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10:44:00","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「臺灣未來帳戶特別條例草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.40534375,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.758468750000002,"end":77.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.31721875,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.48721875000001,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.11096875000001,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.27971875,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.05721875,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.59284375,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.86284375000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.03846875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.74721875,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.83159375,"end":141.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.25346875,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.12659375,"end":144.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.16034375,"end":144.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.13846875000002,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.41096875000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.47034375,"end":196.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.28721875000002,"end":196.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.72596875000002,"end":203.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":206.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":206.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.81721875000002,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.69784375,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.99971875000003,"end":266.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.98096875000005,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.82471875000005,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.62534375,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.29846875000004,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.11909375000005,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.32971875000004,"end":305.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.09284375000004,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.35846875000004,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.75221875,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.91909375,"end":340.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.92284375,"end":354.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.67596875000004,"end":356.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.78096875,"end":360.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.51471875000004,"end":374.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.95971875000004,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.14409375,"end":386.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.62034375,"end":387.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.44721875000005,"end":403.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.38971875000004,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.30409375000005,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.20596875,"end":420.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.07909375,"end":434.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.44409375000004,"end":468.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.75596875,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.16471875,"end":482.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.07159375000003,"end":471.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.02034375000005,"end":473.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.15534375000004,"end":473.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.64471875000004,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.83034375000005,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.84721875,"end":473.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.04409375000006,"end":514.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.68721875000006,"end":499.07534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.70159375,"end":534.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.64784375,"end":537.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.5672187499999,"end":568.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.3090937500001,"end":597.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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有請次長請呂次長"},{"start":16.096,"end":39.069,"text":"郭委員好 次長我想今天藍白提出的版本未來帳戶的內容當中我不曉得部長有沒有仔細去跟他瞭解看過條文內容包圍有有條文內容當中你有沒有看到他第三條當中把金額的部分定義在多少多少我老實說就條文的內容當中我第一個是覺得奇怪是把金額放在這個定義當中"},{"start":40.41,"end":58.957,"text":"另外一個部分定義跟定義之間還有一個矛盾的地方也就是第三條的部分它限定自存自困款每年10萬企業5萬然後到第12條的時候又規定主管機關每年公告調整金額到底是10萬為受限還是主管機關可以調整這又是矛盾的地方是的 沒錯"},{"start":59.897,"end":76.976,"text":"第三個部分在他第18條的部分的說明當中內容當中其實我看得出來藍杯版本是copy這個川普的版本的內容川普的版本內容就所謂的合格投資標的合格投資標的是什麼也不清楚"},{"start":77.837,"end":99.585,"text":"美国的合格投资标的标准跟台湾会相同吗这是第三个矛盾的地方第四个矛盾的地方这基金费用的部分不得高于0.1%就实务上来说台湾没有任何一个基金这ETF的基金代钞的费用是在0.1%的市场上不可能"},{"start":100.485,"end":119.934,"text":"市場上甚至有高達1%的當然 越低當然是越好但事實上是不符合現實因為美國的整個資本市場很大數十兆美金跟台灣的整個資本市場的規模又不同所以說就版本內容當中藍白確實有許多令人訝異的地方"},{"start":120.814,"end":147.692,"text":"但是我也必須說藍白的這個內容當中我們不要全然的否定因為它相對於這個衛福部現在的版本當中它把儲蓄擴充到投資把存量擴充到流量我覺得為什麼會有這樣的概念的出來也就是說既有的賬戶兒少賬戶當中有它的限制的所在一來對象的限制二來整個資金的運用的限制"},{"start":149.213,"end":169.585,"text":"第三呢是不是能夠保底的限制如果我初估衛福部的這個版本內容當中你們夯不夯當以18那每個月最高金額你們有三種金額1250來計算的話也不過拿到5418年後的54萬是算什麼我想加上CPI的部分大家都非常清楚恐怕相對的貶值的不少"},{"start":170.405,"end":184.425,"text":"那衛福部站在整個部本位的角度當中會思考就是說我要濟貧我要針對弱勢兒童我當然可以理解但是我們今天的整個法案的出發點是從一個少子化的一個問題來做出發"},{"start":185.646,"end":205.914,"text":"少子化的問題就不再把過去養育養兒育女的責任視為家庭的責任情況底下變成養兒育女的責任國家也有責任否則的話就不會像衛福部所提的107年到114年你投入了5900多億的原因就在這邊啊就國家也有責任嘛"},{"start":207.514,"end":232.48,"text":"只是說藍白的版本中比較不負責任的部分就不願意讓家庭負責任卻讓國家負擔了過多的責任也就是這個財責的部分讓國家負擔過多這其實是不一定是好的事情也就是比例拿捏的部分去思考說國家跟政府國家跟家庭之間要如何去分擔這個共同的責任這我是同意的但是偏重於哪一方"},{"start":233.42,"end":253.032,"text":"這可能要好好的拿捏跟取捨同樣的道理這個少子化的問題也不應該偏重個別的一個部會譬如講偏重在衛福部我覺得沒有道理啊從國發會高度的角度 高福祖也在這邊啊金管會的角色我認為就應該要提升嘛就應該要提升嘛所以其實衛福部其實不用故步自封"},{"start":254.053,"end":272.971,"text":"你是可以開創一個比較open的一個態度出來就是說你應該去思考如何將既有的這個儲蓄老實講儲蓄是錢啊要怎麼變多錢啊這是重要的嘛那你如果是擔心說投資有風險那如果這樣子勞動基金用錢可以撤掉啦對不對"},{"start":273.892,"end":299.243,"text":"投資當然有風險啊勞動基金以前的成效歷史的經驗市場的法則我們都可以判斷出來嘛所以既然是這樣子我們就大膽的把這個儲蓄開放成投資的一個概念嘛那也不要局限於本部的概念針對弱勢兒童而已嘛弱勢兒童要處理很簡單嘛本席就提出一個版本弱勢家庭由政府權而補助就是保弱勢的方式嘛"},{"start":300.163,"end":324.062,"text":"你就用這種條款就處理掉啦你就說一般的家庭他可能提薄一千二弱勢的家庭就是兩千四這就保弱勢不排戶然後照顧全民的兒童全部的兒童不要分階級這樣的情況底下才能真正全面性的去照顧所謂的這個少子化的一個問題啊"},{"start":325.816,"end":339.982,"text":"如果說國家的資源投入沒有幫助的話世界上沒有任何一個報告這樣寫我們就不願意做的話那相對的邏輯國家資源投入六千億那會有什麼幫助呢難道還要再寫一份報告來思考嗎"},{"start":340.982,"end":356.442,"text":"然後我們只要投放到10歲之後到12歲他要使用的話我們也部分提波限制他的使用用途那18歲之後結清賬戶鼓勵投資的方式來做思考如果要限制用途 當然也OK"},{"start":357.81,"end":374.348,"text":"那管理很簡單啦 管理不用衛福部啦管理只要用經管會的角度來做思考因為成立委員會在經管會這種事情啊 老實講啊非常簡單啊以前的TISA就是一個管理委員會的概念嘛"},{"start":375.169,"end":403.551,"text":"什麼投資標的是適合的反向ETF不適合槓桿操作過大的不適合我們都應該把它排除有一個委員會在審查這適當的一個標的那另外更重要的就是剛剛我提到了要一個保本的概念本期提出一個保本的概念不同於過去兩年的一個定期的一個利率應該再加上CPI的這個年增率通膨的年增率這可能確定保本"},{"start":404.532,"end":418.107,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話一年的經費也不會像藍白的版本高達1423概估上是如此本期概估上大概279億如果是用這種方式來做兼顧一來"},{"start":420.125,"end":433.765,"text":"從儲蓄到投資兩種功能兼具也就是成立一個台灣兒少這個儲投投儲這一個專戶的概念的話這個部長 次長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":434.708,"end":461.013,"text":"包委員我覺得我們確實今天也是來聆聽委員以及各方的意見只要對於民眾有利我想我們都願意來仔細聆聽委員也是確實在這個部分我想這個非常欽佩剛剛也點出很多就是相關的問題但是最重要現在我知道委員現在目前三個重點第一個我們現在目前就是從存量到流量第二個從儲蓄到投資第三個所得上面"},{"start":461.993,"end":481.458,"text":"我們的對象上面也來擴充我想只要是對民眾有利我想我們都願意來擴充之外還有保底然後一部分限制用途的考量也就是說我會鼓勵衛福部還有或金管會或國安會站在一個國家的高度當中提出相對的版本"},{"start":483.138,"end":498.458,"text":"提出一個相對的版本來跟藍白對話當然我也鼓勵藍白應該有相對的雅量等到行政院版本出來本席的版本也在連署當中既然是公共政策 我想召委會這種態度不會討論各一的版本而已"},{"start":499.059,"end":518.673,"text":"我們希望尋求更多的一個共識然後凝聚更好的一個制度能夠化解台灣目前國安的危機來面對這個少子化的問題問題非常的多包括這個呢兒童的部分我本來是用一個當大人ETF的概念它以後可以衍生衍生變成是兒童版TISA的概念"},{"start":519.574,"end":533.964,"text":"TESA的概念當中過往免稅的部分當然我們的護稅署是護稅第一是保護的護這個護稅署一向都是聽到稅就不想要任何的動護稅署署長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":534.844,"end":557.444,"text":"你剛剛講說美國那個訊息你可能要去調整一下啦可能不是你說的這樣子啦但是呢你不如想想日本的這個NISA的部分它的免稅額度NISA 2.0到現在還高達一升當中300萬我們是不是要思考一下兒童的部分把它做放到100萬來思考"},{"start":560.767,"end":587.421,"text":"來突破來作為化解台灣少子化危機上的一個租稅工具的一個調整有沒有可能報告委員不管是美國或是英國現在所謂這個兒少專戶的一些相關設計還有剛才委員提到日本的NISA賬戶他們都是沒有所謂的租就是他們在提撥的時候是沒有租稅優惠他們是指那個所得那個本文"},{"start":588.101,"end":605.642,"text":"那個委員概帖是本金所產生的利息跟資息可以免但不是說他在前頭提撥的時候可以扣除不是前頭提撥是總Totally是累積的概念沒有錯我是累積的概念你至少在這部分把它化解掉嘛"},{"start":606.343,"end":626.471,"text":"化解掉的話會鼓勵大家願意來投入這個賬戶這樣的情況底下我跟藍白之間版本不一樣他是全部幾乎把責任歸附的國家那我們的部分呢是相對的是說當我政府要相對提撥的時候你的自存戶你要先有作為嘛你自存戶先提的時候我再提嘛這財政負擔"},{"start":627.972,"end":655.409,"text":"我相信就會少了很多啦那國家的責任也會有但是國家跟家庭共同來面對這個少子化問題我也希望這複稅署能夠開放心胸我們思考更好的制度好不好謝謝 郭國文委員我們都會配合會配合太好了會配合那也請那個次長次長是少子化的專家啦他剛剛說他是少子化的專家就麻煩一下好好研究一下謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭國文委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}