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09:41:58","會議時間":"2026-01-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請內政部部長就「賴清德總統興建13萬戶社會住宅政策無法落實之檢討」進行專題報告並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.37659375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.96034375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.04034375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.915968750000005,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.67784375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.26034375,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.95034375,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.93909375000001,"end":104.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.19596875,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.66784375,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.90284375,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.36221875000001,"end":127.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.85909375000001,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.20034375,"end":164.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.37659375,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.76221875000002,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.73221875000002,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.33409375000002,"end":208.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.16284375,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.41409375,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.93596875,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.55971875,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.08284375000002,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":271.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.73534375,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.97159375,"end":272.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.03909375,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.69284375,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.24096875000004,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.10159375,"end":290.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.37409375000004,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.96034375,"end":298.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.11534375,"end":301.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.90784375000004,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.94159375000004,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.22346875,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.90659375,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.23471875,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.21284375000005,"end":322.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.35596875000005,"end":324.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.73971875,"end":327.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.55784375,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.57221875000005,"end":350.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.27159375,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.34284375000004,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.30471875,"end":358.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.75846875,"end":374.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.63909375000003,"end":391.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.88534375,"end":393.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.06221875,"end":397.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.36971875,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.36534375,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.99784375,"end":402.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.10721875,"end":404.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.54159375,"end":407.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.44409375000004,"end":418.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.90659375,"end":423.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.34034375000005,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.37409375000004,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.46659375,"end":430.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.17471875,"end":432.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.13221875000005,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.66346875000005,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.60784375000003,"end":440.36721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謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早 有請劉世芳部長請劉世芳部長"},{"start":20.09,"end":42.536,"text":"部長早部長先跟您說明一下今天我們專案報告的主題有一個有事關於全台灣的社會住宅賴總統當時在選前特別承諾在2032年要興建25萬社會住宅我跟各位報告一下25萬戶是如何來的就是蔡英文總統執政8年原本目標20萬戶興建12萬戶"},{"start":45.917,"end":70.206,"text":"所以賴清德總統他認為要比蔡英文總統多做一點所以他預計要興建13萬戶所以12加13就是25萬戶所以他在2032年才會提出興建全台灣25萬戶的社會住宅可是現在他的政策轉彎巧巧的把這個他的目標13萬戶下降到4萬戶所以我們現在今天我要幫我們的這個"},{"start":71.526,"end":95.635,"text":"招委說一句話所以今天我們的專案報告的內容主題才是賴清哲總統興建13萬戶社會住宅政策無法落實之檢討所以內政部因為已經坦誠公開要從13萬戶下降到3、4萬戶的社會住宅跟當時賴清哲總統的承諾相去甚遠是不是當時的評估發生了什麼問題是不是選舉的詐騙話術那是不是可以請這個"},{"start":99.697,"end":101.111,"text":"部長稍微簡單解釋一下"},{"start":102.972,"end":130.348,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心第一個賴總統所提出的這個設宅的進度我們也都知道從蔡總統到現在為止照顧弱勢然後照顧很多年輕族群這是我們的基本方向所以事實上我剛在報告的時候已經特別提到行政院已經有提出一個全面性的檢討也就是三軌並進從社會住宅的興建包租代管跟租金補貼這三個一起來處理"},{"start":131.269,"end":151.41,"text":"那當然這裡會牽涉到我們在調整的時候怎麼樣更務實的調整跟委員報告我們從陸陸續續出來的這個租金補貼發現到說現在的社會住宅在興建的過程當中其實他所需要的宿地都是集中在北北桃中這些淡黃區域也就是都市計畫密集區"},{"start":152.771,"end":166.413,"text":"才是真正社會住宅需求的一個方向那既然是這個樣子的我們考慮到它的可行性還有它的立即性跟精準性所以我們在做務實性的調整那既然有務實性的調整的話那繼續盤點當中那同時我們也持續的在跟各縣市地方政府尤其是北北桃中的市政府來協調因為在縣市長不管是在選舉的時候或在執政的過程當中"},{"start":180.936,"end":192.806,"text":"他們也非常的盡力啦要想要達成直接興建社會住宅那但是因為有這方面的調整那我想我們在調整的當中呢就是一樣希望中央政府跟地方政府大家一起來努力"},{"start":193.373,"end":220.262,"text":"好 謝謝部長所以剛剛您講的就正式應驗當時賴清德的13萬戶的社會住宅會下降成4萬多戶其實本席要在這邊講政府的政策不是不能調整可是對青年的保障跟所需要的人當時的承諾不能打折當時過去行政院明明也盤點了260處大概有多少萬戶的社會住宅的用地可是現在這個部長一句話就說這個覺得好像"},{"start":221.445,"end":243.172,"text":"土地太貴成效不足要來退回所以我覺得這有一點讓我本席相信我本身是支持社會住宅的可是這樣子的話是不是會您的講法會不會犧牲年輕人的居住正義那本席這邊還是要再次強調就像今天的報告裡面你們寫的就像剛剛部長所講的其實是讓我本席覺得是一種話術"},{"start":244.432,"end":261.982,"text":"因為在這個報告裡面你們講的預計的社會住宅的目標是100萬戶啊在第一頁裡面寫的100萬戶啊就算依照剛剛這個部長裡面講的依照住宅法第19條的規定啊你現在所興建的社會住宅大概12萬戶加上包租代管的大概10萬戶也是22萬戶啊"},{"start":263.723,"end":286.46,"text":"要達到一百萬戶根本就本席而言根本這個目標就太長遠就天方夜譚所以我是不是再請部長稍微委員您的算法有錯了你解釋一下現在社會住宅的數量新建的是不是十二萬戶包住斷款是不是十二萬戶你在報告第一頁寫說預計一百萬戶這就是一個很明顯的美化的數字那我想要請教部長"},{"start":287.02,"end":306.072,"text":"如何從20萬戶到達你的100萬戶的社會住宅報告委員這不是美化的數字我跟委員報告就是說在行政院所通過的百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫裡面沒有你寫的是100萬戶的社會住宅啊這第一萬以100萬為目標啊百萬戶的租屋家庭的計畫我們的目標從來沒有改變過是三軌並進"},{"start":307.427,"end":320.807,"text":"所以我要跟部長講這就是你的話術啦不是話術每一個目標你現在社會住宅新建而且是非常務實的政治人物啊尤其總統在總統的報告是新建不是新辦啦就是要"},{"start":321.297,"end":342.834,"text":"花政府的錢蓋的是政府的房子啊可是你現在不管是你新建的12萬戶加上包租貸款的12萬才22萬戶你這裡美化說要100萬戶中間還差了那麼多的數字那我了解你的想法就是未來想要把租金補貼或甚至一些空的房子把它加入包租貸款裡面可是你的目標其實也沒辦法到達"},{"start":343.675,"end":364.908,"text":"其實我記得你的目標大概是25萬戶你要達到100萬戶喔 其實也是不可能喔所以我還是希望說這個數字 百萬戶的租屋家庭計畫是三軌並進我知道 可是我們在講的是社會住宅一道住宅法第19條的社會住宅好 所以我還是要跟這個部長講就是說年輕人的未來跟有需要的人的需要還是要拜託賴總統這邊喔"},{"start":367.39,"end":391.031,"text":"這個還是要來關心他們所的需求那第二個我要請教部長就是之前在去年的11月我這邊的質詢的時候一直請教您就是有關於這個內政部預告的建築物設置太陽能光電板設置的一個標準就是未來在新建增建或改建建築面積達1000平方公尺以上的建築物要強制設太陽光電"},{"start":392.272,"end":408.47,"text":"當時我在講的時候我就覺得這個法一定要多加檢討而且當時你在質詢的時候你也承諾說這個要再檢討也不會那麼快上落可是我們看到現在這個法案這個辦法已經公告上去了所以距離上次質詢已經兩個多月了請問部長你們"},{"start":411.733,"end":420.882,"text":"後續跟經濟部開了幾次會為什麼當你都不同意了這個方案為什麼還要這麼急的公告上次您在質詢的時候我有跟您講說我們會檢討請問檢討了幾次我們檢討就是我們請我們的國土署跟經濟部負責的這個"},{"start":430.572,"end":453.697,"text":"有沒有檢討有沒有書面的會議資料有八次的會議我是不是可以請那個戴署長跟你回應一下那你聽我講完一下齁那我們檢討以後呢這個標準已經針對有消防公安跟維管三個部分的做充分考量而且呢我們在12月19號公佈出去的時候呢是跟經濟部一起共同公佈出去的好 那請那個有沒有要解釋"},{"start":455.455,"end":467.422,"text":"是報告委員我是114年質詢我們內政部長請問你們開那8次會議是幾年開的我們在去年還是甚至前年都有開是113年開的8次會議沒有沒有就陸陸續續一直開我拿到了8次會議的紀錄是113年的我這質詢是114年沒有跟部長報告錯誤啊114有開會開會是在113年"},{"start":484.412,"end":509.113,"text":"因為我們持續在檢討你們有沒有跟部長報告錯誤那如果你們如果真的沒有認真開會的話你們是不是要針對這個辦法是不是還要再繼續檢討針對所有的消防安全以及後續的維護應該要再檢討部長你有沒有聽到這個沒有開會就把這個辦法草草的公佈有開會報告委員您剛在上次在質詢的時候是特別提到您特別提到是消防的部分"},{"start":511.795,"end":522.098,"text":"您特別提到消防的部分我也請教過消防署針對這個部分要提供他們的見解所以我們針對這個部分跟委員報告是114年12月19的時候我們跟惠童經濟部已經發布出去好再來我要請教現在要抱怨有一個實務的問題大家都知道北市科輝達要來設總部要做這個新建3.0"},{"start":534.201,"end":560.319,"text":"他的屋頂是科技感的摺疊設計恐怕很難符合現在內政部所要需的設的光電板所以我要是不是請教部長市政府現在要協助揮打我們台灣可能第二個護國神山他是不是現在這個屋頂的這個是不是要送給內政部跟經濟部來做審查你們會不會因為他的設計沒有辦法裝光電板而去否築他的建築設計有沒有一些現在可以具體的回應"},{"start":561.22,"end":573.916,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們會再來跟台北市政府來共同找到一個比較好的方式因為我們都知道輝達的新建案台北市政府在內政部地政司的協助之下也是如火如荼的展開當中"},{"start":578.542,"end":589.996,"text":"那這個部分呢根據第六條裡面的一個這個規範呢我覺得我們可以跟台北市政府一起來協調那到底他們碰到什麼樣子的困難那如果可以協調出共識的話我想會幫助輝達在取得土地然後蓋總部的時候呢會能夠如期如質的達成"},{"start":596.668,"end":612.893,"text":"最後我要拜託部長就是不管是社宅的興建或是光電板的設置回答是我們台灣可能是第二個護國神山一定要多多來幫忙那我想要請教就是這個台北市政府未來相信有很多像這樣子的案子所以這光電板的設置"},{"start":615.195,"end":632.151,"text":"我這邊有個新聞稿經濟部說的發電量我要跟大家公布一個數字全台灣一年可能會因為這個光電板在屋頂設置上一年要增加一百多萬片的光電板所以我還是要拜託這個部長跟經濟部要多溝通要審慎來考量 謝謝"},{"start":633.232,"end":650.223,"text":"是 我剛跟委員報告了也是根據我們公布出去的這個發電設備標準來講的第六條就是您剛所提到有跟回答的部分所以其實是有解方並不是沒有解方有解方 那我還是要講那部長那個未來這個條例標準還是要再審慎思考 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}