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國安會還發聲明罵我們"},{"start":2092.18,"end":2120.507,"text":"說我們違反憲政的慣例我都覺得很奇怪國家安全委員會組織法明確的規定受立法院的監督請你來不來立法院要如何監督更可笑的是說我們違反憲政慣例之前民進黨在野的時候馬英九執政的時候國安會秘書長沒有來"},{"start":2122.469,"end":2126.172,"text":"那個時候 召委段宜康一樣通過譴責案只有同一個國家安全會議會隨著誰執政 誰在野標準有所不同今天國家安全會議秘書長吳釗燮上一次發那個譴責的聲明他說他很遺憾我老實講真的要覺得遺憾的是台灣人民"},{"start":2152.563,"end":2180.144,"text":"出了這麼大的包搞神隱吳釗燮現在是怎麼樣國安會的太上皇說不來就不來整個國會拿他沒皮條然後今天要來這邊解凍國安會的預算昭偉你覺得這樣適合嗎這樣今天還適合處理得下去嗎是不是可以請議事人員聯絡啊"},{"start":2181.956,"end":2204.901,"text":"請國安會秘書長來他今天不來這個預算結斷要怎麼處理這樣喔 因為我個人...沒有啦 召委我插一個話啦我們作為委員會的委員是沒有召委的權利啦可以直接準價不準價 愛來就不來要聯絡恐怕也是我們立法院司法法制委員會這邊作為一個組織體的責任吧"},{"start":2208.776,"end":2223.348,"text":"因為國安會的組織條例第八條其實已經寫得很清楚了那我也不懂說國安會為什麼一直不來國安會秘書長為什麼一直不來那他每次給我回的都叫做憲政慣例但我不知道憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條"},{"start":2224.269,"end":2239.145,"text":"我還是沒有聽到那否則是不是就麻煩要幫他們護航的委員不管哪一黨委員來趕快把組織法修掉你修掉之後我沒話說否則今天第八條還在的時候不要抗議我在講我的法律見解"},{"start":2239.966,"end":2257.312,"text":"那如果不懂的可以麻煩翻一下官會組織法第八條的法律規定文字寫得很清楚那如果你認為他不需要來那趕快把他修法修掉我就沒意見那否則現在法律還在的情況下我們還是要麻煩這些人要遵守國家的法律不要不遵守國家的法律"},{"start":2259.46,"end":2280.322,"text":"我們現在就是想辦法聯絡一下 看看秘書長能不能來我們還是很期待他過來啦 說明清楚 因為我也很痛恨共諜啦沒有 我具體建議啦 現在打電話 請他過來他沒有過來以前啦 先休息 這個是我的建議好 那個 王委員"},{"start":2290.711,"end":2302.017,"text":"好 主席在我們的預算凍結案我們也看到包含之前總統府包含今天的報告裡面也說這個有關於凍結案可能會對總統府的一些它的運作會產生影響等等之類的"},{"start":2309.881,"end":2316.726,"text":"那國安單位國安會也是如此那面對這樣子的一個預算案其實我真的覺得包含我們總統府秘書長即便公務繁忙如果說他可以來做一下報告其實在過去好多個委員會都是這樣的就是如果首長"},{"start":2330.336,"end":2358.838,"text":"真的有公務繁忙的時候他可以來做一個報告那有的甚至沒有接受詢答因為我知道有很多首長自己覺得自己很了不起啊他不想接受立委的詢答啊那通常呢其實不管哪一個黨派的這個召委啊其實也都會大家互相尊重但是呢我覺得今天我們處理的是總統府還有國安會兩大秘書長"},{"start":2361.02,"end":2369.928,"text":"連袂缺席我覺得對立法院來說其實真的真的非常不尊重尤其在解凍案我們也沒有再分黨派的啦就說我們該幫你們解凍案我們就來安排那大家也會很認真的好來讓我們的這個相關的這個會務啊能夠做一些運作能夠正常"},{"start":2384.264,"end":2398.744,"text":"可是問題是 你連來都不來這就代表你根本認為運作沒問題嘛所以你喊的是不是都是假的呢因為你連來都不要來所以當然啦 今天那個總統府秘書長喔"},{"start":2400.373,"end":2405.556,"text":"完全的缺席那昭緯說你有準價我們尊重昭緯的權責那請問一下國安會秘書長呢這已經不是第一次這是慣犯這是慣犯不敢是在發生共諜案這麼重要的事件社會各界矚目然後現在在預算案也一樣不來我真的就不理解了"},{"start":2427.189,"end":2448.996,"text":"那麼賴總統520昨天不是還在講嗎國安非常重要嗎然後呢會跟在野黨的主席啊來報告相關的國安情勢啊今天只是來報告一下國安的相關的預算都不願意那請問一下難道今天吳釗燮是要打賴清德總統的臉嗎昨天的話是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":2452.817,"end":2479.505,"text":"是只是說說好看而已嗎所以我覺得今天喔我個人還是會強力的譴責包含總統府秘書長還有國安會秘書長通通不來不遵守相關的法律的規定不遵守立法不尊重立法院的一個預算的監督權也不尊重人民要有知的權利啊"},{"start":2480.976,"end":2500.529,"text":"所以在今天我真的覺得 我們應該趕快啦真的請兩大秘書長 有這麼繁忙嗎?官會秘書長也好 或者總統府秘書長也好來做一些報告都不願意嗎?連踏進立法院的大門都不願意嗎?立法院有這麼可怕嗎?"},{"start":2503.208,"end":2521.505,"text":"所以如果說今天秘書長都不來那像今天在座的何志偉副秘書長我跟他也是好朋友我們過去在議會大家是老同事那我也很尊重他今天那他永遠都是笑笑的然後可是問題是"},{"start":2523.386,"end":2549.507,"text":"為什麼總統府秘書長連來做個半個小時的報告都不願意呢所以在這邊也是一樣啦如果說今天我們還是願意趕快等待兩大秘書長能夠過來來做一些報告如果你們真的很重視預算的話你們真的很重視解凍案的話請你們到立法院來做一些報告好不好我也是支持剛才黃國昌委員所講的"},{"start":2551.788,"end":2575.477,"text":"今天我們是不是趕快聯絡他們 讓他們趕快過來做報告好 等一下 我這邊跟委員會報告一下等一下他完之後再換我一下我跟委員會報告 確實昨天何富密有來跟我談了那他也講出秘書長沒有辦法來的原因那我昨天有跟何富密 我給他一個建議就是說那是不是可以他來一個小時"},{"start":2576.497,"end":2603.735,"text":"一個小時你之後有要務請假離開也可以這是第一個第二個我們可以配合秘書長什麼時候有空然後我們來開會我這邊已經完全善意你看我已經跟複密報告了核複密報告第一個是不是來一個小時說明完再趕快去趕公務我們可以答應第二個是不是可以你哪一天有空什麼時段有空我們配合你開會我其實善意都試盡了所以剛剛的委員"},{"start":2606.537,"end":2622.8,"text":"那個有一些意見我想我也可以理解我這邊就是在跟委員會報告其實有這個狀況那第二個當然就是因為官會的秘書長因為我剛剛有跟各位報告說因為我自己看到的官會組織法第八條是這樣規定所以我沒有辦法"},{"start":2623.621,"end":2651.514,"text":"準價你如果說偶而來一次一兩次要請假我沒有話說但是都不來我沒有辦法理解那再來就是說因為我們今天討論是預算解凍案我也很急著幫各部會以及總統府趕快預算解凍所以我們才趕快排預算解凍案那你不能一邊跟我喊窮一邊請你來說明你又不來所以這就是我們一直很希望MU長你至少來一個小時讓大家能夠跟你溝通那再來最後我是覺得是這樣我覺得一直講"},{"start":2653.174,"end":2674.06,"text":"國家安全很重要要趕快修國安實法一直說這樣不修就是要害慘害慘台灣的情況下那你們來說明一下這些國安的問題共諜的問題以及經費的使用問題那不是要趕快嗎所以這是我的立場我是希望大家能夠趕快來那我也麻煩待會祕書長兩位副祕書長能夠聯繫一下能夠麻煩他們過來"},{"start":2678.842,"end":2686.286,"text":"時間長短 我覺得至少你表現一下你能有過來那我們現在請那個羅志強委員 謝謝那吳委員就麻煩下一位"},{"start":2697.543,"end":2720.326,"text":"主席還有我們總統府跟國安會的列席的副秘書長還有我們在場的委員我在這邊還是想幫賴清德總統講句話你別的時間其實就算了我們雖然不滿意歸不滿意但今天我是幫賴清德總統表達我的不滿意為什麼呢"},{"start":2721.943,"end":2739.91,"text":"昨天520耶我想我們總統府的官員跟官會的官員你們到底有沒有在看總統的週年的演說呢有沒有看呢它上面主軸是什麼啊不就是團結跟對話嗎連總統他都要遞橄欖枝來邀請在野黨主席來進行對話了"},{"start":2753.334,"end":2780.691,"text":"結果才一天今天兩大秘書長你們就直接打臉總統的對話的誠意嗎我覺得這樣是非常對不起賴清德總統的啊你就挑戰520後他才講要對話結果你們就預算解凍案明明是你們的主管管該有的權限的說明的責任跟義務"},{"start":2782.489,"end":2809.346,"text":"然後你就雙雙缺席第一個我要講總統府的預算跟國安會的預算能夠決定的最終決定者就是首長就是總統府的秘書長這點我想志偉兄也很清楚就是國安會的秘書長所以今天針對自己部門的預算自己機關的預算"},{"start":2811.32,"end":2831.36,"text":"首長是有義務要來捍衛他的預算來說明他的預算這也是一個憲政上的義務我還不講賴清德總統已經揭示希望朝野可以對話就算沒有這對話昨天的對話演說今天"},{"start":2832.503,"end":2861.703,"text":"按照你自己 我們的機關對於自己的預算的一個所謂的一個捍衛的責任 說明的責任兩個機關首長也應該要過來啦這第二點第三點我要講什麼我也看到你們的這個總統府跟國安會的解凍報告啊裡面講的真是十萬火急耶很多的預算不解凍 政務無法推動很多預算要趕快解凍"},{"start":2863.339,"end":2887.53,"text":"但是我覺得今天我的感覺是不需要啊不要不要緊啊你自己首長你都不重視的時候就反而是我們立法院非常有誠意我們吳宗憲召委排了解凍案來趕快希望能夠幫我們的行政部門來去把預算怎麼樣讓你們可以解凍可以來繼續使用"},{"start":2889.264,"end":2915.316,"text":"如果說立法院今天司法法治委員會召委有這樣誠意的話我覺得真的兩位秘書長能不能拜託聯絡一下你至少來這邊一下然後呢說明一下現在總統府跟國安會的預算那就可以讓你們報告裡面講這麼嚴肅嚴峻這麼急迫急切的預算可以進到解凍的流程啊"},{"start":2916.926,"end":2929.111,"text":"所以這三點 第一個請尊重賴清德總統520演說裡面要對話的這樣的一個主張不要打臉賴清德總統第二個 機關首長預算的最終決定權"},{"start":2936.499,"end":2942.848,"text":"是機關首長在總統府就是總統府秘書長在國安會就是國安會秘書長機關首長有義務來立法院針對解凍事項進行報告這是義務"},{"start":2949.673,"end":2971.382,"text":"第三個這也是展現出今天照你們所說的機關非常迫切的需要這個預算的解凍但你們不能展現的是一個相反的行為嘛一方面說預算解凍多重要另外一方面你的機關首長覺得不重要連來都不肯來"},{"start":2972.982,"end":2995.456,"text":"所以也要拜託兩位副秘書長能夠聯絡一下 轉達一下那我也支持黃國昌委員的主張那機關首長來之前我們就先休息我們可以等他沒關係今天我們就在立法院等 等機關首長那請機關首長來 否則我們就先休息等到他來我們再繼續進行今天的解讀報告 以上"},{"start":2996.684,"end":3009.161,"text":"好 謝謝 我也十足的誠意以及努力希望趕快幫機關解凍我真的很希望趕快幫各機關都解凍所以也希望各機關能夠回應我們一點善意好 那我們下一位請吳志堯委員"},{"start":3019.818,"end":3036.571,"text":"謝謝主席那今天是要處理總統府跟國安會的預算的解凍案那當然我覺得尊重在野黨委員他們的一些看法當然立委是有監督的職責只是到底要說清楚講明白喔"},{"start":3037.572,"end":3065.924,"text":"如果說在野黨的委員是真的這麼關心國安的話這麼關心共諜的話那為什麼當民進黨的司法法治委員會的召委莊瑞雄就以同樣的共諜案的主題邀請立法院的周萬來秘書長來列席立法院如何防止共諜滲透安排了四次會議周萬來一次都沒來也沒有請假"},{"start":3067.017,"end":3093.531,"text":"所以說不要雙標所以如果真的在乎共諜滲透的議題為什麼在立法院就可以縱容立法院可以成為共諜滲透的破口嗎當然不行但是在要求我們監督立法院自我克責國會自律的時候在野黨藍白的委員是護航包庇周恩來可以不來列席還不請假"},{"start":3094.691,"end":3115.293,"text":"對於委員會的藐視絕對是比藐視國會更藐視國會這個是周恩來創下來的惡例第二個如果在野黨的委員這麼的在乎國安議題的話就在昨天程序委員會民進黨委員所提的國安法案被你們擋了第407次"},{"start":3118.028,"end":3131.74,"text":"連程序委員會排案都沒有辦法排國安法案就立委附中登載的這件事情被你們擋了407次藍白的委員真的關心國安嗎剛剛"},{"start":3134.673,"end":3161.355,"text":"有委員說到國安實法很重要是的你們終於想起國安實法很重要了到目前為止提案審查國安實法的多數都是民進黨的立委呀一個月前在內政委員會審查國安法的時候九個版本都是民進黨委員提案的呀反滲透法都是民進黨委員提案的呀"},{"start":3162.475,"end":3187.443,"text":"在野黨的委員這麼關心國安那真的拜託說到做到未來我們在審議任何國安實法的內容都可以理性正向的討論這才是真正的關心國安那回到今天委員會要凍結預算我想用過去的一些數字來做說明過去立法院不論誰當家"},{"start":3191.055,"end":3212.709,"text":"藍綠誰當家或者是中央執政總統是藍是綠確實在立法院都曾經發生過總統府秘書長或是國安會秘書長因為另有要工而必須請假立法院的委員會這確實不論誰執政都發生過但我用數字來說話"},{"start":3214.75,"end":3240.092,"text":"第五届的時候邀請國安會秘書長30次他缺席了12次第六届邀請國安會秘書長出席16次會議他缺席了7次會議第七届的時候八次邀請國安會秘書長他缺席兩次第八届的時候邀了13次缺席10次這是過去"},{"start":3241.584,"end":3266.474,"text":"秘書長們循程序來請假立法院過去也都有准假的例子如果以解凍案我再一次用具體的例子這都是議事登載可以查的馬英九執政的時候2010年5月31號第七屆第五會期國安會的預算解凍是由葛光月副秘書長來出席"},{"start":3268.396,"end":3288.876,"text":"準價了而且如值如期的解凍了馬英九任內一樣是第七屆2010年的10月對不起2010年第七會期一樣是葛光月副秘書長出席解凍會議也順利解凍了主席準價了"},{"start":3290.277,"end":3304.507,"text":"在馬英九執政2013年10月30號第八屆第四次會議的時候也是處理國安會預算解凍當時出席代表是陸副秘書長一樣順利解凍了 主席准假了"},{"start":3311.11,"end":3327.841,"text":"這都是議事錄的登載過去馬英九當總統的時候國安會作為總統的幕僚機關國安會的預算解凍當然重要啊馬英九前總統當時應當也很重視國安會的每一筆預算的致用因為都關乎國安啊"},{"start":3328.661,"end":3342.963,"text":"可是呢在解凍案的時候這三次會議出席代表都是國安會的副秘書長南道藍白的委員剛剛羅志強當時應當就是馬英九的幕僚就在總統府啊"},{"start":3344.202,"end":3362.011,"text":"那個時候難道派副秘書長來處理解凍案就代表國安會不在乎預算嗎馬英九前總統不在乎預算嗎不是這樣嘛所以我用具體的例子過去國安會秘書長來立法院受邀跟請假"},{"start":3363.243,"end":3380.682,"text":"的次數不論誰執政立法院不論誰當家循程序請假都有被准假而就扣和今天的解凍案馬英九前總統執政的時候我剛舉了三次會議都是處理國安會解凍案都是由副秘書長當時有被這樣"},{"start":3386.035,"end":3411.678,"text":"批評的一文不值批評的國安會不在乎預算嗎我覺得不要兩套的標準不要用這種政治的操作今天國安會的預算有三筆要解凍如果我沒有資料沒有解讀錯誤的話一個是諮詢研究業務一百萬一個是諮詢研究業務兩百萬另外一個呢是針對"},{"start":3414.572,"end":3426.639,"text":"徵務人員待遇十萬元就人事費的部分的解凍應當就是特別費之類的這三筆的數額大家我是希望能夠循程序好好來理性討論解凍案"},{"start":3428.547,"end":3451.6,"text":"那我也要我剛剛特別請示了一下我請教了一下謝謝主席昨天有接見我們總統府的副秘書長何志偉他昨天去特別跟您報告今天潘秘書長另有要工然後由他來代理預算的解凍然後您轉嫁了其實總統府預算被凍結的數額是國安會的N倍被凍結了應該是2.14億吧國安會就是這個幾百萬"},{"start":3458.024,"end":3469.03,"text":"可是這個2.14億的解凍預算呢我們的吳釗燮召委是同意給潘孟安秘書長請假然後由志偉、傅密來代理2.14億的解凍預算但國安會的幾百萬的解凍預算呢"},{"start":3473.192,"end":3490.373,"text":"就我知道的昨天我們的徐副秘書長昨天下午三點鐘左右也前往了吳宗憲召委的辦公室親自就跟志偉副秘一樣親自跟召委報告說明今天吳兆憲秘書長之所以要請假的理由"},{"start":3491.434,"end":3507.896,"text":"但是呢我們的吳昭偉昨天仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我們的徐副秘書長換言之徐副秘書長沒有這麼lucky沒有像志偉秘書長一樣可以見到吳昭偉然後可以順利成功的請假"},{"start":3508.837,"end":3529.866,"text":"所以昨天呢國安會是很重視的就跟今天總統府的秘書長一樣昨天都親自到吳釗偉的辦公室去口頭說明希望能夠准假但是釗偉准了總統府秘書長的假也見了何富密非常謝謝可是我們的吳釗偉沒有見國安會的副秘書長讓他在那裡等"},{"start":3534.264,"end":3562.429,"text":"那徐富密等不到吳釗偉吳釗偉仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我不知道什麼理由不曉得在忙什麼所以造成請假不順利他們一樣非常尊重釗偉可是釗偉對於兩個秘書長的請假的處理顯然也有一些不同的考量2.14億總統府的預算被凍結是史上新高但是釗偉同意用富密來代理解凍"},{"start":3563.7,"end":3573.058,"text":"不代表交委就認為總統府的預算比較隨便不重要覆密來就好我相信交委一定都同樣的嚴謹的審視可是就"},{"start":3576.278,"end":3603.806,"text":"請假徵詢親自到您辦公室報告要請假這個事情我也不知道張偉為什麼有兩種做法所以說國安會秘書長也好總統府秘書長也好包括我們執政黨我們對於預算都非常的在乎對於總統府的預算前所未有的刪減數跟凍結數我們都希望總統府只剩下九千萬可以用了只剩下九千萬可以用了"},{"start":3605.037,"end":3632.49,"text":"事事那就讓總統府的預算我們可以來處理但是我還是請主席喔當然我們尊重大家的意見 要不然人家是要你請假你不給人家記名不給人家聽人家的解說不給人家請假會合理理由過去不要人家叫總統的時候解凍案三屆都是副秘書長就來啊我很想問 劉志強現在沒在了啊我很想問問 劉志強啊過去是你的前老闆 你就在總統府欸"},{"start":3633.891,"end":3647.171,"text":"你們那時候也是赴秘書上來做解凍啊不要雙標啦那在乎預算就趕快來審查預算我認為這才是真正的在乎在乎預算我們就"},{"start":3648.348,"end":3665.23,"text":"循程序來尋答如果我們的徐富密招架不住在野黨委員的垂尋他對於國安事務的涉獵沒有達到在野黨委員的要求你們要對解凍案做什麼處置我們是少數黨我們只能尊重啊"},{"start":3665.891,"end":3681.539,"text":"可是徐富密在國安領域的服務他的專業我相信上職巡台 職求對決就預算論預算 就國安論國安這才是合理 公平然後我也希望司法法制委員會能夠來進行下面的議程"},{"start":3685.929,"end":3702.555,"text":"謝謝吳委員 那我這邊跟委員會還有吳委員還有徐副秘報告我不是對兩位副秘書長不同的對待模式因為何副秘書長在前一天就打電話跟我約時間但徐副秘書長沒有跟我約時間"},{"start":3705.933,"end":3734.648,"text":"我想許副秘書長在這邊我們可以實話實說他沒有給我約時間所以吳少偉委員這就是原因那第二個原因是賴總統蕭副總統他身邊沒有人涉犯共諜案但是我們的吳秘書長他身邊有人涉犯共諜案所以這也是為什麼兩邊我們看法會不一樣的地方我今天不會把賴總統跟蕭副總統我就對他不尊敬或是硬要"},{"start":3736.069,"end":3762.722,"text":"總統府秘書長一定要怎麼樣所以這就是不一樣啊我想國任也可以接受吧因為我們從來沒有聽說過賴總統跟蕭副總統身邊有問題啊所以我對他們兩位我從來不認為他們兩位需要為共諜案或我們擔心的國家安全說明啊但是吳釗燮秘書長有這個疑慮國任也有疑慮的時候那難道我不該請他來稍微說明以上就是我並不是雙標在對待我在這邊說明清楚"},{"start":3764.005,"end":3791.984,"text":"好那謝謝主席的說明啦雖然我覺得人都已經在您辦公室了您也在裡頭不見這個實在是有一點沒關係好不講這個事情尊重您尊重您好好好尊重您尊重您那以後請約好我不知道有沒有約那今天因為現在是這樣啦我們很在乎預算我們當然希望能夠進行那在場我跟逸川兩位委員我們是希望逸川能夠繼續進行那尊重張偉啦因為在場現在就是黃國昌委員一位嘛"},{"start":3792.83,"end":3820.323,"text":"那要不要繼續進行我們現在想好就是因為我剛有聽其他委員的做法我在這邊先跟各位報告如果今天我不重視預算結東岸我們也很重視謝謝我們也很重視我就不會急著排更何況其實何富密找過很多次沒有啦主席我們把規則講清楚好不好是你講話我們大家都可以按著麥克風講話是不是你非常尊重你的議事主席喔我非常尊重你的議事主席喔現在是我的發言時間才對耶"},{"start":3821.724,"end":3827.931,"text":"只要有我即時會不會信任你同意就不差略什麼這樣好啦 都安靜你三個時間已經快到了你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間"},{"start":3837.562,"end":3845.852,"text":"他現在是在回答我的問題他現在是在回答我的問題這是我發言的時間麻煩兩位秘書長幫我們聯繫秘書長隨時秘書長有空我們都可以馬上開會好 我們現在休息 謝謝"},{"start":21761.342,"end":21765.588,"text":"好那我們繼續開會先進行機關報告發言時間五分鐘我們先請總統府副秘書長何志偉副秘書長報告"},{"start":21780.606,"end":21802.64,"text":"謝謝主席召委跟現場的委員還有現場的同仁首先感謝貴委員會今天召開會議審查總統府114年度預算的解凍案承蒙各位委員長期以來對總統府的支持與指教在此致上最高最高的敬意那貴院審查總統府114年度預算"},{"start":21803.28,"end":21822.194,"text":"目前所凍結的這個決議共六項目總統府均依照決議於114年4月25日將報告函送給貴院有關該凍結的凍結案呢所提示向總統府辦理情形請各位委員參閱這個報告資料之說明"},{"start":21825.716,"end":21848.218,"text":"總統府一四年度稅出的預算案編列了十一億兩千三百零二萬三千元經貴院審議這個刪減掉五千五百三十七萬六千元法定預算為十億六千七百六十四萬七千元凍結兩億兩千一百零八萬三千元"},{"start":21849.96,"end":21859.345,"text":"114年度山洞預算高度的集中在業務費這高達了2億6千萬餘元的這個山洞數創下了15年來的新高那這個也超過15年來的總和的3.58倍14年度山洞後業務費可支用"},{"start":21872.392,"end":21888.438,"text":"僅剩下九千一百七十六萬四千元僅為原編列數的百分之二十六目前完全不足指引我們總統府基本運作所經費那在兩週後跟大家報告"},{"start":21889.898,"end":21905.347,"text":"臺灣我們中華民國的總統府將無法負擔水電費了甚至總統府的維安會受到多重的嚴重衝擊我們總統府的市衛警的三餐呢也無法供應我們的阿兵哥兄弟姊妹們"},{"start":21906.147,"end":21921.341,"text":"可能會餓的柱子來執勤在這樣的酷暑下我很擔心我們很擔心那另外我們國內外重要的賓客元首前元首來到總統府我們沒有辦法正常的迎接"},{"start":21922.302,"end":21950.331,"text":"這可能會重創我們中華民國台灣的國際形象此外跟各位委員還有貴院報告很感謝你們專業的問政不斷的提醒提醒資安及國安總統府的資訊服務費與資訊設備費共計凍結了一千萬元那總統府每年遭受駭客攻擊已經超過八千萬次形勢有點辛苦"},{"start":21950.951,"end":21958.459,"text":"所以在這邊再次拜託那總統府為總統依據憲法行使職權之幕僚機關承認辦理總統行使職權有關事項依據尊潔經時原則編列一四年度預算以支應各項業務運作基本需求經費"},{"start":21971.272,"end":21991.188,"text":"一四年度預算凍結數 建請貴院同意解凍凍資以利總統府各項業務順利推展整體國政順利推動 為更好的中華民國台灣一起攜手努力以上報告 敬請各位委員支持指教 拜託謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請國安會副秘書長報告"},{"start":22007.85,"end":22036.795,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先感謝各位委員長期以來對本會議的支持與指教貴院審查本會議一四年度預算最初部分通過決議預算凍結案及四案本會議一決議於一四年四月二十五日將相關報告函送貴院以下緊究凍結項目及本會議辦理情形提出重點報告進行指教一"},{"start":22040.677,"end":22053.625,"text":"凍結業務費30%並提出預算執行情形之專案報告經同意後 使得用之感謝國運支持本會議單位預算近3年從2013年至2011年至2013年之業務費每年度編列約4000餘萬元執行率均達96%以上"},{"start":22062.872,"end":22068.061,"text":"執行情況良好各項年度計劃系配合相關部會與機關政策與預算審慎規劃辦理"},{"start":22073.069,"end":22093.496,"text":"本會議一四年度主要工作重點包括辦理基本行政運作所需之水電輸入資訊等業務定期及不定期國家安全各項會議之召開及議事之處理與辦理國防外交兩岸全社會防衛任性自動安全等"},{"start":22094.701,"end":22099.664,"text":"諮詢研究業務14年度業務費預算編列4339萬8千元截至4月底累計支出數1334萬2千元各項工作計劃均依照進度辦理二凍結諮詢業務費"},{"start":22117.789,"end":22137.765,"text":"諮詢研究業務費100萬元,於三個月內提出專案報告並經同意後,使得動之。針對本項決議所列之預算,主要系為辦理外交、國防、兩岸經貿及自通安全等議題,所需派員赴國內外重要安全機構及國內外智庫參與研討、訪談、邀訪外賓及短程車子等必要經費。"},{"start":22143.51,"end":22162.364,"text":"各項明細已如列於報告中請委員參閱三令諮詢研究業務費凍結兩百萬元提書面報告經同意後使得凍支與凍結一般行政政務人員待遇十萬元提書面報告後使得凍支等案"},{"start":22163.581,"end":22186.266,"text":"本會議也針對本會議與所屬國安局之憲政定位及其執掌與總統成立氣候變遷等三委員會與本會議的角色功能並無干擱之處以及諮詢委員人士費系依據國安會組織法及配合總統用人核實編列與書面報告亦有詳細說明"},{"start":22189.828,"end":22208.1,"text":"4.為因應全球政經變化,2014年度本會議仍持續掌握國際局勢及區安全及即時變化,擬定應處方案。國外增進與由我國家實質互動,對國內提升全社會防衛韌性,以確保國家整體安全。"},{"start":22208.9,"end":22225.337,"text":"本會議一四年度預算均按業務需求及本遵節原則核實編列及審慎執行為利業務順利推動懇請同意解除預算凍結以上報告敬請各位委員指教與支持謝謝"},{"start":22230.364,"end":22254.714,"text":"機關代表報告完畢 相關書面報告請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始進行詢答 詢答後就接著處理預算解凍案本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘 非本會委員詢答時間4分鐘不再延長下午4點截止發言登記那我們現在先請翁曉琳委員代理主席"},{"start":22269.468,"end":22285.795,"text":"好 現在請吳宗憲委員質詢是 我們麻煩兩位複密好 那首先我先謝謝"},{"start":22288.154,"end":22313.327,"text":"何富密至少在前一天還有跟我提到說要來要討論這個秘書長沒辦法到的事情那至於國安會的秘書長就是也都不來我也不是我覺得這不是一個處理事情的方式更何況我早上其實有在講組織法第8條寫得很清楚國安會就是要向立法院負責"},{"start":22316.616,"end":22335.553,"text":"秘書長總是不來而且不來也都不聯絡那我要跟大家報告一下到現在此刻為止其實兩位秘書長也都沒有一通電話過來過那我想說預算這個東西啊民進黨以及很多親鳥已經拿這個東西已經大做文章半年了"},{"start":22336.374,"end":22356.795,"text":"中間更有非常多造謠 後來被打臉澄清的事情那已經玩了半年的東西然後之前我們又遇到坊間的傳說以及公務體系內的傳說說左宗泰要求大家不要把解凍案送來送到立法院那後來突然間又叫大家把解凍案送來"},{"start":22357.896,"end":22380.43,"text":"那今天總統府的解凍案送過來其實我也是很善意的趕快排進來我們希望幫大家解凍因為我知道總統府的預算裡面還有包括更多跟總統府有關的譬如說憲兵的一些費用的支出或一些必要的水電支出所以我很誠意的希望趕快排進來來幫大家解決這個問題結果我們排了以後"},{"start":22385.647,"end":22391.26,"text":"總府秘書長也不願意來然後國安會的秘書長也不願意來那我也是"},{"start":22392.128,"end":22414.675,"text":"很誠意的跟兩位副秘書長在早上也報告了而且我其實昨天就有講了啦就說那你今天如果真的有藥物不能來那是不是可以來一個小時就好比如說九點開始然後你十點開始請假那你至少來一個小時有些委員需要問問題的可以問得到那也不行啊然後再來就是說"},{"start":22415.905,"end":22431.318,"text":"那我說好 那療癒秘書長何時有空我們會議可以專門為你排你有空的時候麻煩你來 也不來那這個就不是你因公無法道了我想這個就是不會送來就對了啦就看你不好不會送來啦"},{"start":22431.818,"end":22458.813,"text":"我覺得就是這樣那至少我剛剛為什麼說感謝何副秘書長這何副秘書長還有那個嫌秘書長的意思還先來我們好好的溝通了一下那吳釗燮秘書長是連甩都不甩我們那如果對於說預算解凍這個事情這個是你們要用的預算然後我們這麼誠意的幫你排了然後你還是愛來不來我覺得"},{"start":22460.157,"end":22481.654,"text":"這做法就不對 那我剛剛所論述的每一件事實都是這兩天發生的事實那我也只能說 立法院 市長法治委員會已經用盡了所有的善意 希望好好的處理預算但是我們面對的是 他就是不甩你 然後對外就說我的錢都被卡死 我無法施政 藍白爛三 爛凍結預算"},{"start":22483.82,"end":22511.349,"text":"那我希望全國人民看清楚這些嘴臉你連來都不來我告訴你法條的依據你應該到立法院來要該來負責你給我回一句說憲政慣例我不用來那你憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條慣例你請你告訴我你到今天也都還不告訴我那這樣以後我面對民意代表我的邏輯就是憲政慣例啊我為什麼甩你所以原來當官是這樣在當的"},{"start":22514.704,"end":22534.269,"text":"我希望說全民看清楚吧我想請教一下何副秘書長因為總統有提到說要來提一個國安情勢的簡報那請問一下這個到底他又說 他在昨天也有提到說希望政黨合作"},{"start":22534.989,"end":22554.905,"text":"那我們當然第一個講到矛盾的點是 你一邊說要政黨合作 另外一方面你又在那邊支持大罷免然後一直在歡呼這件事情 那我想請教你一下那既然他說要政黨合作 那又提了一個國安情勢報告那請問一下 他要的這個國安情勢報告的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":22555.7,"end":22578.829,"text":"我想跟委員報告現在所有的幕僚作業正在進行當中因為是昨天才正式的對外公布那因為我想各位委員都很專業也許大家針對他想要看到的報告或是哪個方面我們這邊都可以互相的溝通並且後續可以再讓幕僚作業來製作來產出那是抱歉是"},{"start":22579.289,"end":22594.266,"text":"沒有啦 因為我想 就是 好吧 那現在是幕僚還在處理啦但是我想要提的一個就是我雖然說到政壇才一年多 但我覺得政治的真諦是在於溝通跟協調我想這個大家都不會否認 而不是說造謠跟抹紅"},{"start":22595.347,"end":22618.004,"text":"但這段時間我看到的就是講不贏你 法治上講不贏你 就給你扣紅帽子就扣你說你是中共同路人或什麼 這種東西這段時間我們每天都在遇到那我也只能就是說 跟複密報告一個點就是其實總統身為民進黨黨主席 他也是國家的總統那他有權利去任命這些行政院院長 還有大法官 所以"},{"start":22619.125,"end":22645.703,"text":"我至少到目前為止我只有聽到總統說他希望在執政跟在野大家好好的團結合作和諧的來從事國政可是並沒有看到一個實際的作為那我看到的只是司法上面的一些雙標以及施政上面的一些雙標甚至就我剛剛講到的他一方面說你刪我預算你爛凍結我預算但是我們排了解凍案結果秘書長又不來"},{"start":22646.604,"end":22663.523,"text":"然後我們卑微的 不要說卑微啦我沒有講說 我說配合你的時間你什麼時間有空 我什麼時間都可以為你而開晚上12點也可以 但是他還是不來我說真的 我當召委 我今天訂的這個議程我連一通電話我都沒接到這兩位偉大的秘書長"},{"start":22665.236,"end":22691.906,"text":"我們今天好歹我是民意代表但我連一通兩位的電話我都沒有接到今天早上麻煩複密然後跟秘書長聯繫但我到現在我什麼資訊都沒有就空等了那麼久但是我們今天是在為兩位所帶領的機關在想辦法幫你解凍要拿預算給你用結果你卻這樣子處理這個是我沒有辦法理解的地方啦當然我也覺得"},{"start":22693.274,"end":22722.355,"text":"秘書長爛這東西不能讓基層的這些憲兵等等的這些人來吃苦或是讓總統府的公務員吃苦我們不捨得讓這些基層因為長官的爛而必須要吃苦所以很多時候我們不得不去救一些預算部分我們只能說很多苦我們就吞下來你今天不學我們我們就吞下來但我沒有辦法說讓那些士官兵在那裡然後連飯都沒得吃"},{"start":22723.427,"end":22751.448,"text":"然後冷氣沒得開然後像那個何富密跟我說他熱到都要中暑其實我都捨不得 捨不得何富密受這樣的苦但我也是很不屑不恥秘書長們做這種事情就因為他不屑民意機關這就是賴總統 賴政府執政之下帶領的這些高官們就是看不起 不屑民意機關我們還叫做民主國家嗎這是我自己心中的一個感觸啦"},{"start":22756.347,"end":22777.027,"text":"我覺得之前賴總統有提到的那個賴17點以及我們這次他所希望做到的這個國安情勢簡報我們還是希望一件事情因為共諜案發生了這麼久我們還是搞不太清楚整個方向那但是這個東西"},{"start":22778.496,"end":22801.468,"text":"我們國家安全受到危害的時候其實不管每個人民或是立委們都很擔心這個事情所以我還是一個具體的建議啦我希望說檢報的內容能夠跟我們說明幾個點就是我希望第一個跟我們說明到底是發生了什麼事情還有什麼時候開始的那第二個就是說到底是這些"},{"start":22802.468,"end":22819.606,"text":"敵對的勢力是誰 機敏資料持有人 金手人 這個怎麼查核還有滲透的原因還有為什麼選擇這些人下手我想這個在我簡報上面都有還有最後你要怎麼解決這個問題尤其怎麼解決才是最重要因為我們不能容認國家在被"},{"start":22821.407,"end":22849.173,"text":"某些勢力不管是來自於境外或境內的人他去滲透國家的安全去破壞國家的安全我想說這幾個東西要麻煩你們在將來的那個簡報裡面能夠都把這個東西能夠提起來能夠讓我們理解一下更何況這些共諜其實我們發現他們都還有在繳民進黨的黨費他其實就還是民進黨的黨員是發生事情之後才被開除的所以"},{"start":22849.833,"end":22876.463,"text":"我覺得 當然我可以理解一個點啦就像上市櫃公司一樣大家要去查你的商業機密他當然要從那些技術人員那邊去滲透他不會去滲透外面的散戶所以這些人很大量的存在執政黨或者是執政黨的輔會黨團等等或是中央機關 這個我可以理解這個是邏輯上是合邏輯的所以 但是呢 你應該還是要找出一個方法去解決啊"},{"start":22877.796,"end":22885.788,"text":"這還是要找一個方法去解決而不能放任這些人就繼續在裡面去侵害我們這個國家所以我想總統他真正要交代的"},{"start":22887.35,"end":22914.241,"text":"這共諜到底是怎麼樣這些人怎麼養成的而不是跟我們說我去搞了一個急難救助金就可以因為我覺得狀況不會是這麼low不會是他欠幾個錢他就會出賣靈魂給某些敵人我想不是這樣好 如果這個人可以用錢來打動的話你的敵人永遠可以出比你更高的價碼去鎖定那幾個特定人所以絕對不是立了一個什麼急難救助金就可以解決問題"},{"start":22915.621,"end":22942.734,"text":"我不相信是這樣啦我相信如果你們認為的敵人是中國大陸的話以民進黨現在認定的敵人是中國大陸中國大陸絕對有辦法出更高的價碼去買通其他人所以這不是解決問題的方式請大家能夠真的找出問題來解決如果你是有心解決如果你不是把國家安全只是當作政治籌碼在那邊做政治攻擊的話如果你真心要解決國家安全受侵害的問題"},{"start":22943.655,"end":22958.492,"text":"請拿出正確的方式來做然後機要人員的查核是不是可以告訴我們過去問題出在哪裡那將來你怎麼改正因為這次有發生機要人員的問題然後發生長期都沒有被安全查核嘛"},{"start":22958.812,"end":22975.672,"text":"那這到底是包出在哪裡那有沒有需要立法院協助修法這也是麻煩你們能夠告訴我們一下否則啊 區區幾千塊美金幾萬塊你就把國家安全都出賣了那我們也希望喔政府在查緝共諜的時候能夠向查辦國民黨"},{"start":22977.094,"end":22999.766,"text":"涉犯的幽靈連署一樣到處大搜索大約談然後到處申請羈押我希望辦共諜能有像辦國民黨的這樣的決心跟這樣的力道哪怕是二分之一的力道也可以啦好好的辦共諜啦真正在讓這個國家陷於危險的是這些共諜啦真正是這些人啦而不是"},{"start":23000.646,"end":23030.096,"text":"我跟你講啦 違照文書我從以前到現在我都說是違法的我從來沒有說過它合法但它跟國家安全比起來共諜這麼嚴重你為什麼不好好的辦所以我還是希望國家能夠重視我們國家安全出了問題這件事情而不要在那邊講一些風涼話叫做沒有被滲透的才是真正有問題這種話都出來好那再麻煩那個何富密這邊能夠協助然後另外"},{"start":23031.977,"end":23052.406,"text":"呃 國安會這邊齁真的要麻煩您跟吳秘書長提醒一下請他去看一下國安會的組織法不然請他找他友好的立委把國安會組織法第八條修掉如果第八條沒有修掉的時候請依法行政麻煩你們請依法行政好 謝謝各位兩位辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":23062.199,"end":23086.097,"text":"下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請國安會和副秘書長麻煩副秘書長好副秘書長好以後你們這個秘書長沒要來"},{"start":23091.121,"end":23118.094,"text":"要提早跟我們趙薇說,因為這個上禮拜,就拜的會啦你們就昨天才去,這樣沒有什麼誠意啦上禮拜你們應該就接到通知了嘛我們上禮拜我們就都知道啦展現一下誠意,因為你們去用凍結也沒有多少錢就不夠這樣可以又沒有開到會你像我們這個立法院的秘書長,那走亂來"},{"start":23120.151,"end":23144.584,"text":"他是就叫他們投機韓國的,寫一張配來,說我們不去這是他叫他們投機寫,你們不用,你們就下次排會的時候啊按照慣例該怎麼做就怎麼做,好不好針對這個解凍案啊,裡面有一個第四個案子啊這個凍結一般行政人士會政務人員待遇十萬元這到底是什麼東西呢凍結十萬元,這個會解釋一下"},{"start":23153.983,"end":23172.214,"text":"這個應該原來是翁委員的案子那主要是翁委員那個時候對本會那個不是啊 我現在是說為什麼是十萬元啦"},{"start":23175.596,"end":23194.175,"text":"這個我們當時後來決定就是用10萬元本來好像沒有要動後來又動動10萬元但我們也就是按照這個數目來辦理當天有沒有另外的同仁在的可不可以解釋一下當時這10萬是百分比還是怎樣"},{"start":23199.829,"end":23211.019,"text":"因為你們的解釋是六個人變七個人 國安諮詢委員嘛然後怎麼會比例 是比例造成十萬元是不是他好像不是因為人數變動啊 是有沒有同仁可以把當時的情境講一下"},{"start":23217.577,"end":23234.81,"text":"委員好我是人事主任陳佩婷跟您報告就是當時我們在編列諮詢委員的人數預算的時候是從6人變成7人對那是符合我們組織法上面的規定那因為當時增加多一位那就是翁委員還有"},{"start":23236.351,"end":23251.503,"text":"當時在場的幾位委員對於說為什麼多編列一位諮詢委員這樣子有一些顧慮所以希望我們就為什麼多編列的部分講清楚所以才會有一個十萬塊的預算保留喔 就一數一數就對了不是說給十萬就對了"},{"start":23255.149,"end":23283.341,"text":"就是說原來六個為什麼變七個那法定就是可以提七個當時就是總統只有提六個今年度要變七個所以變了七個的預算那一戶而已好 這個第一個這看起來沒有什麼問題啦那第二個案子啊第二個案子有一個諮詢業務費用一百萬元那三個月提出專案報告並經同意後取得動資"},{"start":23285.492,"end":23309.193,"text":"那這個當時的決議是要提一個專案報告那你們的回答是說這個報告是幕僚作業寫完的報告是給總統決策參考具有一些機敏性時不宜對外公布按照這些相關的法令你們就不宜公開這樣要怎麼解凍"},{"start":23313.373,"end":23337.196,"text":"那個我們大概是把我們出國的哪些國別那個會議的次數跟人數有在報告裡面爐列就是簡單講就是說我們用這個錢並沒有亂用基本上還是主要是出國去開會好那我請教一下你們這些出國的這些費用按照國家別因為一定有預定的國家才編得出這些數字嗎"},{"start":23338.337,"end":23360.051,"text":"因為不同的城市有不同的生活費嘛然後有不同的這個交通差旅的費用嘛這是國家規定的好那這一個就是你們現在認定你們就是交出這一些就叫專案報告了是不是包委員說實話我們出國的專案報告通常都是上一個簽給總統"},{"start":23362.577,"end":23378.995,"text":"那因為我們是憲政上面來講總統諮詢機關我們不是行政機關所以我們那個報告就不變公開所以就是說實際上什麼時候到什麼地方去開一個什麼樣的會"},{"start":23381.347,"end":23385.652,"text":"這個在這個定義裡頭不會是公開資訊不是不是公開資訊所以當時這個委員會要求這個凍結這一個相關的費用然後要請你們提專案報告並經同意這個專案報告的定義啊"},{"start":23399.266,"end":23427.313,"text":"你們今天就把它定義你們今天已經算題專案報告了對不對是就是大致那個報告裡面OK 好就是你們這裡頭寫的是多少人次然後這個參加幾場的會議是然後總共累積是幾天嘛是這就是你們定義的專案報告還有區域還有區域對還有區域那至於那個區域是什麼國家什麼樣的場合你們也就沒辦法講就沒辦法講好"},{"start":23428.627,"end":23432.17,"text":"我先請副秘書長總統府副秘書長"},{"start":23457.621,"end":23485.636,"text":"今天我們要處理國安會嗎有 國安會也有在今天同時處理國安會啊就是看大家覺得對 進行詢答OK好那請總統府好了黃衛委員好好 今天我們副秘書長展現了那個人盯人的做法但是我必須要講"},{"start":23487.438,"end":23511.656,"text":"還是要譴責一下 我們兩大秘書長都不來立法院顯然是不重視不重視整個的立法院 也不重視預算我必須講 我們一直在講說要強化國家任性 國家任性但是呢 我們現在整個的總統 總統府乃至於國安會很任性啊是很任性的 想來就來 想不來就不來"},{"start":23513.496,"end":23540.667,"text":"不但是今天立法院的預算凍結我想在上個星期5月17號舉行的雙北市壯運其實最近的成績看到有很多百歲的人類還可以有好的成績八十幾歲也有好的成績激勵了非常非常多的長者很多年輕人看了也都非常感動"},{"start":23541.921,"end":23569.534,"text":"結果5月17號 我想請問一下台北市早在2月25號 就主辦單位2月25號 就來邀請總統我想佛明爽應該知道可是呢 我們總統府一直到5月15號才告知說 總統國事繁忙不出席好 你繁忙不出席 所以其實整個的維安也因此而降級了"},{"start":23570.214,"end":23572.256,"text":"沒有想到5月16號早上8點主辦單位公布黃仁勳先生擔任整個的聖火就是其中的一個聖火手之一馬上在同天5月16號"},{"start":23588.692,"end":23606.351,"text":"總統府又立刻來派出蕭美琴副總統去參加市狀運但是5月17號當天就開幕所以整個維安又開始要整個升級因為國家元首副總統來總就是這個規格是不一樣的"},{"start":23607.597,"end":23632.216,"text":"所以我想請教一下為什麼我們現在總統也好總統府秘書長也好國安會秘書長也好可以如此的任性想不來就不來想來就來當作兒戲嗎我想請問一下總統當天說5月17號國政繁忙其實我有特別去查當天5月17號總統的行程總統府的公開行程"},{"start":23636.099,"end":23655.071,"text":"事實上講沒有公開行程但是當天下午有公佈說總統有接見外賓啦那是上午的時間接下來我們看不到任何怎麼樣的國政繁忙難道賴總統他有跟川普通電話我們不知道嗎"},{"start":23656.431,"end":23671.125,"text":"繁忙到像這個視壯運你也沒有任何公開行程啊你也沒有到哪裡去視察啊還是說真的有跟美國的政要川普通電話而我們不知道呢機密到我們不知道"},{"start":23671.946,"end":23700.468,"text":"所以這樣子的一個很任性的行為我真的覺得要適可而止要對某一些的活動對於立法院要給予一定的尊重另外我想請教一下因為這邊有特別來解凍特別講到媒體那這裡面還特別提到就是我們有總統府LINE的官方帳號"},{"start":23701.98,"end":23718.577,"text":"最近 副秘書長也有一個大錯字吧 應該是兩個大錯字精精業業 是吧這個 我是覺得有點拉扯啦但是 重點是 我想請教一下"},{"start":23719.673,"end":23733.206,"text":"每一次總統的週年就職週年總統的談話洞見觀瞻請問一下在今年有多少國內的媒體國內的媒體有向總統發出邀約請問一下國內的媒體其實陸陸續續都有在邀約他應該很多吧"},{"start":23741.673,"end":23756.529,"text":"有的這裡說很多因為總統的就職週年總統每一句話不管是兩岸的國際的經濟的國防等等都是很重要的"},{"start":23758.53,"end":23779.523,"text":"那可以告訴我嗎你們接受媒體的這個邀約一定有有多少家屬我講的是本國媒體家屬的部分馬上跟委員報告我想紅衛委員那外國媒體呢紅衛委員您自己以前也是媒體對外國媒體呢這個我問的都是事實這沒有什麼好好保密的嘛因為我為什麼要問這個問題我為什麼要再問這個問題因為這一次在至早到目前為止"},{"start":23787.148,"end":23814.623,"text":"昨天520嘛今天521嘛到目前為止我只看到總統接受了一家外媒日本經濟新聞一家本國媒體財訊另外還有叫最近大家提到的因為認為總統失言把台灣當作一個可交易的幫他當成公司併購的叫做敏迪選獨對不對他是一個podcast"},{"start":23816.175,"end":23839.94,"text":"然後還有嗎我有沒有遺漏的沒有遺漏怎麼只會這樣少少的媒體呢我就想說顯然應該有很多媒體會要邀訪總統好 我要講的是你們今天要讓我們解凍是因為呢宣傳非常重要沒錯 總統的宣傳很重要大外宣 大內宣都很重要但是如果有很多媒體願意來幫總統宣傳"},{"start":23842.521,"end":23865.447,"text":"如果照您所講 很多媒體都有來邀約為什麼到目前為止 我剛講說我有沒有遺漏 沒有遺漏怎麼就是只有這麼少數的外媒一家 本媒一家 然後一個podcast當然舉行一個記者會 啊 沒有了啊怎麼這樣子呢這麼好的一個大內宣大外宣機會 為什麼要這樣措施呢"},{"start":23867.512,"end":23891.037,"text":"其實針對台灣的國際形象 洪文委員您過去一直在幫忙也很感謝啦那近期賴總統的專訪等等總共會有五次那我想一任總統他在不同階段跟時期會有不同的露出那我們這一次其實我想洪文委員很謝謝你日本的年輕的世代對於台灣很好奇"},{"start":23891.617,"end":23906.58,"text":"那同時在這一次獨賣電視的流量也好反應都很正面那我想過去我們朝野一起努力那紅衛委員也很幫忙那我們以往是全球各個五大洲那這一次"},{"start":23906.96,"end":23933.475,"text":"比較focus在日本這一塊那反映成效都很好那我想接下來還有一些不斷不同的露出的情況我特別去講這一個這當然是因為今天正好五二一因為總統就職週年那你們又特別提到這個解冬案裡面把這個有關於沒宣的這一塊作為也算是你們的重點那所以我要講的就是說其實有很多的宣傳不一定要由政府花錢嘛"},{"start":23934.155,"end":23937.959,"text":"就是當然總統會比較辛苦一點 幕僚辛苦一點要幫他準備 幫他猜題 或者一般來講媒體都會把題目提供給你要幫他準備 不要讓總統失言 讓總統講話要有內容等等那當然不要有錯字 什麼兢兢業業這一類的"},{"start":23953.41,"end":23976.349,"text":"那我覺得這個就要多多去把握嘛那我覺得這一次讓我感覺就是啊怎麼怎麼就這幾家媒體啊當然你要去嘗試一些非過去的這個傳統媒體我覺得也很好但是呢如果除非啊除非我最後要問除非有媒體很多媒體都不要來邀約了我也不想邀約啊有什麼好講講你就這樣子那如果還是有媒體邀約就應該把握而不是只是想要花錢而已好不好"},{"start":23982.714,"end":24005.415,"text":"宏威委員也快速跟您做一分鐘的報告這一次新聞發布裡面因為視聽的方式開始改變了所以我們很期待有聽樂平權那我想這幾年朝野一起努力那台灣被全世界在關注我們有直播那還有一些手語也好或各國的翻譯這都放在我們這一次新聞發布中心的預算"},{"start":24006.596,"end":24014.182,"text":"副秘書長 我真的覺得你也很辛苦啊因為我知道你今天一直就是要拜訪我們在野的黨團這個精神可嘉賴總統要給你加分但是呢 我覺得你要去講什麼過兩個禮拜啊 大家就要餓肚子我覺得大可不必啦"},{"start":24025.612,"end":24040.082,"text":"不用太誇張啦 好不好因為基本上 你看我們這個召委很主動的來排解凍案早上休息 但是下午立刻排解凍案都非常大家一起來配合 好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝宏偉委員 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":24065.068,"end":24071.972,"text":"來 謝謝主席 遵照主席的命令那是你講的我要簡單問一下 兩位副秘書長兩位副秘書長好我剛才看吳宗憲招委這樣 愛愛求 堅固卑卑我們都 求都叫不來你覺得你很不民主 你也不民主我們那四萬萬次有人會想漏氣你當作你叫不來 人家有給你簽名"},{"start":24093.578,"end":24099.641,"text":"奇怪的喔,他都在叫,不是在叫什麼總統府,總統府潘秘書長有給你請假嘛,對不對,官會沒來嘛,有請假嗎?人家也有給你請假,還算不錯的,我真的羨慕死你了,我跟你講,昨晚來,連來都不來,連給我請個假,打個電話都沒有"},{"start":24111.787,"end":24127.793,"text":"不要哀啦 我們兩個苦難兄弟昨天是520 總統的就職一週年這一年看起來也是風風雨雨那我要就教兩位了就是說其實我大家都看到說草野是"},{"start":24129.073,"end":24151.361,"text":"攻防激烈 當然也是對立啦 非常的嚴重啦但是呢 這影響到的就是一些法案的一個通過 還有預算的一個凍結啦那大選過後 到現在第一當的行政團隊算是走得也蠻辛苦啦 蠻辛苦那我先詢問一下 我們複密這一次來 你有什麼樣的感想 你覺得整個政體怎麼樣還可以讓整個政府更精進的地方"},{"start":24158.308,"end":24182.762,"text":"我想這個部分還是要多聽委員專業的委員的想法跟意見但是我覺得在這一年的時間以來我認為國際社會越來越喜歡台灣也更重視台灣那在此時此刻我認為朝野的團結非常的重要一起讓在變動的國際環境當中走一個更穩定更安定而且更前瞻的路謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":24184.119,"end":24203.663,"text":"你這個回答的定義說對外宣示而已,我是在說你看到應該檢討的地方不是說什麼更團結,本來每一個國家裡面要更團結我說你都就你的觀察,你覺得我們政府哪些地方該精進你現在是叫在野黨要精進,我是說我們自己政務要怎麼精進我相信這也是要聽委員的,委員有什麼想法,我記錄起來,我繼續核實"},{"start":24211.467,"end":24236.593,"text":"這下不錯 有進步了 感謝 感謝你副院長 你的看法是怎樣看法跟志偉 副院看法一樣厲害啦 你們兩個今天來要討錢而已啦但也很好 也很好那昨天啦 我看大家也都很清楚啦立法院就通過這個公投案 就核三這個部分我不曉得兩位喔 有沒有就這個議題裡面"},{"start":24239.928,"end":24258.619,"text":"總統府裡面有沒有任何的一個討論我看總統府也去發表了一些看法對於整個河山到底要不要去做研議提到的是說 河安無虞 河廢料有解 社會上有共識那這當然是一個基本前提 我要問的就是說你們對這個 總統府你們有去討論到嗎還是國安會會不會去討論到這個議題這涉及到國安 涉及到國安 我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":24267.625,"end":24289.742,"text":"你像譬如說2011年3月11日福島核災發生的時候你可不可以知道我們那時候在看的時候全世界差不多都對日本都在核實全部都限制他們的一個進口日本人也要叫哪五個縣市你們還記得吧你們有人知道嗎"},{"start":24294.606,"end":24306.974,"text":"我問你這是有關你們嗎?福島當然是首當其衝,它的農產、水產甚至畜牧,這全部都被全世界給它做一個抵制"},{"start":24308.797,"end":24332.264,"text":"赤城在旁邊栗木還有群馬還有一個最遠的叫千葉縣有到水千葉縣如果到福島差不多要三百公里兩三百公里我特別這樣講如果是你河山的話那用311福島這樣的一個河災事變的話如果要三百公里到台灣大陸你知道嗎差不多到大陸你知道嗎"},{"start":24337.541,"end":24353.383,"text":"國安咧 開什麼玩笑 我這不是亂問的 想就差不多九秒了九秒就代表什麼意思 你知道 就是說河山萬一有任何的一個事情發生的話萬一啊 大家都沒希望會發生啊 那差不多啊"},{"start":24354.437,"end":24356.258,"text":"差不多要用輔導來看 農產、水產、畜產全部都不能處理所以這個問題就是非常非常嚴重所以我本期昨天一直在講說過去40年國民黨在我們國家公園旁邊放了兩顆反應爐"},{"start":24378.137,"end":24398.091,"text":"那四十年我們以為屏東這個就可以解除這樣的一個災難為這個國家貢獻那麼久了沒有想到又來一個白色的民眾黨又提了一個案要繼續再言喻所以我昨天才會下一個註解藍白真的在我們台灣對我們屏東來講真的不是什麼好東西重點是說"},{"start":24399.392,"end":24412.649,"text":"那萬一啊 萬一啊 這如果真的到時候過後產生的衝擊會那麼大總統府對這方面你們到底有沒有去做任何的一個推 沙盤的一個推演你們兩個有聽到嗎 有就說有 說沒有也沒關係啊"},{"start":24420.345,"end":24447.89,"text":"委任理的問責跟質詢我們都很關心齁那但是這個目前這一塊我本身我自己個人沒有這個業務的執掌所以我可能要很謹慎如果可以允許我一點時間讓我去問好不好拜託 其實這也不用問啦你如果做到日本啦 這個是一個良心的問題啦會通過這個就是說 別人的孩子死不了啦 別人的孩子死不了就是說這個台北的觀點跟南部的觀點會完全不一樣啦"},{"start":24448.888,"end":24466.85,"text":"你像如果說合一為什麼他不弄合一合二合一合二的話按照整個任何的核電廠你只要哪發生核災20公里全部都要全部人都要遣照那30公里的都要去避難"},{"start":24468.22,"end":24487.697,"text":"核災一發生 常常會因為地形 常常會因為整個風向還有你下雨 影響會很大日本到現在還哇哇叫 日本現在還認為我們是對他貿易歧視那五個縣市 我們現在還要他安全證明還有他整個輻射的一個檢測 為了國人的安全"},{"start":24489.474,"end":24517.289,"text":"2022年 我們政府開放之後 整個國民黨都叫民進黨的政府現在他自己說核酸要研議 當然研議不代表核酸會怎麼樣但是重點就是說 一個負責任的政府你那個核廢料沒有能力去處理的話你憑什麼要跟人家說 你要繼續用這個核電廠任何一個縣市 只要有垃圾廠的 大家都帶頭抗爭"},{"start":24519.264,"end":24523.031,"text":"這合作的 副秘書長 你如果在做議員 或是在做理負業生白頭如果還要再衝一個 垃圾也不要衝下去"},{"start":24526.496,"end":24543.326,"text":"一直用帶頭抗爭的啊帶頭抗爭的人說 吼 這不是叫做正義怎麼可以荼毒我們這裡的一個環境都這樣說 台東也一樣台東的垃圾也不要藏 藏了一堆我就這樣叫我們的環境部長去說 啊啦 我們把它倒下去垃圾我們給它分 整個都在裡面 也不是煩惱把它燒燒的 把它美化 嘿 他們痛到你知道嗎結果連垃圾他們都沒有了"},{"start":24553.662,"end":24577.272,"text":"說我們屏東 說放合會 說沒關係這個我就想都想不通啦但我今天是語重心長啦 涉及到國家的重大政策我也希望說兩位 兩位對這個可以啊我本來想說你會進一步來提供一點想法啦沒有想到這個部分你們是沒有涉及但是啊 我覺得你們剛剛有一點回答不太好的地方視狀運的部分 人家說總統該不會來"},{"start":24581.704,"end":24585.492,"text":"你覺得在社會說全世界幾個國家在這麼久以來總統去出席的你覺得有這樣的記錄別的國家"},{"start":24596.795,"end":24615.951,"text":"第一件事情我想快速回覆委員關於核廢的部分我一定把你的意見帶回去然後我會用最快的時間趕快回覆你那關於市壯域的部分委員其實這一次不管是中央還是地方其實中央挹注的預算來到三到四成以上"},{"start":24616.591,"end":24641.756,"text":"那至於總統的出席 過往的形式不見得是在開幕式我們大概 我有看過一些資料有些國家的總統也會跟著一起去跑步 運動等等的所以它形式很多元 你要看過嗎你真的要看過別的國家的總統去出席過嗎開幕式我這個真的是資料上面沒有特別顯示我可能還要再研究一下下但是他們的形式很不同啊 那我看一看喔"},{"start":24642.976,"end":24658.582,"text":"實在是 大家都應該這樣說啦 大家期待總統來嘛 來鬥老鹹嘛 總統老時間來好事情嘛 啊如果沒來 這就不一定要強制總統去啊 啊也副總統去啊我怎麼知道你這條街碎嘎 街碎嘎 這條街碎嘎 這樣裡裡魯魯 街街你都怕副總統有去 副總統有去 還有地主對啦 這你自己都要加強的所在 好 謝謝感謝 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請審發會委員 審發會委員 審發"},{"start":24670.714,"end":24674.035,"text":"好 那在下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言首先先請何秘書長 何富密"},{"start":24695.049,"end":24723.151,"text":"黃委員您好是何步密您好這個因為今天早上我們考慮到就是國安會秘書長還有總統府秘書長沒有來所以我們早上就是先會議休息然後呢您在中間的時候是不是有接受媒體訪問講說我們如果今天總統府的預算案不解凍的話阿兵哥再兩星期就沒飯吃是嗎是的是您不覺得您這樣子說這個話"},{"start":24726.017,"end":24729.522,"text":"這個混淆是非啊我們今天要解凍的是什麼案子業務費裡面是跟阿兵哥的伙食費相同嗎我們是當時是凍結的是阿兵哥的伙食費嗎"},{"start":24739.875,"end":24743.92,"text":"他是在我們的業務費裡面的其中一項一項什麼我快速跟是廚師費嘛在聘廚師的費用你們自己報告裡面顯示聘廚師的費用對不對他接下來的確會影響到他們的三餐的膳食"},{"start":24760.118,"end":24772.11,"text":"今天我們要解凍的是什麼費用是廚師的費用嘛 聘廚師的費用你們自己報告書上面寫得很清楚啊每個月差不多八萬多塊錢 聘廚師的費用這個跟伙食費不一樣啊您說話有沒有邏輯太跳躍了"},{"start":24780.902,"end":24789.897,"text":"我們伙食費沒有刪 沒有凍結就算是今天沒有廚師去煮飯給阿兵哥吃還是可以對外買水餃 買便當 買麥當勞吧"},{"start":24795.564,"end":24810.638,"text":"不會讓阿B哥餓到肚子嘛對不對我們真的很擔心啦就是第一個包含水電費沒了然後他們的三餐全部其實我真的很不會煮飯我最會煮的就是維大利炸醬麵而已"},{"start":24812.239,"end":24832.708,"text":"那廚師也好他們要選材洗材然後還要清潔而且因為總統府跟其他的單位比較不一樣他負責國家中樞這些元首甚至像各個重要的官員是 何富密您說的我都了解我也絕對是認為說我們辛苦的憲兵弟兄們不可以讓他們餓肚子不可以讓他們吃不好這完全都同意"},{"start":24840.531,"end":24858.04,"text":"那今天的解凍說實在話也沒有什麼太大的困難因為當時本來就認為說這部分請你們要做專案報告可是我今天很不滿的是你怎麼可以對外放話說我們如果今天這個廚師這個費用不解凍阿斌哥就會餓肚子兩星期"},{"start":24859.317,"end":24864.962,"text":"再兩星期阿兵哥就會餓肚子啊這是錯誤的這是一個造謠跟委員報告不僅僅阿兵哥會餓到肚子我們連一些僱員都會被解僱掉大概二十幾個人所以委員如果說我講話這跟業務費的解凍這是兩回事我現在只是講說你接受媒體採訪的時候因為你又這麼有媒體經驗你怎麼會不知道說這句話的影響力"},{"start":24887.361,"end":24903.311,"text":"所以我現在只是要糾正這只是我們今天要解凍 也許只是一個聘廚室的費用但是這跟阿兵哥的伙食費沒有關係請你不要在那邊造謠說又是我們藍白立委喔這是害阿兵哥又沒飯吃 又讓他們餓肚子"},{"start":24905.151,"end":24908.332,"text":"真的讓他們餓肚子的是你們啦如果說這個沒有拚到廚師或是廚師辭職如果廚師辭職的話是不是阿兵哥就會餓肚子呢不會嘛你們還是會想辦法買外賣啊我同意溫委員的說法那但是很抱歉我來質詢台備詢之前我五六日我有問一下我們第一線的這些兄弟姊妹士官兵我說你們誰會煮飯"},{"start":24931.55,"end":24942.14,"text":"他們都說現在什麼時代一定要會煮飯嗎就是阿兵哥的伙食是一定要要自己有廚師去煮飯嗎對不對好啦這個何鳳敏我不要再跟你討論這個細節齁那麼我只是要希望你能夠為這個事情"},{"start":24948.586,"end":24954.589,"text":"至少要說明白不是砍的是伙食費而是廚師費對不對我希望待會的這個媒體也可以做更正報導就澄清啦事實澄清的報導但是他們真的說他們又要站哨然後又要曬太陽他們下"},{"start":24966.494,"end":24975.78,"text":"哪一個軍人弟兄不是這樣,所以我們才要調高軍人待遇啊,你們又反對民進黨的委員又反對,反對給軍人待遇調整"},{"start":24982.776,"end":25001.641,"text":"所以民進黨很多的邏輯是非常奇怪的接下來我要問的就是說有關於你們講說因為業務被刪所以可能會影響到總統府的媒體新聞的宣傳等等我在這裡我想請問這次總統他接受了幾個媒體的採訪"},{"start":25004.585,"end":25015.662,"text":"是總統府有沒有付這個受訪的費用不管是閩迪選讀日本經濟新聞還有這個部分就我所知沒有"},{"start":25016.958,"end":25022.222,"text":"這是沒有?確定沒有?確定沒有好,我們之後下一年度看的時候,看到你們的經費報,這其實是有這個像過去蔡英文總統大選舉的時候我還記得是接受博恩夜夜秀的訪問本來以為說博恩夜夜秀是單純去邀訪等到事後才發現,這也是付費的啊所以你們確定嗎?這三個節目是沒有付任何的費用給媒體"},{"start":25046.338,"end":25056.717,"text":"那如果是這樣的話那就代表說其實媒體對於總統府的這個各項的業務啊採訪這些都是很有興趣那你們其實真的可以節省這筆費用啊"},{"start":25057.662,"end":25080.675,"text":"你們媒體新聞宣傳費可以節省起來反正這麼多的媒體都對總統府很有興趣對總統的八眼也很有興趣以後應該要多邀他們來做免費報導我覺得這一方面也是節省功效我跟委員報告一下其實帶我長大的我自己是單親家庭啦帶我長大的是一個身心障礙的哥哥我自己的"},{"start":25082.316,"end":25105.846,"text":"這個表格那我想台灣為什麼會讓全世界尊重我們因為我們在總統在說話的時候不管是聽障的朋友還是如何我們都有手語的翻譯我們不要漏了不要漏了任何一個人那此外其實台灣受到全世界的尊重跟喜愛我們有多國的翻譯都在這一筆的預算裡面"},{"start":25106.266,"end":25118.154,"text":"所以另外一個部分 何富密您講的我知道但是我覺得您又岔題了這也是我很佩服您的地方我剛剛其實問就是說是總統接受媒體訪問總統府有沒有付錢沒有 那沒有就非常好那就代表說總統的發言還有總統府的公關做得很好媒體都願意來免費報導那這樣我也鼓勵你們未來可以朝這個方向去做可是我們的直播怎麼辦呢有關於這個緊急危難的部分我們的翻譯怎麼辦"},{"start":25136.406,"end":25145.854,"text":"你們可以把你們要去做媒體更換的費用我們也不可能長期的找志工來這樣子真的會口語的翻譯好那接下來我要這個這個部分的費用解凍我們待會會再談接下來我還會再講就是說有關於緊急為難未問津的部分看起來你們是如果這個費用沒有解凍國務教費裡面這個我們現在是動多少是"},{"start":25166.451,"end":25179.855,"text":"動了一千萬如果沒有動的話總統是連緊急危難的補助金慰問金都發不出來是嗎是的我跟委員報告一下請問一下總統現在一個月領多少薪水最近的這個車禍的事件"},{"start":25182.784,"end":25194.259,"text":"總統其實到現場他也不接受媒體的訪問所以總統心有餘而力不足因為他沒有那個錢可以先支出緊急危難的慰問金是嗎"},{"start":25197.463,"end":25212.686,"text":"就我所知他有時候會自己掏腰包啦至少我現在沒有聽到總統有自己掏腰包付支付緊急危難慰問金的情況我們只有看到中央保護不斷地講我們如果說扣了國務機要費那總統就沒有辦法用我們的公帑去支付緊急危難的慰問金"},{"start":25221.408,"end":25228.873,"text":"其實他不僅僅緊急為難 包含一些軍警我想請教一下總統每個月現在支領是多少薪水100萬嗎70萬要精準喔 要精準喔來 請回應"},{"start":25240.209,"end":25251.72,"text":"因為我們今年有調薪3%公教人員有調薪3%那總統副總統的薪水我們依照內政部配合公教人員調薪3%他答覆給我們的是54萬6970台加特資費呢"},{"start":25255.509,"end":25270.493,"text":"沒有特製費啊做的就是國際藥費嘛對就是一個月五六十萬嘛還加年終獎金等等我們這樣講好了表達一個心意表達一個慰問金就算是這個國際藥費暫時凍結總統連這點小錢都不願意出嗎他連這樣的一個慰問的這個慰問的這個費用請問委員我可以回答嗎對他可以先暫待啊"},{"start":25281.456,"end":25299.951,"text":"我覺得今天講的好像是總統只要是沒有這筆錢他連一般的社會的慰問啊緊急危難啊這些都沒有辦法做我覺得這是總統的心意就算是我們現在我們立法委員我們沒有編任何的什麼緊急危難的這個費用我遇到了"},{"start":25300.836,"end":25313.213,"text":"有需要帮忙的人需要去救助的我自己还是会用我的薪水去会花自己的钱去救助"},{"start":25314.315,"end":25342.34,"text":"所以我認為說總統府不要把這些事情拿來講說因為這個錢如果不解凍的話會影響到委員可以給我30秒我30秒快速回應其實每一年總統府都會跟我們的弱勢團體採購水果或者手工皂手工餅乾這些讓這些社福團體他們能夠被看到而且有時候募款很辛苦的時候他們可以去做到第二件事情跟委員報告"},{"start":25343.76,"end":25357.777,"text":"你可以上網自己搜尋其實賴總統以前真的都把他的薪水有捐給很多不同的社福團體但是他為善不欲人知所以並沒有特別的去做PR或者是做這些公關的部分"},{"start":25369.055,"end":25392.808,"text":"今天是副秘書長來我想您今天大概從早到現在大概也受到了很多的炮火其實大家不是對您不滿大家主要是對吳釗燮秘書長不滿真的是藐視國會明明按照我們現在的組織法國安會就是有要到立法院來備詢而且接受立法院的監督可是你們可以這麼多次都不來坦白說看起來"},{"start":25394.029,"end":25405.268,"text":"吳釗信秘書長也不太在乎國安會的這個預算到底要不要解凍那因為剛剛涉及到一個事情所以我在這裡我要講就是剛剛說政務人員待遇為什麼我們只凍十萬元"},{"start":25406.618,"end":25417.609,"text":"我要講的是當時的提案是因為我們有發現國安會在政務人員待遇今年的編列費用比去年高達多出15.85%這是超出過去的這個幅度"},{"start":25424.315,"end":25428.857,"text":"而且依照公務人員的加薪每年加3%3%也加不到15.85%所以我們提出來這個問題請你們做專案報告後來這個本來是凍結100萬後來談談說好吧現在這樣的話只凍了10萬元"},{"start":25439.762,"end":25460.918,"text":"是這樣的緣由不是王一川委員說的他那時候還沒有進來所以我就說委員要用功啦要去質詢的時候也要先看看人家之前的提案是什麼不要在那邊亂造謠那接下來還有一個部分就是有關於國安會這邊講的說要我們對於這個諮詢研究業務費用希望國安會要提出專案報告你們現在列的這是什麼這是叫專案報告兩頁叫專案報告"},{"start":25468.772,"end":25477.82,"text":"許副秘書長您的報告的概念跟我們做報告的概念是完全不一樣這加起來可能都還不到兩千字這就叫做報告報委員這個內容主要是"},{"start":25484.312,"end":25488.974,"text":"因為當時黃國昌委員問的是我們那個經費是怎麼使用那我們就是把用人別國別還有旅行的次數把它報告出來所以你們去了哪些國家做了什麼樣研究做了什麼調查難道我們沒有權利知道嗎難道人民不應該知道說到底關會每年編了這麼多的錢是用到哪裡了"},{"start":25507.981,"end":25532.72,"text":"我們怎麼知道說你們是不是到日本去看黑熊不是到什麼冰島去看極光我們不可能去冰島看極光啦所以你要告訴我你們要去哪個國家會被我們懷疑我們這裡面都有專案每個專案去哪些但是委員我跟您說去哪些國家我們沒辦法講這是因為我們國安人員出去通常是不露出的"},{"start":25533.16,"end":25536.341,"text":"這是基於雙方的一個 非常牢固所以他去哪裡跟什麼人接手你沒辦法講我們立法院也可以開秘密會議我們可以不需要公開讓所有的媒體讓所有的民眾看這個直播但是我們立法院可以召開秘密會議你們也可以提密件報告在國防外交委員會都有這麼做"},{"start":25558.311,"end":25578.225,"text":"所以你們沒有道理說不讓我們立法委員知道你們今天到底去哪裡開會否則我們很合理的懷疑為什麼不敢講對不對連監察院都可以說他們編列外國參旅費是到日本去看黑熊那國安會議到底你們做了些什麼"},{"start":25579.546,"end":25591.035,"text":"總是可以跟我們個別委員或是我們就裝開一個小的群組讓我們大概知道我們也不需要知道具體名下名所以這個叫專案報告這是一個不合格的專案報告啊所以我們只能這樣寫"},{"start":25596.246,"end":25619.168,"text":"我寫的沒有不跟您講請教主席如果說今天我們認為這個專案報告裡面的內容應該要更清楚那麼國安會認為說這可能社交親密我們是不是可以開一個秘密會議呢就是我們純粹委員這邊然後這樣才能夠知道他們的專案報告內容什麼否則的話我們今天怎麼可能會讓你們這個案子過"},{"start":25621.872,"end":25624.696,"text":"就預算的部分他這裡我們不是講說就他的研究諮詢業務當時的研究諮詢業務說三個月內提出專案報告並經同意嗎"},{"start":25637.11,"end":25661.374,"text":"有沒有這個可能性因為我問了一下我們本委員會以前從來沒有過這樣的前例啦是沒有這個前例但是不代表說不可以開嘛在我們法規上面有禁止說司法法治委員會不可以開命令會議嗎對否則我覺得這未來就是一個漏洞啊對不對國安會每年的預算送給我們審查結果我們竟然沒有辦法知道說他們到底用到哪裡去了只有一個總統頭的一個經費"},{"start":25664.395,"end":25674.89,"text":"幾千萬上億我有分區域有分次數這我都有報告那我怎麼知道你寫的是對還是不對我們都有經過會計和審核我們不可能撒謊啊"},{"start":25677.14,"end":25702.521,"text":"現在連光雲撒謊這個大法官都認為沒有處罰啦所以我根本不知道你們到底有沒有撒謊啦我們經過會計程序怎麼可能撒謊呢我想我們立法院重要的職責基本上就是監督警戒機關我們也很希望了解到底業務機關做了什麼事情這個可以作為你們日後要增加預算"},{"start":25703.061,"end":25717.12,"text":"或是在兵力預算的時候就我們大家就比較清楚否則的話現在以你們這樣子的一個報告方式我們根本不知道你們到底去開了什麼會議做了什麼考察然後只是說依照地區然後什麼來區分"},{"start":25719.022,"end":25746.713,"text":"任何一個機關的報告都不可能這樣子寫報告委員我們不是去考察我們都是去開會沒有考察這種東西是 所以去開會會議總要有個名稱吧有名稱但是沒辦法講報告委員沒辦法在這裡講我是跟您說實話所以我才說這可能可以涉及到密會或是你們有密件的方式來提供給我們知道送密件的方式是其他委員會也都有過的不是說沒有的"},{"start":25747.953,"end":25761.001,"text":"對 我們如果看了密件 未來我們洩漏機密這個是要負責任的 負刑責的每個委員都很清楚我們的法律責任是什麼可是你們不能因此而規避掉你們的責任我們沒有規避 報告委員我們沒有規避"},{"start":25762.148,"end":25767.29,"text":"我可以把你們的報告我直接貼臉書然後請社會大眾來公平看看我們是不是同意國安會這樣的專案報告可以讓他解凍預算因為我今天耽誤太多時間雖然我還準備了很多題目不過就是謝謝昭緯給我這樣的時間"},{"start":25784.678,"end":25793.282,"text":"秘會的部分 因為以前沒有前例啦 那今天會後的話我們會研究一下那當然法規沒有禁止 這個是我要在這邊先跟各位報告"},{"start":25796.431,"end":25821.501,"text":"那那個剛剛就是有關翁委員所提到的就是火石費的部分因為剛剛我們那個國防外交委員會的委員有特別請我在這邊跟大家說明一下就是因為國軍的官兵薪資裡面是由官兵向那個單位繳納納入火石團採買所以總統府的預算如果被凍結憲兵"},{"start":25823.962,"end":25848.544,"text":"就是211營它的伙食它是無關的所以說這是剛剛那個國防委員會的委員給我們的就是說今天的業務費如果沒有解凍的話其實跟官兵沒有錢吃飯是兩回事這是剛剛國防委員會那當然這部分再請大家了解一下好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":25863.444,"end":25877.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 語重心長的嘆息因為剛剛聽到了非常多不實的訊息我想要逐一來跟國安會還有和複密這邊澄清 謝謝所以要請兩位複密署長好"},{"start":25884.693,"end":25907.45,"text":"兩位辛苦了我想我們今天之所以還要在這邊今天已經五月底了我們還要在這邊認真來討論預算解凍案事出必有因那我想這個因就是來自於在去年二輪預算提出來的時候藍白共同提出三四千案我們認為極度不合理的預算甚至沒有專業考慮沒有專業的討論"},{"start":25909.932,"end":25925.728,"text":"通常在本委我們要提出預算的時候一定是基於我們在這整個委員會對相關機關部會業務的理解我們提出一個立法委員該行的職權我們進行監督進行討論所以我們透過預算這是一個手段跟方法對嗎兩位"},{"start":25927.548,"end":25942.556,"text":"那過去像這樣子的監督機制有遇到像今年這麼大的困難嗎可不可以分享一下那也許國安會這邊比較資深你要不要分享一下今年算不算是一種史無前例的荒謬的亂象"},{"start":25944.588,"end":25960.438,"text":"今年相對於過去若干年是比較困難比較困難好 您講得非常保守我直接說是荒謬跟亂象我過去在教育文化委員會我們每一個人基於自己的專業跟理解我們在第一輪負責任的提出我們的預算案"},{"start":25961.118,"end":25976.835,"text":"然後我們認真的討論最後藍白還有民進黨會做出默契也就是朝野對於相關預算跟業務的推廣是有一定的默契到了二輪提案的時候通常各個委員辦公室都是因為可能時間來不及啦或者是可能之前沒有想到大家再補題這是過往的案例那當然我們來立法院的資歷比較淺才來兩年"},{"start":25984.162,"end":26004.023,"text":"但是這兩年或者是我們參考過去非常多優秀專業的立法會的提案我們發現比較是這個狀況所以我才說雖然我才來兩年但是我認為目前在今年也就是他們去年藍白提出來荒謬二輪的超過三四千案的預算提案是荒謬的這是我個人的見解"},{"start":26005.184,"end":26027.779,"text":"剛剛還有非常多委員也問了我覺得很荒謬的問題第一個他請問何富密說我們的賴總統到三峽的現場去勘栽的時候沒有接受訪問然後第一時間表達關心我們很謝謝賴總統做出這個動作但是他剛剛一直問說為什麼總統沒有捐款總統的薪水有多少然後總統為什麼沒有捐款"},{"start":26029.256,"end":26057.923,"text":"我不知道這樣的問題意義何在喔那如果真的要認真追究捐款這件事情呢我想我就先問馬英九總統任內當時他標榜要達到633他還說如果沒有達到633他要捐出薪水的一半但事後他自己承認並沒有捐出來那是不是我們也可以問這個事情那當然這個事過境遷也不關何複密您的事情如果真的要追究賴清德總統有沒有捐款呢網路上有人幫忙整理我今天就來分享一兩個"},{"start":26059.687,"end":26077.353,"text":"以我以關心兒少的角度來看2018年2月9號台南家福中心頒助獎學金賴清的總統當時捐助了獎學金超過500萬其中有100萬是選舉補助款2018年3月12號學甲伯利恆藻寮教育中心落成賴清的總統捐了500萬也是來自選舉補助款"},{"start":26081.035,"end":26101.465,"text":"2021年4月5號捐助台鐵事故傷亡者當時蔡英文總統賴清德副總統蘇貞昌院長捐一個月所得2021年10月15號寄助陳忠誠災戶蔡英文總統賴清德副總統陳其邁等捐出一個月的薪水所得這只是我剛剛舉的其中一些些例子"},{"start":26102.225,"end":26110.833,"text":"我並不是要請何鳳敏把這個訊息帶回去請總統再捐款我想在委員在質詢台上必須要負責任對自己的言論負責而我認為剛剛有非常多在野黨的委員一再的造謠抹黑那導致於我們必須要浪費我們自己的質詢時間但我認為正確資訊傳達是非常非常重要的"},{"start":26124.466,"end":26134.962,"text":"每一個人要不要捐款是出自於自己的決定自己的選擇但在公開的質詢台上造謠賴清德總統沒有捐款這件事情我認為大可不必喔"},{"start":26135.811,"end":26162.506,"text":"好那我們來看一下如果要來看相關預算我認為我們不如實質的來看你們在這麼困難的預算執行情況下還是有非常多事情需要你們在業務推廣上不斷前進不是嗎你們並沒有因為如此就不去上班然後或者是坐在那邊什麼事都沒做不是嗎對那我們來看一下喔而且還有很多國人關心的問題我想我要先謝謝你們一再的努力喔"},{"start":26163.942,"end":26175.055,"text":"而且我要再次強調今天這一切的亂象預算的亂象今天之所以還要站在這邊真的是因為莫名其妙荒謬的二輪預算提案不問專業好第一個"},{"start":26178.697,"end":26194.216,"text":"你看每次發生事情你們就會被叫來罵對不對像我今天沒有要罵你們啦我要跟你們討論喔終極人士在中小學門口直播這件事情我們非常謝謝警政署在第一時間他們去調查相關個案那他給了我一個說法說"},{"start":26195.678,"end":26223.661,"text":"違反個資法違反妨害秘密罪還有違反兒少權法非常謝謝警政署的同仁在預算也有困難的情況下依然努力工作那我想要請問國安會就國安的角度我們可不可以告訴國人在相關的疑慮情況下我們應該要注意什麼樣的事情因為確實在社群裡面不管是家長不管是老師其實很多大人都非常的擔心那這個在"},{"start":26224.682,"end":26236.171,"text":"警政署這段問題已經解決了但是如果我們回到我們去看中國的很多社群你按相關關鍵字滿滿的影片我們真的還是很擔心我想要請國安會給我們一些說明好不好"},{"start":26237.334,"end":26258.497,"text":"報告委員 我想這樣的事情我們當然是非常關切我想除了因為警政單位他們主要是接受報案我覺得我們國人自己要提高警覺包括家長跟學校方面如果看到甚至一般的民眾我有朋友今天就去檢舉"},{"start":26259.878,"end":26274.686,"text":"她昨天就在學校門口看到可疑的人所以是負面女的朋友真的有看到是 他們還坐在學校附近的人行道上面也就是說這個事情並沒有停止 對嗎只是可能沒有在新聞流量上甚至今天可能都還在進行好"},{"start":26275.726,"end":26304.928,"text":"你覺得可以檢舉 我們可以向派出所先檢舉是 是我的朋友檢舉以後 那我們國安會這邊那個警察都非常負責的問得很詳細 是所以我相信我們警政單位已經非常嚴肅的面對這件事情好 那接下來就國安的角度我們還要注意什麼事情我想我們國安局以及其他的那個相關國安的單位他們會彼此交換訊息然後深入的調查這群人的背景"},{"start":26306.513,"end":26324.508,"text":"我想背景的調查當然很重要那另外一個新聞我們來看一下中國人橡皮艇登台事件頻繁國安破口如何解目前為止到底他是居住在台灣的中國人還是他真的是駕著這個橡皮艇成功登台的目前都還是一個問號但是確實我們還是擔心相關的國安破口"},{"start":26329.332,"end":26349.228,"text":"那甚至我們也擔心這個模式在金門跟馬祖在近期在台灣的數量也越來越多有沒有可能是認知作戰還有所謂的揮帶襲擾那在金門跟馬祖因為過往金門跟馬祖相對於中國或者是他們的立法委員對於中國是相對友善的可能對於相關的認知作戰或所謂的揮帶襲擾"},{"start":26351.109,"end":26363.177,"text":"他們不見得跟我們有一樣程度的認知但我認為這件事情都還是值得討論可是回到台灣本島我們來看這件事情國安單位可不可以給我們一些建議或者是你們後續將會如何處理相關的事情"},{"start":26364.306,"end":26387.045,"text":"是 謝謝委員 這個問題的話分兩個部分首先不論是本島還是外島我們國安單位都認為我們都把它看作是灰色洗腦的一部分這個已經非常確定那當然海巡署跟海委會也表示我們的這個偵測系統可能是有些不足"},{"start":26387.685,"end":26398.138,"text":"那我知道海委會已經向行政院提出海空一體295億的一個預算裡面有強化各方面次世代雷達紅外線熱像儀環島監視系統等等"},{"start":26403.684,"end":26417.192,"text":"這個強調強化我們ISR系統的這個各種各樣的設備但是可能就需要一點時間來建構但是我們已經充分認識到我們要強化我們的海岸巡防的系統"},{"start":26418.432,"end":26439.746,"text":"這個部分謝謝您的回覆我想後續國人的關心國人的焦慮或者是立法院這邊監督都會持續非常非常重要雖然你們在預算很困難的情況下最後我想跟你分享一個是從我們辦公室收集到的另外一個我們認為有高度國安疑慮的個案但我們很擔心它日後會成為通案來往下"},{"start":26441.047,"end":26465.716,"text":"在2022年當時呢直蘭高雄鋼鐵人發現有港資那當時陸委會做了非常積極的處理因為我們認為有國安疑慮那這個部分當然要給2022年的陸委會高度的肯定但是我想要跟兩位分享目前中國在全世界對於運動的滲透其實最簡單的第一步就是開始買球隊來下一張開始買球隊例如說海外足球隊"},{"start":26469.838,"end":26485.943,"text":"非常有名的英超、西甲、普甲、易甲都有甚至在NBA裡面也已經買球隊了買球隊之後可以做非常非常多的事情我今天時間有限不再贅述下一張但是回到台灣我們收到了一個陳情在2024年我們辦公室已經積極處理了"},{"start":26488.504,"end":26514.721,"text":"也就是台中的國立台灣體育運動大學有一個學校的球隊他們可以參加台灣以及足球聯賽他們把這個參賽資格轉讓給一間公司叫峰會體育有限公司看起來這個公司如果你去經濟部網站上查看不太出來什麼問題但是往下看我們跟教育部當然已經討論過教育部相關業務也在進行當中下一張那我們來看一下"},{"start":26518.53,"end":26536.44,"text":"目前國外的俱樂部或者是參賽權利的收購或是轉讓在民間其實是所謂的商業行為可是中華足協足球聯賽是FIFA它是亞足聯系統賽事重點在後面這一句話這些球隊它可以代表台灣參加國際賽"},{"start":26538.661,"end":26551.813,"text":"可是如果這些球隊背後的經營主或者是擁有這個球隊的老闆甚至這個球隊他就只是學校的球隊的參賽權他竟然背後是中資跟港資這有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":26553.561,"end":26567.958,"text":"好 我們往下看 再下一張好 再下一張我要說的是其實不是只有足球 包含排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽也都可以代表台灣參加國際組織的體育賽事代表台灣出隊"},{"start":26573.684,"end":26588.301,"text":"所以我想要請教一下就國安的角度來說當然後續這家公司我們再去追查發現所謂峰會體育有限公司它的負責人是另外一家公司的董事跟發言人而這一家公司背後就是中資跟港資"},{"start":26589.182,"end":26614.529,"text":"所以如果我們連連看會發現他確實有所謂的國安疑慮而這個球隊目前的參賽權已經賣出去了當然教育部那邊或者是監察院這邊他們都有相關調查在進行但是我要把相關這個個案跟國安會討論如果未來在台灣也開始發生中國在海外買球隊的狀況他開始進到台灣來做這個操作你們怎麼看"},{"start":26616.823,"end":26642.246,"text":"報告委員這件事情當然是很嚴重尤其是代表我們國家去參加國際比賽那如果背後有中資港資我想當然是對我們國家利益是不好所以這件事情我想我們會帶回去跟行政院包括教育部還有行政院這邊一起來協調開會以及國安局我們來研究一下應該怎麼樣去防堵這樣的事情發生"},{"start":26642.486,"end":26664.068,"text":"好我也跟您說他除了代表台灣出賽之外他其實有另外一個疑慮假設我背後是中資港資我在台灣甕有一個球隊我有了這個球隊的名義我可能就可以去投標或是承包某些場地的經營權我舉一個例子剛剛這個學校是在台中而台中在明後年就會落成一個足球園區"},{"start":26665.109,"end":26684.462,"text":"而這個足球園區如果真的被這個球隊拿去做經營做場地的經營跟空間我們很難想像背後中資跟港資會如何透過這個身份做出一些滲透跟我們認為灰色襲擾的部分所以我才要把這個看起來是個案但很有可能未來變成通案的狀況跟國安會先行討論好嗎"},{"start":26687.145,"end":26699.407,"text":"謝謝委員指教好 謝謝你們當然希望今天後續的預算解凍跟討論可以順利的進行讓你們可以回去好好上班好 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席好 謝謝 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":26708.108,"end":26722.236,"text":"謝謝主席在我進入我的詢問之前早上有一些資訊可能要更新一下就是說早上因為我們花了一些時間在程序上做意見的交換那我列舉出馬英九前總統任內然後再處理"},{"start":26725.758,"end":26745.252,"text":"國安會的預算解凍的時候有三度都是由葛光月副秘書長、陸小榮副秘書長來出席代理那個時候立法院都准假我早上提的是馬英九前總統的任內那我現在要補充因為中午休息的時間我又去找了比較多的資料其實從過去李登輝總統、陳水扁總統"},{"start":26749.755,"end":26764.751,"text":"馬英九總統到小英總統蔡英文蔡總統共有19次立法院審查預算決算乃至於解凍預算都是由副秘書長來出席"},{"start":26766.773,"end":26771.197,"text":"所以當然如果說秘書長公務時間安排得當當然秘書長可以來參與預算的審查跟討論這個我們當然都至表歡迎而且依法定的義務他能來他就要來但是呢從李登輝陳水扁馬英九到蔡英文總統"},{"start":26787.711,"end":26800.518,"text":"由副秘書長出席各類的預算會議共有19次所以說不要特別對於吳釗燮秘書長今天他因為主席不准假"},{"start":26801.638,"end":26829.003,"text":"然後就戴他帽子 為難他 修理他我覺得這都是一支公允所以我要做這個事實的補充的陳述只是可惜我們的昭緯在講電話沒有聽到我這一段 沒有關係有直播可以回覆可以讓昭緯好好的來詳加去核對吳四堯所說的樣樣相像都是符合事實跟真相好 那進入我的質詢我請兩位複密"},{"start":26839.211,"end":26852.039,"text":"兩位辛苦了審預算要合理的監督要理性的審查如果是針對性報復性那麼癱瘓了其他憲政機關就是涉及踩到憲法的紅線"},{"start":26853.16,"end":26870.44,"text":"所以說行政院已經針對總預算的二砍二山惡動提出了釋憲民進黨團也已經提出了釋憲我們希望憲法法庭能夠給予史上前所未見的二砍二山預算做出一個合一的判準好 我們尊重憲法法庭後續的處理"},{"start":26871.861,"end":26892.593,"text":"那首先呢 我想先就教於這個許富密喔總統昨天在520的演說當中其實是釋出了善意也遞出了橄欖枝他表達主動願意分享國安資訊給在野黨的領袖們換言之 希望能夠透過國安的專報"},{"start":26896.465,"end":26908.575,"text":"很詳實坦率的讓在野黨的領袖知道台灣現在面臨的國安處境是什麼而大家因為資訊對稱了理解了真正了解中國對台灣的處處不友善境外敵對勢力我們需要朝野合力一起來抵禦這是總統的善意我認為也是總統治理國家促進朝野和解的善意"},{"start":26923.803,"end":26941.345,"text":"但是呢在野黨的黃國昌主席也是我們的黨團總召民眾黨他剛剛我看到他下午的回覆他說他當然很正面的肯定總統願意來釋出國安的這些資訊但是他要求要直播啦"},{"start":26943.925,"end":26964.405,"text":"如果說國家安全的資訊分享要直播那麼機密就不再機密了所有要坦率的像在野黨主席所報告的國安重要事項可能透過直播都傳達到境外敵對勢力去了"},{"start":26965.74,"end":26979.035,"text":"當然黃總召他有補充說ok 需要機密的時候可以不直播但是呢朝野領袖在共商國事探討國安資訊的時候至少要直播但是我認為這個會議怎麼切割啊"},{"start":26981.809,"end":27000.108,"text":"如果說在國安專報的會議分享之後在野黨的主席們領袖們要對外去召開記者會我們尊重嘛但是希望他們不要把國安資訊全部都揭露啊中共最高興啊所以說徐富密你認為"},{"start":27001.77,"end":27012.922,"text":"要用直播 什麼都直播 連國安會議都要直播你覺得可行嗎 因為你們是未來規劃這個跟在野黨領袖報告的幕僚單位啊 可行嗎報告委員 我沒有想到這個任務這麼艱鉅你會習慣的坦白說"},{"start":27021.536,"end":27046.807,"text":"如果我想總統應該講的當然我們現在正在規劃應該講的包括你的規劃是不可能有直播嘛對不對國防啦兩岸啦國安局的問題啦滲透啦灰色地帶啦這些事情事實上都牽涉到很難向外公開說明的情況如果有公開說明的情況那其實"},{"start":27048.127,"end":27075.161,"text":"在野黨的委員或者是黨魁們可以直接從媒體上看到不需要專報專報的事情都是一般我們沒辦法對外講的所以特別慎重嘛要特別邀集大家閉門會議嘛我接著再問所以您的意思是你們作為規劃這個像在野黨領袖的國安專報的幕僚機構你們也認為直播反而會讓這個事情破局嘛就搞破壞了嘛"},{"start":27076.181,"end":27101.432,"text":"是沒有辦法把直播規劃進去的嗎我們沒辦法用直播的方式沒辦法也不應該那剛剛汪小林委員在質詢您的時候說你們國安會去開了很多國際的會議他一樣的邏輯要你把所有的國際會議見了什麼人談了什麼事要全部來清清楚楚的白紙黑字寫給所有的國人看"},{"start":27102.432,"end":27124.005,"text":"同樣的邏輯 如果國安會進行的這些非常重要的國際的串聯我們就是想方設法要在中國的處處打壓 盯梢之下去 找出一點點空間可是蔡英文黨的委員要你把這些會議去哪裡出訪 開什麼會 見了什麼人 要全部都揭露的話"},{"start":27125.226,"end":27135.731,"text":"這不是搞破壞嗎 同樣的邏輯那乾脆翁小玲根據黃國昌委員的要求好了以後國安會出去開的任何一個國際會議都要全程直播"},{"start":27136.721,"end":27140.165,"text":"那樣我們就出不去了就出不去了嘛就搞破壞了嘛所以說拜託在野黨的委員國家安全是什麼國家安全就是我們現在面對的處境有多麼的艱難我們面對的敵人是共同的一個就是境外敵對勢力就是中國"},{"start":27159.98,"end":27182.913,"text":"所以當總統這麼努力的就是我覺得真的是總統就是想讓這些黨的領袖知道我們現在面對的困境是什麼希望藉由這個國安專報讓他們可以看到事實然後seeing is believing而且去理解它然後去幫助自己的國家而不是搞破壞去幫助其他人"},{"start":27185.051,"end":27204.149,"text":"如果要求國安專報要直播我覺得這就是搞破局了耶總統遞出了橄欖枝請在野黨的委員不要連橄欖樹都砍了好嗎我真的心很痛耶總統的用心良苦總統的願意資訊分享不是這樣子來被惡搞的"},{"start":27208.771,"end":27225.817,"text":"來我需要一點時間不好意思主席佔用因為前面幾位委員針對預算也佔用了一點時間回到統統府的預算我認為合理的監督預算就是立法院的職責但是如果是報復性而且你看監察院煽動合併影響了97%"},{"start":27228.738,"end":27231.24,"text":"行政院煽動合併影響了83%、84%的預算而總統府也前所未見煽動合併刪減凍結了共74%這完全就違反了大法官"},{"start":27245.513,"end":27264.85,"text":"391520號的解釋因為你利用預算的審查去讓其他的憲法機關沒有辦法擅盡他們的憲政忠誠義務但非常遺憾就是我們現在面對的總統府今天很辛苦我第一次看到你們的解動報告厚厚的寫著55頁下一頁下一頁"},{"start":27271.087,"end":27298.66,"text":"這是前所未見的過去15年來不論藍綠誰執政不論立法院誰當家過去15年來平均凍結預算因為我們今天在解凍預算我就整理凍結預算平均凍結預算過去15年每年平均凍396萬今年凍了多少2.14億嘛對不對何富密所以今年的凍結是過去的54倍這前所未見嘛對不對何富密好下一頁"},{"start":27300.276,"end":27322.015,"text":"而凍結當中又鎖定業務費業務費被凍了96%而且設下前所未有的解凍門檻就是你們先執行了30%然後呢 再去申請解凍還要經過立法院院會的同意這也是前所未有的解凍門檻嘛對不對 何副秘好 那在下一頁"},{"start":27325.138,"end":27342.961,"text":"而且呢 預算是不能留用的 不能挖東牆補西牆所以你們現在是不是只剩下九千一百七十六萬左右 是不是 能撐到年底嗎就是總體預算被煽動之後 能夠用的只有九千多萬"},{"start":27343.522,"end":27358.613,"text":"能撐到年底嗎我們現在很緊張也很痛苦剛剛有特別講到阿兵哥的部分那也不可能天天吃沙拉嘛我們就來講阿兵哥這一條好了你們被凍結的是廚師費嘛是憲兵的伙食費"},{"start":27359.654,"end":27380.246,"text":"是保留的嘛 國防部的嘛那是兩邊嘛 國防部編有限兵的伙食費但是編在總統府的是這個膳食費是廚師的費用換言之沒有廚師了誰煮飯給阿兵哥是要叫阿兵哥叫Uber嗎剛剛翁委員居然讓我聽到他說阿兵哥沒有廚師煮飯去叫Uber哇"},{"start":27383.649,"end":27400.029,"text":"有可能總統府的憲兵叫Uber嗎?四邀委員我跟您報告因為是元首的維安是啊所以天天吃外食那個一定會出事安全的疑慮食品衛生安全的疑慮這是基本的ABC嘛委員專業 謝謝"},{"start":27401.01,"end":27412.339,"text":"所以說 伙食費是編在國防部 伙食費就算有可是你廚師被砍掉了就像在野黨的委員一樣在司法法治委員會砍掉了監察院97%的業務費 包括他的油錢所以監察院是有司機的可是他是剛好油錢沒了"},{"start":27420.984,"end":27434.77,"text":"被砍掉了所以空有司機沒有油錢現在監委如果要用司機去查案妨礙要自己出油錢同樣的道理這實在是太可異了下一頁報復性的刪減總統的法定義務會受到很多的影響下一頁"},{"start":27443.27,"end":27449.297,"text":"總統府要進入黑暗的時代了嗎總統府的夜間電費已經暫停了水電費是不是剩下65萬可以用是的怎麼撐到年底在兩個禮拜就沒有錢繳水電費了是前所未見下一頁"},{"start":27460.108,"end":27478.434,"text":"總統的重要慶典的舉辦費剩下453萬很難再辦大規模的重要慶典了 對不對下一頁我知道總統不是總統我把那個那個召集人說成總統那個您站起來我會加快是資訊服務費我們"},{"start":27480.374,"end":27495.237,"text":"113年每個月平均有700萬次的駭客攻擊而且全年遭受這個DDoS的重大攻擊10次以上現在呢資安費用只砍到只有1627萬可以用喔可以撐到年底嗎資安會漏洞門戶大開嗎這是中國最高興的現在趕快來駭客攻擊了來最後下面一樣喔總統府是1919年蓋的"},{"start":27509.059,"end":27515.909,"text":"古蹟啊 國定古蹟啊依照文資法 古蹟要定期的修繕維護但是你們的修繕維護的房屋建築費用只剩下1840萬可以撐到年底嗎"},{"start":27525.242,"end":27541.09,"text":"治療委員是文化的專業我們現在都很辛苦而且他需要符合文資法所以執行起來真的很困難不要讓總統府帶頭違反文資法因為呢房屋修繕養護費被刪5%動70%所以沒有辦法支用總統府這個文化資產不論誰當選總統未來也有可能吳宗憲在裡面工作"},{"start":27553.112,"end":27559.222,"text":"擔任重要的職務羅志強就曾經在這一棟國定古蹟總統府裡面任職服務過"},{"start":27560.7,"end":27584.129,"text":"文化資產保存法我來自文化界不要讓總統府沒有預算去修復維護文化資產我後面還很多頁沒有辦法來論述我希望在野黨的委員趕快把預算解凍總統府是國家的總統府不是賴清德的總統府是全民的總統府我們一起來為預算努力謝謝"},{"start":27585.109,"end":27586.63,"text":"馬英九時代的國安會秘書長他身邊的人沒有涉及共敵案"},{"start":27605.496,"end":27622.851,"text":"所以這個是我們認為還是有所差別的報告召委現在的國安會不是共諜那個是他外交部的時候好不好好 謝謝啦讓我把話不要插我們的話好 讓我把話講完所以說我要說明嘛因為你對我這個有質疑嘛那我的說明就是"},{"start":27625.133,"end":27648.778,"text":"對 他在其他時候但他身邊的重要人員甚至排行程的人員他有涉及共諜案那這個在過往馬英九時代並沒有發生但剛吳委員所提出來馬英九時代那些副秘書長來的次數這個我都沒有意見我都予以認同但是畢竟現在跟以前的狀況不太一樣所以我們才希望秘書長能夠到並不是找他麻煩這邊跟吳委員好 沒關係"},{"start":27655.503,"end":27669.498,"text":"但是他們身邊的人都沒有涉及共諜案我想說我的重點還是劃在他身邊的重要人員有沒有涉及共諜案因為國安會是掌握國家安全非常重要的單位"},{"start":27671.32,"end":27690.125,"text":"我們希望我們很慎重的面對這個事我們要替國人監督好這件事這就是為什麼我希望他要來的原因並不是說像你大家說的什麼我把他扣帽子是沒有啦那請大家能夠了解一下那這個謝謝吳委員提供給我的資料那接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":27697.983,"end":27724.039,"text":"謝謝召委好像現在在4號法治委員會開始執行之前都要先來一段程序上面的發言我先確認一下現在國安會秘書長還是拒絕過來是不是是 跟黃委員報告對他有沒有理由目前應該是從早上到現在為止兩位秘書長都沒有給我一通電話OK"},{"start":27726.248,"end":27731.354,"text":"剛剛啊 有委員在上面程序發言的時候啊 細數了從陳說扁馬英九到蔡英文所以國安會啊 之前解凍的時候 副秘書長來就可以了召委你知不知道 剛點名到的那三位總統有哪一個總統"},{"start":27750.222,"end":27769.726,"text":"用的國安會秘書長是把共諜帶到我們府院黨的高層有這樣的例子嗎沒有 所以我剛剛有講說過去的沒有涉法我每一次在這邊質詢的時候其實我都是針對行政部門我不太想針對其他的委員其他的委員在這邊進行不實的政治攻擊"},{"start":27775.852,"end":27804.327,"text":"讓人覺得啊 讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾但是用委員會啊珍貴的質詢時間來做這樣子的事情啊我只能夠說啊 我只能夠說非常非常的遺憾一個立法委員連自己基本的職責是什麼都搞不清楚然後利用站在這一邊質詢的時間對其他的委員發動不實的抹黑攻擊啊"},{"start":27805.585,"end":27820.591,"text":"讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾今天國安會的秘書長還是沒有來嘛好來 總統府的秘書長你有請 你有准假嗎總統府秘書長我有准假好來請 我們總統府副秘書長委員好副秘書長好喔說到"},{"start":27832.891,"end":27861.221,"text":"滲透到我們總統府裡面去全體國人都很關心我相信您今天來這邊一定有所準備其中賴清德副總統辦公室的姿意2023年8月的時候他還有參與有關於副巴拉圭整個行程的事情現在這位吳尚宇被羈押了"},{"start":27862.728,"end":27872.274,"text":"我要問的第一個問題是請問這位吳尚宇到總統府或者是到副總統辦公室任職的時候有沒有辦理特殊查核"},{"start":27874.137,"end":27895.588,"text":"據我所知一定要有做一些身家的調查不好意思啊我們在立法院就談法律啦什麼是身家調查我聽不懂啊現在又不是回到以前警總的時代他有沒有辦特殊查核請允許我更精準的回應當時是沒有的他不用辦特殊查核嗎"},{"start":27896.548,"end":27905.748,"text":"各位委員報告一下因為吳尚宇是聘用之一那聘用之一的話他是一般查核只查雙重國籍跟刑事之一您覺得這樣子的查核密度夠嗎來請副秘書長"},{"start":27911.088,"end":27934.535,"text":"呃 認為個人認為這是不夠的不夠的嘛那這個制度改革需要多久目前也有聽到委員黃國昌委員您的一些建議跟想法這些建議非常好那我們現在已經要確定要擴大這個場需要多久現在已經在走行政院會選對所以需要多久還不知道這國家安全知識體大"},{"start":27936.468,"end":27960.328,"text":"怎麼會拖這麼久呢這不是天大地大的事嗎怎麼行政效率這麼差還需要多久這個事情爆發到現在多久啦還在跑行政流程喔國家安全不是很重要嗎用這麼輕忽的態度這麼緩慢的流程在處理國家安全的議題適合嗎"},{"start":27964.195,"end":27985.151,"text":"跟委員報告的確我們法律一定要法治就如同您在當老師的時候這個程序非常重要法治非常重要是沒錯所以現在不僅僅我們也開始做我只問一個簡單的問題還需要多久所以還需要多久不知道絕對禁訴並且在會禁訴嗎好我們拭目以待看什麼時候禁訴請問吳尚宇什麼時候從總統府離職的"},{"start":27991.284,"end":28018.795,"text":"這個部分我精準一點的回答是今年的2月19號今年的2月19號他為什麼離職?當時候說好像自行辭職那他的原因是說要回家照顧家人的樣子他2月19號是自行辭職的喔?是他是自行辭職還是被辭職?自行辭職因為他非常的神準啊是邱嗣源、黃曲榮收押進建的時候同案的啦"},{"start":28020.302,"end":28047.112,"text":"他馬上就辭啦就讓他覺得很奇怪嘛這個時間點啊巧合到讓人不可置信啊兩個同案的被告被收押現在總統府的說法是他自刑請辭不是被辭職嗎是嗎委員我可以表達一下我的意見跟觀察沒有沒有我現在只問事實的問題啦如果他是共諜就要創造最大的殺傷力嗎所以他在幹什麼"},{"start":28048.12,"end":28072.745,"text":"他在幹什麼如果是共諜的話一定要引爆最大的輿論媒體爆破力所以很明顯的他在幹這些事啊那這些事情他一定要有法律最嚴格的對待那個副秘書長你要發表你的意見你隨時開記者會啊請你不要占用我質詢的時間所以副秘書長一到你的意見啊這個吳尚宇很可惡啊"},{"start":28076.4,"end":28102.068,"text":"他要發揮最大的爆炸力所以在2月19號辭職是這樣嗎我現在有一點聽不太懂這是我個人的見解沒有關係我尊重你個人的見解他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職兩年又五個月兩年又五個月潛伏這麼久總統府都沒有發現任何異樣"},{"start":28104.005,"end":28121.265,"text":"我想全世界的這些espionage都一樣啦這些都一樣啦沒有關係啦我只有問你客觀的事實啦就是兩年五個月總統府都沒有發現一樣要離職也是他自己離職我想各個國家都面臨一模一樣的挑戰是 請你回答問題就好了啦"},{"start":28122.446,"end":28140.176,"text":"所以我再確定一次嘛潛伏了兩年五個月總統府都不知道即使到2月19號也是他要自行離職客觀事實是不是這樣我們在其他國家還有潛伏更久的我們都很氣這個沒有關係啦我說你要援引其他國家當例子那個是你的自由啦"},{"start":28140.896,"end":28159.634,"text":"你去開記者會講就好了我在這邊都只問客觀的事情是客觀的事情是潛伏了兩年五個月都沒有發現2月19號他是自行辭職不是被辭職的是不是這樣是的是這樣嘛好沒有關係因為這個事情喔我其實在這個委員會我也公開講過我公開告發了"},{"start":28162.406,"end":28177.124,"text":"我公開告發了接下來的事情就交給台北地檢署去處理我今天要質詢的第二個議題是嚴肅的議題我們派了一個張教授跑去英國擔任公使"},{"start":28178.157,"end":28196.05,"text":"你們在派那個公子以前啊有沒有做有關於相關相關人事的查核委員我真的很抱歉喔因為這不是我的業務我可能沒辦法回應那所以這是誰的業務我這個應該是外交部沒有啊這個林佳龍說這是總統任命的啊"},{"start":28196.91,"end":28213.237,"text":"這是總統的權責啊我們都有相對應的分工但是這個業務是我沒有辦法精準的回應您那今天總統府有人有辦法回應這件事嗎這個部分還是要有外交部會這個人事作業沒有經過總統府一局的部分再拜託一下"},{"start":28214.457,"end":28242.072,"text":"奇怪 複密你對總統府的職長好像不是很清楚耶任命總統令出來不就是掛賴總統的名字嗎怎麼你當複密對自己總統府的業務職長這麼陌生之前啦人事令出來以前就已經出來質疑啦學歷造假的人派去英國當公使是要丟台灣的臉嗎"},{"start":28244.215,"end":28272.686,"text":"是在丟台灣的臉嗎報告委員那個江公使的部分他是用特任公使的身份來任命的所以外交部在這個地方因為他是屬於政務官那依照任用法的規定他不屬於特殊查核的部分但是必要的查核還有剛剛講到一般的查核外交部事先都沒有我只是問一個最簡單的問題"},{"start":28274.407,"end":28281.076,"text":"這個是牽涉到台灣國家國格的問題啊我們派一個學歷造假的人去英國當公使適合嗎"},{"start":28282.943,"end":28307.569,"text":"你覺得適合嗎報告委員這件事情科技部國科會有發布新聞稿說明說明什麼說明他學歷是真的他說明是他在登記上跟過去跟他的證書上是有錯誤但是如果從學生寫假的東西說是有錯誤這會不會太可笑啊他自己念啊他自己有沒有念法學院他自己不知道"},{"start":28310.659,"end":28337.52,"text":"他是當事人本人耶那個沒有事實判斷的問題耶他在哪一個學院拿到博士學位他自己不知道這個部分我們尊重這個國科會對外的說明啊對啊 國科會對外的說明就上面寫的東西是假的啊現在我問你的是國家基本立場的問題啊學歷造假還派去英國當公使那不丟人現眼嗎"},{"start":28340.373,"end":28368.446,"text":"以後我們還要不要跟英國促進學術交流全科技 文化 教育等等的協議派一個學歷造假的人代表台灣台灣是沒人喔委員 這個部分我把意見帶回一定給你一個很快速給你一個交代好不好我直接啊是複密是我講話下來有憑有據我一頁頁帶給你看看不下去啦"},{"start":28369.861,"end":28397.158,"text":"我這兩天接到的檢舉多了他去跟科技部過去的科技部現在的國科會申請計畫的時候他說他個人資料表的主要學歷計畫主持人不願意公開這很奇怪我很少看到大學的教授跟國科會跟科技部申請計畫我作為一個大學的教授我主要學歷我不願意公開"},{"start":28399.785,"end":28428.147,"text":"這是怎麼回事啊結果他的畢業證書上面明明寫的他是社會科學與健康學院這是他的畢業證書畢業證書寫社會科學與健康學院來看一下他給科技部的個人資料表寫什麼來請複密仔細看南衛學門系所法學院上面就寫法學院"},{"start":28429.652,"end":28452.046,"text":"這個資料是不是偽造變造的總統府我相信去找國科會來一翻兩瞪眼白紙黑字他明明就不是法學院畢業的在學歷上面寫法學院畢業的就好像我台大法律系畢業的我可以在我學歷上面登載說我是台大醫學系畢業的嗎"},{"start":28454.073,"end":28473.327,"text":"這怎麼會用錯誤兩個字來形容這根本是造假這是偽造文書啊我當初還是想說Dohan Law SchoolDohan大學是不是沒有Law School我要特別上網去查有Law School但他念的就不是Law School啊"},{"start":28475.193,"end":28498.266,"text":"這樣學歷造假的人 派去英國當公使丟國家的臉啊報告委員 他送過來的資料 給我們的資料上面不是寫法學對嘛 現在問題就來了嘛現在你應該緊鄰大作啊他為什麼給總統府講一套 給國科會講另外一套是不是被人家揭發了以後 發現別康了趕快更改上面學歷的記載 是這樣嗎"},{"start":28500.567,"end":28528.338,"text":"這個部分國科會的新聞稿也有說明他當初寫資料後來經過查證之後有請他做個人的更正的部分所以現在問題就來了嘛我把全責跟你講清楚啦國科會的事情請你放心我一定會去國科會追到底當初在學倫大會上面怎麼放水的整個過程我大概都掌握了我一定跟國科會追究到底但問題是什麼"},{"start":28530.214,"end":28557.402,"text":"從你們任命公使之前客觀的資訊清楚的顯示他就是學歷造假沒什麼好說的不是法學院畢業說是法學院畢業這不是造假什麼是造假如果這樣的人可以當英國公使那以後全台灣的學子在履歷表上面愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫因為我們有個最好的榜樣啦造假都可以當公使"},{"start":28560.862,"end":28564.683,"text":"這不是要台灣的臉丟到英國去了嗎我有說錯嗎今天複密 大意把我的意見帶回去 就請帶回去我靜觀 我靜觀這件事情接下來要怎麼發展還是說 錯了 不願意認錯總統的派令都出來了 出去就出去了"},{"start":28590.35,"end":28616.845,"text":"來 請鳳梨講話 因為你舉手沒有話想講 請非常謝謝委員我想總統不可能管到整個台灣沒錯嘛 所以我才說你們人事作業是怎麼做的嘛所以他會有分工嘛是 社交部 科技部 國科會那現在我們一定會去要求我們一定會去因為畢竟上面掛的是總統府沒錯 你說到重點了所以這個部分我一定把你的意見帶回去該怎麼辦就怎麼辦好 很好謝謝拭目以待 好 謝謝"},{"start":28620.984,"end":28640.676,"text":"好謝謝 那我們下一位請羅志強委員發言有請總統府何富密署長"},{"start":28649.273,"end":28664.482,"text":"首先第一個我當然還是先要表達一下今天兩位秘書長沒有來我的看法那我還是覺得是首先第一天我今天本來聽說以為是你們都不到那我就覺得事情蠻大條但還好你有來啦 還好你有來但是我覺得"},{"start":28665.402,"end":28690.175,"text":"昨天我們賴清德總統才說要對話嘛那事實上加上我也看你們的報告剛剛你的詢答也把今天解凍案的一些各項問題講得非常嚴重啊我個人衷心的建議啦就是說像既然認為這麼嚴重的事情而預算的一個所謂的決定權也不是副秘書長是秘書長的一個權限這種情況之下當然還是希望齁這個首長能夠到包括國安會包括"},{"start":28691.435,"end":28709.96,"text":"總統府的秘書長但是我還是特別提一下因為至少總統府的秘書長有跟我們的主席請假那這一點的話主席也准假所以在程序上嚴格來講我覺得沒有什麼太大的問題所以我們就可以開始繼續我們今天的一些詢問首先我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長就是"},{"start":28712.34,"end":28735.625,"text":"總統的520的獎稿是哪個單位府內哪個單位做幕僚作業的我們的公共事務室下面的有幾個單位還有這個他們有一些那個叫做文稿小組差不多啦但是文稿小組的話是哪位副秘書長督導的是我們的張敦涵所以不是你的督導職務嗎因為以他為主"},{"start":28738.646,"end":28766.958,"text":"那我先跟何富密講 因為我也當過總統府副秘書長以前在我的任內的話 基本上文稿小組是我在督導的所以520的講稿基本上就是我這邊要負責彙整整合然後做擬稿跟定稿那我今天發現一件事情 我想請教我們副秘書長你知道我們歷來包括從陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文到賴清德的520講稿哪一位總統520講稿裡面竟然沒有出現兩岸"},{"start":28769.107,"end":28772.497,"text":"哪一位總統?您知道嗎?就是賴清德總統"},{"start":28776.434,"end":28798.42,"text":"其他的總統都會提到兩岸包括賴清哲總統就職的時候也有特別提到兩岸提到中國的滲透跟威脅那我不知道為什麼今年的520講稿會破歷史之記錄在520講稿裡面是不放兩岸這一塊有什麼樣特殊的原因讓總統府有這樣的考量嗎這個部分我可能沒辦法"},{"start":28799.605,"end":28826.141,"text":"做這樣子的回應因為你不是文稿小組的那個督導的副秘書長但是我先講一件事情這件事情我覺得傳遞一個坦白講對總統不是很恰當的訊息總統對外釋出一個不是很恰當的訊息那就變成是有幾種解讀方式嘛一個是總統認為兩岸他做得太好好到沒話說所以不用說了別的總統都還要稍微提一下兩岸"},{"start":28827.341,"end":28854.392,"text":"結果我做得太棒了 我無話可說是這樣的意思嗎您覺得 您當他幕僚也當了一年多了嘛 對不對一年嘛 一天我覺得這個部分還是要由委員以及全國的民眾來看待對 因為這個部分我直接回答說好也不是 說不好也不是所以我沒辦法給一個直接的回應我瞭解 你的回答當然要保守一點你做幕僚你要保守一點"},{"start":28854.952,"end":28868.915,"text":"可是我要講 你一定是釋出一個非常不尋常的一個訊息出去嘛你要嘛就是說 你今天總統真的兩岸關係做不好你覺得講了讓大家覺得 你覺得沒有東西可以跟大家交代再不然你就覺得做得太好 對不對 我不需要講"},{"start":28869.926,"end":28897.597,"text":"那另外一個就是說也有人認為說今天難道是受到美方的壓力嗎因為兩岸關係趙總統去年跟最近的說法其實都蠻強硬的嘛這一點沒錯嘛都比較強硬嘛那今年如果520裡面他沒有一點強硬的兩岸關係的說法那跟他以前的調性不合的話那就變得好像外界覺得翻車還是打臉可是他又沒有辦法今天講的所謂的很強硬那可能有一些外部壓力我覺得為什麼剛剛特別強調"},{"start":28900.078,"end":28928.882,"text":"當然你不能講但是外界自然而然對於總統這次的520講稿就有很多很多的解讀嘛就非常特殊的一點像我們在彙整講稿的時候一定是兩岸國防外交經濟教育文化各個面向環保面向我們就可能會認為說哪些東西要把它列進去但是有一樣東西兩岸國防外交因為總統的所謂的核心職能這三塊幾乎沒有一個總統會在520講稿裡面把它落掉的"},{"start":28929.542,"end":28954.728,"text":"那我到現在為止是不能理解啦不能理解為什麼總統在這次520講稿裡面會把兩岸這塊落掉那也麻煩你轉告另外一位張副秘書長或是總府發言人們能不能跟他示意一下為什麼今天要破天荒核心職務竟然少一塊那你不能跟我講那個二缺一總統啊就只剩下兩塊而已啊這是第一個啦那第二個我也想要請教一下那個副秘書長坦白講我覺得"},{"start":28956.408,"end":28972.984,"text":"我蠻覺得羨慕我們賴清德總統賴清德總統最近講了一段話我真的身為也當過總務府的幕僚我看的是下巴掉下來了請問是誰定位那個中國大陸是境外敵對勢力誰定位的"},{"start":28975.711,"end":28996.984,"text":"我想這個部分要問一下我們的國防部他們國安部第一個公開站出來定位 當領導人的就是賴清德總統他直接說境外敵對勢力就是中共我想常常聽委員在質詢的時候我們也是這樣定位的啊我跟你講公開啦 直接定位的賴清德總統是第一人"},{"start":28997.95,"end":29010.993,"text":"那現在問題來了齁已經定位對岸是境外敵對勢力我真的不太懂那個邏輯啦為什麼說大陸是大公司我們是小公司要來併購台灣要提條件我要問的第一個問題齁大陸併台灣是有條件可以講可以跟境外敵對勢力來談條件的嗎請問一下副秘書長要談什麼條件我們才願意跟他談啊到底大陸要提什麼條件願意跟他談啊"},{"start":29027.895,"end":29053.067,"text":"我想這個整個裡面的那個interview那個專訪裡面有四個字一定要看到叫做這不行啊這不行啊這不行啊他全面舉那個例子我告訴你我也有看啦我也有看啦我告訴你我跟你講我也有看啦大家都有嘛我也有看啦他就是說要尊重中華民國存在的事實不是我跟你講"},{"start":29053.507,"end":29068.455,"text":"你所謂這不行 你前面舉的那個例子加一句這不行 我跟你講 外面的解讀也是很多啦第一個就講說 意思說你沒有提條件就不行啊那你就跟我講說對方要提條件 我直接跟你說啦沒有任何條件可談 你認同嗎"},{"start":29070.302,"end":29099.543,"text":"副市長認不認同其實賴總統我跟境外敵對勢力我有什麼東西可以談你都說他是境外敵對勢力是敵人了敵人要併你請問到底有什麼可談的啊我想他只是一個比喻那他沒有要去併我跟副秘書長講我抱歉因為也同樣你說文稿不是你負責那我就要苛責那位張副秘書長了本來就是啊總統講這樣的話坦白講我覺得是對總統的職位跟高度是有傷害的"},{"start":29100.143,"end":29108.813,"text":"那今天作為總統的幕僚單位你讓總統有這樣的一個表現一個狀況更何況我跟你講就我所知那個節目是直播嗎"},{"start":29110.991,"end":29136.093,"text":"這個節目原則上全面的沒有剪接沒有剪接啊原汁原味那我告訴你喔有沒有剪接是一回事啦他既然不是直播的節目你做一個幕僚單位也許總統是即興為之難道你不需要看一下嗎做幕僚單位有沒有總統interview完之後把那個節目再看一遍因為他還沒播嘛沒錯吧有沒有看一遍"},{"start":29137.768,"end":29156.271,"text":"據我的了解應該是有啦對當然要看啊看完以後沒有一個幕僚沒有一個幕僚覺得總統講這樣不對一個幕僚都沒有嗎你有沒有看我是後來才看到但是允許我15秒鐘一 主權絕對不是商品啦"},{"start":29156.86,"end":29181.881,"text":"二 我覺得賴總統對於主權的堅持是大家有目共睹的第三個部分這個反規裡面它只是一個比喻但是更多的部分在論述台灣主權的重要性以及中華民國的純正不可侵犯以及尊重國民那我想 而且最後一個部分就是其實我們這一次的專訪我們在日本打開市場了"},{"start":29182.481,"end":29211.411,"text":"那用這樣子的比喻更多有商業思維的朋友也會更認同我們我們當初的起心動念是這樣子當然委員的指教我都聽下來我也記錄下來其實我覺得你三點講得很好啊謝謝非常好啊尤其第一點可是我好怕你會突然再問我齁可以認識這麼久齁你都OK的我知道啦我跟你講你剛剛講第一個就是重點嘛主權不是商品是的所以那結合第三點就是你的比喻你說這只是個比喻你把"},{"start":29212.111,"end":29225.487,"text":"主權比喻為商品 坦白講我覺得 我先不講賴清德總統啦仍有失言 比喻不當 也是有可能可是幕僚的部分 更何況我還是講那個節目又不是直播"},{"start":29226.536,"end":29245.375,"text":"我真的覺得你如果幕僚稍微有點敏感度在事後看了以後應該也要點出這件事情啊所以這一點是我還是覺得說幕僚工作還是要做好那最後我要特別講就是說基本上賴清德總統我覺得那個朝野的對話我很支持但是呢"},{"start":29246.964,"end":29270.865,"text":"為什麼要加一個國安的限制啊我們中華民國草野之間因為重視當然重視那你跟我講經濟不重視還是說外交不重視還是說今天農業不重視環境不重視你是學長其實國安裡面都有包含啦那我跟你講你就針對台灣的政經情勢做大家一個相互溝通因為重視所以因為太重視所以我們張開雙手我還是那句話啦"},{"start":29273.547,"end":29284.043,"text":"既然要朝野對話就不要給自己框一個框框啊因為總統是一個有高度的職務除非你不要嘛你不要是一回事那是一個政治選擇但你要的時候就大家覺得說"},{"start":29285.031,"end":29302.223,"text":"感覺我覺得格局跟氣度還可以再恢弘一點點雙手都要張開來去跟大家對話協商雙手張開我就說一點點只有國安這一塊用國安來做的話才是真正的規格啊好啦我跟你講我要告訴你什麼叫國政經緯萬端不要什麼都冠國安兩個字啦"},{"start":29310.348,"end":29325.978,"text":"國安當然是一個範疇一個國安的專業範疇領域也有他的一個專業定義範圍那你什麼都無限上綱也不一定是一件好事這是我最後忠心的建議啦所以如果說真的朝野對話真的不用去框現什麼樣的框架謝謝你感謝 謝謝這樣齁 那個我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":29701.766,"end":29729.772,"text":"好 那現在我們請鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員"},{"start":29731.642,"end":29744.11,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":29758.906,"end":29779.684,"text":"那委員審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆現在進行議程所列預算解凍案處理前請議事人員並宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案請宣讀報告事項國家安全會議函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減鬆稅出"},{"start":29782.066,"end":29796.919,"text":"第一款第二項決議依政務人員待遇預算凍結10萬元書面報告請查照案討論四項第一案之第五案為依總統府函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送決議依預算凍結專案報告請查照案二減送新增決議依業務費預算凍結報告請查照案三"},{"start":29803.764,"end":29826.619,"text":"減送新增決議20及23預算凍結專案報告請查照案減送新增決議26預算凍結專案報告請查照案減送新增決議48預算凍結專案報告請查照案第六案至第八案為國家安全會議含為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第一款第二項業務費預算凍結30%專案報告請查照案減送稅出第一款第二項"},{"start":29834.084,"end":29838.629,"text":"諮詢研究業務預算凍結200萬元書面報告請查找案8.減送稅出第一款第二項諮詢研究業務中業務費預算凍結100萬元專案報告請查找案宣讀完畢"},{"start":29853.225,"end":29869.624,"text":"本次議程所列預算解凍案均已宣讀完畢現在進行處理一例我們照議程所列順序先處理報告事項議程報告事項有關國家安全會議一四年度預算解凍書面報告案"},{"start":29870.385,"end":29892.995,"text":"剛已經列入議程提出書面報告並經宣讀做如下決議准予備查提報院會那請問各位有無異議就國安會的部分有異議好那有異議的話因為有委員提出異議那能有意見所以我們就另定其繼續處理等一下等一下第幾案"},{"start":29894.291,"end":29915.837,"text":"現在不是要進入嗎報告事項有異議就另定期處理好那接著報告事項處理完畢繼續進行討論事項我們按機關別先進行總統府預算解凍案部分是不是稍微緩一下等副秘書長進來等一下主席"},{"start":29918.11,"end":29927.26,"text":"先進行總統府的預算解凍案部分等一下主席我會議詢問一下好嗎不好意思因為剛剛在宣讀完的是報告事項嘛"},{"start":29928.413,"end":29957.272,"text":"那報告事項照理講這個當初審查預算的是說政務人員待遇預算凍結十萬元的書面報告只要送書面報告就可以解凍了這應該是當初這個預算案委員會做成的決議是不是那我先詢問完沒關係那為什麼這個這一類的因為他並不是審查同意厚實的凍支他是送來報告書面報告就可以凍支的這個類型"},{"start":29958.953,"end":29981.27,"text":"那為什麼這個可以有意義就這個跟當初我們做成的決議不一樣喔等一下的討論案如果說確實是有意義可以一案一案討論第一個我要爭執的是說這明明就是不能夠在這裡有意義的這個案因為是送來書面報告就可以解凍第一案是這樣所以剛剛這個案子應該是通過的我說明一下"},{"start":29982.771,"end":30011.431,"text":"那依照本委員會的往例那報告事項在此部分如果委員有異議的話那依照以前往例都是繼續處理這個部分我有先跟委員會確認過是嗎 是這樣嗎我以前在交易文化委員會從來沒有這樣過要說明一下嗎我們就過往的通案是不是說明一下 那沒關係那如果這樣的話那剛剛有異議的委員要說明一下他的理由啊因為我們要報答我們三位委員耶我們三位委員耶"},{"start":30013.464,"end":30027.534,"text":"這個主席要尊重一下怎麼說有意義啊你也不問一下就直接這樣子我們是令定期處理我們不會就不處理他這個案子第一個這一類就是送來書面報告就可以動之的這個所有的委員會都是這樣"},{"start":30029.135,"end":30054.848,"text":"因為剛剛有委員有意見那有意見不用說一下嗎國安會能夠趕快跟有意見的委員溝通一下那我們另定期就可以趕快處理這件事情那因為我這個東西我有先跟委員會確認一下那本委員會往例也都是如此處理我是要嚴正的抗議委員會我審預算十年在立法院"},{"start":30056.329,"end":30067.662,"text":"這種書面報告來送來就可以動之它不是審查後死的動之耶它是送來就可以動之這一類怎麼還可以有意義來把它擋下來呢?委員會說明一下啊有這樣嗎?誰告訴你可以這樣?"},{"start":30075.41,"end":30093.842,"text":"國安會這個案子我理解的沒有錯嘛是送書面報告就可動之嘛你後面的審查案委員有意見都沒有問題這是程序的問題這一類等一下翁委員對於其他的案子你有問題你可以保留我們可以討論可是就是這一案它不行啊"},{"start":30096.331,"end":30123.041,"text":"就是不行啊 這個是有問題的就是分委會確定有這個慣例啦什麼時候的慣例 找出來因為我真的沒有碰過啦 審查委員是要補充什麼來 請問委員說像審查案始得動 都可以表達意見可是這一案就是不行啊我的那個審犯會委員是很有審查預算經驗的培餘也是意見多 提書面報告後 始得動之就是送來 送答就可以動之啦這一類真的是這樣啦就寫經同意"},{"start":30123.926,"end":30130.975,"text":"對啊 這個是送來就可以動之的它不是經同意後使的動之而且它也不是審查案"},{"start":30133.42,"end":30155.988,"text":"張偉我說真的你後面的案子有意見真的可以一案一案我們就坐在這裡可以來討論我們相信大家都願意理性對話可是這個案類就不是啊他為什麼是報告事項他不是討論事項就是因為他送來報告就可以動之了這基本開會的ABC審查預算的ABC啊方慧文我說的沒錯吧"},{"start":30157.665,"end":30170.371,"text":"那在場所有的文官大家都點頭啊從以前你們當總統府國安會的秘書應該是幕僚這麼久了應該就是這樣啊他之所以是報告事項就是送來書面報告就可以動之的"},{"start":30172.199,"end":30183.352,"text":"可以就是可以 不可以就是不可以啊我們不能這樣子做錯誤的會議的才是等一下的討論事項 任何一個議案有意見都可以再保留"},{"start":30190.928,"end":30194.311,"text":"這就是最大的差別 它是報告事項而不是討論事項啊"},{"start":30207.017,"end":30225.423,"text":"主席真的啦對就是對不對就是不對啦這個會議的ABC基本的資料謝謝大家願意理性討論啦但是這個程序上不正確就是不正確我一定要提出來我要講一下就是這個解凍書面報告就是檢送解凍書面報告"},{"start":30227.243,"end":30232.408,"text":"書面報告如果說他今天只寫一個字他也當成是書面報告我們也要同意嗎所以剛剛吳士堯所說的那個只要送書面報告就一定要解凍我覺得這是兩回事還是要看書面報告的內容更何況今天國安會秘書長他應該要來做報告為什麼政務人員的部分他們要聘請諮詢委員"},{"start":30255.627,"end":30258.89,"text":"為什麼要比以前要拼這麼多然後書面報告裡面也沒有講清楚就是把條文抄一抄所以這樣的書面報告我們會認為它是一個合格的書面報告嗎包含它今天其他的所有後面的案子也是一樣所以就"},{"start":30274.413,"end":30294.649,"text":"講的所謂的這個送書面報告之後立刻就可以解凍我覺得這個部分基本上並不合理而且就內容的部分就像我講的嘛你書面報告他只送一個字解凍或兩個字那是不是也是難道就要這樣做嗎"},{"start":30301.015,"end":30312.481,"text":"好看起來主席還在跟相關的幕僚確認喔但是我想要提醒歐委員請你看一下如果你當時加價寫的話他就不應該他就不應該放在報告事項裡頭他就應該放在討論事項而且他這個報告也不是只有像您所指控的寫一個字他寫了這麼多報告內容主席你說的是有前例不是有慣例"},{"start":30328.905,"end":30333.629,"text":"過去有權利 就這一屆有權利但是以前沒有這樣 從來沒有這樣過有權利 但是他不是慣例慣例是報告事項沒有說有意義這就是為什麼他區分報告事項跟討論事項"},{"start":30346.459,"end":30348.12,"text":"現在這邊我看到了在113年12月30號星期一的會議的當時的報告事項會議紀錄也是一樣同樣的也是就不予被查因為委員有異議所以就不予被查"},{"start":30361.724,"end":30383.446,"text":"然後呢而且也會說定期繼續處理當時出席的委員也有吳思瑤的審發會你們都在這就是我說有潛力嘛就這一屆的時候有過嘛有潛力而已因為我們有提出意義啊所以沒關係如果歐委員你要用所謂的潛力來把它變成是一個慣例或通例的話那個陳委員先停一下"},{"start":30384.347,"end":30398.163,"text":"所以我的意思是這樣我們有潛力表示這麼做沒有違法但是我覺得有一個兩全其美的方式大家先溝通好不好你要發言還是先溝通不是不行這麼做"},{"start":30403.305,"end":30421.964,"text":"首先第一個我覺得既然有潛力當然大家對於執行的方式哪個比較恰當有不同的意見但我也認為基本上報告事項跟討論事項當中我覺得我們還是把重心放在討論事項所以報告事項這個部分我認為本席覺得說可以遵以查照"},{"start":30422.685,"end":30443.464,"text":"那翁委員 所以我就很簡單嘛 就有沒有異議嘛因為這就是正常程序啊 不要說這是正常程序我要講這個之前本來就有潛力 本來就是委員可以提異議就可以另定其處理 我還是要再講國安會議這次提的報告事項仍然是不合格對 你們還是沒有講為什麼你們要聘這麼多的諮詢委員 過去都沒有"},{"start":30448.986,"end":30464.702,"text":"對那既然這個當然這個所以我要強調是說這個案子不是我們剛剛講的不是說不正常程序這是完全合法正常的程序過去就這麼做那是因為你沒有在司法委員會你不知道更何況你上次自己"},{"start":30465.442,"end":30485.76,"text":"我在48委員會啊 委員我當十年的立委了好啦 剛剛志強委員都說了下一次你提案就是寫送書面報告 經同意後實的動之我們就沒話講我們如果說這樣討論 我可以免於同意但是你不應該說剛剛的程序是違法的"},{"start":30486.921,"end":30503.689,"text":"對 它就不是違法的以你上一次的做法以後提案寫清楚你自己在的時候 本來只是可以我們有提出現場的意義這是我們的權利因為不符合程序所以這是我們的權利那主席說這樣的宣告也沒有違法所以你不要說它是違法"},{"start":30506.085,"end":30521.512,"text":"因為本案有權利啦 確實這樣做也沒有違法啦但是因為大家如果覺得說不就這個部分去增值我們讓全案能夠順利的被查通過 那我想這也是好事啦 好不好"},{"start":30521.972,"end":30542.121,"text":"那就不要這個部分就不用再爭執了好那是不是我們就此報告事項我們就做如下的決定那也謝謝翁曉林委員的那個體諒那我們本件就准予被查提報院會那接下來我們進行討論討論這個"},{"start":30546.957,"end":30572.269,"text":"我們現在進行討論事項報告事項已經處理完畢我們繼續進行討論事項按機關別先進行總統府的預算解凍案部分我們進行討論事項有關總統府預算解凍案部分討論事項第一至第五案總統府一四年度預算解凍案業經報告及詢答完畢並宣讀請問各位委員有異議"},{"start":30575.278,"end":30597.423,"text":"都沒有依均準與動之提報願會我們接著進行討論事項有關國安會部分有關國家安全會議之預算解凍案部分討論事項第6至第8案國家安全會議第114年度"},{"start":30599.073,"end":30620.884,"text":"預算解凍案業經報告及詢問完畢並宣讀請問各位委員有異議因為有委員對於第6至第8案提出異議 仍有意見所以討論事項國家安全會之預算解凍案做如下決議第6至第8案均另定其繼續處理"},{"start":30624.372,"end":30633.354,"text":"那大家有要補充嗎沒有好那本日會議議程進行到此本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":30665.742,"end":30666.143,"text":"盡量盡力"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}