{"error":false,"id":["166798"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166798,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166798","日期":"2026-01-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-05T10:54:38+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-05T11:09:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58953da8119fb62b473011a53eea80ce164a653833dddfd2f1f5ff160f27f5ee205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:54:38 - 11:09:12","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【1月5日及8日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.37221875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.94034375,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.02159375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":47.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.77034375,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.20846875,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.212218750000005,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.59159375,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.05284375000001,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.10721875000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.36784375000002,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.54659375,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.44846875000002,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.97971875000002,"end":180.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.36971875,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.31034375000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.14971875,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.68096875,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.08846875,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.16846875000002,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.19659375,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.22534375,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.67596875,"end":233.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.39096875,"end":234.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.42471875,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.63534375,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.28909375,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":242.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.06471875000003,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.91221875000002,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.36784375000002,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.55721875,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.41721875000002,"end":257.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.17221875,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.88909375000003,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.99846875000003,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.55909375000005,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.74034375,"end":271.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.29221875,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.30034375,"end":280.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.99971875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.12971875,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.97346875,"end":295.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.91721875,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.98409375,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.29971875,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.94909375000003,"end":317.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.38221875,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.98971875,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.12659375000004,"end":362.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.01221875000005,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.98659375,"end":369.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.82971875000004,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.335968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謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委請委員長好 陳主委我想今天這個政府採購法政府採購法因為我印象深刻我正好民國87年87年擔任中立市市民代表剛開始從政然後正好是我們那時候採購法上路的那一年"},{"start":33.081,"end":56.502,"text":"所以今年我們發掘針對於很多食物上就是這些卡卡的東西我也看到你們都啟動了去修正我也聽到了我們政府採購單位我又訪問一下包括地方政府相關一些部分大家對於整個修法的過程目前看起來方向肯定還是稍微多了多一點當然我們來看一下"},{"start":57.663,"end":76.668,"text":"在整個採購法 現金制度 招標的方式公開招標 現值金招標 選擇金招標這基本上分三大類看起來 限數來說現值金招標最多在70% 這個統計但是現值金招標有時候顧問公司它的金額相對有時候不見得那麼大"},{"start":77.488,"end":91.937,"text":"稍微比較簡單的那限制營招標佔70%可是真正的金額所以在重大工程很多金額動輒數百億甚至地方政府幾億的一個工程那我們發覺以金額來算"},{"start":93.098,"end":109.65,"text":"公開招標還佔55%所以在公開招標的一個制度裡面這一次你們也做了一些調整其中包括了公開招標就第一次招標一定要有三家三家才可以做一個開標"},{"start":110.851,"end":137.982,"text":"那其他限制型招標跟選擇型招標雖然限制型招標量那麼大不過因為金額重要的都不在那裡所以很多的重大工程甚至一些急迫性的工程甚至一些明明就只有少數專業的一個廠商才可以做的工程就還是要再等等等等等到後面那等到後面會發生一些滿可怕的事因為重大工程因為在交通部裡面很多這種狀況"},{"start":139.443,"end":162.191,"text":"一拖再拖拖的時候經費又不夠拖到第三次上網挖發覺這次是真的經費完全不夠然後又開始牽扯找經費整個再來惡性循環所以在整個的一個看你修法的一個主要的一個過程做一個整理第一個就是第一次招標就是不用三家限制一家就可以開標"},{"start":163.496,"end":185.905,"text":"那第二個最有利標就也不要上級機關去核准了像我們現在鄉鎮市公所區公所在我要決定要最有利標公告金額以上的要做最有利標那都要上級機關做核准當然這也是時間的問題啊時間的問題那這是第二個第三個小額採購當然是公告金額150萬"},{"start":187.928,"end":197.696,"text":"現在是十分之一 你把十分之一修掉了 你說各個地方政府 中央機關 那你們自己因地制宜來規定 也就是說可能"},{"start":200.274,"end":218.726,"text":"50萬甚至100萬只要150萬以內都可以那第四個你們也加強惡質廠商的處罰的一個機制因為我想問一件事就總和來說其實採購法法條那麼多但是最大的精神都是希望能夠找到做出來有品質"},{"start":219.767,"end":233.649,"text":"跟有效率的一個公共工程我覺得在整個的一個目前整個修法的制度你覺得能夠怎麼樣有效落實我覺得品質是滿重要的你來說一下好不好"},{"start":234.714,"end":249.751,"text":"第一個就是政府採購法這個修就是說立法之初原立法者就是採取比較防弊的角色而且非常的嚴格的角度來立這個法"},{"start":252.034,"end":280.429,"text":"那當中當然有修但是沒有大的改變所以我們這次是參著採購機關還有各界的意見那麼做一些適當的修改那麼我們希望透過程序的簡便那麼有一些束縛讓採購機關比較方便但是沒有影響到採購的品質那選出最好的廠商就怎麼選商怎麼做好工程這部分在既有的規範之下那都可以來進行"},{"start":281.109,"end":307.267,"text":"那採購的部分我們做了一些修正好 這一次在採購法修正由於第一次招標一家以上那我們一家以上就可以招標我要特別有注意到一個狀況我覺得對於一些重大工程這絕對是一個正面的訊息不過我第一次看到一個修法就是讓我感受到是優質廠商劣質廠商一起放鞭炮 真的"},{"start":308.768,"end":329.703,"text":"這兩個極端這個優質廠商他可以節省很多經費好好做公共工程不要為這個行政採購法拖那麼久那所謂厚質廠商有心的廠商他也很開心他很開心他開心什麼原因呢就是我們從民國39年開始之前的法律營產工程一路到現在就是防弊的機制"},{"start":330.464,"end":358.937,"text":"那在早期來說它是要多成本可能如果你要去做一個微標或者去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情你還要花蠻多的一個成本在現代雖然網路上但是它相關的一個風險還是非常非常大它成本也非常高為什麼你要找人微標你要不要通訊你要不要記錄你要不要來來去去相關的很多一個訊息未來如果真的有出問題的時候在我們法務部門它要查證其實"},{"start":360.437,"end":386.775,"text":"資料是比較多的如果現在有心人的心還是沒變所謂的二級廠商他一進來就會說太開心了就是大門開了其實窗戶後面的小門全開了所以我是覺得正面的效益當然多於負面的時候我們還是要做我是認為還是要做但是我覺得有一些防弊的機制我覺得真的還是要特別的一個注意其中第三項"},{"start":387.856,"end":414.982,"text":"小兒採購150萬因為現在已經有很多的一個制度我覺得因為已經沒辦法因為你要全國試用可是你要知道有很多的偏鄉有一些的公所他一年的預算兩億扣掉人事預算其實這樣沒有多少錢他現在大部分的招標對於像這樣的偏鄉有一些小地方甚至小單位他現在150萬公告金額以下的公告金額以上根本不用外聘委員"},{"start":416.022,"end":435.516,"text":"對不對不用外聘委員假設你已經休了一家也可以我就內聘委員五個科長就上了我覺得一點困難都沒有已經都沒有困難了那現在又三家都不必那像這樣的一個情況就是說大的我們要處理交通部一個國家級的建設這個思維我支持"},{"start":436.357,"end":452.198,"text":"那可是像這樣的搞不好有些有些機關他一年根本沒有超過150萬的這些的問題的時候他是放得很鬆那我們就只能相信這個人的問題那我覺得這個的部分你們對於這種的風險有沒有什麼雖然"},{"start":453.459,"end":467.835,"text":"利多於弊那這個弊的部分就採購法制度你有沒有什麼樣的想法我們有一些配套措施第一個就是機關當預算民意機關審訊之後在一定期間之內他必須公告"},{"start":468.836,"end":493.384,"text":"今年度 比如說採購預算是多少 要做什麼事情 相關計畫要公告再來就是說 相關的領投標機制 我們今天政府採購法有增加電子投標除了電子領標之外 電子投標 現在資訊那麼公開所以不至於變成一個資訊鎖壁 說機關它為所欲為我只找一個A朋友來就可以了 因為其他人都知道這裡有一個案"},{"start":494.324,"end":509.957,"text":"所以包括這個開標等標期要展年等等都有一些配套措施好的 現在時代很多的真的不一樣因為在早期的時候十二十年前是真的一堆大小的採購單位一堆人要來標"},{"start":511.278,"end":531.948,"text":"現在是一堆人不要來標你也知道嘛就是上網你網多方便我就不要來領到底發生了什麼事從過去的趨之若鹜到現在很多的不騙你很多的近而遠之啊三個就這四個原因嘛到底預算跟市場有蠻多案子是脫節的所以造成了我這個來"},{"start":533.408,"end":554.313,"text":"利潤低 法律風險極高法律最少的部分在政府單位跟你行政命令公文我就弄不完了一不小心要跑法院 嚇都嚇死第二個當然最低標的一個制度大家就有一些固定的廠商在那裡他就可以拿到很便宜的或者標到之後他很有辦法"},{"start":554.833,"end":582.627,"text":"不知道什麼原因第三 外在的因素這也不用講啦有一些可能土地要取得有些因素嘛民眾有意見甚至缺工料前幾天是但是我覺得第四項是很重要的很多人心灰意冷從熱忱到現在不玩了再怎麼跟大家講改制度完它也不來的原因就是供給政府的效率但我不是講你啊講包括中央地方的一個政府折磨啊折磨人怎麼折磨呢"},{"start":583.708,"end":592.468,"text":"從招標文件的時候當然你現在有一條講說強制性我們政府的招標大家都用同一套不要再加那麼多附屬一個"},{"start":593.737,"end":618.011,"text":"附屬的一個卡關卡人的一個點這是一個滿重要的你在招標文件的時候特別你有制式化的現在因為很多的機關他覺得他要再增加很多一個條文那這個部分未來到底要怎麼樣去做會不會減少這方面的問題第二個其實整個從評選一個階段開始人為的一個因素"},{"start":619.271,"end":635.723,"text":"這個也發生了很多的問題所以現在產生為什麼優質機關跟惡質機關他們同樣放鞭炮在你這個修法的過程中我覺得一定要特別注意這個訊息因為人的因素太重要"},{"start":636.423,"end":653.251,"text":"我們現在碰到很多人心灰意冷走人的我們覺得還不錯的廠商後面很多都是人但我覺得很可惜這些政府的採購人員就我所看到的其實我認為九成五九成五都很優他甚至怕他比廠商還怕他守得很緊"},{"start":654.392,"end":668.359,"text":"但是確實這中間也有蠻大一部分這個人的因素人的因素包括我們現在辦公室還有一個陳情還借到一個陳情陳情五千多萬的工程來陳情的陳情的要做什麼你知道"},{"start":669.758,"end":695.207,"text":"就跟他跪下來 跪下來我退場好不好 饒了我退場 我不玩了他說跟他說對不起我不知道你的工程有固定的廠商在那邊做我烏魯叢林了 我跟你對不起我可以不要再折磨我了我們遇到這種 所以這個人的問題我覺得是非常非常的重要你知道我現在多少的工程我讓你驗過你就驗過我讓你驗不過"},{"start":698.66,"end":727.408,"text":"你就驗不過你驗過了我拖你半年一年我才付錢我馬上給你錢都可以你現在這種人為機制讓很多的優質廠商我就好好做然後可是可能做得比人家好但是也遇到這些問題這個的部分有沒有什麼樣的機制可以去導正這次我們有關於估驗期要縮短估驗次數要增加讓廠商不用承擔那麼多的"},{"start":728.208,"end":744.486,"text":"这个带电款这个是希望这个机关对厂商的一个改善刚才委员讲的没有错那委员因为担任过地方政府的首长所以你知道现在很多比方说尤其地方政府他那个采购人员是非常痛苦的我们这个"},{"start":748.13,"end":761.095,"text":"這個小額採購以上然後金額不大但是他要去採購要去符合三家以上等等這些程序所以造成很多不必要的沒有效率所以我們這次有做一些修正主要那我最後一個建議"},{"start":762.395,"end":787.451,"text":"不用三家一家但是我建議說你們的指導原則因為現在有太多的機關都是用最低的最低的上網那個期間我既然只有一次就第一次基本上有一家就可以我覺得要稍微寬鬆一點讓大家在網路上甚至裡面有很多的訊息你要投稿的文件要準備並不是這麼快所以我倒是覺得說在很多機關"},{"start":788.611,"end":816.246,"text":"確實都用最短的那個期限我是希望能夠所以我們希望稍微等標期要長那怎麼長呢我們這裡面這次修法就是把契約範本要剛性化所以工程會當政府採購法修法通過之後工程會重新訂定相關的契約範本包括剛才委員所指導的等標期要長要怎麼長那這些我們都會重新訂定拘束採購機關來做這些事情好啦 等標期相對"},{"start":817.486,"end":834.558,"text":"相對要稍微長一點因為第一次就可能然後但是驗收沒問題付款真的要規定一下啦那不是說我愛簽不簽在那邊卡在哪裡我覺得這樣很不好最後一個因為今天法務部門也在這裡現在修很多法案因為都是授權給地方政府"},{"start":835.459,"end":855.656,"text":"我覺得好像很多 到時候很多機關在看你這個小額採購為什麼某某是縣政府市政府是五十萬現在是十五萬變成五十萬變成他們優先調查的一個機關我跟你講這法律弄完弄了之後公務人員真的他們覺得正面"},{"start":856.457,"end":871.462,"text":"但是要他們責任加注他們責任他們才很害怕很害怕所以我們希望你整個的很多的指導指引相關的部分能夠我們工程會來負責的我希望你能夠多負一點責任好不好好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}