{"error":false,"id":["166771"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166771,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166771","日期":"2026-01-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-05T09:17:38+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-05T09:32:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5832fd9c17b55031673011a53eea80ce167d23619189f10e6c71fb96bad2f8966d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:17:38 - 09:32:05","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【1月5日及8日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.498468750000001,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.94471875,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.06346875,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.53971875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":52.782218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.92159375,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.900343750000005,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.24596875,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.26284375,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.43284375,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.25971875,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.30784375,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.95221875,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.76534375,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.40284375000002,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.85784375,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.91659375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.51471875000001,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.45909375000002,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.96784375000001,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.64971875,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.09659375,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.84284375000001,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.64784375000002,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.68096875,"end":216.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.26284375,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.56096875,"end":228.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.22721875000002,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.64471875,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.22221875000002,"end":234.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.09471875000003,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.17471875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.30534375000002,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.54034375,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.98721875,"end":262.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.43284375,"end":264.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.91784375000003,"end":266.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.26346875,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.71471875000003,"end":286.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.24346875000003,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":291.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.92971875,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.92096875000004,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.06846875,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.37346875000003,"end":320.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.66409375,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.69784375,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.44846875,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.35971875,"end":339.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.21846875,"end":345.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.58034375,"end":346.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.62659375000004,"end":347.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.52096875,"end":354.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.47346875,"end":359.33346875}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麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":12.26,"end":37.105,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委本次政府採購法歷來最大幅度的修法當然我們都希望說修法就是要看到問題來解決問題並且往前邁進 加強行政效率那現在我們政府採購法的工程會的版本也在做公告期間到目前已經公告了將近快一個半月的時間了那有沒有聽到什麼樣的一個回饋"},{"start":38.598,"end":60.071,"text":"外界很多人可能對於是說把三家首次公開招標達三家的投標加數的限制給拿掉這個部分是有疑慮的這部分有公開我們看到一些工協會有表達這個需要再考慮的意見是包括說工種理事長潘俊隆理事長就說這樣搞恐怕會有弊病"},{"start":60.851,"end":73.579,"text":"媒體也有報導而且講是說如果說一家廠商跟機關講好就可以開標決標長此下來可能會有後遺症如果說上市公司有上下其手的空間對採購的角度來講不太好"},{"start":74.925,"end":97.781,"text":"來 主委說明一下這個只要是時機已經不一樣我剛才提過採購法是原用39年的相關條例來辦理那過去政府辦理政府採購公告在比方說縣政府門口然後公開在報紙然後這個廠商要去領標也要到現場投標也到現場容易衍生一些微標那現在已經是"},{"start":99.842,"end":116.228,"text":"這個整個資訊這麼公開這麼多元所以所有的採購都公告在政府的電子採購網上面大家都能夠搜尋得到然後領標各種方式的領標都可以有郵寄然後有電子領標已經高達99.6%了"},{"start":118.749,"end":144.18,"text":"那這一次修法又新增這個相關電子投標的這樣的規定所謂資訊公開跟以前是完全不一樣不會有重複以前那種會讓廠商來脅迫其他廠商來微標的情形所以我們認為三家三除一家那麼這個因為資訊已經公開了所以衍生微標這些弊端是幾乎不可能"},{"start":144.54,"end":164.854,"text":"你只是像以前一樣就說他可能用技術性杯葛讓那廠商沒有辦法到場他就在門口等啊看誰來領標同行都知道所以就是你把標單拿過來這個暴力脅迫違標是過去經常發生的事情好 但是主委本席也看到這個工總理事長他也提到他說他也不是完全的反對"},{"start":165.695,"end":185.017,"text":"對 他有提到是說工程會可以審慎考慮如果最有利標取消三家投票限制這可以接受因為最有利標這個是機關部分他已經有一些想法他可能希望是說有一些比較這個業績比較良好的這個廠商來去做這個相關投標但如果說是最低價標"},{"start":186.198,"end":213.933,"text":"也要取消這三家那會不會衍生一個情況就是說有廠商他就投標投標完之後他可能不符合市場上的一個行情那到時候他又用其他的方式來這點說明一下因為我們要的是要避免弊案的發生我們最有利標大部分都是標的比較大的案所以他有資格的廠商相對比較少所以呢而且這個整個案的形成包括"},{"start":214.673,"end":239.143,"text":"核定包括這個預算都資訊都已經很久大家都知道所以我們說取消三家這個影響並不大那至於這個低價標一般標的是比較比較小價金額比較少的符合資格的廠商很多我們雖然說刪除三家的限制一家就可以開標但是那麼多廠商針對一個標的所以一家"},{"start":240.583,"end":267.94,"text":"單獨去決標的那個機率就是比例也不會太高啦所以我們目的是希望說這個大家都能夠第一時間去參與然後比較有效率主委那我想請教過去到現在因為我們也看到有報導講不具名的官員說其實現行法規無法第一次開標就決標小型標案頂多晚半個月大型標案頂多晚一個月那也因此"},{"start":268.78,"end":286.382,"text":"我們手邊一定有這些相關資料因為本席剛剛有提到是說最低價標其實就會擔心說如果你把三家的這個廠商的資格給取消了會不會就有可能就變成是特定廠商就持續的得標到最後變成是其他廠商覺得說我乾脆不用去投標反正我去也是陪榜"},{"start":287.658,"end":309.854,"text":"我們過去有沒有 你有相關的統計資料有多少廠商 多少標案因為不是三家而造成第一次流標 造成延宕這比例有多少我請蘇剛才回答來 簡單說明我相信你們應該已經有統計了就是說第一次因為沒有三家而無法開標的比例大概佔公開招標的70%70%"},{"start":312.416,"end":322.242,"text":"假設一年大概有六萬件的話大概有四萬多件是因為第一次沒有三家來而沒辦法開標的那平均延宕多久平均延宕要看那個"},{"start":326.377,"end":352.902,"text":"平均是11天11天但是因為它是大大小小的案件有的大案有的小案平均下來那可能當然是對金額比較高的案件影響比較大那小案本來它本質上就是比較輕微嘛所以平均下來大概是有這樣的延宕是啊 但是主委我想本席的選區也有很多重大公共工程是流標好幾次但是其實流標的問題"},{"start":354.602,"end":378.064,"text":"後來去做通盤檢討並不在於是說他沒有三家來投標他不夠三家而是說他的到底這個工程因為我常講殺頭生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做可能這個工程就是廠商他們來看了之後認為是說開的價格跟這個工程要完成的狀況其實是不合他的一個成本的所以他就不願意投標"},{"start":378.684,"end":401.389,"text":"因為剛才的11天是平均那如果說金額幾百億千億以上的大案那個第一次流標以後會時間比較長而且這個金額大有資格的廠商少往往政府機關採購機關就必須大幅的提高相關的預算那這個大幅提高相關預算如果因應"},{"start":402.409,"end":422.218,"text":"因應物價 因應相關的條件當然是也是必須的但是有時候是因為幾次沒有人投標那必須提高這個預算那麼這個也是導致重大公共工程延宕主委 因為現在都還在公告期間所以我們現在是意見的收納跟統整"},{"start":422.958,"end":451.629,"text":"本席也提出你剛這樣講話本席也提出另外的想法就是說如果說幾千億幾百億的大案第一這個案本來就相對比較少第二這樣子的案才需要更一流的廠商而不是只是便宜形式說我為了說要湊足三家廠商我變兩家或一家只要一家人來他符合投標資格我就可以給他發包出去而是應該是找到一個真真正正過去有時機並且也願意來投標的優良廠商嘛"},{"start":452.569,"end":472.434,"text":"所以這個部分我想你也聽到因為這都是報導上面有提過很多的一個部分所以我現在才想是說在公告之前防避是很重要的一個部分那心力就是說加速行政流程也是重要的部分但怎麼樣取得一個平衡點是不是全部都"},{"start":473.382,"end":499.808,"text":"解除三家的限制還是說最有利標解除最低價標不解除我覺得這都還是可以討論我們可以參與好那最後啊國防部最近的相關採購我想這個也要請教我們主管機關這個採購的主管機關甚至國防部長有難得動怒反向媒體說20年規定一樣只要能預約不用管說公司叫什麼名字登記在哪裡或說過去有沒有實務經驗"},{"start":501.721,"end":511.223,"text":"主委你對於這樣的講法能夠認同嗎這個是公司法的規定可能要請教經濟部啦這個公司他登記什麼項目我們現在講的是說我們要賣這個相關買採購不管是買炸藥買軍火買什麼可是為什麼搖身一變2014年以前都不是做這些本業的那突然間賣馬桶的也可以來幫忙買軍火"},{"start":524.906,"end":539.231,"text":"我的意思是說關於這個公司法登記營業項目如果有需要精進那就請經濟部提出精進那站在政府採購主管機關的立場您剛剛也提到幾百億或是幾十億的這種案要不要有經驗我們要呼籲政府採購機關在採購合約的時候應該"},{"start":546.334,"end":569.435,"text":"更加強調那麼廠商所需要服務的專業我們也呼籲廠商在採購合約裡面賣馬桶的有沒有賣軍火的專業不是 這個是涉及到賣茶葉的有沒有賣軍火的專業這個是涉及到公司的公司法裡面管理營業項目的登記這個目前不是工程會主管那麼經濟部他主管公司法他有他的規定"},{"start":570.336,"end":597.103,"text":"是啊 主委 但是您您是身為我們全中央主管機關的採購法的主管機關嘛那本席就想請教啊就是我們政府採購相關的一個條例裡面到底我們的專業認定在哪邊那如果說這樣的話因為為什麼本席特別點出這個問題國防預算從2016年馬政府時代最後一年編列3000億左右到現在一年我們的本預算成長到9000億"},{"start":599.09,"end":619.277,"text":"那人員的部分一回事那如果說口除人員以外其他都是採購啊那因為都是其他都是採購所以說我們才要更重視專業啊所以我剛很認同主委剛講法啊你一定要有相關的專業啊而不是像國防部長惱羞成怒講說為什麼要管他"},{"start":619.984,"end":642.82,"text":"為什麼要管他什麼名字什麼背景反正他能履約就好啦能夠這樣做嗎包委 站在政府採購的立場就剛主委講的要確保履約嘛那當然他必須具有專業所以他的政府採購的管控是分兩階段一個是所謂的基本的規格 基本的資料那這個機關他可以依據採購的個案去設定"},{"start":643.3,"end":663.857,"text":"那麼現在會衍生這個問題是因為在公司法的管制上面他並沒有不會去針對特別譬如說貿易他不會去講說你是做什麼樣的貿易除非他有所謂的專案有些特許的行業不能理論上他不會就做這個區隔但是在政府採購法上面如果說他達到是一個特殊的"},{"start":664.457,"end":688.377,"text":"或者是巨額的採購的時候他還可以再要求其他的譬如說他禮約的時機等等的所以事實上並不是採購本身設計有問題而是個案在執行的時候應該符合這幾個標準去執行比較不會跟社會的認知落差是 所以說這就是本席強調的為什麼在這件事情上面會奇怪的地方第一"},{"start":689.398,"end":717.191,"text":"為什麼很多的公司都是2024年之後搖身一變他去做變更營業項目登記然後就有軍火相關的項目他就可以來得標那再來是過去都沒有投標的經驗突然間他要來投標跨行 隔行如隔山就沒有想到他可以直接插進來然後國防部就可以得標而且他就可以有履約那某種程度上大家就覺得是說這樣子履約行不行他採購機關是可以限定一些時機啦"},{"start":718.709,"end":743.387,"text":"是那但是國防部現在都沒有設定國防部現在都沒有設定所以主委你講到重點啊你來行人啊所以你講到重點就是國防部現在都沒有設定任何的資格他就是完全open只要你能夠履約然後廠商就來投標就得標然後他過去也不看說他過去是賣馬桶的裝潢的賣茶葉的那買的是子彈欸買的是軍炸彈欸"},{"start":747.717,"end":775.991,"text":"那這些都是官兵弟兄地線要操作的那如果說有一個品質等相關不好的情況會不會造成官兵弟兄的危險還有剛才提到的它大部分都是貿易 國外進口它並不是自己生產所以採購機關 採購機關它事實上可以訂立相關條件是 所以沒有訂立是不是就有瑕疵有時候我們採購法就希望公平公正但也不能夠有一些過當的不當禁止"},{"start":777.011,"end":805.091,"text":"主委所以本席真的在這邊我們可以在交通文化好好的討論不帶任何立場今天是國民黨執政如果說有這樣子離譜的標案我一樣提出嚴正的指責是因為本席要的是國家的預算花在刀口上並且要的事不是說國內可以生產成本的價錢還要去跟國外購買買三倍四倍五倍的東西很多東西都是"},{"start":806.335,"end":822.335,"text":"講白了我們要在這邊做的事情是防弊也要心理行政部門效率要提升可是不能再因為預算增加從3000億變9000億頂變大了結果反而特定人士上下攜手的空間變多了所以我們這次修法裡面把"},{"start":824.117,"end":850.696,"text":"採購企業法案本把他這個剛性化來請貴文大院能夠支持將來工程會就更有工具來拘束機關管理政府採購的企業所以本席在這一次的這個禮拜的排案討論請詢答沒有逐條審查就是本席也要等行政院的版本也就是工程會1月15號公告完畢之後送行政院有沒有信心下個會期可以送進來下個會期可以"},{"start":850.956,"end":865.248,"text":"好 下個會議可以送進來那本席也會建議下個會期的召委我們送進來之後競速排審跟我們所有委員的案件一起來能夠修正我們來修正能夠除弊的還是要除弊可以嗎謝謝委員支持好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}