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10:54:28","會議時間":"2026-01-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請內政部部長就「賴清德總統興建13萬戶社會住宅政策無法落實之檢討」進行專題報告並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.27534375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.244093750000001,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.615343750000001,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.665968750000001,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":30.456593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.14659375,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.494718750000004,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.28471875000001,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.63346875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.36659375,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.01159375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.56346875000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.59659375000001,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.66409375,"end":106.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.86659375,"end":117.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.22784375,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.79221875,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.66409375,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.81909375,"end":154.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.51096875000002,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.04221875000002,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.26034375,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.18346875,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.73159375,"end":162.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.54096875000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.57471875000002,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.95534375000003,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.50346875000002,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.23909375000002,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.77034375000002,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.30971875,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.32596875000002,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.71784375000001,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.86971875,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.72471875000002,"end":244.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.74159375000002,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.88721875000002,"end":248.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.00534375,"end":246.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.59971875000002,"end":270.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.61659375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.60971875,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.66034375000004,"end":266.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.24659375000005,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.63409375000003,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.41784375000003,"end":282.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.18096875000003,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.45096875,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.51846875,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.02346875,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.72534375000004,"end":318.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.71534375000005,"end":322.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.69346875,"end":333.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.42284375,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.58221875000004,"end":370.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.52596875,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.04471875,"end":344.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.19784375,"end":365.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":384.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.10159375,"end":402.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.35221875,"end":402.48284375000003},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我們請劉世芳 劉部長請劉部長委員好 部長好部長 您在1月初的時候有陪同我們前總統蔡英文去參觀了這個中和的社會住宅"},{"start":24.346,"end":34.879,"text":"而當時呢也發文這個蔡總統也發文強調社宅是國家必須承擔的責任而且賴清德總統競選時也明確的承諾要落實居住正義"},{"start":35.612,"end":55.857,"text":"所以要在蔡英文政府12萬戶的基礎上再加碼興建13萬戶到達25萬戶結果大概在您陪同蔡英文主席之後她也肯定她也相信未來中央政府會繼續的一起來推動社會住宅跟居住支持的政策"},{"start":56.557,"end":76.087,"text":"那但是一個禮拜後您就提出了這25萬戶的社宅可能會跳票因為接下來可能會越蓋越少所以要請問部長賴清德總統競選時所承諾的這個25萬戶社會住宅的目標截至今日為止是否人算數"},{"start":77.801,"end":104.773,"text":"報告委員現在我們確實在蔡英文總統到中和去看景蕭設宅的時候我有跟她報告我們現在三軌旗下的目標值是110萬戶當時也提到說蔡英文總統任內所完成的設宅的總量是12萬戶包租代管是10萬戶所以我所說的數據到目前為止變動數並不大"},{"start":106.954,"end":113.118,"text":"那請問一下賴清德總統當時說會加碼興建13戶住宅那你已經講了未來會越蓋越少請問會少到什麼程度報告委員目前為止我們盤點出來的部分可能會在4萬到6萬之間6萬到6萬 對不起"},{"start":125.527,"end":133.714,"text":"還要看這個北北桃中這個縣市地方政府他們現在能夠跟中央政府一起來合作能夠盤點的戶數所以這個部分有一些變動原來是13萬戶現在可能會調降到4萬到6萬戶是這樣嗎"},{"start":142.66,"end":161.292,"text":"要看時間因為聽說這個計畫其實都還沒有送行政院不是 報告委員我們百萬戶租屋家庭的支持計畫並沒有改變那目前為止還是三軌所以現在調整的是數目110萬戶的租屋主受到政府的對 100就是合計超過110萬戶那是因為你有90萬戶都是租金補貼嗎"},{"start":166.556,"end":183.009,"text":"有90萬戶都是租金補貼喔所以才能夠合計加起來是110萬戶那尤其我們剛剛提到的12萬戶的社宅現在看起來好像達標可是實際上只有4萬多戶是完工的我們可以看一下現在這個統計表而新建中以絕標帶開工的"},{"start":184.33,"end":204.664,"text":"加起來還有大概8萬戶左右加起來才會有12萬戶這也只是達到這個蔡英文總統當時說的12萬戶那但是真正12萬戶要蓋完可能也當然也可能要到2032年那現在規劃中的28230這個就是剛您講的賴清德總統的任內開始這個規劃中的嗎就是所謂的13萬戶的社會住宅嗎"},{"start":214.646,"end":221.211,"text":"目前規劃當中 但是事實上我們還在規劃我剛有跟其他的委員報告過我剛有跟其他的委員報告過目前就是說我們在115到116裡面可以優先興辦的40處大概是1.1萬戶請問一下為什麼會在賴清德總統也上任一年多的時間"},{"start":237.742,"end":246.007,"text":"你們就把這個他的原來說的13萬戶的社會住宅要興建的這個部分就已經開始公開的公開的表示會跳票了為什麼這麼短時間第一個我們沒有講會跳票需要調整跟委員報告我們現在呢知道說從這個租金補貼裡面呢所分佈的這個樣態知道說社會住宅的需求量大概就是集中在北北桃中這些所謂的京華地段跟京華地區"},{"start":266.34,"end":292.825,"text":"因為現在全台灣22個縣市已經有蓋好很多社會住宅回答其他委員的時候我聽到這個應該是在你們上任前就會知道社會住宅大概需求的大概就是會在進化區絕對不會是現在才知道嘛用盤點的方式那也就是說現在除了這個跳票之後您剛還提了另外一個原因就是因為要這個營建會增加碳排影響2050年的淨零目標"},{"start":295.625,"end":321.438,"text":"請您看一下您在2024年9月2號參加自然碳會及低碳建築研討會的時候還提到25萬戶社宅每年減碳可以11.23萬噸但現在卻變成說因為這個要增加因為我們蓋社宅會增加碳排量所以我們也要多利用現在的空污漁夫所以到底蓋社宅是會增加碳排還是會減碳"},{"start":323.917,"end":343.604,"text":"蓋的越多當然碳排就越多蓋的越少碳排就越少請問您在2024年講到25萬戶設宅每年減碳11.23萬噸這個怎麼來的第一個那個當時呢我們在蓋社會住宅的時候因為我們要求社會住宅要走綠建築的標章所以綠建築跟一般的標章比起來是這樣子做所以現在不用嗎"},{"start":344.324,"end":371.078,"text":"報告委員我們現在要求是更嚴格也就是說在汽油變遷委員會裡面這個總統有明確要求這個社會這個住商裡面的碳排量要達到35%那我在參加這個自然碳會的時候那時候的目標不是35%那既然是35%的狀況之下那社會住宅如果可以減少這個新蓋的數量的話他減少的碳排量就會更多"},{"start":371.718,"end":397.945,"text":"其實我想不管是當時你說會減少碳排或是現在會增加碳排其實大家都聽到無瑟瑟因為都會覺得說到底是當時為了要推社會住宅當時為了要這個推這個賴總統的政見所以呢什麼樣子都有可能來這個帶動社宅的一個興建可是現在又是這樣子所以我們現在看到就靜靈轉型來告訴大家說社宅的興建應該要少一點這個其實"},{"start":399.145,"end":409.189,"text":"就是聽起來事實上大家都沒有辦法能夠接受其實委員還有另外一個重點就是稀缺稀缺的淡黃區土地太少了然後那個才是真正有需求的人所需要的地段另外再請教部長就是說既然您剛剛講說設宅的興建會越來越少那為什麼今年住住中心還要增加35個名額然後增加將近9000萬的經費"},{"start":419.823,"end":448.036,"text":"報告委員我們現在的方向有三個第一個社會住宅的興建那第二個呢就是現在已經完成的社會住宅還需要有人做這個社會住宅的管理然後再加上我們現在還有都市更新公辦的都更所以有三個面向但是這些人數呢我有要求住住中心已經要做這個檢討不能夠以增加員工人數為主所以說可能針對這個部分可能住住中心也要了解一下"},{"start":448.476,"end":463.564,"text":"既然我們接下來不該設 設宅會越蓋越少所以住宅中心的這個原額事實上必須要調整經費也應該要減少才對喔那另外還有就是最後想要請教你就說現在既然剛剛聽部長講重心都轉向包租貸款跟租金補貼那當時呢我們來看到為了擴大租金補貼2.0"},{"start":468.666,"end":493.663,"text":"當時為了充業績內政部就宣傳說免房東同意直接申請手續減變然後告訴年輕人放心來申請吧政府挺你結果現在他們忽然收到了這個叫他們要補這個補繳的這個租金補貼要繳回的這個通知因為說房東說這個房東房子的稅級不符或建物用途不對然後發公文叫弱勢的房客把這個錢繳回來動輒幾萬動輒十幾萬"},{"start":498.326,"end":507.11,"text":"其實會要求租金補貼的人其實他們就是相對弱勢那這樣子為了當時你們要去衝這樣的一個業績結果造成我們的房客受到這麼大的一個問題那針對這個部分國土署說返還困難可分期付款這不是返還困難的問題"},{"start":516.335,"end":536.372,"text":"這是當時你們的政策的推廣所造成房東造成房客不了解政策而被迫這樣做這樣子的一個騙大家上車之後然後後續再對弱勢人進行抄家這樣子可行嗎報告委員我們會跟地方政府來做精進的方案因為這裡面包括第一個他身份變更"},{"start":537.173,"end":563.993,"text":"第二個呢他所住的住宅是不是符合我們當時所做的住宅的部分呢都需要後續的查核然後再來就是也有可能他因為短期的租屋譬如說寒暑假所以會造成我們查核上的困難也就是說我們第一線的查核是在地方政府然後第二線的這個複核是在中央政府那中央政府發現說複核有困難複核有狀況的時候就會要求第一線的地方政府需要做追回的這個工作那追回的如果有困難"},{"start":565.214,"end":575.434,"text":"宣傳說免房東同意直接申請手續減便而造成房客的誤導的話我覺得這個部分我們就應該要來好好的解決這個問題而不是說事後稽查的問題"},{"start":578.163,"end":597.809,"text":"我們應該是有定型化的契約的提供但是在處理的過程當中一定會有這些困擾所以我想在宣傳上是不是有這樣的問題如果有的話我覺得就是政府應該來解決這樣的問題我們會來幫忙跟地方政府一起來解決因為目前大概是1.3%左右出現這樣的狀況不管是百分之多少我想會來使用租金補貼就是他相對弱勢我們一定要幫他解決問題好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}