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直登是19萬謝謝部長已經把我的第二個問題回答出來那我現在想請教部長一個簡單的數學問題就是直登率是多少直登率大概我們從過去看起來average大概在6成到6成5之間"},{"start":97.959,"end":121.731,"text":"我們的直燈率就如同部長所言就大概是在六成上下那這個直燈率部長你覺得高嗎當然我們還有很多的空間就是很多的場域還是需要護理人員的加入那當然我們也在擴大這個可以直燈的這個場域所以這個直燈客觀上來說其實是不高的是低的"},{"start":122.971,"end":137.74,"text":"羅馬不是一天造成的值登率低也不是一天造成的是從過去今年累月累積到今天我們看到這個63的數字其實是非常的低其實是非常的低那我想值登率會低是因為離職率高"},{"start":138.921,"end":166.778,"text":"職登率會低是因為護理系學生的註冊率也低所以我們的立法院預算中心其實他就有指出說即使衛福部通過了12項護理人力的整備計畫但是護理人力還是沒有有效的提升讓我們來看圖說故事這副圖的意境是在一條充滿毒物的河流當中"},{"start":167.799,"end":189.716,"text":"於而自身其中受不了毒物的侵襲所以逃離了這條河那我覺得我們護理職場的困境跟這一個圖的意境也非常的接近就是我們護理人員自身在充滿毒物的護理環境因為受不了被這些毒物所侵襲所以離開了職場紛紛的離開職場那我這邊想請教部長"},{"start":194.019,"end":221.985,"text":"你覺得護理職場的毒物是什麼為什麼會讓護理人員紛紛的想逃離好跟委員說明一下齁那這個過去在從2020開始的這一個全球的這個疫情啊那麼帶來很大的衝擊那我們護理人員確實是非常的辛苦那也因為呢護理人員的投入才能夠讓全球的疫情走出不過呢從全球的報告也看得出來這個長期這個"},{"start":224.213,"end":250.502,"text":"長達二到三年的這種疫情也造成了臨床上非常的burn out所以在這個疫情過後全球都發生人力短缺特別是護理人力的短缺部長我知道我想歸咎於COVID-19的問題我想這是一個毋庸置疑的原因這個是其中一個原因但是還有其他的原因當然也會牽涉到我列舉三大毒物"},{"start":251.262,"end":266.08,"text":"在護理職場這條河流當中第一個就是護病比高第二個就是低薪第三個就是勞動條件差那請問一下部長您怎麼看當然從這個我們疫情之後也提出了這個改善這個"},{"start":267.217,"end":290.628,"text":"護理人力的12項策略就是從這三個方向來著手第一個就是人才培育第二個就是正向的職場第三個就是薪資的改善所以我們就從這三個方向提出了12項策略那慢慢慢慢的我們也看到了12項策略我滾瓜爛熟非常了如指掌那12項策略其實裡頭並沒有"},{"start":292.869,"end":317.075,"text":"低薪的提升當然有提到夜班津貼但那不是一個整體薪資的提升有有薪資的提升有在裡頭跟委員說明我們投入了除了剛剛您提到的夜班津貼還有這個三班戶比比獎勵之外我們在這個健保的部分也在做調整像我們去年就調整了這個護理費的部分"},{"start":319.056,"end":330.685,"text":"25億這個會出現在我等一下那它就要轉換到然後我們各項的調整我等一下會呈現護理界的第二個度性物質新資要搭配著提升我們等一下在那邊提到那當然謝謝部長您的補充"},{"start":332.406,"end":346.302,"text":"那我這邊提一下就是您提到十二項整備計劃其實在我一個護理法律學者來看我覺得十二項整備計劃完全沒有提到勞動條件的改善那這一點我們也等一下在第三個進步有啊我們在裡面"},{"start":347.583,"end":366.795,"text":"也有所謂的友善職場的典範推動這個也有在裡面沒關係我們等到第三部分再來慢慢的細說這些我們很關切的主題那也因為我們護理職場這條河充滿毒性物質所以護理的缺口就是始終補不起來"},{"start":367.976,"end":387.296,"text":"去年衛福部提出關於護理人力的高推估是21萬那低推估是20萬8千可是真正投入職場卻只有19萬那這個缺口我想是持續的存在甚至到了2030年也就是民國119年這個缺口就變更大因為當時"},{"start":388.637,"end":401.983,"text":"衛福部所提出來的一個評估的結果護理人力需要的人數是24到26萬那看起來人力的缺口會有5到7萬那請問一下這麼大的一個人力缺口請問衛福部要怎麼因應"},{"start":403.36,"end":425.402,"text":"跟委員說明確實在人力上我們有缺口不過現在也慢慢看到已經在回流當中那麼以現在今年跟去年同期比已經增加4700多人慢慢在回流那另一方面我們要從另外兩個部分一個就是負荷的減輕剛剛提到的我們也導入了所謂的住院整合性照護把這個"},{"start":427.09,"end":441.541,"text":"護理的助手 照護員把他引入我知道 你在講12項整備計畫的內容那我當然覺得那些是重要但不是最重要的導入智慧照護我們透過科技的協助那麼也來簡化 優化"},{"start":442.822,"end":462.937,"text":"非常急於想要跟我分享你如何改善護理的困境那我們先從第一個毒性物質開始來說題好不好就是高護病比那我想請教一下部長你應該知道現行的法律秩序就是以全日平均護病比來規範護理人員的人力那這裡有三個數字分別是92跟15請問一下部長對這組數字滿意嗎"},{"start":468.18,"end":493.3,"text":"這個是在設置標準裡頭但是我們在113年有開始設定了三班互併比的目標那才會導入這個三班互併比的獎勵計畫就講到我們護理人員胸口永遠的痛因為三班互併比從你剛剛有講三個數字那三個數字 抱歉三班互併比有九個數字這九個數字部長你還記得是什麼時候公告的嗎"},{"start":494.14,"end":507.692,"text":"這個是在113年大家討論出來啦作為一個目標作為我們這個叫做三班互併比獎勵達標的這個標準啦三班互併比有九個數字這九個數字是在2025年"},{"start":509.933,"end":531.703,"text":"2024年1月26號公告的對就是如同你說的113年但是這個三班戶病比公告至今已經超過兩年了但是都還沒有入法所以我才剛說這是我們護理人員胸口永遠的痛因為一直在期待我們大有為的政府有為有守的衛福部能夠趕快加緊的幫我們推出三班戶病比入法結果沒有看到"},{"start":532.103,"end":548.242,"text":"有為的政府幫我們推動反而是我們台灣民眾黨完全已經等不及了在去年12月12號的時候就把三百五病病護法的條文跟委員說明他的這個達標率已經在提升了在113年起始的時候那麼醫學中心能夠達標的大概只有26%"},{"start":550.064,"end":576.383,"text":"那現在已經到70%可以達標所以其實在醫學中心如果達標的數字是由醫院自填的請問你覺得會不會失真而欠缺公信力好那我現在請問一下部長顯然你對這組數字九十二十六是不滿意的所以你才提到三班戶病比的九個數字那我們先解決現行的法律秩序我們再展望未來我們護理人員最引頸期班的三班戶病比"},{"start":577.063,"end":598.538,"text":"那請問一下部長有掌握醫院違反全日平均護病比的開罰資料嗎我們過去這個三班護病比是這樣一方面是設置標準的要求那個是全日護病比那三班護病比呢我們是按照這個目標來做獎勵那但是事實上部長我是在講全日平均護病比"},{"start":598.858,"end":616.661,"text":"的開罰資料你有掌握嗎如果你沒有掌握沒有關係我們本辦我2月3號就職2月11號我就去韓問衛福部請衛福部給我們醫院違反全日平均護病比的開罰資料但是衛福部說3月25號才能給我們那我這邊就想請教"},{"start":617.222,"end":632.97,"text":"卓院長在這邊嘛卓院長不是號稱說他手下都是行動內閣嗎那怎麼我們會要一個資料感覺需要曠日廢時的等待等待五個禮拜有一點被拖拖拉拉的感覺那如果你這樣的一個拖拖拉拉的動作其實是有一點"},{"start":633.53,"end":651.696,"text":"小達臉你的長官他是行動內閣你展現出來的是烏龜內閣 螞蟻內閣 蝸牛內閣我覺得這樣可能會對卓院長很難交代吧好 那全日平均負病比沒關係因為你們要提供資料五個禮拜3月25號眼見的趕快跟委員說明因為這個全日負病比"},{"start":652.396,"end":668.362,"text":"他是設在設置標準那麼他的處分單位是在地方政府所以可能我們是需要跟衛生局要去收集其實如果今天身為一個有監督角色的衛福部你早就應該採用這些資料了我請同仁來加速"},{"start":670.683,"end":698.175,"text":"那麼請這個衛生局趕快提供因為不是立法委員問你你才掌握這些資料應該這些資料你早就應該掌握然後掌握了之後你要思考如何加以改善好那說起這個全日平均護病比的數字呢我想衛福部每個月都有定期公告那這些公告的數字哪裡來的就如同我剛剛說的是醫院自填的請問一下醫院自填會不會有失真欠缺公信力的問題所以這邊我們想要請部長可不可以建立一個查核"},{"start":698.855,"end":724.663,"text":"醫院所填報過來的護病筆的資料我們現在已經有這個機制啦一個就是在那個護理那個爭議平台他可以來提我們也會處理這個就是第一個這個是屬於比較被動式的第二個呢我們有主動式的因為我們有三班護病筆的獎勵所以我們就會去查核他是不是真的有這樣的達標的情形所以那個我們有查核的機制"},{"start":725.363,"end":742.313,"text":"你們的查核機制其實都是來自於醫院的自填我現在是希望能夠有一個客觀不施政具有公信力的我們來講毒核的第二個毒性物質高護病比請問一下三班護病比什麼時候要入法"},{"start":742.873,"end":765.205,"text":"我們會朝這個方向努力我們不期待現在立刻馬上我們台灣民眾黨的版本已經進入進步二讀在去年12月12號我們不期待現在立刻馬上但我們期待的是給壓一個日期讓我們護理人員能夠望梅止渴有一個繼續往前動的一個動力也不要讓職場人力越流失越多"},{"start":767.202,"end":795.568,"text":"我記得那個賴清德總統在總統大選之前曾經說三班互併比兩年入法當時的時間點是2023年9月現在兩年已經過去顯然這張支票已經跳票了當時時任的衛福部部長也就是薛瑞元部長他也在總統大選前說互併比兩年會入法但選後再去問他他就說沒有規劃那這感覺就很像在欺騙護理人員的感情選前山盟海誓選後誤會一場"},{"start":797.318,"end":808.444,"text":"委員 容許我一小段跟你回應很感謝也很尊敬委員對護理人員這樣的一個在專業上給他們很多的建議給我們很多的指導從2008年開始"},{"start":811.89,"end":830.366,"text":"藍丁格爾獎的舉辦就是我參與那個慈悅基金會的藍丁格爾獎所以我跟你們是一樣的我現在跟大家講的是說我們這個三班互聘比我們現在做的先把護理人員他的職登率把它提高提高其中還有一個方法我們希望考用的時候能夠比較合於實際"},{"start":831.387,"end":850.111,"text":"讓考試之後的人能夠增加我需要一個具體時間不用現在立刻馬上望梅止渴壓一個日期喔那部長不好意思因為你們都文質彬彬語速太慢我只剩下17分鐘後面還有一個豐富的一個困境的展現要呈現在大家眼裡"},{"start":852.512,"end":868.332,"text":"我想推動的過程就是先把職登人員再往大提高衛福部或者是行政院對三班戶並比的態度就是延逸延逸再延逸我們護理人員就是等待等待再等待確實有獎勵的方式出來了真的是橫批是不是要"},{"start":869.433,"end":887.925,"text":"寫個衛福部無能四個字這才能反映出我們護理人員的心聲已經獎勵的方式出來了現在把人稅提高一定的程度再來處理好了獎勵是一個方式但不是最好的方式最好的方式是要開罰又或者是說要雙管齊下那我們台灣民眾黨剛剛已經提出來三班戶並比我們有"},{"start":888.746,"end":888.946,"text":"這個我剛剛提過啦"},{"start":909.264,"end":920.109,"text":"要這個入法之前應該先把怎麼入法要把它先理清楚那麼我們的回珠全世界很難有一個固定的固定的數字來做處分"},{"start":928.573,"end":953.974,"text":"因為所有醫院的屬性照護的強度是不一樣的所以人物法要處分它必須要一個明確的法律所以我們進入護理職場這條獨核的第二個獨性護職號D型請問一下 部長你知道我們的總統有曾經說過護理人員的心境護士的薪水有五萬請問你覺得心境護士的薪水有五萬嗎"},{"start":956.523,"end":978.448,"text":"應該要看各個層級跟場域不同我想這個薪水大概只有夢里才有夢里才有五萬這個林靜儀部長次長林靜儀次長又說你們醫事人員不能做夢現在可能連夢里五萬也沒有了這個五萬的說法完全是被審計部的一個決算報告所打臉"},{"start":978.968,"end":1005.523,"text":"因為審計部的決算報告提出來說護理人員新進的他們的月頭保薪資只有3.8萬所以打臉了你的學長邱太元部長說護理人員的薪水有7萬請問一下部長護理人員的薪水有7萬嗎你的版本是什麼我們看到5萬7萬數字眼花繚亂數字看起來很嚮往很羨慕總統還說很羨慕醫護人員那知道我們局內人其實是苦不堪言"},{"start":1007.072,"end":1012.157,"text":"跟委員說明您的這個檢報裡面出現的這個數字主要是來自於在醫院"},{"start":1013.117,"end":1037.37,"text":"我們這個部裡面有一個平台讓這個醫院他要求職的時候他要招募這個護理人員的時候他會把他的薪資條件拖在上面這些數字失真因為來自於自填所以他道歉了我們不要一個會道歉的衛福部我們要一個會做事的衛福部好那我們來討論低薪的問題如何解決剛剛部長您有提到護理費護理費有兩個問題第一個問題就是太低"},{"start":1040.351,"end":1060.07,"text":"第二個問題呢就是健保署給付護理費給醫院醫院有沒有把護理費的點值回饋到護理人員的身上這個無從得知所以我們在這邊想要請部長能夠建立一個監督醫院有把護理費回饋到護理人員薪水上的一個制度部長請問可以嗎"},{"start":1060.37,"end":1087.169,"text":"有 去年就開始做了去年呢我們在調升這個護理費的時候就有個條件他的這個護理人員的薪資的薪籍頭髮薪資要提升所以這個我們已經建立這個機制公開透明因為我們護理界19萬大軍完全都覺得薪水的發放是一個黑箱所以可能要公開透明要揭示要公告要做好這個教育的宣導從去年開始調的這個護理費的部分包含在"},{"start":1087.949,"end":1109.254,"text":"你現在在講數字過低數字過低當然我有看到衛福部這幾年的努力數字確實有微幅的調整但是再講護理費回饋到護理人員的身上有沒有公開透明的機制再來當然我也有看到這裡要肯定一下衛福部就是說有看到對於低薪這個問題今年有發一些獎勵金"},{"start":1110.714,"end":1129.777,"text":"大致有三個一個就是三標護病比達標的獎勵金一個就是夜班津貼一個就是春節獎勵金但是其實這些獎勵金有幾個缺點第一個缺點杯水車薪第二個缺點延遲發放第三個缺點呢一樣如同我剛剛對護理費所提出來的一個批評指教就是說發放的方式不公開透明"},{"start":1130.498,"end":1150.45,"text":"那當然我知道三班戶病比編列預算去年是16億那第一年發出是5.2億那事實上後來的資料慢慢的揭曉其實有些醫院拿到三班戶病比的一個達標的金額有些只拿到這個有5000多塊1000多塊800多塊還有195塊請問你發給醫院三班戶病比達標的獎勵金只有195塊可能連買一個便當都買不起請問這如何能夠達到一個獎勵的效果呢"},{"start":1159.235,"end":1187.055,"text":"跟委員說明這個是一個奇怪的這個outlier啦應該這麼講因為我們有兩筆錢一筆呢是夜班津貼一班津貼是按據上班就有所以他不會出現這個數字我當然我講的是三班戶病比的獎勵金他的獎勵是根據你的收治病人的人數天數去乘以一個百分比出來所以這幾家醫院我都看過特別去查過他可能就一床"},{"start":1187.435,"end":1208.725,"text":"你們這些資料都是來自於病人所以他加成之後的百分比只能這樣所以我們現在已經重新檢討所以現在我們進入第二個題目第二個題目就是關於獎勵僅有延遲發放的問題去年十一十二月應該發的到現在還沒有發放已經進入三月進入四月了"},{"start":1209.125,"end":1234.667,"text":"所以請衛福部在獎勵金的發放上能夠快一點那至於你說的夜班津貼是在次次月的時候發放你發給醫院醫院再發給護理人員護理人員會經過一個還蠻漫長的等待所以衛福部這邊能不能夠監督把這個夜班獎勵金能夠加強一點發放的速度不會因為跟委員說明他現在已經變成是一個常規都是在次月的20號呢連同在健保申報的時候他會一起申報上來"},{"start":1235.827,"end":1261.169,"text":"但是你發給醫院醫院什麼時候發給護理人員這一段再請衛福部能夠來監督那好接下來蔣麗菁有一些黑歷史以前的蔣麗菁創造了黑歷史讓人家現在聽到蔣麗菁三個字就這個敬而未知怎麼說敬而未知呢蔣麗菁沒有專款專用拿去什麼買便當啊做護士服聚餐啊買辦公室的設備所以如果衛福部要發放蔣麗菁的話"},{"start":1263.63,"end":1287.626,"text":"請要有一個公開透明的機制機制建立出來讓我們知道獎勵金的流向可能護理人員才能夠安心也能夠取信於護理人員用途的部分我們是絕配都是用在護理人員身上所以請委員放心你們就是發問卷嘛問醫院你們用到哪邊去那答案也是來自於醫院那我們就是質疑說醫院會不會有失真欠缺控信利的回答"},{"start":1288.607,"end":1309.402,"text":"那請問一下這個請問一下部長怎麼看待因為去年健保署有發出一個風向就是醫事人員的月頭保薪資在醫院不能夠低於兩倍然後在診所不能夠低於1.5倍低於最低工資這樣的數字那如果低於就不能夠作為健保特約醫院的續約的要件這樣子那請問您是時任的"},{"start":1311.203,"end":1336.299,"text":"當時的這個署長所以這個就是您當初署放出來的風向那當然引起基層很大的喝采那我給你一個讚那我知道你可能也有承受來自醫院的壓力所以這個就無疾而終了那現在您從署長提升到這個部長的位置請問有換了位置換了腦袋嗎現在還是有想要主張這樣的一個想法嗎我們還是希望朝這個方向來努力保障這個"},{"start":1337.359,"end":1348.983,"text":"我們這個護理人員的最基本的信息我知道但是具體的方案要出來否則再多的承諾聽起來都是空話護理人員聽起來完全都是到最後發現夢醒時分完全就是一場遊戲一場夢的感覺我們會持續來溝通啦"},{"start":1352.444,"end":1379.536,"text":"當然高薪需要經費的來源財源很重要那財源當然有來自於健保來自於公務預算來自於基金就這樣那我曾經寫過那衛福部下面有很多投書那我曾經寫過一個這個投書衛福部下面很多基金很多基金我也曾經寫過一個投書就是衛護理這個設基金來籌措人力的這個完整性那長照的這個人力也是用基金的方式來支應"},{"start":1380.416,"end":1391.326,"text":"那所以我們有沒有可能來設置一個這個護理人力的基金待會去思考不用現在回答我我們現在進入了獨核的第三項毒性物質有請勞動部長洪森翰請勞動部長"},{"start":1396.701,"end":1422.909,"text":"好那我們呢護理人員勞動條件非常的差那勞動條件差的太陽部長請慢走沒關係我先鋪陳一下劇情因為時間真的非常有限那勞動條件差呢總共我自己羅列八大罪狀但是不只這八大因為時間有限我只羅列八大罪狀所以我想請問勞動那個勞動部長你對於護理人員勞動困境的情形有掌握嗎我先給你一個"},{"start":1424.971,"end":1439.89,"text":"這個提示啦先給你一個提示就是護理人員有超時工作的現象你應該比比皆是你應該了解嘛那超時工作又沒有拿到加班費你應該有掌握嘛那請問一下那個部長有掌握護理界所謂隱形工時的問題嗎"},{"start":1443.093,"end":1449.177,"text":"請問一下可不可以把隱形公食列為公食以行政函式的方式把隱形公食列為公食"},{"start":1460.149,"end":1477.819,"text":"這部分我們可能要 可以來找這個醫療界來討論一下好 謝謝部長願意討論好 那除此之外呢就是我這邊肯定勞動部跟衛福部去年的時候有把護理人員參加繼續教育積分的課程上課的時間列為公式有用韓式的方式來處理 那護理人員"},{"start":1478.459,"end":1496.707,"text":"非常的非常的肯定那但是呢就是有些醫院並沒有按照這個韓式的方式去處理就是當護理人員他們想要把這段時間列為這個工時或者想請工假的時候醫院並沒有並沒有主動的來協助或接受所以勞動部是不是針對這一點能夠納入勞檢的項目"},{"start":1500.269,"end":1509.793,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們在去年那其實也針對這個醫院有一些違反勞基法的狀況那其實我們有修了這個勞基法的這個通用那個我們的"},{"start":1516.255,"end":1545.875,"text":"的有些加重處分的部分其實有把醫療中心跟區醫院其實都放進去所以我想該處罰的該檢查的我想我們都願意來處理好OK好謝謝那那個部長知道我們護理人員啊整天工作下來勞動條件差中午想吃飯休息時間30分鐘想享受都享受不到那想吃飯都吃不到只能夠喝珍珠奶茶那官員呢喝的是有為有守的珍珠奶茶我們護理界喝的是呢有苦有酸的珍珠奶茶"},{"start":1546.395,"end":1562.03,"text":"喝的是辛酸吃的是苦楚那請問一下這個休息時間看得到吃不到這個問題部長有打算怎麼處理嗎委員妳在講的是因為勞基法有規定那工作4小時要休息30分鐘妳講的是這個部分嘛對不對"},{"start":1564.412,"end":1592.097,"text":"那護理人員會覺得說在這休息30分鐘他們其實還是一個stand by的狀況所以沒有辦法真的全心放鬆的休息那的確這個部分是在母法裡面是老心母法裡面訂的所以就是加強取締加強取締可以答應我加強取締有人可以聽我說明就是說可以 但是我只剩4分鐘的確針對工作4小時要休息30分鐘的規定在不同的業別會有不太一樣的情境的需求"},{"start":1592.857,"end":1607.765,"text":"比方說在護理業大家會覺得說這休息30分鐘會覺得說其實無法真的全新的休息可是在某一些其他的業別沒有問題法律既然已經有規定了就加強取締那我們護理界還有所謂花花班的問題換班的間隔少於11個小時"},{"start":1610.046,"end":1630.239,"text":"除此之外護理人員醫院僱主為了彈性運用人力所以想了一些光怪陸離的方式分別是待命、戒休跟跨科調動那我這邊想請問一下可不可以出一個函式把在家待命的時間在醫院待命的時間列為公時因為沒有列為公時護理人員就是在那邊苦等"},{"start":1630.939,"end":1650.916,"text":"再來另外一個關懷錄理的手段就是戒休所謂的戒休就是護理人員從早8點上班到4點可能中午12點就會被請回家說你先回家休息了因為我們沒病人了這個叫做戒休這個時間不是護理人員平白享受日後護理人員要把戒休這4小時還給醫院請問一下這個有沒有違反勞基法"},{"start":1652.503,"end":1666.848,"text":"我跟委員說明其實委員你現在提到的不管是一些工時的問題跟休息的問題我認為我們其實都願意那包括在今天質詢之後來跟我們護理界來做一點討論就是說目前遇到哪些樣態那也跟醫院起來討論"},{"start":1670.229,"end":1697.246,"text":"我們的護理界有一個這個陋習叫做跨科調動因為護理人力缺乏所以A單位缺人就調B單位去我們護理界曾經發生一個悲劇就是在2011年的時候有個護理師在他任職的八天以內新到任八天以內被A單位調到B單位B單位調到C單位最後不堪壓力燒炭自殺這是我們護理界的悲劇也是我們胸口的痛那請問一下跨科調動這件事衛福部勞動部有沒有掌握開罰的數據"},{"start":1700.166,"end":1704.989,"text":"數據我可能還要再調一下數據但是那我跟部長講你永遠調不到數據因為跨科調動是一個違法的事那沒有罰則所以請部長這邊能夠來協助推動違法跨科調動的罰則"},{"start":1716.098,"end":1732.316,"text":"那最後呢我覺得我們會需要跟衛福部這邊討論一下因為關於這個護理業內有一些專業的型態的樣態這的確會需要跟衛福部討論剛剛部長一直提到一個通報平台這個通報平台呢上去申訴的人有四千違反勞基法的"},{"start":1733.897,"end":1760.572,"text":"兩天最後開罰的是五百件裁罰率是16%當然勞動部這邊有一些裁罰的統計那目前查到有過去五年有六百多件那我想這是冰山一角可能也只是黑數那也有望也期待部長這邊能夠再盡量的在勞檢的時候能夠再雷力風行然後能夠加強取定那所以我們這邊請問除了說專案勞檢之外能不能再擴大醫院的專案勞檢這是我們的訴求"},{"start":1762.333,"end":1777.458,"text":"那我最後總結一下就是說請衛福部這個林靜儀市長就說你們這些醫事人員小腦袋我們按了按鈕問題就能夠全部解決了嗎那我覺得衛福部沒有按按鈕"},{"start":1778.178,"end":1800.616,"text":"而是按兵不動對於護理勞動權益的改善按兵不動我這邊有四顆按鈕大膽按下去我想問題是可以獲得某個程度的緩解第一個是提供資料第二個是建立機制第三個是給行政函式第四個是擴大勞檢那提供資料部分就是勞動部跟衛福部勞動衛福部的部分請給我們全日平均戶併比的開發資料還有呢可不可以給我們一"},{"start":1801.497,"end":1830.655,"text":"月頭保薪資作為依據的護理人員的平均薪資因為我們想知道護理的薪水到底多少是五萬嗎七萬嗎還是其他的數字建立機制就是護病比查核的機制不要讓醫院水口說了算護理費獎勵金的公開透明機制請建立起來行政函式請針對隱形工時還有在家待命在醫院待命的工時都把它列為真正可以拿到薪水的工時那最後就是我剛剛跟部長所說的"},{"start":1831.276,"end":1831.637,"text":"擴大專案勞檢以上 質詢謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:02:47+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:02:48+08:00","text":"有請院長及衛福部部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-10T10:02:47.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:02:47.280000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長及衛福部部長備詢。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:17.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:18.222000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:18.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:19.184000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:22.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:22.949000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:23.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:23.530000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:25.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:48.757000+08:00","text":"我今天站在質詢臺上，是肩負著護理同仁的期盼，希望在質詢臺上向我們有為有守的官員請命，希望我們有為有守的政府能夠儘早、趕快的終結我們護理人員血汗的勞動困境。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:50.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:03:57.083000+08:00","text":"我這邊想請教部長，請問部長有掌握我國取得護理人員證書的人數有多少嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:03:57.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:01.193000+08:00","text":"到目前為止是超過19萬，十九萬多。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:01.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:03.715000+08:00","text":"取得證書是30萬。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:03.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:06.337000+08:00","text":"不是，現在執登中的，執登中的是19萬。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:06.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:08.378000+08:00","text":"對，那是我第二個問題。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:08.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:14.142000+08:00","text":"母數是30萬，執登是19萬，謝謝部長已經把我的第二個問題回答出來。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:14.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:18.705000+08:00","text":"我現在想請教部長一個簡單的數學問題，就是執登率是多少？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:19.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:24.009000+08:00","text":"執登率我們從過去看起來，average大概在六成到六成五之間。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:24.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:33.583000+08:00","text":"我們的執登率就如同部長所言，就大概是在六成上下，那這個執登率部長覺得高嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:33.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:04:45.089000+08:00","text":"當然我們還有很多的空間，就是很多的場域還是需要護理人員的加入，我們也在擴大可以執登的場域。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:04:45.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:05:24.993000+08:00","text":"理解，所以這個執登客觀上來說，其實是不高的，是低的，那羅馬不是一天造成的，執登率低也不是一天造成的，是從過去經年累月累積到今天，我們看到這個63%的數字其實是非常的低，我想執登率會低是因為離職率高，執登率會低是因為護理系學生的註冊率也低，立法院預算中心就有指出，即使衛福部通過了十二項護理人力的整備計畫，但護理人力還是沒有有效提升。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:05:26.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:05:40.003000+08:00","text":"讓我們來看圖說故事，這幅圖的意境是在一條充滿毒物的河流當中，魚兒置身其中，受不了毒物的侵襲，所以逃離了這條河。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:05:40.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:05:55.855000+08:00","text":"我覺得護理職場的困境跟這幅圖的意境也非常接近，就是護理人員置身在充滿毒物的護理環境，因為受不了被這些毒物所侵襲，所以紛紛離開了職場。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:05:56.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:04.300000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，你覺得護理職場的毒物是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:04.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:07.660000+08:00","text":"為什麼會讓護理人員紛紛想逃離？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:07.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:09.061000+08:00","text":"好，跟委員說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:11.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:24.944000+08:00","text":"過去、從2020開始的全球疫情帶來很大的衝擊，護理人員確實是非常辛苦，也因為護理人員的投入，才能夠讓全球走出疫情。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:25.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:43.457000+08:00","text":"不過從全球的報告也看得出來，長達二到三年的疫情也造成了臨床上非常的burn out，所以在疫情過後全球都發生人力短缺，特別是護理人力短缺，我們才會提出相關的……","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:43.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:50.320000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道你想歸咎於COVID-19的問題，我想這是一個無庸置疑的原因……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:50.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:06:55.001000+08:00","text":"這是其中一個原因，但是還有其他的原因當然也會牽涉到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:06:55.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:07:07.674000+08:00","text":"我列舉在護理職場這條河流當中的三大毒物，第一個就是護病比高，第二個就是低薪，第三個就是勞動條件差，請問一下部長，您怎麼看？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:07:08.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:07:30.325000+08:00","text":"當然我們從疫情之後也提出了改善護理人力的十二項策略，就是從這三個方向來著手，第一個就是人才培育，第二個就是正向的職場，第三個就是薪資的改善，所以我們就從這三個方向提出了十二項策略，慢慢、慢慢的我們也看到了初步的一些成果出來。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:07:30.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:07:45.330000+08:00","text":"對於十二項策略，我滾瓜爛熟、非常瞭如指掌，其實十二項策略裡頭並沒有低薪的提升，當然有提到夜班津貼，但那不是整體薪資的提升。有！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:07:45.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:07:49.171000+08:00","text":"薪資的提升有在裡頭。有！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:07:49.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:07:50.171000+08:00","text":"再來，勞動條件的改善，護理人員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:07:49.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:06.056000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們投入的除了剛剛您提到的夜班津貼，還有三班護病比獎勵之外，我們在健保的部分也在調整，像我們去年就調整了護理費的部分25億，會投入未來四年……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:06.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:07.137000+08:00","text":"這個會出現在我等一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:07.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:10.319000+08:00","text":"它就要轉換到……然後我們各項的調整……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:13.682000+08:00","text":"我等一下會呈現護理界的第二個毒性物質。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:13.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:14.643000+08:00","text":"薪資要搭配著提升……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:14.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:17.665000+08:00","text":"關於低薪的問題，我們等一下在那邊會提到，當然謝謝部長的補充。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:21.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:32.701000+08:00","text":"您方才提到十二項整備計畫，其實在我身為一個護理法律學者來看，我覺得十二項整備計畫完全沒有提到勞動條件的改善，這一點我們等一下在第三個部分、第三個毒性物質的地方再來提出。有啊！有啊！","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:32.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:39.186000+08:00","text":"我們在裡面也有所謂友善職場的典範推動，這個也有在裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:39.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:08:46.371000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們等到第三部分再來慢慢細說這些我們很關切的主題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:08:46.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:14.056000+08:00","text":"好，也因為護理職場這條河充滿毒性物質，所以護理的缺口始終補不起來，去年衛福部提出關於護理人力的高推估是21萬，低推估是20萬8,000，可是真正投入職場卻只有19萬，我想這個缺口是持續的存在，甚至到了2030年，也就是民國119年，這個缺口就變更大。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:14.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:28.983000+08:00","text":"因為根據當時衛福部所提出來的評估結果，護理人力需要的人數是24到26萬，看起來人力的缺口會有5到7萬，面對這麼大的人力缺口，請問衛福部要怎麼因應？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:31.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:42.372000+08:00","text":"確實在人力上我們有缺口，不過現在也慢慢看到已經在回流當中，以今年跟去年同期比，已經增加四千七百多人，慢慢在回流。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:43.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:56.732000+08:00","text":"另一方面，我們要從另外兩個部分著手，一個就是負荷的減輕，我們也導入了所謂的住院整合性照護，把護理的助手──照服員引入。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:56.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:57.732000+08:00","text":"這個其實……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:57.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:09:59.614000+08:00","text":"我知道，你在講十二項整備計畫的內容。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:09:59.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:00.614000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，這個其實幫忙是很大……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:00.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:03.797000+08:00","text":"我當然覺得那些是重要，但不是最重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:04.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:08.521000+08:00","text":"第二個是導入智慧照護，我們透過科技的協助，也來簡化、優化護理作業。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:09.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:13.925000+08:00","text":"我知道，部長非常急於想要跟我分享你如何改善護理的困境。是。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:14.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:17.528000+08:00","text":"我們先從第一個毒性物質開始說起，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:17.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:19.169000+08:00","text":"就是高護病比。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:19.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:29.937000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下部長，你應該知道現行的法律秩序就是以全日平均護病比來規範護理人員的人力，這裡有3個數字，分別是9、12跟15，請問一下部長，對這組數字滿意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:35.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:10:46.188000+08:00","text":"這個是在設置標準裡頭，但是我們在113年有開始設定三班護病比的目標，才會導入三班護病比的獎勵計畫。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:10:46.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:11:00.300000+08:00","text":"部長，你講到三班護病比就講到我們護理人員胸口永遠的痛，因為三班護病比有9個數字，這9個數字，部長，你還記得是什麼時候公告的嗎？","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:11:01.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:11:10.729000+08:00","text":"這個是在113年大家討論出來作為一個目標，作為我們對於三班護病比獎勵達標的標準。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:11:11.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:11:18.534000+08:00","text":"三班護病比有9個數字，這9個數字是在2024年1月26號公告的。對，113年。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:11:18.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:11:47.493000+08:00","text":"對，就是如同你說的113年，這個三班護病比公告至今已經超過兩年了，但是都還沒有入法，所以我剛剛才說這是我們護理人員胸口永遠的痛，因為一直在期待我們大有為的政府、有為有守的衛福部能夠趕快加緊地幫我們推出三班護病比入法，結果沒有看到有為的政府幫我們推動，反而是我們台灣民眾黨完全已經等不及了，在去年12月12號時就把三班護病比入法的條文逕付二讀。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:11:47.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:02.168000+08:00","text":"不過跟委員說明，它的達標率已經在提升，在113年起始的時候，醫學中心能夠達標的大概只有26%，現在已經到70%可以達標，所以其實在醫學中心……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:02.168000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:03.168000+08:00","text":"那我想請問一下部長，達標的數字是從那邊來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:02.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:08.052000+08:00","text":"如果達標的數字是由醫院自填，請問你覺得會不會失真而欠缺公信力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:08.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:23.363000+08:00","text":"好，那我現在請問一下部長，顯然你對這組數字9、12、15是不滿意的，所以你才提到三班護病比的9個數字，我們先解決現行的法律秩序，再展望未來護理人員最引頸期待的三班護病比。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:24.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:30.968000+08:00","text":"請問一下部長有掌握醫院違反全日平均護病比的開罰資料嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:30.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:43.777000+08:00","text":"我們過去三班護病比是這樣，一方面是設置標準的要求，那個是全日護病比，三班護病比我們是按照目標來做獎勵，但是事實上護理的……","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:43.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:12:47.901000+08:00","text":"部長，我是在講全日平均護病比的開罰資料，你有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:12:47.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:16.728000+08:00","text":"如果你沒有掌握沒有關係，本辦在我2月3號就職，2月11號就去函問衛福部，請衛福部給我們醫院違反全日平均護病比的開罰資料，但是衛福部說3月25號才能給我們，我這邊就想請教卓院長，卓院長不是號稱他手下都是行動內閣，怎麼會讓我們要一個資料感覺需要曠日廢時的等待，等待5個禮拜，有一點被拖拖拉拉的感覺。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:17.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:29.673000+08:00","text":"其實你這樣一個拖拖拉拉的動作是有一點小打臉你的長官，他是行動內閣，你展現出來的是烏龜內閣、螞蟻內閣、蝸牛內閣，我覺得這樣可能會對卓院長很難交代吧！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:30.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:36.095000+08:00","text":"好，那全日平均護病比沒關係，因為你們要提供資料，5個禮拜、3月25號眼見也趕快要……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:36.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:49.260000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，因為全日護病比是設在設置標準，它的處分單位是在地方政府，所以可能我們是需要跟地方衛生局去蒐集。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:49.260000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:50.360000+08:00","text":"地方的衛生局嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:50.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:54.202000+08:00","text":"那這些資料……其實今天身為一個有監督角色的衛福部，你早就應該掌握這些資料。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:54.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:13:58.483000+08:00","text":"我們會來強化，我請同仁加速請衛生局趕快提供。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:13:59.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:05.807000+08:00","text":"對，不是立法委員問你，你才掌握這些資料，而是你早就應該掌握這些資料，然後掌握了之後，你要思考如何加以改善。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:06.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:13.790000+08:00","text":"好，說起全日平均護病比的數字，我想衛福部每個月都有定期公告，這些公告的數字哪裡來的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:13.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:20.993000+08:00","text":"就如同我剛剛說是醫院自填的，請問一下醫院自填會不會有失真、欠缺公信力的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:20.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:28.256000+08:00","text":"所以這邊我們想要請部長可不可以建立查核醫院所填報過來的護病比資料？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:28.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:40.299000+08:00","text":"我們現在已經有這個機制，一個就是在護理爭議平臺提出，我們也會處理，這個是屬於比較被動式的……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:40.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:41.299000+08:00","text":"不是，這是你們……我現在在問的是你們的查核機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:40.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:14:51.643000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們有主動式的，因為我們有三班護病比的獎勵，所以我們就會去查核是不是真的有這樣達標的情形，我們是有查核的機制。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:14:52.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:01.288000+08:00","text":"好，你們的查核機制其實都是來自於醫院的自填，我現在是希望能夠有一個客觀、不失真、具有公信力的……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:01.288000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:02.389000+08:00","text":"我們的行政單位會去抽查。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:02.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:09.293000+08:00","text":"好，我們來講毒河的第二個毒性物質──高護病比，請問一下三班護病比什麼時候要入法？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:09.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:11.354000+08:00","text":"我們會朝這個方向努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:11.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:32.185000+08:00","text":"我們不期待現在、立刻、馬上，台灣民眾黨的版本已經在去年12月12號逕付二讀，我們不期待現在、立刻、馬上，但我們期待的是押一個日期，讓我們護理人員能夠望梅止渴，有一個繼續往前動的動力，也不要讓職場的人力越流失越多。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:34.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:46.404000+08:00","text":"我記得賴清德總統在總統大選之前曾經說三班護病比兩年入法，當時的時間點是2023年9月，現在兩年已經過去，顯然這張支票已經跳票了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:47.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:15:57.047000+08:00","text":"當時時任衛福部部長，也就是薛瑞元部長，他也在總統大選前說護病比兩年會入法，但選後再去問他，他就說沒有規劃。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:15:57.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:02.568000+08:00","text":"這感覺就很像在欺騙護理人員的感情，選前山盟海誓，選後誤會一場，政府對我們的承諾……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:04.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:15.004000+08:00","text":"委員，容許我一小段跟你回應，很感謝也很尊敬委員對護理人員在專業上給他們很多的建議，也給我們很多的指導。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:15.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:39.627000+08:00","text":"從2008年開始，南丁格爾獎的舉辦……也就是我參與慈月基金會的南丁格爾獎，所以我跟你們是一樣的，我現在要跟大家講的是，三班護病比我們現在做的是先把護理人員的執登率提高，其中還有一個方法，我們希望考用的時候能夠比較合於實際，讓考試之後的人能夠增加。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:41.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:45.349000+08:00","text":"部長，請給我一個三班護病比入法的時程，我需要一個具體時程，不用現在、立刻、馬上，但我希望能夠讓我們望梅止渴押一個日期。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:45.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:57.091000+08:00","text":"部長不好意思，因為你們都文質彬彬，語速太慢，我只剩下17分鐘，後面還有一個豐富的困境展現要呈現在大家眼前……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:57.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:59.512000+08:00","text":"關於三班護病比我們現在是獎勵先行，我們會逐步來推動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:16:59.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:16:59.712000+08:00","text":"我想就如同……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:00.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:04.118000+08:00","text":"推動的過程就是先把執登的人員再往上提高。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:04.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:11.827000+08:00","text":"衛福部或者是行政院對三班護病比的態度就是研議、研議、再研議，我們護理人員就是等待、等待、再等待……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:12.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:12.708000+08:00","text":"確實有獎勵的方式出來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:12.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:14.591000+08:00","text":"已經在提高了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:14.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:19.695000+08:00","text":"在這種情況之下，橫批是不是要寫個「衛福部無能」五個字，這才能反映出我們護理人員的心聲。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:19.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:23.237000+08:00","text":"不會、不會，獎勵的方式已經出來了，現在要把人數提高到一定程度再來處理。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:23.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:30.622000+08:00","text":"獎勵是一個方式，但不是最好的方式，最好的方式是要開罰，又或者是說要雙管齊下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:30.622000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:17:35.746000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨已經針對三班護病比提出修法，而且我們還把罰則增加，因為現行的罰則違反三班護病比是罰1到5萬，但是我們覺得壓榨護理人力卻只開罰1到5萬太少了，所以我們把罰則提升為5到50萬，請問部長覺得如何？","quality":0.149},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:17:35.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:06.429000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提過，要入法之前應該先把怎麼入法釐清楚，我們睽諸全世界，很難有一個固定的數字……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:06.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:07.429000+08:00","text":"入法不就是兩年前開出來的支票嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:07.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:08.429000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這兩年都沒有處理呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:06.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:26.122000+08:00","text":"很難有固定的數字來做處分，因為所有醫院的屬性、照護的強度是不一樣的，所以要入法、要處分必須要有一個明確的法律。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:26.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:36.290000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我知道，三班護病比入法的數字顯然我們今天沒有辦法追問出來，因為衛福部永遠都是在研議，所以我們進入護理職場這條毒河的第二個毒性物質──低薪，請問一下部長，你知道我們的總統曾經說過新進護理人員的薪水有5萬嗎？","quality":0.404},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:37.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:40.974000+08:00","text":"請問你覺得新進護士的薪水有5萬嗎？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:43.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:45.704000+08:00","text":"應該要看各個層級跟場域不同，因為在診所跟醫院有不同的落差。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:45.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:52.225000+08:00","text":"我想這個薪水大概夢裡才有，夢裡才有5萬！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:18:54.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:18:59.727000+08:00","text":"但林靜儀次長又說醫事人員不能作夢，現在可能連夢裡5萬也沒有了。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:00.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:12.852000+08:00","text":"這個5萬的說法完全被審計部的決算報告打臉，因為審計部的決算報告提出來說新進護理人員的月投保薪資只有3.8萬，所以打臉了。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:13.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:20.376000+08:00","text":"你的學長邱泰源部長說護理人員的薪水有7萬，請問一下部長，護理人員的薪水有7萬嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:20.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:21.617000+08:00","text":"你的版本是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:21.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:32.503000+08:00","text":"我們看到5萬、7萬，數字眼花撩亂，數字看起來讓人很嚮往、很羨慕，總統還說很羨慕醫護人員，但我們局內人其實是苦不堪言！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:34.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:50.963000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，您的簡報裡面出現的數字主要是來自於醫院……我們部裡面有一個平臺，讓醫院要求人的時候、要招募護理人員的時候，會把它的薪資條件po在上面，大家看到這個數字……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:51.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:54.885000+08:00","text":"因為是自填的，自填的就會有失真的狀況，邱泰源部長也道歉了，這些數字失真，因為來自於自填，所以他道歉了。","quality":0.422},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:19:55.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:19:59.227000+08:00","text":"我們不要一個會道歉的衛福部，我們要一個會做事的衛福部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:00.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:02.569000+08:00","text":"我們來討論低薪的問題如何解決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:02.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:27.070000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長有提到護理費，護理費有兩個問題：第一個問題是太低；第二個問題是健保署給付護理費給醫院，至於醫院有沒有把護理費的點值回饋到護理人員的身上卻無從得知，所以我們想要請部長能夠建立一個監督醫院有把護理費回歸到護理人員薪水上的制度，部長，請問可以嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:27.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:28.671000+08:00","text":"有，去年就開始做了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:29.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:39.458000+08:00","text":"去年我們在調升護理費的時候就有一個條件，就是護理人員的薪給、投保薪資要提升，所以我們已經建立這個機制了。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:39.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:50.967000+08:00","text":"要公開透明，因為我們護理界19萬大軍完全都覺得薪水的發放是一個黑箱，所以可能要公開透明、要揭示、要公告、要做好教育的宣傳。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:50.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:20:54.949000+08:00","text":"有，我們從去年開始調的護理費部分，包含急診的護理費、提升一般病房的護理費，調的時候都會要求要搭配薪資的調整。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:20:54.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:08.612000+08:00","text":"你現在在講的是數字過低，對於數字過低的問題，我有看到衛福部這幾年的努力，數字確實有微幅調整，但是護理費回歸到護理人員的身上有沒有公開透明的機制？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:21:09.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:16.234000+08:00","text":"再來，我也有看到，這裡要肯定一下衛福部，就是我看到對於低薪這個問題，近年有發一些獎勵金。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:21:17.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:23.161000+08:00","text":"獎勵金大致有3個：一個是三班護病比達標的獎勵金，一個是夜班津貼，一個是春節獎勵金。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:21:24.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:36.757000+08:00","text":"但是其實這些獎勵金有幾個缺點：第一個缺點是杯水車薪；第二個缺點是延遲發放；第三個缺點一樣，如同我剛剛對護理費所提出來的批評指教，就是發放的方式不公開透明。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:21:38.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:54.028000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道三班護病比編列的預算去年是16億，第一年發出5.2億，事實上，後來的資料慢慢地揭曉，其實醫院拿到三班護病比的達標金額，有些只拿到五千多塊、一千多塊、八百多塊，還有195塊的。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:21:54.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:21:57.430000+08:00","text":"你們發給醫院三班護病比達標的獎勵金只有195塊，可能連一個便當都買不起，請問這如何能夠達到獎勵的效果呢？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:06.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:15.902000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個是一個奇怪的outlier，應該這麼講，因為我們有兩筆錢、一筆是夜班津貼……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:15.902000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:16.902000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:16.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:19.544000+08:00","text":"夜班津貼是上班就有，所以不會出現這個數字。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:19.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:22.226000+08:00","text":"我講的是三班護病比的獎勵金。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:23.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:34.035000+08:00","text":"第二個，三班護病比的獎勵是根據收治病人的人數、天數去乘以一個百分比出來，所以這幾家醫院我都看過，特別去查過，它可能只有1床……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:34.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:36.676000+08:00","text":"你們這些資料都是來自於院方自填，自填的方式就容易失真而沒有客觀……","quality":0.367},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:36.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:43.119000+08:00","text":"它只有1床，收治了1個病人，所以加乘之後的百分比只能這樣，所以我們現在已經重新檢討……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:43.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:46.401000+08:00","text":"所以現在我們進入第二個題目……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:46.401000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:47.401000+08:00","text":"對於很低床數、收治很少的，就把它排除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:47.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:50.703000+08:00","text":"第二個題目是關於獎勵金延遲發放的問題。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:50.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:22:58.867000+08:00","text":"去年11、12月應該發的，到現在還沒有發放，目前已經進入3月、4月了，所以請衛福部在獎勵金的發放上能夠快一點。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:22:59.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:23:12.359000+08:00","text":"至於你說的夜班津貼是在次次月的時候發放，你們發給醫院，醫院再發給護理人員，護理人員會經過一個還滿漫長的等待，所以衛福部能不能夠監督，針對夜班獎勵金再加強發放的速度？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:23:12.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:23:21.667000+08:00","text":"不會，跟委員說明，因為它現在已經變成是一個常規，都是在次月的20號連同健保申報的時候會一起申報下來，然後就會下去，所以每一個月、每一個月都在發。","quality":0.635},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:23:22.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:23:29.053000+08:00","text":"我知道你們是次次月，但是你們發給醫院，醫院什麼時候發給護理人員，這一段再請衛福部能夠來監督。嗯。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:23:30.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:23:32.275000+08:00","text":"接下來，獎勵金有一些黑歷史。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:23:32.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:23:40.482000+08:00","text":"以前的獎勵金創造了黑歷史，讓人家現在聽到「獎勵金」3個字就敬而畏之，怎麼說敬而畏之呢？","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:23:40.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:00.157000+08:00","text":"獎勵金沒有專款專用，拿去買便當、做護士服、聚餐、買辦公室的設備，所以如果衛福部要發放獎勵金的話，請要有一個公開透明的機制，機制建立出來，讓我們知道獎勵金的流向，可能護理人員才能夠安心，也能夠取信於護理人員。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:00.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:04.720000+08:00","text":"用途的部分，我們絕對都是用在護理人員身上，所以請委員放心，我們會讓……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:04.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:08.082000+08:00","text":"你們都是發問卷，問醫院用到哪邊去……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:08.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:09.082000+08:00","text":"如果有任何沒有按照這個規範的，我們一定嚴查、嚴罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:08.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:14.606000+08:00","text":"答案也是來自於醫院，我們就是質疑醫院會不會有失真、欠缺公信力的回答。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:19.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:34.381000+08:00","text":"另外去年健保署有發出一個風向，就是醫事人員的月投保薪資在醫院不能夠低於最低工資的2倍、在診所不能夠低於1.5倍，如果低於這樣的數字，就不能夠作為健保特約醫院續約的要件。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:35.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:39.664000+08:00","text":"請問您是當時的署長嗎？是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:39.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:51.071000+08:00","text":"所以這個就是當初貴署放出來的風向，這當然引起基層很大的喝彩，我給你一個讚，我知道你可能也有承受來自醫院的壓力，所以這個最後就無疾而終了。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:51.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:24:56.855000+08:00","text":"現在您從署長提升到部長的位置，請問有換了位置、換了腦袋嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:24:56.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:00.117000+08:00","text":"現在還是想要主張這樣一個想法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:00.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:06.620000+08:00","text":"我們還是希望朝這個方向來努力，保障我們護理人員最基本的薪資。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:06.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:15.703000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是具體的方案要出來，否則再多的承諾聽起來都是空話；護理人員聽起來，到最後夢醒時分，完全就是一場遊戲一場夢的感覺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:15.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:15.923000+08:00","text":"我們會持續來溝通，考量到……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:19.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:27.948000+08:00","text":"當然高薪需要經費的來源，財源很重要，財源有來自於健保、來自於公務預算、來自於基金，就是這樣。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:29.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:52+08:00","text":"衛福部下面有很多基金，而我也曾經寫過一個投書，就是為護理設置基金來籌措人力的完整性，長照的人力也是用基金的方式來支應，所以我們有沒有可能來設置一個護理人力的基金？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:52.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:54.182000+08:00","text":"請帶回去思考，不用現在回答我。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:54.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:58.106000+08:00","text":"我們現在進入毒河的第三項毒性物質，有請勞動部長洪申翰。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-10T10:25:58.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:25:58.326000+08:00","text":"麻煩請勞動部長備詢。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:26:10.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:26:29.249000+08:00","text":"部長請慢走沒關係，我先鋪陳一下劇情，因為時間真的非常有限，我們護理人員勞動條件非常的差，關於勞動條件很差的態樣，我自己羅列了八大罪狀，但是不只這八大，時間有限，我只羅列了八大罪狀，我想請問勞動部長，對於護理人員勞動困境的情形你有掌握嗎？","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:26:29.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:26:46.890000+08:00","text":"我先給你一個提示，就是護理人員有超時工作的現象，比比皆是，你應該了解；超時工作又沒有拿到加班費，你應該有所掌握，請問部長有掌握護理界所謂隱形工時的問題嗎？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:26:46.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:26:50.093000+08:00","text":"有，因為我們跟一些醫療業跟護理的工會也有滿多的互動，有聽過他們的說明，有聽他們提過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:26:50.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:26:56.017000+08:00","text":"好，請問一下，可不可以用行政函釋的方式把隱形工時列為工時？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:27:07.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:27:11.051000+08:00","text":"這部分我們可以找醫療界來討論一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:27:11.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:27:13.212000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長願意討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:27:13.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:27:43.687000+08:00","text":"除此之外，我這邊也肯定勞動部跟衛福部去年的時候，有把護理人員參與繼續教育積分課程的時間列為工時，有用函釋的方式來做處理，對此，護理人員非常的肯定，但是有些醫院並沒有按照這個函釋的方式去處理，就是當護理人員想要把這段時間列為工時，或者是想請公假的時候，醫院並沒有主動的協助或接受，所以勞動部針對這一點是不是能夠將其納入勞檢的項目？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:27:47.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:28:12.241000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實我們去年針對醫院有一些違反勞基法的狀況，修了違反勞動基準法裁處罰鍰共通性原則，其中加重處分的部分，有把醫學中心跟區域醫院都放進去，所以我想該處罰的、該檢查的，我們都願意來處理。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:28:12.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:28:13.682000+08:00","text":"好，OK，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:28:14.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:28:35.117000+08:00","text":"部長知道我們護理人員整天工作下來，不僅勞動條件差，中午想吃飯，休息時間只有30分鐘，想享受都享受不到，想吃飯都吃不到，只能夠喝珍珠奶茶，官員喝的是有為有守的珍珠奶茶，我們護理界喝的是有苦有酸的珍珠奶茶，喝的是辛酸，吃的是苦楚。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:28:36.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:28:42.444000+08:00","text":"請問一下，關於休息時間看得到吃不到的問題，部長有打算怎麼處理嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:28:44.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:28:49.030000+08:00","text":"勞基法有規定工作4小時要休息30分鐘，委員你講的是這個部分，對不對？對。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:28:51.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:03.254000+08:00","text":"護理人員會覺得在這休息的30分鐘內，他們其實還是一個stand by的狀況，沒有辦法真的全心放鬆的休息，的確這個部分是勞基母法裡面訂的，不過……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:04.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:06.175000+08:00","text":"部長，所以就是答應我要加強取締……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:08.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:09.215000+08:00","text":"委員可以聽我說明嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:09.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:11.256000+08:00","text":"可以，但是我只剩4分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:11.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:27.581000+08:00","text":"的確，針對工作4小時要休息30分鐘的規定，在不同的業別會有不太一樣的情境需求，比方說在護理業，大家會覺得休息這30分鐘，其實無法真的全心的休息，可是在其他某一些業別，沒有這樣的需要……","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:27.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:31.423000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，法律既然已經規定了，就加強取締。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:31.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:29:57.219000+08:00","text":"再來，我們護理界還有所謂花花班的問題，換班的間隔少於11個小時，除此之外，醫院雇主為了彈性運用人力，所以想了一些光怪陸離的方式，分別是待命、借休跟跨科調動，我這邊想請問一下，可不可以提出一個函釋，把在家待命的時間、在醫院待命的時間列為工時，因為沒有列為工時，護理人員就是在那邊苦等。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:29:57.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:30:08.268000+08:00","text":"再來，另外一個光怪陸離的手段就是借休，所謂的借休就是護理人員從早上8點上班到4點，可能在中午12點就會被請回家，跟你說：你先回家休息，因為我們沒病人了！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:30:08.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:30:17.896000+08:00","text":"這個叫做借休，這個時間不是護理人員平白享受，日後護理人員要把借休這4小時還給醫院，請問這個有沒有違反勞基法？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:30:19.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:30:33.848000+08:00","text":"我跟委員說明，其實委員現在提到的，不管是一些工時的問題跟休息的問題，我認為我們其實都願意在今天質詢之後來跟護理界做一點討論，就是說目前遇到哪些樣態，也跟醫院一起來討論。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:30:37.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:30:43.913000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長願意跟我們討論，那我先把我列的第八罪狀講完，我們的護理界有一個陋習叫做跨科調動，因為護理人力缺乏，所以A單位缺人，就調B單位的人去。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:30:44.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:30:59.663000+08:00","text":"在我們護理界曾經發生過一個悲劇，就是在2011年的時候有一個護理師在他新到任8天以內被從A單位調到B單位，再從B單位調到C單位，最後不堪壓力而燒炭自殺，這是我們護理界的悲劇，也是我們胸口的痛。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:00.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:31:07.166000+08:00","text":"請問勞動部有沒有掌握對跨科調動這件事的開罰數據？","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:07.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:31:10.248000+08:00","text":"我可能還要再調一下數據，但是我想跨科調動的問題……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳：那我跟部長講","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:10.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:31:11.989000+08:00","text":"你永遠調不到數據，因為跨科調動是違法的事，並沒有罰則，所以請部長這邊能夠來協助推動違法跨科調動的罰則。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:24.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:31:34.050000+08:00","text":"委員，這個部分我們需要跟衛福部這邊討論一下，因為護理業內有一些專業的樣態的確是需要跟衛福部討論。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:34.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:31:35.050000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，你願意敞開心胸來討論，我覺得是一種非常好的態度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:31:34.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:01.609000+08:00","text":"好，剛剛部長一直提到一個通報平臺，上這個通報平臺申訴的有4,000人，違反勞基法的有2,000件，最後開罰的是500件，裁罰率是16%，當然勞動部這邊有一些裁罰的統計，目前查到在過去5年有六百多件，那我想這只是冰山一角，可能還有很多黑數，也期待部長這邊儘量在勞檢的時候雷厲風行，然後能夠加強取締。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:02.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:07.372000+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊要請問，除了專案勞檢之外，能不能再擴大醫院的專案勞檢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:07.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:07.552000+08:00","text":"這是我們的訴求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:16.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:21.977000+08:00","text":"你們這些醫事人員的小腦袋以為我們按了按鈕，問題就能夠全部解決了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:22.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:39.089000+08:00","text":"但我覺得衛福部沒有按按鈕，而是對於護理勞動權益的改善按兵不動，我這邊列出4顆按鈕，只要大膽按下去，我想問題可以獲得某個程度的緩解，第一個是提供資料；第二個是建立機制；第三個是給行政函釋；第四個是擴大勞檢。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:40.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:52.379000+08:00","text":"第一個就是勞動部跟衛福部要提供資料，請衛福部給我們全日平均護病比的開罰資料，還有可不可以給我們依月投保薪資作為依據的護理人員平均薪資？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:52.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:55.942000+08:00","text":"因為我們想知道護理人員的薪水到底是多少，是5萬嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:56.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:56.922000+08:00","text":"是7萬嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:56.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:32:57.703000+08:00","text":"還是其他的數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:32:59.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:06.368000+08:00","text":"其次是建立機制，就是護病比查核的機制，不要讓醫院隨口說了算；請建立護理費、獎勵金的公開透明機制。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:07.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:15.734000+08:00","text":"行政函釋就是請針對隱形工時，就是在家待命、在醫院待命的工時都列為真正可以拿到薪水的工時。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:15.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:18.536000+08:00","text":"最後就是我剛剛跟部長所說的擴大專案勞檢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:18.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:18.637000+08:00","text":"以上質詢，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:19.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:21.994143+08:00","text":"謝謝邱委員的寶貴意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:22.294143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:29.151286+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-10T10:33:29.451286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-10T10:33:35.451286+08:00","text":"接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢，丁學忠委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}