{"error":false,"id":["166783"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166783,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166783","日期":"2026-01-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-05T10:03:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-05T10:15:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b589da801288943b8e93011a53eea80ce16aea507db77ca691819d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:03:25 - 10:15:00","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【1月5日及8日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.70159375,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.076593750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.185343750000001,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.83409375,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.19409375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.64471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.38721875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.64409375,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.985343750000006,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.76096875,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.34159375,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.14284375,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.08659375,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.44471875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.54284375,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.45409375000001,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.78471875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.85221875,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.59721875,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.66471875000002,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.96846875,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.06909375,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.96034375000002,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.41534375,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.26284375,"end":203.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.60409375,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.54346875000002,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.66534375,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.12909375,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.62659375,"end":214.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.54159375,"end":217.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.49909375000001,"end":221.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.34221875,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.60721875000002,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.51221875000002,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.77784375000002,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.81909375,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.19034375,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.29159375,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.84846875000002,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.14784375,"end":306.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.68346875000003,"end":280.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.53159375,"end":311.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.39159375,"end":316.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.29784375,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.15159375,"end":346.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.60971875,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.99346875000003,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.03034375000004,"end":367.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.36596875000004,"end":374.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.30159375000005,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.06909375000004,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.22409375,"end":385.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.64159375,"end":387.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.39659375,"end":395.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.93534375,"end":410.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.07221875000005,"end":415.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.51034375,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.21471875000003,"end":435.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.18221875,"end":442.62846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主委"},{"start":78.426,"end":99.36,"text":"那個公共工程目前對這個所謂的錄製的產品或零件的管制原則第一個就是說如果涉及到治安或者是國安譬如說這個關鍵的基礎設施那這裡面可能要如果有問題的話要斷絕這個所謂的紅色的供應"},{"start":100.541,"end":129.309,"text":"那在個案裡面因為確實像委員講的因為這整個國際的貿易形態的關係可能沒有辦法百分之百的禁止所以目前是由機關那麼看標案本身的性質以及它的採購的目的如果說真的是沒有辦法它必須使用但是沒有國安考量的話也沒有其他產業上面對本國造成不公平的狀況底下原則上機關是可以例外去採用"},{"start":129.909,"end":159.749,"text":"好 据我目前了解掌握到了当然现在我们在做这个事情投标前是有透过经济部的相关平台就是主管机会去查说他当年当然他的投资的这个书面有没有问题嘛这第一个比较简单的部分那第二部分当然看说产品本身验收的时候这个产品本身他没有符合相关的这个产力的规范嘛但是我们从实务上看到过去几件当然这个跟大部分都跟国家安全比较有关系的几个单位包含中科院陆军司令部各单位还有桃园捷运等等的"},{"start":160.189,"end":185.565,"text":"它的理論上 包含說我們看到一個這個所謂的監視器主機的主機板它是在台檢疫組裝之後然後貼上面等於台灣 台灣製造的標籤或相關的很多的相關的採購都有這個問題所以我才問說到底我們訂了這樣子的規範那我們政府有沒有能力去在事前去查那如果事後被人家檢舉才發現的話那中間的空窗期的這個責任由誰來承擔"},{"start":187.663,"end":214.357,"text":"採購機關或它的上級機關它當然不一定要等驗收它隨時到工地都可以去查核那作為主管機關的工程會當然也有集合小組所以是盡力可以隨時都可以查核那我們碰到一些個案有時候是驗收的時候才發現有時候是當初沒有得票的廠商檢舉的所以這一類的情形算是情形也算嚴重那機關當然可以提報停權"},{"start":216.058,"end":239.372,"text":"來依照101的條文來提報停權這一類還是陸續有發生沒有錯我知道剛剛其實主委沒錯就是說會停權嘛會有相關的懲處但是我想問的是說因為這次已經發生了比如說我們列出這幾個案他已經發生了那發生後你們繼續停權那停權到新的廠商投標之前的這段時間的空窗期或這個部分的這個補救措施我們現在有機制做這個東西嗎"},{"start":241.564,"end":264.364,"text":"就這個階段這個時間空窗的時間要按照他的合約來做停權或者廢標的一些程序或是請副主委來講說那個就是有關這個怎麼去發現當然在採購法跟採購合約上面那麼機關他可以要求廠商提出證明譬如說你進口那你要提你的來源證明給我看嘛"},{"start":264.784,"end":281.19,"text":"那我們現在跟這個海關總署那邊有建立連結將來可以直接由廠商指定把這個進口報單報給機關他就可以查核但是比較難查的是貼牌那貼牌就要靠"},{"start":282.09,"end":306.082,"text":"查核檢驗或者是有內部檢舉那如果說他被發現有這樣的一個情況機關他會進行停權的程序在停權過程因為不確定是不是有過程停權可是就他這個機關本身他如果核有規定他可以禁止他來參與他本身這個機關的其他的標案但是就很難禁止他去參與其他機關的標案"},{"start":307.142,"end":320.951,"text":"因為這個庭前不確定如果說立即把他禁止的話也有可能最後發現是烏龍所以這兩者之間變成是有一個取捨了好 副主委我們先請你們等一下我們請國防部這個採購室採購發報處處長好了"},{"start":336.372,"end":354.153,"text":"剛好這幾個案子跟國防部都是比較有相關然後想請教一下就目前來說因為國軍採購是禁用所謂大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收的作業這部分那這部分的話你們因為房廠或因為茶廠然後在事前能夠發現的這個比例有多少大概有嗎"},{"start":355.515,"end":370.909,"text":"有發現過嗎事前如果去房廠因為你們有這個房廠的相關規定嘛在工程契約裡面可能有相關的規定那因為事前去房廠然後發現他的這個產品不合規的比例有嗎多多少少有發現過但是這個比例沒有來統計過"},{"start":374.372,"end":395.169,"text":"好那在你看到就其實因為我覺得第一個是我們現在已經有這樣發生已經已經有這麼多案件了那再一個比較核心問題是我們現在對美採購的武器也非常多那今年去年去年年中的時候有一個美國的這個數據分析公司他公布的最新的國安評論報告裡面光是五角大廈他的"},{"start":396.19,"end":414.562,"text":"這個一級的供應商裡面他有大概百分之十百分之九點三的這個產業是跟這個中國有關係是中國直接投資等等的那我想問說我們我國現在國防在採購裡面對於美國軍售部分我們有沒有辦法去禁止使用大陸的廠牌中國製造的廠牌跟產品我們有相關的條約嗎還是沒有"},{"start":417.367,"end":435.548,"text":"還是對美採購他只要美國願意送來他只要願意願意賣給我們我們只要買得到都可以他裡面的這些零組件有沒有使用到中國廠牌因為為什麼今天特別在這邊提出來這問題因為這個問題其實包括美國國會自己也非常關心說他們也是透過這一次的報告才發現原來他們自己"},{"start":436.469,"end":464.658,"text":"這個美國的一級的供應商裡面有這麼多的這個中國製的這個公司在裡面那今天我們主要的武器採購是對媒採購那採購完之後來到台灣因為我們自己有相關的規範那問題是我們對媒採購的合約條約裡面有沒有相關的規範過當然我們相關的發家書上面都有相關的綠定是禁止錄製品的採購的部分那如果來的話假設有是我們有我們有退貨的機制退貨機制吧好謝謝我們處長請回喔"},{"start":469.52,"end":497.498,"text":"主委 我要問的是說就是其實我們在整個公共工程委員會的採購的這個法裡面在你的機制裡面有沒有事前不管是你們也好或是各主管機關去做相關的這個查查或訪場的時候有沒有事前預防的機制如果有為什麼還會發生像前面提到的2025年光是2025年本身就有這麼多件相關的採購是用大陸製產品那未來要怎麼去避免這樣子的弊端"},{"start":499.907,"end":522.715,"text":"我們這次修法裡面要把這個企業範本把它剛性化就是說機關必須要遵循這個政府採購法裡面的相關規定或工程會訂定的企業範本來訂所以如果這樣子的話我們會把委員剛才所重視的在將來的各式的企業範本裡面來訂定是關於事前查核或者是相關大陸"},{"start":524.156,"end":537.132,"text":"這個中國相關的零件或相關產品的查核更加嚴謹這個我們會來研議好 四位那再來就是說這次修法裡面當然大家很關注的所謂三家廠商的這個資格問題那當然"},{"start":539.395,"end":561.822,"text":"所謂最有利標部分本席跟其他前面幾位委員的立場差不多最有利標當然有沒有三家我覺得一一差別不大但今天最大問題說這個低價搶標包含大家很在意的包含這個福邁這個東西這個RDX這個炸藥問題跟之前衛福部陶連部立醫院也發生過所謂低價搶標系統上的問題所以大家比較在意的是低價搶標"},{"start":563.743,"end":580.381,"text":"那這部分在新的規範裡面如果沒有三家的問題只有一家可以來低價搶標會不會又造成大家這個市場上的亂象產生因為我覺得今天講真的啦有時候那個低價搶標問題有時候是品質你沒有辦法達到那如果你"},{"start":581.676,"end":597.01,"text":"超比這個本來的底標低於底標的比例多少有沒有相關的機制去杜絕說他特別用低價比如說我用五成六成的價格來搶標我當然搶到啊但問題是他後面的品質怎麼維護等等的這部分在新的修法版本裡面你們要怎麼去預防這件事情"},{"start":597.65,"end":614.467,"text":"報告委員那個有關低價搶標這個事情目前在採購法上面已經有規定了就是說他假設低於底價八成那麼他就必須提出他為什麼可以確保品質如果說還不行還可以叫他提擔保"},{"start":614.887,"end":629.921,"text":"那這個規定目前我們又更把它強化了所以並不會這個他有沒有低價來搶標邏輯上面跟他有沒有三家是沒有必然關係因為他縱使是一家他也要受到不能低價來的這個限制這跟委員報告"},{"start":630.6,"end":644.959,"text":"最後點時間 因為這個照片站起來所以在實質上的成本控制因為今天我們政府機關定出所謂最低標你們一定有你們的市場價格你們仿商的結果定出一個最低標所以包含說你叫他提出說明"},{"start":645.72,"end":660.754,"text":"那我是覺得其實工程會應該更積極的應該有一個委員或一個審核機制去認定說到底這件工程它實質上它的成本本來就應該是多少至少業界價格應該多少而不是說我低價來七成那七成可以嗎"},{"start":662.774,"end":678.899,"text":"這個採購機關他事先會仿價按照他的這個市場行情會仿價所以他會訂定他的底價那往往這些大概都比較金額比較低的採用底價標那現在大部分金額高的大概都是有利標"},{"start":679.659,"end":694.335,"text":"好 沒關係 主委 因為我後期也會提一個提案啦 就針對成本實質審核的部分 應該希望共產會能夠幫忙啦 我就希望到時候共產會跟我們大院 大家都能夠支持去杜絕這種惡質的這種低價搶票的行為發生 好不好好 好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}