{"error":false,"id":["166918"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166918,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166918","日期":"2026-01-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-15-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-07T10:19:34+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-07T10:28:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4c96576720987867781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:19:34 - 10:28:01","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.65096875,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.52659375,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.03659375,"end":49.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.79534375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.08159375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.815343750000004,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.48971875,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.24784375,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.48284375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.91596875,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.21034375,"end":97.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.12471875,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.29159375,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.18596875,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.87346875,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.59284375000001,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.06471875,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.95471875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.68784375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.45971875,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.80971875,"end":148.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.02034375000002,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.20909375000002,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.33034375,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.43096875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.46471875,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.04221875000002,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.51784375,"end":179.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.36159375,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.54284375,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.08284375000002,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.50534375,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.53909375,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.83221875,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.17284375000003,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.74534375000002,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.18409375000002,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.66596875,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.34409375,"end":278.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.70471875000004,"end":283.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.32846875,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":301.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":305.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.37534375,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.38221875000005,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.95409375,"end":358.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.87784375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.77284375000005,"end":384.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.61221875,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.49346875000003,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":393.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.64409375,"end":404.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.73596875000004,"end":406.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.14471875000004,"end":406.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.38096875,"end":406.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.87034375,"end":411.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.35909375,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.506593750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何謂委員我想在第四條裡面的條文非常清楚就是說他是要鼓吹戰爭來消滅我國主權"},{"start":124.847,"end":144.765,"text":"所以鼓吹戰爭是一個非常明確的概念那剛剛委員所提的幾個例子都不在這個範圍裡面那你可不可以舉例就是只要大概是什麼樣的講法就是你可不可以示例一下委員剛舉的三個例子比如說主張台灣獨立或者是主張這個和平協議或者是主張跟"},{"start":145.605,"end":168.787,"text":"各個國家他想要跟 兩岸和平交流不是和平協議和平交流也是一樣 這都是屬於言論自由的範圍我們並不在國安法第四條修法的這個範圍裡面所以您是不是可以明確講如果就您現在來講 因為這法案還沒過嘛就您來講 什麼樣的情況會是您說的鼓吹戰爭要由相關部會來查譬如說過去有好幾個網紅在"},{"start":171.63,"end":184.623,"text":"這個網路上鼓吹解放軍攻擊台灣或者是歡迎解放軍攻擊台灣這一類的言論我們基本上就是鼓吹戰爭就是好很明確很明確很明確齁好那第二個我來請教一下齁就是說"},{"start":185.53,"end":203.827,"text":"現在就是第四條的部分就是就像你之前講如果有一些這個網紅如果講說武統台灣這個當然本席也非常不支持如果這種言論就一定支持就會 就像你講的會罰最高是一百萬元那現在的處罰是如何如果這個草案還沒通過的話現在有相關的處罰嗎"},{"start":204.768,"end":218.076,"text":"跟委員報 我們事實上有另外一條是刑法151條那刑法151條有提到說以加害生命、身體財產之事恐嚇公眾、致危害於公安者他會處兩年以下有期徒刑所以這是屬於刑法的範圍"},{"start":218.939,"end":233.965,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到包括這個國安法第四條他是介於我們的刑法151條跟言論自由中間的這個灰色地帶所以剛剛委員所提到就是說如果以目前來講進行這個言論如果他有明確的主張要攻擊的對象的話他會落到刑法151條"},{"start":235.265,"end":256.11,"text":"那如果沒有一個具體的攻擊對象他只是說鼓吹戰爭的話我們目前是沒有法律可以處理那這個對國人來講他造成很大的心理威脅所以剛剛在報告的時候也提到因為我們現在面對非常嚴峻的國安威脅所以這一類的言論我們必須按照國際公約相關的規定有所管制這個是提出這個法案修正的一個目的"},{"start":256.701,"end":277.576,"text":"好 謝謝鄭次因為您剛剛的回應我相信未來這個我們都可以來審視也希望行政單位在審查人民的言論的時候要特別的注意就是就像你講的範圍是明確的不是說不明確那第二個我要請教就是今天很多委員也特別在程序發言提到第四之一條就是在網路"},{"start":278.757,"end":301.3,"text":"的部分會不會讓人民在網路上的一些言論要求一些我們現在大家所知道的一些Facebook這些社群媒體要來把它給下架所以剛剛也有我們其他委員說這不就是數位重借法的借屍還魂嗎那41條裡面有特別的提到我來跟你簡單敘述一下"},{"start":301.88,"end":329.111,"text":"他說內政部可以會經法務部速發部陸委會得令網際網路平台提供者在網際網路平台內容就是裡面就是可以來去限制一些終止一些服務的措施那裡面你們在立法說明裡面有提到如果偽冒我國政治人物談話相關不實或不當言論可能造成無法回復的損害就要管制的必要"},{"start":329.451,"end":344.048,"text":"那我想要請問裡面的內容什麼叫做可能造成無法管制的損害以及什麼叫做相關不實或不當言論這個由誰來決定而且內政部你們怎麼去做這件事你們有這樣的量能去做這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":345.208,"end":363.638,"text":"這個部分還是要跟我們包括法務部跟入委會我們要來延伸整個這個標準但是跟委員報告過去這一類的言論並不是說完全沒有我們行政管制的措施比如說兒少性影像的問題或是說詐騙的問題我們直接就是用行政手段請他來停止不然的話他對"},{"start":364.758,"end":381.952,"text":"後續的危害會造成更大的一個風險就像我們這次北捷的事件一樣我們如果沒有在這後面的兩個星期將網路上所有威脅公眾的這個言論下架的話那就會造成我們民眾到跨年都還在恐慌這個事情所以我想這個標準是一致的非常一致的"},{"start":383.093,"end":405.916,"text":"不好意思 趁勢你要沒有回答我的問題現在講的是有關於這個就是說什麼叫做偉貌我國政治人物的談話相關不實跟不當言論這個是什麼樣的舉例你可以舉例是什麼樣的內容比如說如果有帳號偽造委員的這個談話然後用AI生成或者是用其他的方式或是扭曲發言如果有這樣的做法未來會如何處罰"},{"start":406.937,"end":435.857,"text":"我們目前的話 按照第四條之一我們會用會審的方式來處理那如何處罰處罰就按照第四條的規定就是法 也是最高法以來對 它也是行政法 它就是行政處分所以本席想要請教政次的原因就是說其實這樣子的處罰的內容跟這樣子的認定內容其實現在各部會其實沒有一個如何去判斷所以第一個我們要提的是說到底是哪一個主管機關來確認說這些是錯誤或不實的訊息其實剛剛政次裡面有特別"},{"start":436.537,"end":445.024,"text":"的這個回應那如果就這樣子因為很多人會轉傳信息嘛LINE上看到訊息就轉傳那如果這樣子的話民眾就會被處罰"},{"start":446.57,"end":465.242,"text":"的話我會認為就是行政權會來決定人民可以看什麼不能看什麼這個標準沒有很確定會讓人覺得是有行政的擴權的一個問題那比如說比如說現在我們有想說如果民眾去轉發的內容如果這樣子的話就會被罰我覺得"},{"start":467.046,"end":483.494,"text":"還是要請馬政司喔 這個我們基本上行政手段還是會有一個橫平性不會說轉發或是什麼我們就完全去做處分這個要看個案的狀況所以剛剛我們主席也宣布我們會召開公聽會我想在公聽會的過程裡面應該會有不同的意見我們會再來收整"},{"start":484.09,"end":504.341,"text":"好那最後還是要拜託馬政司就是在公聽會的時候我們是支持這個國家安全可是不能讓國家安全變成國安之民行擴權之時那就是說還是要在公聽會的時候也是要請你們再把我們提出來的問題再仔細來說明好謝謝委員我們不會擴權我們是基本上就是依照證據來處理這個問題好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}