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那我們今天的議程是繼續審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案"},{"start":1897.642,"end":1913.308,"text":"包括委員葛如君等37人委員邱若驊等17人委員羅廷惟等17人委員萬美玲等18人委員徐宇貞等20人委員張家俊等21人委員林倩琦等21人你去人工智慧基本法草案"},{"start":1914.048,"end":1923.462,"text":"那也審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案呢包括委員邱怡穎等20人委員吳宗憲等17人委員賴世寶等28人委員楊瓊英等26人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1930.091,"end":1958.862,"text":"以及委員許智協等27人委員林一錦等27人擬據人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨黨團擬據的是人工智慧發展及管理條例草案一案首先再介紹在場委員柯志恩委員羅廷偉委員林一錦召委尹秀寶委員"},{"start":1961.769,"end":1975.367,"text":"郭玉琴委員范雲委員劉書斌委員謝榮介委員那我們其次介紹與會官員"},{"start":1978.135,"end":2004.102,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文主委謝謝吳主委副主任委員陳秉宇副主委謝謝副主委數位發展部部長黃燕南部長黃部長謝謝部長我們教育也有教育部資訊及科技教育師師長吳穎田師長謝謝行政院教育科學文化處參議謝聖龍參議"},{"start":2007.06,"end":2018.35,"text":"財政部複稅署專門委員劉旭峰專委法務部汪南軍參事經濟部產業技術師專門委員張明芳專委謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師專門委員林永裕專委勞動條件及就業平等師專委侯松炎專委勞動法務司專門委員林家士專委"},{"start":2034.271,"end":2038.584,"text":"勞動關係師也有多位同仁出席文化部綜合規劃師副司長陳怡靜"},{"start":2041.141,"end":2056.248,"text":"副市長謝謝行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員陳怡君陳專委行政院人事行政總處主編人力處專門委員張雅慧專委謝謝個人資料保護委員會籌備處隱私科技組組長林益成林組長謝謝考選部參研室研究委員黃立賢謝謝考選部綜合計畫師專門委員黃于儒專委"},{"start":2070.475,"end":2075.497,"text":"考選部高樸考試司專門委員楊文怡專委 謝謝權敘部法規司專門委員黃家惠專委 謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修專委"},{"start":2086.291,"end":2106.02,"text":"那也非常感謝可以見得我們今天人工智慧基本法草案橫跨的範圍以及AI會影響的範圍非常的廣也非常感謝我們的行政單位各處是機關的同仁還有這個主管還有相關的官員來列席那我們也介紹我們的張雅玲委員還有徐宇貞委員洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2119.997,"end":2132.59,"text":"那我們本日不處理臨時提案因為我們今天提案數非常的多那我們本案已於114年5月14日詢答完畢那有新增新增不好意思"},{"start":2134.383,"end":2153.671,"text":"抱歉新增委員邱益穎等七個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查那我們現在審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2162.406,"end":2183.515,"text":"委員葛如君等三十七人委員邱若驊等十七人委員羅廷華等十七人委員魏美玲等十八人委員徐宇臻等二十人委員張家俊等二十一人委員林佳琦等二十三人委員邱盈盈等二十人委員吳宗憲等十七人委員賴中寶等二十八人委員楊承英等二十六人"},{"start":2183.955,"end":2196.157,"text":"委員許智傑等27人委員林依謙等26人女巨人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨黨團女巨人工智慧發展及管理條例等現在條文都照表"},{"start":2199.13,"end":2222.922,"text":"委員內事保黨28人提案第一張總則台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一張總則委員葛樂軍等37人提案為建設為建設出國家促進人工智慧研發與人工智慧產業發展新建國人工智慧安全應用環境努使數位平權保障人民基本權利"},{"start":2223.848,"end":2229.352,"text":"非常感謝我們今天有教育文化委員會的委員也有交通文化交通委員會的委員那我們也有內政部內政委員會的委員我們這個"},{"start":2249.228,"end":2266.648,"text":"這個法案呢大家真的是非常的期待我們公聽會的時候呢也各界也都希望我們能夠早一點有人工智慧的相關的方針那我們就先針對法案名稱做主條我們從法案名稱來做討論好法案名稱主席不好意思"},{"start":2268.873,"end":2289.041,"text":"我是想說是不是先來廣泛討論好不好先進行廣泛討論我覺得這部分不需要廣泛討論因為這個人工基本法已經有公聽會然後我們已經審了也都做過答詢了我不曉得廣泛還要廣泛討論些什麼我覺得就進入這些逐條的一個方式了"},{"start":2289.341,"end":2304.509,"text":"因為我們這個不是臨時的這很久就以來我們已經經過了多少次的質詢經過多少次的一個公聽我想大家都有個共識而且最重要是這麼多委員都有不同的一個版本我個人認為與其與其這個廣泛討論呢"},{"start":2306.69,"end":2329.723,"text":"我現在真的到至今為止我沒有看到術法部提出任何的這些的意見或者是任何的一個想法反而是我所看到的是國科會過去以來所擬定的這些的一個草案所以說呢再浩下去的話我真的覺得有愧於這個不管是左內閣或是賴總統對於我們AI這麼樣的一個重視所以大體討論已經是在質詢的時候都已經"},{"start":2335.906,"end":2340.352,"text":"問過了 而且問過這個組委了所以我個人建議是應該就直接進入我們組條的討論了"},{"start":2344.125,"end":2371.819,"text":"主席不好意思喔因為基本上是目前我們今天排審可是沒有院版那所以沒有院版的話那我覺得可能每個委員對於今天沒有院版的審查可能會有比較相對不同的意見那所以我覺得對於今天要不要審就是要進入那個審查人工基本智慧法的這個過程裡頭我覺得還是需要讓大家廣泛討論然後"},{"start":2373.56,"end":2394.119,"text":"說出對於審這個法的一些看法那我覺得因為這個程序其實我覺得也某程度也是可以必要存在那而且我覺得也不只應該是也不只我的主張啊不然也看看問他其他委員的意見那我想說也請主席參採我的意見說讓我們先廣泛討論一下好 張艾玲委員 謝謝"},{"start":2397.062,"end":2426.029,"text":"好 我也希望可以來進行這個大體討論喔最主要是因為說其實我們有收到相當多兒少團體對於這一部法包含我之前在質詢的時候一直都非常關心私底下一直不停地找大家來討論就是大家對於這個法目前對於未成年兒少的相對的保護而且我們過去政府到底有沒有做一些相關的研究其實大家是有相當多的質疑所以我希望在今天可以有個大體討論的時候我們可以再精確的去了解那我們的部會是不是也可以再多做一點說明讓我們的這些相關兒少團體可以更安心"},{"start":2427.829,"end":2446.994,"text":"好 劉書斌委員然後再來洪孟凱委員 范雲委員 謝謝好 謝謝主席關於人工智慧的相關法令它的確已經是我雖然是大概三月才進來但是我已經看到的是說至少我們在公聽會還有包括的是其他的相關會議當中包括連交通委員會都已經審查了很多次"},{"start":2447.674,"end":2465.778,"text":"那這個地方但是我也覺得說也許在大體討論也許不用大體討論但是可以先請主管機關來說明它為什麼沒有一個願版的這個地方但是我們知道在國科會它事實上有它的一個不版出來這個原因大概說字一下也許就可以大概這樣說把這個流程還包括"},{"start":2465.998,"end":2466.198,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 謝謝"},{"start":2488.624,"end":2506.229,"text":"黃孟愷委員不好意思大家都已經發言了其實這不就也是廣泛討論的一環嗎我們現在在討論是廣泛討論要不要廣泛討論不覺得很奇怪嗎其實我覺得態度很明確啦14個委員都有版本"},{"start":2506.989,"end":2524.52,"text":"我們從2024年2月1號進入到立法院教育委員會的時候那時候就已經講說人工智慧基本法人工智慧是未來的趨勢現在進行是還不知道未來趨勢現在人工智慧已經在我們的各行各業了嘛那2024年2月1號那個時候我們才看到歐盟剛剛"},{"start":2525.781,"end":2549.911,"text":"創立這樣的一個相關法令我們也想是說台灣應該後發先至台灣應該我們是科技王國啊所以照理講我們也應該要並駕齊驅啊但是過了一年半了三個會期了現在等於是三個會期的第三會期的尾端還沒有出來我們自己的院版14個委員都有版本啊那我們現在其實要問的是行政院什麼時候有版本出來嗎那今天速發布"},{"start":2551.465,"end":2567.431,"text":"給我們的書面報告裡面還是把過去的歷史嚴格脈絡再講一次啊但最重要的是速發部現在你被行政院指定為主管機關那你們什麼時候會把版本拿出來這才是重點啊"},{"start":2568.553,"end":2597.285,"text":"所以如果說我們14個委員不分藍綠草野喔藍白綠都有委員都有版本喔所以這不是單一委員這不是在野黨委員的意見這也不是執行黨委員的意見是三黨的共識都有黨團版都有委員版那如果說這樣的情況下速發部身為主管機關都還不願意把版本拿出來那這樣子我們要怎麼審我們可以等一個會期可以等兩個會期但是現在三個會期等了"},{"start":2598.424,"end":2617.82,"text":"那我們還要等多久速發部是不是等一下部長你也明確的講什麼時候院版可以出來那我們現在可以今天先做主條我們討論 討論完之後有爭議的地方可以先做保留但是等速發部院的版本一起出來朝野協商的時候可以再共同討論啊"},{"start":2618.661,"end":2644.408,"text":"但如果說你速發部一樣這樣的態度的話你連最基本的待時間都不願意告訴我們的話那這樣國人沒有辦法無止盡的等下去啊AI是一步千里每天都有不同的科技變化運用現在只是基本法基本法通過之後才會有各行各業的相對應用法那如果我們連基本法都搞不定的話我們怎麼樣告訴國人是說我們是重視AI的不要忘記這個內閣叫做AI內閣"},{"start":2647.15,"end":2647.53,"text":"這個內閣叫做AI內閣"},{"start":2649.551,"end":2678.639,"text":"好不好 語重心長今天是藍綠白委員都希望有一部人工智慧基本法那什麼時候行政部門拿出院版 謝謝好 謝謝我們請范瑩委員 謝謝我想大家都非常的重視AI相關的規範跟發展那我上一屆在立法院也有成立一個數位的委員會那就是在關注那後來速發部成立之後那我的關注就是在監督教育這個部分"},{"start":2679.119,"end":2700.817,"text":"那林一金委員跟我我們在做國會外交的時候還特別去就是AI的教育做得很好的愛沙尼亞考察他怎麼樣從小學開始那教育部其實也在做相關的努力所以不是沒有一個基本法相關部會就沒有在做事那我想一金委員希望大體討論那跟我的想法很相近因為有幾個事情我們要釐清"},{"start":2701.698,"end":2721.713,"text":"第一個就是目前你看到委員的版本有人的主管機關寫速發布那這有包含國民黨的委員那國民黨委員自己也有人的主管機關寫國科會所以到底大方向上這件事情應該是速發布跟國科會那這個東西還沒有釐清第二個"},{"start":2722.353,"end":2741.036,"text":"我想最大的AI這個部分要不要有基本法的比較大的爭議就是在於說目前我們看到的方向有兩個完全不同的方向歐盟的方向還是美國的方向美國的方向是重產業發展希望監管密度低歐盟的方向是希望監管密度高"},{"start":2741.997,"end":2765.541,"text":"可是如果以歐盟為例的話美國還曾經規定就是說他在上次的預算審查就是各州不得立法因為他擔心規範不一引起產業的困境那歐盟他當時是要2025年2026年開始實行的時候就因為現在很多產業發現發展不一可能在競爭上會輸給像中國這種威權國家"},{"start":2768.442,"end":2795.14,"text":"所以產業希望部分的法規延後再實行而且歐盟也沒有辦法把相關的技術指引因為這個東西只是一個母法生產出來因為AI的環境變化太大了所以我想各位如果有看到最近的新聞的話英國現在就主張他要暫緩就是立這個法那希望能夠觀望情勢那我不知道我們這方面"},{"start":2795.66,"end":2820.92,"text":"就是說要做得比英國快然後要遇到就是說歐盟現在的困境還是我們相關的準備都好了那我至少知道行政院的各部會譬如說國科會有在做相關的研究教育部已經在做相關的部分那速發部是不是也有在做相關的大家希望要有的就是說基本的監管像我跟那個張雅琳委員一樣就是說我很關心的是"},{"start":2821.621,"end":2836.27,"text":"就是除了兒少之外跟婦女數位就是說相關的性別暴力跟歧視的部分那都有在相關的地方就是說就是監督那如果有這個基本法我們也會把相關的條文放入那但是我覺得就是"},{"start":2837.17,"end":2864.221,"text":"如果這個情勢就是速發部應該要對國際的情勢要有所掌握也希望能夠說明一下那到底就是這個情勢發展如何我們要走的是美國模式還有歐盟模式那歐盟跟英國現在遇到困境那我們應該要怎麼找台灣的方向那我想這個大體討論這幾個議題都必須要釐清否則我們進入到條文之後等一下也馬上主管機關就會遇到障礙嘛"},{"start":2864.941,"end":2880.901,"text":"然後你每一條都會爭辯的是一樣這個大方向的問題那最重要是說在這個時候就要定下去會不會對台灣的環境反而不利那美國他想要跟中國競爭那我們台灣的話其實到底要往哪個方向走我想這個部分都是大力討論應該要討論的 謝謝"},{"start":2882.423,"end":2895.667,"text":"好 謝謝 呃 李坤澄委員 然後待會陳秀寶委員 郭育群委員好像有舉手 郭育群委員然後 呃 李坤澄 對不起 不好意思李坤澄比較帥李坤澄委員 不好意思對對對 比較帥好 謝謝 都很帥"},{"start":2902.529,"end":2921.506,"text":"我是建議全案保留 因為我看各黨團以及委員之間雖然提案很多 但是方向都不太一致最主要是缺乏整體的政策的一個架構跟相關的責任劃分的一個共識沒有辦法形成"},{"start":2924.447,"end":2946.713,"text":"我先從主管機關這個設計來看啦這個大家都有明顯的這個歧義啦那葛如君委員 趙偉啊認為提案應該這個是博科會來作為主管機關但是我看國民黨楊瓊英委員 賴士寶這兩位資深委員啊他們主張是應該要數位發展部"},{"start":2947.293,"end":2962.315,"text":"那基本法是否要設主管機關 其實當然是可以討論的啦不過我看國民黨內部就有不同的意見那連主管機關的這樣的一個想法不同我們要怎麼去實質討論"},{"start":2963.777,"end":2991.335,"text":"那我是認為未來AI基本法到了實施階段一定會碰到很多的應用層面的問題那這個應該要由數位部來主政來處理相關爭議性的這些問題那處理爭議性的問題還有產業的發展那我認為國科會他只是主要負責相關的AI科學研究"},{"start":2992.476,"end":3016.323,"text":"國科會比較屬於智庫的一個性質真正要執行AI的基本法顯然是量能不足啦那其實我看同一政黨委員間也對主管機關沒有一致的共識所以我再次的建議全案是應該保留以上好 謝謝"},{"start":3023.365,"end":3035.959,"text":"其實今天有這麼多的委員提案就表示說大家都非常關心我們這整個AI未來的走向未來的發展但是其實現在目前世界各國對AI立法有相當大的歧見"},{"start":3036.98,"end":3053.272,"text":"尤其是最新的國際狀況是說英國為了觀察美國AI的政策走向它已經延後推動AI監管法案那本席在上次詢問的時候有提到美國對於原本歐盟以監管為方向的AI法規有提出批評認為這是限制AI的科技發展"},{"start":3054.053,"end":3078.573,"text":"所以說歐盟現在也已經延緩部分條文的實施這就是目前現實的狀況那我們既然我們要制定一個這樣子的基本法我們更應該要掌握目前國際間的局勢那以目前來講美國是有傾向發展市場的發展他們為了強化對中國的競爭力所以在這一塊呢他們是沒有幾乎是沒有限制但英國選擇是關懷美國避免他的政策落後"},{"start":3079.053,"end":3103.689,"text":"那歐盟這邊是維持現規制定者的這個角色但是在執行上呢不得不面對AI發展及國際的壓力這些轉變我們都應該納入我國這個AI基本法的考量的範疇那如果說我們就這樣子目前我們速發這邊也很嚴謹的想要就是說去長你一步比較全面比較周到的是這個相關的這些"},{"start":3104.729,"end":3120.825,"text":"基本法所以它還沒有嚴厲出來之前我們就我們現在這樣子的情況之下就要來討論我會覺得說是有點倉促而且到底AI基本法它需要嚴謹的去規範會不會變成是劃地制限"},{"start":3121.305,"end":3146.295,"text":"那太寬鬆的只有一個框架會不會這個保護的力道又不夠,不夠周延而且我要呼應一下剛才坤澤委員所講的主管機關如果行政院認為是應該在速發部比較合適那我們應該尊重行政院國科會這邊組織的是我國的這個基礎科研投入這些相關的資源就是發展各項科技的先期研究包括像半導體、人工智慧、太空科技等等"},{"start":3147.716,"end":3173.473,"text":"人工智慧基本法除了涉及科研之外還有產業的發展跟輔導資料的監管以及人工智慧產業的相關的風險的規範這些都需要跟產業接觸比較密切的速發部作為主管機關比較適合所以希望說我們今天對於AN基本法我們可以用更嚴謹的態度我們再來好好的討論能夠讓整個法規可以更全面以上"},{"start":3179.176,"end":3202.482,"text":"我想大家應該都知道這個從新聞上面已經看到就是美國的AI的政策走向尤其是在川普政府的他的政策走向其實當然也是全世界在觀察這個AI的走向的一個觀察的重點所以光是英國他們就已經確定要延後推動這個AI的監管的法案而且至少時程是延後一年以上"},{"start":3203.402,"end":3232.457,"text":"那我想我們這麼急促的要來通過這個AI的基本法其實光是主管機關主管機關的部分其實我看到很多的版本剛剛不只有速發部然後國科會那另外其實國科會我記得這個主委其實也之前也特別強調那你們是比較注重這個科研的部分其實在於速發部它其實是跟最後的一些產業還有一些所謂的這個辦理作業跟後續的一個條文的解釋其實是速發部應該是比較有彈性也比較適合"},{"start":3233.437,"end":3261.42,"text":"這我想這個應該國會的主委應該也同意啦但是我還看到這個其他的國民黨的版本或民眾黨的版本他們也有人說好像認為很中性的要有行政院來擔任這個中央的主管機關這看似很中性啦但是沒有一個配套跟一個執行的平台我個人認為這個光是主管機關要搞定是哪一個部會就已經有問題了我不知道為什麼今天要這麼急著要進入這個主條的部分那另外呢像是我們的AI"},{"start":3262.2,"end":3290.377,"text":"台灣的AI目前還是處於所謂的這個初期啦那我想這個資訊的治理其實也不容許有任何的一個模糊的空間那尤其是在現在這個中國對於我們台灣這個是無孔不入包含整個所有的這個AI國安的風險那我想在這個我們的條文當中其實也沒有特別針對這一塊來做一個審查的一個機制的一個就是描寫所以這個部分我個人認為今天如果進入主條會太過倉促啦"},{"start":3291.377,"end":3293.02,"text":"所以以上是我的意見"},{"start":3306.922,"end":3335.14,"text":"好 謝謝主席我個人在質詢的時候其實我對這個AI人工智慧基本法也是有期待的特別是在現在大家都在運用AI但是對一些少數民族弱勢的群體來講其實AI會創造很多的一個歧視那在全世界各國也都有這樣的先例所以有一個法能夠來管制約束是好的"},{"start":3335.74,"end":3363.494,"text":"但是呢縱觀我們看到的現在這些版本我覺得歧異性非常的大光是從大家所討論的主管機關那有人覺得國科會也有人覺得應該速發布那甚至也有覺得說不需要訂定主管機關那實際上像基本法因為它就是一個宣示性的一個法也不是組織法那當然"},{"start":3364.514,"end":3378.161,"text":"以我們原民會來講原住民來講有一個原基法那原基法的話它就是沒有定主管機關是以行政院或各縣市政府就是有一個推動的委員會那到底我們這個叫基本法"},{"start":3382.503,"end":3401.756,"text":"那他的體力應該要長怎麼樣我想這個部分可能有很多專業討論的一個空間那另外就是關於AI的定義那我個人也看了之後也是覺得因為AI的定義目前他也是需要被審慎"},{"start":3403.838,"end":3424.897,"text":"來討論因為全世界各國而且它是一個不斷在長大的定義所以我覺得這種部分可能都還有很多需要討論的空間所以我個人在這個地方也就是表達說希望能夠再爭取更多的討論希望保留的部分能夠先暫緩謝謝"},{"start":3427.099,"end":3445.361,"text":"好謝謝吳立華委員我們請吳佩儀委員關於AIA基本法我們在委員會其實討論很多次那我如果印象沒有記錯的話因為去年差不多這個時間應該是國科會就告訴我們說這個要抱怨了"},{"start":3446.082,"end":3470.621,"text":"對 所以為什麼今天桌上沒有院版其實我也是有同樣的困惑那我想也需要這個國科會跟訴發部也要好好的對大家來說明但是今天因為我仔細看了一下我們總共14個版本嘛那其中有13個版本包含昭偉跟盧君委員的版本都是基本法但是民眾黨黨團的版本看起來比較像是監管的作用法"},{"start":3471.101,"end":3490.955,"text":"所以倘若主席今天堅持要進入竹條的話因為基本法跟作用法這個方向完全是差太多你要怎麼樣去整合我想會有很大的問題所以我也是建議具體的建議說今天先保留那請等一下主席就針對基本法跟作用法今天版本差異這麼大的這個狀況也要做出採釋謝謝好"},{"start":3497.119,"end":3513.954,"text":"那我想既然大家都對於這個院版有點困惑我也說明一下其實最早AI基本法在賴清德總統擔任行政院院長的時候其實就想要來提出那在幾屆會期2018年許一仁委員也有提出草案"},{"start":3514.594,"end":3535.664,"text":"那其實一路下來我們不斷經歷了各界的會期我們這個會期也完整的完成了巡達以及公聽會各界也都表達非常多的期待那當然我想我們剛剛是有一定的共識是發現我們的行政院目前為止是院版還沒有提出但這一次的狀況比較特殊我們也要給我們的這個好球投手吳承文主委一個感謝當時確實準時的投出了國客會版本的院版"},{"start":3540.706,"end":3563.658,"text":"那只不過後來有這個所謂的226改弦議策之日所以現在換到了速發部那確實我們有不同黨派的委員也都不太確定現在行政院的版本在速發部這裡還是在行政院那院版為什麼沒有辦法提出那有各種不同的說法有說兩版基本上是差異不大等等所以我想我們是不是剛剛雖然有各種說法我們還是先聽一下這個我們先讓這個速發部部長來做個簡單回應 謝謝"},{"start":3572.042,"end":3593.6,"text":"謝謝召委和各位委員我們基本上就是在上次公聽會跟那個平台討論還有我們這個很多的會議之後呢我們發現就是各界意見還是非常的分歧所以第一個就是我們還在凝聚共識那另外當然也根據國際局勢的改變剛剛有提到那個最近美國川普上任之後對美國"},{"start":3594.761,"end":3618.898,"text":"他原來拜登所訂的一些AI的政策做了很大的改變那也因為這樣關係所以歐盟包括英國就決定延後AI推廣的這個監管的法案因為這樣關係我們事實上還在觀察這個目前國際的發展趨勢這個而且AI的技術真的變化太快從以前的辨識型AI到後來的這個生成式AI到現在可能會所謂的代理AIAgent AI"},{"start":3620.058,"end":3631.365,"text":"這個監管的方式都不同所以我覺得因為AI的技術還在變化所以現在訂的會不會太早這是我們也在討論的那細節部分我是不是請市長再問好 那委員"},{"start":3637.068,"end":3652.862,"text":"那本部大概是說到行政院要接辦那個AI基本法的立法工作我們確實也有投入時間從2月6號到3月19那政委有邀集我們大概有進行廣泛的討論所以有部分條文我們大概也有去融合"},{"start":3653.462,"end":3677.373,"text":"但是最主要在院版的部分現在的進度我們大家有詢問大概就是台灣現在有特殊的政經的環境所以在資安或假訊息的環境之下院理對於風險監管方面特別的慎重同時大概在4月16號教文也有開了一個所謂的公聽會那裡面的委員大概有提到就是說"},{"start":3678.353,"end":3704.747,"text":"針對特定的場景的分級的管理這個部分我們也特別在院板的相關的條文也有融合了風險的管理也就是我們所謂的畫紅線的部分針對於這個特別的部分有去研析那希望說我們大概在本部的立場仍然還是希望說強烈有院板來並案審查讓院裡有一定的立場在這個AR基本法裡面去表達大家希望委員可以體諒"},{"start":3708.099,"end":3732.509,"text":"請當然也謝謝速發部的承擔那過去這段時間但是當然各個委員有不同的想法那我們請吳承文主任謝謝 謝謝趙委員 各位委員各位從去年把原來我們草泥的這個版本送到行政院到現在其實是有大家沒有放下停下腳步啦"},{"start":3733.849,"end":3752.911,"text":"一直在收集各方的意見在行政院那邊一直在考慮包含這個產業發展創新的需求以及在我們民眾人權保護的相關的這個議題所以各方的這個意見都還是持續在收集進行當中"},{"start":3755.173,"end":3772.452,"text":"最近大家也知道剛剛蘇澳布也提到地緣政治貿易衝突等等其實我們如果回想3月的時候在巴黎召開了AI峰會美國的代表副總統他代表川普總統"},{"start":3773.693,"end":3800.501,"text":"在會後本來要簽署一個世界各國要同意的一個協議那美國是獨排中以那會後大家也發現說這個美國的立場相當的這個明確就是他在AI的這個發展上面絕對不願意任何其他國家來超越他因為AI是美國算是從美國"},{"start":3802.641,"end":3819.117,"text":"各種的這個原始的科學研究以及產業發展是從美國開始然後蔓延到全世界那目前除了美國跟中國以外其他的國家都會意識到說這個AI的進展非常的快速"},{"start":3820.378,"end":3838.302,"text":"在相關法律的制定,必須要很謹慎的去因應以免自己在AI創新產業的發展會受到影響同時又要兼顧到人權的保障,所以這個議題相當的複雜從我個人的觀點來看,AI的發展還在起步當中"},{"start":3843.863,"end":3859.911,"text":"這個起步將來甚至會跟量子運算會結合的那未來高速運算AI 量子這幾個領域將來如何結合現在還有很多的科學研發的工作要去進行"},{"start":3861.031,"end":3884.863,"text":"所以現在各國反而是變成採取一個比較觀望的態度這個現象的確在最近也發生了所以我們行政院可能也現在採取一個比較謹慎的態度以上我跟曾委員報告沒有我只是想詢問一下照這樣的一個說法這讓我有點很confuse就是說我剛剛也贊同我們兩位部長還有部長跟主委所提到的AI本來就是訊息萬變"},{"start":3886.064,"end":3907.815,"text":"随时在变化而且我们现在又提到的川普川普今天所讲的初一十五都不一样但是我还是要提醒AN这是一个基本法它只是一个基本法基本法的定义它就是一个上位大法所以说呢它当然里面的执行或里面的部分里面可以来做一个依循的一个标准可是我刚刚从头到尾听到尾里面"},{"start":3908.835,"end":3936.573,"text":"我说实在的我们也期待有原版而且我们认为这个就是AI本来就是当前政府里面最重要的你看吴委员不断地为一千八百亿还有这一百几百亿几千亿就是希望能够让我们变成一个AI大国我们台湾也有这样的实力我只是不能理解我们现在在处理这个AI基本法是一个基本法从第九届到现在怎么可能还拿不出一个基本法的一个基本的一个主轴"},{"start":3937.193,"end":3951.821,"text":"那書發部剛剛也特別提到了司長也提到了從二月開始你就不斷在動可是到目前為止好像又覺得說因為瞬息萬變方式所以我們現在沒有辦法可以在這個時候能夠提出那到底要給國人"},{"start":3952.782,"end":3976.877,"text":"感觉我们这个政府是如何不然我们就当场就觉得AI基本法目前来说不适合因为没有办法应付这么瞬息万变的时候我们就干脆停顿这也是一种态度而不是大家坐在这个地方等不到院版然后大家所讲的等着书发布的书面报告里面又没有办法告诉我们我说实在我们很努力的研读如果你今天进入组条我说实在的"},{"start":3977.757,"end":4004.808,"text":"包括书发部你比照大家所有的这个部分里面来说你看第一条第五条第十条第十二条我想以葛委员的版本或是以那个国客会的版本包括入数位平权或是这个有关弱势族群包括于推动这个能够跟生化产学合作这十二条都是有共识的我只是希望透过今天大家要道题讨论大家在谈到道题讨论的时候已经把第二条哪个主管机关其实就已经在做讨论了"},{"start":4005.208,"end":4031.321,"text":"那我們如果說要讓大家覺得我們這邊可以進一步那我就乾脆我們就是保留送出協商否則的話你足條裡面我說實在大家仔細看其實有很多是可以共識的起碼我看的結果比對結果有四條是書報報同意也是遵照國科會部分那表示我們就往往前進的一個空間啦所以我們大家應該做一個決定需要足條呢還是就是保留送協商總言之總不能耗在這個地方然後"},{"start":4031.761,"end":4057.408,"text":"吃吃的等形狀的版本我必須要老實說在委員院審版本不今天一定要有院版就可以了在我們的學服法裡面我們沒有院版的狀況下我們還是逐條等院版真正來之後發現那個吻合度很高我們就可以立即做到我不想說大家在這邊浪費一堆時間然後還是耗在這個地方從第九卷到現在已經多久時間還沒有辦法搞出一個AI基本法我還是強調基本大法"},{"start":4057.628,"end":4083.667,"text":"不是要你去做到什麼多細節的我讓我們的委員會真的是對不起對於這個AI立國的這樣子的一個方向啦好 謝謝柯志文委員羅廷瑋委員 然後接下來謝榮介委員好這樣聽完部長跟主委的說法因為瞬息萬變所以我們不改變我們AI這個基本法不是政治法案"},{"start":4085.373,"end":4105.247,"text":"我記得在改裝電腦界最近葛委員也在改裝電腦好像說三個月電腦就有一波新的更動更新那更何況手機可能半年但AI呢就是瞬息萬變"},{"start":4107.048,"end":4123.095,"text":"我們這一次賴清德總統也說他是AI內閣但是我們現在在釘釘AI基本法卻好像不太願意去大刀闊斧我想許多的家長也都非常非常的擔憂我們會不會在AI的戰爭當中看不到車尾燈"},{"start":4128.089,"end":4149.639,"text":"對於AI的境界當中我們會不會只是AI裡面的時器時代所以我想今天這一個AI基本法我看到這麼多裡面都有大概很多的一些委員都有共識的我覺得我們應該趕快處理所以這個部分希望能夠趕快推進謝謝謝榮介委員接下來油化委員"},{"start":4151.064,"end":4158.368,"text":"我相信是這樣,AI本來就是一直前例,一直在注意、在想辦法。這是一個基本,在中美兩大陣營的對抗當中,顯然我們沒辦法就是要站在美國這邊,這是必然。"},{"start":4174.556,"end":4194.503,"text":"但你不能全部單臺嘛就是到底要強力監管要兼顧發展你又不能一直發展所以你運搬出來就是說可以有某些豁免因為單臺嘛單臺我們不能只有單臺啊我們必須要有所作為六黨嘛"},{"start":4201.448,"end":4211.252,"text":"如果當下就說這個所有的對應台的AI內閣其實很多人期待你想想這中間有一些醫療AI對於人的身體 因為未來一直成立 每天在進步新的東西出來 如果你沒有一個感官範"},{"start":4223.857,"end":4250.206,"text":"所以在這個強力的監管跟快速的發展中間是可以處在平衡的所以是不是你要提出一個硬板呢這個硬板裡面可以有部分的豁免部分的擁穩部分的等待要怎麼合成啊如果我們一段再一段啦第三回機等過第四回機這有很多人的希望尤其是羅總統"},{"start":4252.031,"end":4261.761,"text":"我不知道你現在的態度是什麼,因為要當美國特朗普總統他的態度很明確,我們要配合他來守我們的法我個人認為不需要這樣,我們有辦法在當台的過程中,確定我們現在的基本態度不然你現在沒辦法,只有這委員的版本"},{"start":4275.779,"end":4285.846,"text":"協商到現在還是大家都不願意啊不然你們可以不願意說你們沒有提出議判最好協商這個法可以審嗎主委跟我討論是不是所以還是要快速提出來針對監管跟發展中間的一個平衡要進入各版本的協商要不然協商"},{"start":4305.089,"end":4316.392,"text":"很簡單,大家沒有很大的基建,要怎麼快速,這後面各行各業都在等待所以基本發出來後後面的社稷管理,那麼在業界的發展"},{"start":4321.694,"end":4329.076,"text":"現在是中發電啦 勤監督 現在是要檢舉監督勤發電行政院要有一個態度出來 不能說大家這樣就去做自己的如果大家都做自己的 也不需要行政院跟立法院在這裡共同討論"},{"start":4344.58,"end":4359.128,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請尤化委員然後待會陳培宇委員謝謝 也謝謝各位同樣的也是注意剛才不管是柯政委員還有包括薛榮傑委員大家的一個意見跟看法"},{"start":4359.648,"end":4380.163,"text":"因為在人工智慧基本法其實從第九條到現在大家也經過非常多的討論那其實不管是速發部或者是國科會其實大家在立法院或者是在內部也經過非常多的討論所以說在整個草案其實在許多的從主管機關到許多每個條文的部分其實大家早就有想法"},{"start":4380.663,"end":4409.098,"text":"那如果說現在來講的話在持續在等卷版的話那其實這樣子其實社會各界都一直在期待其實我相信部會也很希望這個法能夠早日通過能夠早日實施大家都有共識啊所以本市長是也希望說在今天的的話的聯席過程中能夠針對許多的內容大家有一個許多明確的結果因為其實這個不是今天才討論的這是經過從第九節到現在大家都已經討論其實機關來講其實也都很清楚啊"},{"start":4409.258,"end":4429.023,"text":"所以機關在你草案的時候早就也都有想法啦所以我是覺得說與其我們在等候啊不如大家其實不管是國民黨民眾黨或是民進黨的委員大家就一起來讓這個法在今天有一個具體的成果我相信這也是民眾社會比較希望能夠看得到的尤其在科技業大家希望能夠早日有成果謝謝"},{"start":4430.183,"end":4445.795,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員好 謝謝主席我想談一下因為剛剛我知道我們有在討論光是主管機關這件事情都還沒有談定但是聽說你們教文的委員就希望如果要談到主管機關那就要進主條"},{"start":4446.556,"end":4465.119,"text":"可是剛剛柯志恩委員又舉了學福法為例我要講這不是一個可以同等比喻的案例因為學福法它早在十年前就有這個法而且當時的主管機關非常的明確但這一次連主管機關都不明確的情況下不同的主管機關有不同的想像跟不同的部門之間連結的可能性"},{"start":4465.6,"end":4485.84,"text":"我認為光是主管機關沒有談定這件事情就應該好好花時間的討論那再更何況各個主條裡面其實很多委員的版本其實差異很大那我認為廣泛討論這些事情的意義非常重要而且我要提醒剛剛其實有很多委員有提到各國現在對於AI所謂監管的事情其實態度很不一樣"},{"start":4486.761,"end":4501.042,"text":"那我認為剛剛國民黨委員一直提到所謂卓院長也好或是賴總統也好我想要提醒大家目前在相關政策跟預算的推動上在各個部會或是AI監管都已經有相關的措施在進行"},{"start":4502.023,"end":4524.799,"text":"台灣目前雖然沒有AI基本法但並不代表所有部會的行政推動或是預算支持就是停滯不前的甚至剛剛有人指控是AI的時期時代我非常不以為然也感到遺憾身為一個立法委員看的不是只有立法還要監督行政機關的運作如果你真的認真去看各個行政機關目前在AI政策上的推動就應該知道各個部會都有相關業務在推動因此我認為"},{"start":4525.64,"end":4541.959,"text":"就算我們現在沒有基本法但我們很多事情已經在推動的情況下更實質的去跟這些政策對話去跟這些預算對話可能是更好的機制那當然我也認為基本法也好或是大家可能後續還想要加沖加料變作用法我都認為都需要更多實質的討論"},{"start":4543.2,"end":4564.773,"text":"而且現在因為國際的聲音很不一樣我們並不是要等到美國立法之後我們才來立法而是如果相關科技它所對接的就是像美國 英國 歐洲這些國家他們的需求那我們更要回過來看當你在跟這些國際國家對話的時候你難道不用回來看我們自己現在這樣做是對的嗎所以我認為這件事情真的很需要實質的更多討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":4568.158,"end":4590.533,"text":"因為陳培委員剛點名的課真三個字所以我還是要做一些回應我想培委員我剛所講的脈絡是說大家都在講要等願版來我們來繼續才來繼續築條我剛剛只是用學夫法來說沒有願版我們還是有辦法進入築條不要單指一個執行的機關這不是我剛剛所講話的本意我還是把話說清楚"},{"start":4591.053,"end":4620.369,"text":"然后呢执行机关在第二条的部分的确没有谈定所以呢你即使广泛讨论其实结果也还是莫衷于事还是没有办法所以说进入组条的状况跟广泛讨论的状况是一样的但是你进入组条起码你往前推进一步不管在第一条我刚刚说的第四条第几条当中我们有一些共识没有共识的话我们就送出委员会然后呢再来做继续这样才有办法让这个基本法一步一步贴近"},{"start":4620.589,"end":4621.831,"text":"主席 各位同仁 其實大家都"},{"start":4637.134,"end":4663.928,"text":"贊同啦 就我們現在是非常重視AI的這個國家然後當然行政院或總統有推什麼AI政策大家當然都非常的高興 而且歡迎但這跟我們到底要不要立法我覺得並沒有衝突啦因為畢竟民主國家還是一個依法行政而且透過立法可以讓政府繼續在這一塊更完備 更快往前走所以如果我們要真的大家重視AI的話我覺得AI基本法早日的訂定絕對是有相關的"},{"start":4664.688,"end":4690.415,"text":"那現在如果說只是卡在說沒有願版或者是說針對有一些條文大家意見不一樣那哪個法律常常也都發生這樣的狀況啊很多法律在推出之前大家每個版本都不一樣啊但是總是要往前走啊那所以這個AI基本法基本上也開過公聽會了然後上次也都有質詢過那如果說就是因為有一條大家的意見不一樣那乾脆我們就不要再討論了"},{"start":4691.263,"end":4708.579,"text":"那這個永遠都不會有前進的嘛那所以我其實我也是主張說今天要有一個結果啦那如果沒有願版的話那就請這個法案送出委員會之後請那個行政院趕快把版本送進來啊大家就針對行政院的版本還有各委員版本一起不管是協商也好或者是討論也好"},{"start":4709.5,"end":4726.984,"text":"那我覺得往前走才是主要的目的啦那如果總是找一些理由說這個那個的不要做的話那其實這比較容易啦但是這應該不是國家的需求啦 謝謝好 再來徐富奎委員保障利害關係人參與之權利提升市政透明度及"},{"start":4729.846,"end":4741.357,"text":"接下來張雅玲委員 郭玉琴委員 吳宗憲委員 謝謝還有黃建豪委員 林怡瑾 趙偉好 謝謝主席各位同仁 我想剛剛聽了這麼多委員的提問我想我們還是認為這個法"},{"start":4745.04,"end":4773.639,"text":"真的不能夠這麼草率來處理那尤其我們過去看到這個藍白兩黨在很多的案子上面的處理真的是這樣壞腸壓進去了這個很多的例子都可以看得出來那所以針對今天這樣的一個案子尤其我們AI涉及到各個領域我們都支持說應該要加快進行但是因為各領域有差別性的不同所以更應該考量到多元的一個發展不應該用一個基本法用無差別的方式進行監管"},{"start":4773.979,"end":4803.259,"text":"那尤其過去我們知道這個我們原本在交通委員會主管的一個業務那在藍白強行的免疫之下又把它移到所謂教文那主管機關原本數位部又變成國科會這樣變來變去也不知道到底什麼人可以來管我想在這些問題還沒有釐清之前我們更應該謹慎那尤其看到我們現在歐美新進國家他們對於監管的取向也有不一樣的態勢我們更應該要謹慎小心才是"},{"start":4803.899,"end":4831.341,"text":"好 接下來張雅玲委員 謝謝好 我想大家都非常的關注AI這件事情那我想這個可能是今天大家唯一的共識啦怎麼說因為剛剛雖然很多的委員一直在講說我們從第九屆就開始討論很久但是我認為因為就是因為科技的日新月異不代表討論很久我們今天就可以直接討論因為如果我們只是靠傳統的修法那會不會造成我們的修法根本沒有跟上這個時代還有現在"},{"start":4831.821,"end":4849.889,"text":"各個國家歐盟英國美國等等我們能不能夠對接一下能不能確保我們的產業有競爭力我認為這還是需要更審慎的來討論那第二件事情是說在整個法案的核心裡面人工智慧的定義都沒有共識這會直接影響到這個法所涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":4851.81,"end":4865.987,"text":"風險分類治治理的主體以及技術落地的一個實務的界線那再來剛剛還有提到說雖然都已經開了公聽會但是我想大家過去可能在討論AI的時候並沒有討論到兒少的影響的部分那過去"},{"start":4866.227,"end":4890.451,"text":"其實我們在很多的法案都會做兒少的影響性評估今天家長很在乎自己的小孩有沒有跟上時代但是更在乎自己的小孩會不會因為AI而走上死亡之路因為就在不久前美國佛州也才提出了14歲的少年因為跟AI機器人對話最後被導引了走向死亡的這條路所以我認為在兒少性的影響性評估我們目前似乎也都還沒有做"},{"start":4890.951,"end":4906.962,"text":"在我們之前的公聽會也沒有找相關的兒少團體來發言的時候我們其實對於AI的發展會不會實質的影響到兒少的最佳利益我們是一無所知在這種狀況之下要進入實質的討論我認為對兒少來說並不是一件好事 謝謝謝謝 接下來請郭益勤委員"},{"start":4915.708,"end":4943.727,"text":"我再次强调我觉得我们国会不应该是成为这个比谁先送案的一个竞技场那更不能牺牲这个立法的一个品质AI的发展其实它牵扯的范围非常的广那包含像是隐私权或者是劳动权那公平竞争私安教育跟未来人才的一个培育这是绝对不会是单独就可以拍板的那我想呢刚刚其实大家都有提到这个主管机关未定那共识不足"},{"start":4944.147,"end":4964.572,"text":"那冒然的逐條其實還會衍生更多將來要解釋跟這個行政爭奪還有造成這個法制上面崩解這樣子的一個問題我想這個AI不是寫好條文就可以管而是要靠整個整體制度的一個體系的這個落地那我們真的有準備好嗎雖然說這個是上位法但是上位法是不是應該更彰顯它的一個價值"},{"start":4966.553,"end":4992.227,"text":"那如果今天貿然的逐條或者在沒有共識之下去討論這些將來留下的一些所謂的這個法律漏洞給未來的一個執行者跟主管機關去收拾我想這是一個非常不負責任的態度啦好 以上好 謝謝我們接下來有請吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員也是我們這個這一屆會期最早主要提案 流動自衛機關法草案的委員好 現在有需要"},{"start":4993.348,"end":5016.958,"text":"那我去年3月我跟那個葛委員還有洪孟凱委員我們那時候就共提了AI基本法所以對於行政機關而言這絕對不是突襲啊所以我們去年3月我就已經提出來這個基本法的草案那這個草案我也不是說2月進立法院3月就申出來這個草案是我自己之前就花了一兩年的時間"},{"start":5018.078,"end":5036.548,"text":"跟一些法律系的教授像甘天貴教授等等的我們是一步一步的研究出AI的走向因為我自己碩士論文就寫人工智慧所以這東西不是突然騰空出世的那我想我們那個時候提的時候剛好歐洲歐盟他們也才剛提而已"},{"start":5037.008,"end":5058.894,"text":"但是現在一年三個月過去了我們還在原地踏步然後我們旁邊的韓國反而從完全沒有到現在超前了我們很多那我再跟各位報告一下我們今天這是基本法不是作用法你們剛剛很多委員提出很寶貴的論述但那個是在作用法的時候討論的基本法其實不需要討論到那麼細節或各個細項的東西"},{"start":5063.179,"end":5086.529,"text":"我想我們尤其台灣現在是出口導向的這個國家啦那人工智慧這個本來現在是全世界都一直在推動那如果你不趕快把這個法律框架跟這個它的原理原則去處理好的話整個我們會繼續的落後那我也跟各位報告因為政府上任之後一直說希望要推動AI的內閣嘛用AI治國那我也非常認同"},{"start":5087.509,"end":5108.914,"text":"政府的這個政策可是如果這個政策你的最基本的基本法都推不出來更不要講未來的作用法你基本法每拖一年你作用法就要再往後多少年更何況作用法還涉及到科技的進步那你能工智慧他科技進步他可能一個月就完全不一樣啊那你基本法一直拖你作用法"},{"start":5109.594,"end":5130.769,"text":"你可能今年立出來的作用法明年整套不能用那大家有沒有想過這個問題你光是那個CHAP GPT它就已經翻了多少版本了那我再提一個就是說我很希望趕快把這個弄出來因為人工智慧跟我們一般人類的智慧不一樣人類智慧它是要逐年去累積所以一個小朋友他"},{"start":5131.79,"end":5159.107,"text":"就像我小孩四歲而已他現在還不知道火很危險他從燒到幾次知道火不能碰他可能要三五年以上的時間但人工智慧它是全世界的機器同時學習它可能在一秒鐘之內它會學習到完整的知識所以它的變化是瞬間的而不是像我們人類是慢慢的慢慢的一步步走所以人工智慧的法案它的立法的思考跟我們處理人類社會的那種法案的思考不能夠一樣"},{"start":5160.528,"end":5179.352,"text":"我們要學習的東西需要十年他可能是一瞬間一秒鐘之內因為他累積的資料庫是全世界所有有連線的人工智慧機器所學習到的資料他知道走台階沒有台腳會跌倒小朋友可能要一年但是呢人工智慧可能是0.5秒內因為有500台有1000台"},{"start":5183.753,"end":5204.959,"text":"機器在這個地方跌倒他就會告訴大家不可以在這個地方這麼做一定要在抬腳所以我想喔速度這東西非常的重要那我們去年3月就已經提出整個法的草案那如果行政機關跟不上那我們就只能由立法機關這邊來趕快來來朝這個方向去做好 接下來黃建豪委員然後吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5208.301,"end":5221.889,"text":"黃建豪委員 林一菊委員然後吳佩儀委員 謝謝好 謝謝張偉我想今天我們大家討論的是這個人工智慧的基本法那既然是基本法我想它的核心的應該是這所謂技術治理而不是在所謂數位管理的部分"},{"start":5223.09,"end":5242.066,"text":"過去大家討論的時候也會非常強調說要去做資料應用或是平台的管制這個應該是後續應用上面或是說AI基本法立好之後我們的上位法處理好之後進入到產業政策或進入到實際上執行的時候我們再來討論所謂的監管或者是應用的部分那在現階段之前處理基本法"},{"start":5242.346,"end":5268.805,"text":"我覺得應該是從所謂技術倫理演算法透明跟科學性的自主性生命來切入我想這也是我們國科會過去就是長期擔任的角色不然過去說提到了像是AI人才培育計畫台灣AI中心AI台灣行動計畫等等等等這從2018年開始都是由當時的科技部國科會來主導這樣的重大政策所以我想這是有一定的延續性我想這個數位就是說這個人工智慧它不是單純的"},{"start":5270.226,"end":5291.619,"text":"就是不是直接進入到所謂數位應用工具而它一開始是所謂的我們現在這個階段討論是這個深層科技怎麼去發展怎麼去研發那它是有機器學習比較神經網路還有量子計算的這些技術面的問題科學面的東西所以我覺得在現階段在處理AI基本法的時候應該是要有這樣子國科會這樣子的機關來處理來做主管機關相對來講會比較有權瞻性"},{"start":5297.682,"end":5316.774,"text":"我想各位也比較過,現在全世界兩大聯盟在做AI,一個是像中跟美,這樣是屬於發展性的,我們不管政治怎麼參,他們對AI人工智慧的態度,歐洲是比較保守,強調監管,美國跟中國比較強調發展,"},{"start":5321.356,"end":5346.742,"text":"這個科技的這個競爭上面看起來啦歐盟的目前因為他強調監管的情況下面他確實對於AI的管理AI的發展相對的比較我覺得應用上沒有那麼強烈所以在科技面我覺得至少現階段我們先處理科技面先處理研發面的時候還是應該去強調說這個科學的部分還要強調這個發展的部分那後續那如果進入到實質上的商用"},{"start":5347.362,"end":5374.614,"text":"還有各政府部門之間要討論說我們在這個金融系統怎麼管理我們在這個互徵資料怎麼管理等等的那個是那個時候可能數位部或是說我們監管的機制在進場那今天討論的是基本法基本法是上位我們是先把這個上位處理好那再去處理後續營用的部分以上 謝謝謝謝我們接下來請林一錦召委持續確保經費符合推動人工智能政策"},{"start":5375.234,"end":5395.153,"text":"今天台審最主要是這樣就是說我會認為目前沒有速發部的這個院版出來那這樣子因為這是一個新法那如果說能等速發部的草案出來再跟大家版本來並案審查這才會比較妥適那為什麼會這樣講因為其實"},{"start":5398.456,"end":5420.645,"text":"第一個行政院的這個大方向的規劃就是已經要委由速發部來主責這個AI基本法的推動那之後我們還會針對很多的這個像說風險如何分類啊然後會有個風險分類的機制或者促進資料創新條例發展條例等等就與AI相關的執法其實也都是由速發部來做這個盤點所以"},{"start":5424.267,"end":5446.449,"text":"所以為什麼要等速發布的草案出來行政院是這樣子的處理方式那可是這畢竟是一個新的法那可是我們現在很多委員的版本像說我們招委的版本就是以國科會為組織的單位所以這當然就有很大的歧義的部分"},{"start":5447.25,"end":5460.557,"text":"那當然目前就我了解啦行政部門也不是不做事他其實已經在由政委在協調會議有協調出AI治理的一方針而且他們認為速發部才是最佳的這個組織的單位"},{"start":5463.238,"end":5483.903,"text":"可是我想葛昭偉質疑要國科會來主管而且也安排在教育委員會來主審這個當然這部分我是比較難以理解這樣的安排是有如何更專業的考量這個可能也等一下看葛昭偉怎麼說"},{"start":5485.003,"end":5503.562,"text":"那再看剛剛其他委員的說法就其實AI的發展就真的是關係牽涉到國際關係跟全球的佈局那世界上台灣的潛在競爭對象又或者合作的對象的一舉一動我們當然必須要很及時的掌握那像說好"},{"start":5504.362,"end":5520.569,"text":"他為了觀察美國川普政府的這個政策走向他就保留對AI大型科技公司的吸引力就延後AI監管法案的推動那美國甚至還要在未來十年內禁止各州制定針對AI的相關法規那至於歐盟也表態"},{"start":5521.409,"end":5540.337,"text":"說如果這個技術標準跟指引還沒有就緒那還不排除延後部份這個監管法規的生效那這樣國際上的案例給我們的啟示是什麼AI是人類發展的新的領域它變化空間相當大今天的審查我認為是完全違背世界各國的謹小慎微"},{"start":5541.437,"end":5567.564,"text":"那不僅在院版還沒有出來之前就要趕火車而且硬要跟行政專業唱反調因為這個國科會跟這個數位不夠主責單位的問題那所以我是覺得這樣啦審法案我們真的是為了服國利民而不是爭功搶勞那我覺得還是是不是可以請行政部門做出全版的評估之後我們再來處理好不好以上"},{"start":5569.233,"end":5593.297,"text":"因為這個林警召委有點名到我我想我快速回應一下第一點我想國歌會主委怎麼說都還是政委而且他有順利的在他所承諾的期限之內提出了一板草案只不過後續被行政院收回不明原因同時在機關的人力上面國歌會也是人數是較多的"},{"start":5593.777,"end":5601.327,"text":"同時在過去AI數位相關的預算有高達五十幾億總共有將近三百億是由國客會在主導"},{"start":5602.202,"end":5628.978,"text":"那速發部呢相對只有5億左右數位加AI還不是只有AI的預算人力相對的也比較吃緊現在又要做打詐又要做資安那我們也非常擔憂可能會影響到信任的問題因為近期呢有一些數位、資安、憑證等等遇到一些信任的問題我們也會擔心現在可能有人開始不信任我們的數位"},{"start":5630.211,"end":5656.222,"text":"甚至未來會不會有人不信任我們的AI那甚至我們賴清德總統也在2月說這是民進黨的優先法案結果我們現在還在這裡講各種各種的原因不往下推進我們也擔心各國會不信任台灣的政黨所以我想我們想的是更上位的事情我們也希望大家可以一起來理解謝謝那我們接下來請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5658.985,"end":5685.333,"text":"剛剛前面吳仲憲委員的發言部分我同意不過因為有一個部分我想因為前面可能還沒有到因為剛剛說今天都是基本法的討論通通都沒有作用法不是啦我剛剛前面就有提了民眾黨黨團的提案完全是作用法嘛你看這36條足以嚴重損害於個人資料當事人者處五年以下有期徒刑第37條借期未改善者處新台幣兩億元"},{"start":5686.873,"end":5707.382,"text":"或企業年營收百分之四以下之罰款這個當然是作用法而且不是只有36、37條它整個法案本身它就是人工作業發展及管理條例這個完全就是作用法所以如果說今天要送書委員會要去協商的話請問這個基本法跟作用法要如何協商"},{"start":5707.782,"end":5734.632,"text":"而且他是黨團的提案不是一個個別委員的提案還是說我們要完全的拋棄民眾黨團的版本那民眾黨團到寫上的時候會同意嗎所以我的建議還是說不是說我們不能在委會好好討論但是今天你一個黨這個差異太大了請問基本法跟作用法要如何有共識我們今天現場其他提案委員有同意要處以刑法有同意要處到兩億元一億元的罰環嗎"},{"start":5737.453,"end":5761.699,"text":"這個是務實的問題啊主席所以我剛剛說部分我都同意可是這個基本法跟作法差異這麼大情況下我真的不知道如果你們今天要堅持送出委員會到協商有可能有共識嗎剛剛榮介委員也說協商會有共識嗎不會嘛這個是關乎產業很重大的法案我希望不要這樣子來處理謝謝好謝謝我們有請林佩祥委員接下來劉淑冰委員"},{"start":5764.668,"end":5771.863,"text":"謝謝主席有關人工智慧基本法這個案子我認為儘快送出委員會的最主要原因是因為說"},{"start":5774.44,"end":5794.08,"text":"深度學習這東西是非常可怕的剛剛不管是中線委員還是其他委員都已經講過當我們現在還在討論這些事情的時候AI的速度不是像我們一般的產業慢慢的前進他們的科研他們的甚至說我記得我看過一個影片兩部AI自己在講話最後面他們發出自己才懂的訊息人類是不能懂的"},{"start":5794.5,"end":5810.398,"text":"但在这个前提之下如果我们在于说这个AI的发展方向不明确那很有可能在未来不是只有单纯的说AI的发展上面而是我们全国的我们在国际之间的产业竞争跟我们未来可以发展的方向"},{"start":5810.758,"end":5834.773,"text":"都会受到阻碍试想一下我们现在的进合关系是跟全球在做进合但是如果我们没有自己的特色的话我们政府如果不能用这AI基本法决定我们的特色来限制说可能有危害的地方甚至发展出来我们自己的优势的话我认为在未来的经济竞争跟产业竞争上面我们会有极大的冲击甚至说我们可能做的都已经晚了"},{"start":5835.492,"end":5853.744,"text":"那第二点来讲的话我会个人认为说以国科会来去做主管机关会比速发部来的好原因是很简单刚刚建豪委员刚刚有提过我深表认同因为我记得最近看最新的报告美国跟中国是在AI上面算是目前竞争力最强的两个国家"},{"start":5854.164,"end":5879.33,"text":"那歐盟可是歐盟其實他們的科研的能力很強為什麼他們沒有辦法去跟美國跟中國人併加崎嶇原因是因為歐盟需要27個國家都能夠一致性的認同某些政策而在這種前提之下我們會看到是說他們AI發展必須獲得共識之後才能出來所以說他們以歐盟的AI政策的發展來講他們是用管制或協調的方式相對於美國跟中國讓企業讓產業能夠自由發揮這點來講對於國家競爭力是比較有幫助的"},{"start":5884.031,"end":5890.277,"text":"因此我會認為說以國科會來做主管機關會比速發不來的恰當以上請劉書斌委員"},{"start":5893.18,"end":5912.915,"text":"好 謝謝主席民眾黨去參與AI相關法定的制定的時候是起自於在第十屆的時候是由吳欣怡委員在進行我們做一個小檔的話我們認真的考慮到的是AI在台灣的發展它事實上就如之前的吳主委還有談論過或是說各個當局在公聽會裡面談到的"},{"start":5914.036,"end":5941.626,"text":"就是台灣目前的AI的發展呢最主要已經是在研發上面事實上是落後的因為沒辦法發展目前的這個地方是在美國跟中國為主但是在我們確實重要的是在應用的部分那在應用的部分的時候就必須要有很多的包括的是一種基本原則的運作還有包括的是在一個鼓勵的發展方向的部分還更重要的是職權上面的認定還有在風險分類上面的這個指引這些部分呢"},{"start":5942.226,"end":5969.225,"text":"事實上只有在一個作用法當中才比較完整的呈現出來當初我們是善盡一個小黨的一個責任呈現出來這部分但是在目前看到各黨的版本當中他們對於職權的部分其實是不明確的像我們發展這樣是在那第四條當中呈現出來的那我們在現在的在第十一屆在呈現在審議的調查度上面我們當然是要跟各黨的不一樣兩黨的不一樣但是我們希望的是說有一個保留保持著一個文保持著一個小黨當中對一個"},{"start":5970.586,"end":5982.063,"text":"一個全面性的發展當中目前是一個以發展以應用為主的時候呈現出來它在架構上面還包括了鼓勵發展還有風險特別部分有一些罰則當時因為作用法無限就是在於說剛才剛才的是這個"},{"start":5986.91,"end":6000.005,"text":"對 張耀林委員也提到的是說包括兒少部分沒有去注意到的確的 實際上是身為這樣的技術上面目前都已經造成在我們的數位的影音網路上面都發生問題了這些部分"},{"start":6001.527,"end":6029.706,"text":"我們必須要有很具體的指引方向所以我們包括的是在包括是在發展的原則上面我們就提了有一張專則特別在那邊講出來呈現出來是我們對小黨對於各種議題上面的重視那這個情況下我們保留的態度是說我們希望說能夠保留下去這個名稱但是到最後的時候能夠透過政黨協商的部分去呈現出來是說尊重到時候在協商當中的態度當然可能呈現出來的是兩黨還是比較多數所以但是我們希望在委員會當中"},{"start":6040.497,"end":6051.91,"text":"我想剛剛有非常多委員的意見我們稍微簡要的回應其實第一是我們並非沒有願版其實國歌會有提出過一個版本那我相信速發部也做完他們的工作了"},{"start":6052.33,"end":6076.468,"text":"第二點,關於一些人權而少的保護其實我們第四條就有自主原則、保密原則、安全原則包含保障人民生命、身體自由以及財產之安全多包容原則,多元包容確保公平避免歧視其實就是需要有一個上位法各個機關去做法規調適我相信就可以做到信賴那我們一共有第四條、第六條、第十六條"},{"start":6077.228,"end":6094.285,"text":"都是AI的信賴、風險分類以及個人的保護強調數位平權的有第五條、第九條、第十七條我們也用了智商157的各種新型態的這種比對方法我們也看到國民黨的版本、民進黨版本之間相似度高達八成五"},{"start":6094.986,"end":6118.465,"text":"那其他民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨之間的版本互相的相似度有高達七成所以並非沒有共識的點那同時我們也剛剛提到就是剛剛有李昆哲委員、柯志恩委員有提案全案保留那現在14個版本我們剛剛提到其實經過比對也是高度相似的那現在本法已經討論將近一個小時了"},{"start":6120.126,"end":6143.27,"text":"那在場委員呢也都均充分的表達意見那我們現在有國民黨委員提國民黨委員提案全案保留送出委員會交付政黨協商那這個案由呢是建議本案停止討論全案保留送院會協商是否有當敬請公決提案人謝龍介林沛翔羅廷偉柯志恩洪孟凱委員那請問在場委員有異議"},{"start":6154.176,"end":6172.492,"text":"我再表達一次請大家去google一下賴清德空格人工智慧2017年12月18號賴清德擔任行政院長的時候就呼籲要運用人工智慧去提升競爭力創新創意所以我想這個已經二月份"},{"start":6172.992,"end":6195.573,"text":"也都是民進黨自己的優先法案民眾黨也提出他們的版本也有七成以上跟我們的相關的共性我們國民黨也希望那我們公聽會也有各界都是非常的期待從2017年到現在已經經歷八年了我想我們不需要再用其他的理由沒關係我們就來看一下這個提案好那既然有提案我們是不是"},{"start":6199.141,"end":6215.855,"text":"可以進到主條啊因為剛剛你們是要廣泛討論啊因為剛剛有李昆哲委員我們還是進主條啦對我們剛剛是因為李昆哲委員有提嘛那我們想要主條嘛那你們說想要廣泛討論嘛好"},{"start":6220.802,"end":6242.561,"text":"我們一個多小時的討論其實大家有共識還是有共識第一AI基本法重要嗎?重要大家都應該我們台灣都應該要有第二大家都希望是這個基本法在韓國人面上更完整更全面那我們一定要是有"},{"start":6243.959,"end":6269.869,"text":"提出來之後才能夠逐條然後大家來去做一個協商嘛其實我剛剛看了一下林益金委員的版本啊很多的版本裡面條文裡面其實也寫得很好啊對啊那一樣如果說今天是第一個會期我還是強調這一點是國科會跟速發部你們不可迴避的責任如果今天是2024年第一個會期的時候我們還可以這樣子來溝通是因為那個時候世界上還沒有"},{"start":6270.93,"end":6277.289,"text":"進行到那麼的快速可是現在是已經過了一整整的一年我們還逐步在原地踏步"},{"start":6278.342,"end":6306.509,"text":"那再者很多人剛在講是說有一些委員的版本是國科會為主管機關那是因為在去年那是因為那些委員版本在去年就提出來了那去年的時候民進黨政府真的就是把AI人工智慧基本法當成是國科會是主管機關嘛那是因為到了去年的11月的時候才從國科會突然轉成速發部你不能說去年11月從國科會轉速發部的然後就你現在導應為果來去說啊為什麼有些委員的版本是主管機關是國科會有些版本是速發部"},{"start":6307.529,"end":6329.615,"text":"那是因為是這個過程但我覺得既然大家有共識我們是不是逐條逐條來看文字相近的精神相符的我們就讓他可以順利的出委員會如果說文字不符的或是說條文上有大家討論的真的沒有辦法我們條文來保留那我也請等一下束發我不知道他們有沒有回應"},{"start":6330.595,"end":6354.369,"text":"什麼時候你們版本可以提出來我們有一個月的冷凍期其實為什麼會有一個月冷凍期就是希望在這一個月裡面大家各黨回去再凝聚共識縮減版本那另外也要要求行政部門提出來啊不然難道我們要開空白支票持續讓你們時間一拖再拖嗎人家都已經上太空了我們還要殺豬公這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6356.415,"end":6368.596,"text":"謝謝 好 謝謝可不可以請速發部明確展示一下我們是什麼時候會提出速發部這裡確認的願板還是你們其實已經提出了只是不好意思說"},{"start":6370.592,"end":6377.515,"text":"有嗎我們那個如果沒有具體時間我想現在是沒有但是我們在沒有具體時間對 2013年我們在11月22日有送2013嗎113年但是現在因為就是剛剛講的就是因為這個各部會的意見很多然後那個公聽會學者意見很多所以我們還在討論中"},{"start":6390.239,"end":6407.343,"text":"所以2024年113年10月22號10月22號有送一個版本了有一個願版了因為還在討論中所以目前還沒有一個願版好 謝謝部長那我們是不是就進竹條因為我們想要進竹條的時候你們又想要廣泛討論我想我們這樣會沒有結果喔"},{"start":6414.417,"end":6441.158,"text":"好 那就秀寶委員發言陳秀寶委員 謝謝謝謝張偉剛剛張偉有在說我們速發趕快把版本提出所以這個主管機關是在速發那既然主管機關是在速發為什麼是教文在審我一開始我看到說既然這個行政院他們認定說主管機關是速發部那我們也覺得說你要盡快提出你的版本之後"},{"start":6442.85,"end":6454.681,"text":"不好意思 我們是聯席我們陳雪生委員 廖先祥委員我們黃建豪委員我們也有民進黨的但是主責是不是應該是我們孟凱委員也是交通的聯席 謝謝"},{"start":6458.322,"end":6487.862,"text":"那你們這邊對我們教文這邊召委您排審是聯席那麼交通委員會的委員們他們自己也有會他們沒有辦法來參與沒有辦法來充分的來參與沒有 我今天我想請教的就是說既然這個主管機關是在速發我們也可以去聯席他們我們為什麼不尊重行政院"},{"start":6488.502,"end":6512.751,"text":"不好意思喔我還是因為這個我怕民眾有點誤會啦我們剛剛交通委員會的黃孟楷委員游浩委員李坑澤委員徐富奎委員都有發言黃靜豪委員那我們在現場的有廖先祥委員陳雪生委員都還在因為您排了聯席所以他們必須要來啊但是我只是說我的我質疑就是說既然主管機關他就是在速發"},{"start":6513.971,"end":6535.699,"text":"那為什麼我們叫我們一定要把它排到我們這裡來聯繫好 謝謝我也回應一下我們是依照院會交付的這個我們立院議制第1140701906號那是請貴會會同交通委員會審查本院委員許智傑等27人以據人工智慧基本法草案查照所以我們是依據相關的院的"},{"start":6535.939,"end":6544.43,"text":"要在交通委員會因為既然是速發部他是主管機關我們是聯席沒有錯但是不應該是我們叫我們去通知他們來聯席應該是"},{"start":6548.203,"end":6567.51,"text":"主場不是應該要在交通委員會嗎好 謝謝 發言完畢嗎好 謝謝我想您提到的剛好就是一個意見就是主條因為其實到第二條的時候我們就會討論到相關的主管機關那我想我們現在是要主條還是要討論所以我們不能主條了以後你們說要討論我們說要討論了你們又說要主條"},{"start":6571.471,"end":6595.575,"text":"所以我們是不是請民進黨委員決定一下我們現在又有一個新的提案建議本案停止討論進行逐條討論請問是否有當 敬請公決提案委員 謝榮健委員 林沛翔委員 羅廷偉委員好 請問有意見 請問委員有意見好 沒有意見 通過那我想我們就逐條 謝謝那我們"},{"start":6602.776,"end":6610.869,"text":"有意見那那就表決啊就表決因為我們已經沒有要我們已經在提案停止討論了那現在又要針對這個提案再進行討論我想"},{"start":6614.13,"end":6638.477,"text":"然後我們就表決是否有逐條我們再問一次我們希望讓社會大眾以及國際看到我們的共識好嗎我們這個是真的是一個非常基本上位的法案基本法我們再問一次想問周偉一下那個逐條我們是依照葛如君的版本還是徐主席的版本還是林益謹的版本我們有總共的比較我們全部都有比較因為文字差距很大耶沒有很大沒有很大嗎"},{"start":6641.358,"end":6656.801,"text":"國民黨民進黨都是八成五以上一樣AI比對過了然後這個全部的版本高達七成是相似的好不好不是關鍵字順序我們都有整理出來順序那這樣兩岸只要差一條後面全部都不一樣就是相似度百分之零不是吧"},{"start":6665.643,"end":6670.818,"text":"秀保委員講的很有道理這好像因為我們審法條件未來就是主監督嘛"},{"start":6672.28,"end":6700.681,"text":"好 翻译委员翻译完毕吗就是我觉得如果是交通委员会的召委来安排的话那未来这个监督跟修法一致性全策也比较能够追究啊翻译委员翻译完毕那我想我们立院相关的议事人员呢都有整理得非常完整都有每一个条文的顺序的差异还有这个相关的文字内容我们都整理好了都也都在各位桌上好 那我们就逐条好不好我们不讨论了"},{"start":6701.994,"end":6722.568,"text":"我們最後一個意見表達謝謝主席最後一個我剛剛聽到修保委員他提到一個很重要的點就是我剛剛第一次發言的時候我有表達說其實我也確實就一個原住民族的立場"},{"start":6723.749,"end":6738.285,"text":"我也很希望有一步伐來約束目前的一個AI人工的發展但是我要談的就是我看到這個主管機關奇異性很大沒有共識"},{"start":6739.997,"end":6765.283,"text":"那我要談的是說剛才秀寶委員提醒一點因為突然速發就接招了那我自己在立法院的這一段時間當中有一部法原住民很重視叫做原住民主學校法但是從第十屆的第一會期拿出來排審擱置至今也是因為主管機關喬布隆"},{"start":6767.523,"end":6782.453,"text":"所以我覺得對待我們的原住民族學校法只是因為原民會教育部主管機關推來推去也不知道每一次都跟我們說去內政委員會排審有時候跟我們說要在教文委員會排審"},{"start":6783.374,"end":6808.664,"text":"那我覺得剛剛秀寶他提醒這個很重要的一件事那我覺得其實大家的整個討論當中起義性最大最沒有共識的就是主管機關所以我必須要表達這個意見那也希望這個意見未來能夠在我們的原住民族學校法也能夠被討論看見好那我們還有沒有意見如果沒有我們就主條好不好好那我們就主條提供其個人資料"},{"start":6810.12,"end":6824.987,"text":"好 OK沒有異議沒有異議好審計三秒沒有異議好那關於這個提案我們就通過那我們主條第一案因為剛才提到的意見都跟主條立刻就可以討論到了好"},{"start":6826.548,"end":6855.162,"text":"那我們針對第一個法案名稱那我們看到以上14案裡面有13案名稱是一樣的人工智慧基本法草案那有一案是人工智慧發展及管理條例草案那我想我們是不是建議就以比較多的為主還是怎麼樣 有沒有意見好 沒有意見那我們就依人工智慧基本法草案作為這個名稱那趙 葛如君 邱若驊 羅廷偉 萬美玲"},{"start":6860.912,"end":6877.55,"text":"謝謝主席 因為剛才我在第二輪的回答當中有去提到說我們人工智慧發展管理條例草案最重要的意思就在於說它目前是因應到台灣的發展是以應用為主"},{"start":6878.331,"end":6901.398,"text":"那因此這個部分我們是希望能夠保留本黨團的意見是希望能夠保留名稱但是依照最後所呈現出來的一個法案的主條討論出來的一個結果再回去看這邊部分我希望說現在暫時保留這樣的方式來處理希望得到委員的部分就是說名稱這個我們剛剛最後部分因為最後的部分的時候是什麼樣子目前都還在討論這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":6903.038,"end":6925.009,"text":"好謝謝劉淑冰委員發言那我想法案名稱我們就保留送院會處理好那第一張張名呢有賴世寶委員有寫總則台灣民眾黨黨團也有寫總則那這個這樣子算起來有12案呢是沒有總則的那我們有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":6926.325,"end":6946.398,"text":"好 許志傑委員您的是沒有總責的對 謝謝其實這一個案子我們在交通委員會也討論了很久那這一個地方的主管機關當然在委會這邊不好意思 趙偉那是第二條第二條會討論到 謝謝"},{"start":6949.748,"end":6965.801,"text":"我們現在是在討論第一章張明現在已經進入第一條了對 總則那您的版本是沒有總則那賴思寶委員有總則台灣民眾黨黨團是有總則我們現在那您剛剛提的這個意見可以在第二條立刻就可以提出想法"},{"start":6967.436,"end":6981.26,"text":"那主席因為您本黨有總則那這部分我想說說也是一併處理好嗎好那我們就這個第一張章名呢我們就保留送院會處理好那我們接下來進入第一條那第一條呢我們來"},{"start":6990.576,"end":6997.64,"text":"每個人都有版本那這個是他的目的啦 立法目的那關於這一條有沒有意見 好 柯資恩委員"},{"start":7004.184,"end":7030.618,"text":"我觉得第一条虽然大家版本的用词那个wording是不一样不过它最主要的立法的目的是要纳入数位平权的一个概念然后我想很多的委员不管国民党还是民进党委员这个时候在写第一条的时候都是遵照在国科会当初所立定的部分只是在词意上面有不一样所以请主席稍微看一下如果说大家觉得因为我光是看第一页当中杨求宇委员的版本跟葛如君的版本还有后面"},{"start":7032.3,"end":7043.474,"text":"這個許志傑的版本等等你會看到他們的字句其實都大同小異就只是一個蘇慧平權所以是不是在這個WORDING部分大家把它改好一點我覺得第一條是可以得到最大的共識的好不好好"},{"start":7048.46,"end":7071.586,"text":"我看其實像萬美玲委員也有提到國家文化價值那招委林一錦招委也有提到文化價值確實是非常有共性的那國民生活福祉等等那許宇珍委員也有提到國家文化價值那許志傑委員的"},{"start":7073.562,"end":7080.845,"text":"是 也是有提到國家主權 文化價值其實第一條是幾乎一樣是有共識的好 那我頂而已啦 謝謝張雅琳委員 再來吳佩儀委員好 謝謝"},{"start":7097.685,"end":7113.05,"text":"我想這個可能也不是只有Warding啦我覺得這個基本的立法的概念上面就有點不太一樣因為像葛國軍委員是為建設智慧國家這個目的性是為了建設智慧國家而是因為國歌會或是其他像張家俊委員的版本或是邱若驊委員的版本"},{"start":7113.41,"end":7135.695,"text":"它是促進以人為本不該侵害人的生命財產等等等等以及要提升這個國家的永續發展和競爭力我覺得這個在開宗明義上面就有差異啦所以我是認為這一條上面我們應該還是要再做一些釐清到底是要以建設智慧國家呢還是以人為本這個來做這一條的這個的終止這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":7139.656,"end":7167.746,"text":"好吳佩儀委員然後待會兒郭玉琴委員您請召委在第一條當中其實我們就看到很多版本在他的這個法到底是基本法還是作用法還是特別法其實就相當的差異很大並不如剛剛所說的只是文字差異我舉例而言林倩琪委員吳宗憲委員賴世寶委員楊瓊英委員還有民眾黨委員的版本在第一條第一段最後都有定說"},{"start":7169.386,"end":7196.133,"text":"這個本法就是為規定者適用其他法律之規定這個就是指說變成這一條AI我們現在這條法變成有優先適用性這個就是特別法的特性啦這跟我們剛剛講的基本法又不一樣然後民政黨黨團版本的第一條這個最後一段有說對於軍事用途所發展之人工智慧不是用本法之規定就是如果它是基本法不是作用法的話就不涉及到監管"},{"start":7197.173,"end":7212.01,"text":"所以其實根本也不需要特別去寫說要排除軍事用途所以我認為其實這根本就沒有共識所以以第一條而言的話我具體建議就是保留那郭玉琴委員我們保留宋協商還是郭玉琴委員您先發言您剛剛有舉手"},{"start":7215.305,"end":7232.359,"text":"於應用前執政的活動不適用前向應用責任相關規範以利技術進行我們看到這個第一條包含像吳宗憲委員的一個版本他說特制定本法然後本法為規定者適用其他法律之規定"},{"start":7232.879,"end":7254.987,"text":"然後再來像葛如君委員召委的一個版本其實是為了要建設智慧國家那我想這個還有部分的是講說要以人為本那我想這個第一條應該是整部法律的一個精神所在啦可是現在其實我們光是這短短的幾行文字都會出現各個不同的一個版本那我想這個台灣又是一個多元多語的一個"},{"start":7256.207,"end":7281.446,"text":"社會喔其實光是這個部分我們其實就覺得除了剛剛這些東西我們是不是也要再加強民主國家可推動可信任的AI的一個治理基礎那我想這個這個部分光第一條其實大家的意見都這麼多是不是應該要先保留啊好謝謝我們召委林益錦召委然後再來許志杰委員然後范雲委員好謝謝召委大家好"},{"start":7283.318,"end":7308.055,"text":"現在美國他們日本他們訂的AI基本法是比較嚴格比較寬鬆他訂一個概念這個概念其實不是去管那麼多的細節那現在就是其他委員的版本就是有些是比較屬於偏美日這一邊的概念那有一邊是比較偏英國他們那邊的概念"},{"start":7309.519,"end":7335.038,"text":"那事實上就是說其實我們這個基本主張其實就不太一樣那現在世界上各個不同的國家的主張也都還不太一樣大家都還在摸索當中所以我是建議說這一個其實我們還是保留不要有結論因為現在這個結論出去了恐怕將來整個世界的潮流怎麼轉變你不知道"},{"start":7336.139,"end":7343.062,"text":"所以我主張這一條,我們還是沒有共識,還是要保留我們剛剛講說什麼70%一樣,這就是一個量的概念,沒有看到值的差異啊"},{"start":7352.006,"end":7367.398,"text":"就是我們剛講的到底他在譬如說民眾黨這是一個作用法還是基本法那然後他的目的是智慧國家還是以人為本的相關的應用保障一些權益這其實精神上就像我們剛說的你是走一個"},{"start":7367.938,"end":7393.527,"text":"歐盟的路線然後現在英國也喊卡然後歐盟也有部分的條文就是希望能夠暫停下來主要就是在這裡面的一個衝突那到底對台灣來講譬如說我們有個資法那這個部分到底是變成優先適用這個部分還是它只是一個基本的原則那其他我們的個資法等等還是要保障一些人權就是相關的"},{"start":7395.789,"end":7409.224,"text":"就是 意旨我想這部分就是有蠻大的衝突所以這不是只是說大家都講平權那事實上剛剛主席召委沒有提到的林英錦委員還特別強調的國家的主權"},{"start":7411.266,"end":7438.415,"text":"那這個重要的概念在有些委員的版本中就沒有所以我覺得這個光從這個第一條就看到很大的差異那我也要提一下就是剛剛有委員講到好像不提這個基本法就沒有在發展這是一個很大的一個誤導就是我們應該要問的是哪件事情我們要關心的譬如說速發部沒有在做國科會沒有在做還是教育部沒有在做而不要誤導大家說現在就是"},{"start":7440.095,"end":7459.523,"text":"行政沒有這個版本就是沒有在做哪些事還是回來講其實我之前也有版本那為什麼我現在沒有提那就是因為目前這個方向其實我們看到的一些值得學習的民主國家都還在猶豫當中那我想這是一個很大的問題譬如說我之前也有質詢過"},{"start":7461.304,"end":7472.294,"text":"就是速發部還有國科會文化部據說CHAT GBT這個部分跟版權之間的衝突怎麼解決那這也是我們相關的文化產業非常關心的問題這個版權我們在第15條也有提到"},{"start":7476.698,"end":7502.637,"text":"那我想這一條第一條啦本條為立法目的其實各版本差異真的不大本席的版本呢是特別強調數位平權那民進黨委員有強調國家主權也好或者是文化價值也好那我們其實有跟速發部溝通啦速發部有表示同意本席的版本那或者是不表示意見那這個若是在場委員有特別意見要納入立法目的的文字可以請速發部現在同"},{"start":7503.177,"end":7527.512,"text":"同枕各個版本提出建議版文字給各位委員參考各位一邊同枕那個我想那次講的是說我不表示意見不表示特別意見因為我知道這個差異好好 所以速發部對第一條不表示特別意見好 那我想我們這一條是不是就保留送院會處理好我們前面都是保留送院會處理"},{"start":7530.322,"end":7546.339,"text":"我們前面都是保留送 反正名稱保留送宴會處理第一張張名保留送宴會處理然後現在第一條是保留送宴會處理我們現在保留是委員會之後還要再寫一條啊"},{"start":7547.296,"end":7572.232,"text":"不能直接送委員會處理啊保留協商我們是保留委員會還要再協商啊後續那個黨團還要再協商委員會的結論啊對啊不是直接送委員會處理啊保留送委員會協商保留協商好保留協商委員區委員長二十人提案第十一好沒有轉總好"},{"start":7575.518,"end":7598.84,"text":"謝謝范雲委員也謝謝各位先進前輩那我想我們法案名稱我們保留宋協商第一張章名保留宋協商第一條也保留宋協商那前面我們剛剛是唸宋院會處理那現在是全部宋協商根據風險分級評估前在座點擊"},{"start":7600.965,"end":7607.974,"text":"那你提升人工智慧決策這個問題是要做什麼?送出委員會協商啊"},{"start":7609.305,"end":7632.477,"text":"送出委員會協商喔?沒有錯,召委我補充一下啦其實各委員會都一樣啦,不講哪一邊今天保留我們就送出委員會那一個月冷凍期一個月冷凍期完畢之後由召委可以再由委員會名義召集一次的黨團協商黨團協商完沒有共識可以再送給院長院長再召集黨團協商"},{"start":7633.658,"end":7658.63,"text":"那院長召集黨員協商也沒有共識的話在院會處理但通常我覺得這基本法部分那個時候我們希望在委員會協商的時候速發布就可以提出院的版本好不好好我這裡再界定一下因為我想我們教育委員會雖然有這個傳統但是在議事規則上面我確實這裡我們就是保留送院會處理但是院會會教"},{"start":7660.231,"end":7689.335,"text":"教我們來做黨團協商那我們委員會可能會召開黨團會召開這我想我們就照過去的慣例來處理啦那我文字上我想因為議事委員給我的是保留送院會處理那我想大家都理解這個意思我們就一起同意好不好因為協商也是院會讓我們請交下來請我們協商好不好好 謝謝那我想我再"},{"start":7693.686,"end":7717.904,"text":"我是建議昭緯你就先講保留因為像我們過去有很多條文在第一回合討論完之後回來也許會有共識啊不是現在就總不會送一半送幾條去院會吧你就先保留就可以了啊那到最後再決定是要怎麼處理啊學夫法我們後來就在柯志恩昭緯的協調下我們在委員會就解決啦好啦"},{"start":7720.559,"end":7728.229,"text":"保留送出委員會啊暫保留"},{"start":7731.443,"end":7755.006,"text":"你現在就保留送協商就好了因為我們之前都會一輪兩輪就是保留送協商嘛協商委員會會先協商嘛那客戶司可以再來處理決定要不要怎麼對 你先保留好 那我們就保留好 那我們就保留先保留那我們法案名稱保留第一張張名保留第一條保留好 那我們現在第二條吳宗憲"},{"start":7756.557,"end":7778.79,"text":"那我想第二條剛剛各個委員也都充分發表意見了,我們就保留吧。那我們在此還是說明一下,就是這個相關也希望我們能夠更快的有共識,這個發展創新,當然也要兼顧我們的風險分類,有這個台灣價值台灣模式。"},{"start":7779.77,"end":7795.563,"text":"那我們再來進入第三條第三條我想大家也都差異不大那也是"},{"start":7797.199,"end":7811.972,"text":"非常感謝國科會當時有做整理張雅琳委員謝謝因為其實呢在第三條裡面我自己的想法是說因為其實每個人在定義人工智慧上面包含像林倩琪委員定義的非常的精細然後包含或者是說像葛無菌委員這時候寫說"},{"start":7813.653,"end":7839.782,"text":"以機器為基礎的系統於不同程度下之自主性運作可是在秋洛華委員又說據自主運行的能力之系統那我想確認一下我們到底要以哪一個版本因為這看起來是有點落差那再來就是說其實民間也有一些建議就是說我們是要講自主運作嗎因為具完全自主運作能力作為要件恐怕會過度的限制適用的範圍"},{"start":7841.683,"end":7863.279,"text":"是不是應該要來像自動車有不同等級的劃分所以是不是應該要來去做一些增定視為是一定的程度而不是直接寫自主運作所以有兩個問題到底是以哪一個版本來討論然後第二個就是說在現在如果是自主性運作的話我們是不是應該要增加一定程度好 謝謝"},{"start":7872.684,"end":7887.892,"text":"因為第三條我們看到比方說像葛如君昭委你剛剛有講這個不同程度的自主性跟可能展現適應性這些字眼看起來好像很完整但是在法律的操作上會不會容易有更多的解釋空間"},{"start":7888.712,"end":7903.188,"text":"然後另外像剛剛這個林倩琦會民眾黨的版本他們也試圖要把這些所謂的技術跟名詞來做定義那他寫說這個監督是學習知識庫推理引擎什麼優化演算等等"},{"start":7903.769,"end":7932.3,"text":"那這看起來好像很齊全可是不要忘了現在寫死這些詞這個三年後的技術可能馬上就會被淘汰了所以現在以前大家都在講說什麼機器學習現在要講什麼深層式的AI強化學習等等但是問題是我們從這個國際的經驗看就不管是在他們的建議我們應該定義要聚焦在它的功能性跟風險性而不是這些名詞的細節性這是以上我的建議以上"},{"start":7933.901,"end":7954.018,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員那這個這一個我同意就第三條剛剛前面大家提到的因為是基本法然後我們主要是要來支持AI的運作機制所以不要訂到太細節所以這一條我是比較支持林怡瑾跟許志傑委員的版本啦"},{"start":7954.338,"end":7982.119,"text":"就是說舊AI主要的運作機制來訂定就好了不要進到太細節這個有可能會限縮到將來它應用的空間好 那我們魯明哲委員也到場有要發言嗎還是羅金鶴委員有舉手好 羅金鶴委員因為這一條我覺得是大家都寫得非常用心那當然有人寫得很精細所以我覺得還是有一些差異那我是建議要保留"},{"start":7982.839,"end":7997.172,"text":"那魯明哲委員謝謝好張雅玲委員然後是許智傑委員然後徐富奎委員要發言嗎沒有好所以張雅玲委員許智傑委員劉書斌委員范雲委員好那我們簡短發表意見"},{"start":8008.303,"end":8026.417,"text":"我想確認一件事情因為我們這個是AI基本法可是我們把這一條人工智慧的定義放在第三是不是應該要把它放在第二因為應該要開宗明義就延續著第一條的概念下來先定在第二條然後再定到它的主管機關這個是我的建議可以考慮剛剛有許志杰委員 謝謝謝謝主席我覺得我們在討論這裡都有一點"},{"start":8035.868,"end":8041.633,"text":"我剛剛一開始就提到全世界各國現在都有兩派兩大派"},{"start":8042.89,"end":8068.036,"text":"不同的角度那我們的角度就是像我的版本的角度就是監管比較寬鬆不要那麼嚴格的定太細那包括林憲起還有其他國民黨委員就是你們是定比較細我覺得我們一條一條在這邊討論這些東西其實全世界各國都還沒都還在摸索台灣要這麼急著把這些東西都定死嗎"},{"start":8069.467,"end":8088.254,"text":"所以我是認為說其實這一點我們還是保留啦其實還是暫緩我們看全世界的潮流我們要怎麼樣去拿捏一個最好的方式再來做最後的確定所以後面其實每一條全部都類似啦所以我是建議還是保留謝謝"},{"start":8090.476,"end":8094.26,"text":"第三條是指的是人工智慧的一些定義不過我們也參考到是說本黨裡面的這個意見當中就是把這個"},{"start":8108.214,"end":8126.234,"text":"人工智慧相關的這個系統它的一個定義就把它列出來包括人工智慧人工智慧產業巨量資料個人資料還有人工智慧安全這部分相關的部分把在這樣的一個第三條屬於一個定義的部分把它呈現出來那我們希望能夠保留謝謝好謝謝范議員謝謝"},{"start":8131.919,"end":8156.992,"text":"這條我的意見跟許智傑委員剛剛講的非常的就是一樣其實應該要以儉遇反因為如果你太細緻的去處理各個定義的話日新月異就如同我們剛剛講的我們一兩年前可能覺得我們要盡速立法可是現在看到歐盟跟英國都有一些不同的聲音英國甚至停下來暫緩去"},{"start":8158.973,"end":8181.701,"text":"就是列這個去提這個基本法等等那我覺得那歐盟他的操作如果是作用法的話歐盟的很多的指引也沒有出來就是因為變化太快了那我想我們應該要問的是說大家想要發展的話應該是全民共識是不分黨派的那有哪些部會哪些事情沒有在做那如果今天就一定要繼續"},{"start":8183.762,"end":8206.423,"text":"審這個法案的話那第三條我比較支持許智傑委員林盈菁委員跟邱英委員的一個比較以儉遇凡的版本那我想在這個時間點上一定要立的話那是這樣子那我要提一下為什麼我沒有提我的版本就是因為這個變化太大了光是這個月我們就看到英國暫緩就是提出立他們的版本那這是重要的一個考量"},{"start":8207.243,"end":8234.101,"text":"好 謝謝 林錦昭委謝主席喔我是第二條啦齁因為我沒有這個主管機關的很多人的第二條是主管機關我沒有這個主管機關的第二條所以是你們的第三條我的第二條那是有關於定義那當然看起來各版本有差不多的共通點那我就點"},{"start":8236.043,"end":8255.524,"text":"簡單點出來的第一個就是自主性的系統第二個要經過感測或輸入第三個就是能夠影響實體或虛擬環境第四個是有目標的產生預測內容建議或決策那我想到這裡大家應該都還同意那可是確切的文字描述因為我的版本跟許智傑的"},{"start":8256.984,"end":8272.55,"text":"委員的版本是比較一致的我想如果就文字而言如果速發部沒有辦法提供比較相對確切的文字的話那是不是我覺得我跟許志傑委員的版本其實是可以比較"},{"start":8273.79,"end":8295.889,"text":"就是我認為會比較妥適了以上好謝謝那我想第二條我們就因為大家都有意見都有意義那有不同的想法我們就第二條就保留那待會第三條不好意思我們就第三條就保留那接下來我們各條如果有意義的話有意見我們就直接保留好"},{"start":8296.63,"end":8313.85,"text":"那我們接下來第二章的章名那一樣我們賴思寶委員有一個章名叫發展與促進那台灣民眾黨黨團人工智慧發展之基本原則那有沒有意義好有意義我們就保留好那接下來第四條"},{"start":8315.091,"end":8335.103,"text":"那第四條呢,是這個我們剛剛提到,就是有非常多人關注我們的這個不管是原住民的福祉、國民的這個發展,還有兒少等等,其實第四條各個委員都有非常多的這個設定,包含這個張家俊委員有提到人類自主,"},{"start":8335.743,"end":8359.224,"text":"那這個民進黨 台灣民眾黨團呢有考量到身心障礙者 高齡者 兒童那許智傑召委呢也有提到隱私資料保護的機敏性 永續性 公平性那剛剛這個像邱怡穎委員也有提到這個跟許智傑委員相似的想法他也有提到公平與不歧視"},{"start":8360.305,"end":8384.097,"text":"那吳宗憲委員呢也非常重視的是安全原則保障人民的生命身體自由財產安全包容原則就有多元性嘛多元包容所以其實我想這條第四條的部分其實速發部是應該是沒有特別意見吧我們這條"},{"start":8390.033,"end":8399.546,"text":"我們這個是有意見表達意見是不是那我想我們有意見的話我們就保留我覺得我還是有必要幫團體來發聲因為這是團體的意見簡短發言好不好"},{"start":8403.01,"end":8425.924,"text":"好 因為其實我之所以沒有提出我的版本是因為我們一直都在跟團體一直不停的討論但是因為團體針對這一條是有意見的齁而上團體認為我們應該要增訂第一項的第八款雖然說大家在各個的條文裡面有提到兒童但是其實兒童裡面有一個最佳性的最佳利益原則應該要被名列在這件事情讓大家在做一些相關的應用的時候不會去影響"},{"start":8426.624,"end":8446.911,"text":"或是犧牲到兒少最佳利益所以他們希望在這一條裡面增訂第八款是人工智慧研發與應用涉及兒少時應以兒少利益為原則預防心理隱私人格權數位剝削及其他潛在侵害並應提供符合其年齡之適當保護措施與資訊揭露這是團體的建議范雲委員 劉淑檳委員"},{"start":8455.054,"end":8478.57,"text":"這個部分我也是特別的覺得就是跟歧視相關的部分明文化很重要那因為我們這個三四五條都有相關的就是談到就是跟歧視的部分我就一起講那我想我們這一次就是說如果在AI基本法裡面應該要定下這些原則性的避免歧視也要有性平的觀點那我舉例來講全國歷史聯合會就建議"},{"start":8485.275,"end":8510.009,"text":"那必須在條文中或至少在立法理由裡面要提出哪些特定群體譬如說身心障礙、原住民、婦女、多元性別等等以避免未來條文解釋上的歧義那另外這是實質內容的部分我覺得蠻重要的那另外我也建議召委如果我們每條都保留的話我是建議就是說這樣子"},{"start":8510.689,"end":8539.099,"text":"有點 還是要實質討論啊要不然你到時候你不管是送到我們委員會的協商那到時候能到的人也比較少或者是你要送到黨團協商那這樣子我們教文委員跟交通委員我們的實質意見都沒有機會表達欸那我想我們教文委員過去都是實質在討論的我們從來不會有一個就是法案是每條都保留然後就這樣子審下去上次我們在那個 不會一直記不記得我們後來就留在委員會中"},{"start":8540.279,"end":8566.517,"text":"那就是说如果每条都保留那我们送出去给党团协商真的很不负责任因为我们是最能够对实质的不管是交通委员或者教育委员表达意见的人那我们不去处理条文的差异就保留然后最后每条都保留我是觉得这样子不太好以上我简短回应一下首先我们保留如果有协商其实也还是可以做讨论完整的讨论第二我们先前也有完整的讨论"},{"start":8567.378,"end":8591.204,"text":"第三我想這個我們連第一章的這個總則我們前面全部都是我們都有希望能夠有共識但是如果我們連這個相關的這個連這個第一章的章名可能都沒有共識的話我想這個也許保留就是他需要處理的方法那我們接下來請劉書斌委員謝謝"},{"start":8597.929,"end":8607.821,"text":"謝謝主席那民眾黨這個部分呢我想要提出來一個問題因為在這個基本法當中沒有看到職權的部分"},{"start":8609.142,"end":8609.302,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":8640.543,"end":8644.566,"text":"那我希望說如果大家有共識的話其實就是可以把我們這邊也放進去"},{"start":8661.838,"end":8677.125,"text":"也許是看到整個狀況是不是那麼的詳細但是可能有些部分可以把它放進去就在標題的呈現內容當中可以放入就這樣子所以也希望說有保留但是我真的希望說能夠針對職權的部分大家真的要考慮一下是不是已經疏漏了"},{"start":8678.066,"end":8696.068,"text":"謝謝無費議委員第一個我是想要提這個程序的問題我希望這個會議的主持要中立因為像剛剛這一條本來召委是沒有要開放討論但是您個人在主持的當中其實就發表很多您個人的意見所以我希望原則要一致"},{"start":8696.428,"end":8709.804,"text":"要不然就是大家都不要意見但是要不然就大家都來討論第二點剛剛蕭委所說這個之前很多都討論過但是今天再發言再討論也沒有共識所以你認為要保留這前半部分我是同意的那也就是為什麼我們剛剛主張說這個應該之後再來進逐條"},{"start":8713.168,"end":8740.329,"text":"因為就是差異很大就說我們剛剛前面第一條 第二條 第三條呈現出來的都是再討論也沒有共識嘛就是說今天版本差異真的很大並不是說只是文字的差異而已所以我們剛剛才會主張不要進到主條但是既然要進到主條你又以說因為差異太大所以再討論也沒共識所以每一條都要保留所以不討論這個我覺得前後是矛盾的所以我希望大家還是可以再重新思考一下就是剛剛許智傑委員很多人都提到了"},{"start":8740.629,"end":8763.919,"text":"其實大家的版本的不同不是指在於文字的差異而是它的這個立法的體系到底我們是希望規範多一點還是說這個知識發展多一點到底是基本法還是作用法還是特別法這個我們前面沒有共識的話我們每一條都會進入到剛剛這樣子就是沒有辦法有共識我希望大家可以再三思啦好 謝謝吳佩儀委員"},{"start":8764.679,"end":8776.861,"text":"那我相信後續說不定還有機會啦因為有一些速發部是有表達意見的也許我們還有機會可以來通過那我們第四條就保留那待會一樣那我們這個第五條那第五條呢大家關注的主要是這個"},{"start":8791.138,"end":8802.206,"text":"可能有多元的包容啦就是針對多元包容跟不同的條件這個基本上是接近數位平權的概念"},{"start":8804.008,"end":8821.783,"text":"那大家其實反而這一條的相似度是非常高的只有WORDING那我們是期待速發部可以整合出一個版本那速發部對第五條有沒有要表示特別意見或者是要協助整合因為這個包容其實就都包進去的話就是最包容的我們有"},{"start":8830.441,"end":8853.506,"text":"好 那我們就領請召委 郭巨型委員跟柯志恩委員 謝謝這個第五條 當然是葛維軍召委的第五條可是是我的第十三條 是許志傑召委的第十四條所以這個整個法 這個條次的安排 其實是歧義性很大好 那我們來說這一條的內容 就是有關於平等與保障"},{"start":8854.366,"end":8874.052,"text":"那我是認為當然優先考量身心障礙者、高齡者跟兒童及其他需要協助族群的權益這是參考學界的意見來的那我看其他委員的版本當然也都有類似的文字誠如葛昭偉所說的這個條文的內容確實是"},{"start":8879.073,"end":8898.439,"text":"大同小異可是就調次來講就調次來講是很大的歧義所以我是覺得整部法我還是堅持說如果有院版出來那醫院版的調次因為整個調次的安排是有整個的法理可循那有這個體力可循"},{"start":8898.959,"end":8912.076,"text":"所以我覺得這個條次的不同然後怎麼安排這個確實是對一個法案是非常重要的那當然就內容來講如果就平等於保障這個弱勢的保護這點我覺得看起來是有共識的以上"},{"start":8913.372,"end":8937.466,"text":"謝謝有共識好那那個郭玉琴委員剛剛有舉手發言然後再來柯志恩委員好我想這個第五條因為在強調這個數位平權的部分那剛剛就像怡心委員講的其實就是調適的部分其實有的人是放在第十三條那我就這個葛國軍召委跟羅廷偉版本他寫說機會平等的基本人權宣誓"},{"start":8938.246,"end":8965.904,"text":"但是問題是這個裡面沒有講所謂的實質的做法那當然我們講保障平等這是一定是必要的可是不是光只寫說依法令辦理或者是依法令特別保障好像感覺就已經OK了這個其實也會造成所謂的在執行的時候其實那個落差還是會更大那我們怎麼樣讓那個弱勢的族群在這個政策制定的時候有發生的一個空間才是真正能夠落實這個AI數位平權"},{"start":8968.446,"end":8992.715,"text":"那我想如果要针对所谓的高龄者啦或者是原住民啦或者是身障者来推动所谓的这个AI辅助的一个科技那我想呢这个部分我们可能还要再强化还要再更细项啦那就刚刚这个移行委员也特别讲的调次跟内容其实大家都放在不同的地方我们要怎么样今天会让它有共识所以我真的不知道这个主条到底是在讨论什么好 以上"},{"start":8993.075,"end":9015.421,"text":"好 柯志文委员其实好我们先从内容来说好了这个移警委员的部分跟葛如君的部分其实你们都完全展现了平等跟保障只是葛如君的版本里面又多了一个原住民他的包容度还有他的范围的界定其实是更完整的所以大家其实可以来做一个考虑所以提到调词就再一次的"},{"start":9016.061,"end":9041.815,"text":"图显院板的确是很重要那今天为什么会做到这样的程度就是左等右等没有院板所以说赵伟最主要目的是透过这样子你说他没有意义吗他还是有意义啊因为他到时候到时候我们真的有院板来的时候我们今天所谈论大家的一个想法其实都可以提供在院板过程当中给大家说法的一个非常重要的一个考量否则没有的话没有这个步骤的话"},{"start":9042.515,"end":9070.561,"text":"我们要等到什么时候所以我觉得有些时候委员会可以促使这个行政单位的部分里面更能够加速他们这样子的一个运作所以以回到这个调次当然因为像目前没有院版所以调次的确有很大的一个分歧但是在内容的程度当中的话比对几个重要的版本我个人觉得就是在这个族群的层面里面特别把原住民放进去其他的部分里面其实都可以得到非常高的一个共识的"},{"start":9075.431,"end":9087.109,"text":"這裡面沒有放到婦女跟多元性別那只有葛國軍委員用性別可是你可以看到林益菁委員跟許志堅委員的意旨跟葛國軍委員不太一樣"},{"start":9087.589,"end":9111.857,"text":"林一鈞委員跟徐志傑是說要優先考量所以他是把一些群體的權益覺得是特別弱勢要特別拉出來的那跟董如君委員是像憲法的寫法無分什麼什麼什麼一律都要平等接近是不太一樣的所以我們到底是要採一個優先特別要考量特別的弱勢還是就是把所有想到的差異譬如說邱瑩委員還有針對偏鄉對不對傳統產業那又是不同的一個寫法"},{"start":9117.219,"end":9133.674,"text":"那我想問的是說那速發部或者是國歌會有沒有既有的研究告訴我們在這個AI的發展的過程中哪些群體是特別有弱勢然後沒有接近到的因為我們有一些調查的基礎才能夠知道在這裡"},{"start":9134.335,"end":9151.749,"text":"我是要走怡君委員跟許智傑委員的方向把一些特別弱勢的比如說是身心障礙高齡者兒童這是怡君委員跟許智傑的寫法還是要針對葛國軍委員人無分性別年齡等等等等那要不要再把邱毅英委員的偏鄉怎麼拉進來那這總要有一個一個一個實證研究吧"},{"start":9154.471,"end":9172.242,"text":"否則我們就是在這邊就是窮盡一切嗎那然後我們是要優先保障某些弱勢還是走一個無分什麼的一律平等的一個抽象性的原則的寫法我覺得這個差異就蠻大的待會我會請那個速發部或是主管機關發言但是要不要許智傑委員要先發言還是我們就讓部會官員好許智傑委員謝謝謝謝主持人"},{"start":9182.998,"end":9212.264,"text":"剛剛那個柯政委員提到說我們這個委員會可以讓行政單位不要怠惰要趕快啦其實這邊有一篇文就是世界有一篇文章那個Guardian然後The Verge還有那個幾個來源其實這邊提到的重點我是覺得讓各位思考一下啦為觀察美國AI政策走向英國延後推動AI監督法案"},{"start":9214.344,"end":9239.981,"text":"再來就是說英國到底想要什麼樣的AI法案呢這邊有兩個概念一個就是說歐盟面對時事壓力考慮延後部分法規生效然後當然美國這個比較寬鬆的法案也有引起美國預算法案長10年AI監管法令引發廣泛反彈這個就是說他們比較專業的雜誌表達這個意見我有大家做參考啦就是說你現在"},{"start":9244.383,"end":9265.865,"text":"美國跟歐盟兩大系統的觀念不一樣到底是怎樣最好其實現在這AI變化這麼快速我們是在抓說要怎樣最好結果現在這世界兩大系統都已經抓不出來要怎樣最好已經有紛爭了你現在叫數位部、數法部推出一個版本出來他推出來他也不知道要用哪一個還是說要怎樣平衡"},{"start":9267.699,"end":9282.443,"text":"所以我是覺得這個法案坦白講我是認為大家真的不要急啦就是說我比較主張其實全難保留下次再組條那這個當然就是說看世界的發展的動態怎麼樣我們來做一個根據台灣文化還是說根據世界潮流可以拿捏一個平衡點現在我們每個人沒有一個人說的準就是說誰說的是對的啦"},{"start":9295.598,"end":9323.214,"text":"所以我是建議說其實你乾脆全案保留那下次再組條那當然就是說樹花部要很積極的去看這個世界上的動態到底會怎麼走我們其實台灣當然我們科技很強啦但是台灣也沒有這麼偉大說我就是世界走第一啦所以這個部分我是認為說大家真的可以考慮一下世界的潮流而不是你跟我我們幾個人在這邊決定就把它定下來我是這麼認為"},{"start":9325.831,"end":9346.077,"text":"好 我很快強調說實在的這個AI基本法當初是責成我們國科會國科會花了非常多時間他們有非常多的專家學者所以他們花了很多時間擬定了這樣一個基本的一個條例才給我們我們才看到如果像許智杰委員說 安宮是在野僅僅是英國都覺得說目前為止不適合"},{"start":9349.578,"end":9367.576,"text":"我觉得也可以啊行政单位就站出来讲我们配合目前世界的潮流瞬息万变没有办法透过一个法我就行政单位讲一句话忙浪费安素发布跟国客会这样子已经花了这么多时间在这讨论如果觉得现在不合适然后也不就告诉我们嘛"},{"start":9368.197,"end":9377.124,"text":"以目前此時此刻配合世界潮流不適合在這個地方做出這樣的決議我們應該用什麼什麼方法那就不要浪費大家的時間啊這也是吉德洪寬嗎 行政部門講一句話嘛行政部門站出來講一句話 現在不合適這樣看要怎麼樣 這也都是一個方法我們今天就是坐在這個地方要有一個態度 好不好我們對人民做個交代啊 補充一下"},{"start":9394.878,"end":9414.19,"text":"我們是不是讓部會講啊可以嗎許智傑稍微好 那個我想速發部國科會能不能因為其實是有共識的因為這一條我們也怕民眾誤會說我們不去保護他們因為現在沒有一個框架這些人全部都被落後在人工智慧之後"},{"start":9415.236,"end":9433.479,"text":"那是不是速發部跟這個國客會可不可以共同擬出一個共識的條文如果不行也許照柯子惠委員講的你們可以在此對所有的委員全民說此時這個我們不要利益在基本法不宜因為我們這個民進黨委員可能也要跟賴清德"},{"start":9434.5,"end":9449.492,"text":"主席交代因為他是二月講優先法案國民黨委員我們也很早就提案所以我們也非常重視民眾黨他們也非常重視就我們不能讓這個我們現在是在討論多元的範圍好那我們請這個兩個部會好因為我就少講話好部長部長然後待會國會主委那個"},{"start":9457.297,"end":9483.739,"text":"報告委員那個 張偉那個我常委開頭我就講了因為為什麼就是從去年11月多就送院以後一直都沒辦法達成共識就是因為國際有幾個事情在發生一個就是說國際的情勢變化很多第二個是技術變化很快我特別講說當初我們在訂AI基本法的時候那時候只有變式AI還沒有生成式AI"},{"start":9484.139,"end":9504.198,"text":"就聲稱是AI出來後 當初所想的規範都不對所以因為現在甚至可以擁有很多又牽涉到著作權 牽涉到很多隱私的問題所以確實有很多東西因為這些技術產生帶動了很多其他相關法律的問題所以就變成我們在做的時候會產生這樣的一個疑慮現在定 因為未來還有叫做Agentic AI"},{"start":9504.618,"end":9528.596,"text":"代理是AI他會還有機器人這個東西都在出來中所以我要擔心說技術還在快速發展現在是不是稍微觀望一下這是我們當初的想法那第二點就是說國際情勢也在變化因為剛剛講就是國際這幾年尤其是最近川普當選之後他的很多作為讓很多人擔心這個很多時候會不會造成"},{"start":9528.996,"end":9556.845,"text":"很多的問題 相對的問題所以因為我們也在觀察國際的情勢我們已經看到像英國 歐盟已經退步了所以事實上這個就是我們部裡面當初的一個concern所以才說在討論中而且又牽涉到跨部會包括剛剛講兒少 衛福等等的問題都需要跟各部會討論所以這些共識都還沒有完全所以我才會對這個現在定法有點保留"},{"start":9557.125,"end":9584.572,"text":"好 所以部長能不能擬一個共識的條文沒辦法對 這一條 多元的這一條我們現在是在對對對 所以沒有辦法擬嘛因為我們是在這一條底下所以我們要確認因為剛剛柯之恩委員是希望他可以來回應說到底現在是不是適合的時機點好 所以我現在接著就要問了所以我們是不是就不適合那種AI基本法"},{"start":9592.324,"end":9609.119,"text":"讓我們再跟行政院再討論再擇旗再把比較好 請國會主委請吳主委好不好目前是蘇發部主政那國會會協助 國會來協助主委"},{"start":9613.82,"end":9628.754,"text":"不好意思我們是在為國科會過去長期以來擬出這個基本的部分我在幫你們講話你怎麼現在全部都推給蘇發布蘇發布就到目前為止都給我這一份不想去把它做現在也都提不出來我也不曉得壓力在哪裡蘇發布目前為止今天要來開這個會裡面他們給我們就是給我們這張紙"},{"start":9634.639,"end":9659.956,"text":"那国客会是花那么多时间把每个条文都把它弄得清清楚楚你那时候在委员会的时候也不断地告诉我们你们到底做的花了多好的时间等等之类你今天不可以是这个样子你要为你们自己这么多国客会的同仁花了这么多时间然后认为AI这么重要1800亿都给你们你们才是一个最重要的单位怎么现在全部一改就给就是苏法部没有办法所以我们才是认为说"},{"start":9665.179,"end":9672.824,"text":"你應該展現你們自己族委裡面 國發會裡面所該有的爆發力 國發會裡面該有的潛力啊怎麼可以現在完全丟給速發部 速發部要是有辦法的話在2月26號就應該這地方起碼給我們幾條 給我們幾個部分 而不是只有到今天告訴我說瞬息萬變 這麼多 這麼多 這麼多 那你起碼可不可以給我們一下你們現在的進度 到底是如何 給我們看一下根據國科會的這些條文裡面 速發部直跡於國科會的條文裡面做了哪些的修正 做了哪些的部分"},{"start":9693.655,"end":9715.755,"text":"起碼讓我們看到 我覺得這個東西才是一個雙方部會裡面很負責任展現的方法嘛 對不對主委先補充吧 我看你拿麥克風我們還是會依照我們還是會依照行政程序在行政院確定以後會對 因為林議警召委有提到 您是政委"},{"start":9717.745,"end":9733.825,"text":"你是科技政委行政院還在討論當中剛剛那個黃部長有提到那我們還是會依照行政院的指示所以沒有辦法你這個共識條文然後可能現在也就有沒有針對剛剛的這個有沒有意見我沒有意見好那郭玉琴委員"},{"start":9734.666,"end":9757.702,"text":"其实刚刚术发部部长其实已经有讲得很清楚了他说现在是因为科技的瞬息万变所以当然我们还是持续的保持观望跟应变的一个弹性的一个部分来做操作那我想术发部刚刚其实也已经扛起责任了那国科会刚刚也讲得很清楚就是它是协助嘛那我觉得这样子的一个也能够"},{"start":9758.422,"end":9771.656,"text":"也比較明朗啦我們對於所謂的主管因為接著下來要討論的第六條又是跟主管警官有關的嘛那如果在這邊其實已經有共識了那接著下來第六條我們有一個比較共識的我們才知道說以後主管警官要怎麼樣來討論但是問題是今天每一條我們看到剛剛其實也講到"},{"start":9776.921,"end":9800.77,"text":"光是AI的部分它牽扯的不是只有速發部也不是只有國科會它還牽扯到教育部可能衛福部還有文化部還有經濟部甚至還有跟國安有相關的一些部會都有相關所以這並不是說只有在這兩位的部長的身上或者主委的身上而已所以我再次的想調就是說今天我們進到主條其實要有一個方向要有一個共識"},{"start":9801.59,"end":9811.822,"text":"光是竹條剛剛從短短幾行字我們都可以看到有這麼多不同的版本不同的意見那我覺得大家坐在這裡真的我覺得也是辛苦啦但是剛剛其實書發部他已經強調他們已經有要扛起責任的預備了嘛然後國客會也講我是有來輔助嘛因為這個也是我們其實也有"},{"start":9821.292,"end":9844.773,"text":"不是只有這個我們自己委員的版本不一樣那我們自己本身的態度其實也有傾向這樣子的一個這樣子的一個方式那接著下來我們就看嘛就是抒發過他這個時候怎麼樣來提出就是他們的這個跟行政院這邊有沒有什麼樣的願板我們再來進入主條會比較恰當啦好 以上好 謝榮介委員再來許智傑委員"},{"start":9848.087,"end":9869.449,"text":"這是一個快跑衝刺的比賽那如果你還在做馬拉松的準備喔實在是說是比較不好那整個樹花部如果有這個能力國科會就不用協助嘛非常的競爭那面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":9870.882,"end":9891.29,"text":"那有能力的國科會如果你不承擔那如果在內部你硬要弄到樹花鋪來那最後面臨的困難會更多所以這是一個很現實的問題是大家要收聽什麼人要搭有靈略的人你如果不搭"},{"start":9895.698,"end":9908.123,"text":"有領略的人你不搭你到最後 如果今天縱監管那可以給蘇華部如果今天是縱發展那坦白講 閣科會你就是要搭起來這麼簡單 這沒什麼用啦主委 我要講 省擔"},{"start":9912.435,"end":9938.822,"text":"是為國家在搭,不是為某一個東牌在搭嘛為了今生的未來,為了台灣未來三十年的發展在搭嘛對不對啊你說你有什麼要搭,你只要愛他,到底什麼原因,我們不管啦你說啊沒有,如果輸了補啊,我可以來協助,這樣...但是表示你受到很大的委屈,我認為不需要,不需要"},{"start":9941.201,"end":9949.728,"text":"我哪有七折 我在說你七折我的意思 你說我七折別人的意思啊要怎麼七折 我是七折熱情的意思而已這是一個很嚴肅的課題嘛 不然你 總共 大家來拚幣嘛感覺事化部的那個被告課會比較強 我今天講這個我給你回這個嘛 對不對講什麼 聽什麼"},{"start":9970.583,"end":9996.289,"text":"我比較沒聽的算不算聽不一樣你們聽不像我一音 你要怎麼跟人家聽一樣啦許志傑委員謝謝主席我們意見不同 大家都互相尊重沒關係啦因為民主社會就是這樣嘛那當然就是說其實"},{"start":9998.139,"end":10004.665,"text":"我們之前我們提的版本就是比較屬於寬鬆一點啦國民黨的版本其實是比較油啦所以我說大原則是這樣啦當然每一個細節我們就不去論這些細節所以"},{"start":10017.762,"end":10020.808,"text":"我剛才說的是他們國營關卡有,他們現在覺得他們在考慮暫緩,這個不是說什麼人對什麼人不對的問題,是世界條例是這樣造嘛"},{"start":10028.035,"end":10045.784,"text":"所以我建議剛才柯政委員也有問到其實蘇華部他有表達意見現在這個當下其實真的是他要去了解各個部會跟了解各個國家所以速度有比較慢沒有不對現在先暫緩先看世界跟各部會去溝通了看結果差不多是怎樣有一個"},{"start":10053.956,"end":10071.97,"text":"比較好 比較平衡的方向當然要拜託他們趕快把那個官方我們的版本擬出來嘛就是說這個官方版本要不要擬出來 之前我們之前其實 我會覺得說我還是建議就全然保留 將來再組 組條協商啦要不然我們之前在這裡浪費時間每一條都在這裡說這樣不一樣的意見最後還是沒有結論啦我是這樣建議 謝謝"},{"start":10082.639,"end":10099.523,"text":"好我想我還是要這個主席先稍微說明一下因為我們這個條文裡面有非常多是保護弱勢的我們在場也有非常多包含教育部包含法務部包含勞動部包含個人隱私個人資料我們公聽會的時候有非常多的公民團體非常關注我們相關的整體上位的一個態度在沒有上位態度之前確實有可能會出現有人受害的一個狀況所以如果我們現在"},{"start":10114.649,"end":10125.641,"text":"這個沒有辦法提出來的話我想這可能會影響到全民的福祉啦所以我想既然許智傑委員剛剛有提到全案保留送協商那我想我們是不是就全案保留協商"},{"start":10127.654,"end":10154.573,"text":"對啊 剛剛曲思杰委員是這樣講的全案保留到委員會 不是就出委員會 全案保留我們後一天 會當個主條啦啊在我們的行政院齁就是說 蘇花部趕快把這個版本再思考世界各國跟我們不同黨派跟各部會不同的意見看有沒有趕快去凝聚一個比較恰當比較恰當的版本好 剛剛侯孟楷委員 然後再來吳立華這個"},{"start":10157.958,"end":10170.542,"text":"這個討論如果說現在是一年前啦我覺得還可以這樣子來做那是因為一年前的時候就是世界各國是這樣子的處理狀況可是現在已經又過了一年有一些委員在講說英國的狀況請讓我"},{"start":10174.225,"end":10198.785,"text":"請讓我說明一下英國是他現在是專案的地方法規是暫緩沒有錯可是英國早就已經有AI的原則指導而AI原則指導他的內容的含瓜的範圍其實跟我們現在討論的基本法大同小異換言之世界各國其實用基本法的概念都已經有那歐盟更不要講歐盟已經立法2026年要實施"},{"start":10200.566,"end":10228.531,"text":"那我們要比較其實我們台灣也要跟鄰近或是說相似的國家來比較在高科技來講的話哪一些國家跟我們的競爭力或是說跟我們相關是產業是衝突的或是說產業是互相競爭的我想我講南韓大家應該不會有異議吧南韓的高科技跟南韓的人口或是鄰近的部分也跟我們類似南韓他們已經正式AI基本法通過2026年要準備生效"},{"start":10229.693,"end":10254.512,"text":"所以換言之世界各國在這一個領域上面都還是持續的往前走那我想今天還是主要究責的部分我們委員都有提出版本16個版本那行政院的版本在哪裡我們為什麼已經進入到主條第五條了然後結果我們還要再討論再回來有點類似大體討論就是因為你行政部門沒有版本嘛所以我是不是可以拜託我們各委員因為我也有看到一個記者會"},{"start":10255.453,"end":10277.15,"text":"在3月的時候我們有12位綠營的委員都現在坐在這台上的好多委員他們就把AI基本法列為是優先法案啊這是你們的優先法案也是我們的優先法案也是民眾黨的優先法案那現在就只有行政部門沒有不把它當優先法案來看待所以我們現在在討論竹條其實是有意義的第一"},{"start":10277.91,"end":10300.932,"text":"各自委員表述說你認為說哪裡需要加強但是你不需要批評其他委員的版本因為我相信每個委員版本其實都有它的鎖本可是當我們即便是這幾個委員版本到最後都是做保留的話那你行政部門就應該要針對這些委員版本來去綜合出你們的願版當一個月兩個月朝野協商冷凍期"},{"start":10302.182,"end":10313.508,"text":"已經可以來在做協商的時候那那個時候協商的過程裡面願板就一定要出來啊你願板沒有再不出來的理由跟迴避的空間那還有"},{"start":10315.3,"end":10338.435,"text":"對比之前我們幾個法案現在雖然各黨都有很多委員有不同版本但我想大同小異的情況下也拜託各黨在這一個月的協商冷凍期的時候可以回去再去做各自的歸納我想在協商的時候有院版我們各黨團都有各自的歸納的時候其實就會更聚焦那這樣也才能更能更能夠進行而且"},{"start":10339.349,"end":10354.434,"text":"不要忘記我們還是有委員會的協商先進行委員會協商不成之後再來做政黨協商再來做院長召開的政黨協商所以是不是該走還是要走那是不是第五條這邊如果說討論在段落之後召委這邊可以做後續的進行好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":10355.174,"end":10373.246,"text":"好 那我想我們剛剛其實有表達過啦就是有意義我們就保留那我們這一條好 那因為武力華委員剛剛我有點他了我想武力華委員發言完我們這一條就做個決定好 謝謝主席其實我們確實是不論討論到第幾條就會一直打轉又回來"},{"start":10374.808,"end":10394.204,"text":"討論我個人看法是這樣就是主管機關其實像教育基本法文化基本法文化基本法的主管機關也不會寫文化部教育基本法的主管機關也不會寫教育部我的意思是說其實我們現在是因為要找奶爸奶媽"},{"start":10395.345,"end":10400.148,"text":"那好不容易聽到速發部感覺他表態他就是奶爸啊那個國發會是當奶媽那因為這個AI他其實他涉及到各個領域跟各個部會恐怕也不是單一機關就是適合來做主管機關了"},{"start":10414.557,"end":10431.67,"text":"所以我覺得應該是跳脫主管機關的問題而是回到就是奶爸奶爸誰要把這個東西生出來我想我要表達的是這個意思好 謝謝吳立馬委員那我想我們這一條有意義我們剛才已經說過了有意義的條我們就保留那我們接下來進到第六條那第六條"},{"start":10439.093,"end":10464.985,"text":"第六條基本上是對人工智慧可能的風險或不當利用那方針大致一致那有的是稍微寫得比較細一些那有的是賦予政府比較完整的責任"},{"start":10467.571,"end":10495.454,"text":"好那這條有沒有意義那我想這條按照剛剛我們的說法我們如果有意義我們就保留那我們接下來進到第三章的章名我們接下來進第三章的章名好第三章的章名呢是只有也是有賴氏堡委員有提監管與保護那第三章的章名呢這個民眾黨這裡是沒有那基本上大家都是"},{"start":10497.165,"end":10515.105,"text":"有一致那有沒有意義那我們就保留那我們接下來進第7條第7條有沒有意義那我們一樣有意義好就"},{"start":10521.33,"end":10539.104,"text":"因為調次真的是有差別我們現在看起來是依照葛昭偉的調次在走那葛昭偉的第七條就是要有涉國家人工智慧戰略特別委員會"},{"start":10540.325,"end":10545.051,"text":"那我想這個是跟基本法最漢格的地方是說我們現在討論的是基本法不應該再出現這個組織法類型的機關設置的條文內容更何況設置這個特別文匯其實我覺得也應該需要國家長遠的政策規劃才有可能去執行啦"},{"start":10559.269,"end":10584.084,"text":"就像說我們的運動部我們也是經過長年的倡議啊然後資源的盤點啊規劃組織調整才有辦法在今年要掛牌成立所以我想這個戰略特別委員會本席認為說如果沒有妥善的討論的情況之下就設立不但是給行政機關困擾而且這個委員會要怎麼定位原額單位預算等等所以我覺得這個不應該寫入也請葛昭偉審慎考慮謝謝"},{"start":10586.414,"end":10591.074,"text":"好謝謝林警召委剛好您提到所以我想因為跟本席有關我還是提一下"},{"start":10592.211,"end":10621.064,"text":"6月2号刚刚有不少委员提到各国的状况我们临近的南韩已经通过了人工智慧的相关的规范日本也通过人工智慧相关技术研究开发以及应用推动法显然就是在开发以及应用是比较偏科技研究以及人才同时领域委员赵伟宁刚刚提到的日本在内阁直接设立人工智慧战略本部由首相来担任本部长"},{"start":10621.664,"end":10634.937,"text":"大臣為成員所以我想這個機制上面確實有討論的空間那我就說明到此我想按照剛才的我們的決定也許我們就這個第7條我們就予以保留那我們接下來進到第8條那第8條呢是只有兩個人的提案是接近的那有沒有意義"},{"start":10650.663,"end":10654.232,"text":"好 那有意义我们就保留好 那我们接下来进入第9条"},{"start":10662.802,"end":10690.569,"text":"那個昭偉我在教文委員是第五年沒有看過有審一個法案每一條都保留然後還繼續下去的就是說昭偉我知道你對AI基本法有你的熱情跟意志很高可是我們剛剛已經有談到了就是說目前是速發部會主責那速發部我們也沒有每一條問他們的意見然後速發部剛剛已經講他們不是沒有版本而是現在變化太大"},{"start":10691.369,"end":10712.766,"text":"所以他們希望觀光一段時間那我們大家如果尊重是速發部會主責這個部分那未來這個也應該是交通委員會的人主監督嘛那現在我們在場都是就是說我的意思就是說我們好像就是卡在這裡然後每一條都保留那周偉你確定我們要繼續審下去嗎還是我們擇期再審"},{"start":10715.307,"end":10736.596,"text":"這個部分那如果能夠速發部有版本的話也不會現在每一條又因為條次不一樣內容差異很大我們委員會完全沒有一個整合的能力那最後送去難道我們是要讓傅坤祺 黨鞭或是黃國昌他們去把條文伸出來嗎所以我真的覺得據說是不是擇期再審請召委能夠再考慮一次"},{"start":10737.489,"end":10752.845,"text":"好再強調一次謝謝因為在一開始就有不同政黨的委員提到可能會有出現有人落後沒有被保護到的問題那我們看到鄰近的國家也都陸續在希望立法去做"},{"start":10753.746,"end":10768.477,"text":"研發做應用做保護那我們現在一直沒有這樣的一個上位的基本法我們今天練習的所有的相關的機關跟部會可能就沒有一個適應的標準也沒有辦法開始進行法規調適啊所以我想如果我們這個執政黨"},{"start":10771.124,"end":10791.421,"text":"沒有提出一個適合的法案也不願意你去共事現在只是可能因為條文調製的順序不同張明有問題那我想這個如果說變化太快現在所有的事物都變化很快所以我想我們這個就按照我們剛才的這個決議我們就保留"},{"start":10793.272,"end":10803.256,"text":"因為剛才林怡瑾 趙薇是跟我提說如果有的話也許我們就一位發表意見沒有吧 讓大家發言至少要一位啊那我們剛剛的決議是就是有意義的話我們就保留啊沒有沒有"},{"start":10814.406,"end":10840.171,"text":"我們針對這一條好不好好因為其實我已經講了很多次我還是希望部會可以來回應一下就是雖然說大家都有講到我知道我知道讓我講話謝謝就是說大家一直在講說有參考到弱勢啊有照顧到兒少等等但是我一直沒有聽到我們的部會到底對於兒少的影響性評估有沒有一個非常明確的回應不然其實坦白說後面很難討論下去啊"},{"start":10841.491,"end":10863.967,"text":"因為我們根本不確定所以現在兒少團體也都只是在猜或是他們從國外的一些研究他們發現我覺得這邊是不是可以請部會來針對這點來回應下去這樣子我們才能夠比較更清楚的去討論那第二點是說我還是要再回應一下因為大家其實一直不停的在講國外都有在跟上這個法規韓國等等的可是我們要先我要回應一下這題就是說歐盟雖然在"},{"start":10866.129,"end":10893.046,"text":"之前已经定了一个AI的风险的法规可是他们也已经有在6月6号宣布他们不排除延后部分法规的生效我觉得这部分也是要让大家厘清其实欧盟或是波兰都有在因应这个时代这个科技的日新月异快速编迁来去做一些调整所以我认为我们也是必须要去对上这个世界的节奏而不是说别人都有我们就马上要冲"},{"start":10894.006,"end":10910.909,"text":"我覺得我們還是要來像剛剛回應到速發部有講的我們應該還是要靜觀其變但是還是請回應一下我剛剛前面的第一個問題謝謝張大靈委員因為國歌會之前已經出過草案了所以我想我們就因為現在在速發部這裡所以速發部是不是檢要這個回應就是兒少這邊"},{"start":10912.371,"end":10937.372,"text":"這個就是我剛剛講在我們在這個法案在後來在制定的時候為什麼說要先在討論跟觀察因為這個基本法會影響到剛剛講兒少法是一個絕對是一個被影響也影響到個資法也影響到著作權法所以這個法其實不是單獨的一個法它是牽動很多相關法律才會需要跟各部會協調那我想說這個就是剛剛講兒少我們會特別注意但是確實是我們在目前考量的一個"},{"start":10938.032,"end":10948.31,"text":"想問的是說我們到底有沒有做一些相關的影響性評估像之前西塔法案他們可能就會做一些性別影響評估或少影響評估這個部分我們到底做了嗎我們會去做但是還沒做還沒做 對好 了解"},{"start":10949.332,"end":10974.118,"text":"好 那我想我們第8條就保留那我們接下來進入第9條那第9條主要是針對這個教育的部分那有非常多的委員也都非常關注教育那我們剛才也提到2017年的時候12月我們賴清德擔任行政院院長的時候就非常關注人工智慧與AI教育但是我們現在已經2025年了8年已經通過了"},{"start":10977.259,"end":10998.617,"text":"那我想接下来可能只会变化的更快那这条关于教育那这个林警召委有提到伦理教育提升素养生化那那个杨秋英委员有提到产学合作许志杰委员呢有提到也是跟林警召委是相似的"},{"start":10999.754,"end":11018.18,"text":"那這個吳宗憲委員呢是有很明白的列出有產學合作啊 基礎設施等等好 那關於第九條各位有沒有 委員有沒有意見好 那如果有意見我們還是就保留那我們接下來進入第十條因為這一條的差異真的不大我覺得不用"},{"start":11026.846,"end":11043.937,"text":"主席 因為剛才我剛才發覺到就是其實民進黨的許志傑委員跟李一綺委員的這個部分基本上是一樣的而且他跟盧薰委員的這個內容其實很相近我覺得可能是第一個我們可以在這個條文當中就第"},{"start":11048.939,"end":11069.816,"text":"第八條來做一個第九條來做一個就整合真的是可以達到的真的看文字尤其在教育跟素養倫理通通都有包含到了我覺得事實上可以就這文字上面就第一個達成一個共識的部分請問速發部部長國會主委能不能你共識的條文有委員提出是不是可以你是不是可以你請部長回應好不好可不可以你"},{"start":11077.438,"end":11080.782,"text":"其實我看了那麼久啦羅廷輝委員 萬美玲委員跟徐志傑委員 李一錦委員這四個人的版本真的蠻類似的尤其在很多個條文包括說前面的第三條 第四條然後現在的第九條所以如果說第九條我們可以先"},{"start":11097.401,"end":11112.004,"text":"別的委員如果說沒有到的話那可能他的他有其他的想法或意見那我們就是以在場委員為主嘛所以我想之前我們在教育文化委員會的時候在審相關的法案也是這樣子的一個概念嘛那所以說如果說是第九條的話"},{"start":11113.687,"end":11142.495,"text":"羅廷偉、萬美玲、許智傑、林怡瑾這四個版本是不是文字幾乎都一樣那我是覺得說這個立法的內容方向我覺得我也是支持的那我們是不是就以這四位委員的版本為做一個共識那看一下那個主管機關有沒有意見如果主管機關沒有意見的話是不是就以這四位委的版本為我們第九條的一個就法請問主管機關這邊或者是訴發部或者是國歌會訴發部可不可以先回應"},{"start":11146.206,"end":11155.107,"text":"好 所以是張阿玲委員 郭益勤委員 張阿玲委員 范雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":11159.907,"end":11186.157,"text":"因為這第九條其實跟這個AI教育素養有關那我想今天這個教育部其實也沒來啊教育部也沒來啊那我想有教育部師長在這邊那等一下可以回應一下因為我們知道其實教育部在這個2023年我們的課綱當中其實就已經研議要將這個AI素養納入這個科技領域當中那但是我覺得如果是在基本法當中去系列執行的方式"},{"start":11187.077,"end":11205.164,"text":"我是個人覺得有點不妥啦因為要保持更多的一個彈性啦那我想的這個剛剛有特別提到像區議員委員許志傑的委員的版本也有特別提到所謂的涵蓋倫理教育那這一點其實是一個關鍵啦那我想這個AI的使用應該不是只有在技能上的一個問題"},{"start":11205.984,"end":11219.86,"text":"那還是價值判斷的一個問題喔那只是說在整個細項當中要不要在基本法當中去寫到這麼的細那這個部分我等一下也請這個教育部他們這邊也來回應一下啦好"},{"start":11226.351,"end":11233.634,"text":"那因為在沒有兒少影響性評估的狀況之下我是認為要針對這些跟未成年的討論是有點不恰當不過我想這邊還是提供一下團體的意見就是說團體認為針對這一點我們應該還是要針對未成年制定相關的學習指引並且推動相關的產品認證來確保我們為未成年兒少的身心安全及資訊判讀能力不受損害"},{"start":11255.644,"end":11262.891,"text":"那這是團體的意見我還是幫忙表達不過我還是想要再重申啦我們應該還是要等到兒少影響性評估我們再來審我們會更能夠去確保到到底實質的影響是什麼謝謝好 范議委員謝謝我想問教育部就是AI的教育的範疇中有沒有可能納入性別平等的意識為什麼"},{"start":11277.825,"end":11295.173,"text":"因為其實你可以看到這個數位的風險那已經有很多的國家的研究包含我們剛剛一直提到的歐盟那他們有通過人工智慧與人權民主和法理的框架公約的時候就特別提到婦女跟女孩的處境有非常高的風險"},{"start":11296.314,"end":11320.94,"text":"那所以在這個過程中就是AI的教育我相信教育部正在做就是也不會反對那只是針對就是說在AI的相關的教育裡面是不是應該能夠特別加強性別平等意識然後避免偏見歧視跟性暴力相關的部分那些也許就是說可以在那個說明文字裡面就因為其實我們沒有那個"},{"start":11322.18,"end":11338.229,"text":"我們今天連說明文字都沒有辦法處理因為過去是行政院的版本會有那個說明文字我還可以要求放在說明文字當中所以待會是不是可以請教育部回應一下就是AI教育的這個範圍中能不能放入性別平等意識"},{"start":11339.71,"end":11367.825,"text":"那如果能的話那文字修正這部分教育部是不是可以協助提出那當然我還是要提到就是說這些相關的研究我們都沒有看到那也沒辦法要速發部跟教育部事前提供那讓我們對於就是要加入哪些就是跟監管有關的東西非常的困擾那也要回應剛剛洪孟凱委員講他說英國有指引可是英國現在停下來的就是跟監管有關的法嗎"},{"start":11368.425,"end":11386.452,"text":"那今天我們要發展的話大家都同意對不對就是發展情況下哪些要監管的部分才需要有這個基本法來處理那對於監管的東西那英國停下來這個部分我還是希望在國際的資訊這個部分那大家能夠就是更清楚的理解好 謝謝"},{"start":11388.153,"end":11408.161,"text":"謝謝范議員我想這一條羅廷惠委員萬美玲委員李英錦委員都幾乎是相似的那這個也無牽涉到所謂監管因為這是教育平權那所以是不是速發部國科會這裡可不可以擬一個我們現在就是擬一個共識的條文出來然後可不可以然後請資格"},{"start":11416.866,"end":11432.371,"text":"是請智克師說明一下教育部現在有來智克師的師長然後我們有高等教育師高教師技職師國民學年教育署都有到那我們請師長是不是要回應一下好"},{"start":11439.577,"end":11465.707,"text":"首先是針對條文的部分委員提出來的這一些其實我們都在我們教育部沒有特別的意見而且我們會去做然後像剛才范雲委員提到的這個AI怎麼樣避免AI有偏見或是性別意識的部分那在後續的一個AI素養教育我們會特別去注意然後張雅琳委員提到的有關於未成年的指引其實我們"},{"start":11466.587,"end":11486.462,"text":"目前已經有的是就是學生的一個指引但我們現在還在做那會把這一個部分特別像我們有關於產品的一個認證只要是教育部就是有關於未來產品有AI的部分其實我們現在在審查也都有納入那我們會持續來努力我做以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":11489.158,"end":11518.017,"text":"好謝謝師長那這個第9條呢我們在本席的版本在寫的時候是參考科學技術基本法第22條那是幾乎是一樣的那是民定政府應該對國民對人工智慧知識的技能去厚植相關的數位素養那我想這一條既然有共識我想是不是可以請速發不跟沒有沒有說我說有是有共識的啊羅廷惠委員外美林委員林益勤委員是有共識的"},{"start":11522.319,"end":11542.189,"text":"吳佩儀委員要發言主席剛剛前面這麼多委員的發言明顯就是沒有共識我不知道為什麼你可以下有共識這個結論我希望主持還是意識要公正一點那我具體的提問因為趙偉寧的葛如居委員的版本裡面第九條提到是厚植國民之素未素養那其他的委員提的是"},{"start":11543.109,"end":11556.037,"text":"提升國民人工智慧之素養因為這個是法律的文字其實差一字都差很多數位素養跟人工智慧素養是一樣的嗎數位素養應該是包含但不等於人工數位之素養所以你這條定下去了這個到底是要後職數位素養還是人工智慧之素養這要討論嗎這版本哪有一樣版本通通都不一樣"},{"start":11569.465,"end":11576.51,"text":"那你剛剛也沒討論那你前面每一條有意見你就說保留然後現在這一條你就說請部會回應那是接下來每一條是不是每個部會都要回應還是怎麼樣我這個還是回到程旭問題我希望這個原則要一樣否則我不知道每一條討論的原則都不一樣好那所以我們現在就確定所以你到底是你的數位素養是要修掉嗎還是怎麼樣沒有共識我覺得數位素養我的主張是保留我可以尊重萬美林委員羅廷惠委員跟林盈琴委員的意見"},{"start":11598.405,"end":11605.05,"text":"那外美林委員是人工智慧之素養那我們有意見啊剛剛是不是說有意見要保留因為我們剛剛還有講到針對"},{"start":11609.107,"end":11637.877,"text":"好 那既然這樣我們就再次立下共識待會有意見我們就保留那希望大家就不要再我們再回來繞圈圈了保留跟發言是兩件事欸保留但是我們還是可以針對於團體的一些建議我覺得我們還是要反映團體的聲音所以今天這些聲音還是能夠被提出來然後最後達成保留的共識我覺得這應該是今天大家認同的部分才對"},{"start":11638.997,"end":11657.951,"text":"詹惟我覺得你不能怕我們發言我相信孟愷委員有經驗我們以前在教委我們可能為了一個條文為了一句話為了一個字我們可以講一個小時你不能怕我們發言因為大家非常的關心大家對這些都有想法也都有意見想要表達你不能怕大家發言啊還限制說只能一個人發言還講一分鐘那我們舉手你都不完全不理我們為什麼不讓我們講為什麼不讓我們發言"},{"start":11664.415,"end":11692.682,"text":"首先第一沒有怕發言第二剛剛並沒有委員真的就只講一分鐘所以我想我們還是要理性的來進行我們今天的會議好不好那我們就針對法條那如果有意義我們就保留那之所以我們剛剛在發言上面因為之後保留我們在協商的過程裡我們也都還是可以持續的討論跟發表意見好那我們這一條呢我們就"},{"start":11694.451,"end":11710.867,"text":"保留好那我們現在進入第十條那第十條呢是所謂的鼓勵啦那有沒有意義好那郭玉琴委員謝謝"},{"start":11712.606,"end":11735.742,"text":"我看到這第十條其實真的是版本非常的混亂那包含葛國軍委員您的版本是放在第十條就是在講這個跨域的一個合作國際的參與然後產官學的一個合作然後公司協力等等但是我們看到吳宗憲委員的版本是放在第五條然後另外林倩琪委員她是放在第六條"},{"start":11736.622,"end":11753.87,"text":"那另外呢像民眾黨的版本他是放在32條楊瓊英委員是放在32條萬美林委員公司協力他放在第8條所以到底這麼多不同的版本我們現在是要放在哪裡要再來討論到底是以誰的版本為主那現在調遮我光看"},{"start":11755.751,"end":11771.977,"text":"就有第五條 第六條 三十二條 第八條然後還有第十條然後還有人是放在第我不知道還有第幾條是我沒看到的還有第六條然後跟林千玺委員一樣是第六條所以到底我們是要以誰的版本我們繼續這樣子討論下去我剛剛已經講過再次回憶一下就是這個謝榮介委員剛剛講的不是在比誰跑得快"},{"start":11779.6,"end":11804.193,"text":"宋茜不是在比誰跑得快這個不是競技場這個立法是要非常細緻是不是要精緻的而且在講到這個AI基本法我們牽扯到的所有的部會是這麼的多話題這麼的多牽扯的資訊跟所有的這個相關聯繫又是這麼的不一樣所以今天我們光看條次都有這麼多不同的版本到底要以誰的來做討論好以上"},{"start":11808.41,"end":11830.952,"text":"好 那范議員剛剛有舉手這一條是發展嘛 可是發展的寫法到底是像剛剛郭益勤委員講的我們應該是一個如均委員的版本一一列舉呢還是像林怡瑾跟許智傑或是邱瑩等的版本強調公司協力 政府應怎麼樣是比較簡單的"},{"start":11832.634,"end":11845.257,"text":"那這個部分我待會是想請庶發部是不是能夠回應一下政府現在在做的有哪些因為你在做的哪些我們才知道說哪些我們應該要列在這裡然後大家知道有沒有遺漏那我們應該要走這個國務軍委員這個方向列舉12345671資料中心能源設備等等還是說"},{"start":11856.059,"end":11877.885,"text":"移軍委員的 智捷委員的就是強調公司協力速發部是不是能夠回應就是說第一個你們現在在做的這些項目中比如移國移軍委員在12345678為例就是說是不是都有在發展那需不需要強調公司協力還是已經在公司協力了需要法定說要公司協力好 OK"},{"start":11878.325,"end":11896.755,"text":"好謝謝那我們請出發部部長針對剛剛範圍委員所提到的那本席的版本呢是有列那你您可以依據依序一條一項的來說明你們有做的那以及其他的委員的是否可以請部長發表"},{"start":11898.136,"end":11912.333,"text":"基本上塑化部在推動AI上已經工作了一段時間那我們基本上在從五個面向去推動AI那當然剛剛講就委員所講的這些工作我們都有涵蓋在我們的工作裡面"},{"start":11912.833,"end":11936.17,"text":"那第一就是協助建立算力池嘛 就讓AI能夠發展然後資料的整理 讓資料能夠用來訓練人才培育 然後在行銷幫助台灣的AI的廠商能夠把solution 媒合在國內的產業的需要跟到國外那最後就是資金 我們就投資一些新創 讓很多AI新創可以發展"},{"start":11936.63,"end":11959.909,"text":"那這個的確是公私協力啦就是說公私協力是非常重要所以公私協力這個字眼我覺得是如果要放在基本法的話這個應該要做至於說工作的內容我覺得因為剛剛講AI的變化很快我們要做的工作不只這八項所以我覺得就是說這邊應該不用去調列而是一個基本原則的宣示是比較重要好"},{"start":11963.583,"end":11988.986,"text":"這條只是列法不一樣吼那差很多好差很多好那我們第10條就保留好那我們接下來進入第11條那第11條呢是可能跟預算有關啦那因為公司協力也好或者是政府來協助也好都有預算方面的需求好那"},{"start":11990.451,"end":11993.773,"text":"有意見 有異議嗎好 那領域委員謝謝主席"},{"start":12003.912,"end":12026.443,"text":"這一條 11條 就是葛昭緯的11條是有關於預算的部分預算法其實強調各機關預算編列的獨立性而且必須要 我們要諸行所謂的預算的程序由各級政府自行來編列預算然後交由所謂的民意代表審議那葛昭緯的版本中有要求各級主管機關皆應編列預算"},{"start":12029.224,"end":12051.933,"text":"我覺得如果解釋為強制性的要求而不是建議性的或者是方向性的指導那可能就有點是變相干預地方政府的編列預算自主權況且編列預算後還要審議那審議也可能不會過所以立這一條我感覺是好像要求國會或議會一定要通過AI相關的預算一樣我覺得變相有點侵犯民意機關的預算審議權"},{"start":12057.435,"end":12073.976,"text":"另外那個預算法也有要求預算編列要有明確的用途跟細項葛昭偉的草案只有指出確保經費符合人工智慧政策之所需可是你沒有明確表示經費的具體用途目標效益評估等等"},{"start":12074.677,"end":12099.776,"text":"那在這個實際預算審查的時候就會面臨很大的挑戰可能會被質疑為空白授權喔那或者是說你目的不明確的預算那如果地方政府隨便一筆AI預算那所有名目上只要符合AI基本法可是內容空泛不明那這叫民意機關怎麼審議所以各級主管機關皆因編列預算這個其實是違憲疑慮的喔所以我覺得這個不應該這樣定定以上"},{"start":12104.412,"end":12121.493,"text":"好 張雅琳委員 郭益勤委員好 那一樣就是說因為其實我們有行政立法權是分立的這是台灣的一個基本的運作的政府運作的架構那我國的憲法第63條就規定立法院有審議預算的權利那財政紀律法第7條也限制各級政府"},{"start":12121.994,"end":12139.694,"text":"及立法机关法案真谛固定的经费额度或比率的保障那应该是要依循组织总处的往历不应该在我们的法律案中定定预算经费所以我认为这一个地方是有违宪的疑虑所以我认为这一条应该要来拿掉才对"},{"start":12144.375,"end":12168.351,"text":"這個條文是把那個編列預算印要寫進法律我覺得應該不太符合這個基本法的一個定位啦我覺得應該是基本法應該是把設計的一個治理的一個架構跟政策的一個方向那如果是把這個預算編列印是要寫進去其實光是主計總書他們一貫的立場是依憲法來規定預算編列應該是由行政部門來做提案立法院來做審議"},{"start":12169.392,"end":12184.118,"text":"不應該是在基本法上面就直接要規定說你要有一個編列義務預算這樣子的一個條文放在這個基本法裡面啦我是覺得有點不妥啦以上好 再來劉淑冰委員"},{"start":12185.134,"end":12191.616,"text":"好 民眾黨這一部分針對說發展AI絕對是要有預算但是預算當然也是要符合國家財政的部分所以我們是在我們的第五條對應到目前在討論知識革命版的第十一條當中是說政府應該在國家財政能力範圍內寬列預算"},{"start":12206.32,"end":12221.475,"text":"那採取必要措施確保這個經費能符合人工智慧發展所需那當然我們也針對到第七條的我們自己版本的第七條裡面有針對包括有些國發基金的這個運用也可以運用到是在促進到所謂的"},{"start":12222.936,"end":12237.353,"text":"AI的發展包括目前應該是在國科會當中也有些科研經費當中目前是最大的部分當然也是針對到AI的部分發展所以這部分我想應該是都有預算只是說我們透過法定預算的方式把它呈現到我們的條文當中謝謝好謝謝劉淑冰委員那這一條"},{"start":12244.81,"end":12262.879,"text":"第11條我想因為剛才有提到我的本席的版本那這個呢是因為主要還是希望能夠人工智慧有預算的確保那到底是因還是得也是可以討論的那這個但總體來講如果還是有意義的話我們這條就保留是"},{"start":12265.356,"end":12290.514,"text":"范委員我們現在到第十條我們每條都保留然後因跟得也沒辦法做深入的討論我真的覺得這個傷害我們教育委員就是說過去長期以來的良好的傳統那也對周圍的形象不好耶因為據說這樣的事情是因跟得這是很大的差異我們若不討論那到時候是少數人去協商還是傅坤祺跟黃國昌加歐小林來幫大家決定呢"},{"start":12291.174,"end":12307.533,"text":"所以真的覺得這樣子會更讓人擔憂啦是不是擇期再審謝謝我補充一下啦謝謝范議員因為范議員有提到本席那我想我還是說明一下一個世界快速變遷的法令的框架大家是必須要"},{"start":12312.125,"end":12320.376,"text":"很理性的來看待我們剛剛已經提過了2017年賴清德擔任行政院院長就已經不斷的在說"},{"start":12322.216,"end":12349.949,"text":"教育跟AI那到今年三月有十幾位的民進黨的立法委員集結起來說要作為優先法案二月份賴清德總統作為民進黨的黨主席他是說是優先法案那我想不同的政黨也都非常關注公聽會的時候不同的人也都提出希望能夠盡快有一個框架剛剛也有委員提到相關弱勢的保護等等"},{"start":12350.888,"end":12368.677,"text":"所以我想這一條我們就保留那我們就進入下一條好 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12372.5,"end":12401.147,"text":"他有他的困難 你已經講了那個兒少的東西 你跟未婦婦然後英國的東西也是那個院子的變化你們的想法 因為你們也是希望這個修憲法案那如果說有 我們都出去你都出去這樣反而不好我們委員會到時候沒有辦法好好的審查沒有啊 到時候協商的時候很多時候人都不是他協商的時候不會是所有委員都有空的時間因為我每次都會到我們先溝通一下"},{"start":14061.018,"end":14087.071,"text":"好非常感謝跨黨派還有諸位好非常感謝跨黨派以及諸位委員的這個對於AI基本法人工智慧基本法的關注那我想剛剛也有非常充分的發言跟討論那我想我們就共同請數位發展部於7月15號以前提出佈板那本席呢會在7月21號來排審那這樣大家有沒有意見"},{"start":14090.683,"end":14100.992,"text":"這一週來排審7月21號那一週來排審好那一週那一週好不好好那如果沒有意見的話我們就做如上決議好"},{"start":14112.52,"end":14141.955,"text":"好那關於今天會做如下決議那對於委員質詢要求或者剛剛對談需要資料或未及答覆的部分相關機關競訴與書面答覆那我們人工智慧基本法的草案呢未及審查部分呢我們另定期繼續審查那我們也希望速發部希望這個本於世界的趨勢以及只會越來越快請務必於7月15日以前提出速發部的布版"},{"start":14144.465,"end":14157.457,"text":"好 那外美林委員有提供書面資料我們列入會議記錄那本次會議是入授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}