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第三個必要時修正其他法規的一個配套那以現在目前提出來的台灣未來帳戶的條例來看的話 請問有徵詢過行政院嗎"},{"start":78.767,"end":97.638,"text":"根本沒報告除了預算法第九十一條之外在財政紀律法還有還有財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一都有相同的規定那我先問就是現在我剛講的那三個法律要件到底做到哪哪項哪幾項目前我們所知現在是都還沒有跟行政部門來"},{"start":100.044,"end":125.553,"text":"類似所以還不知道那個彌補資金的來源還有整個其他如果修正的話那個配套措施是什麼所以這個條例還規定說經費要優先移用前年度的稅計那個剩餘甚至舉借債務的資應請問主席總署這邊這個規定如果沒有跟行政院討論的話對我們的政府財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":128.036,"end":153.025,"text":"這裡面的總經費要達到4500億等同一年他就平均一年是要增加大概340幾億340幾億那我們現在的舉債空間算出來大概就只有1800多億在扣除國防扣除國防平均每年大概要1560億頂多只剩下大概300億的空間那我們每年的"},{"start":154.406,"end":179.246,"text":"科技還有公共建設還有我們依法律支出每年這些經費大概要成長5%那每年大概就要花到大約是1200多億所以每年的稅率的成長數大概用到這些就不夠了如果說要在這一筆下去的話那可能就需要排擠到我們其他的一個就是排擠到其他的政策"},{"start":181.287,"end":200.281,"text":"未有說明吧就是這個是一個選擇啦你選擇做這個你可能就會排擠到我們其他的支出以上所以我最後再確認一次如果這個條例沒有符合上述的法律要件如果今天假設真的諸條審查的話被強行通過最後三讀的話是不是又會出現有違法疑慮的條例"},{"start":202.283,"end":219.943,"text":"預算法跟財政紀律法有財政措施法法都很明確的規定對於大筆的支出還需要先指名彌補的財源這一次的金額高達4500億元目前也還沒有和行政部門來做一個溝通我覺得應該還是要謹慎"},{"start":222.611,"end":251.192,"text":"所以這就是我們擔心如果立法委員都覺得自己提的事實上是福國利民的法律案的話那我真的想問憲法跟預算法為什麼還要設這些規定各位那就不用啦為什麼不讓立法委員自己想加多少就加多少還要徵詢行政機關這跟財政紀律到底有什麼關係可是我們財政紀律法是講得非常的清楚所以我很擔心說如果有人現在甚至有沒有想法是說今天在這邊質詢一下就算徵詢行政院"},{"start":251.992,"end":280.917,"text":"接下來就要強推上下那我就要請你回到財政紀律也回到我們的4-268號的解釋的原因要防止政府的預算突然膨脹的話那造成人民增加人民的負擔的話那就是要落實我們的責任政治所以請問主席總署你認為今天質詢完就可以增加預算人嗎要從預算編列落實到責任政治的話應該怎麼做"},{"start":282.319,"end":294.424,"text":"我們那個立法院具有預算的審議權但是預算的權是在行政院像類似這種金額非常龐大我們認為還是需要由行政部門來做一個審慎的評估"},{"start":297.048,"end":315.66,"text":"所以最後我大概要再三強調如果沒有妥善的規劃真的是上一個政策會變成是全民的災難如果未來帳戶如果要最後要舉債來買單的話這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢這有多麼諷刺謝謝主席總說請回那接下來請衛福部的次長請女次長"},{"start":322.387,"end":339.603,"text":"市長我們就來討論完善的規劃剛好在問經費預算有沒有違憲因為有時候除了經費預算的話應該更關鍵的是政策內容我要先講清楚要解決重大議題不是不能花錢該花就花可是要先搞清楚"},{"start":340.803,"end":356.713,"text":"這筆錢到底為什麼要編要解決什麼問題這個未來賬戶的法案說明五花八門引用各國的政策這樣依照你現在看到的條例內容暗由立法說明你認為這到底是什麼樣的一個法案因為講了第一條就講了"},{"start":357.193,"end":373.896,"text":"大概五個目標那一個政策要解決五個目標只有一個帳戶裡面要能夠解決五個目標那你們過去掃紙花花一千多億從很辛苦的要做兒托生育補助還有教育的支持準攻非營利幼兒園"},{"start":375.037,"end":392.148,"text":"這些都要一一的來做推動甚至給我們的保姆的政策跟托嬰中心的準攻甚至普設托嬰中心還在做親子館這些事情所以不知道你覺得這法案到底要解決什麼問題還是能夠解決貧富差距跟培養人才"},{"start":393.249,"end":420.377,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見我先簡單說明一下我們在過去8年總共政府已經投入5931億已經投入將近快6000億這是第一點另外第二點我必須要在這邊說我想提出這一個特別條例我想當然大家都非常關心但是我們在立法的時候不能只談理想不談代價"},{"start":422.362,"end":439.774,"text":"不能只談理想不談代價那你覺得有沒有會影響到什麼因為這13年就要花到4033億喔只靠一個帳戶的政治操作政策操作的話可以一次滿足這麼多政策目標嗎那你們有沒有評估"},{"start":440.735,"end":461.544,"text":"我們的國民黨有沒有跟你討論 跟你們討論過是 包委員 目前就是說以這個第一條的這個相關的這個五大目標這個是我在這邊的這一個過去的研究顯現大概基本上利益良善這一個理念也不錯 但是恐怕方法會有誤導"},{"start":462.384,"end":483.528,"text":"也會有問題這裡面簡單來說這個目標很好但是呢這裡面的這個策略跟方法恐怕不僅為蒙其利反受其害剛剛也說了就是說在這裡面本來要解決現在當期兒童的問題最後可能會載留子孫而且會複製現有的一個整個階級的不平衡"},{"start":484.128,"end":507.615,"text":"最後的結果恐怕要甚思啦而且根本恐怕是沒辦法解決目前現有的少子女化問題因為釐清這件事情非常重要這牽扯到後面政策規劃要怎麼定成效怎麼檢驗這麼龐大的預算會不會排擠到我非常關心的像托育教育尤其我至為關心的社福的資源為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":509.395,"end":526.462,"text":"不要沒有看見差異跟弱勢最後就是變成是排平跟擴大貧富差距因為我們在很多政策都看到同一件事情只要不是專門鎖定弱勢最後就會出現參與落差低收入家庭參與的"},{"start":527.842,"end":541.528,"text":"會變成比較少拿的也比較少資源有限的時候本來就應該優先照顧弱勢可是這個條例看不到差異化的一個設計我也看不出來它到底要怎麼如條文所說的去解決貧富差距"},{"start":542.648,"end":570.597,"text":"所以很現實的我們來講那個現實就好就教育發展帳戶的經驗很清楚低收入中低收入家庭常常入不敷出最大問題他就是沒辦法開發穩定的來做存錢所以我就直接問如果中低收入家庭連條件相對優渥的教育發展帳戶都難穩定繳存的話那他們還有餘率去繳這個未來帳戶嗎反而如果通過的話從社會公平正義的角度上來看你怎麼看這兩個帳戶的關係"},{"start":571.897,"end":589.578,"text":"是 包委員 陳儒剛委員剛剛所說的其實對於我們很多很多那個低所得者請教都不可能再去拔光所以就是因為這樣所以我們才來弄這個條例我們讓他一比一的這一個部分另外剛剛陳儒 賴委員剛剛也有提到"},{"start":590.399,"end":619.974,"text":"我們不是只有台積電還有這個高科技我們也有很多港口人外送員還有中小企業這是我們每次要去照顧的你這樣是不是會造成我們現有的就是你的爸媽因為在台積電或者說在這個高所得那你現在就可以來有這個Machine Fund還有國家還要給你這個開戶金我是覺得恐怕會有複製現在目前現有的貧富差距不僅沒有解決反而擴大了"},{"start":620.134,"end":638.893,"text":"所以真的要慎重所以这样我也一直在关心现有的儿童及少年未来教育跟发展账户能不能让更多真正需要的孩子被纳进来得到更多支持没错可是现在看到这账户的资格是跟着社会救助法走我从年初就一直找卫福部跟民团谈那个社会救助法"},{"start":639.494,"end":665.949,"text":"那我就直接問次長我前兩個月代理我們的主持未還委員會考察社會救助跟貧窮的時候團體就很清楚指出需你所收入把人卡在門外民間也倡議要用自述所得來補漏洞你們12月29號次長你自己也跟團體開過會可是還是卡在此題所以你們現在願不願意改還是你們有沒有具體的做法要調整"},{"start":666.489,"end":688.571,"text":"家庭收入的计算方式把净贫但真正有需求的家庭纳进来让真正的发展账户可以保护到更多需要的儿少非常感谢委员这个问题这个命题大概有两个部分第一个我先跟委员报告我们现在目前现有的台湾的社会救助其实从广义来说不是只有低收中低收其实还包括八大津贴"},{"start":689.605,"end":708.779,"text":"那如果把低收中低收當然是2.15但是如果把八大津貼算進來我跟委員報告我們事實上是cover了8.6%所以我們現在目前如果從這個廣義的部分比如說未來我只是說假設未來我們可以把這一個就是牛領津貼的我們或許也可以來納入考量這是第一點"},{"start":709.039,"end":730.769,"text":"另外第二點剛剛委員也垂行到就是有關於社會救助法的這一個部分自訴所得我跟委員報告我們現在目前都在進行相關的一個研擬但是我也跟委員報告現在就是說反正我們現在目前會朝一個大概什麼時候會好因為已經很多次因為我從我們一進來就一直認為社會救助法應該是優先法案真的要幫助弱勢"},{"start":731.989,"end":746.722,"text":"不能讓弱勢在空等我覺得時間真的是不等小孩啦所以呢孩子都長大了結果他還是弱勢在貧窮線那邊所以希望你們可以盡速啦當然我也覺得說今天真的好好談這個未來賬戶的這個議題"},{"start":748.303,"end":771.838,"text":"因為少子女的話不是單一原因造成的要解決就要多管齊下也要請你們也是好好去思考這件事情還有把一千億集中在未來帳戶這一個工具我看不出來這是會是怎麼樣一個有效的方法可能你們是不是也要朝向是說整個的未來教育跟發展帳戶可以怎麼去思考擴大我們的需求讓弱勢的孩子獲得照顧"},{"start":772.458,"end":785.059,"text":"是 報告委員 那個其實卓院長其實也在元旦那邊他有一個裁示就是我們會操擴大的這一個那個弱勢優先的原則來推動 謝謝好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝我們的次長是 感謝祐勤委員 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}