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11:28:19","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展委員會副主任委員、內政部次長、外交部次長、國防部副部長、教育部次長、法務部次長、經濟部次長、交通部次長、勞動部次長、農業部次長、衛生福利部次長、運動部次長、環境部次長、文化部次長、數位發展部次長、僑務委員會副委員長、國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員、海洋委員會副主任委員、國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員、人事行政總處副人事長、國立故宮博物院副院長、原住民族委員會副主任委員、客家委員會副主任委員、中央選舉委員會副主任委員、核能安全委員會副主任委員、公平交易委員會副主任委員、國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員、大陸委員會副主任委員、公共工程委員會副主任委員就「115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查，近3,000億元之新興、新增計畫將無法推動，對國家整體發展之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.94596875,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.864093750000002,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.66221875,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.72534375,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.27784375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.80159375,"end":66.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.00784375,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.11096875000001,"end":84.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.69284375000001,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":102.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.72721875,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.25346875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.48096875,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.04159375,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.13659375,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.91971875000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.25284375,"end":174.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.54784375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.14221875,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.87971875000002,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.78346875000003,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.58034375000003,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.22096875000003,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.21221875,"end":219.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.50284375,"end":222.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.67971875,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.88221875000002,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.25971875000002,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.72284375,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.69721875000002,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.64596875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.07596875000002,"end":257.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.21846875,"end":262.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.80846875000003,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.32534375,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.09284375000004,"end":293.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.19159375000004,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.40596875,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.29159375,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.01284375,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.63221875,"end":310.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.78409375,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.72784375000003,"end":327.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.16534375000003,"end":329.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.49846875000003,"end":336.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.39596875,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.87909375000004,"end":352.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.38096875,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80221875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.67909375000005,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.10784375000003,"end":372.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.49159375000005,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.48721875,"end":376.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.27159375,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.16471875,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.97784375000003,"end":409.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.22846875000005,"end":420.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.77534375000005,"end":425.061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我可不可以邀請陳主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":13.615,"end":36.711,"text":"委員好主席長好 午安主席長你是優秀的公務人員你從基層幹起你的資歷也非常的豐富完整從在台北縣服務到省政府到台南市政府到中央部會那整個歷練過程你是會計出身也是在政治經濟科班的出身所以"},{"start":37.711,"end":61.373,"text":"我認為你個人對於預算法總預算如果沒有辦法如期審訊完成我們到底有哪些補救辦法跟措施在法規上或在過去的前例上我認為你應該是都有做過相關的功課你都應該知道有哪些辦法"},{"start":62.074,"end":83.732,"text":"我先說明過去也不是第一次嘲笑野大87年前我們預算如果沒有審訊的話有立法院議定補救的辦法有一個我們所謂的補救辦法你點頭你非常清楚87年之後我們用法律明定"},{"start":84.773,"end":101.081,"text":"有延續性的支出過去有去年有前年有大前年有我們可以運用如果預算沒有審訊完畢我們仍舊可以先行動之我想這個你也非常清楚你也點頭有延續性的預算這個到目前為止我所說的你都認同"},{"start":108.612,"end":132.288,"text":"好所以也沒有我先打斷到這裡也沒有去年在大罷免期間的廁所沒有衛生紙沒有預算沒有辦法省衛生紙中午開會沒有便當都沒有這些事情所以也有補助的辦法也有處理的方式好那在89年之後政黨輪替之後因為也同樣有"},{"start":134.489,"end":159.321,"text":"嘲笑野大的預算的問題所以我們要在預算法當中真定新興的資本門的支出即便是新的計劃在資本門支出的部分如果經過立法院的同意有一些挑出來即便是新的計劃跟民眾有關係有緊急需求甚至在國防部裡面的預算有一些部分新興計劃"},{"start":161.209,"end":174.567,"text":"有緊急需求仍舊可以挑出來只要立法院同意一樣可以先行動之有這個法碼第54條預算法第54條有這個法碼好我說到目前為止"},{"start":175.635,"end":200.244,"text":"其實我要強調的是就目前預算的僵局沒有辦法省的原因這是另外一個政治層面的因素但是就明年度的預算無論是延續性的預算或者是新的預算都有可以解套的方法跟方式當然我從新聞上有看到目前新增的預算舊的延續性的預算沒有問題我先請問在現場所有的官員"},{"start":204.744,"end":219.093,"text":"延續性的預算明年如果預算沒有省有吃愛難行的地方沒有辦法處理的你們舉手一下延續性的預算人事的 過去有的"},{"start":220.543,"end":248.648,"text":"有沒有問題沒有問題主席講我先講完我的時間我先講完也就是舊的延續性的預算大家都可以先行動之新的預算只要送上來經過立法院挑出來大家有共識仍舊可以處理有法可以處理而且這是預算法54條所以目前看來我們是有解套的方法"},{"start":249.707,"end":278.336,"text":"但是真正的政治原因就是主席長你也非常清楚現在立院跟行政的僵局在於你是公務人員出身你也這麼資歷這麼完整該編的預算無論是軍人的三萬塊的加薪無論是公教人員的停侃年金其實照理說立法院三讀通過其實就是要依法守法來去做處理"},{"start":279.144,"end":303.529,"text":"你前一陣子回答其他委員也是同樣的狀況公務人員依法行政不可以不編即便你認為軍人不可以一致的只有加三萬可能也要依不同的階級來做處理那你就提出不同的版本但是現在的僵局是你不提出你新的版本你要不編列你就叫違法所以主席長"},{"start":305.123,"end":326.843,"text":"行政院有沒有整理出哪些是新增計畫我有看到你們有整理出來我有看到今天的預算書你們也有討論過但是行政院長卓榮泰接受媒體攻擊在野黨的方式我是沒有辦法接受到目前為止我相信許多辦公室的同仁委員"},{"start":328.24,"end":355.14,"text":"都不清楚你新政計畫到底面對於現在今年度今年已經12月23號了新政24號新政預算到底有哪些你希望面對現在行政立法的僵局那1000億哪些你希望趕快出來行政院挑出來我們立法院先審各個辦公室至少我知道的國民黨團所有的委員不知道"},{"start":356.857,"end":376.173,"text":"你們就在那邊等著行政立法僵局繼續僵住卓榮泰所講的一千億的立法院行政院新增預算哪些是新的有緊急性的必要先處理的我們立委不知道只有從新聞裡面看到"},{"start":377.375,"end":391.606,"text":"所以說你們有真的想處理嗎我覺得沒有面對現在行政立法院的僵局你們沒有打算要處理你這不編列軍人的加薪公教人員所得替代率的停砍你又不處理"},{"start":394.408,"end":419.827,"text":"現在的僵局真的有緊急需要的你又不送出來立法院審也不拿進來溝通談判這就是現在我覺得你們擺爛不管持續的按照過去大罷免的方式抹黑在野黨這就是你們處理的原則所以我現在其實都有法可以依據無論是舊的延續性的預算或新的延續性54條都有解決的方案另外"},{"start":420.848,"end":438.017,"text":"主席長我要請問你除了預算法的規定之外我十月份我有問你我有跟您質詢過就是說針對於直轄縣市的補助辦法補助款的補助辦法沒有修正過沒有修正過的預告的問題當時主席長你回答我說"},{"start":444.181,"end":455.377,"text":"縣市政府的補助辦法要不要預告你說因為這是涉及細節性技術性這是屬於行政規則所以不需要預告你還記得你當時回答我的對不對"},{"start":458.399,"end":466.664,"text":"補助辦法對於各縣市的補助辦法你的認知是行政規則你回答我這是屬於細節性技術性的事項我現在不需要跟你吵架但是你現在看你們自己的同仁對於各縣市的補助辦法他就是一個命令他當然就要預告"},{"start":481.189,"end":495.787,"text":"他當然就要預告對於各縣市的補助辦法涉及到各縣市經費的執行 預算的執行這當然關係到人民的權益怎麼會是只有細節性 技術性的事情"},{"start":498.181,"end":523.408,"text":"當然有 當然有你們自己直接寫這是命令喔好 幫我看下一張 朱澤民主席長當時在民國106年的時候他也是一個命令 他也有預告他也有預告怎麼會你的認知跟朱澤民差這麼多涉及到地方各縣市的補助款的部分可以不要預告"},{"start":525.216,"end":541.776,"text":"我剛剛一開始我就說你歷練非常完整你也是當時公務人員高考過的非常優秀行政資歷非常完整怎麼會是行政規則呢他當然就是一個命令當然要預告當然要公告啊"},{"start":542.995,"end":563.26,"text":"因為它本身是屬於對於內部的一個行為沒有對外發生它相關的一個法律效果所以這個部分的一個法規命令它可以不用預告 是這樣妳的同仁就直接打妳臉它就是一個命令 它當然要預告啊妳再看前一張 妳的同仁就直接寫要它是屬於命令啊"},{"start":565.746,"end":593.191,"text":"114年8月29號行政院令修正直轄市縣市的補助辦它就是一個命令它就是要預告啊對 它是屬於法規命令但是它不是說對於不特定的人民的一個所生的一個所設的事項所以這個部分不是屬於非公告的一個事項是這樣子主席長你的同仁跟朱澤民年代很多應該都是重疊都是一樣的第一"},{"start":594.557,"end":613.178,"text":"怎麼會對法規的認知有這麼大的差異我剛都說你是從基層人員出來依法行政照理說你應該非常清楚什麼是要預告什麼是行政規則什麼是有涉及到人民的權益這當然有涉及到人民權益怎麼會朱哲銘當時的組計長都認為說這有涉及到人民權益所以要預告你認為不用預告"},{"start":615.14,"end":639.446,"text":"怎麼會是兩個標準啊你們底下公務人員主席處裡面底下都是一樣的同仁怎麼會有不同認知的標準我覺得主席長我認為你是優秀的公務人員不要因為換了一個政府之後就對應對著幹因為公務人員應該要依法守法這是我要提醒你的地方以上好謝謝李委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}