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葉委員部長好我想請教一下今天我們在討論說那個軍購預算它到底應該放在特別預算還是一般預算那我想另外先問一個問題因為我們現在去採購這些裝備那目前國防部編列的預算除了裝備本身之外大概應該也會編前一兩年的一些維修費用會嗎會嗎"},{"start":31.718,"end":47.698,"text":"他就這個新式的裝備有關相關所需要的這些新式裝備的一些那些接裝的初次的備份料件還有這個接裝的訓練等等那大概編幾年"},{"start":52.581,"end":77.953,"text":"這個依序項目會有點不同像那個海馬仕的部分他因為保固期是三年所以我們規劃的部分他的初次備份料件也是三年然後接裝訓練也是三年標槍跟托式的部分因為已經有買過了所以他不需要再做前置的接裝訓練只要做著內拱總能擴訓所以這個部分他的備份料件的部分跟訓練的部分我們是以"},{"start":78.553,"end":102.56,"text":"第一年來編列 後續就是以維持費來支應好 那譬如說以戰車來講咧 編幾年戰車的部分是一年半一年半 好 但是我就講戰車啦戰車我們應該不是只用一年半嘛 對吧我們預計要用多少年戰車的部分 戰甲 砲車它都有一個概略的標準期程是大概在十年的時候 它會進行檢討做"},{"start":105.294,"end":131.394,"text":"其實我的問題很簡單因為我們現在在省預算的時候其實我們只看得到比如說以戰車來說就是第一年的作業費然後維修費用但是假設他用十年甚至用到二十年那後續十幾年他到底需要花到多少錢其實是看不出來的所以我們希望說網部可不可以幫評估一下我們買這些裝備到底後續來講的話可能還需要花到多少錢來做"},{"start":132.515,"end":149.865,"text":"不管是維修也好或者是保存也好等等因為我們現在裝備不是買來買來就好嘛後續還有很多維修費用啊比如我們買愛國者的飛彈愛國者飛彈它有時候比如說彈頭啊什麼問題啊你還要送回美國去處理啊再送回來其實都是很大一筆費用啊"},{"start":150.973,"end":171.532,"text":"那其實我們也看到說最近我們國軍的裝備的維修費用其實是越來越高像今年光是空軍的維修保險費用我看媒體報導就是已經編了625億比去年的437億都升高那這個當然有很多原因啦一方面可能是因為比如說兩岸關係"},{"start":173.234,"end":185.547,"text":"緊張啊 中共可能常常這個飛機啊老台啊 我們要半飛啊使用頻率比較高啊甚至於我們裝備增加都有可能所以這個部分有關於後續的費用可不可以大概估一個"},{"start":187.059,"end":208.229,"text":"估月數字出來讓大家參考一下好不好作業維持費的這個部分你要考量到就是說譬如說以海馬仕為例的話我們新購進來我們會淘汰那個舊的裝備那舊的裝備如果你那個越舊是它的維持費相對來講是更高這個是海馬仕嘛有的是我們新購的嘛就是說你不能夠說你們現在會說"},{"start":210.29,"end":220.418,"text":"那我新裝備進來我後面要有維修那我同樣我新裝備進來我舊裝備淘汰那也要算入舊裝備淘汰之後所節省下來的作業為之位現在就針對新裝備而已那你舊的我現在沒有說等一下等一下部長你不要預設立場你現在覺得我來找你麻煩所以你才會這樣子講我現在只是說給個數字大家參考我沒有說新的裝備買進來之後"},{"start":236.17,"end":263.714,"text":"整體維修費一定會增加多少 我並沒有這樣講我只是說你概括一下讓大家參考啊這個去扯到說舊的淘汰幹嘛包委 這個部分可能要專門跟您做報告因為我們在整規書的細分段裡面就已經針對整厚的部分有了一個完整的規劃但是每一個它都必須經過精密計算所以也不見得每個都一樣那如果我也有興趣的話我們可以針對個案的部分去跟您說明說我們細分段是怎麼樣去推估這些整厚的"},{"start":264.025,"end":275.892,"text":"可以啊可以啊好好謝謝然後再來喔再請教一下剛剛我有看到王威文也有問啦就是17號的時候共軍有一個針尖的無人機到我們闖到我們東沙島的領空嘛"},{"start":277.09,"end":302.392,"text":"2024年那個邱國正部長他有講說我們現在已經更改了我們第一級的作業方式以前是說有如果敵軍有開炮或開槍的時候我們才會第一級但是現在是只要共軍的實體航空器越界我們就會第一級我想問一下像以東沙島那個艱增無人機闖到我們領空這個狀況它符不符合第一級的要件"},{"start":305.118,"end":320.383,"text":"呃我想剛剛已經跟王委員已經呃討論過了這件事情就是說這個要看因為我們本來的這些突發狀況組織規定呃本來就有相關的對這些有律定那就要看他這個如果按照"},{"start":321.263,"end":334.061,"text":"按照當時威脅的程度如果我們是遭受到武裝攻擊的話我們當然可以行使我們自我防衛的固有權利所以各級部隊可以依照突發狀況所賦予的這些授權舉證跟交戰規則來有效應處這些緊急的突發狀況"},{"start":337.897,"end":360.573,"text":"所以沒有 你沒有回答我的問題以比如說邱國正部長所講的只要共軍實體航空器越界我們就可以低級那以這一次的狀況1月17號發生的狀況它沒有符合低級的條件所以我已經講過了我們依照這個威脅的程度我們合比例的所以他並不是說航空器越界直接就低級他要看它的威脅程度"},{"start":361.213,"end":388.456,"text":"我們依視他的威脅程度來行使自衛權的反對我知道那以這個個案來講他的威脅強不強我想就這個部分來看的話在當時的情況之下他不構成還不構成一個武裝攻擊的一個態勢那以這個狀況他要什麼情況下才會你才會第一級是說因為你們有叫他離開嘛然後後來他停留一段時間就離開那是說他一直不離開所以就會第一級還是怎麼樣"},{"start":389.389,"end":411.892,"text":"對 所以我們要試他的威脅程度啊這講得太籠統了因為他本身你們都沒有平常在軍中都沒有講得很清楚嗎就是說以這個個案來講現在因為他來了 請他離開 離開了所以不構成威脅但是什麼什麼情況之下其實我們是可以第一級然後我們第一級我們是用什麼方式對不對 你們都沒有針對這個個案做個討論"},{"start":413.733,"end":435.573,"text":"我們有但是我想我們也不適宜在這裡說明這個都不適宜這個都不適宜在這邊講喔那誰知道你是有還是沒有對啊怎麼每一個東西都以這種方式來迴避搞不好你根本沒有啊但是你講不出來你就說不適合在這邊講我不知道說這個有什麼不能講欸因為我剛剛引述的是公開資料是2024年邱國正部長在立法院的答詢啊"},{"start":436.587,"end":463.073,"text":"自己講的說共軍的航空器只要實體越界我們就可以第一級然後現在你又說我們要試情況我說那什麼情況你就說不方便講我們一直講就是說試威脅的程度行使這個威脅程度這就很籠統那我請教一下你們後來國防部有對外講說那一天之所以後來也沒有發射沒有把他打下來是因為他是在航空射程外"},{"start":464.127,"end":487.647,"text":"有這樣回答嗎我想新聞稿上面有這麼寫有這樣寫嗎所以他到底是因為不構成威脅沒有去打他還是因為他是在防空射程外沒有去打他我們當然要當時的判斷委員全程監控那麼依照他的這個威脅的程度不要再繞圈圈我說因為你們對外發布有講說他是在防空射程外嘛讓大家以為說是因為在防空射程外打不到"},{"start":488.188,"end":517.828,"text":"所以沒去打但是部長你現在講法又有點改口了說是因為他不構成威脅所以沒有去打他所以實際上他是因為在防空射程外的關係還是因為他不構成威脅我這邊可以跟委員做一個說明就是說他這個一個高高空的一個狀態所以我們認為沒有構成這個武裝攻擊的一個程度所以我們沒有行使這一個所謂的把它視為武裝攻擊而進行所謂的自衛權的反擊"},{"start":518.928,"end":539.759,"text":"應該是這樣講 那麼所以所以我們還是講我們依照他的威脅的程度 我們合比所以你的意思是說 因為他在很高空啦在防空射程外 所以不構成威脅所以我們沒去打他 是這個意思嗎相關 我想這些細節我們"},{"start":542.762,"end":568.183,"text":"委員好 我是發言人沈立芳跟您做一個報告我們在新聞稿裡面所談到的在防空射程武器之外這件事情是陳述一個事實就是說它當時的高度在我們的武器射程之外好 那所以跟要不要打它是無關並不是因為它太高打不到並不是因為打不到所以沒打就對了好 那如果今天它在我們的防空射程外然後你們又評估說它有構成威脅的話你會怎麼處理"},{"start":570.871,"end":582.48,"text":"報告委員 實際上這個在我們的突破狀況處置規定裡頭都有詳細的律定我們會看它威脅的程度做評估可是相關的戰術細節您等於在這邊我們不能公開的掀開我們這什麼戰術細節你可以針對可以講的"},{"start":587.924,"end":611.983,"text":"今天大家為什麼來問這個事情因為大家會覺得說怎麼連一個針尖無人機過來好像都無法處理嘛然後國軍每次都是的回應方式就是說我們會處理我們有辦法但我不能講那誰知道你是有沒有辦法你可以針對你可以講的部分來回答可是不能夠回答方式每次都說我們有辦法但我不能講"},{"start":612.683,"end":626.372,"text":"這一部分牽扯到我們國軍的作戰安全我們當然不能公開你可以針對可以講的部分因為我們現在在這邊監督嘛就是說你到底有沒有辦法因為我現在針對的是你發布的新聞稿不合理的地方在跟你討論嘛所以剛剛那一位"},{"start":628.493,"end":643.727,"text":"那個官員也有講嘛就是那兩者沒有必然關係嘛但我們會想要知道說既然國軍有一個第一級的原則那到底什麼情況之下是可以打不能打你不能說每一次只要問到好像你比較難回答問題就說我們做到但是呢不告訴你"},{"start":644.107,"end":662.904,"text":"第一集的原則當然是要堅守的可是有關這些戰術還有武器使用我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我們現在只要問說到底是有沒有辦法保衛大家沒有要問到我沒有要問到說叫你把機密講出來不要動不動這樣子扣人家帽子好像我們在窺探什麼機密一樣我沒有要問機密嘛"},{"start":667.088,"end":677.37,"text":"沒有要問機密但是你要告訴大家到底一個原則在哪裡嘛你現在原則就是很籠統啊你就是說原則剛才部長已經做了說明了那個原則就太籠統了啊部長可不可以針對可以講的部分至少講一個讓國人安心的第一點"},{"start":689.813,"end":711.115,"text":"如果遭受到外來的武裝攻擊依照聯合國憲章51條規定我們就可以採取武力進行自我防衛的固有權利這第一個第二個我們要進行這個自衛的時候呢自衛反擊的時候我們要合比例的來行使這是第二個第三個各級部隊可以依照突發狀況指示規定賦予的"},{"start":711.696,"end":720.864,"text":"授權舉證跟交戰規則有效的來應處這些緊急突發的事件那至於其他的部分呢我想我們並不適合在這邊做公開的說明好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}