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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請財政部以及稅務署部長跟署長還有宋署長委員好部長那因為台灣現在已經都步入了這個高齡化的一個社會那基本上所以有很多老人家他在做他老年生活的一些財產規劃的時候"},{"start":33.243,"end":55.583,"text":"他們會去思考一件就是用所謂的安養信託那這安養信託我們看到從一百零九年的時候大概是有三萬多人到了一百一十三年已經增加到了十九萬五千人那信託的財產也從四百三十五億已經增加到了一千五百七十九億那所謂安養信託又有所謂兩種一個是以防養老一個是留防養老也就是一個是"},{"start":59.927,"end":86.912,"text":"用先去做银行的抵押贷款贷款出来把它信托那或者是直接房子信托给第三方单位然后让第三方单位来执行后然后再把这个执行的收益给受益者也就是这一个长辈让他做他生活上的一些费用那基本上这个两个方向很好但是我们最近也注意到了一些新闻就是说基本上"},{"start":88.172,"end":113.519,"text":"我们看到说如果是自然人自然人我如果是出租不动产的话我就没有必要再缴5%的营业税因为我自然人我出租不动产我就是所得税所以它是所得税的概念但是在于我刚刚讲的信托业者我们信托给这一个信托业者的时候因为他是一个营业法人信托的是一个营业法人"},{"start":113.979,"end":138.273,"text":"所以這一個信託的人他必須先扣5%的營業稅這是第一個第二個就是說他們除了營業稅以外他們在認定所得稅的時候如果是一般的出租把它出租給別人的話他有一個可以認列43%是他的必要開銷57%的部分才是他的一個淨所得但是在"},{"start":139.714,"end":154.224,"text":"在他選擇用信託的時候卻是百分之百他那一筆收益都必須要實質課稅所以這變得說讓很多人在選擇信託的時候他反而這中間被課的稅比他直接把他不動產"},{"start":155.325,"end":169.088,"text":"出租給別人是相對還要比較負擔比較多的一個稅這個我認為不公平第二個 站在現在我們很擔心老人家他的財產被詐騙所以他選擇信託相對是安全的那如果在這樣的考量之下這個稅賦上是不是有調整的空間呢讓他們選擇信託跟選擇出租可以讓他的稅率可以趨於一致"},{"start":183.975,"end":187.144,"text":"這個部分涉及到激增的事務是不是請署長來跟委員做說明"},{"start":189.455,"end":217.924,"text":"報告委員委員提到的是屬於信託存續當中如果他房子出租的時候要繳營業稅的問題那基本上因為我們講的這個受託因為他是營業人那根據營業稅法規定你就是屬於營業行為那就是要課營業稅但他這個營業稅如果他沒有拿去扣抵或什麼他是可以當作信託財產收入的減相所以他的那個要課稅的所得就會變少這是第一點"},{"start":218.744,"end":245.397,"text":"那第二點就是說如果這個受託人他去出租這個財產因為依照稅法規定他是要設帳跟保存憑證所以他的收入是可以減掉實際的成本費用那通常如果實際成本費用可能算出來結果會超過委員剛剛所講自然人所使用的43%的費用率的時候那他反而是有利的反而是有利的所以這實際上要看他個案到底他的成本費用的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":247.089,"end":267.771,"text":"那个是在设定费用的时候但是我要强调的就是说虽然他是一个他是营业法人所以他去出估给别人要负担这笔营业费对不对要负担这笔营业费但是终究他整个的信托利益是要回到这一个信托人"},{"start":268.571,"end":290.905,"text":"那信托人就因为被扣了这5%他相对他未来领到的利益也是会少了这一段所以我是意思是说在这个精算的结果之下实际上我去选择信托的反而会因为这中间的税负负担然后让他得到的利益比他实际出租还要少"},{"start":291.823,"end":295.524,"text":"有這樣的一個狀況我了解委員的意思但是實際上到底他自己管理那個財產還是信託給受託人去管理財產哪一邊的利益會比較大是要看他實際的狀況其實不見得當然實際狀況有很多啦對 不見得但是在課稅上是有一點是數學問題"},{"start":312.25,"end":323.964,"text":"對 就像我剛剛在數學問題上看起來他是相對拿到的反而比較少我鼓勵他去做信託的這個選擇結果他拿到的收益反而少"},{"start":325.841,"end":349.909,"text":"某些假設的情況之下會出現像委員的狀況我覺得你們回去研究一下因為我們最終還是希望說我這個老人家我把財產拿出來信託那我可以收到的利益是相對是可以比較好一點讓他可以有更有誘因去選擇好不好那我是不是再有請這一個這國產署曾署長請曾署長"},{"start":357.322,"end":379.5,"text":"委員好署長是署長事實上你也知道事實上有很多國有土地它可能涉及到在過去的時候他們就是上面已經有建物而且它很多是82721之前的話我們就會把它視為說它是一個寄存的一個事實那我們當然就讓它可以繼續使用"},{"start":380,"end":406.173,"text":"但是事實上署長我們處理過很多城市案件都是在他有沒有82年之前有這個爭議有一些爭議他可能說他憑證不存在他沒有辦法去具體舉證然後就面臨到了說他可能要必須要拆屋還地國產署這個狀況是很多你們也面對監察院的壓力這個我都懂但是我要跟署長說我還是有遇到一些個案"},{"start":407.313,"end":432.91,"text":"他那間房子的所有人就是一個老人家就是一個老人家他一旦這個房子被拆屋還地了他沒有地方住那甚至有的是一對阿嬤他不敢讓他沒錢他怕讓他沒錢他要面對接下來的訴訟跟拆屋還地的話他怕他身體在生病他怕他身體會受不了"},{"start":434.093,"end":460.013,"text":"所以我是觉得说能不能说我们在面对因为如果我们认为说他是有违法的使用你们事实上还是有收相当于使用补偿金还是有在收这笔钱那如果他确实就是一个老人已经他只是在那里就唯一住的一个地方你们在选择诉讼或最后强行执行的时候是不是能够有更多的这个"},{"start":461.278,"end":477.89,"text":"法理情裡面還是有這個情在啦我遇到的有些狀況我也很難過啊因為我知道說站在法律面他沒辦法舉證他是82年前就有的房子那他當然要面對訴訟要面對這些但是他就把那好大而已啊"},{"start":479.534,"end":506.07,"text":"這樣子我簡單回答委員第一個如果真的確實有這個問題的話只要他主張氏族的居住權因為這是國際公約台灣也有簽氏族的居住權也就是說他跟他的直系親屬沒有其他可以居住的地點的話我們可以就不執行相關的債務繁地第二個當然如果"},{"start":506.85,"end":535.429,"text":"有一些比较特殊的情况之下也不是社会大众所关注的部分那这个部分我觉得我们可以考量罗长我跟你说一个很残酷的事实像我接触到的委员个案的问题我有跟他对我没有要讲个案但是说我没有要具体是说但是你也知道台湾人有一个习性女孩嫁出去算人家的女孩有财产"},{"start":536.249,"end":547.159,"text":"有沒有 女孩子有不懂善 有錯那她就沒辦法去主張說她是沒有地方可以安置的"},{"start":550.029,"end":554.332,"text":"你知道有很多又跟一些民間的民間的習俗 規定這些都綜合在一起看我們會覺得很不敢啦我會覺得政府在執行這些事情的時候如果再多一點人性的一些考量上事實上我們還是有持續在收這個使用補償費"},{"start":571.064,"end":597.202,"text":"委員這個部分我們可以來跟審計監察單位再溝通一下因為說實在的國財署也不太願意拆這個房子我知道你們基層的人也都很痛苦這個我都知道但是他們最後跟我的答案就是我們有面對監察院的壓力沒有錯因為我們如果不執行的話所以我在在你們拜託的時候我也很辛苦我知道你們也是面對壓力但是我覺得很多狀況"},{"start":598.343,"end":619.59,"text":"我想透過這個質詢也讓大家知道你也可以到我的質詢拿去給檢察院看真的有很多 我覺得真的好多人我請我同事研究一下對於這一種有一些要拆戶還地的部分能不能有一些特殊的狀況之下可以暫緩因為說實在有的老人家你要叫他搬一個地方"},{"start":622.771,"end":647.529,"text":"他就在那邊跌對不對叫他跌下去他不見得去的時候搞不好就郁郁寡歡或甚至身體就會出現問題其實我們會用同理心我在跟同仁這邊我們在研究在審計監察單位可以接受或法律上面可以有一些授權的時候我們來做一些調整我想委員這個為民眾發聲我們了解你今天這個答覆"},{"start":650.991,"end":654.115,"text":"我聽了很感動大家謝謝感謝謝謝委員謝謝蔡英文委員也謝謝好我想我先做一個"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}