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09:41:00","會議時間":"2025-12-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長及內政部次長就「元旦假期及春節連假期間交通運輸場站、高鐵臺鐵捷運車廂、觀光景區等人潮密集處之安全維護」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員林俊憲等23人擬具「發展大眾運輸條例第二條條文修正草案」案及(二)委員柯志恩等23人擬具「發展大眾運輸條例第四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「商港法第二條條文修正草案」案及(二)委員林岱樺等18人擬具「商港法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。\n【法案部分，開會事由二僅進行詢答，開會事由三進行逐條審查】\n【12月29日及31日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.71409375,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.353468750000001,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.39409375,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.346593750000004,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.704718750000005,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.62409375,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":54.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.61346875000001,"end":81.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.46971875,"end":84.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.40596875,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.88221875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.75034375,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.34471875000001,"end":103.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.43659375,"end":106.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":116.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.48971875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.43846875000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.07471875,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.81034375000002,"end":142.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.52846875,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.86596875,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.98971875,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.13721875000002,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.92596875,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.52284375000002,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.42471875,"end":242.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.42346875,"end":269.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.22971875,"end":267.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.87909375000004,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":365.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.66909375,"end":344.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.90534375000004,"end":344.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.13409375000003,"end":372.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.88909375000003,"end":367.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.05784375,"end":368.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.81659375000004,"end":375.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.10721875,"end":401.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.31846875,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.87409375000004,"end":411.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.13971875000004,"end":411.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.40971875,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.62034375,"end":414.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.95784375000005,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.54721875,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.66471875,"end":429.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.97221875,"end":430.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.01846875,"end":432.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.09409375,"end":441.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.07159375000003,"end":443.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.48471875,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.62784375,"end":451.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.14596875,"end":455.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.71971875,"end":455.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.25096875,"end":456.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.78659375,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.73909375000005,"end":464.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.38034375,"end":465.2578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對於保障國內外旅客搭乘大眾運輸的基本安全是我們重要的基本責任那對於場站的安全不只是我們要針對單點式來做進行一個安全的一個處理更是要風險的一個流程以及相關的這種整體系統性的來處理相關的場站安全的這樣一個問題"},{"start":55.175,"end":78.262,"text":"當然我們針對無差別攻擊是要建立更完整的一個安全體系不管是在發生前的事件的預防跟演練或者是發生中要減少危害程度以及追蹤相關的犯罪行為或者是在發生之後危害的一個平復跟安全漏洞的檢討剛才部長也有針對"},{"start":79.742,"end":87.466,"text":"相關的應對未來的處理有做基本的說明但是我們演練的頻率我來請教一下部長是"},{"start":88.834,"end":109.212,"text":"台北車站為例我們實際的10元實境的演練是在2019年的8月2019年的10月有進行相關的這樣的一個實境的演練10元的演練那2019年之後就沒有了只有到2021年到2024年兩次"},{"start":112.475,"end":138.487,"text":"是采用桌上推演的冰推的方式这样的一个演练方式这样的频率能够提升我们相关的场站的安全吗来说明一下报告委员确实我们过去整个联合防灾中心的这个演练的频率跟次数确实是不够虽然各个铁道的单位各自有办各自的这个演练但是以这一次的这个灾害发生的状况看起来"},{"start":139.167,"end":161.919,"text":"各鐵之間的聯繫才是更重要的事情所以我們在明年的1月我們打算要準備再辦一次聯合的防災的演練那也希望能夠建置起來未來的每一年能夠辦理這樣子聯合防災的演練更重要的是聯合通報的機制必須要把它建立好現在雖然有這個機制但是以這一次的事件看起來聯合的通報的狀況不夠完善好"},{"start":164.941,"end":182,"text":"部長你既然提到通報我們針對緊急通報目前的方式不論是台鐵高鐵或是機場轉運站及休息站等等他主要是依靠緊急通報是主要依靠車廂內或特定地點的緊急按鈕"},{"start":183.061,"end":208.293,"text":"那另外就是民眾的報警或者是場戰內CCTV維護這樣一個場戰的安全那其實在目前國內外已經要使用AI的影像辨識技術來加速偵測危險以及相關的異常行為的這種做法那我看到我們港務公司目前已經用CCTV來偵測"},{"start":210.795,"end":226.853,"text":"闖入禁制區的人員或者是未經允許闖入港口的這些船隻那歐美他們更是進一步的引入異常行為分析或是危險品的這種偵測的系統以快速的"},{"start":227.654,"end":249.087,"text":"以加快這種異常行為或攜帶危險品的一個預警時間那我看行政院也有提出相關的一個宣誓那他們也有同樣的構想就是說在未來要導入相關的應用但是也要提醒這種導入相關的應用及作為"},{"start":250.228,"end":269.649,"text":"要避免侵犯個人隱私就是限制是以邊緣計算的這樣的一個方式只進行風險行為的一個分析避免真恐避免這種連恐的一個辨識部長說明一下我們交通部未來規劃方向是如何"},{"start":269.969,"end":285.717,"text":"報告委員您所說的這個重點其實我們在檢討的計畫當中也已經都納入我們在這個公路的系統其實我們在隧道的部分已經有這個AI辨識整個異常的狀況那另外在港口的部分委員您剛剛有提到我們對於傳播的部分異常的傳播或異常的這個"},{"start":287.838,"end":311.173,"text":"闖入的事件我們有做這個分析之外我現在也請港務公司在做整個碼頭上面如果有異常的移動等等之類要做AI的分析那針對場戰的部分我們現在也在研議未來要導入AI科技的這個影像的辨識並且要預警因為我們這個鏡頭非常多像您上面所提供的資料有1950個不可能用人力下去看去辨別它的異常"},{"start":312.094,"end":338.13,"text":"但是行為上的異常是可以用AI來辨識出來但是行為上的異常必須要先去這個識別化就是不要把人臉放進來但是以人潮的移動或者是人潮的這個異常的動作等等之類來作為辨別的系統那如果由AI辨別出來之後就可以馬上跳出來讓管理的人員看到這樣子的畫面馬上去判斷該做什麼樣的應酬這個部分已經納入我們的檢討計畫"},{"start":338.991,"end":364.325,"text":"不然我們提到運用科技其實我們要提到我們相關的基礎設施不足以及權責不清的這個問題我們必須要來正視那權責不清的部分就以台北車站為例台北車站它複合了多種的這樣的一個交通載具還有商場那它整個系統包括四個軌道系統還有地下街的系統還有微風"},{"start":366.226,"end":385.434,"text":"他是有九大系統包含台鐵高鐵台北捷運桃園機場捷運還有台北戰前中山成品地下街以及微風廣場這是九大系統那九大系統他們都有各自系統維護自己建置的CCTV的這樣的一個系統"},{"start":386.314,"end":408.708,"text":"但是還有部分系統 他們是採用類比式的這樣的一個攝影機還沒有全面的轉換成數位式的攝影機 這差在哪邊因為類比式的攝影機 它沒有辦法進行了影像的辨識那我們在推動科技運用的時候 這種基礎建設的落差"},{"start":409.929,"end":431.701,"text":"就會出現漏洞這個是必須我們要去正視的另外系統差異的問題不只是在軟硬體的部分也在業務協作的部分容易發生權責這樣的一個區分不清或是協作斷點的一個情況那嚴重的時候"},{"start":433.154,"end":440.473,"text":"各單位都會認為應該是對方這個單位要負責不是我們這個單位負責造成反應不解跟混亂的狀況"},{"start":442.17,"end":456.053,"text":"例如1月19的事件台北車站聯合防災中心他並沒有及時接到台北捷運的這樣的一個通報他是收到台北消防局的通報這個民眾會嚇死第一時間不是台北機場捷運發現是消防局通報"},{"start":464.471,"end":480.964,"text":"另外針對中央地方及民間業者各種不同的系統跟狀態他涉及到預算的部分也許他是沒有辦法直接整合但是在規格跟資訊互通方面應該能夠串接"},{"start":482.429,"end":502.351,"text":"互相的支援這個交通部有沒有相關的一個規劃跟委員報告我們明天下午由伍聖元次長會召集會議我們希望就整體的全國的各個聯合的廠站彼此系統該怎麼串接的部分也來做討論那我們希望有鐵道局這邊能夠協助那尤其像台北"},{"start":503.212,"end":526.171,"text":"車站這麼複雜因為他九大系統合併在同一個地方確實大家的軟體系統不一樣硬體系統也不一樣未來的整合一定會出問題那這個必須要花一些時間大家統合來討論那這個部分交通部會積極來辦理部長我要提醒你台北車站聯合防災中心是周遭所有的攝影機都匯整到這個地方那"},{"start":526.932,"end":540.785,"text":"我剛才講的這九大系統它是超過1950個CCTV的一個鏡頭有48個分割的畫面那常態配置只有二至三人在監看你認為這樣能夠強化預警減少反應的時間嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":545.569,"end":565.14,"text":"包委員一方面人力應該是不夠啦九大系統這麼大的一個範圍要來管理那這麼多的人流量兩到三個人絕對是不夠的那這個部分我們會跟九大系統大家來檢討因為這個是九大系統大家一起出錢建置在台鐵的下面這一方面要檢討那二方面就是委員剛剛所提到要檢討多久"},{"start":566.27,"end":582.176,"text":"我們應該是三個月之內能夠檢討出來這個要盡速的來做整合我們盡速來處理那另外就是剛剛所提到的AI的系統我們要趕快導入因為再多的人力都沒有辦法看這麼多的影像那必須要導入AI快速的把異常的影像能夠跳出來"},{"start":583.103,"end":605.373,"text":"另外最後一點時間我認為廠站的維安人員他目前最主要是包給民間的保全業者那未來交通部是否要研議說交通廠站自行採購相關的器械來給保全業者使用那或者是這些相關器械使用納入採購的範圍來說明一下"},{"start":607.899,"end":629.429,"text":"報告委員目前高鐵車站應該都有這樣子的設備那台鐵的部分還沒有到全面化那這個部分我們會來增加預算來設置這樣子的設備給所有的保全人員另外廠站的這些部分是由諸位警力進行安全維護我看到有些這些保全維安人員並沒有加入相關的演練"},{"start":631.93,"end":655.22,"text":"這個必須要改善而且不僅是要演練制服歹徒也要熟悉練習快速疏散民眾跟工作人員減少危害這種也要避免疏散時發生這種踐踏的意外這都是確保安全的一個重要的工作那未來維安人員保全人員也要進行相關的演練來最後讓你說明一下"},{"start":655.7,"end":684.038,"text":"好 報告委員這個部分我們都會來做積極的演練因為事前最重要的是演練事情發生的同時才能夠快速的應變並且趕快把人潮疏散或者是歹徒的追蹤等等之類能夠快速的調出資料給警政單位這個部分我們都在努力當中部長今天也有做初步的一個說明我們希望看到你保障民眾安全能夠有積極的效率跟相關的成果的一個展現讓民眾安心好 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}