{"error":false,"id":["167060"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167060,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167060","日期":"2026-01-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-15,36-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,36],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-12T09:24:19+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-12T09:34:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0a6fd271a78a89c588a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e90152979bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:24:19 - 09:34:32","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":0.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.06659375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.344718750000006,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.094093750000006,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.61284375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.595343750000005,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.26159375,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.45096875,"end":66.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.46784375,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.73784375000001,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.96534375,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.09534375,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.25534375000001,"end":83.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.50721875,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.00471875000001,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.03846875,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.79346875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.68784375,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.27784375,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.22971875,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.16971875,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.13971875,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.29159375,"end":174.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.22721875000002,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.75284375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.03534375,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.28721875000002,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.78846875000002,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.28159375,"end":238.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.96409375000002,"end":239.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.28034375000001,"end":243.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.40221875,"end":246.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.23284375000003,"end":248.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.03846875000002,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.45534375000003,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.31534375,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.77909375,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.19659375000003,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.31034375,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.23846875000004,"end":281.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.70846875,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.37471875,"end":288.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.99846875000003,"end":290.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.88846875,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.05284375,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.79846875000004,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.44784375,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.28284375000004,"end":308.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.57346875,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.65346875,"end":314.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.80034375,"end":316.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.74096875000004,"end":317.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.12471875,"end":320.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.31409375000004,"end":326.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.03034375000004,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.24909375000004,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.62721875,"e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我們請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":22.313,"end":40.432,"text":"委員好我們想請問一下上個禮拜中國國台辦再次擴大了所謂這個台獨頑固分子的清單又有更多人被列名其上那可不可以在這裡再一次的跟您請教這到底中國為什麼要列名這樣子的一個名單"},{"start":44.383,"end":55.55,"text":"他當然最大的目的就是要製造台灣內部的寒戰效應那他實際上也在針對一些他所"},{"start":57.914,"end":83.668,"text":"類型化 他要把它類型化譬如說政治人物是一個類型現在增加了這個部會首長然後來增加司法官這個類型是 沒錯 司法人員司法人員這個類型他們特別在意的就是有沒有偵辦國安案件那也不是所有偵辦國安案件的檢察官都會列入而是針對某一些他們特別重視的案件"},{"start":84.828,"end":113.265,"text":"所以目前看到是這樣子那你覺得效果如何目前看不到效果但是我必須跟委員報告就是說像他們這樣用一個國家的力量然後去宣布要制裁或是追溯個別的人士個別的人士那我想對於當事人來講可能心理上面都會有一些負擔那這也是他們想要得到的"},{"start":114.942,"end":122.151,"text":"兩副回答得很清楚喔也一下就掌握到我今天特別在這個質詢台上想要跟國人社會再一次強調的確實這個台獨頑固分子這樣子用來恫嚇台灣人民的這個名單喔現在甚至已經擴大到司法人員這是第二次把我國的司法官列名其上"},{"start":133.604,"end":147.83,"text":"那司法官本身我相信他們不足以心生畏懼一定持續秉公辦案但是會不會發生其他的效果會不會有更多的這個狀況大家可以看到中國的手確實是越伸越長甚至到司法體系來了"},{"start":148.61,"end":174.379,"text":"所以我覺得其實我們在各種法治的面向上確實應該要來防治中國這樣各種勢力的滲透中國各種勢力的進入這是今天我藉著這個上個週末比較少人注意到的連司法人員都再次被列明所謂台獨頑固分子清單再次跟國人提出沉重沉重的呼籲大家應該要注意這樣的事情"},{"start":175.299,"end":198.127,"text":"好 那回到我們今天的修法來看的話那其實啊 藍波我想請問一下其實反滲透法上路到現在已經是六年多了可是因為反滲透法它其實主要的目的是在禁止台灣民眾接受中國等境外敵對勢力的指示委託或資助並且一二三四五"},{"start":198.547,"end":218.197,"text":"列明的很清楚只有目前在目前的法規裡面現行法裡面只有五種類型所以上路六年到現在你覺得我們現在的成效如何甚至本月也有委員直接說啊從民國一百一十二年到一百一十四年啊這麼長的期間啊八成以上的都其實是不起訴啊可見這部法沒什麼用處吧那您認為呢這部法到底還不應該存在還是我們要怎麼面對它"},{"start":228.82,"end":248.227,"text":"我不會認為這部法沒有作用啦那有的時候起訴但是判決無罪並不代表真的無罪所謂判決無罪只是說你沒有辦法證明他有符合法條規定的罪證而已"},{"start":249.093,"end":262.745,"text":"那現在的我覺得反滲透法主要它的問題出在兩個第一個它所規定的要件是非常的特定"},{"start":264.366,"end":288.333,"text":"就只有五種而已啊對 非常特定譬如說剛剛黃捷委員所提出來他針對選罷法的選罷法的部分那就是針對說你已經登記參選了是然後我如果在你已經登記參選以後然後我捐錢給你或者什麼用資金資助你那個才算但是還沒登記參選之前不算那就算黃捷委員的所講的你參選人是過了"},{"start":289.053,"end":307.941,"text":"但他還是可以再早一步再更早就把就把資金到位所以現在問題就是說反滲透法他所規定的東西就是說中共的手法他永遠是比我們快我們今天不管定了什麼樣的規定他都可以從我們的規定之中找到漏洞"},{"start":308.641,"end":332.852,"text":"去處理所以這個是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說反送中法所規定的這些罪行這些罪行其實在我們看來是遠遠不夠的因為反送中法其實它主要規定的是這些政治活動競選然後它有關社會秩序的部分它就是它是屬於所謂聚眾鬥毆或是"},{"start":334.833,"end":347.119,"text":"恐嚇公眾等等但是我們現在看到的很多那個滲透的類型他是叫你去製造謠言他是叫你去打人或是去潑妻"},{"start":348.87,"end":366.25,"text":"不只啊甚至是可以說對於我們的物價產生波動這種訊息也可以啊或者是在救災防治的時候擴大我們的災害降低政府應變的策略等等製造對政府的不信任這種都是啊所以今天委員所提出來的各種各項的罪行"},{"start":367.071,"end":394.706,"text":"我認為都是從這陸委會的立場來講我們都是樂觀其成但是我還是要必須提醒大家今天不管任何一個因為我們的罪行的列舉是有限罪行的列舉是有限但是中共可以叫這個他在地協力者或他的滲透的對象所去做的事情是無限的他今天如果是去對於某一個人物他要叫人去剖欺"},{"start":395.889,"end":421.885,"text":"他去剖欺可是這個東西在我們刑法裡面剖欺甚至不算是什麼罪那但是他會造成這樣心理恐懼所以我覺得反滲透法的這個主要的問題不是在於這個法律有用或沒有用而是基於我剛剛所講的一些問題他會無法跟得上中共翻新的腳步"},{"start":422.785,"end":446.825,"text":"那還有一個最重要的問題是我們常常在法院在判的時候他都必須要去證明說你是受到對面的指示才來做這些事可是你往往那些指示的範圍或是對象是曖昧不明的那個曖昧不明就是說他是某某公司的負責人或是什麼單位或是如何他說他不是不屬於中共黨政軍這樣"},{"start":448.286,"end":474.808,"text":"所以我覺得反滲透法它還是有用但是我們要討論一下怎麼樣把它完善副主委因為我覺得你這段話非常的完整清楚又重要所以我幾乎把時間都讓給你了但是我還是覺得是這樣就是您剛剛說的話的部分我想要再做一個整理並且強調我不認為反滲透法是沒有用處的我相信您剛剛也沒有這樣說你認為是還是有用的"},{"start":475.248,"end":493.801,"text":"我覺得這一步法第一是確立我國國家的態度不容許境外等敵對勢力利用各種方法進入到我國國內破壞掉人民對政府的信任破壞社會的秩序第一個這步法是一個態度所以應該要必須要能夠完整"},{"start":494.281,"end":518.947,"text":"建構 這第一個 但第二個呢 確實包括我們剛剛在講說反省鬥法裡面 我們最大的這個目標是在確保我們的選舉行為 我們的公投行為也就是民主社會裡面非常重要的選舉公投這樣的意志 這樣的制度是可以完整的但任何有從事實務的人都知道所謂的選舉 所謂的公投 那是一個非常長時間的行為不是只有規定選舉期間的那幾天"},{"start":521.888,"end":545.224,"text":"絕對不是這樣的期間而已也不是你成為候選人以後才叫做選舉期間民主社會的選舉期是非常長的所以我們在執行了6年之後的反滲透法讓我們看到了現在這部法的困境因此我們要把這一個部分漏洞的部分給補起來所以才會有各個委員提出而且很遺憾的是喔都只有民進黨委員的版本啊"},{"start":546.505,"end":572.662,"text":"今天的使用法裡面全部都是民進黨委員提出的版本在對期間也好對身分別也好對行為類型也好我們做了一個更明確的規定這更明確並不是並不是加強對人民的控管而是把事情建構清楚讓大家能夠各司其職各守其位我想這是很清楚的事情我舉第一個例子的話就是應該是說像我們的這本提案書裡面的第一個"},{"start":574.484,"end":595.763,"text":"黃婕委員然後不是 沈伯陽 林楚茵和羅美玲委員提案我們都有共同簽署的像我自己也有簽署的就是在六之一條裡面對於剛剛謠言的部分我們就明確列舉了哪一些法條的這些行為你不應該散佈錯假訊息我想這是很清楚的事情我也希望等一下後面質詢的委員呢不要"},{"start":596.744,"end":612.014,"text":"亂了這個主題不要把這個部分我們修反滲透法又如同上一個禮拜修國安法一樣認為是在前置人民自由前置人民的行為我覺得這是完全錯誤的說法那我的時間用完了我先到這裡謝謝副主委謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}