使出楊金龍三個方式說命他離開或命他馬上我現在我們前一次在說的時候啊就是說我們有觀察到這個但是我們也沒有說他就是禿鷹啦但是呢我們就說有這個跡象"},{"start":7189.741,"end":7206.65,"text":"疑似禿鷹疑似禿鷹的定義跟我所說的禿鷹疑似禿鷹你定義侵告我們應該說是他草匯如果再不走的時候但是這個我們就盯得很緊現在我們就是去我們昨天就開始我們就去專案檢查"},{"start":7213.815,"end":7230.714,"text":"對 我們就現在專案檢查以前彭總裁的方式就要拿出來了對 我覺得就是說我們有做這一點好 這個就希望看到有破裂的做法才會有遏制的效果啦好不好 總裁另外一個部分就教育您的部分"},{"start":7231.835,"end":7252.041,"text":"有關於這個總量管制的部分總量信用管制的部分我記得我們第一波的時候當初的基本職中率我去查過是36.64你開始啟動的時候我最近調查最新的是36.89你上一波的檢討的時候認為37.1啟動度還是太高對不對好現在當下來了我們現在時間點這個時間點不過是5月8號"},{"start":7261.294,"end":7289.381,"text":"到你六月的時候你監視還有一段時間對如果按照這種抖降的趨勢的話他Maybe是有可能是低於第一波的這個時間點你會不會重新做一些政策上的考量我們會看看啦因為我們給他要一年的時間去自己調整啦對 當然是要調先調整對對對我其實問一下你一直有一個量化考學的指標嘛現在如果低於第一波"},{"start":7290.181,"end":7301.511,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們都一直在強調我們會滾動式的檢討對 滾動式的檢討滾到後來你也是要好好的面對這個問題滾到現在已經快過36.64%差不多啦我們會再檢討繼續滾"},{"start":7310.158,"end":7312.499,"text":"按照這個趨勢快要滾下去了啦 滾到36.64的時候 你現在心裡頭的想法是什麼"},{"start":7332.543,"end":7360.222,"text":"六月份的李監事會不會討論大家都會看而且我還跟你對照一個史上最大的家屋潮單季喔破三萬一千戶這剛發生為什麼這樣講呢因為你的命令啊就像聖旨一樣銀行都要遵守後面就有軟刺在那邊每個月的房地產新作額度不能超過預款的這個這個還款的額度為限那其實啊有打到"},{"start":7361.502,"end":7382.394,"text":"誰 打到那種換屋主換屋主現在銀行都不想要借啦都要竊竊幹嘛有的沒有的這個其實民間是有怨言的然後這一波的三萬一千戶當中到底有多少戶你可能要請財政部 請金管會去了解一下不要打到無辜你可以打投資客但是你不要打到換屋主"},{"start":7383.234,"end":7402.736,"text":"我現在有聽到類似這樣的那個民怨出現所以說總裁我才特別來這邊提醒你法人的部分你要繼續原格我沒有意見法人要拿到資本槓桿操作的可能性很大而且他們還款能力很強我認為甚至要屈原的都OK但是你不要打到自然人你不要打到幻物族可以嗎"},{"start":7403.837,"end":7430.584,"text":"對 我們會檢討好 麻煩檢討一下好 麻煩檢討一下總裁我最後看到你這個報告當中寫到的這個所謂的主權基金三個來源三個來源 三種方式一 財政部發債二 財政部撥款三 財政部出資設資那軟刺我就問你了那個總裁稍坐一下軟刺好像已經講了三種方式了嘛結果軟刺你們財政部出來的這個報告實在是"},{"start":7432.785,"end":7441.132,"text":"老實講齁 以不變應萬變總裁稍等咧 我還有一個問題要請教咧 抱歉 我是偏要休訓一下以不變應萬變你們怎麼可以這樣子 部長去開亞營 啊你們就不變應萬變你們至少要跟他賴一下嘛你們這幾次的報告當中 從來沒有變而且 還是蘇建榮咧 財政部長呼籲咧你們前陣子財政部長咧"},{"start":7459.348,"end":7485.935,"text":"還說要主權基金要成立咧你們連跟他A口一下都沒有沒有跟他捧場一下都沒有這個跟委員報告這基本上對這個主權基金這一部分因為目前還在討論當中所以我們對啊你們後來就寫行政院指示啊你們連行政院還是交給你們做評估行政院指示你們連評估都沒有評估這一點我老實講很不滿啊好 請你回去請你回去我請那個總裁一下總裁我最後超時一分鐘一下"},{"start":7487.175,"end":7506.306,"text":"兩個模式啦 一個新加坡模式 一個韓國模式啦總裁 你比較該哪個模式如果依照我們現在的這個央行有2.7%的外匯存體委外操作的話大約金額有140到150億美元的話你這個模式聽起來是委託給主權基金操作我看起來好像是比較偏韓國模式的是不是"},{"start":7507.851,"end":7523.004,"text":"我想就是說主權基金的一個成立先就是說因為現在政府我聽他們就說現在要來確定就是說是不是要成立那成立了以後慢慢他的步驟他就慢慢的會明瞭出來"},{"start":7523.584,"end":7540.059,"text":"到最後資金的來源的時候我們再來我們再來用什麼確定就是說一定要設立那中央銀行呢用什麼方式來協助好就不管黑貓白貓只要會抓老鼠就好貓不管新加坡或韓國模式都可以是不是OK好謝謝總裁的回顧謝謝謝謝國國委員的資訊下回信羅明才委員資訊"},{"start":7554.798,"end":7556.279,"text":"我們今年的經濟成長率是多少?"},{"start":7577.458,"end":7598.949,"text":"主席好 我們是預估我是委員委員好 今年我們是有預估預估是3.14這是我們一處預估那假設新台幣兌美元匯率跌破澎湃南房線的話那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少"},{"start":7599.98,"end":7613.27,"text":"因為我們還會要看整個一個那個就是關稅的一個情形還有其他一些相關的因素在做評估如果就澎湃南的防線突破的話那你覺得對國內的經濟成長的影響情況是如何應該是會有我們這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點的"},{"start":7627.93,"end":7646.912,"text":"降低一點點,會不會降低0.1還是0.01降0.1%一個百分點百分之0.1,所以你們是有沙盤推演那請問澎淮南防線是新台幣多少對一美元多少,這個部分要"},{"start":7648.869,"end":7653.532,"text":"你剛剛怎麼會有零點零一的那個數字怎麼來的當然我不曉得他們怎麼做一個假設我不曉得他的假設"},{"start":7665.798,"end":7684.45,"text":"不過呢 我答覆委員你在說澎懷蘭黃線的時候呢我會有一個疑問我就說好像從來我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的黃線是在哪裡的所以那個委員在講說澎懷蘭的黃線的時候我就總覺得我就是怎麼會怎麼會有這個澎懷蘭黃線的這個字眼出現那你請幕僚"},{"start":7694.437,"end":7704.961,"text":"沒有啊中央銀行裡面的我們從來從不談都沒有就是說而且這個房間你如果說是這樣我再猜可能是那個事務僚查一下過去歷史的報章"},{"start":7711.844,"end":7736.977,"text":"大概都是市場就說彭永才的那個什麼黃線事實上我跟委員報告我跟委員誠實的報告人家當然就更沒有更不可能都沒有那這樣子總裁韓國的央行總裁李昌雍你熟悉嗎我熟悉啊"},{"start":7737.857,"end":7750.785,"text":"他為什麼說這一波亞幣的大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力啊我這個前幾個委員都問過了你怎麼回答不是我怎麼回答因為他講了這個的時候有很多人確定包括學者有去"},{"start":7760.951,"end":7779.482,"text":"包括就是說他們去從他的講話裡面去好好的這個是韓國人的去翻譯好好的翻譯說這個報導跟他所說的是根本就是說差距很大所以又是一場誤會我也不敢這麼說因為我不曉得韓語一場誤會就是一場夢啦可是總裁如果說委員要做這樣的一個說法的話我也贊同"},{"start":7789.749,"end":7805.177,"text":"你覺得這個是一場夢那總是要有夢醒時刻啊夢醒時分就是總裁你在前幾天我看到你大家都那麼熟我覺得你有苦難掩所以我剛剛所以我剛剛我就說一開始的時候我有一個澄清有一個聲明澄清就是說"},{"start":7816.903,"end":7825.609,"text":"因為我的口才不好所以有些時候講話我講話的時候會結結巴巴他們都把他解釋說我有藍炎之癮那我就馬上要澄清那確實沒有這回事然後他又說因為有藍炎之癮所以我不善於說謊這個說謊又把他放進來確實沒有這回事那總裁如果你沒有藍炎之癮的話"},{"start":7847.803,"end":7873.454,"text":"看強美元還是看弱美元所以我剛剛就又再回答了我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元那只有一個財政部長就前任的財政部長他稍微改口他認為說匯率是由市場供需來決定沒有所謂的強勢美元只有弱勢美元總裁就聽聽就好了"},{"start":7877.413,"end":7884.22,"text":"現在你說的也不算葉門說的也不算現在全世界只有一個人說的算我同意你的說法川普說了才算川普為了要讓美國偉大那你覺得美國為了走勢會強勢嗎"},{"start":7899.336,"end":7902.177,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我的邏輯啦我請教嘛總裁他如果說你是說可能他強勢好那如果美元如果強勢的話那請問美國怎麼樣偉大美國製造的東西他怎麼賣出口啊沒有出口他怎麼製造順差啊"},{"start":7920.765,"end":7941.116,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯那我想請問一下總裁就是說你現在外匯存底是跟2300萬的國民息息相關你保管處理這些資產央行中央銀行法的第二條寫得很清楚有一條是什麼"},{"start":7942.276,"end":7958.584,"text":"會不會要維持穩定嘛對 那既然要維持穩定你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面在我兩年前三年前我就建議啊總裁你考不考慮買一些比特幣那時候是一個是六千塊美金啊"},{"start":7959.284,"end":7982.942,"text":"我還曾經多次的建議央行不論是在這邊或在文園我說這個黃金看起來閃閃發光每盎司是一千兩百七十塊的時候我說那可不可以說基建賣幾百個賣五百個因為你們那個台灣銀行有一個什麼楊天立不是承認部的"},{"start":7983.903,"end":7992.548,"text":"那個黃金網子啊他們都有研究我都請教了所以假設1780塊1270塊每盎司的時候你買進1000億台幣那1000億的話"},{"start":8003.895,"end":8010.94,"text":"請問總裁,今天的話你等於是賺了多少錢?是啦,我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":8023.83,"end":8045.469,"text":"總裁那個委員好 我要答問你兩個問題啦兩個 第一個第一個呢 你就說那個為什麼不買比特幣不買黃金那我上次事實上呢 委員啊上一次呢 也回答 也提問了這個 槌尋了這個問題那我也就是說 我非常佩服委員的"},{"start":8047.029,"end":8068.737,"text":"的遠見但是呢我就說從中央銀行的一個manage叫我們外存體的一個準則來看的話那又是另外一回事我記得我有做這樣的一個說明第一個我要謝謝我就佩服你啊第一個我謝謝總裁對我的佩服我也接受嘛"},{"start":8069.557,"end":8083.915,"text":"可是面對外在情懷的變化我要提醒總裁全世界包括日本包括挪威包括很多國家現在美國公債的部分他們全部開始套跑一步一步的解決請問"},{"start":8089.201,"end":8103.395,"text":"請問總裁你對於央行現在所持有的美國公債你會不會採取減持的動作你現在那個委員你又再講就是說92%的我們都持有公債不對"},{"start":8104.517,"end":8105.838,"text":"副總裁講的不是我講的嗎副總裁講92他說80幾減少了啦92現在剩80幾"},{"start":8121.838,"end":8129.225,"text":"所以我也不必要再重複不過呢我跟委員報告啦至於就是說你說我們也回答啦就是說要調整中央銀行要調整我們都是很靈活的我們現在手上有沒有人民幣我們也有一些幾%"},{"start":8147.706,"end":8171.682,"text":"不高你為什麼不高一點呢因為他的利率現在第一個我要說明的就是說第一個人民幣我們為什麼握有人幣最主要是因為我們台商跟台商他有人民幣的需求他的settlement需要到人民幣所以他的一個流動性我們必須要我們必須要握有這樣的一個流動性這是第一點"},{"start":8172.542,"end":8191.163,"text":"但是呢我們也不能就說我們隨時我就像你說的啊我們隨時在調整你看看那個人民幣的利率一直掉啊利率一直掉你沒有發現到嗎那美國的利率會不會掉目前他還是點幾啊可是下個月呢"},{"start":8192.145,"end":8203.397,"text":"我不曉得那這樣子總統我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵今年美國的利率一定會往下調這個我想我不必要我們不用賭我來請你一碗牛肉麵我們不用賭那你請我我來請大家"},{"start":8214.168,"end":8236.366,"text":"那個因為時間關係最後就問一下謝謝楊總裁我問一下那個財政部那個阮市長那你每次官基金啟動都是互足有功啊都穩住了那你現在其實目前進場大概多少金額這個包委員這個不方便在這邊說明但是私底下我再那這次應該也會賺錢吧會不會"},{"start":8239.149,"end":8256.16,"text":"國安基金不是以賺錢為目的啦我想委員很清楚嘛我們最主要是要穩定股價我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電因為畢竟他的權值比較高好 謝謝 那請國發會那我就要請一下那個高副主委我們手上很多的台積電"},{"start":8258.683,"end":8273.449,"text":"從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過沒有一張都沒賣是因為他是我們的護國神山所以不會賣基本上因為是我們的關鍵產業可是我們的護國神山已經變成美積電了"},{"start":8275.245,"end":8278.829,"text":"不會所以台積電會守住會不會跌我們對台積電有充分的信心"},{"start":8294.71,"end":8315.769,"text":"我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信息另外一個就是國發基金現在整個加起來總市值是多少兩兆 其實我們的資產有兩兆有兩兆 對去年表現的情況是平均的嗎我們營養有三百多億 去年OK 好 謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝林平強委員的質詢我們就要休息十分鐘"},{"start":8955.492,"end":8959.976,"text":"好 現在我們報告我們繼續開會下一位請李燕秀委員質詢請我是不是可以請總裁總裁"},{"start":8978.286,"end":9006.886,"text":"您很早午安 總裁這一連串辛苦了最近非常非常辛苦您辛苦 我們中小企業更辛苦所以這個議題實在是太重要總裁 這個五月初的兩天時間我們新台幣升值10%雖然剛才你回覆幾位委員說沒有所謂的洋金農防線沒有但是兩天升10%是總裁 你自己對於這個數字你有沒有非常驚訝"},{"start":9008.642,"end":9027.743,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的有沒有surprise兩天升10%你突然看到連續兩天升10%你是不是 我想喔 我想喔有沒有措手不及第一個就市場的一個觀點來看就像純如那個 就有一個shock"},{"start":9028.773,"end":9031.738,"text":"是一個shock但是就中央銀行的立場來看不是說立場因為我們時常在觀看這個市場所以市場的波動有些時候的波動比這個多還大的"},{"start":9042.281,"end":9044.623,"text":"不過委員 我跟您報告就是說即使是這兩天做比較大的"},{"start":9059.494,"end":9082.36,"text":"波動但是呢他釋放出來的一個釋放出來的一個能量呢讓後面這邊呢他的一個市場呢就回歸比較正常我覺得這個也是他另一方面的一個正面的一個看法我不是來跟你吵架這整件事情對台灣台灣中小企業占全台灣的98%"},{"start":9084.961,"end":9105.644,"text":"我們雇用的員工佔將近八成很多中小企業朋友跟我講只做進出口他說他什麼都沒做一下子我們中小企業很多都是我們都講毛三道是利率大概只有3%到4%的毛利率而已什麼都不做就損失一兩千萬他可能第一季或上半年"},{"start":9106.425,"end":9110.389,"text":"他本來預估賺的錢就全部都吐出去甚至在財務槓桿上他本來要付錢給上游廠商一下子少了那麼多錢他借錢來周轉你即便後續有什麼補充政府有什麼措施跟政府借錢是要還的不用還的但是"},{"start":9125.945,"end":9143.039,"text":"一下子兩天的利率升到10%對我們中小企業是嚴重的衝擊否則你不會在那一天下午四點半馬上開了記者會所以你剛才回應說對市場來說可能是surprise那"},{"start":9144.438,"end":9166.329,"text":"難道對我們來說沒有 對您來說沒有措手不及嗎你沒有措手不及 怎麼會下午四點漫開記者館所以 我才會跟委員報告嘛就是說事實上呢 專業銀行也不是說沒有事實的介入來調解啦只是說是因為它的市場的"},{"start":9168.029,"end":9171.992,"text":"不理性的預警我都同意市場我們有一些調節總裁我再問一件事情這個衝擊對我們中小企業影響太大有些小的進出口廠商一下子"},{"start":9187.521,"end":9205.666,"text":"萬一現在什麼都沒做就損失一兩千萬所以你個人認為你最近無論賴總統也好我們各縣市首長或者我們重要的部會跟財經有關的你覺得中小企業那個區間到底我們的台我們的升值多少30塊28塊31塊什麼樣是一個比較合理或比較好的一個區間數字"},{"start":9214.289,"end":9230.461,"text":"他們能夠承受的,你知道我的意思嗎?因為我們台灣靠進出口,90%都是中小企業所以我問你,什麼是一個比較合理的一個...我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":9233.843,"end":9244.843,"text":"事實上呢 我剛剛也跟其他的委員 我也說明了30塊的左右的這個價位呢 也不是第一次啦我知道 但以前就好幾次了"},{"start":9245.947,"end":9246.667,"text":"我跟委員報告說實在的"},{"start":9274.295,"end":9280.346,"text":"每一家的企業它對匯率的一個承受的程度不一樣"},{"start":9281.89,"end":9298.526,"text":"總裁那你就在浪費我的時間政府應該有一個比較理想的數字就是說理想的數字對大多數的我們還就是說會試是由供需來決定的你如果說是像這樣的話我就說我來報個名牌他30塊總裁你不願意講沒關係啦"},{"start":9306.192,"end":9330.847,"text":"我只覺得你心裡應該要有一個你不能講也好或你不願意講也好但是我覺得你心裡應該是要有一個什麼樣的一個數字對我們中小企業是一個衝擊不會太大這我要提醒你的我要轉到我的第二個問題 仲裁94歲的索羅斯他有一個外號你應該非常清楚叫金融巨噩他的量子基金是全世界最有名的對沖基金"},{"start":9331.587,"end":9335.992,"text":"那在97年當時1997年的時候你當時是剛從倫敦回到我們央行擔任行務委員所以你應該對當時的對沖基金量子基金應該是非常熟悉當然這次"},{"start":9346.804,"end":9368.163,"text":"現在的這一次的禿鷹的狀況也好跟當時1997年狀況有很大的不同剛才結委委員也問了一些問題但我想很具體的問就是說總裁因為環境不一樣這跟1997年環境不一樣這一波的禿鷹的炒匯從匯市到底賺了多少錢"},{"start":9371.101,"end":9389.837,"text":"我說實在的就是說因為我在記者會裡面呢我提到了tune這兩個字所以提到這兩個字的時候呢所以才有媒體報導了就是說把這個tune變成好像是一個重點事實上呢我當時呢我只是說"},{"start":9391.198,"end":9405.268,"text":"我們在就是說在這個波動的過程當中我們也發現了就是說外資呢他進來他沒有買股他沒有買股我直接再問你是拖音還是用這個對沖基金在後面炒孔"},{"start":9406.169,"end":9410.574,"text":"你所知道 因為你有說 你在媒體上你有說你請他出去所以現在就是說 到底你說你有查到 你也請他出去 你有查決那到底他獲利了結多少 到底是秃嬰還是對沖基金有好幾個對沖基金嗎不是 我跟委員報告啦 就是說"},{"start":9429.255,"end":9440.084,"text":"這個資金進來了以後parking就一兩天的時候呢我們就趕快第一個我們會告訴他你如果沒有買股票的時候你就趕快出去那你如果說進來的話"},{"start":9443.607,"end":9458.159,"text":"他是好幾個對沖基金嗎那我只能說我的類似但是我怎麼能說他就是禿鷹我知道那他是用對沖基金嗎沒關係總裁我知道好來那到底他是好幾個對沖基金還是只有一個對沖基金沒有啦我們看到了那個資金那麼龐大我們只是"},{"start":9468.688,"end":9477.294,"text":"跟Custodian就是我們的保管銀行我們告訴他你就是只有大德勸說因為我們以前也都是說你要進來你就是要買股票"},{"start":9485.74,"end":9486.941,"text":"總裁 我知道對於禿鷹的判斷標準 他要進來就趕快買股 獲利了結就趕快請他出去"},{"start":9508.743,"end":9521.31,"text":"但是我們現在只有道德勸說這件事情我覺得恐怕是不夠因為外界包括媒體都笑我們說我們只能道德勸說只剩下一張嘴所以未來我們會不會訂定規則或法則來去對於就是你資金進來你又不買股賺了錢你也不趕快出去我們應該要有一個規範出來你會不會制定這樣的一個規範"},{"start":9535.539,"end":9549.814,"text":"我覺得就是說第一個我們如果跟他的Custodian 我們有一個很好的一個很密切的一個協調 我覺得這樣也是足夠啦"},{"start":9550.755,"end":9556.358,"text":"所以不打限制立法則不打限制立規範你這樣的話你會嚇跑外資因為我們都好不容易就說我們市場都是那麼的自由你是一個自由的氣氛那我就只能請總裁那你最後的任務就沒有殺掉那以後他不敢進來好 總裁我知道所以未來你就只能持續的道德勸說不是說道德勸說我們密切觀察"},{"start":9578.869,"end":9603.175,"text":"那如果說你這樣的話 那所以我就說我們會密切的跟那個Custodian那總裁我請問這一波的外資的規模 進來炒貨的規模到底有多大數字有多大你不能講我也不便跟委員報告好 那另外一個 我們現在央行要啟動經營檢我們什麼時候會啟動我們昨天就啟動了好 預計執行多久我們至少 我們今天還是去啦"},{"start":9604.429,"end":9621.056,"text":"我們今天也去啦時間多久沒有 我們也沒有就說我們看看情況如何如果說覺得市場都已經會平靜而且是市場的秩序都已經良好的時候我們為什麼要一定查下去如果這個炒賣的對象也包含我們的進口廠商我們會怎麼處理對 我們也會對這個進出口廠商我知道 那如果有發現也有我們的進出口廠商會怎麼處理這個呢"},{"start":9629.959,"end":9643.447,"text":"這個呢我們對銀行因為銀行他要KYC而且我們相關的規定那這個是可以的你就跟財政部連結沒有不必要我們就本身就可以好謝謝謝謝總裁好謝謝李委員之請下一位請鍾嘉斌李昆哲委員之請請"},{"start":9658.919,"end":9668.351,"text":"謝謝主席我們先讓總裁喝口水可以嗎好 那就請總裁總裁請喝完水就可以上來"},{"start":9680.441,"end":9705.588,"text":"委員早總裁好 辛苦了謝謝那當然大家都很關心說最近這個台北升職的問題那剛剛很多委員也都有在問了那這個也因為情況波動比較大升職的力道比較大那所以在5月5號的時候包含總統跟總裁都出來這個講話啦總統是用錄影的方式那總裁是簽字召開這個記者會那我有看到這個總統他有特別提到說"},{"start":9706.548,"end":9730.168,"text":"第一個它可能是市場預期的心理第二個可能是不實的訊息企圖來操縱市場那我先想請教一下這個總裁那總統所說的這個市場的預期的心理是指什麼預期台幣會升值對啦所以我們就是說我們在這個我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面我們的第六點就講得很清楚"},{"start":9730.828,"end":9756.176,"text":"我們講得很清楚就是說我們欲請市場評論人員切勿以臆測的方式評論國內會市相關議題避免影響國內會市的秩序及穩定這個我有看到這個所以我們裡面是寫的稍微比較溫和一點事實上我們也希望他們節制啦不要導致這個市場的非理性的預期那非理性的預期會導致兩個現象"},{"start":9757.816,"end":9771.832,"text":"第一個現象就是說市場秩序會亂掉第二個會不穩定波及到我們的經濟的層面中央銀行要維持市場秩序的職者變得更困難這是第一點"},{"start":9772.813,"end":9793.066,"text":"第二點我們也呼籲就是說我們的廠商你也不必要太親信的這些的市場的謠言那這樣的話呢你一直拋拋拋中央銀行我們也是我們也是盡我們的職責我們要來調整但是呢因為他的預期心理太強了所以呢我們也就呼籲我們的廠商呢你也要"},{"start":9793.786,"end":9816.389,"text":"也要注意因為到最後你如果說一直在啪啪啪的時候呢到最後呢你會傷到我我問一下總裁大概哪時候開始觀察到台幣升值的力道開始逐漸加強事實上呢4月30號左右就大概就所以呢所以剛剛有一個委員我覺得他的建議也很好啦"},{"start":9816.889,"end":9837.603,"text":"就是說事實上這個運量新台幣升值的預期事實上在4月中以後事實上在4月8號以後就是川普的4月2號以後大概就是慢慢的慢慢你看看就是說這個評論員就是說會在到哪裡啊用大麥克的指數啊什麼的所以那個時候就是開始在運量了"},{"start":9847.149,"end":9871.159,"text":"對啊 那時候就開始在講台幣會不斷的升值甚至有人提到說九十幾塊所以呢 我剛剛那個委員就說建議我們就是說這個新興之火啊 也應該要趕快撲滅那這個就當然了就是說 我們認為就是說這怎麼有可能怎麼有可能到那個總裁這樣講好像當時候央行有點輕忽了這種新興之火可以燎原的這個趨勢啊"},{"start":9872.259,"end":9887.67,"text":"當然啦 不過我們也是有私下跟這些評論員接觸啦希望他們不要這樣子啦但是已經造成了這個效果啦最後升到29.5%左右啊所以呢 也就是說 我說我們也會記取教訓啦對於這個新興之火我們也必須要立即的"},{"start":9896.736,"end":9913.885,"text":"我覺得這個教訓真的要繼續啦因為接下來我又看到說這個包含這個國民黨的主席啊他講說這個接下來不是只有關稅戰是貨幣戰然後他又講說那接下來呢可能在本週或是下週呢"},{"start":9915.165,"end":9932.611,"text":"這個我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告他說台灣一定會被列明為觀察名單而且是嚴重的觀察名單所以我是不曉得誰在講這個因為今天那這件事我就是要主要要總裁要注意對對對好那我也剛剛我也藉這個機會也在澄清了"},{"start":9933.231,"end":9954.376,"text":"所以我想委員給我讓我有這個機會再來重申就是說因為我們也有這個教訓所以你讓我有這個時間來說明第一個就是說嚴重的我不曉得是誰因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙因為要來趕趕是誰不管我就說事實上絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率"},{"start":9963.622,"end":9970.124,"text":"後來好像我看了那個小標題它是大標題是嚴重的匯率超重但是它的小標題裡面是講就是說嚴重的匯率的觀察列為嚴重的觀察名單但是沒有這回事不會有這回事"},{"start":9984.75,"end":10004.122,"text":"類似這一種的我敢這樣的澄清這是第一點第二點就是說又有市場的人士就是說六月的時候會有美債的危機所以我就說我必須要我剛剛的另外一個說明"},{"start":10005.283,"end":10020.28,"text":"5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們說的都事實事實上呢這個海湖的那個莊園的那個協定根本就是到目前為止都沒有這個我知道那個央行新聞稿都有寫但是我就是要提醒總裁要注意"},{"start":10021.261,"end":10039.273,"text":"就是說台幣的升值它其實也有脈絡可循你剛剛講說4月8號之後然後不斷在市場就有人放出這個消息出來那現在包含這一個連在野黨的黨主席都出來講說接下來就是貨幣戰了接下來台灣就會被列為這個嚴重的觀察名單了這個要注意啊"},{"start":10040.473,"end":10042.515,"text":"所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告但是裡面雖然是主權基金的一個議題但是呢"},{"start":10055.422,"end":10083.688,"text":"很大部分的委員都是對這個匯率有一些的關心那我覺得我也非常感謝蔡委會給我們這個機會除了我們在5月5號的時候那個記者會我們來澄清事實上這一次也是很好的機會讓我們再次的澄清那我請教一下總裁那您認為說這個台幣的合理匯率大概是"},{"start":10084.208,"end":10111.708,"text":"所以我還是就對這個來講的話我不能抱名牌啊事實上那個名牌不是名牌所以我就說事實上匯率是供需來決定的它有上有下你現在就是說是在升但是有一天有一天它會扁啊對不對所以也不要就是說它會升到什麼樣才是合理的Who knows誰曉得"},{"start":10112.65,"end":10113.533,"text":"但是我要強調的就是說"},{"start":10116.175,"end":10145.895,"text":"本波的新台幣的升值的非理性的預期心理到目前呢是so far so good已經就把那個負的能量已經釋放出來so far so good就對了就是可以控制掌握就對了應該是我們的調解呢已經就是說幾乎是供需是平衡了所以我們的調解呢就不像前幾天這樣的那麼的辛苦所以呢我想呢我們在這邊再做一次澄清我是覺得是非常好的"},{"start":10146.135,"end":10171.298,"text":"好那我再問一下主權基金那這個主委院長他是比較積極的態度在推動這個主權基金那我也看到這一個央行的報告那我想請教一下那央行也是認為說是可以設主權基金但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了那你認為說主權基金規模大概要多大這個所以我就說嘛我還是覺得就是說"},{"start":10172.299,"end":10194.514,"text":"要設立主權基金這個是我們政府必須要他做的決定中央銀行應該就說所以很多市場很多都說以前都是中央銀行反對啦所以才沒辦法成立主權基金說實在不對我看你們是支持的嘛對阿但是就是設專法嘛而且不要動到外匯嘛對不對我們就說外匯"},{"start":10202.379,"end":10226.436,"text":"不能無償的撥用我們只是強調這裡所以也就是說成立主權基金這個是政府的事政府呢應該要怎麼來研議那至於我們中央銀行呢我們也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少啊那你要怎麼樣怎麼樣我覺得那個涉及到說它的這個主權基金的這個基金的來源啊是是是那我們提到就是跟財政部有相關的發債撥款"},{"start":10229.938,"end":10241.104,"text":"然後出資這都是跟財政部相關的啦那除了這個財政部之外那其他委員有提到說譬如說四大基金也有提到國發基金那他們適合投資嗎所以國發基金有他們的立場"},{"start":10245.506,"end":10273.698,"text":"他的意見他真正的意見是怎麼樣他們也要必須要再嚴厲那至於四大基金他們態度是如何他們自己也要就是說因應如果說政府要成立主權基金的時候他們要如何來協助假設說政府是這樣但是呢決定都是由他們的中央銀行不能就說他一定要加入中央銀行沒有這個權利確實都沒有這個權利好那我最後一點時間就請這個國發會的這個副主委好了"},{"start":10274.598,"end":10293.312,"text":"因為我剛剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題總裁先請回好了那國發會對於這個設立主權基建的態度是怎麼樣我想剛剛總裁也說明了我們建議還是用專法的方式來做那基金的來源呢"},{"start":10294.011,"end":10315.476,"text":"資金的來源 齊總才有講到可以用發債的方式用發債的方式所以國發委認為說用發債方式是一個做的是國庫撥補其實有 因為到時候會成立一個專案小組我們會就資金來源的投措的方式還有資金的金額等等我們會進行相關的討論那不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了"},{"start":10318.678,"end":10326.422,"text":"就是如果發債的話,有可能市場基金也可以購買債券還有很多方式可以來運用"},{"start":10349.901,"end":10363.234,"text":"主席在場的委員先進 列席的政府相關所長 官員會長 公共夥伴記者媒體女士先生有請我們中央銀行楊總裁國發會的高副主委還有邀請勞動部的理事長各位長官請中央人早"},{"start":10372.083,"end":10382.601,"text":"總裁好 副主委好 次長好今天主題呢 籌建主權基金專法專責專才 樣好任務強化關注就業薪資來 先請教總裁是你有宗教信仰嗎"},{"start":10384.654,"end":10408.193,"text":"我覺得每一個人都要有宗教信仰那你知道台灣社會有兩種非宗教信仰嗎我講給你聽上班族有土地信仰相信房地產只會漲產業界有一個央行信仰相信央行台幣主升不主貶你同意嗎我覺得房地產只會漲央行信仰你同意嗎"},{"start":10409.202,"end":10433.662,"text":"有這樣的央行信仰嗎沒有啊因為這個這是明顯的台幣升了嘛對不對你看我們前一波我們才逐點啊所以央行信仰呢被一個修正了我們央行還是會有升有貶的對對對但是呢過去這個央行信仰在的時間啊我們的產業界我們的壽險界因為這個信仰所以呢這邊壽險業他們的美金的避險做得不夠"},{"start":10434.463,"end":10447.653,"text":"所以這連續幾天的升值他們就嘩嘩叫但是我們來看一下我比較驚訝的坦白說這個過程迅速的升值有包有扁但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定因為您提到了防止突襲"},{"start":10450.035,"end":10478.414,"text":"這在過去台幣緩慢升值的信仰當中給很多人有可乘之機這次突破傳統的想法認為央行就算是會升也是慢慢的升結果沒有這樣的情況所以出乎人家意料破除人家的央行信仰我覺得這個值得肯定謝謝 非常謝謝這個對我們是一個很大的鼓勵但是我有一個疑惑為什麼你們央行表示台幣升值不影響央行的腳庫盈餘"},{"start":10480.055,"end":10508.536,"text":"他說報紙上報導台幣升值不會影響央行的損益淨值跟腳庫盈餘這怎麼回事啊我跟委員報告我很簡單的講就是說因為我們匯率就是說匯率會有這樣的一個如果說貶值的時候呢貶值的時候呢我們的現在升值我們貶值的時候呢升值的時候你的盈餘會不會縮水我們就有盈餘對上一上一上一陣子我們到一兆多現在台幣升值你的盈餘會不會縮水"},{"start":10509.637,"end":10536.095,"text":"不會 因為為什麼 因為這個那盈餘怎麼來的不 我先來說我先問你腳褲盈餘怎麼來的我們腳褲的盈餘就是我們的收益啊你們的收益怎麼來的 主要收益在哪裡我們收益的就是投資各個幣別的 是嗎我們來看一下 各個幣別的啊央行握有美債超過4600多億對不對如果台幣升值了你這樣的一個透過美債持有美債的收益就會縮水嘛 是不是這樣子是不是這樣 同不同意"},{"start":10537.034,"end":10542.1,"text":"那今天的而且你還不是一次喔國庫金基努啊央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過兩千億請問一下盈餘繳庫"},{"start":10547.947,"end":10569.101,"text":"腳褲盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎是啊沒有錯啊是央行的錢喔不是外匯存底外匯存底是全民的資產對啦沒有錯啊那怎麼是央行的錢因為我們也好既然央行用來賺腳褲盈餘的錢是外匯存底持有的美債為主那請問一下你用大家的錢賺的錢腳褲盈餘是你央行的經營目標嗎"},{"start":10572.023,"end":10587.992,"text":"沒有不是你的目標嗎對沒有那很奇怪耶但是每次我聽你們央行在講的好像把腳褲盈餘神聖不可侵犯啊沒有如果要維持這個腳褲盈餘沒有財政部同意嗎沒有財政部市長絕對沒有你們同意嗎財政部市長對沒有沒有以後你們腳褲盈餘變少了財政部不會講話嗎絕對沒有請問市長央行的盈餘腳褲是他的使命嗎"},{"start":10600.516,"end":10624.653,"text":"我就了解各國的央行幾乎都會把那英語都會攪哭了好來我們看各國的你既然講到來央行總裁看一下這是美國的聯準會他說他的使命是有效促進充分就業為什麼請勞動部長來市長來物價穩定和長期利率的適度央行法寫什麼金融穩定健全銀行幣值的穩定以及經濟發展"},{"start":10626.374,"end":10646.896,"text":"有沒有寫到腳步盈餘?沒有那請問一下美國的聯準會關心的問題央行有沒有關心就業跟物價?你關不關心就業跟物價?剛剛財政部長說各國的央行都有做的事情那我想我們台灣的央行也會做你有關心物價跟就業嗎?"},{"start":10649.218,"end":10665.306,"text":"我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊啦對內對外穩定因為購買力的問題後面再講往下看但是呢我們過去本席也跟很多委員有提過立法院也曾經多次提過要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金你還記得吧"},{"start":10666.026,"end":10688.547,"text":"您是不是堅定的反對對但是你現在堅決反對但是現在堅持不反對沒有你從堅決反對到堅持不反對我們堅決反對是說無償的不用我們是堅決反對但是你不是反對拿外匯存底就對了你的反對是反對不是反對拿外匯存底為什麼"},{"start":10689.847,"end":10718.74,"text":"因為其他的國家都是用外匯存體做沒有韓國就是嘛對不對沒有不是我來問你韓國是不是用外匯存體我說韓國是用外匯存體委託他對委託他嘛那委託呢往下看好過去堅持反對現在堅持不反對你堅持什麼沒有第一主權基金未來不虧央行款對不對對第二個可以用外匯存體但是要有償使用對不對"},{"start":10720.37,"end":10742.604,"text":"第三要有專法這是你的堅持嘛堅持不歸央行款堅持外匯存體要有償使用堅持要有專法是不是這樣子所以我說嘛過去你堅決反對大家誤會你了嘛你不是堅決反對你是堅持但不反對來往下看那現在呢我們財政部說成立主權接近要設定專法來次長為什麼要有專法"},{"start":10745.201,"end":10769.41,"text":"基本上因為他是一個創富基金創富基金所以他要監督因為他的風險比較高有賺有虧所以有賺有虧有風險但不能說賺就是有功賠就是要法要專法要依法來管不是依盈虧賺賠來管專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管是依法來管理"},{"start":10773.712,"end":10785.535,"text":"要對依法來觀察好 那這也同意說 違不宜由外匯子體直接無藏不用那請問我們國防外部主委你們這個議題是誰在主管主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究"},{"start":10786.826,"end":10805.192,"text":"現在就是國發會嘛目前還沒有定案是有哪一個主管機關我們猜應該是國發會管啊對 還是要等行政院決定那假設未來國發會管來 請問一下剛剛我們總裁跟財政部長說的外匯存體要怎麼有償的使用"},{"start":10806.517,"end":10826.237,"text":"基本上如果按照那個新加坡的例子的話是他們是用發債的方式那是發債 我說外匯存底呢 有啥使用發債 然後呢他們就是外匯存底 有部分是他們是做財務性的操作那他就可以外匯存底 跟央行拿外匯存底使用後要付央行錢 簡單講是這樣"},{"start":10827.859,"end":10854.029,"text":"就是說其實因為央行裡面它基本上來我請問一下總裁如果要央行要有償使用我想就是說基本上用你的外匯存頂你管外匯存頂要多少錢新加坡它如果說要用動用我問新加坡我說你說的有償使用使用央行管你的外匯存頂要多少錢就是兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說你要買匯你要跟專營買匯這個才有償對不對"},{"start":10857.23,"end":10877.247,"text":"所以央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了所以未來我們就這樣結論了主權基金成立之後他的盈餘他負責繳庫因為怎麼樣本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢繳庫的錢現在換成主權基金跟你有償使用後他負責錢那請問是你繼續繳庫還是他來繳庫"},{"start":10880.657,"end":10883.739,"text":"你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底而"},{"start":10900.507,"end":10918.974,"text":"有收益要繳庫沒有就是我們的外匯存底就還是主席不要緊張但是他現在就是說他如果說是用新台幣來跟我們買的時候我簡單問你如果未來主席願意成立動用到你的外匯存底你會收到他付的錢對不對這個是不是你的盈餘要繳庫你說什麼"},{"start":10921.974,"end":10943.563,"text":"我已經問了三次了 再說一次你竟然主張外匯存底使用 主均均使用要有償不管他用什麼方式 你會有一筆錢 有一筆收益嘛這個收益就是你要小庫的嘛 對不對那以後這個錢呢 多或少就不那麼重要了嘛至少不是你的使命嘛 你的使命怎麼樣要不要促進充分就業 沒有錯 那請問次長 理事長"},{"start":10947.384,"end":10976.232,"text":"那你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯準會一樣關心就業也關心我們的薪資水平呢?保偉我了解美國的Faith他是很關心就業水準特別是失業率是他們的一個重要的衡量指標是那我覺得我想我們的央行他本於他的職權也是會關注這一塊好也會關注期待啦我們下一頁因為時間關係好央行怎麼保持我們新台幣的幣值穩定第一個你要匯率"},{"start":10977.048,"end":10992.17,"text":"就是對美金的匯率對不對這是我們對外國財貨的購買力第二個是我們的CPI我們的物價指數物價不能太上漲不能購買力會下降是不是那請問央行為了維持幣值穩定台幣的主升容易還是主貶容易"},{"start":10993.581,"end":11006.648,"text":"我想呢兩個都不太容易啦如果比較起來,你老師問我兩個的答案比較起來哪個比較容易比較起來的時候呢,我覺得主生比較難主生比較難,來我們看一下"},{"start":11008.106,"end":11028.701,"text":"今天如果美金要貶值你要防止台幣升值你只要釋出台幣就好了嘛你發行國庫券從銀行把新台幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新台幣供給台幣會不會升值你要怎麼阻止台幣貶值你能夠阻止台幣貶值嗎你阻止台幣貶值要拋售美金啊對不對"},{"start":11031.663,"end":11045.795,"text":"你的美金如果有限 你拋售能力有限但是台幣 竹餅權 台幣竹餅在你手上對啦 那個委員這樣講的話那我稍微修改我的答案啦事實上呢 竹生跟竹餅都不大容易啦"},{"start":11051.7,"end":11065.618,"text":"因為主生容易 所以你只要發行新台幣 擴大新台幣就好了不加薪 結果我們新台幣通過增加的結果我們的薪水沒有增加 物價是微微的上漲但是我們的房地產上漲了 往下看"},{"start":11066.739,"end":11074.263,"text":"這是一個很重要的資產負債表央行過去在2017年到2024年我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆我們的名目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5我們央行的資產負債表的佔比在我國的GDP從45上升到快80上升了33"},{"start":11086.269,"end":11101.616,"text":"美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3他從2007到2014他也只不過了他們的聯準會的資產副照表也不過的戰機率的戰品呢增加了不到20他目前的戰品只有25這什麼意思我們往下看"},{"start":11102.959,"end":11121.866,"text":"台美的貨幣擴張的規模台灣在最近7年來我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆增加20兆美國在上市的貨幣寬鬆時期也不過增加了3.5兆美金指標我們看一下台幣跟美國的比較是107.5兆對23.8兆請問一下李市長"},{"start":11126.087,"end":11142.735,"text":"您覺得貨幣擴張這麼多時間超過很多了時間超過很多了一天快結束了結束了結束了你覺得有可能的營養是什麼包委員你剛剛問的是往下一頁來如果基礎貨幣大幅上漲導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹你覺得對我們社信階級有什麼影響"},{"start":11149.181,"end":11167.036,"text":"就勞動部立場當然物價上漲勞工的實質薪資率就會那麼高那房地產上漲呢我要結論了我要結論了主席你剛剛突然站起來害我嚇一跳精神損壞前面兩分鐘沒有前面十幾分鐘了我已經給你十幾分鐘了可以了可以了不要兩分鐘了換接位好不好兩條前面的人繼續我把它做個結論嘛"},{"start":11169.578,"end":11188.675,"text":"結束了好不好結束了對不對我給你十二分鐘了你啊你剛剛八分鐘就站起來了我已經給你十二分鐘你不要這樣子了你請往前上一張以GDP的規模做比較過去台灣七年比美國規模還大的QE結果結論我要講出來的結論總裁請你注意一下拜託"},{"start":11189.736,"end":11204.284,"text":"如果要成立國家主權基金央行法的第二條你的經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業提高薪資水準以及物價穩定可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改"},{"start":11206.006,"end":11206.606,"text":"我試下來跟委員報告很細節的報告"},{"start":11232.988,"end":11240.252,"text":"我希望委員尊重主席 你超過20分鐘了 這個過分了吧站起來說我坐下來了啊你一定要這樣變嗎我站起來 你時間超過20分鐘 我一直讓你講站起來 我馬上坐下來啊哪有結束 再講20分鐘啊"},{"start":11256.783,"end":11264.39,"text":"我不尊重主席 這樣準備這麼多很好但是你要考慮其他人嘛 後面的人怎麼辦好 謝謝主席 邀請財政部委員好"},{"start":11279.546,"end":11300.541,"text":"市長好 針對於我們面臨的長期的人口老化以及財政壓力產業升級的需求那麼大家一直在討論設立主權基金所以本席首先要請教到底我們財政部有沒有做這樣子的一個評估跟規劃 請說明"},{"start":11302.622,"end":11327.627,"text":"這個基本上我們行政機關都有一些跨部會的協商已經開始在協商是嗎對那財政部一直都有參與財政部一直有參與那現在的方向呢現在當時是還沒有很確定的方向不過現在是大家比較偏向就是要成立從什麼時候開始大家偏向要成立"},{"start":11328.207,"end":11349.141,"text":"慢慢的,他覺得說有這個需求所以我們現在就是說如果要成立的話因為主權基金它是一個創富基金它是要投資很多的權益證券很多高風險的一些資產所以會有賺有虧所以基本上我們是希望說是要有共識而且要立專法"},{"start":11350.001,"end":11371.828,"text":"就有關的比如說裁員或者是立專法裁員來源那依照次長你剛才所說的也就是目前政府的方向是朝向要設的一個階段當中是嗎是會思考這個問題會思考這個問題那方向是朝這個方向"},{"start":11373.468,"end":11399.723,"text":"會研議它的可行性研議要設的可行性因為也有人說這個主權基金它是提升的資產操作的一個效率跟強化了整個政策性投資工具的重要手段那也看到目前全球大概有90多個主權基金它總管理的額度大概有8兆的美元"},{"start":11400.663,"end":11416.152,"text":"但是我們國家到目前為止當然您剛才的回答當中也就是說現在是朝這個藥舍的評估當中我這麼解讀正確吧是所以我們也考量我們現在現行的四大基金"},{"start":11417.032,"end":11435.039,"text":"我們現行的四大基金現在也沒有一個統一的戰略架構沒有一個統一的戰略架構所以你們現在在討論這一些但是本身還是要跟你討論也就是說我們目前為止你們設的可行性評估"},{"start":11436.039,"end":11451.977,"text":"是朝要設的方向那但是在主權基金如果順利之後他會不會排擠到現行的其他各項的這個基金來源就證如剛剛央行我們一直在聽取的從以前他們所謂的還不是很贊成"},{"start":11456.241,"end":11468.258,"text":"到現在也是模糊的空間所以這其中還是有很多必須要去釐清楚跟論述所以特別強調也就是說成立之後當然會不會排擠到現行的各項的基金財源"},{"start":11472.884,"end":11495.019,"text":"如果是從現在其他國家的經驗來看主權基金他投資的方向除了國內的市場之外最主要著重的是國際市場所以在這種情況之下目前的世大基金大概比較著重的是國內的市場所以基本上應該是會相輔相成不會有互相矛盾的問題"},{"start":11495.879,"end":11498.644,"text":"不會有矛盾的這個問題那請教次長在這個議題當中你們設定的KPI時間點會預估落點在什麼時候設 或者是不設"},{"start":11509.138,"end":11527.15,"text":"這個跟委員報告 基本上我們要配合行政院的政策基本上我們財政部沒辦法因為這是跨部會的事因為你們都參與其中在討論嗎對 這跨部會的事所以還沒有定點在什麼時間要配合行政院的政策配合行政院的政策好 李警衛最後本期邀請央行"},{"start":11538.487,"end":11547.895,"text":"我本席辦公室在兩週前就已經關切的我們外資的熱錢進出台灣市場的潛在異常情況當時詢問關於整個資金流動的監理作為一直到了5月6號 您終於說了已發現禿鷹的蹤跡"},{"start":11561.667,"end":11576.758,"text":"而且他出去時是慢吞吞那外匯的這個蔡局長他也進一步表示近期有針對於保管銀行以及遠期外匯避險廠商啟動了全面的一個徹查"},{"start":11577.558,"end":11603.896,"text":"那麼央行本身也掌控了熱錢流入流出的即時動態那在即時介入防範這個炒匯套利跟違反的停泊行為那反觀本期在兩週前就已經提示出但是我們到現在才啟動專案精檢那是不是我們整個在制度面裡頭有明顯的這個落後 請說明"},{"start":11606.638,"end":11610.161,"text":"對 我想委員就是說是不是我們明顯的落後應該是還好啦我們如果說就我們自己的一個判斷來講的話 還好啦沒有就是說是明顯的落後啦沒有明顯 就算還好 還好就是還是"},{"start":11626.155,"end":11632.378,"text":"有討論的空間不是就是說我所謂的還好我現在就是說所謂的還好就是說這個議題我們看到的時候呢我們馬上就去注意它了然後呢我們第二個呢我們就趕快配合就是說金錢去更深入的了解所以我覺得到目前為止經過幾天了以後呢我們也會覺得我們都覺得就是說外資呢進來呢他買股票呢"},{"start":11654.83,"end":11674.642,"text":"他就買股票了所以沒有就像我們上一次所發現到的他進來了以後他就parking在那邊所以呢我才會就是說這個parking在那邊停泊一週以上是屬於不正常的對不對以在這個目前的情況來講的話呢停泊在那邊一週我是覺得不正常"},{"start":11675.282,"end":11694.116,"text":"是不正常的所以我們本來就是設定如此是不正常的所以我們在這個屯博天書當然我們已經很明顯的設定你認為不正常就是一週很清楚這個時間點所以在我們的處置機制這個機制裡頭我們更應當要嚴謹更應當要嚴謹我們有如同委員所說的我們是會更嚴謹更嚴謹一定要更嚴謹謝謝會會會謝謝"},{"start":11704.485,"end":11706.087,"text":"我們現在可以發放便當需要的人可以啟用總裁請"},{"start":11734.424,"end":11754.769,"text":"我想這兩天大家對台幣的匯率都非常的關心你也講了非常多的話它的升值快速到沒有辦法承擔的原因是它升太快你可以同意嗎因為短短幾天大幅升值的狀況然後沒有看到央行出手所以大家對央行有一些疑慮我想問一下原因找到了沒"},{"start":11755.249,"end":11771.526,"text":"我們也沒有就是說沒有出手啦 是有啦原因找到了沒原因最主要的還是就是說他的預計是太強了然後美國沒有施壓嘛然後台灣央行也沒有介入嘛答案是這樣 是嗎"},{"start":11772.407,"end":11783.323,"text":"所有的沒有介入,你的意思是說我們沒有適度調節嗎?你們沒有調整嗎?有啊,我沒有調整我沒有施壓,這個我一直在澄清所以總裁我可以說30塊現在熟住了嗎?"},{"start":11787.84,"end":11795.985,"text":"匯率呢我只能跟委員報告就是說匯率有聲有扁但目前是供需你不會說30塊叫做楊金龍防線沒有也不會所以長期會怎樣你的判斷是什麼"},{"start":11804.594,"end":11812.185,"text":"匯率還是供需決定啊有升有貶啊升的時候呢全世界都知道川普在玩關稅遊戲啦關稅遊戲這個玩下去你覺得長期會怎麼樣"},{"start":11818.192,"end":11832.617,"text":"我覺得美國他有很多的金融工具他有關稅 他有美元 他最大的還有白債所以我才會說現在目前他是已經針對關稅來沒有報費率的問題"},{"start":11838.639,"end":11852.493,"text":"你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題但是沒有沒有總裁很簡單我想問個簡單的問題是在台美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙或者是該不該在裡面不會不會"},{"start":11854.054,"end":11868.742,"text":"那你認為台美之間匯率不是問題也不是貿易障礙的壁壘也沒有任何問題所以不需要跟美國談我跟委員報告就是說剛好就是這個關稅的談判我們從來也沒有跟美國談到匯率的問題我跟委員報告要強調的一點就是我的時間很有限我就直接說你認不認為在貿易談判的時候匯率台灣跟美國"},{"start":11883.05,"end":11907.33,"text":"要不要談 或者是我們要不要參與 或者是你央行要不要派員嘛我跟委員報告啦 我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部的溝通非常良好你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好 非常良好但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好我們談齁 我跟委員報告齁這個他每年齁 都是會兩次 固定兩次我知道啦 現在"},{"start":11908.231,"end":11923.413,"text":"總裁你們很厲害但是我說現在台美貿易談判對我個人來說我認為不可能不談也必然會提到只是有沒有公開如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一可以但是要讓國人安心對對"},{"start":11925.135,"end":11930.321,"text":"就算是要犧牲掉匯率也要讓國人清楚知道所以我們希望維持台幣的穩定至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣的避險"},{"start":11941.672,"end":11964.507,"text":"讓台幣動態穩定這是我們的職責穩定的台幣才是國人安心的保障第二個部分現在台幣升值有很多人受損出口商但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商尤其是我們最高興的應該是幾家國營事業吧我們台電中油買的東西都是用"},{"start":11965.546,"end":11978.42,"text":"新台幣換美金去買這樣的話他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點對啦也沒有錯所以他會不會是你在匯率調整時候你們出手的好幫手變成你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":11981.028,"end":12007.077,"text":"因為他如果繼續換美金的話他也許可以幫你併出一些台幣的匯率因為他一年買兩千億的天然氣啊對啦就是說如果說需求跟總裁我的意思是說當匯率在調整的時候我們有人受害有人受賄受賄的產業如果是國營事業他應該要成為他將來他也可能有一天貶值的時候他要花更多的錢去買美金一樣的他應該要做避險"},{"start":12008.258,"end":12027.518,"text":"這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃在這個升值跟貶值的過程中我們的國營事業既然在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠這些東西應該是總裁應該考慮找他們當你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":12030.1,"end":12044.044,"text":"讓他去幫你多買點美金你就不用花那麼多錢那個委員是這個建議是非常好啦是他們現在油價要跌啦台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦好接下去我們重點是我希望"},{"start":12044.924,"end":12066.649,"text":"如果長期的穩定台幣不管它是多少錢都應該很清楚在過程裡面讓所有的廠商有時間去適應甚至有時間政府的補貼可以到位否則像這樣一天兩天就突然急升的情況下我覺得央行還是必須要不管人家要不要罵你出手該有匯率你還是要有一定的作為"},{"start":12067.489,"end":12090.245,"text":"否則會讓大家擔心說就看著他生然後全世界都知道在生但是我們自己沒有任何疑點就看看他在生事實上我們也有適當的感覺你有動啦但是沒人看到大家就覺得是不是你沒動好我還是希望不要變成是被質疑或被讓大家自己去面對這件事情很重要接下來我們有請國發會的"},{"start":12099.409,"end":12113.693,"text":"主權基金是民眾黨的政見而且在上個會期我們提出法案上一屆吳欣怡委員也提出法案所以現在突然間本來"},{"start":12115.188,"end":12133.459,"text":"行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了然後央行繼續把外匯存體委員會投資比例提高就好了而且國發基金跟台商公司也有了怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金我想問一下這是百年大計還是現在只是應付立法院或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計"},{"start":12136.482,"end":12146.031,"text":"我想那個院長其實他在院長是隨口說說嗎不是他是說衡量現在多大的財力今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要"},{"start":12148.07,"end":12174.918,"text":"應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在研議所以三四個月突然間大變化沒有是因為因為現在的國家的財力產業發展還有國際有需要了突然間變得有需要也不是就是卓院長因為其實也是因應另外一個立法委員他在質詢的時候那卓院長其實有說我實習了一年了也沒有聽到你們正確的回答好 直接在那個等一下總裁我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金運用"},{"start":12176.846,"end":12197.432,"text":"所謂的你的外匯存底我知道你一直抵死不從但是外匯存底裡面我們的版本是大概抓10%也就是500多億請問總裁從你的理解裡面你認為主權基金它應該有的規模大概是多少這個我沒有辦法回答你們預計的規模是多少國發會呢"},{"start":12205.123,"end":12221.218,"text":"目前 如果前十大的話 妳的構想是多少如果前十大的話大概都會有大概有幾千億不過他們每個組員已經開始的時候我們有五百億的話大概排名第三十名啦但是以你們之前告訴我說台山公司的部分它只有四百億台幣啦"},{"start":12221.958,"end":12247.006,"text":"連10億都不到 因為台山基金不是家族權基金的所以我的意思是說你們之前跟我說台山已經有啦其實如果我們要做資金的來源的確要立專法所以我希望我們民眾黨的版本我們希望跟你們討論我們放在中央銀行法裡面修因為我們認為專法就叫做患不濟疾而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口"},{"start":12247.546,"end":12261.892,"text":"中央銀行不想要自己管,但是借他的錢沒意見但是借他的錢拿出來用的話,他要有償嘛,總裁要有償嘛,不能給你無償借用嘛你要有償,那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話,國發會還有央行,你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎?"},{"start":12269.537,"end":12294.683,"text":"對啦 所以也就是說我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了那個就是說他因為主權財富基金財富分伍的規模應該是跟中央銀行的資產入債比還有分開規模多少規模多少基金不用的方式基金還款的方式你們有答案了嗎國發會央行總裁已經講了啦他不會無償借你錢啦你是要發債嗎"},{"start":12295.723,"end":12322.033,"text":"委員其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法所以你們只是隨口說說不是我們要凝聚社會的共識那我們社會的共識我們這個版本已經提出來三四年了很多的內容都已經公開很久了可以參考我們的版本可以討論但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了就以後不要再拿出來鬼扯了好嗎是因為其實也"},{"start":12323.213,"end":12342.844,"text":"情勢變了所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃我們會集各界的意見我們來通盤考量所以我還是講這是百年大計不要做成緩兵之計也就是說主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的"},{"start":12344.325,"end":12364.713,"text":"來源 尤其是像其他國家已經有成功的案例我們怎麼樣讓他不要像國發基金一樣投資一些亂七八糟血本無歸的你就算了 還投資到一些犯罪基金來有一些狀況 所以要更完整的管理 尤其是由央行來做把關 我們是比較放心的 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的質詢 下一位請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":12390.15,"end":12392.332,"text":"我一向認為央行有兩個特權第一"},{"start":12411.54,"end":12435.974,"text":"說謊第二插手會試為什麼很簡單維持匯率的穩定對於我們是以出口為導向的國家而言那太重要了我們出口的金額佔我們台灣的出口佔整個GDP的60.82我們很清楚"},{"start":12437.622,"end":12464.928,"text":"數十年來我們台灣就是出口導向的國家因為我們台灣沒有天然資源嘛我們沒有油沒有煤沒有稀土金屬我們靠的就是我們台灣人的智慧努力勤勞所以我們這樣子加工製造出口那這是正確的事情啊所以央行來保護"},{"start":12467.977,"end":12489.928,"text":"這個匯市的穩定是正確的所以我認為在這一個部分那美國當然他是提美國就是說希望這些貿易夥伴不要藉著匯率政策來從事不公平貿易但是他祭出三個標準而這三個標準要通通達到"},{"start":12491.61,"end":12508.778,"text":"才叫做他們所謂的他叫做我們是操縱匯率國所以他才要用高關稅來懲罰但是這三個這是我今天要請教你的第一項我們沒話講他說貿易順差在200億美元這個我們沒話講他說第二點說巨額的經常性"},{"start":12518.582,"end":12544.722,"text":"經常漲的順差他說順差金額高過GDP的3%這個部分我們現在也超過了這個我是沒話講但是第三點我們這個淨值的部分我們不是都整天都在買匯每天都在買匯我們是為了匯率的穩定我們往往也賣匯不是嗎所以在這一個部分我認為淨額的部分這個"},{"start":12549.022,"end":12574.218,"text":"我覺得我們努力而且有操作的空間之下所以我認為我們不必不必為美國之命侍從因為他訂了三項的標準那我們在這當中當然我們要為我們全民為我們國家的生計著想所以我認為第三點我不曉得第三點"},{"start":12577.168,"end":12601.74,"text":"這個我們重複進外匯這個部分我們有超過嗎就我知道這樣是沒有嘛不是嗎委員分析的非常正確就是說因為我們第一項第二項我們長期以來我們就都是超過了那第三項的這個部分呢你剛剛也講到就是說事實上中央銀行呢前一陣子都是在賣匯"},{"start":12603.101,"end":12607.085,"text":"現在因為你也強調是進額 他也是強調進額 沒有錯所以也就是說中央銀行也不是說遵守因為我們也有我們的mandate 我們也有我們的職責所以剛剛委員做這樣的分析確實是沒有錯的 是沒有錯的"},{"start":12623.314,"end":12639.611,"text":"所以我是希望說中央銀行現在的首要任務就是要頂住頂住各方的壓力頂住各方的譴責罵聲我覺得就是簡單講中央銀行繼續做"},{"start":12643.975,"end":12648.537,"text":"過去幾十年來你們該做的那個委員分析的是沒有錯我們會接受你的建議也就是我剛剛說的那兩項那兩項你該做"},{"start":12660.001,"end":12670.39,"text":"就是要去存第二點對於說這個主權基金的事情我的看法導致認為我認為啦我們有這麼龐大5838億的外匯存底那麼其實"},{"start":12676.776,"end":12689.293,"text":"如果要設主權基金我們當然用外匯存體這是理所當然只是我非常同意說外匯存體不能無償撥用而且也應該先立專法"},{"start":12693.379,"end":12698.701,"text":"所以這一個部分我不曉得你的看法怎麼樣你的看法還是認為說這個是不是財政部國外的例子說財政部先去發債券那由財政部再來撥款那你的看法呢"},{"start":12709.344,"end":12723.074,"text":"是 我覺得委員你所分析的跟我們的報告應該是幾乎是差不多這個同樣的意見啦事實上你的分析是沒有錯的啦是沒有錯的用外匯存底來成立這是正確的這是正確的事情你看像我們鄰近的國家 韓國 馬來西亞 香港"},{"start":12733.201,"end":12743.451,"text":"他們都是 除了中國以外他們馬來西亞 香港 韓國不但用外匯存頂而且他們這個組織機構他們這幾年來他們的操作都很成功"},{"start":12748.816,"end":12764.587,"text":"更何況我們外匯存底因為為了安全跟穩定而言我們那個資息其實不高啦我們平均大概2.6%嘛那你看這幾個國家你看人家連香港喔連香港"},{"start":12765.54,"end":12784.113,"text":"他獲利都大概5.8%左右5.8%左右你看在我這一份的說明這是引用經濟日報香港香港他們這20年期間啊竟然都可以維持5.8%的報酬率等於是我們這個"},{"start":12786.424,"end":12807.145,"text":"外匯存底平均支息的兩倍以上所以這個部分我希望說我們央行就堅持住這一點就是堅持不要無常包容就好但是要由外匯存底來這個成立這個國家發展基金那至於組織機關"},{"start":12809.403,"end":12830.769,"text":"提了這四個機關我不是認為說那兩個機關就不好不是啦另外那兩個機關齁其實有他們努力的地方但是我認為由央行或者財政部來做組織機關這個比較精準啦比較精準因為畢竟國發會"},{"start":12833.069,"end":12853.263,"text":"跟這個經濟部他們有時候思考必須比較活躍也會比較跳躍式啦但是在這個主權基金這個部分的維護管理控制的部分我還是認為要央行跟財政部"},{"start":12853.883,"end":12880.875,"text":"但是我看到你們兩央行跟財政部的報告裡面你們兩個都推來推去都好像互相都不太願意所以這個部分總裁你看法呢事實上委員的這個過想事實上跟我們裡面好像是沒有講得很清楚我們意思就是說事實上你成立了主權基金的時候你上面會有一個board"},{"start":12882.014,"end":12897.595,"text":"有一個Board有一個就是說是就像董事會或理事會那在這裡面呢中央銀行會介入中央銀行會參與會參與那其他部會其他的部會也可以參與"},{"start":12899.732,"end":12902.854,"text":"所以你就說那個財政部事實上財政部也要參與啊莊營郎也不容辭所以莊營郎只是參與我們也可以參與那這樣的意思誰來主導所以這個問題就在這裡也就是說就我們的立場來看的話呢就是說主權基金這是政府的"},{"start":12920.828,"end":12925.916,"text":"那政府的中央銀行是可以參與,但是我們應該是由政府自己來參與他是由他來主掌"},{"start":12934.918,"end":12959.157,"text":"中央銀行就是政府的一個重大部門中央銀行不能置外於政府所以政府來主導是它政府的哪一個單位中央銀行主責還是財政部那這個就由行政院來決定了行政院決定所以行政院怎麼決定總裁你這邊跟財政部這邊就怎麼接受"},{"start":12961.089,"end":12988.82,"text":"對啊應該是啊應該是這樣我認為在這個部分喔既然外匯存底是由央行來主導主控那我希望央行在這個部分能夠更主動一點來更主動一點當然財政部也有很多這一部分的專業的人才但是所以啊我推崇財政部跟央行但是互相就不要"},{"start":12989.82,"end":13002.546,"text":"這麼客氣啦 不要互相推來推去啦 好嗎那外匯的部分 我希望你堅持到底好不好好 委員的建議非常好 謝謝你好 謝謝委員質詢 下一位是林思明委員質詢請"},{"start":13020.681,"end":13027.224,"text":"謝謝主席總裁先喝口水啦你面前出現沒關係 慢慢來我請楊總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":13042.678,"end":13050.862,"text":"總裁好 辛苦了啦因為這個議題太重要了 還是要救救總裁總裁我們新台幣對美元的匯率從4月24號的32.529一路走到5月5號昨天的收盤價昨天是30.295元已經升值超過兩塊"},{"start":13068.329,"end":13089.815,"text":"總裁也在5月5號下午召開記者會做出七點說明表示說最近新台幣的匯率的急劇波動主要的原因是因為外資匯入資金投資台股以及廠商因新台幣升值的預期心理而增加美元的供給"},{"start":13091.835,"end":13110,"text":"總裁你知不知道我們中華民國的央行跟其他國家的央行最獨特的差異是什麼可能你不知道我告訴你答案那就是中華民國的央行也是雙總裁制"},{"start":13111.578,"end":13127.489,"text":"那怎麼說呢?因為我看到你在5月5號記者會後,我們的總統,另外一位總裁,也就是賴清德總統,他不落你後,他接著發布了五點談話,總裁你了解我們賴總統五點談話的內容嗎?"},{"start":13130.711,"end":13155.569,"text":"你了解他五點談話的內容嗎後來我也稍微有看了一下稍微了解了我也稍微看了一下我想主要總統在五點談話中說新台幣最近的急劇升值其中一個原因就是因為有政治人物竟然鎖定匯率議題來炒作導致市場被誤導"},{"start":13156.61,"end":13179.817,"text":"以及非理性的預期心理總統這樣說總裁我看您發布的七點談話中並沒有談到這一點什麼政治人物介入來談論匯率炒作的議題所以總統的話不在你的七點的說明之中"},{"start":13180.937,"end":13208.434,"text":"這是我們央行分析的疏漏還是根本沒有這個原因存在總統後面講的我跟委員說明一下剛剛你講到的就是說有兩位總裁我也覺得很驚訝那個就是說有兩個總裁那不 所以我就說有一點你這個好像有一個暗示"},{"start":13209.966,"end":13235.962,"text":"就我的解讀啊你的暗示就是說周恩來的總裁他背後有一個指揮他的另外一個總裁要是讓新來幣貶就貶讓他新來幣升就升我在這一個場合呢我跟委員鄭重的聲明絕對沒有這回事絕對沒有這回事"},{"start":13239.403,"end":13256.571,"text":"那我請教你就總統在一個談話那他講說是有政治人物就匯率的議題鎖定匯率議題來炒作那我請教你因為你的七點談話裡面沒有嘛那你看到哪一位政治人物在炒作匯率的議題"},{"start":13257.671,"end":13274.618,"text":"有嗎我跟委員報告就是說因為在炒作的不是說炒作我就說是市場所以我們用說市場評論人因為每一個都可以當作市場評論人不是政治人物嗎這要講清楚啊沒有政治人物嘛你回答我"},{"start":13281.061,"end":13299.155,"text":"應該我是覺得就是說只要就說是評論了這個議題的話呢那都是包括在我們的這個市場評論人員是啊對那根本是誰是誰是誰我們沒有看到吧沒有任何政治人物去炒這個規律的議題"},{"start":13301.856,"end":13327.841,"text":"所以我其實我會這樣暗示我是要告訴那個總裁總統似乎不應該去干預這樣的央行的獨立性他去講說這個匯率炒作是因為有政治人物炒作你總統的層級你去干預央行的整個對匯率的這個整個判斷要如何來這個穩定我們的匯率總統他要出來說明他要出來講話嗎"},{"start":13329.921,"end":13351.302,"text":"他要蓋密你嗎?他要暗示你嗎?這個就是說委員的一個解讀啦不過我要尊重央行的草蘭地位剛剛我也已經就是說鄭重的一個聲明沒有兩位總裁啦這個一直到這裡 沒有就好謝謝 謝謝總裁我想我也看到"},{"start":13352.283,"end":13372.604,"text":"當新台幣兌美元在5月5號早上升破30元的時候登日最高是29.59下午我們央行才終於出來對外喊話那本席可不可以認定新台幣兌美元匯價的洋金融防線就是30元"},{"start":13374.979,"end":13391.11,"text":"我剛剛也有一個委員在提到這個彭淮南彭淮南彭淮南彭淮南的防線我也就說我從來沒有聽我們前總裁呢他提到他有他的"},{"start":13391.71,"end":13417.069,"text":"他的防線你的因為我現在觀察你的那然後呢就是說你的你的我現在我在這邊回答的時候呢我也就否定了就是說確實都沒有說我更具體的問你啦就是到今年年底到年底喔我們央行啊對這個新台幣的美元的匯價匯率價的紅燈底線是否就是1比30"},{"start":13422.038,"end":13432.403,"text":"我一直在強調就是說中央銀行不能報名牌事實上這個名牌也不是真的是名牌因為這個是由供需來決定"},{"start":13441.067,"end":13464.973,"text":"供需來決定那中央銀行適時的做一些調節讓匯率能夠動態穩定我們的職責就是這樣子所以你要講到就是說是要升到哪裡或是貶到哪裡不懂不曉得今天大家會有這個疑慮因為我們看到這一次的匯率突然的"},{"start":13466.773,"end":13492.078,"text":"會升值那麼快大家一個疑慮喔是不是央行啊你是不是一開始就一路的開綠燈只是你沒有想到說竟然衝破30的這樣一個紅燈的底線我還是一直在強調的就是說就是因為他的預期心理太強烈了那中央銀行呢就是說我們有事實調整但是呢這個事實調整呢底線呢"},{"start":13496.341,"end":13510.42,"text":"就是說這個調整就是說是因為就疫情心理太過強烈了但是我說是或我們看這個結果但是就是說是當然就是說是市場的一個shock"},{"start":13511.081,"end":13515.903,"text":"兩塊錢但是下來了以後我們總覺得我們中央銀行的一個我們因為就是說這個能量已經釋放出去了就是說預期心理已經釋放了所以我們的操作就比較它的供需是接近於平衡我們的操作就比較比較比較容易其實你一直沒有回答我的"},{"start":13532.33,"end":13535.052,"text":"所以我就說這個不是在報名牌啊所以我剛剛在回答另外一個委員的時候我就說最好就是說"},{"start":13556.269,"end":13567.212,"text":"因為委員是重要的人物 你的意願都足以影響這個會事好啦 總裁好你不演講就好啦 因為市場都在看市場還是因為你不講 市場還是繼續在議題好啦 這問題講到這裡就好了 就讓大家去猜吧"},{"start":13578.755,"end":13594.524,"text":"另外我們看到新台幣走深這個議題總裁你表示說美國沒有提出要求沒有沒有絕對沒有我剛剛在第一個就是說我在澄清然後一個聲明我就一直在講就說絕對沒有你聽我問你的問題"},{"start":13597.626,"end":13619.775,"text":"賴總統他也表示說台美關稅談判沒有觸及匯率的議題但主任長他昨天在總諮詢的時候他卻說台美關稅談判可能列匯率為談判的範圍說可能喔因為因為你會對我現在問你的立場所以我要我也藉這個機會來說明你是拒絕還是會派人去匯這個談判我們"},{"start":13626.498,"end":13644.622,"text":"長久以來因為美國的匯率報告我們是跟他討論的對象所以我們基本上我們每年都會最少都是會有兩次的討論討論的內容是什麼討論的內容就是說全球的總體經濟環境是怎麼樣"},{"start":13650.703,"end":13663.976,"text":"美國的經濟情況是怎麼樣台灣的經濟情況是怎麼樣那匯率的情況是怎麼樣大概就是這樣子我們是每年匯率的議題每年都會討論會 會 會我們都會正式因關稅談判所以我跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":13672.424,"end":13677.293,"text":"剛好就這個時候剛好就這個時候就關稅的談判沒有沒有我就說意思就是說事實上這個是Regular"},{"start":13685.546,"end":13711.027,"text":"是經常性的啦 對啦 是正常性的啦我們每年都是兩次 最少是兩次那我們隨時都會可以跟他們溝通的這個有利於我們國人 有利於中小企業的各種規定好 謝謝 謝謝我還在強調就是說 中央銀行跟美國財政部呢我們的溝通都是非常的順暢好 謝謝好 謝謝林市民委員的質詢下一位請圖全紀委員質詢"},{"start":13723.117,"end":13724.96,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請一下我們楊總裁總裁請"},{"start":13735.701,"end":13764.922,"text":"土耳其早總裁那今天應該很多人都跟你討論有關匯率的問題那當然我們也很多要提出可是我這邊還有自己選區比較重要的來跟總裁這邊來請託那我們桃園市大園盧竹地區桃園航空城機場園區特定區土地改良區段徵收案那這個案子總裁應該知道吧我也知道"},{"start":13765.662,"end":13792.815,"text":"那這當然是配合國家重大建設辦理的都市開發計畫那這個也是涉及我們數萬人民家園財產這個案子從2010年到現在已經十幾年了那當初我們政府是承諾先建後簽的方式鼓勵大家放棄家園拆除房屋把土地交給國家做建設那當然我們國家也承諾要蓋新房子給他們成構"},{"start":13794.035,"end":13815.867,"text":"或者發土地讓他們自建可是總裁那現在重劃區的居民這些徵收戶面臨一個問題那就是我們桃園市蓋的新房現在完工準備讓售還有重建的街廓土地也分配好準備要給他們蓋新房子可是現在他們要跟銀行"},{"start":13817.528,"end":13840.362,"text":"貸款申請買屋或蓋房的這些貸款的時候發現現在貸不到錢那2月份的時候我們那時候主責航空城計畫的那時候我們政務委員是陳金德陳金德政務委員那時候在召開25次專案小組會議的時候有協調他有表示說要協調我們"},{"start":13841.483,"end":13868.491,"text":"央行跟金管會針對貸款陳書的限制與優先核貸的可行性那不知道總裁這一部分有來幫我們這些徵收物來協助是啦我想就是說第一個就是說他受到了限制因為現在就是說專業銀行有對選擇性信用管制有一些的限制那除了這個以外呢"},{"start":13868.951,"end":13894.67,"text":"事實上呢有一些的部分呢自然人他如果說沒有第一戶的話沒有自己的房子的那些事實上呢那些都沒有受到限制這是第一點那第二點呢如果說他後面的這些他有他以前都有房子啦那現在是因為就是說這個要搬進去發生一些的就是說他受到了限制那我們呢中央銀行這個我記得啊"},{"start":13895.55,"end":13898.872,"text":"桃園市政府都有發函給我們中央銀行在陳委員那邊討論的時候我們也有參與所以第一個我們有回覆桃園市政府"},{"start":13913.758,"end":13930.626,"text":"這個議題那其中呢我們強調的是什麼強調就是說對如果說有問題的話因為每一個房貸戶他的個案都不一樣啊不是說所有的你這些的裡面的這些的他的那個個案都是一致的"},{"start":13931.306,"end":13951.713,"text":"如果說個案都是一致而且是需要幫忙的那當然是沒有問題問題是在於說他每一戶每一戶的情況都不太一樣所以呢我們就有一個有一個全變我們有一個全理的方法個案如果你有問題的話桃園市政府呢整個收集起來來給我們讓我們來協助"},{"start":13955.954,"end":13982.342,"text":"就是這樣子總裁其實你針對這部分我也知道你們的回函但是你們其實你們的回函針對我們航空城這些居民其實它是本身既有的排除規定不然其實它甚至這個安置住宅的時候還是受到現代令的管制所以我剛剛才會一直在我剛剛才一直在強調就是說因為每戶每戶的情況都不太一樣"},{"start":13983.442,"end":14008.579,"text":"那所以呢也就是說你針對每一戶就是說受到他合理的我們需要幫忙的在裡面的假設說好200戶那裡面呢有100戶或是50戶他是確實是受到就是說他是應該要我們來協助的那你就把他抱過來好那總裁我也說明一下那航空城裡面這個居民他的情況是比較特殊他現在是"},{"start":14009.439,"end":14028.32,"text":"當初你國家重大建設就是他就是以一屋換一屋的方式把自己現有的房子換成政府興建的安置住宅而且是採取先買再拆的方式是真的有實質換屋的需求他並不是買新房所以"},{"start":14028.88,"end":14052.535,"text":"你們的切結規定是要求賣舊屋 賣土地那跟我們航空城居民拆舊屋 交土地的狀態不一樣那請問這種買新拆舊的狀態是不是也可以接受在現代定的規範可以不受現代定的規範我就說嘛 每一個個案都不大一樣嘛"},{"start":14053.555,"end":14082.393,"text":"因為這個是航空城裡面它的樣態因為你們裡面的規範是一屋換一夫但是因為你們規範是賣舊屋賣土地但是我要講的是航空城它是特別是拆舊屋交土地所以這一部分你們這個規範一定要讓他們知道它是配合我們航空城是配合國家重大建設跟你們一般投資客他為了去"},{"start":14083.214,"end":14090.71,"text":"去投資買房賺錢的形態不一樣所以這個你們應該要規範在排除現代定之外"},{"start":14092.262,"end":14113.82,"text":"我們也有協處措施這個總裁部分你幫我們研議一下一定要針對他這個是國家重大建設他並不是去買房要去賺這個錢他是完全配合政府所以針對你們這個規範你要針對航空城這些徵收物來放寬請總裁來趕快幫我們研議一下謝謝圖委員的質詢下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢請"},{"start":14127.749,"end":14132.853,"text":"好謝謝主席我請央行 楊總裁好總裁好 王委員早剛才齁 我們陳玉珍委員"},{"start":14150.154,"end":14156.515,"text":"代理那個召委主席之後讓他坐回來他說這個楊金龍總裁實在很不善於說謊他說只要你一涉及到說謊就結結巴巴包含在記者會還有包括呢剛才我們林思敏委員說有沒有楊金龍防線那總裁竟然說有沒有這個彭南華防線"},{"start":14175.959,"end":14201.313,"text":"所以總裁我覺得我們還是應該要為所當為 言所當言總裁今天討論到國家主權基金我看到央行的報告裡面在最後的部分這個就重點了意思說央行對於成立主權基金是持正向態度但是"},{"start":14202.213,"end":14222.828,"text":"不能由外匯存底直接無償撥用所以這個是我們中央銀行的態度這個部分我是肯定的也希望我們總裁能夠守住央行防線主權基金當然不能由外匯存底直接的來撥用"},{"start":14225.478,"end":14230.9,"text":"最近我們面對美國的貿易戰經濟部長郭志輝說未來十年我們要投資美國兩千億美元我很擔心這個會不會跟主權基金會有任何的相關聯"},{"start":14244.685,"end":14260.342,"text":"然後呢這兩千億美元我們很多人都在問啊兩千億美元錢從哪裡來我們擔心有人動腦筋動到了我們的外匯存底的身上所以總裁在這邊可不可以給我們一個承諾第一"},{"start":14260.922,"end":14279.012,"text":"主權基金不要由外匯存底直接無償撥用這個是報告第二未來如果有兩千億美元要去投資美國解決有關於美國的貿易戰也不能動用外匯存底"},{"start":14280.112,"end":14308.724,"text":"總裁可不可以做出這樣的承諾那當然啊就是說那個主權基金我們就是說無償不能無償多用嘛那另外你就說是就是說要投資美國兩千億的這個嘛那當然就不可能啊不能夠直接拿紋外匯存你絕對是多餘的不然的話這個大家都隨便喊價嘛兩千億變三千億反正我們有五千八百億可以用另外總裁請問一下我們持有美國"},{"start":14309.904,"end":14322.191,"text":"美債到底是多少我們上因為就是說上一次在講就是說是是佔的比重有多少我要這個數字金額多少我們的有沒有3000億如果說是公債的話如果說我們純粹就公債的話沒有3000億"},{"start":14338.151,"end":14358.767,"text":"純粹就公債的話 美債的話那就要包 因為我們有一些的我們有一些的那個我們有一些的那個債券呢它不是公債的而是另外的 譬如說我舉一個例子我們也有持有BIS它的一個發行的債券那是以美元做計價的"},{"start":14359.548,"end":14365.072,"text":"那這個就不是這個就不是公債啦就不是美國的公債啊所以我就說如果嚴格來定義的話呢我們持有美國公債的話呢是應該就是低於三千億以下那大概多少呢低於三千億是多少這個我私下再說這是根據美國財政部的這個他的這個資料來源是到今年的年初我們是持有美國政府公債"},{"start":14389.848,"end":14416.207,"text":"前第11名金額2900億美元這個數字對的但是我跟委員報告我要澄清一點這個數據是包括中央銀行跟民間部門的所以也不是說這個2900多億美元我就中央銀行的部分來請教總裁因為其實現在很多人都在關心也就是擔心一件事情"},{"start":14417.068,"end":14441.484,"text":"就是所謂的海湖莊嚴協議這裡面提及到就是要讓外國投資美國債券的可以轉換成百年長期債券甚至是零利率所以我想請問中央銀行我現在不管民間的中央銀行所持有的美國政府公債"},{"start":14443.065,"end":14455.591,"text":"當到期的時候如果他把轉換成非常長期比如說百年長期債券尤其現在提出所謂的零利率債券央行會不會斷然拒絕"},{"start":14457.439,"end":14464.602,"text":"我跟委員報告啦就是說這個議題呢我們基本上我們在我們在我們新聞稿裡面呢我們講了好幾次了沒有這個議題啦這個是就市場的傳聞這個是這個是他這個史蒂文當有這個議題的時候當美國提出來的時候我們會不會斷然拒絕把我們持有的美國債券轉換成"},{"start":14483.39,"end":14486.432,"text":"這樣百年長計債券我跟委員就是說我答覆了因為委員的這是假設性的議題假設性的議題我覺得我也不便在這邊回答這是第一點第二點我們又緊張了你跟卓榮泰院長一樣啊不不不"},{"start":14507.945,"end":14525.397,"text":"我總覺得就是說我們會密切注意因為事實上這個所以我以前我才會很那個因為我就不佔據時間因為今天關心匯率啦還關心那個美債的我們委員非常多"},{"start":14526.158,"end":14539.814,"text":"不過這樣的話我就來考慮來研究一下那也歡迎大家提供給我意見我們看怎麼樣用從法規的面向去阻止未來有可能的罰身"},{"start":14541.335,"end":14542.156,"text":"謝謝委員對這個議題的關心所以總裁也很贊成"},{"start":14576.825,"end":14579.806,"text":"主席我請總裁總裁請市委員早 姚總裁早"},{"start":14595.049,"end":14607.616,"text":"我講給你講,你有沒有困難?沒有啊,沒困難啊,沒困難你不是用台語,人就不會這樣嗎?沒有啦,我幫你報告啦事實上啊,我國語沒講到連頓,我的台語也沒講到連頓啊因為齁,我們的腔調齁,台南的腔調跟我們的腔調又不大一樣你德文?我屏東"},{"start":14619.523,"end":14644.381,"text":"畢竟結婚一樣沒有啦,他還說我沒什麼感情我今天沒什麼感情兩件事要來跟你討論好,那你,那你,好你先說好,那你我們古早人說的,水不寒,無意地相撇水不燃,無意地滾煮所以看你在印度的過程中,我感覺你擔當很多啦所以我是很欠佩你謝謝,當然有些我看你過的啦"},{"start":14646.082,"end":14656.411,"text":"五個的報告你可以做一些說明這沒問題台灣的利益跟美國的利益衝突的時候請教你你會站在什麼人的利益當然啊 都是我們的利益啊我們的利益是什麼人的利益全民的利益啊我今天就基金跟匯率你可以報告說基金"},{"start":14671.977,"end":14679.424,"text":"不應該有外匯,不是說不應該,是說外匯絕對不能無所謂給你們提供的嘛是是是,對啦對啦,沒有不對啦那這樣就是說,這次的談判,其實是我們的老總統因為他看美國人一直找不到門路,最後美國的工資"},{"start":14693.72,"end":14703.35,"text":"如果要求無息不要說一百年 五十年 或者是三十年 二十年只要是沒理息要求我們高級的工程把它轉換過來"},{"start":14705.824,"end":14716.79,"text":"這個發生的時候你如何面對我跟委員報告基本上你這是假設議題不是假設喔不不不 我要再跟你報告美國的財政部你的立場很清楚就是外匯不能無雙使用所以我認為你很好啊所以如果是這樣"},{"start":14732.578,"end":14734.501,"text":"總統要求無線購買美國的工資的時候 你是要選擇下台還是選擇尊重我跟委員報告"},{"start":14744.844,"end":14758.337,"text":"我跟他說總統不會有這種要求你有比我更了解你讓他更了解,我看那是另外一個議題我跟你說,你問單純出家中我跟你說,總統就是有可能這樣做嘛"},{"start":14766.704,"end":14789.174,"text":"空氣不來風啦 這個基金啦 其實不在於台灣啦 台灣人很多 台灣人比較淫褐但是 監督的機制如果沒有出來 這八檔的 最高級的 我跟你講 像太陽能光電那樣游到整個燈去 綠色綠色的出來 這是專民 不能忍受的好 來 給你就是這個法律啦 很困難 我很多 這裡的中小企業 我過去也做過什麼"},{"start":14796.637,"end":14817.481,"text":"這半的高趴 坦白說在我揮草 揮過頭面不用講忍耐 大家可以渡過渡過之後當然你有你的內部 你有你的盤算但是關稅大概就是25%啦企業對美國這些賣家來說收到的 應該差不多是一人一半啦所以吸收一半12.5% 恆恆你這個9.5%就可以大分 率頂加算了"},{"start":14825.442,"end":14843.994,"text":"企業的危難就是說我可以不談我拚四五十年了我三台車沒問題啊但是我請我的員工一個員工一個家庭我不能讓失業現在企業的煩惱是這個社會責任跟社會得益加在兩天失業的問題OK來 現在我請教你很嚴肅的很多企業叫我說一定要怎樣因為大家在問的都這樣沒重要是這個"},{"start":14853.84,"end":14876.959,"text":"因為他所有的頂端 整個年底就說你今天如果可以做一個保證這樣他們到明年第一季所有的頂端 他可以去安排他的風險要怎麼來拼所以我正式在這裡跟你請教一個問題到今年十二月底 十二月三十一以前新代表二十九口本 你想得到嗎"},{"start":14881.221,"end":14891.586,"text":"非常簡單的問題對啦 我說匯率它是有升有貶啦我知道啦 因為你這個答案 我沒有給你為難喔是是是我沒有給你為難 因為你今天這個答案出來 他們可以告到明年第一季他知道他要怎麼撇不用風險 這樣台灣可以往來10個月"},{"start":14904.712,"end":14920.616,"text":"不過不如我跟委員報告啦事實上到現在30塊已經有很多人你不要要求很多人總裁啊 你跟總裁請教一下你對疫情29個月收的到嗎這個我要跟委員報告這個我沒有辦法回答你"},{"start":14930.939,"end":14950.377,"text":"我們這裡所有的黨主席,可以你告訴我嗎?我已經問完了十二月三十一疫情,有總裁說二十九個月,代表二十九個月,他不一定收得到,他如果收不到了,你現在也沒辦法保證我沒有說我收得到,收不到了,我只是說你這個問題,我沒辦法跟你回答"},{"start":14957.128,"end":14970.219,"text":"我沒有說我收不收不收,這是兩位事,這個是兩位事,所以……總裁,你告訴我,這兩個你講的一個問題,就是有機的心理,所以不一定是馬祖豪,要自己手上手來我的炮喔?我會,我會再給他回顧"},{"start":14977.965,"end":14991.359,"text":"你一直在這裏著墨這個匯率你是立法委員的大員所以你一直在這裏說話會影響市場的預期所以我告訴你不要在這個時候一直在著墨"},{"start":14998.175,"end":15003.341,"text":"今天我告訴你200元就會有議席今天是對30元到29元你還要請求這個50元來賺你說20元給你 你說19元給我 要不要收工"},{"start":15016.434,"end":15030.379,"text":"不敢不敢不敢 總裁不敢 二十九個月跟二百個月一樣所以正式的答案就是二十九個月他收不掉沒有 我沒有這樣說沒有沒有 那是你的意錯沒有 我沒有這個意思"},{"start":15037.262,"end":15044.75,"text":"你沒這個意思 你說什麼 台南外交有兩種意思所以喔 我要慎重跟委員來討論在國會議場 討論會議比較serious"},{"start":15056.643,"end":15074.957,"text":"這要謹慎 要謹慎 要節制你不知道我出高雄有一點兩趴三趴 丟錢變丟錢耶我都知道 這事情我都知道委員你...我當然關心我當然關心但是你現在在說的時候 我不是說你關心一定是你害他不是啊 你要這樣說今天你說的那些不值錢就賣了喔我覺得...我覺得...今天你說的那些不值錢就賣了 修來的民間的喔 他就賣了喔"},{"start":15087.094,"end":15105.908,"text":"所以 我跟你說的就是29個月你一定收不掉OK 謝謝我沒有這個意思好 謝謝 謝委員的諮詢下一位請 陳玉珍委員諮詢請蔡玉宇 蔡玉宇 蔡宇文不在陳玉珍委員請諮詢謝謝主席我們讓那個央行總裁休息一下"},{"start":15117.472,"end":15145.812,"text":"那個請主席長主席長我看到這個在總質詢的時候這個我們院長有說啦115年的總算是依照新的裁劃法編列沒錯吧你們說裁劃法要提釋憲對不對已經提了嗎"},{"start":15148.313,"end":15166.939,"text":"已經提出來了就對了會照新的來編政院的發言人李慧芝有說新版財化法裡面地方的政府財源會大幅增加所以會研議優先減劣地方補助款對不對你戴口罩大聲一點我聽不太見"},{"start":15171.851,"end":15178.726,"text":"優先檢列地方補助款優先檢列地方補助款是一般性補助款還是計畫性補助款"},{"start":15180.07,"end":15202.93,"text":"兩個都有兩個都會減劣就對了是不是不是我們新版的財富法第30條第三項有規定啊你知道啊我們有這個規定啊中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款向金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊意思說一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊但是一般性補助款有很多種啊什麼意思"},{"start":15205.801,"end":15224.118,"text":"一般性補助款的項目非常的多對 我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目但裁判法 新的我們通過這個裁判法有明文規定是 那我們也會違規不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數所以你不要遵守我們會遵守所以一般性補助款你不能減你可以減計劃型補助"},{"start":15225.609,"end":15234.964,"text":"我們可以減項目用其他的來彌補啊減什麼項目不同的因為他有很多不同的項目項目沒關係但是金額啊當然這說是金額啊"},{"start":15238.379,"end":15239.48,"text":"請問中央對各地方統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":15258.641,"end":15272.926,"text":"什麼時候出來地方才好做他們115年地方的這個編列一些計畫什麼來做什麼時候會出來因為現在已經已經在邊蓋算了4月到5月在邊蓋算了這是財政部的業務請財政部來說明財政部市長什麼時候會出來市長"},{"start":15278.735,"end":15306.357,"text":"就對於這個各縣市的統籌分配款稅的那個額度什麼時候會出來因為第一五年你們在編了嘛地方也要開始那個嘛 準備對 因為現在有兩個問題啦因為現在就是說今年剛好就是因為出口旺盛所以呢 營業稅退稅特別多那另外呢 所留稅我們結算申報延後一個月所以目前啦 我們的裁員是不足的所以我們現在有找這個地方政府來開會"},{"start":15307.478,"end":15322.191,"text":"所以我們目前這個有關這個統籌分稅款這部分現在是目前是有一點打折啦但是等到這個結算申報結束以後有裁員之後我們會全部補足好沒關係那是什麼時候幾月份可以編出來"},{"start":15324.216,"end":15337.311,"text":"幾月 幾月 最慢是八月份啦八月喔 所以八月才可以算最慢 最慢 最慢半應該說這樣 八月以前你會給這個答案我相信應該會早一點八月以前會給這個地方 各個地方因為各個地方也要編他們的計畫各方面要給地方一點時間"},{"start":15343.876,"end":15365.585,"text":"那請問主計總署 你沒有發函給各個縣市還有直轄政府說114年中央對地方政府一般性補助款5月到12月的分配數改為未分配數嘛 對不對就是這個因為你們現在在財務法在做一些有一些總預算啦 總預算也在做救濟嘛 對不對是不是總預算也在做救濟嘛 也在申請這個市縣是不是"},{"start":15367.26,"end":15389.283,"text":"以我們基本來講 本來一般性補助款5到12月本來分配數是10億多現在改成5億多其他改為未分配數那你說要等救濟結果而定是等釋憲 救濟結果是釋憲嗎對等釋憲 如果今年底都沒辦法釋憲呢沒有結果咧這筆錢是要不要分 要不要發出來"},{"start":15390.103,"end":15412.272,"text":"因為這筆我們是對 原來我們 比如以金門來講 十一變五億嘛 十一變五億那你要等救濟結果 如果救濟到原體都沒有視線呢 都沒有結果呢要不要這個五億 就是這個原來的十一變五億這個分不分那到時候再看什麼叫再看看那個三減 要三減哪一項 因為現在三減 要三減636還沒有確認嘛"},{"start":15414.076,"end":15432.346,"text":"不是啊 你這樣子地方怎麼施政呢現在5月到12月要怎麼施政你都給一半 對不對那到底地方不就整個政務會停頓嗎整個都會影響啊所以你什麼時候 有一個時間吧如果到年底都沒有咧所以也是會給是不是 你也是會給"},{"start":15434.767,"end":15462.343,"text":"也不一定會給,也有可能變零就對了有可能變零因為如果說到時候要刪減的話,那就會刪減所以有可能,所以他的本來是50%也可能會變成零嘛那你們如果有這樣方向打算也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊不然地方政府到底他現在5月到12月要怎麼施政嘛是,我們會盡量,盡量這個要早一點嘛,好那接著,謝謝主委長,接著我們請這個總裁辛苦了,總裁"},{"start":15463.942,"end":15465.643,"text":"所以我一開始我的聲明就是說因為我口才不好所以呢會有結紮的現象"},{"start":15490.518,"end":15495.786,"text":"所以也不是說因為我結結巴巴才會言不可忠而且又說我就是因為我不善於說謊才會這樣結結巴巴好像就是說我就是說謊"},{"start":15505.6,"end":15516.544,"text":"沒有啦 沒有說你說謊啦你直接叭叭嘛 就是你不想說謊 但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛有提問也沒有辦法回答沒關係啦 不正義這個齁 來星哥 我要問你實質的問題齁這個 剛剛也很多人問過啦 也沒有所謂的澎懷蘭防線啦也沒有所謂楊金龍防線 也沒有什麼利守30塊大關啦齁這些防線都沒有啦齁那但是 你也知道現在很多這個"},{"start":15530.552,"end":15542.036,"text":"商人出貨商很辛苦對你很嚴重的挑戰那這個台幣升值是不是台美的談判議題這個我們也問了我們也問了那這個這個卓榮泰院長有說未來不敢動我問他的時候他說你看我們在中央是說沒有觸及這個議題卓院長是說"},{"start":15550.579,"end":15551.059,"text":"所以你可以承諾匯率不會是台美談判議題嗎"},{"start":15566.266,"end":15581.225,"text":"不是 我現在又要回過頭來要講就是說事實上我們跟美國財政部有兩次 我剛聽到我剛在講 請問你這一題哪兩次 每年兩次嘛請問分別是什麼 大概是什麼時候因為我們固定是兩次 但是"},{"start":15582.006,"end":15598.275,"text":"我們大部分就是說他的匯率報告出來之前會有一次所以他一年是兩個匯率報告那有固定大概幾月跟美國討論以前他都是在四月中以前一個是在十月中以前"},{"start":15599.155,"end":15614.962,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告就是說事實上我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部溝通良好我的意思是說什麼就是說我們在這個議題方面我們都互相的信任"},{"start":15616.383,"end":15640.354,"text":"第二點我們隨時有什麼問題要跟他請教的時候我們都隨時都可以去所以熱線不斷沒有問題有熱線就對了中美是跟他們的總裁意思所以我們說溝通良好就是這個意思但是我們的總統也好我們的院長也好都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率是沒有你也說沒有那南韓央行的總裁是說謊"},{"start":15649.278,"end":15670.746,"text":"你認識他嗎?我認識他你認識他?我認識他所以但他說美國有他沒有說什麼施壓啦他就說是不一定是會這樣但是有談到這一題所以我應該要相信你啦不過我跟委員報告啦就是說所以南韓這位央行總裁可能說的不是實話"},{"start":15671.892,"end":15675.855,"text":"我不曉得因為他有說台灣啊他說美國和日本、台灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛所以要嘛就是耐心的這種說法要嘛就是這個央行的這種說法因為他對我們台灣他不曉得啊"},{"start":15690.988,"end":15693.409,"text":"我也不曉得說他們藍藍有沒有跟他談那他有提到啊反正要嘛就戴總統說謊要嘛就央行我覺得誰說謊誰不說謊我也沒有辦法判斷沒關係我要強調的就是我要講的實話我講的是實話"},{"start":15715.522,"end":15726.67,"text":"你講的是實話 你講的一定是實話 只要不結結巴巴的時候總裁我想請教你一題 最後一題上一次辦了一次匯率報告 上次是11月5號繼續被列為匯率超重國的觀察名單請問這一次你預測會繼續列還是會升級這一次 因為有匯率報告 美國財政部那個"},{"start":15742.364,"end":15751.157,"text":"如果說據他這三個三項標準的話呢我們還是觀察名單啦所以你覺得應該還是會在觀察名單是啦是啦好 謝謝總裁"},{"start":15753.899,"end":15772.675,"text":"好 謝謝陳益智委員的質詢蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 委員不在林楚英 林楚英 林楚英 委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉 委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前 委員不在陳冠廷 陳冠廷 請"},{"start":15781.138,"end":15784.094,"text":"你好我們請中央銀行總裁用座頭去"},{"start":15794.827,"end":15822.48,"text":"常委早長總裁好首先我想針對最近新台幣大幅升值的情況來跟總裁來請教看他的影響層面比方說這個近期的這個匯率市場已經從3月底的33塊對1美元到現在是升值到29.6一度啦 一度到29.6所以他短期內的升值的幅度已經接近4%所以有一些媒體他用暴力升值來講到這個對我們出口產業的這個"},{"start":15825.842,"end":15845.892,"text":"那從數據上來看的話對半導體產業來講的話新台幣每升值大概1%台積電的營業利率就會下降大概0.4個百分點所以說如果以五月初的匯率來去計算的話第二季生產可能會造成的匯兌的損失大概是700到864億左右那傳統的製造產業當然更是首當其衝"},{"start":15849.594,"end":15868.959,"text":"所以有台灣的這個機械工業同業工會有警告如果說再繼續升值的話可能會引發這個產業的倒閉潮那不同的產業高科技業傳統產業等等它會有不同的影響我想請教一下這個總裁央行有沒有對不同的產業的具體影響進行全面的評估"},{"start":15870.686,"end":15890.853,"text":"事實上就誠如我剛剛說的事實上30塊也不是現在才第一次碰到不是第一次碰到不是以前就好幾次我跟委員報告事實上108年的下半年都是30塊左右那個時候108年12月31號我的資料是30.106"},{"start":15898.223,"end":15924.632,"text":"在111年12月30號的時候那個年底的匯率是30.708所以還有就是說好幾個事實上就是說30塊這個不是第一次30塊事實上前面以前就好幾次都碰到30塊了所以這個也就是說不必要就是說是"},{"start":15926.236,"end":15934.901,"text":"我的意思不是說不必要 是說這30塊不是第一次所以委員就是說 現在媒體也講到像這個台積電它就虧了 它就損失了780億到800億所以我們都是從"},{"start":15949.128,"end":15965.709,"text":"他現在這樣下來他如果說我們如果說是從剛剛那個以前呢他是從30塊點值到33塊的時候呢那個時候呢都沒有報紙都沒有在分析說他這個是賺了多少錢"},{"start":15966.79,"end":15991.492,"text":"沒有所以呢也就是說企業的一個經營啊他不是在短期的不是就是企業的經營不是在短期他除了他營利之外他同時也必須要避險所以說總裁講的沒有錯就是說企業他除了營利之外他必須要也想著說怎麼樣去避險因為匯率的這個市場他是他是會有波動的那本身就應該要做好一些準備是"},{"start":15991.772,"end":16018.377,"text":"但是工業部門那不同的這個次產業它會受到影響的程度也不同那比如說像是這個螺絲的擴建產業它的平均的這個毛利率是大概15%那如果考量到美國已經實施基礎關稅下那這一波的這個新台幣的急升它可能會造成它的利潤是轉為零甚至是負數那另外一方面科技產業雖然有受到影響就是我們剛才講的利潤"},{"start":16020.757,"end":16035.888,"text":"他的空間比較大而且他有比較強的避險能力為什麼因為就如同剛剛講的他們同時他們整個集團內部一定會有在針對匯損或者匯率的變化來去要做調控的那這樣子講起來的話我就必須要特別強調"},{"start":16036.969,"end":16053.419,"text":"中小企業在匯率避險上面就面臨到這個專業不足還有成本過高的這種困境所以我想請教一下這未來有沒有辦法考慮央行是不是有跟銀行業者合作來提供更友善成本更低的避險方案"},{"start":16055.361,"end":16070.352,"text":"至於就是說這個委員這個諮詢是很對的就是說銀行是不是也可以提供這個中小企業他避險的時候成本會能夠降低一點我想這個是很好的一個建議這個我們會來跟他們來討論討論好不好"},{"start":16074.274,"end":16094.233,"text":"謝謝總裁那拜託再給我30秒我再把農業的部分把它做一個結束那總裁再來就是農業的部分農業部分可能會有一些分化效應為什麼一方面我們特定種類的水果像是蘭花的生產者它會因為國際市場的競爭力因為它的這個匯率的關係它可能會下降而受創但是另一方面畜牧業"},{"start":16095.174,"end":16120.673,"text":"還有這個水產的養殖業它是進口的飼料所以像是玉米黃豆成本降低它可能會受益所以我是說央行應該要去評估這一段匯率的變動對所有農產品國內價格的出口競爭力的進影響好不好提供這樣的相關的這些資訊給我們這樣子未來我們做整體的產業我們就是說委員做這樣的一個建議我們可以start一下啦好 謝謝總裁我們可以start一下"},{"start":16121.474,"end":16145.705,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的資訊現在翁曉琳 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌委員不在那麼報告委員會 今日登記的發言委員 經已巡打完畢"},{"start":16147.499,"end":16159.354,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有一案請議事人員宣讀也請央行的長官看一下這針對你們的提案好不好看一下"},{"start":16161.037,"end":16178.606,"text":"臨時提案案由介於中央銀行對其從業人員提供員工福利優惠存款利率然身為央行所屬的中央印製廠員工卻未享有同等福利恐有差別待遇之嫌考量印製廠員工向來積極配合央行指示"},{"start":16179.286,"end":16204.841,"text":"在工作崗位上鞠躬尽瘁以及过往被视为铁饭碗的国营事业今日亦面临铁饭碗生锈人才流失的难题原要求中央银行应该本与行场一家照顾员工的经营理念提供印制厂员工相同的员工福利优惠存款利率以其留住人才吸引人才提案人罗明才、赖世宝、林德福宣读完毕"},{"start":16205.785,"end":16224.889,"text":"那個現在科技總管報告這個因為我們不夠不夠是不是總裁要不要說明一下好不好就真的這個案子跟我們說明一下看看可以的話就因為他只是提報告而已啦如果可以的話就也不要說因為不要處理但是你只要答應了就可以我們就是說我們也會來聽聽他的意見啦我們會來研議啊我們也會研議這個主題啦好不好就是硬製廠對"},{"start":16235.752,"end":16263.16,"text":"要比照什麼就是說我們會跟中央印製廠的工會來協議一下然後我們來研議看看是這個委員的提議我們來在一個月內來提出書面報告好不好就是你們找印製廠的員工代表談一下然後在一個月內把報告給我們一份就這樣子謝謝"},{"start":16266.616,"end":16288.008,"text":"那麼報告委員會本日會議做如下之決定第一報告及詢答全部完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":16288.968,"end":16315.795,"text":"第三委員林柱英翁曉琳所提的書面報告列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆第四本次會議議程已全部進行完畢假如有不在場委員不提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理三位"},{"start":16321.903,"end":16328.2,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}