{"error":false,"id":["167088"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167088,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167088","日期":"2026-01-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-4-26,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[26,20],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、財政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-01-12T13:46:26+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-12T13:56:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce07143a189894f29dd307671192a7c66aae007cc74e276eb87e3ceebef6e54c8ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:46:26 - 13:56:07","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「臺灣未來帳戶特別條例草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.469093750000001,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.85534375,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.872218750000002,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.922843750000002,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.85221875,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.73346875,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.322843750000004,"end":49.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.110968750000005,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.73596875,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.87034375,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.49721875,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.25596875000001,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.61784375000002,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.14471875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.54096875000002,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.72596875000002,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.47659375,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":170.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.24221875,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.78909375,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.17721875,"end":180.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.62784375,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.32784375,"end":184.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.40346875,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.89659375000002,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.46534375000002,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.27534375000002,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.48534375,"end":197.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.09659375,"end":201.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.52659375000002,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.12721875000003,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.31159375000001,"end":229.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.77971875,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.27721875,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.57221875000002,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.62284375000002,"end":250.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.13284375,"end":240.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.57971875,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.73971875,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.94971875000002,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.27034375000002,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.32909375000003,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.30159375,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.75159375000004,"end":314.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.04096875000005,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.86784375,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.59346875,"end":322.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.05221875,"end":323.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.94221875,"end":326.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.51159375000003,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.29909375,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.05659375000005,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.84284375000004,"end":368.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.76659375,"end":373.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.09909375,"end":376.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.05221875,"end":378.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.68909375000004,"end":382.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.27909375,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.40034375000005,"end":418.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.91471875,"end":439.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.01284375,"end":440.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.08034375000005,"end":440.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.27846875,"end":443.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.33721875000003,"end":454.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.67721875,"end":468.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.51471875000004,"end":479.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.68596875000003,"end":483.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.61346875000004,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.15721875,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.03596875000005,"end":523.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.78846875,"end":526.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.1553437499999,"end":529.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.9609687500001,"end":531.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.8803437500001,"end":539.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.1922187499999,"end":535.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.18346875,"end":536.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.71909375,"end":538.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.71034375,"end":541.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.97596875,"end":549.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.0378437500001,"end":551.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.3328437499999,"end":564.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.9722187500001,"end":579.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3203437500001,"end":580.48034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.381,"end":11.542,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":17.337,"end":39.879,"text":"市部長辛苦了 剛剛我想趙偉已經透過他的簡報很完整的分析跟討論就是說我們今天討論這個未來帳戶的一個部分那本席也跟大家都一樣其實我們很關注這個出生率的問題少子女化的問題但我想先釐清一下到底現在此時此刻我們衛福部具體認為說台灣現在少子女化的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":41.465,"end":69.217,"text":"剛剛也跟委員報告我們過去這幾年的努力主要是在支持有婚育的家庭育兒的壓力把它下降所以我們從生育的補助部長你還是沒有聽清楚我的問題你先聽完我的問題因為我覺得這個問題才是最重要的也是今天所有人的報告裡面沒有秀出來的到底我們少子女化大家不生孩子的原因是什麼"},{"start":70.878,"end":85.56,"text":"應該是說我們統計的分析從25歲到44歲就是屬於適合生育的年齡的婦女來看如果有婚姻關係或者曾經有婚姻關係當然生育率是維持住了"},{"start":86.441,"end":111.946,"text":"並沒有特別下降但是在沒有婚姻的在這一段年齡沒有婚姻的他的生育率是很低都是低於1%那從這幾年看起來這個不婚的比例正在持續的上升從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的這個未婚的大概是21%到去年來到新高是52%所以這個部分就很低"},{"start":112.506,"end":138.417,"text":"所以我們這一段年齡的婦女等於是這個拉低了整個生育率統計上就拉低很多人講嘛就是個人的生活價值觀譬如說他晚婚或是不婚的一個改變而造成說他沒有結婚或者是認為是說婚姻跟家庭的觀念改變就是以前認為說一定要結婚但是現在就覺得不一定男生也好女生也好可能都沒有這樣的想法"},{"start":138.997,"end":164.04,"text":"那撇開這兩個因為這兩個面向可能要跟內政部一起合作可能要一起努力變成是說政府要如果說我們認為這真的很重要也認為是說這個是能夠救台灣生育率我們甚至要成立我們甚至要支持鼓勵大家真有互相聯誼但過去其實我們不管是地方政府民政體系也都有做這樣的部分嘛可是本席再拉回來講如果說已經生完已經結婚了"},{"start":164.6,"end":183.645,"text":"他到底不生孩子有很多是父母他結婚但是沒有生孩子的主要理由我們看起來還是最主要是這個育兒的這個成本經濟的經濟經濟的跟機會成本就是未來他教養的部分認為說他孩子能不能不要說"},{"start":185.286,"end":207.813,"text":"這個跟他自己受一樣的苦他可以有更好的一個求學更好的生活更好的環境是不是對啊另外就是機會成本因為他在養育的過程當中可能會喪失的比如說他的升遷機會那麼這個就就業的機會等等這一些這個就是所謂的機會成本所以我們在這一段這個政策裡面還有一段就是需要"},{"start":208.693,"end":231.707,"text":"創造那個友善的職場比方說它更有彈性的運營留停制度更有彈性的上班這些我們有沒有在做我們都有在做嘛對 在我們現在的這個2.0今年開始就是特別把勞動部還有內政部這些都會一起進來要努力創造友善的就業環境"},{"start":233.328,"end":249.329,"text":"你剛提到兩個部分一個是經濟養育額的一個經濟成本一個是機會成本他可能會有他的一個升遷管道那我們現在其實都在做本期為什麼還是要開宗明義問這個問題因為我想要的是如同醫生在看診"},{"start":250.751,"end":265.913,"text":"對症下藥就是我們一定很多的委員在那邊鬼扯然後講明明說未來帳戶是對於全民以及希望能夠解決梢子化問題解決經濟的負擔的相關部分或是給他低桶金但是"},{"start":266.314,"end":286.807,"text":"要故意鬼扯說是什麼跟這個未成年這個低收入戶的這個兒童跟少年未來的教育發展帳戶一樣其實我覺得這個概念是完全不同的因為我們現在在推的兒童跟少年未來教育及發展帳戶是要幫助低收中低收的孩子但他要解決的比較是他們在生活成長過程"},{"start":288.294,"end":312.059,"text":"而現在講的是整體全台灣的出生率本席不會苛責因為這是要共同面對但是你花了過去這幾年107年到114年花了5900多億是事實我不會講說這5900多億就是浪費了我不會這樣講但是我相信部長你也應該可以理解跟承認如果沒花這5900多億狀況會比現在更慘吧"},{"start":315.001,"end":323.591,"text":"是 所以但是我們現在重點在哪裡重點是我們已經花了五千九百多億了可是我們的結果是最後一名"},{"start":325.377,"end":348.222,"text":"這都是事實我們是最後一名花了5900多億我們還是最後一名可是我不會說不能花這5900多億因為如果說沒有花的話可能我們最後一名還要更墊底對不對好可是現在的問題就在於我們已經花了5900多億了還是拿到最後一名那代表過去有做這些事情有沒有成效有成效但是不大"},{"start":349.102,"end":376.165,"text":"那我們現在面臨的問題除了之前的5900多億還是要持續推動該補貼的要補貼政府之前一直講0到6歲國家養可以持續做但是除了這以外如果我們沒有新的思維或是新的政策工具的話我們沒有辦法翻身我們還是一樣最後一名我們不會今天突然間大家過兩個月過三個月之後遇到Mr.Right然後就結婚了"},{"start":377.096,"end":403.676,"text":"不會轉角遇到愛嘛現實生活沒有那麼的那個而且更重要的是愛情是一回事但是你說要養育孩童等等他就變成是很理性的思考所以今天才會變成是說不管是在野黨提出來黨團提出來或者是有執政黨的委員他也提出類似的概念的時候那我們要思考說這對於您剛剛提到的經濟跟機會成本有沒有幫助"},{"start":404.116,"end":417.956,"text":"或是有沒有讓這一些年輕的爸爸媽媽覺得說這一件事情是有幫到他的讓他在思考未來下一代生育的時候他可以更想的是說那我們能不能來生小孩我覺得這才是關鍵"},{"start":419.943,"end":440.714,"text":"因為它是一個大規模的政策的部分而對政下要很重要部長您剛也提到了經濟一定是一個面向所以怎麼樣讓父母都覺得是說政府有幫我經濟上有支持經濟上有支持分兩種一種是政府直接補貼經費但我們過去沒在做 有在做嘛"},{"start":441.334,"end":467.69,"text":"但是也不能無底洞啊對不對一定會馬上就講是說我們政府財政有限所以說我不能無底洞如果說真的我們今天可以挖到石油一戶五萬塊十萬塊二十萬都發但重點是沒有嘛那我們就要思考另外一個方向是說我們今天用一個未來帳戶政府出一點民間自己也出一點然後幫小朋友存錢並且透過基金的管理讓這個存的錢是有"},{"start":468.61,"end":486.212,"text":"合理的收益 當他18歲的時候他可以拿到第一桶金 而這第一桶金是可以幫他不管是還學貸 不管是創業 不管是做人生的規劃 出國留學讓他有一個基本的經濟能力我覺得這不會是壞事"},{"start":488.208,"end":507.035,"text":"所以本席現在講完只是想是說我很懇求跟拜託為什麼今天一定要留下來質詢就是因為我認為這個東西方向對的話不要考慮說一定是在野黨提出我就是完全就是反對執政黨提出執政黨也有委員提出我們共同可以討論不足的地方大家來修正"},{"start":508.106,"end":523.131,"text":"不足的地方或說有思考不周延不嚴謹的地方大家來你給意見我們大家來修正但是這個方向如果是對的可以對症下藥解決現在青年朋友的心理的困擾的時候該支持該推動要推動部長"},{"start":527.202,"end":551.437,"text":"我們會來做很審慎的評論因為本席真的還是希望症狀在哪裡就是您應該是醫生相關背景嘛到底病因是什麼先找出原因我們才能投藥還是要對症下藥那如果說我做去已經投了5900多億的藥我不會講沒有效我還是再次強調因為如果沒有花這5900多億我看可能現在會更差"},{"start":552.418,"end":578.633,"text":"但是投了五千九百多億的藥之後我們還到結果是最後一名那就代表我們這個藥除了該必要性的做持續做以外該換藥了該引進新的療程新的方式來燉剩下藥才能夠真的我們一起努力讓台灣能夠解決至少往少子化往上就是出生率往上的方向邁進好嗎好我們來檢討謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}