{"error":false,"id":["166979"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":166979,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166979","日期":"2026-01-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,35],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-08T10:22:50+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-08T10:31:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5432532d6f4f8cfe753067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbaf855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:22:50 - 10:31:09","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.920343750000001,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.51846875,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.30659375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.96471875,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.95596875,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.187843750000003,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.81971875,"end":100.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.58909375,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.58471875000001,"end":102.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.57596875,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.95659375000001,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.20034375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.18346875,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.52784375000002,"end":168.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.86534375000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.63159375,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.35721875000002,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.93909375,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.59096875,"end":216.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.82409375,"end":232.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.77096875,"end":238.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.06971875000002,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.07721875000001,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.65471875000003,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.87534375,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.65159375,"end":270.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.06471875,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.66659375,"end":281.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.33284375,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.37409375000004,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.62596875,"end":301.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.84096875,"end":300.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.80659375000005,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.80596875000003,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.35846875000004,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.37909375000004,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.66596875000005,"end":310.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.71659375,"end":310.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.03721875,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.64409375,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.90034375000005,"end":323.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.38534375,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.66784375000003,"end":331.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.24159375,"end":326.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.76034375,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.70096875,"end":331.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.43909375000004,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.50659375000004,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.54034375000003,"end":336.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.65846875,"end":333.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.83534375000005,"end":341.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.40784375000004,"end":344.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.81659375000004,"end":347.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.43659375000004,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.73596875000004,"end":355.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.24534375,"end":357.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.05534375,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.02534375000005,"end":364.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.26534375,"end":397.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.25159375000004,"end":397.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.28534375000004,"end":402.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.36471875,"end":410.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.46034375000005,"end":467.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.27471875000003,"end":465.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.80596875000003,"end":498.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.29471875,"end":499.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.916,"end"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謝謝主席 我請一下國防部副部長以及我們司法院副廳長好 請中副部長還有我們副廳長"},{"start":18.373,"end":37.247,"text":"好 今天因為我們討論這個陸海空軍刑法第24條那條文只有一條 但是尤其現在對我們第一線的國軍弟兄來說尤其這些義靈的這些就是這個可能都在20多歲而已"},{"start":38.027,"end":41.149,"text":"那麼現在不管在網路上或者他們照片上都有可能我們擔心的在這次修法裡面會不會讓他們是不小心或者在完全沒有任何的意識之下觸及了相關的法律而使得他們可能變成要處一年以上的徒刑"},{"start":59.421,"end":64.026,"text":"那所以這個像剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到很多的案例算不算剛才副部長說都看個案那看起來就看個案就變成大家覺得整個的好像變得很虛然後很擔心會不會由我剛才講的這些年輕的一齡的男子很容易去觸發"},{"start":82.881,"end":100.1,"text":"那比如說這樣因為我們在講說怎麼樣是屬於效忠方式那比如我們在之前比如說對像像曹新成先生他跟他的中國的女朋友在他的手指上大家互刻一個忠誠那請問一下這叫不叫效忠忠誠對不對"},{"start":103.684,"end":115.886,"text":"老師說那對於很多的這些年輕的異男他可能跟他的男朋友或者跟他的女朋友來互克一個忠誠然後這有沒有可能處罰所以我覺得這個問題確實要在我們今天要把法律出去之前我們要有很多的討論那我現在先請一下這個副廳長因為我有看到因為剛才看到我們司法院今天提出來的好意見"},{"start":131.269,"end":157.303,"text":"那麼這裡面特別提到在你們的報告裡面說效忠的表示含義甚廣為了避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍依舊本條第五項它的補充為就是對敵人為效忠之表示後面應該加上足以生軍事上之不利益者這是你們今天"},{"start":158.383,"end":179.245,"text":"送到我們司法法治委員會的意見那麼能不能請副廳長來說明一下為什麼今天你們的意見是這樣子委員好就是說就如同我們報告所說就是說效忠是表示他含義是非常廣而這個法定刑是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":180.586,"end":198.869,"text":"並不輕喔 對於年輕的藝男來說對 是不輕那我們認為說這樣法律裡面沒有一個明確的定義說什麼叫效忠的表示的話那這個部分我們是擔心處罰範圍可能是會過廣所以我們希望說能夠在法官在個案審查"},{"start":199.269,"end":216.532,"text":"也就是說賦予法官個案的審查權說他這樣一個行為有沒有對特定法益也就是說軍事上的利益有造成侵害的情形 侵害的危險如果有的話這樣才能夠符合所謂法益保護的核心立法的目的"},{"start":217.734,"end":242.659,"text":"對 這樣子的修法會比較就是又符合國防部他們的需求然後在我們在法律上執行起來到時候不要變得說整個的這個處罰變得太廣泛 太抽象對不對對 但是就是說整個政策的決定我們還是會尊重大院的這當然 不然的話我們為什麼要請司法院提供意見好 來 副部長"},{"start":244.09,"end":263.935,"text":"好 剛才應該聽到這個副廳長的說法那麼事實上在我們的立法院法制及針對我們這個法裡面也提出來就是當時你們在這個預告 這個法律預告的時候其實是有這個文字的 是不是你們在法律預告的時候是有這個文字 副部長知道吧"},{"start":266.909,"end":287.138,"text":"不知道是有這個預告說是有這個文字有這個文字嘛所以他說你後來把他拿掉我不曉得你們為什麼拿掉但是現在司法院也認為應該把這個文字恢復所以你們當時拿掉的理由是什麼跟委員做個說明我們當拿掉最主要的理由就是認為說如果現役軍人"},{"start":288.427,"end":309.08,"text":"他對敵人為一個效忠行為的表示其實就已經對於我們的軍事安全國家利益產生的實質的危害對啊所以你們基本上是擔心產生軍事上的危害嘛現役軍人效忠敵人就是怕被敵人做一個侵佔宣傳我剛才在講效忠我剛才講我問你嘛"},{"start":311.081,"end":323.713,"text":"他上面刻忠誠 因為你們講說只要讓對方知道他要效忠了他跟一個對方的不管是中國的女朋友 男朋友或是我們互相刻一個忠誠 算不算他要像敵人喔"},{"start":325.783,"end":344.559,"text":"對阿 要向中共效忠阿她如果跟她女朋友效忠可能是愛意的表達或是什麼可能因為剛才委員講的只是說她是她女朋友男朋友沒有講敵人阿你們認為單身產生軍事上的不利益危害軍事那放到文字裡面有什麼問題放到文字裡有什麼問題報告委員"},{"start":348.823,"end":354.988,"text":"我們就認為說其實只要你對敵人為效忠的表示這個犯行就成立我們是採集成犯的一個態度所以就由你們來做還是要由檢察官事實上的認定然後來處理"},{"start":364.935,"end":390.668,"text":"我覺得今天司法院也做了一個很中肯的建議也做了一個很中肯的建議也就是在法律上要有他的明確性要有他的明確性不要致使很多的一些異難他可能做了一些事情你們認定他是做效忠表示我老師說真的會有一些比較白目一點的或者他很隨性的他可能做這些事情他沒有這個意圖但是你們認為他有這個意圖"},{"start":393.709,"end":410.587,"text":"那所以我覺得今天基本上我們基本上我們是同意這樣的一個修法的方向但是讓法律更有明確性讓我們的第一線軍官能夠更有就是他不要"},{"start":411.508,"end":436.098,"text":"很容易的變成有文字域也好網路域也好這個它有一個什麼行動就一下子就要變成處法然後被判處一年以上的徒刑所以基本上我覺得司法院已經是一個很中肯的建議而且在我們立法院的法治局也做了這樣相關的建議我覺得基本上這個法的一個修正的方向是OK的"},{"start":436.778,"end":464.196,"text":"但是 但是如果你在法律上不夠明確就會有剛才我們很多委員會擔心的事情會擔心的事情說這是不是會變成很容易入人於罪所以我希望國防部能夠像副部長你來你都不曉得有一個這麼重要的文字在這個過程裡面在你們的法條的預告裡面到你們送到立法院裡面竟然突然把它被打掉了我不曉得你們中間有沒有經過相關的討論"},{"start":468.018,"end":488.364,"text":"你都不知道啊 我剛才問你你都一副很茫然的樣子 是不是所以如果你們連這樣就是今天要除以一年以上徒刑這麼重要的事情你們覺得把這個文字拿掉都無所謂我覺得這對於我們所有在前線一線官兵來說"},{"start":489.484,"end":497.595,"text":"對他們來講在法律上的保障是不夠的所以我基本上我們還是會比較希望能夠採行司法院的意見"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}