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各位請就座 我們繼續開會首先來介紹在場的委員 陳樹業委員我們應安會主任委員 陳信德他因為慢幾分鐘到我們何慶生副主任委員我們吳炎黃委員張文環委員"},{"start":1825.302,"end":1847.91,"text":"我們李延年委員主任秘書姚承安執行長林佩達主任孫淑信專門委員行政院主計公務預算處的專門委員廖逸林好那"},{"start":1849.349,"end":1862.964,"text":"今天首先來處理報告四項有關114年度國家運輸安全調查委員會的預算之解凍案計五案請藝術人員宣讀"},{"start":1871.175,"end":1880.065,"text":"報告事項處理一百一四年度中中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計五案國家運輸安全調查委員會函"},{"start":1883.547,"end":1904.912,"text":"簡訊該會一至五一決議一預算凍結十分之一案二決議二教育訓練費預算凍結十分之一案三決議三探員出國計畫預算凍結十分之一案是決議四運輸事故調查預算凍結五分之一案五決議五運輸系統安全分析與工程鑑定預算凍結十分之一案宣布完畢"},{"start":1909.215,"end":1917.83,"text":"好來各位委員那個宣讀完畢那請各位委員有沒有什麼意見好"},{"start":1920.185,"end":1945.127,"text":"那個孟愷有沒有意見沒有的話做以下的決定報告事項 預算解凍案114年度中央政府總預算案結議個案書面報告已送達經予以被查提報宴會好現在再補充介紹我們林信德主任委員"},{"start":1947.998,"end":1970.369,"text":"好 接著進行本日會議的討論事項處理114年度國家運輸安全調查委員會之預算解凍案一案現在進行機關報告及詢答現在請運安會明信德主委來做報告"},{"start":1979.87,"end":2005.86,"text":"主席各位各位女士各位先生大家好首先對主席及各位委員給予本會各項業務的支持與指導表示有助的感謝今天列席各位委員會就114年度預算解凍案進行報告那麼我們114年度單位預算凍結案有六案那麼已經分別你據這個事件包括含重大型災案"},{"start":2008.973,"end":2032.068,"text":"那其中討論案四項是一案 包括四項是五案那麼現在請就討論四項的這個凍結案件結案方案如下第一 討論四項本會列以討論四項的凍結案新增決議第八十案討論決議的內容是國家藝術安全調查委員會業務編列預算六千兩百四十五萬元"},{"start":2033.386,"end":2047.552,"text":"三千元凍結百分之三十是執行百分之三十之後實則申請解凍並經院會同意或實則凍結他們本會月一上開的決議在五月六日提送書面報告相關內容請說明如下關於"},{"start":2049.417,"end":2073.629,"text":"改善建議的追蹤列管機制本會已經依據《藝術事務調查法》第27條以行政院函班之分項執行計畫列管作業規定建立改善建議發布後的追蹤列管機制有關機關在收到藝術事務調查報告後90天之內應該向行政院提出處理報告並複製本會其中對改善建議事項認為可行者"},{"start":2074.75,"end":2103.085,"text":"想提具體的分校執行計劃本會只會應該對各分校執行計劃進行審核對於還沒有完成者專期這邊核列後列入納官並由本會追蹤執行情形有關機關對列管中的改善監獄分校執行計劃應該以每年的11月15日與7月15日前將前6個月的執行情形從本會審核一直到解除列管為止現在報告改善監獄完成率的統計"},{"start":2105.209,"end":2112.134,"text":"統計至5月21日子,航空、水路、鐵道、公路分別已發布1,112項、310項、221項、173項的改善監獄,總計有1,816項其中還有一些分項事件機關列管中的改善監獄,分別是3項、39項、23項跟第10項"},{"start":2126.577,"end":2132.58,"text":"滿地管中的數量占各調查模組改善建議總數的比例為0.3%、12.6%、10.4%、5.8%整體而言有關機關已完成94%的改善建議"},{"start":2142.944,"end":2170.963,"text":"改善支援覆項執行計畫列管超過三年以上者經統計自5月21日子航空水路鐵道與公路改善建議覆項執行計畫列管超過三年以上者有兩項三項九項跟兩項總共有16項該等覆項執行計畫並非有關機關沒有改善作為而是因為大概都要需要改善期程比較長而且困難度比較高本會每半年都會協助解釋執行"},{"start":2172.944,"end":2199.963,"text":"本會針對上述列管超過三年以上的各調查模組已經在今年三月辦理四場有關這個互相執行計畫的接近作為會議分別邀請國防部、空軍司令部、交通部以及所屬的港港級、鐵道級、公路級、高速公路級、鐵路公司、台鐵公司等機構延長執行的困難處以及後續可行的執行方式藉此協助有關機關技術完整改善本會將持續"},{"start":2201.747,"end":2214.165,"text":"是需要邀請有關機關討論改善建議的方向跟目標如有關機關提出的互相執行計畫從缺法執行的執行紀錄或者是方向有偏離者我們還是會繼續協助該機關股東市的檢討報告結語"},{"start":2218.09,"end":2222.433,"text":"經統計114年度業務會到5月21日執行數是16542294人執行率是30.96%已經達30%有關大院決議事項典會經已加強處理而且提出書面報告本會將"},{"start":2238.709,"end":2254.579,"text":"繼續積極辦理溢出事故的調查作業 發覺事故的噪音提出改善協議 其中避免類似事件再次發生為確保機關後續業務運行無疑 請請各位委員支持同意 動之相關協會 批立各項業務的順利推動 以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2259.892,"end":2272.309,"text":"好 謝謝我們林興德主委現在我們進行詢打先告以下事項第一 詢打時間出席委員6加2分鐘"},{"start":2274.952,"end":2303.634,"text":"列席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記在10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請以10點前提出以便藝術人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則性不休息那我再來補充介紹我們邱樂華委員"},{"start":2306.052,"end":2312.755,"text":"那剛才好現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行好主席謝謝麻煩請林主委林主委"},{"start":2329.042,"end":2355.553,"text":"各位好 新北三峽發生重大的車禍意外我想國人都非常的難過但現在最重要是釐清真相跟還原事實我們有看到運安會也已經說成立專案小組並且查扣車輛上面的事故資料記錄器那到目前為止已經快兩個禮拜過去那我們有沒有什麼樣的一個比較新的進度來還原整個事實的真相"},{"start":2356.836,"end":2377.871,"text":"這個案子我們的EDI就是所謂行程電腦已經開始在解讀那我們跟檢調單位目前在合作那相關的資料都有在互通因為基於檢調單位偵查不公開的原則我們目前還是在因為這個案子EDI的解讀一般差不多要三四個禮拜但初步一定是因為它要同步"},{"start":2378.351,"end":2398.912,"text":"一定要要三四個禮拜但對於我們來講現在國人想要了解的是說到底這件事情它是因為第一時間交通部在第二天馬上就調修了所謂的高齡駕車的一個年限的緊縮從本來75歲往下修70歲那一時間大家以為是說是不是高齡者的一個高齡駕車的問題"},{"start":2400.433,"end":2420.575,"text":"那但是又看到的是他有400公尺內四次的事故尤其是一開始的時候在那個路口有所謂的肇事逃逸所以我們現在國人大家想問的是到底他是故意還是過失是人為的因素還是肇事逃逸那這一些部分沒有辦法讓國人有一個比較清楚明白了解嗎"},{"start":2423.903,"end":2439.001,"text":"這個要等這個我剛剛講ED要解讀出來之後還要配合所有的CCTV還有配合這個駕駛的訪談等等這個整個整個一系列的這個調查還有很多要磨合在一起當然"},{"start":2439.602,"end":2466.534,"text":"就是因為有很多所以說國人現在想要了解是說我們到底各單位的進度或是各單位是不是能夠積極辦理讓國人早日了解真相三人死亡十二人受傷這難道不應該重視嗎我們已經動員整個全會大概有15個人在集中火力在調查這個案子是所以什麼時候因為以往的運安事故發生一個月才會公佈初步的調查報告沒有錯"},{"start":2466.994,"end":2495.274,"text":"那你現在又在推說因為這可能檢調現在正在偵辦當中但我們其實對檢調也有點為詞啊因為也有網路上面講說同病房的人好像有聽到說這一個加害者他已經醒過來了但到目前為止怎麼都看到還沒有做筆錄那當然我相信檢調應該都有派專人再去做看管這一個加害者只要要一清醒可以做筆錄就應該要做筆錄嘛"},{"start":2496.717,"end":2525.623,"text":"現在重點是各單位有沒有積極的讓國人了解還是說真的如同陰謀論來講這個背後可能八股很大可能是某某某綠營調查咖還是怎麼樣還是跟誰關係好所以大家想要大事化小 小事化無有可能嗎這個我沒有聽說不可能嘛 主委這不好笑不是 主委我們要的是真相對要的還原事實 好"},{"start":2527.174,"end":2551.15,"text":"來看一下喔今年三月交通部長陳士凱才講說行人走在斑馬線上被車撞死是國死所以修法要更嚴厲但昨天交通部周年記者會卻改口說行人地獄只是形容詞見仁見智我想請教以主管道安教安的主管機關這種說法運安會你能夠接受嗎"},{"start":2552.941,"end":2572.204,"text":"我們尊重共產黨部主管機關因為我們是事故的調查機關這角度是不太一樣的可以接受說現在到底行人地獄在台灣國外國際觀光客為什麼會有行人地獄這四個字其實本席身為中華民國的一份子我也覺得很難過"},{"start":2573.927,"end":2596.382,"text":"當國外的遊客來到台灣然後就感受到說是行人地獄的時候其實這是一竿子打翻一船人可是為什麼會有這樣的罵名不也就是過去不管是道路不管是駕駛人不管是相關的單位大家的疏忽累積而成那現在講說行人地獄只是形容詞見仁見智那我們的運安會能夠協助"},{"start":2601.454,"end":2606.445,"text":"是不是能夠給交通主管機關更強而有力的督促啊 主委"},{"start":2607.335,"end":2634.032,"text":"我們這個案子調查出來之後可能會有系統化的風險問題我們會給交通部做建議調查出來之後會有系統化的方式給交通部做建議對好來那我請教第一時間我剛剛開眾名義就講第一時間三峽案件一發生完之後第一時間交通部第二天記者會馬上就有講是說要調修這所謂的高齡駕車的部分當然最近也有一連串其他高齡駕駛肇事的狀況"},{"start":2636.474,"end":2652.477,"text":"但是就針對這一個事件初步判斷感覺跟高齡比較沒有直接的關係那主委對於這一連串我們台灣社會最近比較多的媒體報導的高齡駕車事件事故你有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":2653.436,"end":2671.068,"text":"我覺得我們是應該跟交通部一起來共同努力交通部雖然已經在第一時間有給國人一個交代可是這個案子是屬於調查案子調查案子的過程我們應該要更加努力所以我剛剛幫我們投入了15個人力這個幾乎是排擠掉其他的案子了"},{"start":2673.882,"end":2695.635,"text":"這重大的案件當然也應該要趕快調查給國人適時真相了解啊我每一次我都講嘛 運安會今天是解凍案報告我每次都講說運安會來我們可以很心平氣和討論交通的精進 交通的改善這都好事啊這代表沒有事故發生啊沒有事故發生我們超前部署防範未然啊"},{"start":2696.235,"end":2725.416,"text":"但現在既然事故發生了我們要的是記取這次的教訓避免下次再犯所以才要找出這件事件的真實原因是肇事逃逸是荒唐駕車是人為因素是車輛控管不良還是高齡駕車這些綜合出來之後我們才能做政策來對症下藥啊不是嗎所以後續高齡駕駛的一連串的事故我們運安會會有提出相關建議"},{"start":2727.423,"end":2747.798,"text":"是不是能夠針對這個不管是現在從75歲調降到70歲但是70歲是換照他還是有那我們那時候也提過是說你的高齡駕駛除了我的身心的感知以外可能還有其他的部分需要再進一步的做評估來不是只是單純年齡一分法"},{"start":2750.849,"end":2769.095,"text":"確實沒有錯 不是只有單純的問題所以運安會後續是不是也可以提供專業的建議給交通部因為交通部講說三個月內會把配套措施出來那我們運安會這邊是不是也可以提供參考其他國外的案例 參考國外的制度我想我們應該會提供一些建議給他們"},{"start":2771.329,"end":2787.395,"text":"因為我們分成四個分組在調查嘛操作分組 車輛分組 生還因素的還有紀錄區分組那這四個分組在15個人力裡面我們所調查出來之後還要去同步 還要解讀 還要訪談我只是請教 那交通部有沒有找 雲南會開會過了"},{"start":2789.396,"end":2802.646,"text":"還沒有目前還沒有目前還沒有三個月內他們就要提出來就運安會我覺得很重要的一個機關也是獨立自主的機關調查事故的機關專業機關交通部不早開會莫名其妙"},{"start":2803.922,"end":2818.63,"text":"我們是不是能夠主動的問交通部說有什麼樣可以協助的地方參與這次的一個調整的政策開會溝通提供專業意見事實上我們這個案子的專案小組組織分工會議裡面有找他們來看過會"},{"start":2820.236,"end":2835.657,"text":"有找他們來 專業組織婚婚會他們有來過主委我講的是兩件事嘛專案小組是你們現在在組成是調查新北市三峽事故這個是專案小組但本席現在講的是交通部因應這一個案件之後他就調整了高齡駕車的"},{"start":2837.119,"end":2859.155,"text":"年齡比例 從75歲變到70歲然後他說他要做相關的配套 但是這個部分跟這一件事情一個是獨立案件 我們要真相請運安會趕快讓國人知道真相但另外一個部分是 交通部做出一個反應但這個反應其實它並不是這個獨立事件的主要原因可是交通部還是做了"},{"start":2859.995,"end":2887.421,"text":"就是所謂的高齡駕車 從75歲變70歲那本席也尊重 因為過去也有一些討論那只是說 現在一連串的事故裡面也有高齡駕車它可能不是這一個獨立案件的主要原因可是既然要講高齡駕車 它可能是另外一個事件的時候我們運動會要提出相關的建議啊你不能講說你這個獨立案件 你們又找交通部開會然後這一個高齡駕車的政策 你們就放著不管啊"},{"start":2888.371,"end":2907.916,"text":"不會啦不會嘛因為我們我們主動一點好不好我們的調查重點裡面也會考慮到這個駕駛行為調查搞造的體檢制度調查的這個這個管理制度這裡面就會涉及高齡的問題好來那主委我最後一個問題請教這可能也跟您過去轉眼雲過去是民航局副局長"},{"start":2908.996,"end":2931.929,"text":"那最近也有另外一個年齡的問題卻是機師的人口缺口所以交通部要修正所謂的航空人員檢定給照管理規則擴大放寬年齡的範圍從最低要放寬到18歲並且最高同航班年齡反而是從不超過60歲放寬到不超過65歲"},{"start":2935.888,"end":2962.625,"text":"所以在另外一個航空的部分因為機師的缺口反而他是要放寬年齡的級距從高齡的60歲 現行60歲的制度要多放寬5歲變65歲所以一方面路上他是要降低年齡的限度從75歲降到70歲他就要受相關的換照可是航空他卻是要65歲放寬60歲放寬到65歲"},{"start":2966.405,"end":2991.638,"text":"主委 以你的專業判斷 你有什麼樣的看法這是兩個不同的專業領域是 兩個不同的專業領域 但是回歸同一件事情都是年齡的放寬一個是緊縮 一個是放寬我相信平常局他一定有配套措施啦是 我現在想問的是你不能只是相信 因為運安會你是防範未來的專業單位嘛那我現在想要請教說 運安會您專業的看法是什麼他60歲 當初會設60歲的門檻"},{"start":2996.311,"end":3021.639,"text":"那因為現在是機師的人口缺 人力缺所以他要放寬5歲那這5歲有沒有專業的支撐判斷還是說他有沒有 你應該建議說他要再多做什麼樣的一個檢測還是就是單純的就放寬就放寬了應該不會 他有必要做事 絕對有必要做事能不能了解一下他不會去單純是這樣做 我們可以去了解"},{"start":3022.85,"end":3047.265,"text":"主委這個是本席就找到的新聞資料他就是直接講交通部你下修檢定年齡到18歲同班高齡駕駛放寬到65歲本席還是站在我相信我們做每一件事情一定都要做過評估但是就是說在這個放寬的過程當初會這樣子規定並且現在的放寬如果說只是因為人力不足而要補這個人力缺口就放寬5歲的話那5歲的標準是什麼"},{"start":3051.397,"end":3063.829,"text":"那如果說以後人力再不夠 再放寬變10歲變15歲這個部分 越南會是不是能夠也來做掌握跟交通部來做一個瞭解"},{"start":3065.409,"end":3085.662,"text":"我們可以開個專案會議來跟他了解一下我還是強調交通沒有最好只有更好我們大家都是在防範未來都是希望把風險降到最低窮盡一切的可能把風險降到最低這是我們共同的使命再拜託主委好嗎好謝謝洪孟楷委員的"},{"start":3092.17,"end":3106.983,"text":"現在請李崑澤委員執行謝謝召委 請一下林主委好 應安會林主委"},{"start":3111.526,"end":3136.415,"text":"林主委您好有關於5月19號三峽的重大車禍造成嚴重的傷亡國人都非常的錯愕與傷痛那當然在第一時間我有跟運安會來聯絡認為這件事情是符合重大公路事故的調查要件應該列入調查當然我們在"},{"start":3137.591,"end":3163.32,"text":"公路的這樣一個事故的調查條件 雲安會有基本的規範第一個就是它是交通運輸工具 貨物的運輸工具以及大型的這種自用車造成3人以上的這樣的一個死亡或是10人的這樣的一個受傷或是15人以上受傷 就列入這個調查的條件"},{"start":3163.8,"end":3185.116,"text":"或者是它是交通運輸工具 貨物運輸工具有在這種危險的物質或放射物質翻覆外洩造成死亡的話也是列入調查另外一個就是我們所說的重大的公路事件造成社會注意的這樣的一個重大案件也必須要來做調查"},{"start":3187.418,"end":3197.974,"text":"那現在調查的進度如何來簡單說明一下什麼時候會完成這個資料的報告以及最終的調查完成報告"},{"start":3199.133,"end":3227.94,"text":"我們一個月內會發布初步的報告然後五個月內會發布事實資料的報告就是一個月是初步的報告那大概是在今年的十月應該會發布資料的調查報告然後明年的五月會完成相關的這樣的一個調查的報告這個應該盡快的讓國人來知道相關的這樣的一個交通意外的事故"},{"start":3228.96,"end":3255.592,"text":"那另外我們來看交通意外事故的預防它的重要性是越來越重要那我們看到我們運安會的這樣的一個組織法的第二條就是運輸事故的趨勢分析運輸安全的改善建立它的追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究是我們運安會組織的一個重要的基礎那"},{"start":3257.591,"end":3279.208,"text":"我們來看看異常事故 異常事件或是中小型事故的統計跟分析是非常重要的因為我們可以提前來發現這些事故它的發生的一個隱憂然後預防事故發生的一個重要基礎"},{"start":3280.55,"end":3295.611,"text":"這就是一個基本的一個觀念那但是我看到近期具有潛在風險的異常事件例如華信的引擎蓋脫落的事件或者是台鐵列車停靠"},{"start":3296.789,"end":3314.288,"text":"不靠這個不當的事件還有高鐵停站未開門的事件或是公路客運大規模超時過老的這些問題這些不管是他設備的問題操作的問題或是人為的因素等等啊那"},{"start":3316.138,"end":3345.299,"text":"我們的運安會最主要的是事後調查但是這個觀念也必須逐漸改變國際的趨勢已經是從事後調查提升到事前預防世界各國的主要的這種運安會類似的組織都已經朝這個趨勢那當然我們運安會必須要取得相關的資料"},{"start":3346.769,"end":3362.214,"text":"取得相關的這些相關的這些狀況的收集當然我們有這種參照世界各國"},{"start":3363.717,"end":3389.184,"text":"的主要的安全調查機構它的制度跟相關的研究我們看到資料掌握還有風險預警是現在運輸安全一個治理重要的核心我們國家並不是沒有預防的這樣的一個機制也有啦就是之前我長期在推動的志願報告系統從非安會的時期到現在這樣的一個"},{"start":3392.814,"end":3420.663,"text":"機制其實還是明顯的不足因為我們事前的預防機制是參照歐美的這種資源報告系統但是它個案的處理哪裡系統性的預防沒有辦法做到系統性的預防所以我看到我們應該是應該跟世界各國一樣我舉加拿大為例加拿大他們各交通系統發生異常的事件他們立刻就要"},{"start":3421.823,"end":3424.32,"text":"依法就要通報加拿大的運安會"},{"start":3425.823,"end":3452.745,"text":"而且建立資料庫來進行統計的一個分析主委這就是說我們都是消極的在等待這些志願報告系統不管是駕駛者或者是乘客所提供的志願報告系統他們消極的提供我們才去做相關的一個處理但是世界各國現在如果有異常事故的話"},{"start":3453.946,"end":3475.877,"text":"發生這種狀況雖然沒有發生事故這些事件沒有發生成事故但是他還是會主動依法要通報他們的運安會那而且來建立資料庫來進行分析那我們現在沒有直接的這樣的一個機制來主委說明一下"},{"start":3476.824,"end":3494.09,"text":"我們有這個機制啦我們現在的志願報告系統就是這個機制但是我們沒有依法他們要有發生這種異常事故的異常事件的時候就要依法就要通報銀行會我們是要依照志願報告系統"},{"start":3496.168,"end":3507.017,"text":"除了資源包括系統以外各機關他們有發生像Niamis也就是說那個這個Niamis就是襲擊事件什麼他們都會通報我們這邊都有統計"},{"start":3509.983,"end":3524.955,"text":"目前為止都幾乎百分之一百都通報交通部各單位發生這樣的異常事件不是事故喔異常事件的時候他們就會依法直接通報你們是嗎你要確定喔"},{"start":3528.257,"end":3541.278,"text":"相關台鐵每年發生的異常事件是非常的多你們沒見他們都有依法通報你們嗎因為當他通報有一些匿名是比較冷你們還要主動向他們調閱勒"},{"start":3543.305,"end":3558.558,"text":"沒有當他累積到某一個就是的時候我們跟他講說你這是這個事件好像是頻率很高的時候就如同這個委員一直關心的我們會啟動所以目前都是都是兩邊是互通沒有沒有說會是"},{"start":3560.279,"end":3579.216,"text":"你的了解跟認知跟我有差距運安會從非安會從你在當民進黨局副局長的時候我就在交通委員會長期就在推動運安會相關的組織以及它運作的狀況當然我非常清楚我們在過去是自願報告系統自願呢"},{"start":3581.058,"end":3607.784,"text":"不是依法就要通報我們相關運安會建立資料庫的現在是這個機制的它的主動性跟消極性的差別呢你去了解啦 你去了解啦你們的組織法跟調查法還是我訂的呢這個機制希望你能夠去了解一下那我們從事故預防啊它的"},{"start":3609.305,"end":3627.915,"text":"預防的這種分析它的完整性資料的完整性資料完整性的分析是很重要所以我說不只是志願報告系統而是要主動的來提供依法就要提供給我們的運安會而且要建立資料庫來做統計跟分析那"},{"start":3628.875,"end":3650.692,"text":"事前預防都是國際趨勢都可以看出我們必須要做這樣一個積極的作為那預安會能夠掌握這種交通事故以及異常事件的資訊對促進交通安全的重要性是非常的重要所以我建議就是要擴大資料的調閱權限"},{"start":3652.981,"end":3671.49,"text":"我們要 運安會有主動的這樣的一個權限我們來檢討一下相關的法令的機制因為現在只是自願報告系統而且啊 只是你們要釣魚的時候跟他們要 他們會給而不是依法每一件都要送到你們這邊而且要建立資料庫的一個分析"},{"start":3672.318,"end":3692.894,"text":"另外也要跟交通部來協調取得各交通系統資料庫調閱的權限公路局的資料 台鐵公司的資料 高鐵公司的資料你們隨時都應該可以取得相關的這樣的一個資訊而且要進行統計分析來做預防的一個工作"},{"start":3693.675,"end":3722.078,"text":"那長期來說 我認為應該要建立資料自動 介接同步的一個整合的資料庫各交通主管機關來協調所需的資料 而且要建立交換的格式這個請主委跟我們相關的人員 朝這個方面來努力最後就是強化分級的管理 來推動安全的一個改善"},{"start":3723.039,"end":3745.105,"text":"異常事件或事故的趨勢分析以及改善建議我們要以風險的危害性以及發生的機率來進行分級列出改善的優先次序及急迫性通知主管機關並且進行公告來請主委最後做一個說明目前我們醫院會的運作狀況"},{"start":3747.15,"end":3769.952,"text":"我們目前的運作通報確實是有分級啦那如同剛剛委員講的我們事實上可以把這個分級再嚴謹一點比較好謝謝主委我們這個工作都是很重要的關係到事件不只是事後調查我們在事前的預防相關資料分析來建立這樣的一個交通安全改善的一個重要基礎"},{"start":3770.632,"end":3781.534,"text":"這也是過去我提出啊 年度交通安全改善建立的這樣的一個建立書啊一個重要的基礎啦 以上好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝李坤澤委員的質詢好 現在請林國成、張偉質詢好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3799.315,"end":3807.458,"text":"我想請林主委 何滬主委張委員 林委員 竹密執行長好 主委我為什麼把所有重要的人"},{"start":3828.629,"end":3830.875,"text":"都把他請來我還是要呼籲"},{"start":3832.366,"end":3861.532,"text":"因為有一些人家還在說你們在內鬥可是我一再跟他講林主委領導之下現在已經一團和氣你也知道內鬥就無華工作但是團結就有辦法去對外所以我特別要請五位不管是副主委或委員或者執行長主任你們現在主委"},{"start":3862.506,"end":3881.566,"text":"就做林主委所以他的領導就會影響整個我們應安會的組織功能調查等等這些的事情所以請你們上來主要讓你們有責任的一個分享那我也要拜託主委"},{"start":3882.327,"end":3909.098,"text":"不要落人口舌一直好像我們應安會單位不大但是給人家留下口舌這樣就不好這樣就不好這個我特別要提醒你在領導過程當中因為我們的單位是一個專業單位為什麼要冠上國家兩制國家兩制就是非常"},{"start":3909.958,"end":3924.376,"text":"我們的獨立調查的一個單位這點我要 期免啊 我們啊所有的官員跟主委在領導之下要有領導統一才有辦法去針對交通事故"},{"start":3925.177,"end":3940.792,"text":"你 你知道這個責任非常重大欸你陸上 航空 海運通通我們在做調查所以 主委你的責任重大在領導之下要把這些要團結一致這是我給你們的一個啟齊好那個"},{"start":3944.281,"end":3972.666,"text":"主委因為那個三重跟台南這個案件啊說實在是社會矚目啦也就是說不管他今天發生的事故到底是什麼可是我還是要拜託主委你們有沒有辦法把這個時程既然社會矚目的交通事故的調查有沒有可能不要一窮不變"},{"start":3974.506,"end":3999.323,"text":"單純的調查在三個月 六個月就把它完成不要因為我們的規定啊要一年啊 要兩年啊我跟你講 台灣話說一句話啊這就廢笑啊就廢話啊 你是在調查什麼社會矚目 要有一個社會矚目的調查的時辰所以 主委 有沒有可能就是加快腳步"},{"start":4000.203,"end":4027.655,"text":"三到六個月就把真相把它調查清楚有沒有可能我也希望這樣子加快啦但是它有一定的程序在走啦我可以加進不要12個月也許提早到11個月多但是因為這個調查官都是獨立做而且我剛剛報告過我們分成車輛分組分成操作分組生還因素分組紀錄器分組這些都是要科學儀器再測再量再走好 那個主委"},{"start":4028.556,"end":4038.184,"text":"我們蠻期待這樣啦 社會矚目的問題越早讓公布社會 讓社會知道越好 也會樹立到我們應安會裡面調查的威信問題啦所以我還是"},{"start":4043.129,"end":4071.537,"text":"希望我們上台的這幾位重要幹部好好研究一下單純的速度就快複雜的當然要有時效的問題這個我們也是支持但是我們蠻期待的像這種公路或什麼你航空 海運這個是比較困難可是道路的問題是比較單純所以我還是希望在這個部分要加速腳步"},{"start":4072.677,"end":4076.794,"text":"好 另外一個問題就是從單一的調查"},{"start":4078.291,"end":4105.844,"text":"可以解決系統的問題那這裡啊單一的問題也就是系統的問題你們要怎麼要有固定我看你們從來也沒有做這只有把調查報告出來以後就交給各有關單位他們去改善但是我還是在這裡一個建議啦單一的事項調查有可能解決系統性的問題"},{"start":4106.664,"end":4128.859,"text":"也不是說你每一件調查以後 但是系統性是沒有解決啊所以有沒有可能我建議 也就是上台的這幾位重要幹部要常跟 要常跟交通部的運輸研究所因為為什麼 那些運輸研究所 他是在研究"},{"start":4129.861,"end":4155.002,"text":"他的結構性他的事情的發生但是你們調查以後丟給他們他們沒有在做研究那等於沒有系統性的解決所以在這個部分我還是滿建議這個應該主委你主動下去做就是請他們我調查出來的時候請你來表示意見也就是我調查出來的缺點跟調查出來的結構"},{"start":4156.653,"end":4172.447,"text":"哪邊有問題他們去研究才好我看這現在研究機構跟你們調查機構他做他的他做那怎麼會有系統性的解決呢所以主委你針對本席給你建議這些你有什麼看法"},{"start":4173.101,"end":4201.049,"text":"我覺得是很好的建議耶我覺得是很好的建議我們可以跟他溝通看看他能不能選擇性的做研究沒有 你要主動要求你要主動要求我相信啊 交通部啊 部長啊他也不會反對 為什麼系統性解決 事端就會少可是問題現在就是這樣啊一切為二 他做他的研究你做你的調查就會形成什麼沒有系統性的連結"},{"start":4201.969,"end":4228.941,"text":"也就是單一事件發生並非解決系統的問題那他的研究單位存在跟你的調查單位存在永遠格格不入他的研究是提供給交通政策但是你的調查只基於調查可是那研究單位不知道啊他研究不出來系統性如何去解決所以我要拜託主委你主動"},{"start":4230.063,"end":4255.994,"text":"你主動主動邀請他們把資料提供給他們可是他們研究不出來你的責任已了我認為應該要怎麼做但是你們研究出來也不提供給交通部那當然就會形成現在這個交通的這種紛亂因為你們的研究單位現在我特別跟主委說明你們現在的權威性"},{"start":4256.974,"end":4282.164,"text":"跟專業性越來越重人民期待你們的真相所以你不得不做這些所以我拜託這個部分那另外一個最後我要特別也就是說我們自願報到系統也就是公路這個成效很差的你回去這一組要特別來下一張這個你看一下"},{"start":4283.482,"end":4302.803,"text":"各位當然啦 因為任何的事情要民意代表跟你們指責出來指點出來你們才去做研究啦從108年到現在你們這個案子到最後調查出來公開成案的機率非常少也就是"},{"start":4304.345,"end":4317.44,"text":"這個自願報告的案件數59件但是 成案的只有15件會在這個部分 去做說明這代表什麼 這代表 宣導是不做的啦"},{"start":4318.328,"end":4346.727,"text":"所以我主張我主張也就是剛才我講的跟那個交通部的運輸手我們多研究你編一點預算嘛你們自動編嘛跟他們做一個交流甚至於我還是主張你們要去多去什麼多編一點預算要去跟國外人家做的非常有系統的這些調查單位去做交流這點我個人是蠻支持的"},{"start":4347.527,"end":4366.139,"text":"蠻支持的因為你沒有國際國際的做研究那最後確確實實在這個部分我們只有蹲在台灣的東西別人的先進國際的東西我們接軌不來的話我們永遠都是這樣改變不了系統性所以這點我還是要建議"},{"start":4367.26,"end":4388.277,"text":"下年度可能要快編預算我認為這個一定要去編預算所以希望啊我們主委要去爭取這兩個系統一個就是該宣導的你們要宣導第二個該跟學術團體做研究出來才有辦法改變系統性的東西所以我希望主委"},{"start":4388.977,"end":4415.546,"text":"還有今天上來的重要幹部包括副主委包括這個各位專委還有我們這些執行長跟這個主秘這個部分你們要共同幫主委提供一點意見把它及時廣益把它做到最後歸納可以調查跟研究結合把它改變系統性的東西可以不可以 主委好 我們朝這方面來努力好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":4428.802,"end":4443.053,"text":"好接下來我們林進憲委員來執行感謝主席 本席邀請我們應安會的林主委好 林主委"},{"start":4448.522,"end":4472.5,"text":"主委好 今天我們很多委員在這裡跟主委關心三峽那種重大車禍事件那現在運動委員把他列案調查了嘛是不是這樣這個大概是我國第一件有造成行人死傷的公路車禍案件我特別強調行人啦 行人的死傷"},{"start":4473.683,"end":4502.996,"text":"那過去按照運安會的內部規定你要造成這種公路重大車禍的死傷要死亡3人或者是死傷10人或者是受傷15人後來我當時你要記得吧主委我就要求我們運安會應該要修改內規啦你要恢復你的罷房條款就是只要運安會認定有調查必要的你都有權利去立案調查啦那現在運安會也這樣好像在今年2月把它改過了嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":4504.737,"end":4525.158,"text":"現在這個調查 這個報案條款目前就是重要還是要用啦你本來是沒有的嘛本來有 本來舊條款也有舊條款你把它拿掉啦 後來請你們再把它改回來嘛那指揮你也把它改回來嘛所以你現在可以立案調查了啦但是你知道我國重大的行政案件有多少嗎我隨便舉個例子給你看"},{"start":4527.796,"end":4553.894,"text":"你看2022年我就舉這幾年了啦2022年的年底啦台中公車在斑馬縣撞上一家三口啦一個媽媽跟嬰兒死亡那2023年1月啊宜蘭東山的女學生在斑馬縣上被煞車給壓死然後同年的5月台南有一對母女在斑馬縣被撞母親捲入車底三歲女童重撞身亡"},{"start":4555.066,"end":4581.959,"text":"再來還有2023年三重發生一位台藝美國的大學生男生出門運動在巴馬縣結果拖到車撞死了我隨便寫幾個都是非常悲痛的慘案給主委你參考一下就是其實台灣過去已經發生這麼多起的重大行人死傷事件"},{"start":4583.291,"end":4612.103,"text":"那以前運安會都沒有做類似的調查因為按照以前運安會的規範可能沒有每一個個案來看都沒有達到你的立案調查的那個標準但你把它累積來看你就知道為什麼台灣會被稱為行人地獄你個案看覺得沒什麼你全部累積你就發現這個不會是單一偶然的個案"},{"start":4613.922,"end":4629.738,"text":"所以這一連串那是不是系統性造成的風險這當中過去都是交通部在調查警政署在調查造勢原因是不是這樣那原因是什麼不是什麼行人耗資動線規劃不良"},{"start":4631.792,"end":4660.775,"text":"最近也有提到的高齡駕駛的管理和危險駕駛的處理第三 車種 車輛的管理或大型車轉彎視角 死角的風險還有道路設計空間規劃的問題還有用路人習慣步驟的問題 都一大堆啦那到底各個單位的調查我們有沒有辦法做一個整體性的研究這恐怕要靠運安委啦"},{"start":4662.692,"end":4674.166,"text":"那主委你現在對於這樣的一種新人死傷的調查你有什麼樣的個人看法嗎我想對所謂脆弱用路人的這個事故或命案"},{"start":4675.663,"end":4700.908,"text":"我們會持續關注啦那該立案我們還是要立案啦你只有立這個案喔你過去從來沒有啊我相信你只立第一個案啦這個個案可能以後還會當然我們不希望發生啦但是我們會持續關注啦那我們希望啦今天慾望會能能定出一個讓我們大家以後可以真的好好的來改善啦因為慾望會的"},{"start":4702.553,"end":4713.462,"text":"組織法裡面就有規定了 院安會有運輸事故趨勢分析這個可能就了解它是不是一個系統性的問題然後要提出運輸安全專案研究"},{"start":4714.96,"end":4735.837,"text":"但是運安會從2019年成立以來到現在你的組織章程裡面說運安會有權要提出專案研究你給他提出兩個我找到現在只找到兩個一個是飲水人的專案研究報告一個就是貨運業專案研究報告除了都沒有啦是不是沒有看過啦來我再給"},{"start":4743.342,"end":4762.753,"text":"主委你參考一下國外的案例你看美國的運安會美國運安會就針對行人事故他有一個Safety Research Report在這裡在他的安全的研究報告裡面他特別有針對行人"},{"start":4765.471,"end":4793.063,"text":"Special Investigation Report有沒有 他是針對Pedestrian Safety你看到吧針對行人這是美國運安會喔而且他早在2018年就提出來了他認為行人走路啊不可能連續這樣發生車禍啊因為他這邊有列出來就是車禍發生的案例啊就好像我剛剛列給你的他有這些案例所以美國運安會主動去調查"},{"start":4795.373,"end":4819.651,"text":"主動去調查然後他就寫出了這樣的一份行人安全的專 特別啦他說特別研究報告這其實就是所謂國家設立運安會的目的也是你們運安會的職責啦那現在啊 總算有第一件啦我覺得也可能是因為啊"},{"start":4820.728,"end":4847.063,"text":"媒體壓力太大啦這個重大車禍引起社會很大的一個憤怒所以我覺得運安會這個時候當然是不要介入啦不管你是不是受到壓力介入啦那既然運安會正式立案調查我們希望運安會能夠給我們大家做出一個系統性的研究你就看一下 看一看"},{"start":4848.547,"end":4875.189,"text":"台灣過去已經發生那麼多的重大的行人死亡的那個案件其實過去都沒有引起社會很大的一個反響反正就是幾天新聞 過去就沒有了沒有人關心就算了現在我們剛好利用三峽事件我們請運安會的專業能夠提供未來相關的行政該管部會能夠如何來改善"},{"start":4876.948,"end":4902.608,"text":"來 維護行人安全好不好是是這樣好不好好 謝謝委員主委我也希望運安會能夠有一定的權威和專業才能得到社會的重視和尊重啊如果大家把運安會當作什麼單位啊你從立委重視的程度就看出來啦給人家對立委質詢 行李都不來啦沒什麼立委要來啦"},{"start":4904.205,"end":4924.019,"text":"大家會覺得你這個什麼單位不是很重要所以運安會要開始要拿出自己的一個你們的權威和專業出來說服大家嘛你給大家看嘛不然你這個單位你們自己你們自己做到有什麼榮譽感說你這兩個單位服務我在運安會那你什麼單位你幹什麼的這是一個運安會啊表演的一個機會啦"},{"start":4932.079,"end":4945.387,"text":"尤其剛我們林國城委員對各位也有一些的勉勵都叫你們多交流多跟外界的所以林國城委員每年不會給你們抬預算有時候要抬你們都要跑到出口你們看"},{"start":4947.798,"end":4964.581,"text":"所以明年 林國仁委員會支持你們的預算我先替他講你們出國預算也好 業務費也好 也來積極主席 我們一起有共同的期望希望應安會能夠扮演該有的一個角色 謝謝主委謝謝主席好 謝謝林進憲委員的執行"},{"start":4972.503,"end":4981.234,"text":"那特別因為林憲憲委員這種啟喜跟勉勵跟本席的看法完全一樣其實該給的立法院也不會吝嗇啦"},{"start":4982.915,"end":5001.643,"text":"那該給的該有用的我相信我們交通委員會所有的委員都會支持所以在這個國際研究的部分跟考察的部分這基本上本來就是要去做的那另外就是跟我們交通部的那個研究"},{"start":5003.284,"end":5018.515,"text":"運輸研究所那個要連結你們都沒有連結你做你的他做他的我還是希望有連結性才有辦法改變系統性好不好來接下來由陳樹葉委員執行謝謝主席請主席邀請林主委應安會林主委"},{"start":5035.381,"end":5055.639,"text":"主委早安今天委員會的委員都在關心就是5月19號三峽那個就是發生的這個重大的車禍事故因為造成了3人死亡12人重傷的這樣子的一個車禍事故真的是舉國嘩然因為那個畫面真的是令人真的是"},{"start":5056.785,"end":5074.451,"text":"就是不忍那個看下去那因為在這個事件發生之後那網路上就很多的一個推測因為看到有網友說這個駕駛好像是路怒症然後我也有看到有網友分析說"},{"start":5075.351,"end":5079.436,"text":"他可能是這個駕駛的那部車的機械問題啊因為他在轉彎的時候就是卡住了那倒車的時候又撞到後面的車那心急之下心慌之下可能就是這個肇事逃逸又加上這個車輛"},{"start":5091.508,"end":5109.863,"text":"可能就是失去控制等等有各種不同的揣測其實這樣子的一個揣測當然就是也不是一個好的現象因為我們也希望就是說車禍事故也希望就是透過專業的單位來釐清就是這個車禍的原因然後找出原因之後當然我們也是要來預防我相信這也是雲灣會的一個職責所在"},{"start":5116.008,"end":5136.72,"text":"那我們也看到就是5月21號我們雲南會也正式宣布說要立案調查那本席先請教一下就是這個案子預計多久可以完成正式的調查報告就是不要說什麼初步的調查就是說整個結案然後向國人報告這樣子一個正式報告需要多久時間"},{"start":5139.046,"end":5155.774,"text":"這個案子是一級案一級案一般是一個月出報然後大概六個月以後有一個事實資料報告然後在一年之後最終的報告會出來但是這個案子我們投入了15個人在調查那我希望能夠縮短"},{"start":5157.04,"end":5185.863,"text":"縮短希望能夠縮短時間那就是剛剛主委有提到說這個我們是列為一級的一個事故那是不是可以請主委簡單說一下這個分級我們是怎麼樣去分級怎樣去認定這個分級這個分級是這樣子因為每個像航空水路鐵道公路它都有複雜度並不一樣那分級這個也是跟國際間都是大概都差不多到的效應但是講到因為譬如說航空"},{"start":5187.123,"end":5202.049,"text":"有些分期你認為是說我應該18個月我應該15個月可是有些航空機譬如說它的發動機或是它的很多結構物要送到國外去檢驗或什麼這個就有時候不在我們控制之內一般都可以在原則之內把它完成"},{"start":5202.569,"end":5229.2,"text":"是是那因為我們看到就是從2019年我們運安會改制之後啊就是總共執行了24件的重大是公路事故的一個調查那我們也發現就是說這些調查平均都有提早了2.4個月所以我們在這邊也希望就是說因為這個是一個全國矚目的一個重大車禍事故然後我們也希望就是說能夠儘早完成這個調查然後讓"},{"start":5231.341,"end":5254.377,"text":"就是可以一方面也是可以找出原因然後預防類似的事件在發生那另一方面也可以安定人心啊因為太多的揣測我覺得對社會也是不好的一個影響是不是那個主委是我們也是朝這個方向在做是好那我知道說我們對於整個就是運安會在執行這個重大車禍事故的一個調查可能就是"},{"start":5256.218,"end":5263.92,"text":"主要應該是兩個方面一個就是事實資料的一個收集以及包括後續分析作業那在這兩個方向可能在事實資料收集方的環節需要這個車禍事故的殘骸蒐證現場測量"},{"start":5274.424,"end":5286.265,"text":"紀錄器解讀跟人員訪談還有測試模擬等諸多項目那包括這麼多的一個工作要做那我請問一下就是主委這些工作啊我們的人員需要出差嗎"},{"start":5287.625,"end":5314.009,"text":"要 需要出差 要出差啦那因為我們也真的是就是很遺憾就是說看到今年度我們運營會的這個預算雖然今天我們是處理解凍當然就是說解凍的部分都已經處理完畢了可是針對國內旅費的部分事實上也是經過藍白聯手統三了20%統三之後我不曉得說這樣子的預算"},{"start":5317.37,"end":5346.309,"text":"可以就是來應付就是我們的這個就是相關的事故調查的量能嗎我們會變成會比較比較節縮啦但是就是就是會現在每一筆錢就會用得很緊啦但是國外就很吃苦啦國外很吃苦國外的非常非常非常痛苦因為我們要參加國外的會議啊去跟人家參加研討會議都現在都縮掉了這是比較痛苦"},{"start":5347.33,"end":5369.611,"text":"國外的部分就比較痛苦剛剛我們也聽到我們的召委對我們這個運安會有很大的期許也很支持說我們要多進行這個交流就是國外交流的部分事實上國外的旅費我們是整個所有的中央政府的各部會是全部被捅散60%的"},{"start":5371.613,"end":5376.863,"text":"這個規模是很大嘛所以被同山60%之後我們這樣預算大概剩多少"},{"start":5379.977,"end":5404.592,"text":"一百多萬而已嘛所以我們國外今年因為我們有參加國外很多的會議甚至我們是成員國嘛變成會排擠啦一定是會排擠的啦所以我們也是希望就是剛剛趙委員對你們有很大的期許啊那應該就是如我們林俊憲委員說的啦明年"},{"start":5405.092,"end":5429.957,"text":"我們稍微就不會再刪你們這個預算了我們也希望就是說未來在這個部分應該就是要支持讓我們因為整個社會的期待也希望我們孕安會的一個權威跟專業性應該就是要受到國人的一個肯定的所以這個部分真的就是說出國交流的部分真的是非常的重要"},{"start":5431.057,"end":5450.865,"text":"尤其是開會 譬如說我們是國際藝術安全調查安全所長聯會 我們是每一年一定要去開在這個平台上 我們國家的能限度 我們跟各國交換一些調查專業技術等等如果不去 確實是很遺憾"},{"start":5451.445,"end":5476.301,"text":"是是好那最後就是在這邊本席還在強調就是說我們依據運輸事故調查法第五條規定運安會對重大的運輸事故的調查旨在避免運輸事故的再發生所以這個就是在強調我們運安會最重要的工作就是要找出交通事故的這個原因並提出改善的一個建議那我們看到就是說"},{"start":5478.479,"end":5487.425,"text":"截至這個2024年就是去年為止 運營會針對重大的公路事故調查總共提出了改善的建議是158項那目前剩14項待改善改善率高達86%那就是說這些改善建議對於"},{"start":5498.312,"end":5524.089,"text":"就是交通的一個安全到底有沒有具體的改善我想這個才是國人重視的另外對這剩餘14項還沒有改善的這部分我們有去了解是什麼原因嗎對這些還沒改善的是因為它要編預算然後它還要修滑或什麼等等比較慢但是事實上我們都有具體成果譬如說騰龍岸對遊覽車車體的安全 座椅的安全"},{"start":5527.751,"end":5541.861,"text":"譬如說南方澳大橋那個案子就對橋樑安全就有改善大陸安全等等我想這個應該就是我們國人所期待需要的對江湖安全有具體改善成效的一個部分"},{"start":5542.842,"end":5560.426,"text":"是好我想這部分也是大家對於運營會的一個期許那我們也希望就是說在這部分不管是未來的就是國內的旅費或者是國外旅費的需求我們也希望就是我們全體委員都能夠支持好謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝好謝謝陳樹業委員的執行現在請喜智傑召委執行"},{"start":5581.768,"end":5608.163,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請議員會林主委主委好主委好主委我想很多委員都有問到這個三峽78歲這個三十的重大車禍那你們要調查一年喔要這麼久嗎"},{"start":5609.889,"end":5614.132,"text":"所以我是覺得運安會這樣子的態度我是覺得比較不積極啦"},{"start":5638.477,"end":5656.54,"text":"該有的程序當然我們會認為要做沒有錯該做的科學監聽當然我們也沒有叫你們要少啊但是這個在一般的民眾看起來這些事情要一年你們應該可以加快速度吧"},{"start":5658.238,"end":5682.43,"text":"事實上我們內部我有召開一個會議跟他們講說可不可以再縮短再縮短就跟為所關切一樣事實上我們在明年的一二月的草案就應該要出來了是啊但是我們還要經過委員會的程序我是這樣建議啦我是覺得你們運安會的執掌你看喔發覺事故根本原因及潛在風險並提出改善建議是"},{"start":5684.308,"end":5711.073,"text":"運營會其實不是只是事故的時候出現嘛運營會在平常的時候怎麼出現 用什麼角色出現就是你針對重大事故或者是針對國內的你們以前遇過的那現在你要去找出事故的根本跟潛在的風險那你們認為應該要怎麼樣才能夠讓運輸安全可以做得更好嗎"},{"start":5713.393,"end":5739.205,"text":"就像委員平常的關切的用AI我們現在現在有一些通報案子進來通報不一定要立案但是通報進來的時候我們都會開始用比較科學化的去統計說這個譬如說蓄積事件台鐵那我們講說這個好像有那個系統化的風險的問題的時候我們就會主動跟台鐵講對啊 所以你們有一些譬如說"},{"start":5740.543,"end":5768.648,"text":"你們的具體建議對國家的運輸安全有重大影響的可不可以讓你整理一些給我看沒有問題你比如說普悠瑪比如說太魯閣這個事故這麼嚴重這麼多年了那有沒有哪一項哪幾項是因為你們運營會的建議然後有具體的改善或者是說後面你們建議的還沒有改善你們有沒有追蹤"},{"start":5770.39,"end":5788.307,"text":"就是我希望他改善的但是他現在還沒改善我是覺得我一直覺得運安會給我的感覺就是我想看的那個積極性的主動性的那個效果但是不容易看到所以我希望說運安會其實可以調整比如說好我們針對"},{"start":5795.271,"end":5821.926,"text":"這一次的78歲的長者啦 事實上我們運輸安全不是針對年齡高低嘛 對不對我們運輸安全是針對安全駕駛嘛那你如何能夠有安全駕駛的空間 現在交通部也在研議嘛那運安會有沒有功能有沒有角色 有沒有建議以上是我自己我們秘書去查的啦 讓你當參考啦"},{"start":5824.815,"end":5851.455,"text":"就是說換照的制度換照的制度台灣現在是75歲以後然後呢新加坡、韓國是65歲以後日本、美國是70歲以後英國是年滿70歲自動失效然後法國是15年體檢一次那從安全價值的角度來看"},{"start":5852.932,"end":5877.922,"text":"這個換照的年齡不能說只針對老人也不要讓老人誤解一個長輩發生車禍我們說的長輩要受害不是這樣而是就是說我從安全駕駛的角度來看我應該是多久或者是幾歲或者是重大傷病有一個不一樣的安全駕駛的"},{"start":5880.061,"end":5902.117,"text":"觀念去針對這個換照制度做一個調整不是只是針對老人我強調一次而是強調的是安全駕駛人家90歲了你個畫面機能很好像我們看到那個市莊醫那一百零幾歲了還能夠打羽毛球對不對人家身體好"},{"start":5903.137,"end":5927.773,"text":"各項健康檢查都通過他要繼續開車那當然就符合標準就可以開啊所以不是年紀的問題啊那這個部分雲南會可有想法年齡的問題當然跟委員講的我想一樣啦不是說作為不是真正的意願我說雲南會可有作為啦對我們的作為是這樣我們事實上對事務我們是"},{"start":5932.476,"end":5952.372,"text":"調查然後我們對症下藥嗎那如果對症下藥找出來的原因如果跟交通部的一些就剛剛講高齡然後認識安全駕駛有關係我們會跟他連結啦對我的意思就是說因為時間差不多了重點我是我一直期盼雲南會主動出擊啦事故當然是被動出擊嘛但是"},{"start":5953.666,"end":5968.571,"text":"掌握事故根本原因潛在風險提出改善建立這個應該是主動出擊是是是好不好是我們之後會把一些資料給委員報告好好這個部分希望雲南會可以加強好是好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝喜智傑召委現在請習護魁委員執行"},{"start":5988.619,"end":6008.917,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林主委主委早 主委我想我剛剛聽到我們前面幾位委員針對這個三峽事故的一個詢問那我聽到主委的答案 我覺得很遺憾 主委"},{"start":6010.859,"end":6032.75,"text":"一個這樣的案子竟然要調查一年才會出爐那我們交通部這個部長隔天就已經有宣布了一些新的一些政策甚至在下個月這些政策就要陸續上路但是萬一你們調查的結果跟我們交通部推出的改革的一個政策不一樣的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":6034.151,"end":6055.665,"text":"這會不會有這樣一個矛盾的問題應該不會不會好 主委我想這個我們最近我們看到包含我們的這個很多的現在這個都會區包含我們這個很多的重要的一個鄉鎮我們的標誌標線甚至這個燈號都會做一些調整改善那我想我們都是為了行人安全"},{"start":6056.365,"end":6073.211,"text":"那我想三峽這個事故一樣,它那個標誌標線也要清澈啊啊為什麼還有發生這樣的一個狀況難道這個必須還要花一年的時間才能夠調查,不能有一個初步的一個結果趕快讓交通部做一個後續改革的一個參考嗎,這樣不能加快時程"},{"start":6074.622,"end":6097.667,"text":"加快施捨就自從我報告過了我們現在動員15個人在調查這個案子我們會想辦法把它縮短它自己縮短到一個月或多久我還不知道因為要看過程中我們都清楚因為我們現在你們職責裡面當然我們是必須要把問題理清楚那你們現在手邊的案子也這麼多我剛剛聽到你們動員了15個人在處理這個案對不對"},{"start":6102.128,"end":6119.082,"text":"好 我也擔心 你們先15個人調來處理這個案子之後把過去累積的案子 再放在一邊針對這些水路 公路 航空的事件調查結果是不是又要拖延很久會不會又造成一個惡劑循環會排擠 會排擠這排擠你要改過 人家不只說排擠我們現在說的這個案子 差不多大家都在加班"},{"start":6125.379,"end":6141.531,"text":"是啦 所以我們也是希望不能因為這樣 要創一間創到這麼久 其他又崩壞這樣未來你這些政策的調整是要怎麼跟得上我們的腳步可以做的條件不然這一年保庇都不能再出事故 沒法情恥好 這邏輯很奇怪啊"},{"start":6143.672,"end":6156.135,"text":"我們其他組我們會彈性調度人力不支援啦我們希望不要這樣子的 這樣的內部的一個調整造成我們過去的一個調查機制的一個延宕 我覺得這是不對的一個方向啦"},{"start":6158.11,"end":6159.31,"text":"現在這個都上網在對外招考"},{"start":6187.489,"end":6200.125,"text":"都在民謠中沒有做這個坦白講我們也不可以隨便說阿媽阿狗都不可以我們一些專業事實上他有來到後來我們像我們有一組人進來的時候後來也經過委員去討論說好像"},{"start":6203.689,"end":6223.327,"text":"比較沒什麼苛刻 後來又重新對我來講所以我們很謹慎啦我們謹慎用專業的人啦但是你沒有找人你就不知道要做什麼這我們也是很緊的請神容易送神難啦 就很累啦就還是要謹慎啦你都叫你沒信心 你找人你都沒信心有啦 有啦 有啦 這很奇怪的邏輯啊"},{"start":6226.84,"end":6241.322,"text":"所以我想我們都很願意剛剛包含我們很多委員都很願意支持我們運營會的預算我們也希望補足你們的人力但是相對性你們要把你們的工作表現績效呈現出來這對國人比較有交代"},{"start":6243.605,"end":6266.73,"text":"我們的成效確實是很多我想我事後會把一些我們過去譬如說去年前年的我跟委員報告只是我們可能利於表達沒有讓人覺得說主委我們不要漂亮的報告我們要實務的作為啦好不好這真的是對我們整個運輸交通事故最重要的一個關鍵啦是是是你報告什麼"},{"start":6267.93,"end":6279.783,"text":"現在這麼漂亮,Paper這樣漂亮有什麼用?數據就不改善了,這有什麼用?這很矛盾的啦主委你有信心嗎?我都怕你因為我們調查出來的結果各主管機關,他們比較積極,我們就比較有成就感"},{"start":6289.98,"end":6307.625,"text":"阿你這樣 我覺得這又是道國的原因阿你不趕快報 趕快出來讓這個業務單位可以做改善 它是怎麼辦我們有些調查案 調查期間我們說會不會通告好 你想你這樣三峽事故一年後我想今天又發生一個 看了一個新聞一個九十幾歲的阿伯"},{"start":6309.045,"end":6327.395,"text":"人要走車就這樣 沒辦法走車還要人家插 這要怎麼開車類似這種事件我們都很擔心 但是你們現在針對交通部未來的政策你們可不可以先給一個方向 先給一個調查的一個結果我覺得這是大家要相輔相成最後來處理努力的一個結果啦我們會加速這個調查的期程"},{"start":6330.883,"end":6346.32,"text":"所以我想我們去年 醫院會提出了99個改善的建議分別是這個水路有55項這個鐵路有19項跟公路21項水路佔了將近很大的一個比例那尤其這個"},{"start":6347.361,"end":6373.013,"text":"因為立案調查的有162件的漁船的重大的水路事故我想我來組這個民進我們有很多的一個漁船的一個業者大家都希望可以平安但是這樣的一個事故發生 主委依你們現在目前的調查狀況到底需要改善的部會是農業部、交通部還是勞動部這跟我解明確的答案"},{"start":6373.982,"end":6399.1,"text":"目前最需要改善水路的應該是交通部 航港局他的案子最多原因是 什麼 原因出在哪裡原因就是他飲水人的作業的問題 飲水人法規 飲水人辦事處的問題最大對 找出問題之後 現在怎麼解決現在他局長也很積極 他們成立一個專案小組 每個月都在開會包括法規的修訂 包括執行面的問題等等"},{"start":6399.86,"end":6407.664,"text":"什麼時候會有一個具體的改善結果這個應該今年內會有很重大的一個進展因為他開會都有請我們過去練習跟他們討論"},{"start":6413.192,"end":6433.717,"text":"主委我還是要提醒依我們調閱到資料目前改善的完成率來看水路事故這兩年的改善完成率都是最低的那漁業也是我們很重要的一個產業我想這個漁業委員會則無旁貸怎麼樣強化我們這個水路跟漁船主委的安全主委可不可以再加快施程對 謝謝"},{"start":6436.906,"end":6460.574,"text":"好那另外我想我們這個我最近也一直針對我們小琉球跟昆町我們這個海域因為我們有很多潛水的一個遊客那我們發現了這個潛水的那個區域劃分跟所謂的一個漁船的這個航道頂尿不該清澈造成潛水客在這個航道裡面浮潛被漁船撞到這屬狗這隻魚"},{"start":6463.016,"end":6472.366,"text":"我想運營會也應該要來積極協調相關部會去做一個有效的釐清這該當是行政部門應該要怎麼去規範這樣的一個禁止一個潛水的行為"},{"start":6473.73,"end":6500.632,"text":"這後壁湖這個外海潛水客被漁船羅先生講打傷是這個案子是個案啦那我們有跟航港局那邊有跟他們聯絡說這個案子你們要去調查因為就如同委員講你們這個區域方面好像不清楚啦所以我們還是要希望趕快來做調查啊對啊我們有跟他們講這個案子雖然雖然我們沒有調查但是我們有資料跟他們聯繫對不只後壁湖喔連小琉球都有發生這種狀況小琉球也是喔是啊這很危險的是"},{"start":6503.496,"end":6526.466,"text":"主委 我想這樣我們再積極來處理好不好是 我也來開一個合標會我們來一起來共同來協調這個案子是 謝謝委員 指導好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝謝謝習富奎委員的執行現在請蔡其昌副院長執行蔡其昌副院長執行晚休息十分鐘請副院長"},{"start":6533.025,"end":6561.457,"text":"謝謝主席 請林主任委員好 應安衛林主委主委早主委早主委我想從那個三峽的車禍發生到今天在立法院我想很多委員不分朝野都很關心那社會大眾國人對這個案子到底是什麼樣的原因也都充滿著關心猜測那"},{"start":6563.612,"end":6581.943,"text":"主委現在的調查大概狀況進行到哪裡現在大概一個月內會有粗報出來那麼10月份會有一個事實資料報告出來那依據明年的1月草案就要出來然後明年5月會在委員會通過"},{"start":6584.484,"end":6603.383,"text":"我們動員的四個分組的人力大概有數個人力我希望能夠縮短這是我的期望好 這個就是大家都期待嘛我看徐副委員也是一樣大家都期待你能夠縮短那其實他最關鍵的大家為什麼會著急"},{"start":6605.425,"end":6628.722,"text":"是因為它會事故發生的原因 它會涉及未來在交通部也好 或者其他相關部會也好在許多政策的擬定上面會以事故最終的原因來做報告 來做調查一個車禍的發生 它有可能是機械問題它有可能是人為問題那人為問題裡面"},{"start":6631.977,"end":6648.853,"text":"因為大家知道他是一個有年紀的先生那年紀是不是影響駕駛的安全的關鍵或者跟年紀無關年輕人也可能會發生這樣的一個駕駛上的疏忽"},{"start":6649.761,"end":6678.343,"text":"所以換言之從環境因素機械因素到人為因素人為因素又分是不是年紀或者是不是其他的這個原因它都可能是這一個車禍這個嚴重車禍很重要大家必須要去釐清那也只有釐清的問題我們在法規跟政策上也才可以隨之而走所以雲南會走在最前端的角色也就是為什麼"},{"start":6679.444,"end":6704.233,"text":"國人同胞跟立法院的委員都要求運安會速度要快調查要明確給您在這裡是是那我知道嘛 這個從每一次都老問題啦譬如說包括運安會人事啦 人力不足啦運安會為求慎重啦所以其實就哪怕是一個車禍這個比起空中的 海上的都相對來得容易一點 但"},{"start":6705.365,"end":6721.119,"text":"調查起來還是剛剛主委講完最終確定還是要等到明年了啦所以換言之都超過半年以上那特別是國人對於這個問題包括交通部都引來社會的討論就是到底年紀是不是關鍵"},{"start":6722.588,"end":6737.653,"text":"很多不是前輩啦 長輩都還來打電話給我說他覺得他很健康他覺得他開車沒有問題他的反應比年輕人還要好那其實個案我沒辦法表示什麼"},{"start":6738.653,"end":6756.476,"text":"個案我沒辦法表示,老人家也有身體,年輕人也不表示每一個年輕人都身心反應都很快嘛這個很難用年紀絕對來區分,但年紀他一定程度人老化他一定反應速度平均值上面一定比較相對弱一點,這個大概無庸置疑"},{"start":6757.421,"end":6775.189,"text":"那到底它是什麼那這裡面會涉及到交通部怎麼來定義也讓很多的老人家他覺得他受到歧視他覺得年紀 用年紀來歧視他是不合理的所以這裡面的關鍵我也不知道所以我也無法回答我就在等運安會的一個結果"},{"start":6776.643,"end":6797.769,"text":"所以主委我看了一下像日本在2019年在時代也發生過類似老人家的車禍開車造成的慘劇所以日本在2022年他就強制要新車裝上所謂的黑盒子其實也就是EDR台灣到目前為止我們是大客車跟大貨車有裝EDR"},{"start":6806.786,"end":6819.175,"text":"那運安會會不會建議交通部或者相關部會對於未來的新車就是我們的自小客車要加裝一點我們的調查重點裡面有一些屬於車輛機械跟設備檢測的分組"},{"start":6833.086,"end":6862.472,"text":"那我相信我們調查出來的這個結果會跟交通部會有交集啦會有交集那像這次三峽車或者這個舊的這個TOYOTA那個車齁照道遠講他是舊車他應該是沒有EDR啦就所謂 欸新車現在也沒有 但是他現在有那個特斯拉有EDR之外其他也沒有 他這部車剛好有EDR 喔剛好有所以我們現在是在解讀好 那會不會未來在你們的"},{"start":6863.132,"end":6879.189,"text":"建議當中方便你們的調查你們會不會建議交通部說未來新車啊就以後在台灣賣的車輛都必須把EDR作為一個標準配備運航會有沒有這樣的想法我這邊的資料是台灣在116年"},{"start":6882.012,"end":6896.315,"text":"現在114嘛 116你就規定都要裝新型的這個EDR對 就是已經116年開始的新車都要裝了對就是這樣子嘛那他不管什麼樣的車型都要裝"},{"start":6897.95,"end":6914.816,"text":"大大小小的車子啦載貨載人的都要裝嘛對不對那這個是運安會給的建議嗎不是這是交通部的政策好那運安會如果有這樣的EDR對運安會的運作來講譬如說以路上的車禍而言你們的時間可不可以再縮短"},{"start":6916.292,"end":6938.371,"text":"對我們的調查當然幫助很大幫助很大嗎?對,很大所以主委你也不反對嗎?我贊成你贊成,OK好所以簡單講就是說我提這個其實對我來講我並不了解它的成本就是說裝了之後對消費者他的購買新車他要增加多少成本但是我相信對於事故的調查會有幫助"},{"start":6939.071,"end":6968.177,"text":"那大家會期待過去我們在講說叫你們增加人力啊等等這個問題我覺得都很困難啦講再講講再講其實都效果有限所以我們應該反過來再想其他透過其他的路徑有沒有辦法再讓你們的調查報告可以速度更快可以更精準這個才是第二條除了叫你們增加人力啊增加效率啊之外還有什麼外部輔助的方式"},{"start":6969.327,"end":6989.823,"text":"這個是本席今天質詢的重點我們的調查品質就會更好啦所以我的意思還是期待啦因為政策的前端就是運安會啦特別像這個事件過後到底政策要怎麼調整法規要不要修改其實前端在你們啦"},{"start":6990.416,"end":7011.591,"text":"我覺得這樣也比較科學啦不然老人家會覺得他受到歧視嘛但如果真的怎麼樣的老人家的有些老人家是健康的身心反應都沒有問題但有一些可能不行那這個時候該怎麼去做調整以確保大家的安全這個其實也是很重要的所以不用年紀去歧視老人家但"},{"start":7012.572,"end":7028.409,"text":"國人的在行的路上的安全像這一次這種讓人家這麼難過的事情我們不希望它再發生所以怎麼樣很精準的把我們想要改變的問題把它集中要害的處理而不要盡量不要去誤"},{"start":7029.41,"end":7048.344,"text":"誤傷那個無辜啦 我覺得這個是最重要我們的立場也是這樣子啦 完整的調查真正對症下藥啦對對對 因為要對症下藥啦不然的話 每一個政策出來都讓一堆無辜的人 也不對那你不處理 也不對因為我們不希望看到這種那麼讓人難過的事情再發生啦謝謝委員知道 謝謝謝謝蔡其昌副院長休息十分鐘"},{"start":7067.67,"end":7068.231,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7105.209,"end":7115.597,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7131.971,"end":7143.899,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7158.283,"end":7173.775,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":7186.056,"end":7188.457,"text":"河沙沙"},{"start":7209.053,"end":7214.475,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7236.508,"end":7241.58,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7252.512,"end":7266.207,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7278.605,"end":7278.785,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7294.501,"end":7305.551,"text":"好,好,好,好"},{"start":7322.69,"end":7348.525,"text":"這裏有個大廈,大廈的大廈"},{"start":7354.226,"end":7360.391,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":7370.43,"end":7370.71,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":7387.763,"end":7387.984,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7410.609,"end":7417.331,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7431.518,"end":7431.559,"text":"哦哦"},{"start":7451.665,"end":7467.453,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7470.86,"end":7471.581,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7502.776,"end":7507.557,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7511.418,"end":7511.438,"text":"哈啰"},{"start":7534.835,"end":7535.115,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7569.871,"end":7574.655,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7585.995,"end":7586.676,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":7612.435,"end":7614.816,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":7638.151,"end":7658.404,"text":"好請坐我們繼續開會好現在蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在現在請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":7667.952,"end":7675.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席 邀請我們林主委好 應安會林主委委員長好"},{"start":7681.119,"end":7699.58,"text":"今天大概委員的集中焦點大概是5月19號這個非常重大的一個車禍也造成了全民震驚大家對於這些年輕的生命在這一場的車禍中造成了三人死亡還有眾多人受傷"},{"start":7700.501,"end":7724.364,"text":"那5月21號看到我們的運安會要啟動調查的一個程序變成公路的一個重大事故的一個調查我覺得對於很多民眾包括我們的一個期待因為運安會在專業的調查之下希望能夠找出真正的一個原因分析原因然後最後能夠提出改善的一個建議這是大家希望的"},{"start":7725.08,"end":7741.468,"text":"不過真正運安會一個完整的一個體系整個運作然後整個報告出來可能要等一年但我一直在想因為很多那個制度交通部會說明年可能1月就要去很多一個改變那他要改變的東西到底是不是真正的問題"},{"start":7742.829,"end":7768.116,"text":"變成了我們現在一個問號不過我們可以來討論一下當然不管是人車環境在這整個你們研究的一個過程我們真的是希望都有一些建言都有一些結論能夠讓我們的交通單位來做一個參考不管說在人的方面他的一個駕駛身心的一個部分他怎麼樣去"},{"start":7769.336,"end":7788.424,"text":"能夠未來調整他怎麼樣考照更有換照更有鑑別度然後他的回信到底他怎麼樣是一個比較有意義的然後再來他的身心的一個情況在這樣的的車禍中他到底扮演什麼樣的一個角色因為感覺在連警政單位都還在調查中"},{"start":7789.324,"end":7809.696,"text":"那第二個在整個道路設計包括我們在地方的一個交通的一個單位也是不斷的他們要去研究有沒有辦法在我們交通設計這個不管是標線耗資來做一個改善今天比較花時間去討論一下你這個以車的部分車的部分我們現在不管是車輛的性能"},{"start":7810.376,"end":7827.387,"text":"不管是新車老車它的輔助系統的一個情況我們希望說你們在調查中間能夠有一些具體的一個想法那這一次我們特別有看到我們三峽這個重大交通事故特別是長輩加上老車"},{"start":7832.31,"end":7853.981,"text":"這個老人家加上老車那當然這個東西這種組合是不是如果是新型的車它的功能有沒有可能能夠避掉這樣一個問題啦不過這個東西等於事後諸葛但是我正在想未來有很多那個包括日本很多國家他對於這些老的這個車輛他希望能夠有一些先進的"},{"start":7855.822,"end":7870.452,"text":"設計這個部分我們希望也是未來你們在做結論的面向針對這三個面向都會有一些結論嗎你先說明一下我想我們的調查重點裡面可能會卡姆剛委員所提的啦譬如說我們我們的調查裡面會"},{"start":7873.333,"end":7886.858,"text":"會有一個分支叫做車輛機械跟設備的一些檢測當然有包括學區的學者的安全等等這裡就會涉及到剛剛委員你所提的道路設計的問題等等會被cover到"},{"start":7888.186,"end":7908,"text":"好 當然我們現在比較今天討論就說車輛老舊的相關的問題當我們也知道因為車輛在使用的過程中它的一個雖然年紀差不多但是行駛里程不太一樣甚至保養的一個細菌度不太一樣真的所以同一年齡的譬如10年15年的車它的車況確實會不一樣"},{"start":7910.802,"end":7927.875,"text":"不過我們來看一下目前台灣在這個自用小客車在整個統計來講超過10年以上到15年的這個車輛大概是22%那在15年以上還合格在路上跑的206萬大概有29%"},{"start":7932.72,"end":7954.541,"text":"總體來說10年以上比較舊型的車輛大概占比超過一半我不知道就說在運安會這個部分你們過去對於自用腳刻車不管是ADAS你們也做過一些調查也有一些做一個結論因為畢竟我們在講年紀不是問題但是因為科技不斷的推陳出新"},{"start":7955.382,"end":7977.962,"text":"可以大概推論15年以上的車輛先進的ADAS很多的系統它並沒有融入在裡面所以我們在想說你們在研究的過程中對於這樣的比較老舊的一些車輛你們有沒有朝向可不可能有一些增設輔助系統這個方向來去做推論呢"},{"start":7978.622,"end":7993.934,"text":"我是從報紙上看到交通部有人這樣建議說老車也可以裝這個ADAS但是這個我們是樂觀其成因為我們不是他的主管機關當然你裝ADAS是有幫助的"},{"start":7995.629,"end":8015.719,"text":"對駕駛也是有幫助的好 那老舊的車輛我們真的希望說交通部跟我們運安會有些專業的意見對這個提出來因為你們經過了一年研究我們希望在細節度包括面向是真的有實際的一個很重要的價值而不是說現在很多問題 哇 這個是一個新聞的熱點"},{"start":8016.88,"end":8040.447,"text":"然後因為你一年的時間其實你們面向已經不是解決這個新或者大家的一個民怨的問題你們要一個專業的一個全面向的出來你剛剛特別講現在ADAS新車很多系統他們都變成一個標配那當然對於目前沒有這些ADAS系統的這個部分我們也去了解一下在業界大概一般警示型的"},{"start":8041.027,"end":8064.456,"text":"警示型的可以外加像前車碰撞警示系統車道偏移它有可能可以外加但是主動控制要結合到整個車輛電腦要自動煞車等等的這個部分可能沒有辦法任意加裝在如果原始沒有設計並不容易剛剛有委員也問過現在包括日本對於長輩對於長輩怕暴衝 油門誤觸"},{"start":8068.638,"end":8090.336,"text":"他們有特別來政府補助來加裝這個防爆衝的一個系統那你這個部分你的看法如何我覺得當然對醫術安全有幫助我們當然樂觀其成啦但是這可能是涉及配套的問題還有經費的問題啦我沒有辦法替交通部來打但是我覺得這是一個不同的方向啦"},{"start":8091.451,"end":8103.672,"text":"你的整體的報告我覺得是整個思考這些面向當然現在沒有辦法去做結論但這個方向到底怎麼樣那我想說今天因為時間也不多啦我特別看到"},{"start":8105.202,"end":8132.583,"text":"你們針對這個重大運輸事故的報告在針對112年11月30號在高速公路大亞路段自小客車因為他採用這個ADAS自駕系統撞到了工程的緩撞車這件事情你們也做了一年的一個調查在113年113年去年11月做出的調查報告我也特別看了 特別注意到你中間有寫到這一段"},{"start":8133.743,"end":8153.577,"text":"就是說我國車輛刑事安全審驗未要求通過這個聯合國相關檢測的基準規範就是說那怎麼辦你也說啦所以說我們這個在台灣這個在銷售的不管是緊急煞車輔助系統等等的這樣的一個的一個設備啊需要靠我們車輛啊"},{"start":8159.648,"end":8185.609,"text":"自體公司或者銷售的自己的公司然後去確認這個系統是不是能夠真正正常運作而且你這個寫的是 是你的建議是希望什麼蠻饒舌的 你希望是什麼就是我國沒有 你是希望我國變成有還是是你查到這個現況嘛 是沒有那你這個要具體建議是什麼 你希望是什麼"},{"start":8187.051,"end":8200.279,"text":"我所知道的交通部好像已經完成立法準備要往這方面推動了就是未來就是現在包括甲乙類的納克車跟那個載重的貨車這個N2 N3大概12噸以上的這個3.5噸以上的需要配備這個車輛就主動一定要配備"},{"start":8210.805,"end":8228.11,"text":"那我們對於這個自小課的一個查驗系統現在還是靠我們車界的一個良心跟對自己的信心我們是希望能夠變成國家的一個標準能夠納管這個方向你應該也是支持的嘛"},{"start":8229.19,"end":8245.998,"text":"這個應該是這個方向是對的好那這個部分未來我們跟交通部在討論這個過程也希望讓這個部分能夠完全納管也希望有些專業的部分我們運安會能夠提供專業的意見我們支持我們支持這個好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝魯明哲委員的執行現在請鄭天才委員執行"},{"start":8270.118,"end":8280.752,"text":"主席有請這個我們主委委員長主委好辛苦了"},{"start":8283.99,"end":8307.801,"text":"這個國家運輸安全調查委員會的組織法除了重大運輸事故的這些通報處理調查相關的這個分析另外還有一個就是運輸事故歧視分析運輸安全改善建議還有追蹤這些這方面的好我們看了這個"},{"start":8312.392,"end":8339.221,"text":"去年 去年因為04 03花蓮這個大地震大地震當天這個鐵路都沒有怎麼樣 北迴鐵路北迴鐵路已經完成興建了幾十年了每一次大地震 大颱風風雨都沒有怎麼樣那04 03大地震當下也沒有怎麼樣"},{"start":8340.652,"end":8367.095,"text":"是後來因為很多很多的遺症非常多的遺症造成土石洶洞所以6月21號去年的6月21號下大雨開始從那時候開始這個土石流一下大雨就土石流這那一次真的很算是很幸運6月21號發生的這個事情"},{"start":8371.858,"end":8399.33,"text":"這個總共有乘客火車裡面新自強號火車裡面總共有500多人這個司機鎖骨者旅客受傷人數8人這是很幸運很幸運好我要談的是什麼經過這樣的一個6月21號到現在已經快要一年了快要一年了"},{"start":8402.042,"end":8428.523,"text":"我們看最近的這是今年的今年五月但我中間還有七年六月到五月今年五月中間還有一些土石流現在一下大雨就土石流了這是最近的5月18號還好也是沒有造成人員傷亡這個"},{"start":8431.823,"end":8458.355,"text":"志強號的火車正好也還沒有經過快要到那邊了就有這樣的一個警戒所以沒有造成任何的火車跟人員的傷亡這是很幸運的我要談的是什麼呢從去年六月到現在已經快一年了到下個月就一年了這個"},{"start":8461.94,"end":8489.391,"text":"我們看這個計劃交通部很快的提計劃在交通部改來改去快一年了這個計劃送出來到現在還沒有核定我們來看看這個比較這個只有其實以這一段核能到崇德1.6公里1.6公里而已應該優先去"},{"start":8491.892,"end":8518.218,"text":"改善加強趕快改善看要重新做隧道還是怎樣總是要核定我們看北迴鐵路北迴鐵路1973年10月因為那拉颱風重篡東部的交通兩個月當時的省主席跟行政院的院長蔣經國報告"},{"start":8521.358,"end":8540.348,"text":"馬上就核定兩個月核定新建北迴鐵路列為十大建設列為十大建設兩個月然後開始執行六年就通車總共北迴鐵路79.2公里總共橋大的橋22座隧道16個隧道"},{"start":8551.605,"end":8578.107,"text":"這樣的一個當時的快速的重視最主要是重視我們看因為這個剛才講那一段涉及到鐵路也涉及到公路涉及到公路我們做比較抒發改97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究就開始進行然後兩年一個月"},{"start":8579.212,"end":8607.28,"text":"就核定興建計畫工程的興建計畫兩年一個月這是蘇花改這是比較困難的以蘇花公路的話來講這是比較困難的很多隧道比較比較容易做的蘇花安108年12月20號行政院核定可行性研究到現在五年多了都還沒有核定興建工程計畫"},{"start":8609.349,"end":8631.089,"text":"最起碼你這段河仁道河仁道崇德這一段1.6公里先做也可以啊都停擺我的意思是怎麼樣這個部分當然是跟看起來是跟那個跟我運輸會有什麼關係國家運輸安全調查委員會有什麼關係"},{"start":8637.726,"end":8663.975,"text":"這個我剛剛有提到運輸安全改善的建議當然現在不要去調查調查又浪費時間又會停擺不要成為理由就是要請交通部請交通部趕快像鐵路的部分還在交通部到現在還沒有核定還要報行證驗"},{"start":8666.409,"end":8686.387,"text":"所以這個部分是不是這個國家運輸調查委員會啊能夠根據本席今天的質詢的建議當然我也質詢過交通部但是你要讓他知道這個會造成重大事故的時候就有責任喔所以趕快喔可以嗎"},{"start":8690.015,"end":8707.289,"text":"我們一般每三個月每半年都會有對改善建議的會議要做檢討我們把這個訊息再告訴台鐵交通部交通部最主要是交通部所以這個部分因為真的是很幸運但是不是一直都很幸運"},{"start":8708.55,"end":8721.96,"text":"就是總是要趕快做這1.6公里也沒有多長好不好先不要啟動調查不然又慢了對不對又停擺了好不好是謝謝謝謝委員趕快轉達給交通部謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員現在請葉元之委員執行"},{"start":8745.143,"end":8768.56,"text":"來麻煩請願安會主委謝謝願安會林處委好 委員長主委早我們有看到說針對那個之前三峽的重大交通事故願安會已經準備要立案調查對不對我們期待說願安會可以針對這個公務事件可以真正找出原因並且提出改善的方法"},{"start":8769.361,"end":8783.858,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為這段時間發生非常多的重大交通事故除了剛剛那個三峽之外我們有看到重慶南路也有一個車禍也是有一台車爆衝後來衝撞了四台車有八個人受傷那請問預案會會針對這一起事件立案調查嗎"},{"start":8787.305,"end":8802.762,"text":"這個案子沒有沒有為什麼沒有立案為什麼不立案他不在我們重大運輸事故的範圍裡面是因為那兩個差別是因為是有死傷的人數的差別嗎對他這個是個別的"},{"start":8804.263,"end":8826.517,"text":"特別的案件什麼叫個別的案件那三峽這個案子是因為因為全國矚目社會關注這個是特別為了用報案條款特別立案的所以如果社會矚目重大事件是就會關注那這個重慶南路這個車禍我覺得社會也蠻矚目的因為網路那個影片到處傳是非常驚悚的所以有立案跟沒立案的差別在哪裡"},{"start":8827.515,"end":8840.393,"text":"有一項個便利案就是他他是不是剛報告他是不是重大藝術事務範圍裡面的這個案子跟三峽那個案子的差別在哪?因為我剛報告他社會矚目嘛社會矚目"},{"start":8844.443,"end":8869.978,"text":"我想那個案子社會矚目是因為很不幸有一些小朋友還有一個女騎士她過世嘛應該是這樣所以大家會矚目但是這個重慶南路這個車禍其實你如果有看那個影片他也是非常驚悚他一台車衝過去剛好有幾位行人在過馬路然後是因為那個行人看到車子有閃了有閃開了所以沒有造成有人命的傷亡"},{"start":8870.765,"end":8876.634,"text":"那如果說不是說那些行人他散開的話其實後果也不堪設想啊"},{"start":8877.796,"end":8899.504,"text":"所以我覺得如果我現在就不太懂那個越安會立案的標準到底在哪裡如果以重大矚目的話其實這個事情你可以去看網路討論度也是非常高我覺得那個也是重大矚目的因為越安會的標準應該在定的更嚴謹一點那當然你們是有一個標準我們來看一下這是越安會重大運輸事故範圍的一個討論"},{"start":8901.773,"end":8919.686,"text":"裡面就有提到譬如說有造成死亡三人以上或者是有生命身體財產重大影響重複發生情況特殊或新興運據事故之前就有一個案子在湖北嘛 它是一台車然後車禍就調查 原因是因為它是新興運據"},{"start":8921.187,"end":8932.513,"text":"我問你們想要去了解是不是因為又啟用了無人駕駛或什麼因素才造成事故應該是這樣嘛但像剛剛我舉的重慶南路那個事故那個事件啊其實也是一個蠻特殊的狀況"},{"start":8933.7,"end":8959.42,"text":"所以我覺得預案會也可以去研究一下然後第二個我們是希望說預案會立案調查了解原因提出具體改善之道並且得到問題的解決我覺得這個才是最關鍵的問題可是我們去看了預案會的很多調查報告很多不了了之我這邊就舉一個舉一個案例比如說之前有一個債的嫖白水的"},{"start":8962.03,"end":8975.581,"text":"一個罐潮車他在台二線往東貢遼路那因為他超車超車可能有超速然後後來失控就翻覆這個事件主委已經知道嘛因為這個有立案調查你知道嘛"},{"start":8976.542,"end":8993.516,"text":"那你可以看一下這邊寫的你們的建議你們的最後異動時間我們紅色圈起來是113年11月21號那個是去年11月21號等於是這個案子已經調查完畢了因為他是112年10月發生的所以一年後你們調查完畢了113年11月調完畢那現在的狀態"},{"start":8997.559,"end":9023.359,"text":"有一個很具體的改善內容喔所要制定在不同的設計速率下之最短可超車行駛距離座位連續禁止超車路段之最短間隔長度之依據等等等等等等然後11月21號到今天已經過半年了建議狀態叫做等候回覆或處理中換言之你調查了也發文給交通部了"},{"start":9024.212,"end":9052.923,"text":"但是呢這半年全部都在等交通部的回覆那問題解決了嗎沒有解決因為他還沒回覆所以沒有解決那等到他回覆如果你們運安會不滿意來來回回來來回回都不知道要搞好幾年了所以既然已經我剛剛我們這樣質詢下來第一個其實運安會要立案調查是一件很困難的事情啊連重慶南路那樣的一個社會矚目關注事件都沒有立案調查"},{"start":9054.068,"end":9078.369,"text":"結果立案調查的案件經過了一年多的調查找到了問題提出了建議發問給交通部又等了半年沒有回覆也不知道什麼時候可以改善啊這個速度我相信國人不會接受因為任何的重大交通事故它都有可能會重複發生在其他的路段造成其他的重大事故我說的大家要超前部署防範於未來可是這樣的進程"},{"start":9079.87,"end":9095.906,"text":"我覺得大家不能接受所以院會你們可以提出什麼改善的方式嗎他這個發布之後被就是受建議當然他有90天的回復期90天那你現在已經半年沒回來半年如果有紓解沒錯的話應該是180天嘛90天回復期嘛"},{"start":9100.1,"end":9127.596,"text":"那回復期持完之後我們要看看他的改善建議是不是可行然後我們就會報行政院所以我聽不懂你現在你請他了嘛對不對你是11月21號上傳這個報告嘛那理論上你應該是11月21號你就發文給他請他回復嘛是不是然後他90天回復期那他應該在2月21號就要回了啊剛剛執行長告訴我這個案子他90天回復期完之後被退回因為不可行"},{"start":9128.666,"end":9150.217,"text":"不可行就退回所以針對交通重大事故運安會跟交通部你們的互動方式是文來文往就對了不是不是不是就是他發文給你你又退給他他再發文給你你又退給他大家就是只上作業那這個運安調查都沒有積極性你的機制就是文來文往喔我請組長說明一下他比較瘦"},{"start":9153.981,"end":9171.059,"text":"那這個本案的話那主要有三個感言建議那目前主要是在等待交通部的這一項那交通部這一項應該是在我們90天的回覆期他應該是2月19號到期那交通部他他沒有到期所以我們有立即就發出急催函"},{"start":9171.619,"end":9196.58,"text":"交通部是3月24號回覆那我們在觀問過程中覺得他的這個內容不可行所以就請他再重提那目前我們有持續的一個激催我們大概激催了三次那我們目前是依花針對本案那我們會在未來的兩個禮拜找交通部針對這個這一個感恩建議為何交通部一直沒辦法提出具體的可行的計畫來跟我們做研討所以嘛我現在只是舉一個個案而已嘛"},{"start":9197.02,"end":9211.503,"text":"你現在你們跟交通部的關係就是你找到的問題你請他改善他不理你嘛你還要雞吹那你不就突顯交通部沒有再把交通安全當一回事嗎如果一個重大交通事件社會矚目的預案會都發現問題了交通部愛理不理"},{"start":9212.766,"end":9236.616,"text":"然後你現在才講說因為擠出來他都不理你你們政府有在關心交通安全嗎你們都沒有一些什麼強制的機制譬如說交通部陪你還有上級機關有一個行政院現在大家那麼重視道安有沒有一個行政院的一個層級的可以要求交通部趕快處理真的聽了都覺得很離譜耶那現在因為這個朝"},{"start":9240.601,"end":9261.99,"text":"萬巢車翻覆那當時也是社會矚目啊經過一兩年大家沒關注了那就文來文往了那現在三峽這個重大事件大家關注了啊你們說要立案調查會不會一年後一樣找到問題傳給交通部交通部三個月回你你覺得不滿又推給他然後結果他又再不回你你又雞吹然後又沒完沒了這樣就把行人安全當當開玩笑嘛"},{"start":9263.03,"end":9288.031,"text":"你們都沒有那個機制嗎?可以交通部趕快改善嗎?跟委員報告其實我們提供的給交通部的改善建議其實蠻多那其實基本上不是都不理我們只是說這一個項目有的理有的不理就對了這一個項目他在處理上面他這個是一個結構性的問題啦今天不跟個案講太多這是一個結構性的問題如果運安會的結論交通部都可以愛理不理的還要激催激催都沒用"},{"start":9289.076,"end":9306.168,"text":"那只是凸顯說你們交通單位沒有很重視這個事情希望說主委你可以好好跟交通部溝通如果你溝通不了的話你應該跟上面你們的在上一層的機關講嘛要解決這個協調的問題啦好不好沒有 這個是個案啦好啦 謝謝謝謝啦 謝謝委員會 謝謝謝謝葉延之委員現在請邱若驊委員執行"},{"start":9321.428,"end":9343.781,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席 主席有請 院會 林信德 林主委好 林主委委員早主委早 主委 先請問您是否還記得四年前 發生在四年前震驚全國的408太魯閣出軌事件意思說408太魯閣太魯閣您記得嗎"},{"start":9347.1,"end":9354.605,"text":"那這場事故他造成49人罹難是泰鐵近年最嚴重的意外嗎所以那根據當時的調查泰魯閣出軌的原因是為什麼就是臨軌工程的問題嗎"},{"start":9362.632,"end":9388.332,"text":"鐵軌工程的問題那它是有違規的情形嗎它是違規施工沒錯吧那就是因為違規施工它導致工程車滑落自軌道造成列車出軌那主委當時應安會有對台鐵提出什麼樣的建議改善建議我們有提出請台鐵台鐵後來有頒布一個叫做鄰軌工程安全防護措施的要點那也把它納入"},{"start":9389.153,"end":9410.531,"text":"林委工程的採購企業的範本裡面他有在做那除了還有其他的嗎還有其他的機制跟程序嗎其他有啦其他像這個應該將這個施工廠商把他列為內部的安全管理的重要的一環都把他納入不能把他把他好像他是話外之名不可以都拉進來那台鐵有在做"},{"start":9411.252,"end":9423.167,"text":"那最近我是還有一些案子又跑出來有一些案子跑出來那本席 本席這老師當初院會有建議要加強靈鬼的施工管理還有通報機制吧然後還有監督的程序那我們看到這張投影片就是"},{"start":9424.679,"end":9444.638,"text":"社團上面的一個貼文他說在七堵在內有外包廠商他沒有申請他擅自進入到營運的路線旁邊進行施工那他也沒有依照程序來報備七堵幾乎斷那這樣的施工行為是不是跟當年太魯閣事件中的靈鬼施工管理失當有相似之處"},{"start":9445.479,"end":9468.857,"text":"有相似之處有相似之處那我相信當時運安會也有提出就是在事件蔡五格事件之後也有建議那有沒有對台鐵就是提出相關的建議就是改善建議我們定期在行政會會對台鐵的安全改善有一個有一個提報會議那運安會也會派人參加這個案子我們會提報"},{"start":9469.622,"end":9497.928,"text":"那我們看到這個今天這個他這個行為是不是有違反靈鬼施工的管理確實是違反規定然後台鐵我們跟台鐵的聯絡結果表示他們一規定要拆滑是那主委那如果台鐵沒有主動通報的話那他這個慾安會你們也沒辦法及時掌握這樣的情況那表示那現在的他的監督機制是有漏洞的那想請教主委那慾安會他有沒有通報的平台"},{"start":9500.663,"end":9515.834,"text":"通報平台是有啦但是我覺得我們會再跟台鐵講說你這個既然說你改善已經完成為什麼又發現那請他加強落實啊那我們在行政院的會議裡面改革會我們也會再提報那今天是就是"},{"start":9517.395,"end":9544.856,"text":"今天是因為沒有發生事故那如果那針對像這樣沒有通報的施工如果通常運安會會調查是因為有事故的發生嘛那這樣子的話那我相信台鐵因為我們也看到這張虛情事件的通報單那他不一定會呈報到運安會那運安會得知這樣的情形你們要怎麼來做處置這個案子有通報沒有通報這個案子沒有通報"},{"start":9546.617,"end":9571.009,"text":"來 你要說明一下好 請說明 謝謝報告委員 因為這個案子呢就是因為台鐵的原來在太魯閣的這個事故裡面我們提出的這個改善建議那所以台鐵訂定了這個規定那它有一個一定的一個發現的機制所以在這個案件裡面台鐵的人員是立刻發現施工廠商違規進入這個施工場地的這個部分那所以他立刻發現就立刻"},{"start":9571.989,"end":9574.074,"text":"去做處理了那當時應安會有沒有建議台鐵說針對這樣的廠商台鐵應該要來做什麼樣的處置"},{"start":9582.761,"end":9602.554,"text":"因為運安會所提的那個改善建議裡面提的是在這個案子裡面我們發現的一些風險因素所以改善建議裡面是一個方向所以在那個剛剛所提到的委員所提到這個部分就是我們在90天之後台鐵提出一個分項執行計畫所以剛剛主委有報告說這個靈鬼施工"},{"start":9603.294,"end":9630.541,"text":"的一個安全防護的實施要點措施要點就是他的一個實施的一個方式他的分享執行計劃那我們現在是希望說在這一次透過這一次的一個事件裡面呢我們也希望說台鐵能夠加強去落實這一方面現在是建議就是應安會要督促台鐵就是全面的來盤點就是每個車站他們外包廠商施工的情況啦那包括也要強化他們進出設施的審核還有監工"},{"start":9631.001,"end":9656.367,"text":"沒有錯啦我們會跟台鐵有一個連續機制我們會跟他講我們一定會提一定會提在行政院應該會在強力的督促台鐵我們會強力強力要求OK好那主委我們接下來看到非安我們可以看到日前國際有發生多起的非安事故那造成很多傷亡主委請問像國外發生這樣的非安事故是不是可以提供我們更多非安的啟發讓我國的非安更加的安全更加的完善呢呃"},{"start":9663.03,"end":9686.967,"text":"我想這些資料我們航空調查組對國外的一些案例事實上我們都有收集那麼收集的一些原因比如說NTSB像韓國像日本其他國家的我們都有檔案database都有在建立建立之後我們在每一個定期的資源包括系統裡面也會把這些"},{"start":9687.748,"end":9711.894,"text":"比較典型的這種事故我們會會怎麼講會發佈定期發刊那個刊錄裡面給各個航空公司參考這本是在今天的解凍報告中有看到津津運輸事故的調查能量計畫那國際民航組織他聯合國專責管理還有發展世界各國民航事務的總部他設在加拿大的蒙特羅那你三年舉辦一次大會"},{"start":9713.174,"end":9720.651,"text":"五國音樂兩岸的因素還有政治因素嘛導致沒有辦法參加ICAO那請問主委運安會跟ICAO的互動情況目前是"},{"start":9722.475,"end":9745.348,"text":"我們應安會有參加三個國際組織一個是ITSA就是所謂運輸安全所長年度的聯會每一年開一次我們也參加SRC就是亞洲調查員的飛航安全協會還有一個是叫做IASS是國際飛航安全的年度會議我們在這三個平台裡面都會拿到最新資料都會拿到最新資料"},{"start":9746.488,"end":9767.003,"text":"是 因為我們沒有辦法加入ICL的關係嘛那我們在缺乏這個正式管道下一頁希望主委可以強化就是我國在國際間它非政府的非安機構的技術交流讓我國的非安更加安全是 是 我們都是這個方向是都一樣的再請主委繼續努力好 感謝 感謝委員知道 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝邱樂華委員的執行現在請何新淳委員執行"},{"start":9784.335,"end":9811.646,"text":"好 謝謝林昭偉 我們請林主任委員好 應運會的林主委黃委員早早好 主委其實我想今天早上很多委員都跟本席的今天的質詢的一個重點差不多一樣重點是在於我們都期待等一下封面 謝謝我們都期待運安會不只是一個事故後調查的獨立單位"},{"start":9812.226,"end":9835.201,"text":"在運安會的執掌裡面更應該強化有關全台灣的交通運輸的一個安全或者是其他專業上的專案延期建議這個我記得在運安會當時候成立以及成立週年的時候我也在這個地方在交通委員會曾經就美國"},{"start":9836.591,"end":9861.588,"text":"國家運輸安全委員會他們的職長他們的做法他們的有為到底是怎麼樣來提醒我們運安會也應該要做什麼我不知道主委還記得嗎是我知道你知道嘛對不對我不希望再過今年明年我同樣還要用這樣子的一個"},{"start":9863.743,"end":9879.794,"text":"標題啊為什麼不是因為大家對運安會的期待啊你常常會跟我說不是啊你們通過的這個法跟我們成立的宗旨成立的這個目的跟成立現在的組織架構就是不一樣這個我覺得都是推脫改第一頁今天很多"},{"start":9880.394,"end":9899.24,"text":"委員都在談這個三峽重大車禍造成嚴重的死傷網路謠言是其實在於我們到目前為止還不知道真正的發生事故的原因還有專業上到底誰可以給我們一個真相那當然我們也非常"},{"start":9900.633,"end":9922.908,"text":"肯定看到立案會願意主動來立案調查因為你們的調查事故的專業那會讓國人信服在信服中間還必須要是你們的調查報告是夠專業是夠取信於民而且是能夠提出真正的一個建議如何的來改善"},{"start":9923.869,"end":9940.323,"text":"接著我們以目前看到國人都期待我們交通安全最重要人身安全最重要所以都期待運安會在事後調查之外阻掉延期運輸安全就我剛才一開始講的"},{"start":9941.792,"end":9967.934,"text":"主委這個現在呢剛剛我講的新北的三峽你立案要調查檢調單位現在也在調查就是司法體系也在調查我先問一個問題主委你曾經提過你跟司法單位有保持聯繫那提供專業的協助那你所謂的保持聯繫提供專業的協助是什麼部分"},{"start":9968.652,"end":9979.506,"text":"最主要是那個行車電腦EDR那個就是很專業必須用特殊的儀器把它解出來所以你提供特殊的儀器來提供檢調單位來做解析"},{"start":9980.249,"end":10005.476,"text":"對 我們現在知道有跟他互通有誤 還在解還在解因為他那個車子撞了之後有一些就是等於是說故障作用那你解要多久的時間 以你的專業為什麼要問這個問題因為這牽涉到調查的進度也提供給檢調希望能夠有一個初步的調查結果才能夠"},{"start":10006.917,"end":10021.536,"text":"歸咎責任的歸屬嗎我們這個三峽這個案子我們下個月就會有一個初步報告然後10月份會有一個事實資料報告然後明年1月大概草案就會出來明年5月份最終報告不是我的意思是說剛剛來來來你這是兩碼之事喔"},{"start":10024.7,"end":10052.14,"text":"第一件事我剛剛的問題是你說有跟現在的司法檢調單位保持橫向聯繫你說你提供專業的去解析他的ERD那這個專業的這個東西什麼時候你可以解析完畢我剛剛還沒報告完下個月的初步報告裡面就會有EDR的資料會解出來所以你的意思是說檢調單位要等到下個月你的初步的調查報告出來"},{"start":10053.171,"end":10058.237,"text":"所以你的一定要的參數要解析出來就是下個月的這個時候會跟檢調的調查跟你們的調查報告是同步"},{"start":10073.458,"end":10094.213,"text":"你剛剛是這樣子講嘛我為什麼這樣問因為這牽涉到是我們多久可以等得到初步的調查報告或是初步的事故發生的原因初步報告是下個月會出來對啊那因為你剛剛講你跟檢調單位都在保持聯繫啊是不是"},{"start":10095.214,"end":10111.037,"text":"我的意思是這個牽涉到我們多久需要等多久才能夠知道事故下一頁所以我在講除了事後的調查之外主要的一個運輸安全問題也可以主動研析就像剛剛很多委員提到的"},{"start":10111.497,"end":10133.359,"text":"全台灣各大重要的交通事故在公路系統方面我們有沒有收集數據有沒有來進行研析譬如說新北三峽是一個重大的交通事故那上個月台中的向上路也發生了重大的交通事故而這一個算不算在你的未來"},{"start":10134.46,"end":10143.016,"text":"因為你之前沒有立案那未來在你的公路系統的交通運輸的安全的延期裡面可不可以"},{"start":10144.332,"end":10170.699,"text":"全台灣各大公路系統的交通重大事故我們能夠來做一個盤點研析來告訴我們我們有可以有什麼樣的改善譬如說台中的向上路這一段經常發生車禍又是為什麼可以在你的報告裡面來呈現有沒有這個可能性可以做嗎 主委我跟委員報告每一年交通部大安會跟運營所"},{"start":10171.519,"end":10198.551,"text":"他們都會他們有個進度起來的專案小組會對全國各熱點幾個很容易發生重大因素可是我們現在看不到你說在大外匯報裡面會有這個東西可是我們現在看不到運安會對這些已經經常發生事故的一個交通熱點到底有什麼樣的建議跟作為啊所以這個案子我們會我們準備要來召集一個會議召集交通部相關器官我現在問你才說我現在來召集一個會議喔"},{"start":10199.619,"end":10223.055,"text":"不是我們要把這個案子拿出來到底這個路段為什麼會常常發生錯誤主委我現在的重點是在於不是因為我問了你才要說我要來召開一個會議來研究解析我現在是說應該運安會的公然在你的職長在法規的要求之下本來就對於交通運輸安全的一個專案研究解析跟提供改善意見嘛"},{"start":10224.356,"end":10249.826,"text":"那全台灣有那麼多的一個交通的重大事故那你剛剛也提到 道安匯報都會提供全國各縣市的一個交通意外事故的熱點那 立安會的高度 應該在全台灣的公路系統為什麼會有這些的重大的一個交通事故的熱點你明明可以掌握 那這些數據掌握了之後你有沒有進一步的去研究為什麼"},{"start":10251.306,"end":10264.134,"text":"如果有進一步的去研究為什麼找出原因可以來提供給各個該全責單位可以去進行改善的因為這個現在已經在做了啊現在在做為什麼看不到啊因為"},{"start":10266.895,"end":10272.78,"text":"因為交通部單位我看不到你們在做什麼啊就是國人因為看不到你們在做什麼所以都對你們這個單位獨立機構的存在覺得無感啊不是因為現在交通部單位跟運營所他們已經在做每一年都在做每一年都在做但是呢我建議的是"},{"start":10287.631,"end":10300.935,"text":"除了運營所我們也看不到那如果我們的定安會也覺得這不是你的業務範圍不要在你的公路系統的一個交通運輸安全的一個研析立案來專案研究來盤點全台灣"},{"start":10304.795,"end":10321.745,"text":"主委你會繼續的無感存在啊我們可以把它做一個立案為什麼要這麼說在下一頁我在上一次4月17號有質詢過一個民生大家關注的議題行動電源起火國際案例頻傳影響非安"},{"start":10324.352,"end":10337.939,"text":"我以這個為例給你質詢找出問題希望你能夠延期你給我回了一個書面資料說我成立研究小組然後我會行文給要資料然後呢就這樣就沒了就沒了"},{"start":10341.414,"end":10355.01,"text":"就沒了你知道行動電源起火影響飛安甚至在高鐵上行動電源起火引起大家的恐慌這件事對人民的交通安全是多重要你有把人民的擔心放在心上嗎"},{"start":10363.39,"end":10382.114,"text":"沒有啊 你就給我一頁A4的報告而已啊 然後也沒寫進度啊我希望我可以看到進度行動電源為什麼起火 在飛機上起火又為什麼 那該怎麼辦在鐵道上面行動電源起火又該怎麼辦這個人民期待的是運安會可以給一個"},{"start":10390.526,"end":10395.362,"text":"解析專案研究找出問題給改善建議"},{"start":10397.348,"end":10424.801,"text":"讓人民安心啊這是我們認為你該更積極的部分嘛我再舉最後一個例子30秒你們自己運安會上面的網站上面就有所謂的這個志願調查系統裡面有國外的一個資訊我馬上上網去連結連結到是英國的運安的一個志願調查系統那他們呢這個"},{"start":10427.355,"end":10433.11,"text":"就在我的CIRAS這是從你們網站上去連結的喔你們有提供這個連結喔"},{"start":10435.339,"end":10461.054,"text":"那你們認為這個連結是我們這個運安會裡面也有一個運輸安全志願報告系統剛剛很多委員都提到那你們也給我一個國際連結英國也有這樣子的系統可是你看看人家英國怎麼做英國光是我只是出錢用數據因為我沒時間啦光是一個今年四月份就提出九件的結案報告"},{"start":10462.657,"end":10467.703,"text":"你知道在你們的運安會的運安志願報告系統裡面幾件嗎沒半件啦你們的報告內容還停到你們的公開資訊還在2024的8月2號啦還在去年的8月啦"},{"start":10485.1,"end":10498.325,"text":"人家英國你們自己連結的國際的一個運安的自願報告系統人家英國已經到2025的4月那光是4月就有9件還是結案的報告那我們自己運安會自己的運輸安全自願報告系統你一點進去還在去年的8月而且去年的8月就只有一件"},{"start":10516.75,"end":10535.996,"text":"我請那個組長來...不用啦我沒有時間啦這是我剛剛在我來質詢之前才上網去點進去的你們這樣子的效率你們這樣子的一個無感存在你想為什麼那麼多委員對你們那麼有意見提出那麼多的質疑"},{"start":10537.113,"end":10562.557,"text":"我跟你講喔 這個志願報告系統它不是多專業喔 對不起不能這樣講這個志願報告系統是任何只要跟運輸安全的從業人員跟乘客都可以提出進入這個志願報告系統所以從英國的那個CIS裡面我們看到不管是駕駛或者是他們的鐵道的管理員或者是他們的相關的從業人員都可以提出問題"},{"start":10566.638,"end":10574.039,"text":"那這個資源報告系統裡面他們就要回復回復就要立案立案就要有結案"},{"start":10577.827,"end":10600.424,"text":"那同樣的你們也是仿效國外英國的這個系統你們弄了一個資源報告系統那你們又是如何在處理有沒有效率有沒有結案有沒有給解答有沒有找出原因有沒有找解方這個其實是我們期待令安徽要跟國人報告要交代的啦好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":10603.76,"end":10619.838,"text":"主委可能特別要去注意一下 何新成委員提出這個問題專程到辦公室去說明一下好不好好 謝謝何新成委員游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在現在"},{"start":10623.114,"end":10633.09,"text":"好那個登記登記執行的委員經已發言完畢做以下的決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":10634.67,"end":10659.179,"text":"二 廖先祥委員 黃建豪委員 游浩委員 所提書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報委員對於執行中要求提供相關書面資料以及未及答覆部分請國家運輸安全調查委員會 盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":10662.196,"end":10667.06,"text":"好 接下來我們處理討論事項預算解凍案請議事人員宣讀討論事項處理國家運輸安全調查委員會函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該會新增決議80業務費預算凍結30%書面報告案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":10686.206,"end":10712.192,"text":"好本案先讀完畢請問我們邱若驊委員何新淳委員有沒有什麼意見好沒有什麼意見做以下的結議討論事項同意動之提報宴會各位委員對於這些結議有沒有意見好沒有意見我們要通過以上的結議本次會議結束"},{"start":10714.333,"end":10719.329,"text":"特別謝謝祝大家明天端午快樂謝謝大家 散會"},{"start":10781.159,"end":10781.261,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}