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范委員請謝謝卓院長有請韓院長因為我心裡想的是聽台灣卓院長有請卓院長還有顧立雄顧部長麻煩請卓院長 國防部長備詢"},{"start":40.171,"end":64.61,"text":"范委員好 我相信我們都是Team Taiwan對 我們都是Team Taiwan我看了卓院長在昨天就是我們台澳之戰之後有寫說之前有人提過我想您再講一次很有意義不能夠只在球隊贏球的時候喜歡他們愛他們所以我今天特別穿Team Taiwan我相信我們韓院長一起都會為我們今天晚上的台灣隊加油"},{"start":65.871,"end":81.73,"text":"那我想其實今天我特別要請那個顧立雄顧部長上來也是我們整體都是聽台灣那我想先請顧部長您可以看到我左邊這個夠大嗎看得出來這張是什麼嗎這是個模擬圖"},{"start":86.357,"end":100.035,"text":"一個防空防禦的一個概念防空防禦的這個罩或者是一個網那這個呢是我在查到的是漏透射模擬"},{"start":101.276,"end":124.577,"text":"鐵穹的示意圖那我想今天我特別的因為我們在整個審查的過程中跟藍白對話的過程中我發現台灣民眾非常的不了解就是到底我們這個強軍條例上一屆的幹事長鍾嘉斌一直覺得用軍購條例不夠好他用強軍條例那不管是強化國防"},{"start":125.638,"end":145.588,"text":"因為不只是那我想這個部分部長應該非常了解這個鐵穹已經被非常多人認為是世界上經過實戰考驗最久的防空系統這個是2024年BBC的用語世界上那為什麼可以這樣宣稱呢因為鐵穹根據報導"},{"start":146.488,"end":169.557,"text":"它可以阻擋超過九成的攻擊在極端的威脅下能夠持續戰鬥的系統是一個非常優秀及短程防空能力可以攔截傳統的飛彈防禦過去成功抵禦哈馬斯等加沙武裝組織還有黎巴嫩真主黨發射的飛彈這是2022年的報導再往下我們看"},{"start":174.199,"end":185.075,"text":"根據美國中央司令部司令過去這幾天內CNN報導引用的中東衝突這四天內伊朗軍方已經發射超過500枚彈道飛彈超過2000架無人機"},{"start":190.122,"end":204.471,"text":"那這邊我給大家的照片這個是BBC的照片那不只是國際媒體顧部長應該沒有機會看到下一頁就是我們台灣人在以色列透過社群媒體"},{"start":205.211,"end":222.079,"text":"告訴我們他在五天前拍的照他在正常的工作的過程中聽到警報然後後來出來的時候他的小孩看到說天上有人在畫畫結果他看了一下他說這是鐵穹攔截的白煙霧線條"},{"start":223.72,"end":239.116,"text":"那非常多人現在在追蹤我們這個台灣人在以色列的發文讓我們知道他們怎麼樣就是強大的國防實力跟全民防衛的一個力量鎮靜的繼續過他們的生活下一張"},{"start":240.217,"end":265.34,"text":"那他也給我們看到剛剛的那個攔截後十分鐘之後飛彈的碎片會落地然後這個作者他自己拍給大家看的這洛杉磯猶太小街製那我覺得這個以色列的鐵穹也許會有助於理解台灣的處境下一頁那當然我們知道我們面對的是非常不一樣的敵人"},{"start":266.448,"end":290.018,"text":"伊朗的國防預算根據我查到的資料就2026年到2027年兩年是2.9兆新台幣那中國呢我們的敵人中國他的國防預算2026年是8.8兆所以我想部長非常的同意我們跟以色列的處境不同因為我們面對更大的威脅"},{"start":291.718,"end":320.978,"text":"今天我想透過這個機會想問部長一個問題因為我看到非常多的國防專家下一頁在討論一件事台灣之盾跟鐵穹有哪些相同跟不同的地方部長可以在這邊告訴大家我相信它有相同因為如果不同沒有人會拿來做比較哪裡相同可是我們也知道面對的敵人實力不一樣地理位置也不一樣我們有台灣海峽他們沒有武器實力也不同"},{"start":321.818,"end":347.565,"text":"攻擊的武器是不同部長可以解釋一下鐵穹跟台灣之盾有沒有相同點然後不同的是在哪裡嗎我這邊跟委員報告一下以色列他現在的一個現役的重層的防空系統鐵穹是他的一個底層也就是說主要是反火箭跟火炮那麼他其實還有一個中間層叫大衛坦工"},{"start":348.086,"end":366.967,"text":"然後他另外還搭配上層的這個叫AERO就是JANCE這個彈道的防禦系統來搭配最近甚至有搭配的一個叫做Iron Beam就是鐵塑的雷射武器所以他是一個多層的一個那我們現在要打造的這個台灣之盾也是"},{"start":367.908,"end":395.632,"text":"依照總統指導也是要建立一個分層防禦所以一樣都是多層高中低的一個分層防禦那我們要有一個能夠高度感知然後能夠有效攔截高度感知有效攔截所以在這邊也要跟委員報告一下就是說不管是這個我看到國民黨昨天提出來那個版本那麼他現在是說"},{"start":397.125,"end":419.305,"text":"就這個現在已經智慧國會的這幾個部分讓他把它擺進來擺進來之後他雖然講說是有3800億加N但事實上他說你要加的話要再另外提特別條例所以我今天早上已經有回答了也就是說他這個條例其實上線就是3800億他沒有加N這個概念"},{"start":419.705,"end":445.658,"text":"所以他沒有加這個概念意思就是說現在所有有關台灣之盾的部分事實上都沒有擺進來我可以暫停一下所以部長依照你講的下一頁我們現在如果用國民黨這個3800億加N而且N我想已經都有人講過N是空的嘛他只是說得提一個第二期不是 他說可以再提一個特別條例這個"},{"start":448.739,"end":477.019,"text":"這有講跟沒講一樣嘛因為我本來就可以再提一個特別條例那意思就是說這一個特別條例這一個他現在提出的這個版本的特別條例就是3800億為頂了那你要另外再提那你另外再提特別條例那一樣我們要透過一個特別條例然後互違然後另外通過之後我們還要再提出預算然後他說要等到什麼拿到發價書之後我們才可以提出另外一個特別條例我想這個"},{"start":478.66,"end":496.097,"text":"對於軍購的整個程序是完全不理解這是一個預算的概念我想這兩年以來行政院跟立法院之間會存在很多爭執也就在這裡記得去年是立法院希望行政院自行統參自行刪除自己的預算"},{"start":497.612,"end":515.384,"text":"過去是沒有這樣過去至少要經過兩院院長協商那這一次是立法院的預算的方式是立法院想要可以加再來加加一個N字如果可以3800億加N那這個N代表什麼意義現在沒有人知道所有的法案我們如果只有一個硬體只有購買一些硬體對"},{"start":517.326,"end":531.557,"text":"實體而沒有把我們整套的軟體設計好以後再加進來都沒有用的這是一個常識問題我們家裡裝電腦也是一樣為什麼國家的國防系統要這樣分割呢我實在沒有辦法理解也無法接受"},{"start":531.997,"end":553.27,"text":"好 謝謝院長那部長所以很明確現在依照國民黨這個版本是做不到台灣之盾原本你們花了兩年的時間規劃設計的這個多層這沒錯吧就是說簡單講第一個它其實沒有3800億加N的概念它就是3800億因為N這個事情它要另外提特別條例所以沒有加N這個這第一個"},{"start":553.871,"end":579.971,"text":"第二個這裡面沒有含任何台灣之盾的元素第三個他說這個特別預算的執行期間要到117年的年底為止到2028年底也就是117年底為止那事實上我們現在他所提出來的有關不管是自走炮海馬仕或者是有關這個托斯飛彈跟標槍這些我們沒有辦法在117年的12月31號以前獲得的話"},{"start":581.776,"end":590.233,"text":"就無效了 對所以這個連時程都是假的 對然後他還要懲罰他要不要移送監察院"},{"start":592.495,"end":617.371,"text":"我看民眾黨的是到中華民國民眾黨至少是到122年這個也就是說我們跟美方有一個有關交易期程的規劃那我們會提出這樣子的一個方案這是我們要跟他那所以至少至少就軍購便宜我們先不要講說現在全部都沒有我們所必要剛剛院長提到的我們要AI的輔助學術系統我們要有自身的強弓的中程的彈道的"},{"start":619.253,"end":637.209,"text":"這個彈道攔截的一個中程的一個反戰術彈道飛彈的一個這個我們自己的委資系統才會構成整個台灣之盾然後就算它這個項目裡面就在它這個項目裡面軍購的部分它也暫時都沒有擺進來那它現在說要等到發價數我想這個程序上絕對是來不及的"},{"start":637.689,"end":653.808,"text":"所以總的來講如果依照他現在講的實質執行期間到117年為止即使是他現在所提的我們講的這些美國已經國會的這些項目的話這執行上也不可能所以這個條例等同是實質上全面的擋住了"},{"start":658.001,"end":670.86,"text":"我們這個特別預算建立人體戰力的一個可能性全面擋住了這個特別預算因為它不只是就是該有的系統沒有連武器的部分事實上也實質限住了剛講它時程上到2028年底"},{"start":674.945,"end":697.335,"text":"以我最近聽到的AIT的很多的部分事實上這是買方市場嘛就像您剛所講的就是包含國防部的新聞稿賣方市場所以我想這問題真的很大那因為不過所幸今天早上大院是連行政院院板都覆了所以將來是有機會是有機會好好的來審理要讓馬兒好就讓馬兒跑不要跑兩步回頭還要來吃草"},{"start":701.978,"end":720.852,"text":"而且我在這邊也要講我們的無人系統我想這個是非常可以看得出來在俄武戰爭無人系統事實上已經發揮了關鍵性的一個作用甚至連這一次美國攻擊伊朗也用了無人系統所以無人系統的自主性"},{"start":722.113,"end":737.539,"text":"他的這個對我們的防衛人心是非常重要的如果將我們的特別預算將這個整個無人系統我們有一個做一個長程的規劃讓這個所有願意投入這個無人系統的這一個我們國內的這些廠家都能夠看得到"},{"start":738.038,"end":758.768,"text":"他的未來他才能夠建立一個自主的規模這對我們整個防衛任性的建構是非常非常重要的我也非常認同無人系統的建立也許是後值本土的國防產業的重要性但是我看到反對黨的說法就是說他認為這裡面可能會有弊端部長您怎麼回應這個部分"},{"start":760.211,"end":786.225,"text":"我想這個所有這些項目我們都是會經過公開的一個採購那所以還會按照這個採購法來相關然後我們也會接受相關的一個集合所以不能夠去汙名化這個不管是國內的委制或商購的部分那國防自主一直是我們這個國防建立國防能量的"},{"start":787.011,"end":800.888,"text":"一個重要的一個元素這也名利在國防法裡面的那似乎現在意思就是說我們反正是在國內我們進行委資或進行商購都會被他講成好像是就"},{"start":802.372,"end":820.378,"text":"沒有辦法讓國人能夠相信這個在國防部立場我完全沒有辦法認同那我認為很多必須要立即獲得的事項國內的現有市場已經有了而且國內具有產生能量的"},{"start":820.678,"end":836.398,"text":"而且我們還要因應這一個科技的迭代創新像無人系統那我們更要監管國防的一個產業發展這些等等的因素我們認為除了軍購以外 煨制跟山購這種管道獲得的裝備也是非常非常需要的"},{"start":837.298,"end":860.875,"text":"報告委員賴總統的治國理念非常清楚一定是要清清靈靈的一定是要嚴懲不法的如果政府任何採購有任何的弊端政府內部自己嚴查嚴辦國防部如果軍購採購有弊端國防部自己嚴辦國防部不辦行政院來辦真有弊端不用立法院來移送行政院自己就嚴厲的來處置這個請大家要有信心"},{"start":863.177,"end":878.569,"text":"我想當然拿口罩國家隊來比喻並不是很好但是最重要的是它是一個防衛的韌性所以無人機國家隊我想這樣子的一個自主國防產業跟飛鴻工藝鏈我是非常的認同所以我也是覺得反對黨"},{"start":879.85,"end":896.929,"text":"就是以這個理由來講的話根本就是阻撓我們的防衛韌性因為這一次國防部的理念中除了不對稱的戰力之外另外一個就是防衛韌性所以非常的重要那我想部長應該可以認同這是我從專家的說法中看到的台灣之盾"},{"start":897.389,"end":923.883,"text":"不是只有武器購買我們剛講武器購買國民黨的也是有很多的問題還有雷達升級特別是整合戰鬥指揮系統還有人工智慧AI跟相關的一個體系的建立那這些部分在國民黨的版本中都沒有不知道顧部長你覺得我這個整理有沒有錯嗎我們這次的三個目標打造台灣之盾民眾黨的做不到國民黨的也做不到"},{"start":924.423,"end":949.314,"text":"然後高科技加速擊殺鏈第二個兩個也都沒有飛鴻供應鏈也完全被刪掉了部長覺得我這個整理的有沒有錯是 我想我們在我們要籌購的這個能力的項目裡面就有一個非常重要就是AI輔助與C5ISR系統這個部分就包括了這個人工智慧決測資源系統那這個部分會要整合我們整個台灣"},{"start":959.486,"end":987.381,"text":"做為一個大廈做為一個大廈一個非常重要的一個大廈那你看說像現在說馬來西亞那些都沒有這些都沒有這些都沒有不需要不需要不需要不需要不需要不需要不需要"},{"start":1003.318,"end":1010.48,"text":"發言人 韓院長謝謝你的質詢好 謝謝卓院長相關部會收到背景 謝謝我們接下來本日最"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.268000+08:00","text":"謝謝卓院長，有請……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:05.268000+08:00","text":"是韓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:05.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:06.268000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.749000+08:00","text":"韓院長，因為我心裡想的是Team Taiwan的卓院長。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:04.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:05.109000+08:00","text":"有請卓院長，還有顧立雄顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:05.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:05.229000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長、國防部部長備詢。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:32.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:32.491000+08:00","text":"范委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:32.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:34.433000+08:00","text":"我相信我們都是Team Taiwan。對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:34.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:35.914000+08:00","text":"我們都是Team Taiwan。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:36.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:03:56.590000+08:00","text":"我看了卓院長在昨天的臺澳之戰之後，有寫說之前有人提過，我想您再講一次是很有意義的，不能夠只在球隊贏球的時候喜歡他們、愛他們，所以我今天特別穿Team Taiwan的衣服，我相信韓院長都會一起為我們今天晚上的臺灣隊加油。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:03:59.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:05.240000+08:00","text":"今天我特別請顧立雄顧部長上來，也是因為我們整體都是Team Taiwan。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:09.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:12.889000+08:00","text":"顧部長，您可以看到我左邊這個圖，夠大嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:12.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:13.550000+08:00","text":"看得出來這張是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:13.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:13.730000+08:00","text":"這是個模擬圖。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:18.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:20.780000+08:00","text":"一個防空防禦的概念。對！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:21.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:04:56.557000+08:00","text":"防空防禦的一個罩或者是網，我查到的是路透社模擬鐵穹的示意圖，因為在整個審查的過程中、跟藍白對話的過程中，我發現臺灣民眾非常不瞭解到底什麼是強軍條例，上一屆的幹事長鍾佳濱一直覺得用「軍購條例」不夠好，他用「強軍條例」，因為不只是強化國防。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:04:59.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:05:13.185000+08:00","text":"這個部分部長應該非常了解，鐵穹已經被非常多人認為是世界上經過實戰考驗最久的防空系統，這是2024年BBC的用語──「世界上」。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:05:14.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:05:15.367000+08:00","text":"為什麼可以這樣宣稱呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:05:16.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:05:40.556000+08:00","text":"因為根據報導，鐵穹可以阻擋超過九成的攻擊，是在極端威脅下能夠持續戰鬥的系統，具有非常優秀極短程防空能力，是可以攔截傳統飛彈的防禦系統，過去成功抵禦哈瑪斯等加沙武裝組織，還有黎巴嫩真主黨發射的飛彈，這是2022年的報導。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:05:46.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:06:05.204000+08:00","text":"根據CNN報導，美國中央司令部司令表示，中東衝突過去這四天內，伊朗軍方已經發射超過500枚彈道飛彈，超過2,000架無人機，這邊我給大家看的是BBC的照片。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:06:06.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:06:34.079000+08:00","text":"不只是國際媒體，顧部長應該沒有機會看到我們臺灣人在以色列透過社群媒體告訴我們他在五天前拍的照，他在正常的工作過程中聽到警報，後來出來的時候，他的小孩看到天上有人在畫畫，結果他看了一下，他說這是鐵穹攔截的白煙霧線條。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:06:35.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:06:50.475000+08:00","text":"現在非常多人在追蹤這個臺灣人在以色列的發文，讓我們知道他們強大的國防實力跟全民防衛的力量，鎮靜的繼續過他們的生活。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:06:52.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:07:02.066000+08:00","text":"他也拍了剛剛的攔截在10分鐘之後飛彈碎片落地的照片給大家看。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:07:02.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:07:11.755000+08:00","text":"本席出示的這些是「洛杉磯猶太小街誌」的圖文，我覺得以色列的鐵穹也許會有助於理解臺灣的處境。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:07:13.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:07:29.012000+08:00","text":"當然我們知道我們面對的是非常不一樣的敵人，伊朗的國防預算根據我查到的資料，2026年到2027年兩年是2.9兆新臺幣；中國呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:07:29.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:07:42.018000+08:00","text":"我們的敵人──中國，他的國防預算2026年是8.8兆，所以我想部長非常同意我們跟以色列的處境不同，因為我們面對更大的威脅。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:07:43.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:07:58.528000+08:00","text":"今天透過這個機會我想問部長一個問題，因為我看到非常多國防專家在討論一件事：臺灣之盾與鐵穹有哪些相同跟不同的地方？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:07:59.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:08:00.530000+08:00","text":"部長可以在這邊告訴大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:08:00.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:08:05.493000+08:00","text":"我相信它有相同，因為如果不同，沒有人會拿來做比較，哪裡相同？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:08:06.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:08:22.140000+08:00","text":"可是我們也知道面對的敵人實力不一樣，地理位置也不一樣，我們有臺灣海峽，他們沒有；攻擊的武器實力也不同，部長可以解釋一下鐵穹與臺灣之盾有沒有相同點，然後不同的是在哪裡嗎？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:08:22.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:08:55.323000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一下，其實以色列現役的重層防空系統，鐵穹是他的一個底層，主要是反火箭跟火炮；它其實還有一個中間層叫David's Sling，就是大衛彈弓，然後另外還搭配上層叫Arrow，就是箭式彈道飛彈防禦系統，最近甚至有搭配了一個叫做Iron Beam，就是鐵束雷射武器，所以它是多層的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:08:56.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:03.351000+08:00","text":"我們現在要打造的臺灣之盾依照總統的指導，也是要建立一個分層防禦，也就是有……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:03.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:05.933000+08:00","text":"所以一樣都是多層的防禦系統？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:05.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:07.955000+08:00","text":"多層，高、中、低的分層防禦。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:08.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:12.899000+08:00","text":"我們要有一個能夠高度感知，然後能夠有效攔截……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:13.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:15.461000+08:00","text":"高度感知、有效攔截，還有呢？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:16.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:09:43.778000+08:00","text":"所以在這邊也要跟委員報告一下，不管是我看到國民黨昨天提出來的版本，他是把現在已經知會國會的這幾個部分擺進來，擺進來之後，雖然講有3,800億加N，但事實上他說你要加的話要再另外提特別條例。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:09:43.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:00.149000+08:00","text":"所以我今天早上已經回答了，也就是他們這個條例其實上限就是3,800億，並沒有加N這個概念，他沒有加N這個概念的意思就是說，現在所有有關臺灣之盾的部分事實上都沒有擺進來。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:01.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:15.016000+08:00","text":"所以部長，依照你講的，現在如果用國民黨3,800億加N的版本，而且已經都有人講過，N是空的，他只是說「得」提第二期。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:15.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:17.638000+08:00","text":"不是，他說可以再提一個特別條例。對。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:17.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:21.340000+08:00","text":"這個有講跟沒講一樣嘛，就是說……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:21.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:24.262000+08:00","text":"因為本來就可以再提一個特別條例嘛。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:25.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:53.543000+08:00","text":"本來就可以再提一個特別條例，意思就是說，他現在提出的這個版本的特別條例就是3,800億為頂了，要另外再提的話，就要另外再提特別條例，一樣，我們要透過特別條例的話就要先付委，通過之後我們還要再提出預算，而且他說要等拿到發價書之後，我們才可以提出另外一個特別條例，我想這對於整個軍購程序是完全不理解的。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:53.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:10:54.543000+08:00","text":"好，那我想……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:10:53.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:23.842000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這是一個預算的概念，我想這兩年以來，行政院跟立法院之間會存在很多爭執也就在這裡，記得去年是立法院希望行政院自行統刪、自行刪除自己的預算，過去沒有這樣的，過去至少要經過兩院院長協商，這一次立法院的預算方式是立法院想要讓它可以加再來加，加一個「N」字，如果可以3,800億加N，那這個N代表什麼意義，現在沒有人知道……","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:24.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:24.723000+08:00","text":"所有的法案理論上都可以加N嘛。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:24.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:41.055000+08:00","text":"我們如果只有購買一些硬體、實體，而沒有把整套的軟體設計好，以後再加進來都沒有用的，這是一個常識問題，我們家裡裝電腦也是一樣嘛，為什麼國家的國防系統要這樣分割呢？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:41.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:43.537000+08:00","text":"我實在沒有辦法理解，也無法接受。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:43.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:46.118000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:46.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:11:56.184000+08:00","text":"部長，所以很明確，現在依照國民黨這個版本是做不到臺灣之盾，也就是原本你們花了兩年時間規劃設計的這個多層的，這沒錯吧？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:11:57.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:01.167000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，簡單來講，第一個，他其實沒有3,800億加N的概念，他就是3,800億，因為……","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:01.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:02.167000+08:00","text":"加N是假的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:01.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:05.270000+08:00","text":"因為N這個事情他要另外提特別條例，所以沒有加N這個事，這是第一個。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:05.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:14.858000+08:00","text":"第二個，這裡面沒有含任何臺灣之盾的元素；第三個，他說這個特別預算的執行期間要到117年的年底為止……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:15.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:16.419000+08:00","text":"對，到2028年底。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:16.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:18.281000+08:00","text":"就是117年底為止。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:18.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:31.971000+08:00","text":"事實上，現在他所提出來的，不管是自走砲、海馬士，或者是拖式飛彈跟標槍，這些我們沒有辦法在117年12月31號以前獲得的話……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:33.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:35.720000+08:00","text":"就無效了。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:35.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:36.862000+08:00","text":"所以這個連時程都是假的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:37.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:42.213000+08:00","text":"對，然後他還要懲罰我，他要把我移送監察院調查、懲戒。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:44.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:47.037000+08:00","text":"我看民眾黨的版本是到中華民國122年……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:47.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:49.599000+08:00","text":"民眾黨至少是到122年……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:49.599000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:12:50.599000+08:00","text":"國民黨的是到117年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:12:50.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:13:19.660000+08:00","text":"也就是說我們跟美方有一個有關交易期程的規劃，我們會提出這樣的方案，這是我們要跟他……所以至少就軍購面來看，我們先不要講說現在全部都沒有我們所必要的，剛剛院長提到了，我們要AI的輔助決策系統，我們要有自身的強弓飛彈武器系統，能夠在中層攔截彈道飛彈，也就是我們必須要有自己的委製系統，才能構成整個臺灣之盾。","quality":0.813},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:13:22.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:13:29.189000+08:00","text":"另外，就在他這個項目裡面，軍購的部分也暫時都沒有擺進來，他現在說要等到發價書，我想這在程序上絕對是來不及的。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:13:29.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:13:53.106000+08:00","text":"所以總的來講，如果依照他現在講的實質執行期間到117年為止，即使是他現在所提的美國已經知會國會的這些項目，在執行上也不可能，所以這個條例等同是實質上全面擋住了我們這個特別預算及建立整體戰力的可能性。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:13:53.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:15.549000+08:00","text":"所以國民黨的條例等於是實質上全面擋住了這個特別預算，因為他不只是該有的系統沒有，連武器的部分也實質限制住了，剛剛講他的時程到2028年底，以我最近聽到的AIT的很多說法，事實上這是買方市場嘛，就像您剛剛所講的，包含國防部的新聞稿……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:15.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:16.129000+08:00","text":"賣方市場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:16.129000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:17.129000+08:00","text":"喔，賣方市場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:16.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:19.871000+08:00","text":"所以我想這個問題真的很大，因為……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:19.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:24.013000+08:00","text":"不過所幸今天早上大院連行政院版都付委了……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:24.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:25.013000+08:00","text":"至少付委了。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:24.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:27.975000+08:00","text":"所以將來是有機會好好地來審議。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:27.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:14:29.315000+08:00","text":"要讓馬兒好，就要讓馬兒跑，不要跑兩步回頭還要來吃草。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:14:33.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:15:15.961000+08:00","text":"而且我在這邊也要講，我們的無人系統，我想在俄烏戰爭可以看得出來，無人系統已經發揮了關鍵性的作用，甚至連這一次美國攻擊伊朗也用了無人系統，所以無人系統的自主性對我們的防衛韌性是非常重要的，如果我們的特別預算將整個無人系統做一個長程的規劃，讓所有願意投入無人系統的國內廠家都能夠看到它的未來，它才能夠建立一個自主的規模，這對於我們整個防衛韌性建構是非常、非常重要的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:15:16.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:15:30.748000+08:00","text":"我也非常認同無人系統的建立，尤其是厚植本土國防產業的重要性，但是我看到反對黨的說法是，他們認為這裡面可能會有弊端，部長，您怎麼回應這個部分？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:15:33.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:15:52.002000+08:00","text":"所有這些項目我們都會經過公開的採購，會按照政府採購法來辦理，然後我們也會接受相關的稽核，所以不能夠污名化國內委製或商購的部分。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:15:53.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:16:21.274000+08:00","text":"國防自主一直是我們建立國防能量的一個重要元素，這也明定在國防法裡面，但似乎現在的意思是說，只要是我們在國內進行委製或進行商購都會被他講成好像沒有辦法讓國人相信，這部分我站在國防部立場完全沒有辦法認同！","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:16:22.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:16:48.137000+08:00","text":"我認為很多必須要立即獲得的事項是國內現有市場已經有的，而且國內具有產製能量，我們還要因應科技的迭代創新，像無人系統，此外我們更要兼顧國防產業發展等等的因素，因此我們認為除了軍購以外，委製跟商購這種管道獲得的裝備也是非常、非常需要！","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:16:48.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:16:49.298000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:16:49.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:16:56.384000+08:00","text":"報告委員，賴總統的治國理念非常清楚，一定是要清清廉廉的，一定是要嚴懲不法的！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:16:57.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:17:12.855000+08:00","text":"如果政府任何採購有任何的弊端，政府內部自己嚴查嚴辦，國防部如果軍事採購有弊端，國防部自己嚴辦，國防部不辦由行政院來辦，真有弊端不用立法院來移送，行政院自己就會嚴厲的來處置，這個請大家要有信心！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:17:15.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:17:43.282000+08:00","text":"當然拿口罩國家隊來比喻並不是很好，但最重要的是它是一個防衛韌性，所以無人機國家隊這樣子的一個自主國防產業跟非紅供應鏈我非常的認同，因此我也覺得反對黨以這個理由來講根本就是阻撓我們的防衛韌性，因為這一次國防部的理念中除了不對稱戰力之外，另外一個就是防衛韌性，所以非常的重要。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:17:43.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:18:10.820000+08:00","text":"我想部長應該可以認同，這是我從專家的說法中看到的，臺灣之盾不是只有武器購買（我們剛剛講武器購買在國民黨的版本中也是有很多問題），還有雷達升級，特別是整合戰鬥指揮系統，還有人工智慧（AI）跟相關體系的建立，這些部分在國民黨的版本中都沒有，不知道顧部長覺得我的這個整理有沒有錯？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:18:10.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:18:25.667000+08:00","text":"關於我們這次三個目標中的打造臺灣之盾，民眾黨的版本做不到，國民黨的版本也做不到；關於第二個高科技加速擊殺鏈，兩個也都沒有；非紅供應鏈也完全被刪掉了，部長覺得我整理的有沒有錯？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-06T15:18:25.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:09.456000+08:00","text":"是，在我們要籌購的能力項目裡面就有一個非常重要的AI輔助與C5ISR系統，這個部分就包括了人工智慧決策支援系統，這個部分會要整合我們整個臺灣……這裡面要做一個整合……這個整合起來，不管是我們國造還是美製的，這個武器整合作為一個大腦是一個非常重要的元素，你不能夠想像說這個買來就能夠很精準……這些都沒有像……無效地防衛……這個對我們整體防衛韌性非常重要……因此希望大家都能……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:09.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:16.041500+08:00","text":"好，讓我們一起守護。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:16.041500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:22.627000+08:00","text":"韓院長，我想臺灣之盾不分顏色都可以受惠，希望您可以呼籲藍白反對黨，我們一起守護我們的家園，不分顏色！","quality":0.044},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:22.627000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:29.212500+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:29.212500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:35.798000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:35.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:37.959000+08:00","text":"范雲委員，韓院長謝謝你的質詢！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:38.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:41.160000+08:00","text":"謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-06T15:19:41.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-06T15:19:47.660000+08:00","text":"接下來請本日最後一位質詢委員蘇清泉委員質詢。","quality":0.286}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}