{"error":false,"id":["166973"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166973,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166973","日期":"2026-01-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,35],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-08T10:03:44+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-08T10:15:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5431e4ac9ee7f93dffc067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbaf686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:03:44 - 10:15:10","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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副部長 如果連你都不知道的話你怎麼能夠 要一個小兵能夠理解呢因為他這一個沒有飛 他勢必有他一定的因素那應該是講說他 我們要去了解他為什麼不願意執行這個任務好 那這個就是風險 我跟您報告 這個就是風險因為這個的決定就是長官"},{"start":170.835,"end":190.695,"text":"長官覺得 因為你問他 他一定說我沒有 我不是但是呢 長官就可以替他決定 他是想敵還是他就是一個該太處不適格的軍人這第一個 法律違反明確性的風險就在這裡所以為什麼我們在談法律的時候 尤其是刑法我們講求明確性原則 非常的重要所以"},{"start":191.755,"end":221.228,"text":"我先講一個就是說你今天把一些思想犯預備放進去的時候這個就會有很大的風險尤其你的立法有講到一些具體的行為你們這次有講到一些具體的行為那如果有具體的行為有過往的案例那你為什麼不條文寫的精確而是用陰謀或預備這種思想犯的概念放進去呢因為思想犯最危險的地方就是會把人的立場情緒跟一些抱怨都變成是降底或投底"},{"start":221.488,"end":246.067,"text":"我要跟委員解釋一下就譬如說飛行員他不執行任務這個事情我們要檢討平時跟暫時第二個部分是他不執行任務他的具體原因是什麼第三個部分是有關相關的這個頭體跟翔體我們必須要按照個案他有具體的行為來做檢討而不是說他今天有一個不是 你們的條文還包括到陳平時期跟開戰前"},{"start":247.688,"end":258.877,"text":"或戰事發生前所以我們必須要按照他個案發生的情形那不執行任務那我再跟您說明這就是我們法律人擔心的部分因為什麼都個案 什麼都個案到最後"},{"start":260.069,"end":283.619,"text":"您也搞不清楚 小兵更搞不清楚好不好 這先跟您說明第一個第二個 什麼叫做效忠這也是一個很不明確的一個概念那我先請教您一個問題現役軍人如果用社群轉發一個敵方的媒體影片譬如說戰狼啊 講那中國人民解放軍多厲害這個然後配文寫 我希望兩岸不要發生戰爭"},{"start":285,"end":303.333,"text":"他沒有收錢也沒有接觸對方然後只是轉貼那請問一下敵人看到了那這算不算是效忠上有問題或效忠敵人 算不算這個要從個案上面去講那第二個 被截圖轉傳就是軍人私下跟朋友聊天然後呢 跟朋友罵了一句話"},{"start":304.654,"end":333.349,"text":"結果朋友截圖轉到對岸的群組或是稱讚對岸的軍力多強請問這個有沒有效忠對方對岸的人看到了 有沒有還是跟委員報告第三個 兩岸往來如果軍人跑去那邊探親或辦台胞證或上淘寶去買檢體書然後跟軍隊同仁說那邊生活不錯這個算不算效忠敵人"},{"start":334.429,"end":339.306,"text":"我現在講的都是藍綠白 任何一個國民都會遇到的問題請問這是不是效忠"},{"start":340.665,"end":368.921,"text":"我要跟委員報告還是依據他有個案具體的行為去檢討好那再來如果軍人啊KTV唱歌唱一唱說我好累希望敵人趕快來這樣算不算還有再來如果是一些你們講連間接都算嘛那請問什麼叫做間接這是第一個問題什麼叫做間接第二個如果我在臉書上面按讚轉發引用點閱分享或者是私訊留言這個算不算這個都沒有明確我跟您報告"},{"start":370.694,"end":398.319,"text":"我再說一件事情我知道你們會跟我回一句話叫做依據憲法第九條軍法是適用在軍人不是用在一般平民對不對但是請看四字二七二號戒嚴時期軍法也有可能適用在一般人民所以今天我會很擔心一件事你今天軍法訂了以後依照我國的法制是有可能用在一般人民依據四字二七二號所以你這些東西不能這麼不明確否則今天不"},{"start":398.999,"end":419.422,"text":"不管誰執政都有民主國家執政可能是輪替的那我也不希望說改天如果民眾黨執政或國民黨執政用這個來修理民進黨的人我也不希望這樣所以我一直希望法律能夠有明確性的原則像剛剛主席在質詢我就覺得他質詢的就很清楚那我助理還跑來跟我說剛剛王委員今天的質詢很棒所以"},{"start":420.723,"end":447.334,"text":"沒有真的剛剛我助理就在這裡他剛剛就這樣跟我講所以我覺得這個是大家關注的議題法律明確性這個不分任何政黨的傾向我們支持那個陸海空軍刑法去辦叛國的人但是我們希望法律要有明確性更何況這一次司法院跟法務部其實都有報告來提醒你們說這個效忠這個用語太空泛太廣泛了"},{"start":447.694,"end":464.304,"text":"建議你們要加上這個行為要有足以產生軍事上的不利益這是這次司法院跟法務部都有給你們做這樣的建議並不是說只有我今天在這裡這樣子提出來我想很多東西不教而殺越之虐"},{"start":466.192,"end":478.627,"text":"副部長如果連您都很難去馬上判斷的時候小兵或者是基層軍官更不容易判斷更何況4.272號他是有可能在宣布戒嚴的時候"},{"start":480.34,"end":508.255,"text":"適用到一般人民身上這就是我認為 陸海空運刑法要 我們也要嚴格去看不是它只有針對軍人而是會針對到一般的平民我不希望啊 就說因為你這個效忠啊跟這個什麼降敵 這個我覺得太空泛我不希望回歸到戒嚴時期我看了一本禁書我就要被抓去關因為這都有可能被歸類是在降敵或者是你 你有沒有陰謀或預備副部長 我不知道你的想法是什麼"},{"start":508.8,"end":525.776,"text":"第一個部分是有關相關的軍刑法的一個修訂我們會做加強的宣導第二個部分就是我們現在所有設的個案他都有強制的辯護人員的設立所以每個個案都會去很緊實的處理"},{"start":526.937,"end":551.695,"text":"按照他個案的狀況來做檢討另外我想跟你們再提醒一下除了陸海公益刑法之外還有陸海空軍的懲罰法嘛你可以記過你可以把他勒令退伍你可以撤職所以對於這種思想上的人他沒有付諸行動或沒有造成實際的危害譬如說我轉發戰狼這部電影雖然我不看那部電影我不屑看但是呢"},{"start":552.355,"end":570.901,"text":"今天如果有人看了一段或截了一段轉傳了那會不會他會把自己給卡到官司卡到刑責因為你現在是要修刑法那其實他可以回歸到你們懲罰法去你可以把他汰除掉你可以把他勒令退伍你可以把他記過這些不是都可以做嗎而不是"},{"start":571.661,"end":599.856,"text":"做了什麼事要把他判刑而且判刑的標準竟然是長官來認定是不是就像我剛剛說的他因為沒有防寒衣他不敢飛結果你認為是想敵他認為我不是想敵我只是要保護我自己的我認為裝備齊全我願意跟我們的敵人一戰決一死戰但是因為現在裝備不齊全我不想飛那你說他是想敵這就會有這個空間存在所以我還是堅持那個點法律人我還是說法律話"},{"start":600.876,"end":618.086,"text":"法律明確性原則這是一個最基本的要求我支持你們對抗所有外來的無力我支持我國的國防我絕對支持但是你不能這樣子有一些不明確的東西在裡面好不好副部長可以麻煩你們在就這部分去加以審查可以嗎"},{"start":623.171,"end":651.159,"text":"至少參考司法院跟法務部的意見吧至少參考吧這個部分再麻煩你那因為272號請你再仔細看一下 釋制272號我們一般人民也有可能會被使用到我要跟委員說明就是每一個個案發生他會不會涉及到相關的一個刑者每一個個案都會很謹慎的處理而且每個個案會確實調查他們具體的行為以及他是有涉犯 沒有強制的辯護制度來"},{"start":652.74,"end":669.476,"text":"但是我跟副部長報告一件事如果連您都沒有辦法一望即知的時候我們更沒有辦法期待一般的士兵能夠知道我怎麼樣會違法怎麼樣不會而且入海公益刑法判刑都非常重這是我擔心我們的小孩都有一天會當兵"},{"start":674.08,"end":686.355,"text":"我也一定會支持我小孩要報效我們這個國家但是我不希望法律不明確好不好謝謝副部長再麻煩您能夠參考一下社會法務部的意見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}