{"error":false,"id":["167045"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167045,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167045","日期":"2026-01-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-12T11:01:30+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-12T11:20:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:19:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce037e40a56efd2ae83e6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdd53aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:01:30 - 11:20:47","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.10346875,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.06096875,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.86221875,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.751593750000005,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.13096875,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.89659375,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.71846875000001,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.78096875000001,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.16784375,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.72846875,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.01409375,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.76784375,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.48034375,"end":150.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.15909375,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.41409375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.79346875000002,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.43846875000003,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.56909375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.52534375000002,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.79346875000002,"end":236.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.54284375,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.83721875,"end":242.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.71034375000002,"end":259.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.43346875000003,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.83159375,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.13909375000003,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.14721875000004,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.03721875,"end":284.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.99909375000004,"end":285.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.72471875,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.97346875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.10409375,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.12034375,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.76971875000004,"end":296.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.03471875,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.97096875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.03846875,"end":307.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.65846875,"end":307.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.17284375,"end":311.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.25721875,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.52721875000003,"end":307.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.07096875,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.20159375000003,"end":314.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.69096875,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.30659375000005,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.56784375,"end":322.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.98471875,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.05221875,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.15346875,"end":323.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.54159375,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.53721875,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.72284375000004,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.02659375,"end":325.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.98409375,"end":341.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.91596875000005,"end":336.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.59784375000004,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.61471875,"end":343.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.95221875000004,"end":348.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.03159375,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.60534375000003,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.23534375,"end":402.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.47159375,"end":396.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.68534375,"end":405.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.87471875,"end":409.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.16971875,"end":409.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.28346875000005,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.41534375000003,"end":450.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.25159375000004,"end":452.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.34846875000005,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.49909375000004,"end":514.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.07284375,"end":519.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.74721875,"end":528.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.14659375,"end":532.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.65659375,"end":563.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.48721875,"end":564.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.29284375,"end":581.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.9990937499999,"end":593.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.13221875,"end":601.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.75971875,"end":607.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.22284375,"end":614.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.05721875,"end":622.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.7478437500001,"end":634.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.95284375,"end":691.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.9565937500001,"end":695.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.7534687500001,"end":698.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.5209687500001,"end":702.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.97159375,"end":712.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.0503437500001,"end":717.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.28159375,"end":720.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.7453437500001,"end":732.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.1653437500001,"end":749.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.96846875,"end":756.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.4990937500002,"end":764.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.43034375,"end":765.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.67909375,"end":768.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.2778437500001,"end":769.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.6828437500001,"end":782.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.60909375,"end":802.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.4497187500001,"end":812.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.5578437500001,"end":847.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.79721875,"end":853.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.70346875,"end":862.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.9678437500002,"end":880.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.3784687500001,"end":888.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.34784375,"end":894.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.92909375,"end":895.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.9753437500001,"end":909.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.7253437500001,"end":903.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.8728437500001,"end":904.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.46284375,"end":928.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":922.4522187500002,"end":922.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.26159375,"end":936.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":935.69909375,"end":938.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":939.64784375,"end":940.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.08221875,"end":956.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":956.8603437500001,"end":975.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":974.0053437500001,"end":986.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.03721875,"end":986.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":986.17221875,"end":986.4422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.4422187500002,"end":1007.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":986.47596875,"end":987.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":988.8215937500001,"end":989.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":997.6472187500001,"end":998.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1007.01284375,"end":1008.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1007.9072187500001,"end":1010.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1010.5903437500001,"end":1016.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1017.3572187500001,"end":1049.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1050.5503437500001,"end":1056.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1056.7940937500002,"end":1087.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1079.05221875,"end":1079.5753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1087.2534687500001,"end":1087.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1087.2703437500002,"end":1087.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1087.3040937500002,"end":1087.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1087.9622187500001,"end":1088.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1088.02971875,"end":1088.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1088.9747187500002,"end":1089.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1089.02534375,"end":1089.9703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1089.9703437500002,"end":1090.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1090.03784375,"end":1090.9659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1090.9659687500002,"end":1091.0840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1091.0840937500002,"end":1091.2528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1091.2528437500002,"end":1091.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1091.96159375,"end":1100.9559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1092.0965937500002,"end":1092.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1101.3778437500002,"end":1108.0940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1108.75221875,"end":1124.2940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1124.2940937500002,"end":1130.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1124.31096875,"end":1124.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1125.2728437500002,"end":1126.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1126.58909375,"end":1128.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1129.7109687500001,"end":1156.7784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1132.64721875,"end":1134.2503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1155.7997187500002,"end":1158.4490937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":2.39,"text":"主席我這邊有一個程序的發言我想說在我質詢之前我想提一個就是說因為今天的專報找了"},{"start":24.136,"end":39.33,"text":"考試院全序部但是其實今天其實應該要在要找來的是行政院跟內政部因為始作俑者是行政院還有內政部因為剛剛其實吳孝文講沒錯就工都盟說一個毀這個字他說是年度制"},{"start":39.87,"end":54.668,"text":"那我覺得有道理啊因為全世界民主國家你也不會看到哪一個國家三讀通過後的法律行政院不執行包括中華民國已經115年了過往也從來沒有一個行政院院長敢對於三讀通過後的法律不執行那包括到我覺得"},{"start":56.25,"end":74.948,"text":"大家如果不懂的話其實縣市議會大家想一下縣市議會如果議員三讀通過的地方知識條例縣政府不執行看會不會鬧得天下大亂所以我蠻認同剛剛吳志曉委員說毀那個字啦因為怎麼會有三讀通過的法律不執行這個其實我覺得不可思議更何況你說我認為他違憲所以不執行"},{"start":75.569,"end":94.995,"text":"那如果到這樣講 那地方縣政府縣長也可以說我認為你們這自治條例違憲我不執行那就天下大亂完全違反法的明確性還有法的穩定性原則那麻煩下一次如果說在相關的議題在討論的時候是不是我們可以請行政院跟內政部他們要能夠派人來參加"},{"start":96.626,"end":111.964,"text":"我想謝謝吳委員的建議這次邀請上面的確是 也忘記邀請內政部的移民署所以我們接下來還會再安排相關的報告畢竟我們必須要持續的去盯"},{"start":112.484,"end":130.007,"text":"全序部跟考試院為什麼要拖這麼久的時間然後沒有辦法發出審定函我想這是攸關所有退休公教人員的權益那麼這個部分的話我們等到再找時間我們再來做適當的安排專報好 謝謝那我要邀請考試院還有全序部"},{"start":135.509,"end":150.039,"text":"吳委員長請問一下考試院這邊因為你們說在現行法庭作出判決權還有權序部要本於合法合憲原則執行各項作業那請問一下什麼叫做合法合憲 請問兩位"},{"start":152.368,"end":164.88,"text":"就是相關這個法律生效之後這個該執行的部分就會去執行好 那是不是意思就是說其實新法三讀通過總統公佈生效之後只要憲法法庭還沒有判違憲之前本來就應該要來審定跟來發給對不對"},{"start":167.806,"end":194.121,"text":"審定的部分是我們的工作 我們會來處理好 那對啊我覺得你就 那你們其實卓榮泰應該來聽聽看你們在講什麼啦因為他創了一個全世界沒有沒有民主 正常民主國家沒有人幹過的叫做三讀通過後的法律我認為違憲 所以我不執行好 那我再請教一下就是新法有效那權力存在的情況下你們目前的問題是行政作業需要時間這個核定還需要時間是嗎是"},{"start":197.684,"end":209.763,"text":"我第一個問題就是說為什麼這個時間要這麼久要半年 請問你們這個因為我看你們的報告說你們推估需要半年 為什麼"},{"start":211.568,"end":226.333,"text":"這個我跟委員報告這個我們是根據過去的一個經驗譬如說警察條例我們也花了快半年的一個時間因為他需要重新再寫程式然後這裡面還有廠商的一個需求的溝通"},{"start":227.153,"end":241.987,"text":"然後完了以後就需要一個一個還需要去測試測試那個程式一定不會有問題那我們是用那個來經驗那測試的人更多嘛那這樣齁我先尊重你們這個六個月的這個說法當然我個人會覺得說一到現在的"},{"start":243.248,"end":257.518,"text":"那個電腦的效能為什麼需要6個月這是我質疑我第一個我先質疑這個點但第二個我說我尊重部長您的說法但是可不可以麻煩主席麻煩主席才是這一段時間他說要6個月對不對那主席其實對這6個月也是有意見的嘛"},{"start":257.958,"end":279.374,"text":"那我們是不是要求他第一個我們先尊重他們這六個月的要求雖然你我都不認同這六個月但是我們可不可以 是不是說請主席裁示每一個月請全區部或考試院要向我們社會法治委員會提交書面報告進度就說你已經完成多少件的審定了我想這個應該是為了全國公務員一個公平正義這個可不可以請他們做到"},{"start":280.262,"end":287.049,"text":"是 本席也贊同那個吳委員的建議可能要請考試院根據去補每個月要報告到底完成了多少件已經對哪些機關的退休公教人員已經完成審定我想各位報告我們每個月都可以提交進度報告但是這個進度報告不是說那個月完成多少是為了完成到六個月以內要完成審定的極多的步驟"},{"start":302.423,"end":320.173,"text":"我看了第一次的報告我就知道哪裡是要在你們補新規的數據好不好是步驟啦以及你們都完成了多少件嘛你們如果只是步驟我想我們是要整個因為他是要系統完全開放一次作業那我們要一次作業會在六個月裡面最後發出審定函"},{"start":323.115,"end":342.165,"text":"那我想這個委員應該懂我的意思啊那前面就有開始開發我們可能一開始要委託開發就有一個流程所以我說我尊重你們嘛但是你要給我進度啊所以我說我會給進度你們是全國公務員的娘家耶今天你要為了他們的權益你應該是跳出來在前面幫他們擋子彈的人"},{"start":343.726,"end":372.689,"text":"需要我們每個一個月提交一個工作進度這樣好不好我跟主席報告還有跟部長報告你們先提出來我第一個月看你們的報告的方式是什麼如果我有要更精確的數字以及要哪個點我們再直接行文跟你談好不好那我要就是每個月要給我們一個進度否則全國的公務員都不知道你們在做什麼而且我們都覺得為什麼需要六個月那還有本週裡面你們可不可以先把這個"},{"start":374.752,"end":392.653,"text":"先把那個完成的作業計畫跟時程先報到我們委員會來至少我們公開讓全國這18萬名退休的公務員能夠知道不是說半年後再講這件事而是說我們要知道一下你們的將來的做法進度讓我們可以接著監督好不好"},{"start":393.874,"end":409.263,"text":"這個禮拜先告訴我們你的大概結構怎麼做就是你們整個的系統的你們說要什麼要轉換要變更等等相關的執行的步驟麻煩一個禮拜好 謝謝那我要講一個就是一個禮拜之內提供 謝謝"},{"start":410.083,"end":428.636,"text":"好 謝謝 我要講的是說其實我們本來是一個主權在民的國家那主權在民也是憲政的ABC但是我覺得現在政府就是把一個族群一個族群接著丟包所以我看到已經丟包到這樣了我不得不再站出來替大家講話我先講第一個政府先棄養原住民 之前禁法補助"},{"start":429.517,"end":449.135,"text":"法都過了 政府就不編他說我沒有錢我不編第二個 農民啊農民的公糧收購也是啊他說我沒有錢他政府就 你已經過了 他就是不做所以先棄養原住民 再棄養農民現在棄養這些軍警消工教再來呢 下一個會是哪一個族群我不知道 會不會是醫護人員"},{"start":451.498,"end":459.716,"text":"會不會是社工這些現在都是逃難潮你一個國家的運作絕對不是在比說為什麼你護士可以領得比我"},{"start":460.818,"end":482.364,"text":"勞工多 基層的其他工作人員多為什麼你護士可以比我7-11打工的多為什麼可以這樣其實國家不能這樣子比每個人有他的專業他適合什麼樣的薪水的那個range全世界皆然嘛就現在會搞得說一個群組一個族群被他丟包那今天政府就覺得一個蘿蔔一個湯"},{"start":483.724,"end":512.631,"text":"只要有人在這個位置就好 這個人能力怎麼樣 我不在乎所以這幾年我們看到是公務員報考人數越來越少警察報考人數越來越少好的人才都不到公務體系那政府一直跟我說 你有沒有想過勞工勞工收入才多少憑什麼公務員跟我要這個薪水當全世界先進國家對公務員的取材希望走向精英把精英來幫我們擬定最好的政策讓國家一起向上發展就我們的政府不是他只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑就好"},{"start":513.251,"end":531.939,"text":"什麼樣的人才來都可以不懂交通的去幹交通部長反正就不懂這個的去做什麼部長現在變成這個樣子嘛所以只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑這個人是不是專長 他一點都不care所以這就是會讓國家整個制度越走越不好"},{"start":532.739,"end":553.97,"text":"如果我們國家都剩下二流三流的人來幫我們擬定國家重大政策的時候我們很難變成是一流的國家我們這幾年的經濟狀況社會狀況已經很嚴重了我就說我們鄰近的強盛的國家都用精英在找最好的人就像一間公司的治理我都希望找最好的人來當我們的專業經理人"},{"start":555.871,"end":580.888,"text":"結果你今天不說 不用啦 那個專業經理人找這個人來 只要一個月三萬塊就可以你為什麼要找那個一個月要二十萬的然後你再比這個然後好 到最後公司就一團亂這就是我們現在國家的一個狀況 也是我擔心的好 那出了問題之後 政府一個族群 一個族群 一個族群的棄養丟包所以我才希望說站出來守住最後的這一塊我不希望國家整個毀掉"},{"start":582.122,"end":606.676,"text":"社會越來越狀況越來越不好經濟不好我說的經濟是指庶民百姓而不是指經濟的高端階層我們的平均薪資不錯但是我們的薪資中位數很慘但是這些薪資中位數以下的人他們卻是我們現在生小孩或是我們這個社會的最中間的分子就我們現在新生兒出生率剩下0.87請問各位在座的你怎麼對得起我們子子孫孫"},{"start":608.294,"end":622.103,"text":"我們現在國家一年要少多少幾年後剩下人家說再過幾年台灣出生率一年剩6萬個人那我們根本不用等敵人來打我們我們自己就亡國所以我一直覺得說我們到底在創造什麼樣的國家給下一代呢"},{"start":623.803,"end":639.899,"text":"我現在看到整個國家憲政制度整個崩壞以前說五院制衡現在是大家一起來集團來作亂我跟你講行政院帶頭違法不執行三讀通過的法律如此荒謬的鬧劇發生在中華民國"},{"start":640.7,"end":658.335,"text":"第二個 司法院司法院 大法官搞出那個五大於六那個然後講了一大堆亂七八糟的什麼救生員理論自欺騙自欺然後因為我是大法官 我說了算但是我們所有人都覺得你荒謬的鬧劇他也沒有 他也不care啊那司法院的高官來這裡我只不過問他"},{"start":659.175,"end":675.001,"text":"說法律宣布違憲之前人民有沒有遵守的義務他不敢講一直在兜圈子連這個最基本的憲政ABC他都不敢講在兜圈子如果連一個司法人員當法官的人都沒有勇氣對抗不對的事情的時候我怎麼期待國家能夠強盛"},{"start":676.201,"end":702.302,"text":"然後再來 監察院 院長虛位一年多當然他身體因素 我不會有其他的那個啦但畢竟他也是虛位一年多 這是一個客觀的事實又爆出監察院濫用公務車 搞那些公家的資源然後我去監察院 我具裝去那邊檢舉卓榮泰違法 也都沒有下文了好 那現在呢 本來我們最後我覺得最乾淨的一塊考試院跟權需部"},{"start":704.145,"end":729.601,"text":"過往權序部建議說你們應該要撥補什麼預算行政院應該編列但行政院沒有做這件事的時候貴部 貴院沒有跳出來講話就今天反而再跳出來說要趕快要提事先要怎麼樣所以到底公務員的娘家你們你是站在公務員的角度幫公務員爭取權益還是繼續在幫行政院在護航這是我必須我要講出我深刻因為我幹過25年24年半的公務員"},{"start":733.223,"end":749.5,"text":"我沒有辦法 我真的看到這樣子下去我覺得不忍心因為你們對於基層公務員斤斤計較但是呢 破壞整個國家制度的你們卻視而不見所以你現在跟我們講說審定還要半年那我就說 因為"},{"start":751.024,"end":764.675,"text":"我是予以尊重但是我還是希望說這不是一個消極的抵抗這不是一個對於公務員以及對於在野黨的消極抵抗我希望不是這樣所以我才希望你們資料一定要一直拿給我"},{"start":766.736,"end":774.127,"text":"最後我想提一下法務部剛剛次長如果要上來的話法務部剛剛有提到一個點確實剛剛次長講的沒有錯就是在起訴之後的審理期間確實你講的沒有錯"},{"start":783.039,"end":802.448,"text":"這個跟真實發現無關而是你們的重點是放在怕逃亡因為我剛剛再仔細再一次去看你們的報告所以次長您說的這完全正確但是我的意思還是這樣就一個案件已經起訴進入審理中陳生法官他已經所有的卷證資料他都看了但是他認為可以不押可以交保可以限制駐居"},{"start":803.533,"end":826.852,"text":"其實法務部實在是沒有理由用看告去推翻法官他看完卷證資料之後所認為有逃亡的風險所以更何況你們還有一些替代的東西譬如說我們有科技監控等等的方式所以我的草案不是否認被告在起訴之後就沒有逃亡的風險我認為還是有 我自有實務經驗 我認為還是有"},{"start":829.494,"end":846.932,"text":"但是呢 是不是應該讓檢察官在起訴把被告交給法院 接押的時候的接押庭把事情說清楚 講明白之後讓法官自己去決定要不要押所以我說 我們的訴訟制度學美國"},{"start":847.873,"end":862.163,"text":"目前刑事訴訟制度交互結婚選美國但美國他就沒有檢察官在審理中的案件看告這個問題那是不是說我們這個部分應該是把重心放在檢察官檢察官在偵查中"},{"start":863.024,"end":880.354,"text":"他要押人 他要怎麼做我覺得這一定要保障檢察官偵查了這個權益所以有一些人的提案包括其他委員的提案我都不簽 我不認同因為我覺得有一些東西你不能隨隨便便這樣子做但是我認為起訴之後到院方"},{"start":881.734,"end":903.864,"text":"審理逃亡與否這個是法官的全責更何況如果今天這個人跑掉了是法官要擔責任不是檢察官那你憑什麼檢察官可以來決定法官這個裁定是錯的報告委員有權就會有責那今天法官做的這個裁定在檢察官看來這個人還是會逃亡這個人還會繼續來威脅證人那檢察官的認為是繼續要結才是妥當"},{"start":909.847,"end":938.717,"text":"沒有 處長你講錯了檢察官 所以我說接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭論述講清楚 說明白為什麼這個人要繼續押他在審理中檢察官也可以繼續講嘛這個人需要押但是決定權要交給法官來決定而不是讓檢察官可以說不要我們認為上級的法官也要表示意見的機會我們必須抗告以後讓上級的法院來裁判一審的法官我知道這是部裡面的想法嘛但是我要跟"},{"start":939.724,"end":956.092,"text":"那個市長說明一下我認為已經起訴到法院了決定權其實應該交由法官檢察官要盡其所能的把他認為被告可能會逃亡的理由盡量的告訴法官但是由法官來做決定"},{"start":956.972,"end":972.604,"text":"我認為是這樣更何況那個法官是陳審法官這個被告會不會跑掉其實這個法官要擔全部的責任不是檢察官所以你說的全責分明沒錯所以假如法官有權下這個裁定他也必須要有責任去扛這個風險嘛"},{"start":974.065,"end":989.212,"text":"我的意思是這樣我懂委員的意思但是法官扛責任這個對整個社會大眾來講我們考慮的是一個案件最後的結果還有民眾的心理沒關係 這個部分我覺得我很尊重因為次長你也是一線檢察官出色這個部分我們可以溝通將來到我們在討論案子的時候"},{"start":996.576,"end":1016.431,"text":"我提我的草案那您說的也不是完全沒有道理所以我們可以去討論都不要有還是限制次數等等我覺得這就是一個法律上面的研討嘛所以我提我的想法但我也非常尊重法務部的想法我覺得各有各的道理但是你也不能夠否認說其實到法院之後為什麼"},{"start":1017.492,"end":1037.201,"text":"刑事訴訟制度讓檢察官到審理期間不得申請羈押而是由法官才能羈押他有他的道理如果你說我們怕他跑要檢察官要有表示意見的機會那你刑事訴訟制度就直接設計檢察官可以申請在法院審理時可以申請羈押就好了嘛為什麼刑事訴訟制度在法院審理"},{"start":1038.001,"end":1049.366,"text":"的時候不讓檢察官有身體積壓權他也有他的制度的原因所以這個部分將來我希望我們可以做一個實質的好好討論我當然很尊重貴部的一些想法因為"},{"start":1050.578,"end":1074.352,"text":"到審理之後法官比檢察官更怕人跑掉因為跑掉他要背責任的第二個我們國家其實花了很多錢在搞科技監控所以科技監控這塊也是可以彌補很多不能說所有東西都是檢察官認為說這個會跑所以我要押因為認為會不會跑不能當作說我要押你所以我百分之百有理由"},{"start":1075.132,"end":1099.187,"text":"這逃亡風險可是就是勾串證人這一個部分沒有辦法用課金我現在不是在跟你逃勾串我現在一直在講審理中你一直拉到偵查中勾串我沒有講這一塊因為事實上起訴後的被告會施壓要求證人翻供是有的這個我都懂所以我也跟你講所以我們剛剛不是你自己講我們講的你說"},{"start":1101.488,"end":1127.013,"text":"你們並不是在談真實發現這一塊這是您剛說的 對不是在談我理解 因為我看過你們的報告我們在談的是逃亡所以我們現在就逃亡的部分去講啦那至於說勾串之語那個是另外一個議題我並沒有去討論那個議題所以這個部分再麻煩因為我認為說羈押他是法官保留不能把他變回那個檢察官保留最後我講不好意思那個因為今天我們還有其他的委員大家"},{"start":1129.774,"end":1155.719,"text":"第一個我希望起訴的時候把羈押的必要性說清楚我剛剛等吳思瑤等好久你知道嗎第二個我希望你起訴的時候把羈押必要性寫清楚那你擔心有逃亡篡證再犯就具體說明第二個起訴羈押庭要實質攻防檢察官要到庭說明第三個審理中的羈押決定回歸法官的公平審判才是王道謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}