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有請顧部長部長好部長我們今天特別會去釘釘這個議題希望國防部可以更清楚的說明很重要的一個因素是我們在近期看到從子彈到火藥"},{"start":25.031,"end":40.738,"text":"它發生的問題其實它兩個事件我們看到它有一個共同的起點它都不是我們自己不能生產我們本身都可以做而且過去不管品質、規格還有價錢其實都算是不錯的"},{"start":42.038,"end":53.047,"text":"可是我們現在卻一再的決定一定要外購我們想要知道主要的原因是什麼因為從早就是一開始到現在我們聽到很多的回答其實是非常矛盾的就剛剛有提到說我們這個產線在新廠到底什麼時候開始我們到底有多少產量這個部分我想在去年就已經對外本來去年8月就應該要"},{"start":71.861,"end":99.86,"text":"完成可是後來又到12月說12月其實就可以開始量產那現在又好像要延到今年的3月所以到底什麼時候新廠可以開始跟委員報告我們的委協書就是如同委員所說明的我們的跟中科院的委協書是到114年的12月31號那目前我們的機具也跟委員之前說明的都已經到新的一個營區不管是"},{"start":100.58,"end":104.964,"text":"我們不是要知道這個詳細的那個因為他已經延宕了剛剛你們拿疫情來當理由說因為高雄市政府是因為疫情的關係所以我們的土建延後如果要用這個理由那他也已經延過了因為本來應該是前年要完成的我們已經延了一年那現在在去年又好像沒有辦法完成現在又要延到今年三月三月確定可以嗎確定可以"},{"start":128.562,"end":136.211,"text":"確定可以所有的四線都可以生產5.56我還是上禮拜跟委員報告5.56是3月其他三條線是9月"},{"start":138.653,"end":144.817,"text":"9月所以你又要再往後延一年沒有沒有沒有沒有今年今年3月就是5.56沒有你這個本來應該前年要完成去後來你們對外宣稱說去年12月就可以開始量產那現在又要延到3月跟9月等於你又要延了將近一年的時間是這樣嗎"},{"start":160.066,"end":168.31,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟中坤的委協書是到去年12月31號了委協書我都有看了確實我們假如是以委協書來量產我們現在要知道的是我們一言再言的原因是什麼因為這樣沒有影響戰力嗎當你急著編很大筆的預算要外購的時候我們要先很清楚的知道我們自己內部到底發生什麼問題因為為什麼我說你們的說法是很矛盾的剛剛有提到我們過去的舊廠舊縣"},{"start":190.02,"end":200.723,"text":"只有兩條生產線它不但可以符合我們自己的訓量符合我們自己國內的需求而且還可以賣給其他國家還可以賣給民間賣給美國在作戰的時候使用可是現在我們增加了四條線新廠有四條新的生產線還再加上兩條舊的生產線你們號稱可以生產一億發的子彈"},{"start":217.048,"end":245.565,"text":"可是現在還需要外購原因是什麼委員報告齁 就我跟軍備局的了解是這樣就是說 現況上來講 即使布布林有沒有搬遷他的5.56公里的這個彈藥跟7.6公里的彈藥是共線嘛那所以他生產的時候如果是生產5.56 他就不能夠生產7.6你們以前不知道嗎對 但是我講的是現況 不是以前不知道那我們現在講的是說 我們現在新的線拆線"},{"start":246.425,"end":265.291,"text":"接下來中科院的部分那中科院是不是要說明一下他4條新的線4條新的線那他都可以同時間產製那另外有在跟委員報告就是那個底火的部分底火的部分現在也要透過特別預算來增加那一個底火的產線因為底火才能夠支撐整個彈藥的一個生產每顆彈藥就要一顆底火"},{"start":269.873,"end":288.249,"text":"那所以底火的部分透過特別預算會增加到原來現況是兩千四百萬那現在底火的部分是四千八九千九千多那如果能夠才暫時的三班次的話那就會再增加大概大概現況跟"},{"start":289.89,"end":291.512,"text":"跟現在要加強的狀況大概是我們用很簡單的方法來算我們剛剛有提到舊線就是兩條新線再增加四條我們總共有六條生產線你說我們現在一億發的這個子彈敵火會不足"},{"start":306.03,"end":309.611,"text":"你明明知道你要生產的是一億發的子彈你的底火沒有辦法生產你當初是怎麼設計這四條生產線你現在如果我們沒有特別預算那你的底火怎麼辦你當初這個是怎麼設計出來的這是我說的第一個矛盾的地方第二個為什麼是一定要用特別預算你在過去新廠的"},{"start":328.195,"end":332.377,"text":"在建制的時候我們所有的產線在建制的時候你們用的都是生殖基金為什麼你現在如果有真的需要照理說是不應該現在還要增加這個部分這個根本就是強詞多理你在設計的時候生產一億發的時候你沒有辦法設計生產低火那你要怎麼生產一億發的子彈如果他3月開始他9月開始你沒有這個低火的生產線一億發這個怎麼生產出來"},{"start":357.407,"end":364.553,"text":"這是第一個矛盾的地方第二個就是你不是用特別預算今天我們聽到現在好像大家都在幫特別預算在爭取而已而不是解決我們現在目前我們產生的疑問剛剛不管小口徑也好或者大口徑的彈藥也好你們都說一定要有這個特別預算才可以生產我們過去中科院做那麼多的飛彈你們號稱"},{"start":383.209,"end":392.331,"text":"可以在我們每年的機密預算裡面我們每年不管熊系列不管天公系列不管其他的彈藥我們都沒有發生過這樣的問題今天突然需要特別預算的時候大家都需要從那裡出來了所以你過去是怎麼做的我們現在要討論的就是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":402.654,"end":404.436,"text":"所有的彈藥你今天兩條舊線30年前的生產線你都可以自我滿足然後還可以出售甚至可以提供他國的戰爭使用"},{"start":418.071,"end":423.333,"text":"那個一直用到2020年都是6塊錢那個你們說的那個錢都是話術啦我們賣給他6塊美國就是提供低火跟跟那個發射藥沒有錯可是其他的全部都是我們的生殖中我們自己的205廠生產的所以我們不只是代工你明明就可以做一整顆完整的可以賣給人家我現在要提到的是這個部分第二個就是我們現在"},{"start":446.843,"end":454.104,"text":"剛剛你們也提到那個價格的部分114年我們國防部綠定的普通彈跟鋼心彈的價格是多少"},{"start":457.965,"end":475.002,"text":"114年我直接講好了114年普通蛋你們訂的是9塊錢就是國防部如果要跟軍備局買普通蛋是9塊錢剛興蛋是14塊你們訂的是14塊包括你們在今年的預算就是今年的預算沒有14塊"},{"start":480.732,"end":484.215,"text":"報委員我們沒有訂14塊這個你們綠定的價格14塊不然你的你知道你115年的那個公務預算今年我們算還沒有審可是你的公務預算裡面編列8.9億要向生殖中心購置這個6200萬發"},{"start":499.509,"end":501.39,"text":"我們把它換算下來就是14塊出頭就是14塊所以你包括今年編的要買的其實也是14塊可是你在招標上公告上面他一顆的價格高達18.8塊雖然絕標價是15塊多所以我剛剛聽你們說綠定的價格變成16塊我覺得是"},{"start":521.844,"end":532.28,"text":"得標以後才滾動式的修正因為你們自己看你們的公務預算不要搖頭也不要在這裡說你們沒有清楚的再去查你們114年綠定的這個一定有一定有正式的文書資料"},{"start":536.987,"end":552.382,"text":"容我簡單跟您報告一下一百五十五年公務預算所編列的十四塊一他是十四塊一的時候他那個是最先入軍為了這個這個鋼心彈的需求做的一個訪商尋商的一個價格那實際上"},{"start":554.684,"end":558.067,"text":"這個軍備局他對外招標的時候是在去年年底那這個是一個物價上面的差異性所以最終他是以他15.13以來的標美國的網站同規格的子彈比國防部採購的價格低了近三成自己先去查清楚再來回答這些相關的問題我們目前所有看到的而且我想請教部長我們看一下我們這一次"},{"start":581.226,"end":588.99,"text":"要採購的都是我們這一次裡面很重要一個有5.56步槍彈的這個型號我想請教部長這四個型號你大概知道這是什麼彈嗎上面有這個應該依序是這個左邊是普通彈然後這個是鋼心彈和那個M855A1的這個就是一個加強版的"},{"start":606.738,"end":629.561,"text":"M85A1是哪一個M85A1是最右邊那第三個勒五星彈好 我們這次要買的是什麼彈我們這次要買第二個 綠色彈頭的M85 鋼芯彈嘛我們自己能不能做 新產線可以嘛所以我們自己能做 為什麼你們還沒做的時候你要外購"},{"start":631.451,"end":634.893,"text":"而且幾乎全部外購為什麼這剛剛已經說明了剛剛已經跟委員報告為什麼因為最主要就是因為這個一年期一物一的徵集還有叫一物一的徵集我們所有的訓場我們所有的靶場我們所有的時間我們所有的教官我們能夠安排的可以打靶的時間有多少那個都可以算得出來是的"},{"start":651.82,"end":655.481,"text":"你突然說今年要增加這麼多的一個彈量我剛剛一直提到我們現在有兩個舊線再加上四條新的線它可以生產普通彈也可以生產鋼芯彈就是我們這一次外購的M855鋼芯彈我們買的確定不是M855A1嘛對不對 M855"},{"start":672.665,"end":675.746,"text":"M855你們再仔細去查一下人家的價格因為現在美國全部都要把它賣掉美國現在用的M855A1鋼心彈因為它M855已經不用了第一不環保第二其實它的殺傷力並沒有想像這麼好"},{"start":689.793,"end":691.174,"text":"他對人員的那個可能供給也沒有像我們說的這麼好所以我現在要請教的是為什麼我們一定要外購我們為什麼生產會不足我剛剛已經講過相關的理由你一年可以生產一億發喔"},{"start":707.364,"end":709.866,"text":"那你現在有很多還是需要外購在今天的專報書面資料和跟委員的說明已經報告過從111年到114年我們整個實戰化的訓練和整個教招和義務役還有我們我剛剛也說過了我剛剛也說過了"},{"start":724.737,"end":727.899,"text":"我們現在我們的庫存有滿山滿谷的855鋼心彈那時候美國軍援的子彈就是855鋼心彈855鋼心彈我們在訓練的時候為什麼不會用很重要的就是它對於我們的槍管會磨損它很多很多的靶場現在根本禁止使用這是第一點我必須向您報告我們現行部隊"},{"start":751.194,"end":753.836,"text":"經常性射擊的我們在鋼心彈的射擊的彈數裡面佔了83%一直以來我們在現行的訓練裡面沒有 現行訓練裡面從過去到現在一直是使用普通彈跟鋼心彈而且鋼心彈的比例佔了87%鋼心彈是什麼鋼心彈是用在什麼地方練習"},{"start":773.43,"end":791.862,"text":"就是一般的靶場我們現行的靶場就是在使用並沒有為了這一次才特別去買這個為什麼過去都不用你從以前就87%都是把它講清楚一直都有在使用參謀長一直都有在使用它是在哪些時候有使用我們過去沒有自己做對不對從民國93以後我們過去也沒有買我們就沒有在採購都是從庫儲推好那它從哪裡來你庫儲是戰備庫儲說採購的來推好戰備庫儲是哪裡來的"},{"start":803.804,"end":804.628,"text":"在93年以前採購的"},{"start":805.726,"end":808.827,"text":"93年以前採購的數量可以用到我們一百一十幾年所以我們的庫儲佔備其實非常多這個詳細的數量我們現在還有我們現在要釐清的就是這個已經很多包括美國其實他都不用了可是這個我必須容我跟您報告M85A1也是我們積極爭取的一個彈藥但是目前"},{"start":833.812,"end":850.822,"text":"是沒有管制出口是管制出口所以我們目前最在這個鋼芯彈裡面我們最高的就是能用到M85鋼芯彈用在什麼地方的練習設計用在什麼地方參謀長不要只說你都有把比較具體的隨便舉例說出來現行的部隊舉例幾個任何駐地基地和三軍聯訓我們所停領的彈藥現行就是普通彈 鋼芯彈這兩種"},{"start":862.32,"end":868.743,"text":"按照現在的資料統計近三年5.56公里的步槍彈每年平均訊號5367萬餘發普通彈是860萬餘發剛性彈就4506萬發就是剛剛參謀長講的佔到83%"},{"start":880.968,"end":889.012,"text":"過去的來源是什麼因為部長如果我們每年你現在從93年開始一直到現在每年有4000多萬發你用的都是鋼心彈可是我們卻從來沒有採購過我們也從來沒有做過原來111年的時候至少現在資料顯示111年的時候還只有2340萬發嘛萬餘發嘛所以他這個訓量就一直增加嘛"},{"start":912.627,"end":918.163,"text":"2340萬餘發我現在要說的部長我想我們可以再把資料找來你要不要說明一下"},{"start":920.615,"end":937.693,"text":"委員好 我是彈藥處處長跟委員做個說明我們之前在100年左右我們國軍的這個子彈至少有大概五六億左右那後續接著因為裁軍的因為一些關係我們這子彈是超量的時間的關係我只要你們具體的我簡單的講第一"},{"start":941.417,"end":950.182,"text":"我們鋼芯彈過去舊線從來沒有自己生產過對不對我們從90年之後沒有再買但是我們以前大概有三四億發三四億發用了十幾年你的意思好這樣"},{"start":956.712,"end":974.568,"text":"90年以前有買過然後美國也有軍援我們現在在訓練的時候大家都是在什麼地方使用我很可能有一些誤解我們這些鋼心彈有些已經都超過差不多30年那你再不把它做社訓推號的話它接下來就要報廢所以我們在"},{"start":975.769,"end":979.452,"text":"10年前大概就是以一成左右來做這個規號沒關係 我們用邏輯來講嘛你今天說那個有的都已經超過30年所以那個不能用可是你這幾年全部都沒有突然在今年才開始有而且你的價格非常高而且同時跟我們的火藥同時一起對外採購我們要強調的是"},{"start":1000.928,"end":1004.81,"text":"第一這個是我們的新產線是可以自己生產的你今天如果你的訊量要增加我們自己的產線也可以生產這個鋼芯彈這是第一個它不是只能生產普通彈喔它只是彈頭轉換而已所以我們的新產線是可以生產鋼芯彈如果我們真的有這樣的需求的時候"},{"start":1022.72,"end":1028.501,"text":"第二個 我們所有的武器裝備我們其實是更老舊的為什麼大家不用鋼芯彈剛剛我們提到一個很重要的因素它會對我們的槍管造成火損這個855並不會對槍管造成過度的磨耗因為它本身的糖壓跟您所說的那個A1是不一樣你說 你現在的回答跟大家的認知不一樣因為我們現時使用的就是855鋼芯彈沒關係 你現在"},{"start":1049.145,"end":1053.388,"text":"那你855鋼型彈已經用很多嘛我現在要的 確切的這樣的資料參謀長請你 你是陸軍參謀長855跟855A1那855A1比那個優秀的地方在哪裡第一個他本身你為什麼訓練不是 我再請教一個問題好了訓練的時候你為什麼不用普通彈"},{"start":1073.803,"end":1076.644,"text":"因為一個6塊4塊多算6塊好了一個6塊然後一個你們訂了18塊8沒有說訓練不能用沒有說訓練不能用普通彈我們整個一切的採購我們一切的戰備存量參謀長告訴我們為什麼你在訓練不是用普通彈我們訓練的很多彈藥必須要從戰備來推耗以節約這個攻堂和避免再做廢彈的處理"},{"start":1099.773,"end":1110.719,"text":"他的價格是他的三倍請告訴我們推號我們可以理解可是你的普通蛋一定比鋼心蛋多得多因為你從過去到現在你生產的都是普通蛋庫存的普通蛋量是比鋼心蛋還少所以我們剛剛也報告了在普通蛋我們推號完畢之後我們為了平站一致和為了能夠有較佳的貫穿力我們會採購鋼心蛋"},{"start":1125.543,"end":1130.929,"text":"所以你的鋼芯彈是要來做戰備儲存的戰備儲存可是你在採購的時候你是說要訓練喔沒有報告在預算書表裡面是講戰備儲存及教育訓練用彈補充"},{"start":1141.721,"end":1146.044,"text":"你的採購書採購公告採購上面說的是訓練的你們自己再去看清楚所以其實我們就是還是回過頭來我們要知道的為什麼我們的產線沒有辦法自己生產因為如果你要做到生產鋼心蛋也沒有問題可是你卻要外購應該要告訴大家我們的生產線有沒有問題報委員應該就我的需求來說我先不談生產"},{"start":1170.161,"end":1191.91,"text":"今天如果在國會的殿堂上面參謀長沒關係你已經解釋了今天如果在國會的殿堂上面這個都是有記錄的如果有人公然說謊未來是不是大家要負起這樣的責任都可以嘛所以我們希望你再回去查查一下"},{"start":1192.89,"end":1196.772,"text":"M855鋼心彈對我們的武器裝備會不會造成損耗他的壽命是不是會減短這是很普通的常識因為M855A1是美方現在全面要的我們要第一個提醒是我們不要"},{"start":1212.422,"end":1221.066,"text":"去幫人家清庫存第二個我們自己能做的因為你每次都說要國防自主當你花了五十幾億又增加二十幾億去增加這些生產線到現在還沒有辦法做出我們需求的彈藥這個問題到底出在哪裡這個可能陸續後面還要再追蹤我們現在要講的是你講得很清楚嘛等他生產的線擴線以後我們就有嘛"},{"start":1235.213,"end":1238.215,"text":"部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年"},{"start":1251.583,"end":1255.885,"text":"我們過去的戰備存量我們因為我們要建廠所以其實我們沒有賣出去我們把它用在戰備就是我們的戰備用量還有我們的訓量那時候所以我們沒有在外就是沒有把它賣出去所以那就是在估計我們的戰備存量"},{"start":1271.773,"end":1286.351,"text":"部長如果像你剛剛說的那個理由都不是現在應該有的理由我們現在講的是我們的新產線照理都應該要能夠馬上生產我們自己自主不然我們就不用增加這個啊今天你如果因為多了一些義務役我們現在的國軍是減少的"},{"start":1289.975,"end":1294.278,"text":"然後你說我們那個戰備存量跟我們的那個訓練的彈藥是不足的這是第一點矛盾第二個我們自己能做一直強調明明我們自己能做用到了我們的戰備存量所以我們要先去補戰備存量所以現在有一個部長那是他們跟你說的嘛我就說他的戰備存量他每年都在計算嘛他以前就已經都補足了所以他沒有賣出去嘛他以前每年都有賣給其他國家他甚至賣出5億發"},{"start":1320.378,"end":1343.653,"text":"報告委員我必須再報告一點因為我們現在戰備對於庫儲基準的調整是提升的所以並不能用以前那這個提升的比例我不方便在這裡公開講下去可以跟委員報告他是提升相當大的因為我們不能仰賴作戰的時候才去考量到這個緊急的生產或是外援那那個整個是不太可能所以我們是提升了戰備的滿足率我們再提醒一次"},{"start":1346.074,"end":1350.576,"text":"我們花了很多的錢好幾十億我們蓋了新產線就是為了要增加我們的製彈量這是第一點第二個我們如果是要增加我們的訓練用彈那你應該用的是普通彈你即使我們普通彈去年編了大概四千多萬的預算四億多然後要買四千多四千多萬發"},{"start":1373.826,"end":1381.768,"text":"事實上好像也沒有足額的提供所以如果像這樣子普通彈是訓練用的你的戰備彈是另外的考量這個部分我們再次提醒如果說你們用這一個沒有辦法好好的解釋我覺得這後續可能還會衍生更大的問題就這個部分提供詳細的資訊我們下去會會同相關單位到委員辦公室向您做完整的說明確定的時間是今年 延到今年九月"},{"start":1403.873,"end":1416.255,"text":"5.563月其他的9月全部都可以入企你們去年也是很拍胸脯保證12月報告委員我記得我來這段時間沒有跟委員拍過胸脯因為我們這是按照委協書來的"},{"start":1417.708,"end":1445.561,"text":"不是你們沒有拍過胸脯是你們之前已經對外講然後在報告上面也講了就是說可以生產一億發的這個子彈所以今天時間很關心就是我們剛剛提到的就這個部分是到底是誰下定決心我們剛開始提到的包括火藥跟子彈都是有人強調要外購這些東西都是明明我們自己能做的我們自己能做的然後品質還不錯的價格又有優勢的我們偏偏自己要選擇外購"},{"start":1446.781,"end":1451.825,"text":"有些武器裝備我們自己不會做的卻硬要做所以就這個部分包括我們延宕我們的戰力因為高雄市政府事實上就是往後延了這跟疫情沒有關係因為疫情2023年就結束了現在已經2026年了所以就這個部分我們要好好的釐清每一項如果影響我們的戰力到底要怎麼追究責任這個可能所有的今天在場的各位都要負起這樣的責任 謝謝"},{"start":1473.544,"end":1476.747,"text":"陳委員最後補充一句我們的那個前陣營區是有償撥用371億我知道是有償撥用你是賠錢的包括你的土屋包括那個是一個精華區耶人家給你人家給你你如果要這樣子說有償撥用可能還要再去算一算那個到底是賠錢"},{"start":1494.701,"end":1497.983,"text":"還是賺錢好不好你的生殖基金本來應該用在武器裝備彈藥的你們有些把他都拿去挪作他用或者在這個時間上面挪作他用就是像這樣賠錢就是了所以這個部分我們還可以陸續再檢討 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}