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10:54:07","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.41784375,"end":8.974718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.14346875,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.847843750000003,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.086593750000002,"end":42.252218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.70784375,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.65221875,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.94284375,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.35409375,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.80096875000001,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.91846875,"end":72.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.01534375,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.75784375,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.16471875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.12659375000001,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.31471875000001,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.57096875,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.19096875000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.24909375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.26034375,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.78596875,"end":137.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.97096875,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.84846875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.09659375,"end":149.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.83034375,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.02846875,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.30659375000002,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.43221875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.61784375000002,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.97221875,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.68909375,"end":173.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":173.32034375,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.94409375,"end":178.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.39971875,"end":178.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.53471875000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.02409375000002,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.64409375000002,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.23409375,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.74409375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.42721875,"end":196.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.78096875,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.06784375,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.45159375,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.20659375000002,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.14284375000003,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.69096875000002,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.21596875,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.69909375,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":234.37409375000001,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.89596875,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.30034375000002,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":247.31721875000002,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.59846875,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.89784375,"end":258.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.06221875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.75721875,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.50909375000003,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.64784375,"end":311.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.17221875,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.21409375,"end":315.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.21784375000004,"end":318.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.17096875000004,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.60534375000003,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker"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這個法務部有請加法務部參事好 這個早安啦"},{"start":23.974,"end":46.75,"text":"我們今天召委排定反滲透法的相關的詢答當然是因為很多民進黨委員有提案就是說反滲透法目前沒有辦法填補所謂的國安漏洞所以大部分提了很多不管是國安法庭的設置也好或者是加重罰則等等的一些方向希望透過修法來提高國安防護的一個等級"},{"start":48.807,"end":73.108,"text":"問題是這樣子的齁 這個去年3月 賴清德總統其實就召開了記者會講說有所謂的五大統戰威脅還有賴17條 17條因應策略其中就有國安法 上禮拜討論的反滲透法 兩岸人民關係條例等等的一些修正案那行政院從去年3月到今天大概8 9個月 快一年了嘛快一年了 10個月了齁 那"},{"start":73.829,"end":95.638,"text":"國安法上禮拜當然是因為有願版所以重新進行了詢答的程序那後面還要再召開所謂的公聽會那我今天看今天排反滲透法的相關的一個質詢但是看起來還是都只有民進黨委員提案的相關的一個版本而我看了一下各部會提出的這個書面報告很多對於委員提案的版本大概也都有一些不同的意見"},{"start":96.638,"end":105.763,"text":"說要漸行再酌或者是說並不一定有立法這樣子的一個必要那我想請教一下這個行政院版會推反滲透法嗎"},{"start":108.595,"end":129.195,"text":"好 謝謝委員 垂詢因為反省政法本身它是屬於行政院的法規不是法務部管的法規不過法務部身為行政團隊的議員那如果行政院這邊有希望我們這邊來做協助研議或者是說我們這邊本與志全發現有什麼條件需要建議的話"},{"start":131.616,"end":154.407,"text":"應該會有相關啟動研議的作為但是因為目前還沒有收到行政院明確的指示所以我們目前是還沒有具體的條文出來好 這到底哪一個單位來如果要有院版的話是由哪一個單位來處理的國安局嗎 還是內政部 還是陸委會三個一起上來好了你們討論一下會不會有院版好不好我們要聽具體的答案好 副主委有請"},{"start":163.168,"end":189.931,"text":"我想經過今天的討論之後各位委員的所有的提案我們都會帶回去包括不管在野黨還是執政黨的立委的意見那我想執政團隊應該會有一個方案出來好 內政部呢大概都一樣啦因為這個反省團內容其實很多部會啦我想這個當然如果願有指示我們都會來配合來 國安局"},{"start":191.605,"end":217.801,"text":"法委員如果有需要本局提供相關資源或意見我們也會請你協助好 謝謝問題就是這樣這些法案其實在我印象中第一會期就已經進來了也就是說各委員的 民進黨委員提案的版本就已經進來了那其實去年3月總統開記者會然後一直到現在今天各單位的回答還是說如果願有指示我們來做一下調整今天會帶回去研議等等"},{"start":218.241,"end":242.342,"text":"那這樣其實啊 就 問題就來了嘛到時候會不會今天詢答都答完了之後到時候又跑出一個願板然後大家又要重新進行程序這我們希望大家審慎一點前期的溝通 既然要做總統都有指示了 就仔細一點來做啦來副主委還有話要補充嗎就是各位委員今天講的各種意見我們都會拿回去參考所以請各位委員今天多多指教"},{"start":243.363,"end":257.423,"text":"就是說就內容的部分 多多給我們意見好不好 謝謝對啊 因為看起來默契有一點點不太好啦 我提醒一下要修當然是可以 要討論當然大家就健康的來討論 好不好好 那我們來針對法案的內容 我們來再做一下做一些想法 這個"},{"start":259.165,"end":278.537,"text":"因為你現在問題是這樣 因為現在沒有行政院同一個版本所以每一條每一條要細問 時間也不夠用啦那我就直接講這個東西過去被大家詬病的地方其實就在於就是說你很難真的去變成定罪上的困難嘛包含剛剛副主委都講說起訴但判決無罪不代表真的無罪 欸這還蠻誇張的"},{"start":280.612,"end":296.988,"text":"我當然知道你的意思是要強調定罪上的困難但法律明確性等等相關的保障他也是要兼顧的我想大家是很清楚的那關鍵就是在說你很難證明什麼叫被滲透嘛對不對以實務上來講大家去講說比如說中國大陸啊最常被大家拿來講所謂的滲透啊"},{"start":298.69,"end":325.901,"text":"就是實務上 比如說中國大陸啊 透過台商啊給予政治獻金 找到政治人物就聽差辦事這就聽起來言之成理但那其實非常去脈絡化的一種說法為什麼這樣說呢因為這樣說那很多人恐怕都要被辦啊 對不對比如說這個我們有紅孩兒事件 對不對這個即便大政黨不同 講法不一樣可是有沒有在中國大陸有經商的事實恐怕是有的 對不對那這樣經商的事實有沒有成為選舉的支持"},{"start":326.704,"end":331.671,"text":"你很難證明有可能有有可能沒有所以到最後都鬼打架不管是哪一黨哪一派"},{"start":332.662,"end":361.228,"text":"就到底有滲透沒滲透通通講不清楚這也是為什麼我們今天在談反滲透法修正的時候之所以不管是國安法、反滲透法、良人民關係條約大家都強調明確性原則的原因就在這個地方因為你一不小心就會跨過自由的紅線嘛造成的壓迫我們如果給予行政機關太大的裁量空間對不對讓梁副主委變成法官這樣子不太行啦 對不對給予太大的裁量空間反而是對於司法公信力的再一次的打擊啦"},{"start":362.148,"end":387.443,"text":"所以即便我看了一下今天大部分的修法都說我要有國安法庭我要加重罰則我要怎麼樣來做處理可是問題是都沒有觸及到這個法案核心的問題也就是你到底要怎麼去界定這件事情嘛那到了最後很有可能你修完之後還是因為無法界定而無法定罪那修了等於白修或者是說你因為界定的時候觸犯了政治的紅線他遭到很多困難這就是為什麼我今天一定要提說如果要審這個法案一定要有院版"},{"start":388.143,"end":413.426,"text":"一定要一個明確的基準如果各委員有各行其事利益都良善本席願意相信這不同黨派都沒有關係但是核心的問題沒有辦法被解決也沒有統一版本來做討論的時候恐怕會有一些困難這是本席要做的第一個提醒第二個是有關於這個國安法庭我想要問一下好了 梁副主委內政部應該可以回了但是這個法務部跟司法院好不好國安局可以回法務部跟司法院我要問一下國安法庭的部分"},{"start":415.37,"end":443.283,"text":"這個是這部法案目前有的版本裡面比較敏感的地方啦好 大家都覺得說 ㄟ 一樣啊 這聽起來喔 對啊 國安相關的案件交給國安相關素養的法官來判對 一樣言之成理 但它同樣有實務上操作的問題我想請教一下法務部跟司法院現在民進黨委員在提案說明等等都有講就是說 你現在違反國安法相關法案的這個犯罪最後都輕判了事你們同意都是輕判了事這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":447.53,"end":467.707,"text":"謝謝委員催詢那我這邊先檢驗回來後面可能要請司法院先生補充首先就草案的第11條之一的立法理由裡面有提到刑度的分析那這個是應該是根據本部在網路上有公開的相關的統計數據那這個當然是客觀的不過因為我這邊要補充說明的是"},{"start":468.528,"end":494.608,"text":"這個客觀數據的解讀你必須要放在它是一個新的法所以它起訴也都是在最近這幾年很多案子其實還沒有確定都還在路上所以裡面包括了剛剛有委員提到的桃園的某民眾被起訴的案子以及南部也有好幾件其實都是重判的刑度事實上現在是上訴在最高法院之中這邊可能就這個數據的部分"},{"start":496.209,"end":516.942,"text":"要補充說明 因為還沒確定 所以沒有納入統計所以其實也沒有都輕判嘛 對不對最近幾個 比如說共諜的案子其實也都有用國安法 七年八年以上對不對是有區分情節的 是有區分情節的嘛 好那現在民進黨委員也擔心啦 我想也是善意提醒啦就是說現在刑事法官恐怕缺乏國安相關知識"},{"start":517.996,"end":529.108,"text":"這樣子的一個 我姑且講提醒 你們認嗎你們覺得現在的法官 司法院也好 法務部也好從你們的角度 現行的法官缺乏相關 國安的相關知識嗎這是司法院回答 法官嘛 對不對謝謝委員崔群"},{"start":532.216,"end":548.272,"text":"那办理国安军事案件的法官其实现在都已经有专庭或专股的办理而且每年至少从109年到去年每年都有国安研习会的专业课程的培训"},{"start":548.892,"end":574.082,"text":"那甚至去年114年還一年有兩次的這個研習會的培訓分別是實務界跟學術界都有相關的這個教育課程所以法官基本上都已經具有相關的這個專業了而且一年至少有12個小時的這個訓練課程還有剛剛委員所問到是不是都有輕判那本院當然就尊重法官的這個審判權的行使"},{"start":575.441,"end":593.159,"text":"那就譬如說在去年114年來說地方法院反滲透法有三人都是判到超過六個月的刑度甚至高等法院有一人判到超過兩年的刑度所以未必都是所謂的輕判的狀況以上就簡單回覆委員 謝謝"},{"start":597.984,"end":627.28,"text":"好 所以你剛剛我簡單講就針對國安法庭這一部分其實你們已經有專股跟專門的訓練也有在辦課程嘛 對不對是的啊所以我想如果單純只是哪怕只是題點的角度你講說缺乏國安知識的專業訓練我覺得好像對司法院也有一點不公平好 我拉回來講這就是為什麼嘛就是之所以行政院一定要有一個明確的態度的原因就在這個地方嘛很多時候認知不一樣委員提案恐怕是這個利益良善但是實務上你在行政端其實並不見得有這樣的需要那在政治上面由於國安法"},{"start":627.86,"end":655.852,"text":"國安法庭可能是這部法裡面最有政治爭議的部分因為你大概想到國安法庭的時候不免就想到納粹人民法院的歷史對不對因為當初可以本來理論上應該要重判但我不可得所以我要有專門的一群人去做專門的審判然後到了最後一個不小心跨過那條線他其實就變成一個濫權變成一個打壓人權跟破壞法治的這樣一個狀況本期還是要把醜話講在前頭如果行政端這邊沒有辦法統一口徑把一個明確的版本弄出來"},{"start":656.312,"end":677.338,"text":"大家針對這個版本去做有效的討論的話那很有可能到最後又陷入這樣一個政治的爭議裡面我本期是認為期期以為不可啦當然我們都贊同強化一些反滲透相關的一些政策也好法制面的相關一些作業也好但我們一樣這跟國安法的修正一樣謹慎謹慎再謹慎啦 好不好希望行政院到底會不會有版本這個可能"},{"start":678.078,"end":688.044,"text":"你們會後要提供一下說明啊要不然這個要不要審下去恐怕也是蠻麻煩的一件事情不管是對於我們來講 在野黨的委員來講或者是對於召委排案來講希望你們加強一下默契 好不好好 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}