{"error":false,"id":["167004"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167004,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167004","日期":"2026-01-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,35],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-08T11:47:03+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-08T11:56:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543ee844e02883698e9067a41bab2fb0fea1d89202e029a9f20d5f0a589f4d4aac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:47:03 - 11:56:48","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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謝謝主席有請我們國防部副部長副部長有請 謝謝今天我看這個大家做前次委員法律師 師長這個腦袋怪很清楚的還有我們司法院司法院今天有來 請代表請上台一下"},{"start":27.695,"end":53.98,"text":"這個副部長剛剛你也聽到了這個是很吊詭的一個邏輯總預算的一個附違這個還要附帶這麼多的一個條件這個隨便聽聽就好了所以還是聚焦在今天整個我們今天整個條文的一個修正我先來請教司法院司法院我看我很用心的去拜讀你們對今天這個條文的一個見解"},{"start":55.06,"end":76.867,"text":"就說你們提到的就好像是今天所提出來這樣的一個就訂了一個草案裡面第一個就是過程條件裡面你們認為可能就不夠明確而且還認為說你說效忠的範圍這第一個那第二個你們也提到說這個是不是會有違反比例原則的一個問題"},{"start":78.687,"end":100.92,"text":"但也確實有時候這個看起來就像一個危險犯一樣有時候變成比較抽象那到底要達到什麼樣的一個地步你們也提供了一些意見才把它至少認為說比較不會去跟言論的一個自由有所衝擊不會去違反到整個比例原則你們的憂慮是不是在這個地方"},{"start":103.797,"end":128.249,"text":"謝謝委員對 確實我們是擔心說這樣一個法律規定因為行為的太陽太多元了那我們希望說如果能夠加一個示性犯的要件那他是可以做一個比較精準的一個打擊然後也不會說就是處罰到或是說溢出到我們本來沒有意想到的這樣一個行為好 謝謝那我請我們那個法律師師長"},{"start":129.824,"end":153.419,"text":"市長我看你今天在談在回應的時候我看也都非常清楚但是我看整個陸海空軍刑法第24條修法的一個核心裡面你說新增現役軍人用言語舉動文字等對敵人來效忠因為畢竟這個是7年以上有期徒刑算是7年以下對7年最高最高7年就叫7年有期徒刑"},{"start":154.019,"end":172.388,"text":"那當然你去提高不盡其應盡的職責而去降敵罪這個處到最高到10年有期徒刑那同時也去增訂了預備跟陰謀犯的一個處罰的一個規定那我跟司法院長的一個講法其實也有他的一個擔憂在那剛剛我也問我倒認為說方向"},{"start":179.938,"end":206.306,"text":"你們修法的一個方向這個我贊同那這個效果的部分司法院那個見解倒是你們也可以好好地再來考慮一下因為修法以後呢你至少要有一個嚇阻力嘛會不會嚇阻我相信會有可是產生上實質的一個效果裡面呢那也確實是我會有一點點歡樂啦你像一般我們在修法的時候我們常常會講說你要處理什麼"},{"start":208.923,"end":230.031,"text":"譬如說詐欺罪一定要把它做一個提升就是說這個社會充滿著詐欺或者是說哪一個暴力犯罪我們要把它做一個提升這個太可惡了社會形成這樣的一個共識那你說這個去類似於說用發個文字言語去對敵人表達效忠我相信社會上也認為是應該去規範可是這個規範裡面"},{"start":234.526,"end":256.31,"text":"現在有一些在刑務上或者刑務以外的那這些有時候一般會你在刑法的規定裡面大家有時候常常會認為說刑法它畢竟是一個最後的一個手段那你前面還有一個色違法在那可能就沒有到達到那麼重的一個地步司法院這個擔憂我倒是贊同不曉得市長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":257.767,"end":271.039,"text":"跟委員報告一下司法院的建議我們國防部也有看到就如同委員講的他建議不是沒有他的道理只是我們雙方考量的論點不大一致而已"},{"start":271.94,"end":288.174,"text":"因為我們其實說實在話向德恩案產生之後我們身為現役軍人對我們來講的衝擊很大因為對國家的忠誠就是我們當軍人最重要的一個義務啦如果對國家不忠誠就不應該要當軍人"},{"start":289.495,"end":318.191,"text":"這個我贊同我相信社會也會贊同是所以如果說就是你是我們是國家捍衛國家的軍人在第一線操作武器保家衛國如果從你的嘴巴表示出來要效忠敵人我想全國人民也不會接受這樣的一個說辭因為這種說辭馬上就會被敵人拿來渲染作為一個興戰或是利用擴散的一個作為這樣子真的很容易打擊到我們國軍還有全體人民的一個士氣"},{"start":319.111,"end":333.908,"text":"是啊但我要問的就是說修法常常就是很急迫性要處理什麼啦你現在我看你2023年軍人起訴案件大部分你看72%裡面都是其他軍事犯罪啊酒駕啊倒賣啊這就70幾人99個人啊其他違反那個"},{"start":339.734,"end":357.857,"text":"執意職責大部分都是逃兵嘛那反而說你違反國家職責罪這個部分反而我看你那個數據啊反而沒有那麼多啦那你從2024年的數據去做分析趨勢也都一樣啊也是一樣是酒駕、倒賣差不多逃兵那部分違反效忠國家職責這當然很嚴重但是還是極少數還是極少數所以呢我"},{"start":369.119,"end":398.516,"text":"比較擔心的就是說這些要跟社會對話也要講清楚軍人當然就一定要去效忠國家你說去發一個現役軍人去發一個效忠別的國家用文字用圖像那還得了那還得了可是是不是要達到用這樣的一個刑法這麼高的一個威嚇或者說立法方向是如此那要件部分是不是讓他更明確我不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":399.945,"end":409.872,"text":"欸 各位媒體朋友就是針對司法院的建議其實我們可以在逐條的時候來好好的來一個研討所以我意思是說那紅線在外面不然大家都會說我在開玩笑"},{"start":411.089,"end":433.67,"text":"你那個主觀過程要見到最後你很難去含澀進去有那個行為看起來都很可惡媒體如果去給你炒作的話都是新聞的熱點跟焦點可是你到了檢察官尤其是到法官在法官要下那個判決的時候他一定每一個主觀過程要見一一跟你含澀 一一跟你分析你光有一個客觀要見不好啊是不是這樣說"},{"start":437.11,"end":462.002,"text":"我師長你懂我意思嗎 我了解是啊 所以法律其實如果沒有定的很明確的話你讓個別不一樣的法官做出不一樣的一個裁決這個也會天下大亂啊你像譬如說藝人最多嘛藝人一部隊有走在兩岸他如果來當兵的時候他也去給你發一個像譬如說連現役軍人我相信你去發一個祝賀中國的國慶"},{"start":463.263,"end":489.006,"text":"在我們的想像裡面 社會一定認為你亂來 現役軍人什麼祝賀中國國慶大家都覺得很不可思議啊但重點如果他的做了 要不要提升到七年 最高到七年我相信也沒有一個法官會判到七年嘛可是如果比較極端的 像這樣的一個情況之下這樣判七年嘛 好像也你不覺得好像也比較奇怪一點嗎"},{"start":490.604,"end":508.426,"text":"甚至有些藝人 他們也跟他說不是我 那是我的經紀人給我發來的大家互不滿所以舉這樣的一個例子裡面我倒是希望說我們這個整個提出來的一個草案裡面方向我相信都是"},{"start":509.347,"end":527.012,"text":"為了整個國家的一個安全而且對於現役軍人這些不當的一個行為那本來就是嚴格要去做一個禁止啦但是我是期待這整個過程要見應該讓他更具體不要到最後到你說檢察官起訴我看"},{"start":528.212,"end":555.655,"text":"這個新證也不用超過50%50%以下的0到50這個全部不要形成確信都可以起訴啊可是到了法官那個地方又不一樣啦那法官在判的時候那一一一給你過程要進去做一個檢視的話到最後啊 你要有起訴料喔那到最後又判決無罪你最後當然是以法院的判決算嘛可是社會又引起很多的一個波瀾引起很多的一個波瀾有沒有好處"},{"start":556.716,"end":566.922,"text":"你說真正唯一的一個好處是只有殺雞儆猴啦可是對整個司法的一個威信大家會覺得說這樣起訴 這樣起訴人家阿旁邊在判假這樣也不好好不好所以我倒覺得那個要件讓他更明確的話那可能這才是在立法院大家一起來支持的話我相信在野黨對這種條文他也不敢後悔來啦好不好是好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊銘先生"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}