{"error":false,"id":["166924"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166924,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166924","日期":"2026-01-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-15-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-07T11:15:05+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-07T11:25:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:24","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f8e5189ad668d98c9781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e96455311a68b89ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:15:05 - 11:25:29","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.15159375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.88534375,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.25659375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.296593750000003,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.35096875000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.45221875,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.49784375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.77971875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.75409375000001,"end":104.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.69409375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.70284375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":133.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.13659375,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.82346875000002,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.90784375,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.95846875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.19471875000002,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.94971875000002,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.52346875,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.74284375000002,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.99596875,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.33284375000002,"end":150.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.61534375000002,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.11721875,"end":155.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.34846875000002,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.38221875000002,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.46659375000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.50034375,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.73659375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.22971875000002,"end":159.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.34346875,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.81971875000002,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.69659375,"end":174.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.22284375,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.37409375000001,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.81221875,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":192.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.23721875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.12721875000003,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.16096875000002,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.37096875,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.76096875000002,"end":218.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.64659375000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.42596875,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.44284375,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.74659375000002,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.89846875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.19784375,"end":253.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.04971875,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.20159375,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.14221875,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.45534375000003,"end":280.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.64909375,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.21409375,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.88159375000004,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.93971875,"end":295.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.07846875,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPE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我們請內政部馬次長跟法務部徐次長市長好"},{"start":15.984,"end":41.266,"text":"我想請教一下就是馬司長因為其實這一次國安法的修法的一個內容為什麼引起一些質疑就是因為在這次修法的草案的第二條我們把這個將參與組織本身就入罪就是他就是違反這個國安的問題那但是呢有些參與組織的人他並不知道該組織本身可能已經有犯的這個"},{"start":42.314,"end":68.667,"text":"相關的法令它可能只是其中一個成員而已那所以說它不是以實際有刺密 泄密或具體危害行為的一個要件而是用這個而且我們在這個立法說明裡面也講得很清楚就是說犯罪行為人主觀上是否有意圖舉證上是有困難的所以呢現在就是用一個刑事 適性犯的構成要件來去做認定"},{"start":69.332,"end":84.641,"text":"那也就是說以前我們還要檢察官還必須要證明他是主觀的有這個意圖那現在拿掉之後是不是變成只要證明行為加上該組織有這樣子的一個足以身為害就能夠定罪"},{"start":85.489,"end":111.187,"text":"我跟委員報告犯罪本身就要有主觀的範例這個是一定要有的那如果說這個行為的人他本身對於這一個組織是完全沒有認知的他完全都不知道他只是參加完全不知道他們在做什麼這樣就不會有問題不會有過程犯罪那所以請問你們拿掉意圖這兩個字的意圖就是因為他意圖要危害社會的安定國家安全跟社會安定他有那個意圖他去"},{"start":111.627,"end":127.905,"text":"去发展这个组织就是这样才会构成的第二条第一项的所以我的意思是说以前的现在目前的官法是有现在就是因为主观的犯例藏在我们的心中是非常难证明的那因为难证明所以"},{"start":128.766,"end":153.075,"text":"有時候檢察官偵辦的時候會必須要擴大因為我們要去證明他的辦理檢察官變成說他要偵辦的範圍會變大不明確那現在因為難偵辦現在一定要客觀上對 現在是因為難偵辦所以把這個意圖拿掉讓以後這檢察官比較好偵辦標準不一樣 標準不一樣就是說我們不再去那以後檢察官會不會就說好 我就是認定我就是認定你有意圖勒"},{"start":155.976,"end":174.099,"text":"主觀犯例要有而是意圖把它具體化改成改成是四刑犯就是足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安定就是說在客觀的事實上面是看得出來這個對國家針對這個部分我也要請問其他兩位次長就是足以生危害的標準是什麼你們現在說改成嘛 足以生危害 足以生危害的標準是什麼譬如說這一個組織好他是在在這個我們社會裡面"},{"start":184.895,"end":197.702,"text":"他經常會去從事一些這個攻擊政府攻擊一般的民眾社會的大眾他有那一些就是說危害到你可以具體的舉例一下嗎因為你現在講的感覺上也是非常空泛那認定有誰來認定"},{"start":200.461,"end":218.39,"text":"現在看起來我們很多修法是改由內政部來認定而不是像以前由司法單位來認定那像這樣的狀況的話要怎麼來因為剛剛講的其實都是很空泛的也是民眾所擔心的未來的國安法我可能不小心就已經這個就是違反了國安法我自己都不知道"},{"start":220.061,"end":244.816,"text":"之前發生的向德恩的簽署那個書類就是投降的書類這個之前就是這個對民眾太遙遠了我是覺得我的意思就是說很多民眾現在為什麼擔憂這一次的修法其實當然國家安全非常的重要但是呢因為現在就是修了很多的法令讓我們覺得說很多未來好像"},{"start":245.296,"end":269.769,"text":"尤其是有些本來是在司法單位才能夠認定現在變成是內政部內政部就可以直接進行裁判我們會參與對 內政部 會商 你們法務部嘛對 但主要是內政部就有一個主責單位像以前我們可以看一下下一頁您可以看一下我們有關的這個第四條的這個修正就是有關公開我們現在第四條已經"},{"start":271.089,"end":291.859,"text":"新增了公開鼓吹倡議或支持戰爭及處以高額的行政罰款那請問一下兩位次長如何界定鼓吹跟評論分析跟轉述的一個界線是否存在的行政機關會以保護官的官單介入鼓吹是很直接的就是鼓吹戰爭鼓吹打仗鼓吹"},{"start":292.699,"end":311.396,"text":"中國對台灣軍事侵略這個都是很明確的那如果說一般的人做評論分析或是轉述評論分析不在這個範圍內所以也跟委員報告比如說主張跟中國統一我知道很多委員的煩惱是說如果主張跟中國統一跟菲律賓跟越南統一他不在這個範圍內那都是言論自由一般我說實在鼓吹跟這個評論鼓吹戰爭鼓吹戰爭還有這個"},{"start":319.463,"end":342.13,"text":"只要是公開鼓吹倡議跟支持標準那這個因為剛剛您講的鼓吹那有明確的定義嗎比如說我們現在如果說我們主管機關現在就是內政部嘛如果你們有一個主觀的一個判斷介入言論自由的一個風險的話那民眾要怎麼來報委員這個不是主觀判斷因為我們剛剛有提到第一個它有國際上的公約的標準"},{"start":342.91,"end":346.213,"text":"所以我們不會是一個主觀我們不會是主觀判斷不會第二個就是說我們跟法務部還有陸委會我們會會商這個言論本身的內容跟他的直接對於鼓吹這件事情是不是很具體"},{"start":359.686,"end":382.415,"text":"因為以前我想我們相關的這個國安法很多大家經過司法的認定其實我們可以看一下尤其是第四條之一就是大家看到第四條之一之後就會想到在數年前有一個數位仲介服務法因為引起了這個全民公憤而且被輿論攻擊的體無完膚所以暫時的就被迫暫緩這個數位仲介服務法"},{"start":382.975,"end":396.55,"text":"那我們現在看到你可以看一下內政部的第4條之一就賦予內政部在情節重大或急迫危險的情況下可以進行命令停止解析或限制接取網路的內容那請問一下這個馬次長就說"},{"start":399.617,"end":417.056,"text":"為何在未設置事前或即時司法審判機制那行政機關就是內政部會不會扮演了認定裁決跟執行者的三種角色跟委員舉的例子比如說我們現在酒駕酒駕我們直接就是扣車然後如果他有公務危險罪的話我們就移送法辦"},{"start":418.017,"end":435.429,"text":"這個也是我們 對 他很明確所以我們現在不是只有我們現在是國安法的部分事實上我們其他的法律都有類似的規範只要是對於公眾或者是對於這個安全造成具體的威脅所以剛剛委員舉的這個例子比如說我們今天假設中共在軍演"},{"start":436.129,"end":454.664,"text":"那麼中共在軍演的過程裡面又有人主張就是說這個軍演趕快進到台灣來這就是一個非常明確的立即的威脅因為它可能是集體性的飽和攻擊我們現在講的是我所謂的網路的第四條可以看一下我們下一頁就是我們有做了一個比較就是在國安法新增的第四條之一"},{"start":459.423,"end":480.733,"text":"像是行政機關直接就可以下令移除或限制以前數位仲介服務法還需要由這個原則上報委它的情境不一樣它的情境不一樣因為數位仲介法它是針對比較一般性的數位平台上面的一個治理那麼國家安全法它是針對一個特定情境所以我剛剛有跟國民報告說如果今天解放軍在外海軍演"},{"start":481.733,"end":495.819,"text":"有這個飽和性的訊息攻擊的時候我們就會採取這個重大的示範民眾會擔憂就是因為很多的界定不清楚比如說像大家一下子就會想到欸這是不是數位仲介法不是這個跟委包這完全不一樣而且是加強版的對不一樣的狀況要讓他這個也沒有加強數位仲介法還是一樣他應該要處理的問題跟我們沒有關係對沒有現在沒有對數位仲介法別的國家有我們沒有引起很大一個反彈"},{"start":508.484,"end":532.088,"text":"那當然我們現在可以看到就是說這個部分的話就是而且比如說像我們現在想說有一些是錯假訊息可能也會違反比如說今天假設說我們在在野黨的立委在我們的臉書上寫說因為國家錯誤的這個能源政策會造成經濟上很大的一個損失那是客觀評論那就是客觀評論那好"},{"start":535.409,"end":556.087,"text":"請問主觀跟客觀的評論有誰認定包委員這不是主觀跟客觀的問題這是評論本身的惡意的與否因為如果今天只是指政府的施政不利或者是說政府施政有錯誤這個都是屬於評論那剛剛我們提到就是說這種所謂的重大對於國家的安全造成威脅的言論是直接對"},{"start":557.128,"end":562.174,"text":"中華民國要採取攻擊的行為這才會構成這樣的一個要件今天我們質詢的主要的相關內容其實也是很多民眾疑慮的就是認為未來的一些比如說判定是不是有違反國家安全其實現在看起來的條文"},{"start":573.007,"end":590.659,"text":"都會讓大家覺得心生畏懼 會有寒蟬效應我覺得未來的言論委員會有什麼效應這個不會有心生畏懼的問題但事實上就是這樣所以為什麼我們今天會有這樣的一個質詢就是希望說這些疑慮要讓大家安心要讓你的民眾不會覺得言論的自由我們會把它再解釋清楚也不會覺得說我今天因為"},{"start":594.521,"end":621.561,"text":"說了某些言論就有可能會被入法而且現在還不是到法院去現在是這個內政區它是行政處分所以不用去法院現在內政部是所謂的天下第一大部喔未來喔我們已經小很多了啦對我覺得現在內政部看起來哇這個職權又更大沒有沒有我們小很多了跟委員報告我們已經移出去給衛福部了必須有責任喔必須有責任讓民眾知道不要讓大家照我們一定會盡責把這件事情講清楚謝謝委員謝謝委員支持謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}