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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.480343750000003,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.454718750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.150343750000005,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.617843750000006,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.46784375,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.77721875,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.79409375,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.97096875000001,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.10596875,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.30409375,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.89784375,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.89596875000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.31721875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.29971875000001,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.03721875000001,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.04034375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.73221875000002,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.30159375,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.14096875,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.57409375,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.65971875,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.15659375,"end":192.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.43846875,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.42971875,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.36346875,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.11846875,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.02971875,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.28284375,"end":202.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.57346875000002,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.25971875000002,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.57159375,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.30971875,"end":214.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.09284375000001,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.72909375,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.74596875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.65221875,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.97659375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.02721875,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.24221875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.44846875000002,"end":244.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.95471875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.03909375,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.88284375,"end":248.295968750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農業部長有請來 有請陳部長部長午安"},{"start":16.731,"end":41.388,"text":"這個剛剛有委員在談這個事你們在政策對話的過程中本席在那邊聽說談到了一個很重要的問題就是說大家今天除了討論修法的內容到底是一萬二一萬五牌幅的門檻要怎麼做處理之外真正我覺得比較值得大家思考一下的問題是修法過了之後到底拿不拿得到對不對按照陳部長剛剛的說法修法過了拿不到是因為到目前為止115年的中央政府總預算還沒有進入附會審查的這個階段"},{"start":42.548,"end":66.136,"text":"那部長知道為什麼總預算到現在沒辦法復違嗎我想總預算在這個會期應該是在審預算的一個情況那審預算裡面就算我個人認為就算委員有一些不同的意見但是還是要讓總預算進行實質的審查跟討論那討論的過程中我想各部會一定會提出他的說明以農業部來講我們的預算已經準備在那邊了"},{"start":66.496,"end":84.049,"text":"好 你講啦 跟你農業部沒有什麼關係啦總預算之所以到現在沒有辦法付為審查是因為軍人加薪的這筆錢該編的時候沒有編嘛警察消防 你先聽我講完嘛警察跟消防人員的退休的這個停侃或者是說重新調整退休金這部分你該編入公務預算沒有編嘛"},{"start":85.55,"end":100.676,"text":"這個就是橫平性的問題因為一般立法院在申請預算的時候不能增加預算因為預算如果說以今天農民...是啊 那我要問你啊居然待遇條例是法律案還是預算案我告訴你這個部分我就用農民經貸一樣農民經貸也有經費的問題但是這個經貸如果經過討論"},{"start":104.717,"end":131.086,"text":"行政單位如果認可的話那就是行政單位會編預算嘛所以行政單位還要認可請問現在今天版本有院版嗎沒有對不對那今天民進黨的召委排審的條文今天只是質詢跟備詢並沒有進到實質的討論那實質討論的時候院版的一定會進來我告訴你啊按照正常的邏輯這個立法院審查大概法律案就是法律案預算案就是預算案對不對今天的但是法律案如果裡面有"},{"start":131.706,"end":158.004,"text":"簽約到預算的絕對數目的時候那就必須要經得我們行政院的同意所以你的意思是說我們在審理任何的法案之後我們還要一定要經得你的同意也就是說未來我們在這個場合不管討論出來要經過討論嘛你先聽我講完嘛不管這個委員會討論出了什麼樣的結果只要你不同意所以你就可以後面可以不執行意思就這樣子囉不是我的意思是說我們一定要進到委員會做充分的討論甚至在院會經過充分的討論但是沒有經過充分的討論的之下"},{"start":161.887,"end":176.738,"text":"像農民年金如果今天有人喊到兩萬塊然後不經過討論也不讓我們表達意見的時候部長 我現在很擔心啦我剛剛講啊 正常邏輯法律案就是法律案條例就是條例 預算就是預算這不一樣喔我們當然都知道法律案裡面有一些是含有預算我們當然都知道 聽我講完嘛"},{"start":177.859,"end":196.199,"text":"我們當然都知道預算案我們不能主動提增加這就是我剛剛回答你第一個問回答剛剛大家討論第一個問題為什麼總預算沒辦法付為因為沒有辦法在付為的時候把軍人該加的薪水加回來沒辦法把警消人員該有的退休金討回來沒辦法因為我們尊重預算案的性質嘛不能因為這樣子而擋了總預算進到審查但是問題就是你法律不執行嘛對不對"},{"start":196.92,"end":213.666,"text":"好 那現在法律案裡面如果包了預算的金額的部分你們自己的行政院都自己可以創設規則也就是說如果法律案包括預算案就一定要經過行政院的同意那請問我們還要立法院幹什麼我說一定要經過行政院的一起來討論那討論會找到一個共識嘛我請問你啊 我是內政委員會啦我們當初審原住民進房補償條例的時候有沒有討論有討論嘛 沒有共識而已對不對"},{"start":222.529,"end":229.498,"text":"那沒有共識是不是要按照立法院的規矩按照議事的程序 經過投票表決來做最後的結果 對不對"},{"start":231.159,"end":252.627,"text":"你怎麼能夠期待一個全世界哪有一個國會所有的案子都是無一一通過對不對哪有這樣子的所以是要討論嘛對嘛經過討論之後沒有結果所以才表決啊現在總預算連進到討論的機會都沒有我現在講的是前面的法律案包含進法補償條例包含軍人待遇條例包含警察人員人事條例是不是都經過討論沒有共識才表決對我農業部來講我現在關心的就是總預算有沒有覆違"},{"start":257.213,"end":277.909,"text":"所以今天討論這個老農年福利今天也是一樣經過討論之後民進黨現在有民進黨版本你院裡面的版本到現在沒有出來國民黨有國民黨的版本大家的版本不一樣很有可能到了最後也沒有共識要經過要經過表決的程序做出最後的決定現在你剛剛的意思是說只要這個決定出來的東西你不滿意你就可以不執行是嗎我沒這樣說喔你沒有這樣講我沒這樣講啊"},{"start":280.171,"end":301.745,"text":"所以我說大家要討論然後最好能夠朝著一個共識然後在共識的過程中你剛剛跟我講說這個行政院要同意才行啊你剛剛沒有這樣講嗎我說協商以後要同意我們認同協商以後要同意那不就是要同意嗎那萬一沒有結果呢萬一沒有結果呢過去的很多法律案的部分沒有共識的話就會先放在那邊找到有共識的嘛"},{"start":302.105,"end":320.875,"text":"法律案沒有...法律案如果沒有共識要做決定就要表決嘛那不然幹嘛設計表決的機制呢法律案的部分我們農業部非常多的法律案扯到非常多的利害關係人看起來陳部長是蠻想當立法委員的這我尊重啦好不好但是我現在很擔心啦我是一點都沒有興趣當立法委員"},{"start":321.395,"end":335.684,"text":"現在我們現在擔心的地方是今天我們在討論老年農民的福利津貼如果到最後沒有讓民進黨吃自助餐的話那是不是到了最後你會不會執行 我先問如果最後表決結果通過的是一萬五千塊的版本你會不會執行"},{"start":336.755,"end":361.189,"text":"如果啦 我不做這樣的預期你不做這樣的預期而且我相信我們的版本提出來的話我能夠說服所有的委員你要說服所有的委員只會說委員是不講理的直接經過討論的程序在立法院刪除通過最後結果如果是一萬五千塊你要不要執行嗎我不考慮假設性的問題你現在又不考慮假設性的問題我不回答這種假設性的問題因為我不認為委員最好你這個沒有說實話啦我告訴你我告訴你現在的委員是喊"},{"start":362.671,"end":381.231,"text":"我寧願聽到你講真話你講真話講說你沒有辦法做主這我就接受 為什麼當初在審計碼補償條例的時候原民會也講說我們很支持這樣的東西增加但到最後也不是他說的算我沒有這樣講喔 我沒有這樣講我說過一萬五我是不支持的啊我舉個例子給你聽嘛 對不對那到最後是行政院可以片面的決定要或不要嘛"},{"start":381.872,"end":398.946,"text":"那我們到底今天在審查什麼東西呢 對不對今天是在 備詢是在做討論做意見的溝通我們不同的立場有不同的設計的方法我們現在在做溝通我們就有直指問題的核心今天在場的 請問哪一位官員有把握就是說今天到最後經過完整的討論程序最後三讀通過的法令一定會被執行"},{"start":399.927,"end":413.553,"text":"你可以掛保證被執行嗎我告訴你這個部分就是你剛剛都以農業部長的身份去講說我不能回答假設性的問題你為什麼不能回答一個經過完整立法程序三讀通過的法案為什麼不能執行"},{"start":414.505,"end":441.424,"text":"那要看那個法律所設計的這些這些內容是不是在行政行政單位有執行困難的地方如果執行有有障礙的地方的話當然不能執行啊所以你剛才講的假設性問題像15000我已經表態15000是是做不到的因為從財政支出來講是做不到的更更何況是總預算是沒有通過的我現在就很擔心這種吃自助餐的狀況嚴重影響了大家立法院審查法案的公信力跟狀況"},{"start":442.765,"end":470.583,"text":"對不對 按照過去的時候當初老年金從第一開始立法我們決定要發的時候如果當初的行政單位就是這種態度的話那我恐怕今天大家也不會有老中心貼的不是嗎我跟委員講我也不是今年才站在這個立法院的在過去的立法過程中我們都是盡量的大家找到一個包括行政單位跟立法單位都找到一個共同的一個目標跟共識然後再去落實這個法律案根據憲法權力分立的原則立法是立法院的憲政權利這你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":471.603,"end":491.218,"text":"這當然是嘛對不對如果立法院我們當然要徵詢行政機關的意見大家要經過一個完整的討論程序這個大家都不反對這個事情對不對但是問題是如果我們都經歷了這樣完整程序完備之後然後你都還沒有辦法掛保證說這樣子的一個對於老農是好的的法案你可以順利執行的話那有沒有違反權力分立的概念"},{"start":492.685,"end":518.197,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果今天在農民津貼委員過去老農津貼在OK的但是你說提高到多少錢老農津貼過去在增加的過程之中農業部也好或是過去的農委會曾經都提過不同的意見但只要在立法院經過了完整的三讀程序他就會執行你可以比照這樣子的精神嗎你沒看到在委員會討論的時候是大家都有那個共識的"},{"start":520.769,"end":536.356,"text":"什麼討論的什麼公共立法院我講的是立法院的程序決定嘛你該走完該走行政程序相對的立法院的法律案裡面你可以要求提高但是你不能說要提高到多少錢因為講到經費就牽扯到我們行政權必須要去編這相關的預算這個才是重點"},{"start":538.717,"end":553.616,"text":"反正所以今天花了這麼長的時間你回答的時候你也沒有辦法保證你一定會執行就對了我們簡單一點我告訴你我們現在目前的一個共識是朝這個方向在走那至於說法案提出來以後我們會再跟我委員會溝通嘛朝這個共識去走哪一個共識"},{"start":554.477,"end":581.976,"text":"就是額度提高我現在不同的政黨版本就有不同的共識啊額度會提高 提高多少提高是共識但是最後大家會有一共識沒有說誰說了算我們是以農業部的立場我們會盡量跟委員說明提高一定的金額是大家都可以接受的這是我們的目標嘛我是很擔心這個案子到最後走完了所有的程序三讀通過之後又來一個不附屬不執行我告訴你我更擔心的是總預算不執行的話我們審這個案子是一點意義都沒有"},{"start":582.276,"end":598.894,"text":"如果這些僵局沒有辦法解決的話總預算怎麼會有好結果呢好啦 這樣講下去也沒有變啦總預算是牽扯到所有的農民的基礎設施的建設喔你辛苦了啦但是如果你們的心態沒有做任何的調整的話朝野的僵局也絕對不會解開啦我的心態非常正確喔我就希望說預算趕快審有問題我們趕快執行"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}