{"error":false,"id":["167483"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167483,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167483","日期":"2026-03-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-20-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-16T09:54:02+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-16T10:05:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e545302d1642c5f64469522235c8281c9845512775efda379ba3647d0b3df3c8e4add9a9fc88eabd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:54:02 - 10:05:55","會議時間":"2026-03-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":3.84471875,"end":5.32971875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":6.08909375,"end":7.1353437500000005,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.57784375,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":11.185343750000001,"end":11.556593750000001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":11.87721875,"end":17.95221875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":18.35721875,"end":23.301593750000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.094718750000002,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.26721875,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":27.874718750000003,"end":27.97596875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.97596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":28.43159375,"end":28.515968750000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.515968750000003,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":29.039093750000003,"end":29.76471875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.405968750000003,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":30.43971875,"end":36.19409375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.19409375,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.57784375,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":38.48909375,"end":38.50596875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.92784375,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.64471875,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.344718750000006,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.21784375,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.799718750000004,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":50.82471875,"end":50.892218750000005,"speaker_score":0.704},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.00471875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.62034375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.86034375,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":65.89409375000001,"end":66.77159375000001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":67.39596875000001,"end":68.86409375000001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":69.18471875,"end":113.11034375000001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":113.61659375,"end":184.06971875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.81221875,"end":184.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":184.89659375000002,"end":217.76909375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":218.19096875000002,"end":247.82346875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":248.39721875,"end":273.62534375,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":271.70159375000003,"end":308.97846875000005,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":273.67596875000004,"end":273.81096875000003,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.65409375,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":308.97846875000005,"end":326.10659375,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":324.60471875,"end":325.11096875000004,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":326.10659375,"end":329.00909375000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":326.17409375,"end":328.95846875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":329.00909375000003,"end":329.02596875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":329.02596875,"end":561.1922187499999,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":330.57846875,"end":330.96659375,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":331.45596875,"end":331.99596875000003,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":333.09284375000004,"end":333.97034375000004,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":333.97034375000004,"end":334.99971875,"speaker_score":0.704},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":336.80534375,"end":337.10909375,"speaker_sc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我們有請主計長請陳主計長委員好好 是這個監督國庫帳房本席針對兩個第一個經濟成長並為全民平均收惠第二個特別預算常態化的舉債成長跟經濟財政的紀律這個怎麼用 來來來"},{"start":27.864,"end":34.489,"text":"這個我還不知道怎麼怎麼按這個東西可以教導一下嗎這個我不會按耶這我按都不能這怎麼按這個嗎我按怎麼不行是按中間這個嗎"},{"start":60.026,"end":62.7,"text":"不好意思啊主席不好意思好"},{"start":65.985,"end":89.297,"text":"沒有電了好沒有電好第一個呢針對平均薪資跟薪資中位數第二個特別預算長待發的舉債成長跟財政機率下頁好足跡總數身為國家的帳房每一筆的預算都編列代表的政府的施政重點也呈現台灣2300萬人民的生活跟未來在7.7%的經濟成長為何年輕人無感針對標普全球今年"},{"start":94.54,"end":110.573,"text":"二月預測今年全球的經濟成長率是2.9%跟去年是持平的但是主計總數你預測我國今年的成長率可以到7.71%而今年的消費物價指數呢也會漲1.68%"},{"start":113.675,"end":117.336,"text":"那足跡總數您說這個115年的經濟成長率高達7.7%這在後疫情時代跟國際貿易動態下是非常驚人的但是我們來看這一組數據這三個數據平均薪資48,000經常性薪資中位數是38,319元未滿30歲的經常性中位數是31,740元"},{"start":140.385,"end":157.223,"text":"好 這樣的公佈呢 這個平均薪資啊 接近四萬八 事實上平均數極易受到高薪資族群跟極端值的拉抬 真正代表普羅大眾心情的經常性的薪資是落在三萬八千三百一十九元"},{"start":157.883,"end":183.493,"text":"這代表全台灣有超過一半的受僱勞工每年領不到10萬元更讓本期擔憂的是未滿30歲的年輕人薪資的中位數只有31815年所以當政府高喊經濟成長預測達到7.7%的時候這過半數的基層勞工完全感受不到成長的果實就是說政府你在騙我"},{"start":185.113,"end":202.451,"text":"就是這個數字 就是這樣的心態所以你每公佈一次 這個民運就提高一次既然你115年了 如此的樂觀那當然我也希望 本席也希望是如此的數字的呈現但是你怎麼解釋這種高經濟成長跟低實質薪資征服的斷層呢"},{"start":207.296,"end":217.449,"text":"第二個這種平均薪資的說法是不能為主流民意所接受就好像本席本人我跟籃球選手姚明平均身高也有1900啊你覺得這個數字對我林黛華有什麼對本席還有什麼意義沒有意義啊"},{"start":223.576,"end":242.724,"text":"就好像你說四萬八跟我一般老百姓的薪資平均三萬八跟三十歲以下三萬的我一定是罵翻你政府了所以這個數據其實就我們的這樣的一個平均薪資跟薪資中位數拿台積電的高薪去平均月薪三萬的基層勞工對他們有意義嗎所以這個您怎麼看啊 竹記長"},{"start":248.704,"end":269.374,"text":"因為其實他薪資是都有行業別啦那我們是整個一個薪資的中位數是3萬8那3萬8是指50%以上就會有具有3萬8這樣的一個資格但是各行業別還是有不同啦譬如說服務業他的薪資大概都是在3萬多出頭到4萬這樣一個階級主席長以後公布好不好"},{"start":274.997,"end":297.138,"text":"不要每次都引起民怨就覺得我們在騙人民所以你必須公布實質薪資的成長率這個東西你一定要同步的公布這樣人民會覺得我們也看著這個數字今年的這個平均薪的平均的中位數是這個三萬八也許明年三萬九或者明年我又多了這個五百塊"},{"start":298.939,"end":327.539,"text":"這個才表示我們的施政有力道看的是成長進步而不是用那個表面的數字完全是跟現實脫鉤的嘛這樣可以嗎是我要跟委員報告事實上我們在公布的時候我們各行業別的一個中位數包括他的平均薪資包括他的中位數各行業別各年齡別我們都有公布並不是說沒有公布那你的新聞稿要特別注意是是是新聞稿要特別注意"},{"start":328.92,"end":334.824,"text":"這個並不是說沒有公佈只是說因為你的新聞稿的重點接下來特別預算常態化的舉債成長跟財政機率這個表啊這個是從2017年也就是我爬梳大概這近十年來現在2026年"},{"start":345.792,"end":368.146,"text":"這計時年來從2027到2025的基礎前瞻一直到我們2019到2026的新式戰機的採購到這個防疫紓困振興海空戰力提升疫後強化經濟社會韌性的特別預算一直到今年還沒有去年還沒通過的強化韌性的國防大概5200億一直到國防特別預算1.25兆"},{"start":374.69,"end":392.238,"text":"這個數字顯示特別預算的累計速度的斜率是明顯的陡峭化這正是常態化的最強鐵證所以從2005年的特別預算的累計我用累計有0.3兆中央的債務是3.6兆"},{"start":395.179,"end":421.907,"text":"2015年的特別預算的累積是1.1兆中央債務是5.3兆2024年的特別預算的累積是2.6兆中央債務6.5兆2025年我直接就把它加上去了你的2.6兆其實在2.5多啦再加上這個我們的這個還沒通過的那兩個國防特別預算可以特別預算累積到4.3兆中央債務大"},{"start":423.848,"end":443.662,"text":"達6.47兆也就是過去20年我從2025年開始算了特別預算的增幅跟2025年比較4.3跟0.3兆我增加了14倍遠遠超過政府債務的成長速度這代表政府已經不能通過總預算的節流來做事情"},{"start":444.142,"end":460.189,"text":"而是習慣性的開外掛 繞過預算法的第83條特別預算是否已成為政府擴張支出的主要工具而非例外工具好 我在這邊也跟審計部 那也有請審計長"},{"start":461.63,"end":468.894,"text":"審計長在這邊審計部點名了五項大概所有的預算會有這五項的失能這是你們的報告第一個執行率虛胖計畫的延宕嚴重第三個重複補助亂象第四個規避正規的預算第五個是年底趕季度這是審計部你整個針對預算的報告"},{"start":490.947,"end":493.829,"text":"好 那就以這樣的報告來對應我的這個特別預算特別預算能是例外嗎過去十年的特別預算超過了將近2.5兆我就沒再加上這個2025年沒通過的"},{"start":506.736,"end":522.867,"text":"幾乎每兩年就編一個新的這符合預算法中的不定期或重大正式嗎如果每年都有重大正式那為什麼不乾脆編進總預算接受每年一度的細目審查呢"},{"start":523.527,"end":538.772,"text":"好 那你們是不是真的也是在規避立法院的監督呢這是本席的第二項質疑特別預算是才一次通過分年執行這是否大幅削弱我立法院年度預算中的逐年刪減"},{"start":540.412,"end":560.891,"text":"調整計畫的監督權利呢這是不是叫做空白授權第三個本席質疑的是真實的舉債比例為何這2.5兆的特別預算累計的特別預算當中是有多少是透過舉債之意債務呢又佔了GDP的比例下降"},{"start":562.172,"end":582.541,"text":"這是你們的說法 官方的說法 債務暫時GDP比例下降但是事實上是什麼 是分母GDP長大了但是分子債務的絕對值卻是不斷的堆疊所以一旦經濟下行的時候 行政院主計總部又如何確保財政機率先由沈記長您先回應"},{"start":584.728,"end":592.35,"text":"特別預算的部分我們曾經109年或者112年都有提醒行政院會常態化這一個部分我們是希望能夠去注意到財政永續的問題我們有統計過差不多90年到114年我們辦了34個結算差不多1年1.5個大部分都擠債差不多有擠債都4兆"},{"start":613.894,"end":615.656,"text":"既然沈記長有這樣的一個建言了就一個財政紀律希望也能夠常態的去編列那你怎麼看呢"},{"start":631.09,"end":655.416,"text":"事實上特別預算它並不是很例外它是有特別有一個必須經過特別條例經立法院通過以後我們才便利預算所以它是有特殊的那第二個它其實舉債它都受到我們整個舉債的限制並沒有說放任它不受舉債的限制所以這個部分呢在整個債務的一個控管上我們一直說控管的很好"},{"start":655.816,"end":677.855,"text":"那因為質詢世界大我最後提醒數字不應該只是用來美化政績而是發現問題解決問題預算不能只有特別而沒有紀律當例外變成常態這就是對法治跟子孫財政的背叛所以主計長您剛才的回應跟審計部審計長是有衝突的所以你們自己要好好的針對財政紀律再做一個協調"},{"start":680.037,"end":707.526,"text":"不要再用GDP的增長來掩蓋債務絕對值的飆升因為這個是後代子孫每個世世代代的債務比是在增加的特別預算本來就是一例外的制度但近十年來規模已經超過累計將近2.5兆元難免關心的是政府是否把特別預算當成常態所以請主計總署能夠一個月內提供維持財政紀律的方案給本委員會可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":713.49,"end":713.692,"text":"谢谢大家"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.211000+08:00","text":"我們有請主計長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.251000+08:00","text":"請陳主計長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.351000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:54:06.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:54:08.913000+08:00","text":"本席針對兩個議題，第一，經濟成長並未全民平均受惠；第二，特別預算常態化的舉債成長跟財政紀律。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:11.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:17.550000+08:00","text":"第一個，針對平均薪資跟薪資中位數；第二個，特別預算常態化的舉債成長跟財政紀律。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:19.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:29.396000+08:00","text":"主計總處身為國家的帳房，每一筆的預算編列都代表著政府的施政重點，也呈現臺灣兩千三百萬人民的生活跟未來。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:29.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:30.597000+08:00","text":"而7.71%的經濟成長，為何年輕人無感？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:30.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:52.573000+08:00","text":"標普今年2月預測115年全球經濟成長率是2.9%，跟去年是持平的，但是主計總處預測我國今年的成長率可以到7.71%，而今年的消費物價指數也會漲1.68%。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:55.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:59.316000+08:00","text":"主計總處說115年經濟成長率高達7.71%，這在後疫情時代跟國際貿易動盪下是非常驚人的，但是我們來看這一組數據，這三個數據，平均薪資4萬8,000元、經常性薪資中位數是3萬8,319元，以及未滿30歲的經常性中位數是3萬1,740元。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:56:22.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:12.199000+08:00","text":"這樣的公布內容，平均薪資接近4萬8,000，事實上，平均數極易受到高薪資族群跟極端值拉抬，真正代表普羅大眾「薪情」的經常性薪資是落在3萬8,319元，這代表全臺灣有超過一半的受僱勞工，每年領不到4萬元，更讓本席擔憂的是未滿30歲的年輕人，薪資的中位數只有3萬1,815元，所以當政府高喊經濟成長預測達到7.71%的時候，過半數的基層勞工完全感受不到成長的果實，就會覺得政府在騙他，是這個數字、就是這樣的心態，所以你每公布一次，民怨就提高一次。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:13.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:24.431000+08:00","text":"既然你115年如此樂觀，當然本席也希望是如此數字的呈現，但是你怎麼解釋這種高經濟成長跟低實質薪資增幅的斷層呢？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:29.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:39.168000+08:00","text":"第二個，這種平均薪資的說法不能為主流民意所接受，就好像本席本人，我跟籃球選手姚明平均身高也有190公分，你覺得這個數字對我林岱樺來講，有什麼意義？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:39.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:39.429000+08:00","text":"沒有意義啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:45.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:54.780000+08:00","text":"就好像你說4萬,8000，跟一般老百姓薪資平均3萬8,000，跟30歲以下3萬的，我一定是罵翻政府了。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:55.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:04.504000+08:00","text":"所以這個數據，其實就我們的平均薪資跟薪資中位數，拿台積電的高薪去平均月薪3萬的基層勞工，對他們有意義嗎？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:04.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:04.644000+08:00","text":"所以您怎麼看呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:04.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:04.724000+08:00","text":"主計長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:11.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:30.574000+08:00","text":"其實薪資都有行業別，我們整個薪資的中位數是3萬8,000，3萬8,000是指50%以上就會具有3萬8,000這樣的資格，但是各行業別還是有不同，譬如服務業的薪資大概都是在三萬多出頭到4萬這樣一個階級……","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:30.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:31.574000+08:00","text":"主計長，是這樣啦……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:31.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:32.574000+08:00","text":"有的資通業比較高，七萬多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:30.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:10.746000+08:00","text":"以後公布，不要每次都引起民怨，就覺得我們在騙人民，所以你必須公布實質薪資的成長率，這個東西你一定要同步公布，這樣人民會覺得他們也看著這個數字，今年平均中位數是3萬8,000，也許明年是3萬9,000，或者明年我又多了500塊，這才表示我們的施政有力道，看的是成長、進步，而不是用那個表面的數字，完全是跟現實脫鉤的，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:10.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:26.597000+08:00","text":"是，我要跟委員報告，事實上，我們在公布的時候，各行業別的中位數包括它的平均薪資，包括中位數，各行業別、各年齡別，我們都有公布，並不是沒有公布。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:26.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:28.858000+08:00","text":"好，那麼你的新聞稿要特別註明。是、是。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:29.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:29.199000+08:00","text":"新聞稿不要只有寫4萬8,000。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:30.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:33.542000+08:00","text":"因為這個部分並不是沒有公布，只是因為我們的……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:33.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:34.702000+08:00","text":"你們新聞稿的重點，好嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:34.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:35.702000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:34.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:00:27.975000+08:00","text":"接下來是特別預算常態化的舉債成長跟財政紀律，這個表是從2017年，也就是我爬梳大概這近十年來，現在2026年，這近十年來，從2017年到2025年的基礎前瞻，一直到2019年到2026年的新式戰機採購，到防疫紓困振興、海空戰力提升、疫後強化經濟社會韌性的特別預算，一直到去年還沒通過的強化韌性/國防安全預算大概5,200億，一直到國防特別預算1.25兆，這些數字顯示特別預算累計額度的斜率明顯陡峭化，這正是常態化的最強鐵證。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:00:29.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:05.848000+08:00","text":"從2005年起特別預算累計是0.3兆，中央的債務是3.6兆；2015年特別預算累計是1.1兆，中央債務是5.3兆；2024年特別預算累計是2.6兆，中央債務6.5兆；2025年，我直接就把它加上去了，大概二點五兆多，再加上還沒通過的那兩個特別預算累計到4.3兆，中央債務達6.47兆。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:06.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:32.265000+08:00","text":"也就是過去二十年，我從2025年開始算，比較2025年跟2005年特別預算的增幅，即4.3兆跟0.3兆，增加了14倍，遠遠超過政府債務的成長速度，這代表政府已經不能透過總預算的節流來做事，而是習慣性的開外掛，繞過預算法第八十三條。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:32.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:38.728000+08:00","text":"因此，特別預算是否已成為政府擴張支出的主要工具，而非例外工具？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:39.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:49.033000+08:00","text":"我在這邊有請審計長，審計部點名了五項，即所有的預算有這五項失能，這是你們的報告，第一個、執行率虛胖，第二個、計畫延宕嚴重，第三個、重複補助亂象，第四個、規避正常預算，第五個是年底趕進度。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:49.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:14.808000+08:00","text":"這是審計部針對預算的報告，就以這樣的報告來對應特別預算，特別預算仍是例外嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:14.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:36.201000+08:00","text":"過去十年的特別預算超過了將近2.5兆，我就沒再加上2025年沒通過的，幾乎每兩年就編一個新的，這符合預算法中的不定期或重大政事嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:36.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:44.847000+08:00","text":"如果每年都有重大政事，為什麼不乾脆編進總預算，接受每年一度的細目審查呢？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:46.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:49.968000+08:00","text":"你們是不是真的在規避立法院的監督呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:50.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:51.809000+08:00","text":"這是本席的第二項質疑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:52.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:04.635000+08:00","text":"特別預算是採一次通過、分年執行，這是否大幅削弱立法院在年度預算中逐年刪減、調整計畫的監督權力呢？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:05.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:07.998000+08:00","text":"這是不是叫做空白授權？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:07.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:11.781000+08:00","text":"第三個本席質疑的是，真實的舉債比例為何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:13.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:18.888000+08:00","text":"這2.5兆累計的特別預算當中，有多少是透過舉債支應？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:20.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:30.115000+08:00","text":"債務占GDP的比例下降，這是你們官方的說法，雖然債務占GDP比例下降，但事實上是什麼？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:30.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:42.761000+08:00","text":"是分母（GDP）長大了，分子（債務絕對值）卻是不斷地堆疊，一旦經濟下行，行政院主計總處如何確保財政紀律？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:43.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:44.541000+08:00","text":"先請審計長回應，再請主計長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:46.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:52.289000+08:00","text":"針對特別預算的部分，我們在109年或112年都曾經提醒行政院會常態化，這個部分我們是希望能夠注意到財政永續的問題。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:52.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:54.330000+08:00","text":"我們有統計過，90年到114年我們辦了34個決算，差不多一年1.5個，大部分都舉債，差不多舉債4兆。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:54.330000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:05.112000+08:00","text":"因為我們也憂心這樣的事情，所以這個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:05.112000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:15.894000+08:00","text":"主計長，您來回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:15.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:17.496000+08:00","text":"既然審計長有這樣的建言，基於財政紀律，希望能夠常態地去編列，那你怎麼看？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:33.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:43.893000+08:00","text":"事實上，特別預算並不是很例外，它必須以特別條例，經立法院通過以後，我們才編列預算，所以它是有特殊性的。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:44.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:57.396000+08:00","text":"第二個、其實舉債都受到整個舉債的限制，並沒有放任、不受舉債的限制，所以這個部分在整個債務的控管上，我們一直都控管得很好。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:58.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:58.877000+08:00","text":"因為質詢時間也到了。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:59.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:05.563000+08:00","text":"我最後提醒，數字不應該只是用來美化政績，而是發現問題、解決問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:05.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:12.749000+08:00","text":"預算不能只有特別而沒有紀律，當例外變成常態，這就是對法治跟子孫財政的背叛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:13.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:32+08:00","text":"主計長剛才的回應跟審計長是有衝突的，你們自己要好好針對財政紀律再協調，不要再用GDP的增長來掩蓋債務絕對值的飆升，因為後代子孫、每個世世代代的債務比是在增加的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:32.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:49.506000+08:00","text":"特別預算本來就是例外的制度，近十年來的規模已經累計超過2.5兆元，人民關心的是政府是否把特別預算當成常態，所以請主計總處一個月內提供維持財政紀律的方案給本委員會，可以嗎？好。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:49.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:49.526000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席（林委員岱樺代）","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:50.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:52.026000+08:00","text":"有請吳秉叡委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}