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有請中副部長好 有請中副部長"},{"start":11.98,"end":34.655,"text":"黃委員好您好我們今天就關於在左院長利用松子步去日本看棒球那本席感覺得出來你們也是處於無奈因此本席不會特別責怪空軍但本席還是希望國防都可以協助釐清一些問題那畢竟這件事"},{"start":36.036,"end":43.626,"text":"不是那麼單純的知不知此的棒球而是牽涉到官員以上旗下"},{"start":45.643,"end":66.388,"text":"然後迫使下級機關承擔他們的不該承擔的責任甚至嚴重到以私人身份濫用國防的資源那從媒體的報導中可以知道那左院長包機使用松子部的前一天找了很多相關機關去行政院開專案會議"},{"start":68.961,"end":93.8,"text":"開會一定會有一個開會的通知那本行想要知道開會通知的內容包含發文機關會議主旨開會時間是否為上班的時間那開會地點是否為行政院的會議室開會通知可以公開給本委會是不是可以提供一份"},{"start":95.403,"end":100.038,"text":"一份這一份包含開會的組織能不能提供"},{"start":103.186,"end":131.004,"text":"委員好 我是龔金參謀長跟委員報告那針對剛剛您提到這個會議的部分通知的部分我們都是受到電話通知那召開 與行政院是召開語音的這個方式來做一個會議那邀集相關的單位剛剛您有提到這邊我也不方便做其他的這個單位的回答那這個是沒有正式發函我們是受到電話的通知召開的這個專案會議"},{"start":133.43,"end":153.688,"text":"既然是電話通知而且是松子部包機到日本去第一個我們去想像如果是從松子部包機到任何地方一定是以什麼以他的這個公文為主"},{"start":154.306,"end":177.048,"text":"所以實為公務,公務的行為所以如果是以私人的角度不應該要用公務行為來包機來以下,以上欺下然後責怪到你們這個機關現在很多人誤會,送死部到底是誰的指令你們會願意這樣子"},{"start":180.037,"end":207.923,"text":"冒那麼大的風險然後他們沒有任何的行文然後只是用電話裡面來指示你們要包機用私人的行程裡面這樣的行為已經構成了很多是不是這個比如說堵職或者是有很多的這樣的一個違反公務法的第七條你看看我們想一想"},{"start":208.723,"end":237.202,"text":"我們過去很多的監察院監察院這個所糾正的像秘書長李俊逸監察委員林玉榮王榮章蘇麗瓊遭揭露私用公務車社會觀感非常差所以左院長堅持是私人的事務但動用多個行政機關為了他的私人行程的開會"},{"start":238.824,"end":267.407,"text":"所以這可以說是向全國公務員做出一個最糟糕的示範所以我想你們未來在松子部如果它是真正的街道你們真正的街道是公務行程我想你們就必須要執行如果不是公務行程而是用電話告知然後它必須要包機到日本去你們必須要執行"},{"start":268.568,"end":283.962,"text":"來配合我想你們也有私子的一個問題所以你們提供你們在過程裡面提供給我們本委會一份資料好不好是"},{"start":284.872,"end":309.518,"text":"好 那另外一次是 我想請問一下部長 副部長我已經看了今天的報告 感覺不是在檢討我國對無人機攻擊的報告反而更像是推銷國會同意給錢買武器的一個縮帖那請問副部長 目前國軍防無人機作戰是由誰負責 你來回答"},{"start":310.37,"end":328.077,"text":"目前整個國軍反無人機的作戰是由參謀本部來規劃負責整個反無人機作戰所以參謀本部所謂參謀本部有沒有包含空軍有包含空軍有包含空軍當然他的參謀本部的指揮官就是由總長來負責好待會我會提出幾項的問題所在因為"},{"start":332.159,"end":350.697,"text":"你認為國軍目前對無人機攻擊最薄弱的地方是什麼據本席了解最薄弱的地方除了國軍缺乏反無人機的專用武器外還有什麼第一即使是無人機國軍主要針對的還是高價值"},{"start":351.874,"end":372.033,"text":"高價值的目標對小型無人機封群準備不足第二防無人機的能力集中的防空單位戰術單位卻很薄弱那尤其是小型的無人機這個封群對國軍的壓力非常大但這個在"},{"start":374.9,"end":401.134,"text":"蘭德公司和新美國安行中心的兵推中都已經明確的指出了這也是吐血我國防無人機作戰集中的防空單位的問題由於小型無人機的飛行距離有限無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到台灣所以共勤的小型無人機風起想要對國軍"},{"start":403.335,"end":430.88,"text":"構成威脅首先要取得什麼要取得制海制空權再由大型無人機或兩棲艦艇甚至以武裝漁船放飛無人機的風巡所以因此國軍最有效的反制無人機風行作為很大程度反而是在海軍的反艦作戰而不是空軍的防空作戰"},{"start":432.14,"end":448.585,"text":"當我們提到反制無人機的時候從來不會有人提出海軍在這個當中的角色所以部長要做到完整的防無人機體系各軍種要如何配合各自負責什麼樣的任務你來提一下"},{"start":449.485,"end":470.68,"text":"所以剛剛委員指導也非常正確就是說我們現在對於整個這個板子無人機的部分我們必須要將現在的整個防空5G上面去做一個整合包含到我們區分高層中層以及低層那如何有效做到這個分層的攔截高度的"},{"start":471.42,"end":499.254,"text":"感知以及有效的這個防禦有效攔截跟防禦這個部分這中間需要一個戰場管理系統去整合它那這也是我們目前在努力的手段所以我們目前整個這個反無人機的部分當然您剛剛指導非常正確的地方就是說風群的無人機戰術它目前可能施行的方式是從海上或者是登陸之後來做一個大量以及風群的一個戰術"},{"start":500.675,"end":520.713,"text":"目前在我們目前的所有狀態防護設施上面我們也已經建置了相關的一個板制的部分包含到無人機的板制系統機炮的一個板制系統甚至我們一區整體安全上面也律定了相關的一些規定能夠板制您剛剛所講的包含到一二類的三種無人機"},{"start":521.494,"end":542.219,"text":"因為實驗因素,第一個提出來的縱然是有幾項是重點,可是本席認為有很大的一個反差,為什麼?因為你們的準備不足,我本席提出完整的防無人性的體系應該有幾項,第一個空清負責空液,"},{"start":543.9,"end":563.401,"text":"監控與防空指揮第二海軍負責打擊海上無人機平台第三海巡針對武裝漁船或海上民兵船等灰色地帶來做一個監控那第四陸軍前線部隊反無人機第五"},{"start":565.37,"end":590.478,"text":"電戰部隊進行電子壓制與干擾這幾項就是你們應該要加強的現在我們的無人機反而現在是走傳統的傳統的這樣防空的體系我說這個也是很落後的我希望能夠跟我提出來的應該分層負責在各個單位裡面有五項提出來"},{"start":591.218,"end":612.294,"text":"因為國軍的無人性能力簡單來說只停留在傳統的防空體系所以跨軍軍種的配合薄弱還是缺乏體系化作戰的概念部長你認為我提出的這個有沒有道理"},{"start":613.014,"end":632.66,"text":"我簡單跟委員做個說明因為這個反制無人機系統台灣之盾是針對整個台灣本島的一個防空防疫去做一個整體的規劃那您剛剛所提有關艦隊防空以及海軍的反艦作戰或是基地防衛裡面其實各軍種各自有他自己的一個防務系統"},{"start":633.32,"end":659.543,"text":"那目前我們希望把台灣本島的所有的陸海空的一個高中低層的防空武器做一個有效的整合來因應防護台灣本島的一個防空那有關這個板制在有關這個爭奪制空制海權的部分各自軍種他當然有他自己本身的一個自我防衛的一個能力跟板建的能力這兩個部分是要分開在所以剛剛我已經提出來嘛"},{"start":660.223,"end":677.966,"text":"我們我國的反無人機的作戰集中在防空單位的問題由於這個小型無人機的飛行的距離有限所以無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到台灣所以它的距離"},{"start":678.827,"end":707.469,"text":"不夠遠所以要有什麼載具比如說反艦艇比如說要用民船民兵在過程裡面來做一個載運然後再來進行無人機的這樣的一個飛行戰鬥所以這個就是一個你們要思考的我們還是停留在一個傳統防空的一個系統嘛所以我今天要提的是我們買了這麼多的無人機但是我們今天要看它的"},{"start":708.25,"end":712.763,"text":"效能能不能達到他的標準所以你們要重新的檢討啊 好不好好 謝謝委員指導"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:50.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:50.696000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:51.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:52.828000+08:00","text":"有請鍾副部長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T09:55:52.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:55:53.794000+08:00","text":"有請鍾副部長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T09:56:00.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:56:02.201000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。你好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:56:04.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:56:43.925000+08:00","text":"關於卓院長利用松指部去日本看棒球，本席感覺得出來你們也是出於無奈，因此本席不會特別責怪空軍，但本席還是希望國防部可以協助釐清一些問題，畢竟這件事不是那麼單純的支不支持棒球，而是牽扯到官員以上欺下、迫使下級機關承擔他們不該承擔的責任，甚至嚴重到以私人身分濫用國防資源。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:56:45.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:10.831000+08:00","text":"從媒體的報導中可以知道，卓院長包機使用松指部的前一天找了很多相關機關去行政院開專案會議，開會一定會有開會通知，本席想要知道開會通知的內容，包含發文機關、會議主旨、開會時間是否為上班的時間？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:11.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:14.954000+08:00","text":"開會地點是否為行政院的會議室？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:16.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:21.559000+08:00","text":"開會通知可以公開給本委員會嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:21.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:27.152000+08:00","text":"是不是可以提供這一份包含開會主旨的開會通知？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:28.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:29.018000+08:00","text":"能不能提供？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:32.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:33.307000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是空軍參謀長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:33.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:57:53.740000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，針對剛剛您提到會議的部分，通知的部分我們都是收到電話通知召開，與行政院是透過語音的方式進行會議，至於邀集的相關單位，剛剛您有提到，這邊我也不方便做其他單位的回答。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T09:57:55.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:00.004000+08:00","text":"這個是沒有正式發函，我們是收到電話通知召開這個專案會議。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:02.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:08.776000+08:00","text":"既然是電話通知，而且是從松指部包機到日本去。是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:09.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:26.229000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們去想像，如果是從松指部包機到任何地方，一定是以公文為主，所以實為公務的行為。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:27.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:41.844000+08:00","text":"但如果是以私人的角度，就不應該用公務行為包機，以上欺下，然後責怪到你們這個機關。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:41.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:58:45.187000+08:00","text":"現在很多人誤會松指部到底是收到誰的指令？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:58:45.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:15.983000+08:00","text":"你們會願意冒那麼大風險，而且沒有任何行文，就只是在電話裡面指示你們說要包機，而且是私人行程，這樣的行為已經構成比如說瀆職，或者是違反公務法第七條。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:16.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T09:59:56.150000+08:00","text":"我們想一想，過去很多監察院所糾正的，像秘書長李俊俋、監察委員林郁容、王榮璋、蘇麗瓊等都遭揭露私用公務車，社會觀感非常差，卓院長堅持是私人事務，但動用多個行政機關為了他的私人行程開會，這個可以說是向全國公務員做出了一個最糟糕的示範。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T09:59:56.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:00:32.942000+08:00","text":"所以我想未來松指部如果真正接到是公務行程，我想你們就必須要執行……如果不是公務行程而是用電話告知要包機到日本去，而你們必須要配合，我想你們也有失職的問題，所以請你們提供1份整個過程的資料給本委員會，好不好？是。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:00:34.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:00:58.098000+08:00","text":"另外想請問副部長，我看了今天的報告，感覺不是在檢討我國對無人機攻擊的報告，反而更像是推銷國會同意給錢買武器的一個說帖，請問副部長，目前國軍反無人機作戰是由誰負責？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:00:58.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:00:58.498000+08:00","text":"請你回答。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:00:59.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:06.593000+08:00","text":"目前整個國軍反無人機的作戰，是由參謀本部規劃負責整個反無人機作戰的部分。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:07.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:09.654000+08:00","text":"所謂參謀本部有沒有包含空軍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:09.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:15.317000+08:00","text":"有包含空軍，當然它的參謀本部指揮官就是由總長負責。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:15.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:27.265000+08:00","text":"好，我將提出幾項的問題所在，你認為國軍目前對無人機攻擊最薄弱的地方是什麼？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:27.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:01:46.139000+08:00","text":"據本席了解，最薄弱的地方除了國軍缺乏反無人機的專用武器外，還有第一，即使是無人機，國軍主要針對的還是高價值的目標，對小型無人機蜂群的準備不足。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:01:46.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:16.527000+08:00","text":"第二，反無人機能力集中在防空單位，戰術單位卻很薄弱，尤其是小型的無人機蜂群對國軍的壓力非常大，這在蘭德公司和新美國安全中心的兵推中都已經明確的指出了，但這也是凸顯出我國反無人機作戰集中在防空單位問題。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:16.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:47.538000+08:00","text":"由於小型無人機的飛行距離有限，無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到臺灣，所以，共軍的小型無人機蜂群想要對國軍構成威脅，首先要取得制海及制空權，再由大型無人機或兩棲艦艇，甚至以武裝漁船放飛無人機蜂群。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:02:48.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:02:59.880000+08:00","text":"因此，國軍最有效的反制無人機蜂群作為，很大程度反而是在海軍的反艦作戰而不是空軍的防空作戰。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:01.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:14.784000+08:00","text":"當我們提到反制無人機的時候，從來不會有人提出海軍在這個當中的角色，所以部長，要做到完整的反無人機體系，各軍種要如何配合？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:15.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:17.105000+08:00","text":"各自負責什麼樣的任務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:17.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:03:17.565000+08:00","text":"你來說明一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:03:19.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:29.713000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員指導也非常正確，我們現在對於整個反制無人機的部分必須要在防空武器上面做一個整合，包含區分高層、中層以及低層，那如何有效做到分層的攔截、高度的感知以及有效攔截跟防禦的部分，這中間需要一個戰場管理系統去整合它，這也是我們目前在努力的手段，所以我們目前整個反無人機的部分，當然您剛剛指導非常正確的地方，就是蜂群的無人機戰術目前可能施行的方式是從海上或者是登陸之後來做大量以及蜂群的戰術，目前所有的重要防護設施上面也已經建置了相關反制的部分，包含無人機及機砲的反制系統，甚至我們營區整體安全也律定了相關的規定，能夠反制您剛剛所講的，包含一、二類的商用無人機。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:30.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:41.377000+08:00","text":"好，因為時間因素，第一個提出來的縱然有幾項是重點，可是本席認為有很大的一個反差，為什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:41.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:54.902000+08:00","text":"因為你們的準備不足，本席提出完整的反無人機體系應該有下列幾項，第一，空軍負責空域監控與防空指揮。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:54.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:04:58.847000+08:00","text":"第二，海軍負責打擊海上無人機平臺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:04:59.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:06.935000+08:00","text":"第三，海巡針對武裝漁船或海上民兵船等灰色地帶做監控。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:07.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:12.201000+08:00","text":"第四，陸軍前線部隊反無人機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:12.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:19.172000+08:00","text":"第五，電戰部隊進行電子壓制與干擾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:19.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:05:57.111000+08:00","text":"這幾項就是你們應該要加強的，現在我們的無人機反而是走傳統的防空體系，這是很落後的，剛才我提出來裡面有五項希望各個單位能夠分層負責，簡單來說，國軍的反無人機能力只停留在傳統的防空體系，所以跨軍種的配合薄弱，還是缺乏體系化作戰的概念。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:05:57.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:06:01.274000+08:00","text":"副部長，你認為我提出這個有沒有道理？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:06:02.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:06:33.089000+08:00","text":"我簡單跟委員做個說明，因為這個是反制無人機的系統，而臺灣之盾是針對整個臺灣本島的防空、防禦去做整體的規劃，您剛剛所提有關艦隊防空、海軍的反艦作戰或基地防衛，其實各軍種有各自的防護系統，目前我們希望把臺灣本島所有陸海空高、中、低層的防空武器做有效的整合來因應防護臺灣本島的防空。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:06:33.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:06:47.001000+08:00","text":"有關這一個反制及爭奪制空、制海權的部分，各軍種當然有它自己本身的自我防衛能力跟反艦的能力，這兩個部分是要分開做檢討的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:06:47.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:06:48.523000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛我已經提出來了嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:06:49.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:07:30.324000+08:00","text":"我國反無人機的作戰集中在防空單位的問題，由於小型無人機飛行的距離有限，所以無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到臺灣，因為它的距離不夠遠所以要有相關載具，比如反艦艇，比如要用民船、民兵在過程中做載運，然後再進行無人機的飛行與戰鬥，所以這就是你們要思考的，我們還是停留在傳統防空的系統嘛！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:07:31.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:07:40.901000+08:00","text":"我今天要提的是，我們買了這麼多無人機，但是要看它的效能能不能達到它的標準，所以你們要重新的檢討啊！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-16T10:07:41.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:07:41.643000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:07:41.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:07:41.763000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員指導。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T10:07:42.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:07:46.263000+08:00","text":"好，接下來請王安祥委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}