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謝謝主席 那請我們石部長以及我們這個國發會副主委請部長副主委廖委員好"},{"start":20.103,"end":35.419,"text":"想要先請教一下部長今天這個議題是蠻嚴肅的那想要請教一下部長今年是10.7萬嘛那你們過去總共花了8年花了多少錢在嫂子女的預算上5931億那連年跌下來那請教一下"},{"start":42.079,"end":67.164,"text":"你認為這個問題嚴不嚴重嚴重啊很嚴重嗎對請國發會主委請問這個副主委高副主委你覺得嚴不嚴重這對於國家未來當然嚴重因為影響整個人口結構非常嚴重是不是有沒有到非常嚴重我覺得它是一個很重要的議題對國家未來發展包含勞動力包含未來基本上我想要跟大家說明一下這個Elon Musk就是特斯拉執行長"},{"start":68.004,"end":94.265,"text":"他最近就說他最近也公開對於南韓的生育率表示很驚訝他還警告如果南韓的生育率持續的低迷未來南韓甚至不需要北韓的這個發動戰爭他人口崩潰就會直接讓這個國家從地圖上消失那之前他對於台灣也有評論過沒有新生兒就沒有文明而且我們的這個出生率是更比比起韓國怎麼樣"},{"start":95.819,"end":117.241,"text":"比前面怎麼樣更糟糕這次是不是更糟糕算是最低了是吧部長要不要這個部長回應一下吧這個差不多了我們跟這個南海韓這兩個國家是是不是算是全球非常低最低可是可以說最低對啦對比南韓糟糕吧"},{"start":118.776,"end":138.337,"text":"正確的數字還沒看到啦那如果是以剛剛已經有很多數據出來啦對啊是吧因為南韓的數據我們還沒看到那是不是已經現在算是前年的話是所以我們比我們差一點啊但是常常網路上說真的好想你南韓啊我們現在的出生率真的贏他了最低啊非常的糟糕"},{"start":139.378,"end":146.765,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長請問一下你對於過去我們的執政黨花了5931億達到這樣的成績你打幾分"},{"start":151.301,"end":170.001,"text":"我覺得我們過去我們也算過這5930億裡面的84%都用在0到6歲那每一個家庭我們認為這個挹注是不是不夠我們要再思考啦所以我想問的是你打幾分成績一直低落身為一個執政黨要負責吧 對吧"},{"start":170.641,"end":190.615,"text":"對於這樣子的事當然你是剛剛當部長沒有多久但是身為一個執政黨一個政府應該要負責吧我們沒有要黨派喔這是如果一個公司的CEO讓他的公司這個所有的表現一直越來越差誰要負責CEO要負責是不是那執政黨是不是要負這個責你們的你對於這樣的表現到底你打幾分"},{"start":191.475,"end":209.282,"text":"我想我們還有努力的空間我們不應該給自己打分數但是我們要持續的努力這個還有很大的部長如果不願意面對就是不敢打分數不願意面對就不會解決問題今天很多人說這個多久以前提過然後這個有相關的法案"},{"start":210.302,"end":231.675,"text":"但是我們在這段時間審法案以來就知道沒有壓力你們根本就是在拖嘛一直在拖嘛沒有想要給一個方向沒有想要有創新的思維那今天就又說我們要再研議要再花多少時間幾場公聽會我不知道我們國家有幾年可以再等喔真的我不知道我非常語重心長喔"},{"start":233.328,"end":259.916,"text":"所以今天我可能要主席要多花一點時間就是其實我想要跟你說我們現在是不是可以好好討論嘛大家都想要好好討論嘛所以本席就靠這個時間來好好的講而不是用一些知諱末節想要拖延大家來面對這件事情或者是不去做結構性的改變不去做創新的方式你們沒有任何創新的方式就只有一直這樣子下去啊那你再補多少錢進來都不夠嘛 對吧"},{"start":261.636,"end":272.566,"text":"那你也沒辦法一次補到位所以我必須說現在我們少子化對策其實是過度依賴短期的所得維持的手段所得維持的手段因為"},{"start":274.059,"end":294.499,"text":"因為我沒有否認像我也贊同部長說的現在的每一分錢我覺得花在都是必要的支出可是你沒有解決問題啊所以你需要雙軌甚至是另外的思維也必須把這個所謂的面對資產價格膨脹或者是階級固化的結構性的挑戰其實你單純的這個給付這個"},{"start":297.942,"end":318.358,"text":"這個過去的手段是沒有辦法對於年輕世代未來經濟沒有辦法解決他們對於未來經濟的深層焦慮喔所以今天我們討論這個TFA就是台灣未來賬戶其實我們想要表達的事情是這樣子的模式是希望透過政府早期介入跟長期的複利效應"},{"start":319.847,"end":332.415,"text":"旨在要為每一位台灣的兒童建立起起碼的資本存量這不僅是教育基金他更希望可以破除現在的這個代季的貧窮循環的關鍵問題"},{"start":336.468,"end":355.704,"text":"所以我想要說其實我們要將這個預算從消耗性的支出的思維的思維轉化成這個資本性的投資希望可以讓這個社會的投資報酬在未來是可以回來的所以我們的概念應該是叫做為我們國家的下一代為他們存股"},{"start":357.12,"end":385.378,"text":"國家為了下一代存股這樣子的一個戰略的思維所以我想我想要回應一件事情大家在拖在想說沿路討論其實已經討論很久了所以維持現狀其實就是現在最大的財政風險維持現狀就是現在最大的財政風險所以我們進一步來看現在我們的社會結構雙重危機我會稍微快一點極端的財富分配不均以及崩潰的出生率"},{"start":387.033,"end":412.737,"text":"所以我想要說一件事情就是過去這段時間以來喔台灣的我想要請教一下你們知不知道現在貧富差距變多少有不同的算法一個是前20%跟後20%66.9倍我講給你聽啦但是如果依照過去這個民進黨在執這個執以馬政府時期的用前5%後5%你知道多少嗎"},{"start":413.817,"end":416.941,"text":"那個是財稅資料嗎對對所以150倍對150倍對不對對嘛你要不要回答一下是不是"},{"start":421.974,"end":446.796,"text":"好你們不知道但是我不想在這裡糾纏喔就是這個數字因為你剛剛也點頭所以事實上我們希望做到的事情其實剛剛這個我想部長也有講到為什麼你說這個現在少子化你們去研究他們從這個你覺得現在主要原因是不婚嘛是不是不婚那不婚背後的深層的考量是什麼這個還要再進一步研究啦"},{"start":448.09,"end":462.225,"text":"我跟你說啦數據的統計分析現在我們少子化的國安危機是從不想生到養不起到你剛說的不敢婚就是不婚不敢婚所以他背後有很大的一個因素是經濟的不安全感"},{"start":463.803,"end":482.914,"text":"你們過去投資了這麼多你已經投資了5931億了結果他們是很多的調查或者是網路的輿論也都表示年輕人不敢婚不生的核心原因不是因為討厭小孩是深層的經濟恐懼他擔心一個是階級複製的焦慮"},{"start":485.41,"end":514.743,"text":"一個是育兒成本的長期性他不只是短期你補貼他這些短期的消費他對於他長期包含教育居住創業等等高昂的資本支出他是一個長期投資他都覺得你現在的這個每個月多少錢他算是杯水車薪啊所以你現在的補貼政策你頂多叫做給他一個起碼生存的生存的一個重點而已你只是給他一個起碼最低最低位所以你沒有辦法刺激到他想生嘛"},{"start":516.417,"end":540.42,"text":"對不對好 下一頁好 再下一頁所以其實剛剛有提到不敢生不敢婚剛剛當然包含這個經濟的問題包含了居住正義的問題但是今天不展開居住正義我們就回來這裡嘛剛剛就講所以你們過去投資了5931億結果全國最低這就是現在的成果所以你要面對啊 部長你要打分數啊完全不及格啊花了這麼多錢那下一頁"},{"start":542.366,"end":570.712,"text":"好 所以剛剛也有講到基本上都是用這種所謂的補貼思維在做那我們不是否認補貼 補貼要持續做可是你一定要有創新的角度來切入嘛所以這就是我們講的 過去你是一個消費型的補貼你缺乏了負力思維 甚至你有可能資源錯置因為審計部的報告也指出許多計畫的項目執行率低甚至淪為所謂大傻逼 缺乏戰略高度"},{"start":572.597,"end":578.587,"text":"所以這個部分真的要給你們好好的建議好好的討論針對這個你有沒有什麼想要表達的"},{"start":581.307,"end":603.08,"text":"對 這個確實我們要有更開創性的思考沒有錯是 所以今天我們就要跟你討論這個開創性的思考所以台灣未來賬戶我覺得不要覺得說是哪一個政黨提出或是不是執政黨提出就不想接受我覺得大家今天真的也是我也覺得大家都很關心我們大家就好好討論所以我們進入細節譬如說這個基本上我們政策核心架構"},{"start":604.261,"end":620.221,"text":"TFA提出的我想不僅是一個福利政策我們更也是一個整體戰略思維的金融工程我們也希望透過這樣子的力量來解決社會問題那當然包含這上面有的適用對象0到12歲台灣的孩童大概是226萬"},{"start":622.58,"end":637.98,"text":"那普遍性的福利也會打破所謂排富條款標籤化的效應喔這個也是一個可以思考的點因為你們剛剛一直會說他是不是要把錢只放在什麼中低收入戶啊低收入戶啊等等的其實等一下也會討論到目前成效就是不好"},{"start":638.701,"end":664.815,"text":"對吧 成效就不好然後再來就是政府提撥嘛當然就是有個啟動資金剛剛很多委員也講到可能啟動資金稍微高一點1100多億可是憑良心講啊你們在補貼電費這個想要補貼台電隨便也是兩三千億然後買這個軍購也是隨便一開就1.25兆我實在是沒有辦法想說為什麼這1000多億你覺得投資在我們台灣的下一代會覺得好像沒有錢或是做不到"},{"start":665.655,"end":682.82,"text":"然後第三個點是家長提撥他是自願性質的不是說強制要求他提撥而且他也有個額度的上限那再來資金的管理是中央集中管理我覺得就是類似我們可以比照一下勞退基金的模式"},{"start":683.3,"end":704.302,"text":"那投資標的當然就是追蹤這個比較大型的好這穩定的也不會說被說什麼個股操作的風險吧他就是等於是跟著金融市場在成長的情況之下去去做成長好所以還有最後當然有個提領的限制啊那這個部分當然很多細節我認為都可以開放式討論找出更佳的方案"},{"start":705.285,"end":726.469,"text":"好那所以我就要進一步講一下不知道這個部長有沒有知道過去台股歷年喔因為你們大家會講說當然有高高低低啦會有高高低低有時候這個賺多一點有時候賺少一點有時候虧錢可是其實我們要用長遠來看我想這個勞保基金也都是這樣講所以歷年來他平均的利潤是多少"},{"start":728.221,"end":744.737,"text":"這個我沒有在買賣股票對好你不知道嘛那我這裡就給你看嘛其實基本上如果是悲觀的情境4.0%好那就是大概悲觀的情況是4%那如果複利下去的話可能是24.5萬"},{"start":746.579,"end":763.256,"text":"那再來保守情境就是好一點5.9%5.9%那最後就是可以是大概28萬那再來當然也有算法是可能33.9萬56萬那中立的話是8%那如果用現在台股過去的歷史平均11.9%如果他這當時都參與進去的話他現在是有85萬"},{"start":769.642,"end":794.15,"text":"對 那當然這是歷史數據我們就是深刻討論所以即使在最保守的情境之下18歲時累積的近三十萬的資本 資金對於富裕家庭他可能是 當然可能是零用錢但對於弱勢家庭的青年他這筆錢是有可能改變他的命運的資金他也足夠可能支付他的學費 生活費或者是作為這個技職創業的第一筆資金"},{"start":795.971,"end":807.864,"text":"而且更重要的是什麼如果他台股維持歷年的歷史表現的話他的這個資金是徹底改變一個年輕人的起跑點他可能不會一出社會就背負學債"},{"start":809.779,"end":825.668,"text":"甚至他如果沒有家長可以給他一個什麼房屋的頭期款他這個部分他也可以去做那他有個房現在剛剛講你不敢婚嘛不敢婚背後就當然就是他可能買不起房然後婚了之後他可能養不起家嘛這是一個也很大的因素"},{"start":826.648,"end":838.063,"text":"所以我想我們今天要討論的就是說我們這個制度的設計的創新啦我們希望從這個消費型的福利轉向投資型的福利的概念思維的轉變我們要從救濟變到投資"},{"start":842.228,"end":857.446,"text":"因為傳統社福可能一直是比較屬於是補貼給魚吃那這個現在的這個設計是希望也給他一個釣竿給他資本把兒童視為國家未來資產而且而不是財政的負擔因為你們一直在講類似財政的負擔"},{"start":858.507,"end":885.598,"text":"那再來另外一個觀念就是從短期到長期我們要跳脫年度預算的短視其實它是一個長期承諾那當然這個具有一定的挑戰性那對於國家發展但是它至關重要剛剛講到非常嚴重未來沒有人再參與在這個市場上我們等於是沒有文明那當然再來就是一個金融的包容性因為要透過國家的力量要讓這個原本被排斥在金融市場之外的弱勢兒童能夠"},{"start":886.718,"end":906.135,"text":"零門檻的參與資本市場享受經濟成長的紅利這也是為什麼我們剛剛前面要提到貧富差距越大是因為真的有參與這樣所謂的金融市場的太少了嗎太少所以這段時間貧富差距變成150倍是誰的錯我覺得就是政府沒有想到這樣子的事情的錯好再來"},{"start":910.475,"end":934.902,"text":"我想我們剛剛講到也有一直有人講到說現在衛福部就有相關的這個計畫啦那我就想要告訴你們說現在目前為止從數據顯示他的局限性開戶率的瓶頸8年的推廣到2024年底開戶率66%嘛那代表說有三成多的小朋友需要的弱勢兒童根本沒有被覆蓋到"},{"start":936.721,"end":951,"text":"再來存款的中斷率高即使開了戶也常常有發生家庭的這個經濟結局斷供喔好雖然所以其實這還是一個很大的問題再來是資金規模的限制啊好那這都是現在"},{"start":952.242,"end":966.62,"text":"主要你們存在所謂的這個定存利息所以你們沒有投資增值的功能所以在通膨環境下他基本上他在前方那裡是被吃掉的所以我想這個你們應該都要知道應該都要去檢討"},{"start":968.206,"end":996.594,"text":"那再來剛剛有一隻有講可能有人我們當然可以討論你怎麼排富要不要排富可是我想要說其實現行的制度你在做這樣子的事情的時候你也有一個副作用什麼樣的副作用呢有三個第一個是標籤化的效應其實申請該帳戶等於是某種程度上也會承認自己是貧戶啊對於有一些邊緣戶或者是邊緣戶你覆蓋不到之外自尊心強的家庭也可能就沒有就會卻步他可能就不參與"},{"start":998.334,"end":1012.715,"text":"那所以你基本上你福利未達再來第二個貧窮陷阱我想這也不用多贅述第三個還有一個龐大的行政積合成本所以你們之前做很多事就是就是這個部分也是要考量的所以"},{"start":1013.416,"end":1038.713,"text":"總而言之我想還是一樣現行的制度是一個救助思維的產物你僅能夠說勉強維持底線但是我們今天討論的TFA台灣未來賬戶它是一個發展思維的產物我們希望能夠為所有的兒童創造向上流動的動力這兩個層次是不一樣所以我認為它不要互相排擠那你應該要開創新的思維"},{"start":1039.754,"end":1066.694,"text":"所以剛其實後來也有講到啦比如說也有講說英國英國有做啊為什麼為什麼他取消了我想這個就是你們要去用功一下嘛大家用這個來用短暫的去說因為英國失敗我們就不該做是不對的他為什麼錯為什麼他做不下去他的管理是去中心化的英國政府他發放貸金券讓家長自行去銀行或投資機構開戶結果導致市場碎片化家長面臨選擇困難"},{"start":1067.955,"end":1080.582,"text":"高昂的手續費 他賬戶分散在私人金融機構 管理成本非常的高昂機構也收取高額的管理費 可能有1.5%嚴重的侵蝕獲利還有一個是賬戶休眠 截至2023年他聽說有17億的英鎊約680億的台幣的資金沒有人認領近百萬的年輕人也錯失了這筆錢"},{"start":1088.866,"end":1100.374,"text":"再來一個是金融素養的落差啦富裕家庭他可能選擇股票型的基金報酬高那貧窮家庭就是選擇現金存款報酬又低好所以這也是他發生的問題好下一頁"},{"start":1101.86,"end":1126.214,"text":"所以當然我們可以去我們現在的設計就是希望說去這個針對他的去中心化跟遺失去做補強所以類似勞退一樣如果他像最近勞退表現不是特別好嗎10幾%平均10幾%那真的是對他們來講是很好的一件事情那再來針對投資落差所以你可以追蹤大盤指數確保他們享有相同的投資報酬率"},{"start":1127.247,"end":1147.452,"text":"好 下一頁好 那當然我們也要參考一下新加坡的這個兒童培育戶頭啦他可能還更靈活一點點這個我們未來都可以去檢討不過這裡時間因素我就不贅述下一頁好 所以這是幾個國家目前有的東西的比較如果到時候部長你們需要的話我再提供給你們那下一頁再下一頁沒關係"},{"start":1150.39,"end":1158.667,"text":"好所以剛剛有講到如果說是接近勞退基金的模式的話事實上很多的問題是可解決的好那下一頁好"},{"start":1162.998,"end":1185.523,"text":"好 所以基本上我們希望的目標是為台灣下一代建立一個國家級股東的身份我們希望國家幫你養孩子也幫孩子存未來這是我們希望的事情那請部長你們不要一開始就抱持著一個說這個好像很多問題不去做的態度因為剛剛你們的報告大概都是長這個樣子都是這個態度我認為你們既然也都覺得"},{"start":1186.843,"end":1206.276,"text":"這個問題非常嚴重請你們用開放的思維然後好好去研究國際的經驗失敗的我們也學習不要人家覺得失敗你就不做成功的我們也借鏡好不好部長可以嗎那你什麼時候可以可以有你們的一個報告或者是版本我們盡快在一個月內也提出我們的分析好謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝部長"},{"start":1214.835,"end":1218.312,"text":"下一位 請李昆城委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}