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我要慢慢介紹一下慢慢來不及"},{"start":1907.267,"end":1920.727,"text":"第八位是我們台灣大學法律學院的柯克中柯教授教授好第九位是我們真理大學法律系吳景清系主任"},{"start":1924.129,"end":1930.231,"text":"現在先來高的我們待會有機會我們再一個一個來介紹再來介紹我們到場的委員是我們陳培宇委員接著我來介紹我們今天列席的政府機關代表我們司法院副秘書長王美英副秘書長還有"},{"start":1953.334,"end":1955.636,"text":"我們司法行政廳廳長吳祚成廳長"},{"start":1961.482,"end":1985.5,"text":"法務部政務次長徐徐翔徐次長檢察司司長張曉雯張司長檢察司主任檢察官范孟山主任檢察官還有其餘的機關代表我就不再逐一介紹了相如我們這個出席的名單並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1989.197,"end":1995.421,"text":"剛剛到場第十位的是我們紀凱峰律師事務所紀凱峰主持律師歡迎你我們現在請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":2006.431,"end":2025.541,"text":"法院組織法有關司法公開透明修正立法制探討公聽會討論提綱第一大點關於死刑判決評議部保存期限修正立法制探討其下一二三點請參閱會議書面資料第二大點關於司法公開透明相關立法修正立法制探討"},{"start":2027.162,"end":2034.871,"text":"1.進行裁判書公開、法庭錄音等措施,是否系司法公開、透明、有效之制度性落實。2."},{"start":2034.871,"end":2042.5,"text":"立法採行法庭活動公開播送之必要性。以下括弧一至括弧三之提綱及及各點提綱,請參閱會議書面資料。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2049.568,"end":2071.902,"text":"好 我們在 我就不另作引言的一個致詞我們現在來把今天的程序來做一個說明在邀請各位發言之前我們先就公聽會進行的程序來進行說明首先我們請學者專家先發言然後發言的順序我們依照簽到的先後的順序"},{"start":2072.762,"end":2092.247,"text":"那如果需要提前發言的請先來告知主席台我們會視情況來做一個調整那本院的委員按照登記的先後順序來做一個發言如果是陸續到場的話那我主席這邊我們就會來安排這個穿插那請委員來做一個發言"},{"start":2093.187,"end":2120.771,"text":"那最後我們再來請這個機關政府機關代表來發言針對學者專家跟委員的意見來加以回應與會者我們請到發言台這邊來做一個發言在主席右手邊是等一下我的右手這邊這個地方是學者專家列席的機關代表的發言台左邊就是管理叫委員的發言台"},{"start":2121.431,"end":2144.869,"text":"那由於那個公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的一個意見所以每一位學者專家發言的時間我們原則上就八分鐘那必要的時候我們再給予延長兩分鐘那本院委員發言的時間因為其實我們發言的時間機會都非常多所以就五分鐘 五分鐘今天不用記錄 這剛才都是學者專家比較乖 比較乖"},{"start":2150.168,"end":2173.528,"text":"那另外呢 首先我就請我們學者專家來發言那即時發言名單 請大家詳盡我自己看就好了 你們看得到電腦裡面都有我們第一位 我們現在就來請社團法人台北市晚勤婦女協會 蘇小玲理事長"},{"start":2194.997,"end":2215.245,"text":"各位長官各位學者專家大家好我是台北市晚情婦女協會代表蘇小玲那我今天要說的這個主題就是反對開放家事事件審理直播守護關係中的弱勢者的尊嚴與隱私那以下呢就是有四點"},{"start":2225.171,"end":2243.898,"text":"意見就是第一是家事家事審理具高度的隱私公開直播會造成這個二次傷害那家庭是家庭家事法庭處理的其實不只是法律的事件但是其"},{"start":2245.078,"end":2261.92,"text":"極其脆弱的家庭關係與人際傷痕許多婦女是在忍耐多年家內不對等的權利甚至精神控制下才鼓起勇氣訴諸司法如果他們"},{"start":2262.941,"end":2284.899,"text":"必須在可能被公開播送的法庭中 揭露痛苦的經驗那對他們而言 是一種再次曝露 甚至羞辱 嚴重打擊其訴訟意願第二點是 雙方同意就可以直播 忽略了權力不對等與情緒勒索"},{"start":2286.857,"end":2313.994,"text":"我們關注到目前家事事件法第九條允許當事人同意可公開但在實務中這類的同意往往是被操控或壓迫的結果特別是在控制型關係中弱勢的一方可能在不敢不同意的情況下被迫讓步我們不能將這種形式的同意視為實質的自主"},{"start":2317.196,"end":2345.738,"text":"第三點直播可能引發網路暴力與媒體二次炒作即使法院嚴格把關直播內容一旦被片段擷取轉載或失控傳播可能成為網路輿論的對象形成公審對婦女與其家庭造成無可回復的社會汙名與心理創傷"},{"start":2347.523,"end":2376.094,"text":"第四點家庭法庭不是社會觀感秀而是而是應該以修復與保護為核心家庭的功能法庭的功能不應該只滿足社會透明的好奇心而是應該是保護關係中弱者的避風港我們贊成司法應該有公開的原則但這應透過"},{"start":2377.847,"end":2397.88,"text":"的裁判書透明審判機制監督等方式達成而不是犧牲當事人隱私來換取假性的公證最後我們呼籲立法院與司法院在推動法庭直播的同時應保留"},{"start":2399.468,"end":2423.845,"text":"家事案件的高度保密性並正視婦女與兒少在家庭關係中所處的不對等處境晚秦婦女協會將持續為此聲音發聲願與各界共同守護一個安全更有人性的司法環境謝謝大家"},{"start":2430.407,"end":2437.151,"text":"我們第二位我們就常在國際法律事務所的吳薇雅吳律師主席各位委員各位與會的專家學者各位先進還有各位司法院法務部以及各級政府部門的這個長官們大家早安"},{"start":2455.768,"end":2470.598,"text":"那在我是吳維雅常來國際法律事務所律師那在呃呈述我的意見之前我簡單介紹一下我的背景喔那我曾經是在這個檢方跟院方的時間長達有20年那一半的資歷是在檢方當檢察官另外一半"},{"start":2474.54,"end":2482.492,"text":"一半的資歷在院方當 從事審判工作那目前是職業律師也有很多的這個訴訟案件的經驗 職業經驗那對於這個議題也就是40審的法律直播很這個"},{"start":2491.404,"end":2505.272,"text":"比較特殊的經驗是站在這三個不同的職場領域上面我的立場都是一致的就是對於市、省、法院、法庭活動直播我個人目前是採取一個保留反對的態度"},{"start":2506.633,"end":2530.7,"text":"那我們可以看一下這一次在野黨提出來的法院組織法第九十條它是在關係文書裡面是說事實審的法庭活動直播是原則不公開播送 例外公開因為目前這些相關的配置規套其實在法條裡面是很概括我們是看不出來"},{"start":2531.88,"end":2546.051,"text":"但是我們可以看一下他的立法理由他說主要是要權衡要捍衛人民知的權利那我們知道說這個知的權利其實就是憲法上保障的言論自由的一環人民有獲知資訊的權利"},{"start":2548.593,"end":2563.017,"text":"但是呢在審判的這個法庭活動裡面我們仍然要兼顧很多其他的憲法上面保障的基本的這個價值也就是要公平審判同時要兼顧這些程序訴訟程序的參與者使用者的相關的權益那當然啊這個我們所謂的知的權利目的是在於說要有個公開透明防止濫權大家一起來監督這樣子的目的"},{"start":2577.281,"end":2581.045,"text":"好那我們回歸到比例原則要達成這樣的目的我們要採取什麼方法目前現階段的關於這個就是說透明監督防止濫權我們現有的方法就是有公開法庭公開審判甚至在比較這個敏感的矚目的案件裡面呢"},{"start":2597.64,"end":2604.542,"text":"法大的法庭不夠容納民眾很多法庭會採取一個延伸法庭也就是開一個小法庭用視訊現場的方式讓與會的旁聽者可以及時的來接收這些訊息並且我們有直接審理判決也是公開的全程錄音而且現在還有一個對律師很好的制度就是全程委外的轉譯所以我們不用擔心法庭的筆錄有任何的"},{"start":2625.589,"end":2652.42,"text":"可能不夠完足被扭曲這些呢還有國民法官其實這一些在在的都是在保障一個程序的透明公開可受監督那我們就要問說那現在這個版本新版本提出來說要公播直播改變了原先的方法採取一個更廣泛的方法這樣子的一個立法它有沒有就是一個這樣的方法它有沒有一個必要性以及呢"},{"start":2653.28,"end":2682.84,"text":"我們是不是為盟其利先受其害以及我們要付出什麼代價我們要犧牲什麼樣的價值那這個所謂的很多人會就是說這個在黨提出的版本他可能會說那我們這些公開法庭跟直播都是展現在人民眼前有什麼不同當然大大的不同第一個它的擴散度以及就是在言論自由行使的一個界限跟限制以及"},{"start":2684.401,"end":2706.021,"text":"課則性就有很大的差別怎麼說呢今天我們公開的法庭是每一位堂聽的民眾都要如實身體力行的到法庭來他必須全程的觀察全程的了解並且也受到硬體設備的限制我們可以達到一個就是避免他"},{"start":2707.142,"end":2732.51,"text":"字義的錄音錄影啊這些在一個有形的一個空間裡面都是可以做到一個管理的但是如果說公播以後呢公播以後我現在實在是不曉得它公播的範圍對象到底是什麼因為法條不明但是我們一般公播直播的概念就是說這個東西它不然就是即時不然就是所謂的錄影在播放"},{"start":2733.51,"end":2760.487,"text":"都是就是把這個法庭的活動可能是藉由一個這個傳播的方式透過這個公開的方式讓全民大眾甚至這個是無遠佛界的不只是全國人民是因為網路是無遠佛界的所以是跨洋跨海各國全球的人可能點這個連結就可以來看直播那這有什麼樣的一個危險呢一個風險呢那就是"},{"start":2761.408,"end":2774.677,"text":"我們所有的人到法庭來都要受到管制全程的接收完整的資訊但在公播以後這些躲在這個鍵盤後面的鍵盤俠這些所謂的就是社會的這些網路的使用者"},{"start":2777.899,"end":2787.146,"text":"它可以隨意的點擊然後可能呢開始就會製造了很多的評論區即便是我們的司法部門它在公播的連結下沒有評論區人民會製造很多的評論那這個評論呢可能就是可以"},{"start":2794.591,"end":2809.924,"text":"就是說這個這個這裡面就會很好操縱為什麼呢因為我們知道法院的判決是非常的有一個對立性的我們作為在我以前當一個法官的時候永遠我們都要認知到我們不可能滿足所有的訴訟當事人"},{"start":2811.605,"end":2839.856,"text":"我不是判這個A勝就是B敗一定有一方對於結果是不滿意的那如果說用成直播的話呢就因為這個送真性對弈性非常強就非常的容易淪為一種被認知戰各位不要以為認知戰是在國安層級的認知戰其實在任何我們大家生活的周遭都有可能是會被成為認知戰的對象不管是目的是商業目的或者是社會議題的目的那在這個情況之下呢"},{"start":2840.916,"end":2864.629,"text":"這個 恣意的被點擊 恣意可以發表評論甚至喔 各位可以想像一種場景 那就是法官呢 一邊的 如果我們開了直播 開了camera法官一邊 跟國民法官一邊在審欸 底下的這一些人民就開始來製造一個投票箱我們來投票 有罪無罪判多久全部都列出來 我們來投票來決定這有沒有可能發生 是有 非常有可能的"},{"start":2865.109,"end":2869.633,"text":"再者這個賭盤 地下賭盤也可以開始就是下注啦我們來賭這個有罪無罪那這樣子的一個情況是不是能夠發揮司法爭議以及這個未來會不會成為一個所謂的司法產業鏈包括這個職業網軍還可以暴動判決你如果就是說職業網軍可以是來你想要什麼樣的判決結果"},{"start":2888.71,"end":2916.389,"text":"你可以托付什么样的职业网群洗风向 戴风向给你严上 给你这个操控人民的认知然后带动这样子一个判决给法院压力 不当的压力那你说法官会不会受害法官本来就应该独立超然做出决断但是在这种氛围下我们给这样法官的压力是适当的吗对于司法正义是有帮助的吗这个大家都要去思考"},{"start":2917.37,"end":2938.523,"text":"那另外一點就是從程序的使用者來看,這個制度的目的其實都不在加惠程序使用者,為什麼呢?我時間到了是不是?因為呢,這個程序的使用者都在程序裡面啦,他們對於整個程序就是整個運作知之甚想啊,那到底這個程序在保護誰?"},{"start":2940.145,"end":2948.103,"text":"這個制度的目的到底是要加惠誰其實除了說只有表演或者宣傳或者是作為一種就是說"},{"start":2949.717,"end":2970.989,"text":"過度的擴散不負責任的言論不負責任的評論導致影響判決影響法官除了這樣的結果我們在程序的使用者裡面找不到任何家會程序的使用者比如說被告各位在座的各位都是各方的先進達人但是我們永遠要記得我們任何一個在社會上的人尤其是現在這個"},{"start":2972.91,"end":2992.197,"text":"人跟人的關係緊密 經濟活動蒼盛 社會連結緊密的情況下每個人都有可能成為潛在的被告包括在座的每一位 有可能是被誤解 被冤屈 被不平就是無罪推定 嚴格的法定證據主義 還有"},{"start":2994.569,"end":3011.899,"text":"丟不來這個正當法律程序所要保護的那如果我們今天把他全部堆上公播台一個人在還沒有經過審判之前本來就是應該被無罪推定但是呢 推上公播台以後全民可以公審最後呢 這個人縱使是無罪的結果"},{"start":3012.719,"end":3032.642,"text":"他的權利可以回復嗎 他受的這些損失 又誰來彌補他呢所以這個東西都是要去審慎的考量 更不要說其他的訴訟參與者 包括證人 被害人即便是一般市警小民的案子 他們在法庭作證都極端的懼怕 有些人是第一次來法庭"},{"start":3033.743,"end":3059.543,"text":"我們其實很多心理測驗這個行為科學都是會有一個鏡頭在對著你對人類的行為絕對有產生一個扭曲的效果這就是寒蟬效應更不要說一些重大的組織犯罪人口 販運這些案件的被害人他怎麼敢去陳述事實呢這對於發現真實是有很大的妨礙那這誰最高興我要說這個制度最高興的就是肥了誰"},{"start":3061.385,"end":3084.981,"text":"網紅、直播主、政論節目的參與者他們可以蹭流量、賺流量甚至把這個司法產業鏈可以商業化、金錢化、有價化甚至來操控主流民意來操弄人心那配合職業網軍未來很可能判決結果都是可以用金錢來堆砌的這是我們非常不願意見到的一個結果"},{"start":3086.542,"end":3109.889,"text":"那很抱歉 我的發言有點超過 那以上是我個人意見這個制度呢 還有這些條文 我們剛講的這些缺失在條文裡面我們都看不到一個對應的機制所以這個條文呢 一旦通過對人民來講是無比的災害 對司法更是那我想我們應該要更審慎來思考 謝謝好 謝謝吳大律師 接下來請程培宇委員發言"},{"start":3116.298,"end":3138.006,"text":"謝謝律師你幫我上了一課身為法盲我非常感謝你身為法盲為什麼還可以在這裡發言因為看到提案是更法盲的提案好謝謝主席我想要講一下這一次這個相關版本是民眾黨所提出來的修正版本但是我要提醒民眾黨還有相關如果後續要支持的在野黨委員"},{"start":3139.546,"end":3156.482,"text":"這一次的法案版本是直接禁覆二讀如果他們真的覺得這個法案這麼好他們為什麼要直接禁覆二讀為什麼不直接在委員會裡面討論呢所以我要先提出這個質疑同時我也就要感謝主席安排今天這個公聽會讓社會大眾有機會透過今天直播一樣是直播的公聽會"},{"start":3157.762,"end":3185.97,"text":"聽見所有專業的聲音我認為這件事情非常非常重要所以我今天的發言會針對兩個部分一個是修法本身還有就是禁風二讀民眾黨一貫採取的手法來討論第一個關於事實審在法庭直播的這個部分我對這個提案表達高度的疑慮他們一直說這個可以促成所謂的司法公開透明可是事實上目前為止除了特定的案件之外其實大部分的法庭審理剛剛律師也都說了我們一般人都可以走進去旁聽"},{"start":3186.73,"end":3214.633,"text":"除了高度社會關注的案件像凱凱案以外可能因為人太多我們才需要抽籤所以如果連這件事情大家都不知道就認為直播才可以促進所謂公開透明那真的是大錯特錯此外呢現在所有的判決書也都可以公開上網裡面會有判決理由會有訴訟代理人會有檢察官還有法官的名字也都看得到因此公開透明的目的就已經達到了同時還可以監督司法所以我真的不知道為什麼會有這個提案"},{"start":3216.374,"end":3227.658,"text":"但是如果談到法庭直播到底會出現什麼問題我想要提醒大家目前如果真的透過法庭直播因為他沒有辦法及時的隱蔽所謂比較敏感性的資訊所以有很多原來在判決書裡面我們會做去識別化的處理這些資訊跟內容在第一時間就會被直播"},{"start":3238.701,"end":3267.256,"text":"放送出去如同刚刚律师说的所有的网红就会在第一时间剪辑相关影片制造错假讯息操控人心他有专业的网军在后面操控我们不知道在后续相关同一个案件审理上会不会给法官给证人给检察官带来莫名其妙的压力这个是我们都很担心的而这个放送出去的同时他也侵害了当事人的隐私还有我刚刚说的证人鉴定人都会受到影响"},{"start":3267.856,"end":3287.202,"text":"另外呢在提案中他們提到法庭的直播發起權限一是由被告申請二是由法院依照職權可以來申請直播我先說我不知道什麼樣的被告會想要讓自己的審判第一時間公諸於世我更難以想像"},{"start":3287.742,"end":3290.343,"text":"有怎麼樣的辯護人會想要把自己的當事人送上全國直播所以我看到民眾黨這個進步二讀的提案版本要依被告申請這個立法模式我真的是要說前所未見另外呢 被告申請"},{"start":3303.328,"end":3329.651,"text":"的同時他也不需要讓其他當事人甚至是證人鑑定人他們的陳述意見他們第一時間可不可以同意這件事情完全沒有在修法當中配套機制有提到一樣是莫名其妙粗糙的修法我認為他們這個動作會把審判變成秀場把交互結論變成一場大戲把法官的自由行政最後變成全民公審"},{"start":3330.552,"end":3344.673,"text":"而剛剛前面兩位專家學者都已經提到不管是相關家暴的案例或者是後續網軍的操控這難道是我們真的期待的司法公開透明審判模式嗎接下來我想要談一下目前民眾黨"},{"start":3346.154,"end":3361.722,"text":"堅持把這個提案禁覆二讀可是我發現在這一屆司法法事委員會或是整個立法院有一個非常奇怪的現象他們很喜歡把自己的法案禁覆二讀我想要問如果民眾黨你們真的認為自己的法案這麼好你們為什麼不好好在委員會"},{"start":3362.502,"end":3384.899,"text":"得到更多國民的支持 得到更多法學專家人士的支持而是決定禁覆二讀我可以猜想 如果後續他們還是要決定開著這個私塾列車往前衝我們可能很遺憾的 又到院會去表決最後讓他們三讀通過我想要說 這一年以來以黃國昌為首的所謂卡提諾法學派一直在要求直播"},{"start":3385.439,"end":3402.757,"text":"而我因為這一個會期擔任黨團幹部我看到非常多荒謬的提案他都要直播包含國安簡報他要直播是要直播給誰看總統邀請大家共商國事他也要直播關於行政院召開黨團會議邀請各個黨邊進行關稅衝擊協商他也要直播"},{"start":3407.282,"end":3421.989,"text":"我不知道到底叫做台灣民眾黨還是叫做台灣直播黨我都開始擔心會不會以後所有立法委員吃飯睡覺這些都要被要求公開直播所以最後我想要講回歸司法層面前一陣子藍白直衝北檢我認為那已經是妨礙司法公正給予司法施壓但是他們在相關的提案裡面卻一樣只敢處理不法關說不敢處理施壓"},{"start":3432.794,"end":3455.811,"text":"施壓司法的罪到目前為止還想把法院的直播禁覆二讀把司法審判變成全民公審我認為這是給司法體系造成更大的壓力而且可能會造成更多公民的遺憾所以我要堅決的反對這個提案也希望今天後續聽到所有專家學者的意見讓提案的黨團跟委員可以及時煞車以上 謝謝"},{"start":3458.475,"end":3466.149,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員接下來我們請法務部司法官學院學務組蔡元是蔡組長"},{"start":3470.394,"end":3495.624,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進首先我要先跟各位報告我的職稱掛的是司法關係學院的學務組長那我接下來發言還是僅代表我個人我並不代表我現在所介調辦事的機關那這個議題對我來講我們從結論上面來先說啦對於這個法律省的開放這個直播或者是說對於延伸法庭的使用這個我沒有意見但是對於40省的時播我個人反對"},{"start":3497.104,"end":3518.423,"text":"我們用直播去概括他這件事情可能也講得不太精確我們現在談的應該因為還包含了延遲播送這件事情所以比較精準的講應該是法庭也應得公開播送這件議題我在八年前我自己本身是司改國是會議委員是第四分組的委員所以對我來講他是一個趨之不善的法庭幽靈"},{"start":3519.344,"end":3548.409,"text":"我不是在說直播這件事情不能夠被討論而是即使在目前看了草案的規定之後我對於事實上直播的疑慮還是沒有完全解散那我得這樣說就是說我們在談這件事情的時候我真正自己心裡最關切的問題其實是在於對於事實發現的真實發現的傷害這個傷害它可能是隱形的不可見的但是它是非常重大的"},{"start":3549.029,"end":3567.789,"text":"我們可以想像這件事情,我昨天才問我那個法律素人舅舅說,你若被做敬靈,像現在這個矚目的案件,不要說別的啦,北檢的虐童殺人案,或者現在的政治案件,叫你上台做證人或鑑定人,然後外面同時一邊在罵藍處,一邊在罵立區,然後大家各自發表自己的立場,你會不會害怕?"},{"start":3568.43,"end":3596.316,"text":"我想每個人都會害怕那法庭上最常見的一種場景是什麼當有一個我做了二十幾年的假官那絕大多數的時間都在法庭的審判現場你最大多數可以看到一個場景有一個證人坐在法庭的中央然後被一群恰隆恰宏的兄弟圍起來他們可能是被告部隊坐在後面然後法官就問他們說請問你在這些被告面前能不能自由陳述證人就會告訴你說可以但你接下來問到的問題就是我不知道或我不記得"},{"start":3597.591,"end":3618.8,"text":"因為人都有求生的本能而這件事情這個對於真實發現的影響跟衝擊是你事前沒有辦法正確的預估沒有辦法防止事後甚至沒有辦法很好的檢測但是它是真實存在的我們在談這件事情的時候主要談的是能不能增加司法的透明但司法的透明不是一個自主的價值"},{"start":3620.12,"end":3649.47,"text":"司法的透明如果他會抵觸逾越損毀我們關於公正審判或關於這個真實發現的這樣子最主要的目標這個東西我們就要重新再做考慮當一個證人或鑑定人在台上的時候他被放在公眾的觀察底下同時他事後可能被列其窺私同時他事後可能會因為這樣子被苛責他就可能會改變他的陳述意願或者是陳述的內容而這件事情如果我們去問說如果我讓他事前同意是不是就好"},{"start":3650.17,"end":3679.378,"text":"證人鑑定人同意就好了嗎證人跟鑑定人的事前同意可能都會引起另外一波的批判所以他能不能取得他的真摯同意本身都是一個難解的議題所以基本上來講我覺得事實省的法庭直播這件事情對於真實發現的影響太過巨大我個人覺得沒有一個好的方式即使你用所謂的科技隱匿方式去幫他做身份上面的隱匿但是單純從他的談話的脈絡以及相對的背景其實要肉搜出這個"},{"start":3679.918,"end":3696.425,"text":"並沒有什麼特別困難的那另外一件事情就是說那如果我們依照法條把它限制在公開的辯論或者是裁判的宣示上面會不會好一點第一個我不太確定我們這邊所謂的公開的辯論是不是就如我們法律人所想的直指那個罪責辯論跟量刑辯論的程序"},{"start":3698.746,"end":3713.997,"text":"第二件事情即便我們在立法說明或條文把它特定成是公開辯論或者是裁判宣示的程序不要忘了事實審的法律辯論跟法律審的法律辯論有一個非常大的不同當你要站上去做辯論的時候法官的宣示是請你就事實及法律做辯論"},{"start":3714.838,"end":3732.897,"text":"只要牽涉到事實他就得要談到支持的證據他就得指出誰是這個案件裡面定罪或者是無罪的重要的關鍵性的證人他講了什麼他就得把證人的前因後果他的動機他的那些隱私家醜他不願意讓人家獵奇窺私的地方他所不堪之處在那個辯論裡面具體名義的指出來"},{"start":3733.958,"end":3754.845,"text":"讓社會大眾一起共享一起窺見一起評論一起作為茶餘飯後的談資這件事情就可能對真實發現造成某種程度的影響而侵害這些隱私的時候我們非得要這樣做不可才能夠達到法庭公開透明達到公開審判的這樣子的目的嗎這顯然不是一個最小侵害的手段"},{"start":3755.345,"end":3777.478,"text":"旁聽就已經能夠做到公開想要達成的一切目的各位看現在北檢的虐童殺人案那個案子裡面引起了社會非常多的關心也因此社會做了很多的報導很多的民眾湧入開啟了延伸法庭等等等等等等這樣的公開透明把每個脈絡都拿出來解釋其實我們對這個訴訟了解的足夠多了我不需要特別去看到那個孩子的脹氣才知道他受了多少痛苦"},{"start":3778.297,"end":3791.789,"text":"所以基本上來講我們已經有可以達成這個公開所要達成目標的手段我們不需要採取一個更殘忍的侵害性更大的它是不符合憲法上比例原則的審判我們在庭的所有程序參與者都應該有"},{"start":3793.59,"end":3822.669,"text":"拒絕被獵奇窺私這樣子的權利另外一件事情不要忘了這是公開播送所以你的所有偵查knowhow都會被公開都會被強制對公眾公開有一個警察在法庭上談他怎麼樣突破層層的封鎖然後終於查到這個詐騙集團的時候他就在教育大家說下一次你要怎麼樣躲避我的查緝同時他可能引起犯罪模仿的效應這些都是我們也許延遲播送可以稍微但是你延遲播送把他法庭咖掉了一塊之後看到不完整的審判對於法庭的公開證明"},{"start":3823.67,"end":3840.809,"text":"法庭的公正又能夠增加多少的效益另外一件事情就是說它很容易引起法庭上面的偏見失控也就是我們一直在談的一直在避免的輿論審判這件事情特別是我們現在有素人審判了我們有國民法官審判了大家去看國民法官法的第16條以及它的施行細則"},{"start":3841.83,"end":3866.193,"text":"國民法官很容易受到輿論的影響所以法庭上面的偏見是整個國民法官訴訟的核心之一但你現在把它公開播送不管你是直言播送還是直播結論就是說你會發起一個網路投票你會在網路上面形成某種輿論而且就像剛剛仙靜講的這個輿論甚至是可以被操控的它會形成不必要的外在壓力所有的裁判都應該出自於法律"},{"start":3867.595,"end":3889.034,"text":"證據以及邏輯而且只能夠出自於法律證據以及邏輯當你在外部的這個壓力形成了一個壓力去干擾這個裁判的結果的時候我們所相信的一切包含對抗制以及我們所有正當法律程序的設計都會落空特別是在素人審判的情況底下第二件事情影音公開之後可能會遭到濫用為什麼因為它會成為全國最大的秀場"},{"start":3889.855,"end":3919.022,"text":"以及免費的廣告原地如果我今天的業務狀況不好的話我會希望我在這裡好好表演一下那對照既然已經這樣做的話那我也希望說我應該做出相應的回應那法官可能會要建立自己的歷史定位它會造成太多的程序上面的浪費另外一件事情是各位可以想像嗎如果我今天有一個理念想要傳播那也許犯一個案子在法庭上面公開直播就是我最好的方式也就是說它有機會變成是殺人者的步道大會"},{"start":3920.339,"end":3940.334,"text":"我只要殺掉一群人做一個隨機殺人本來不可能聽我講的各位都得要乖乖坐在電視機的前面聽我講我已經達到最好的宣傳效果那最後我很快再講一點就好我們現在採取的是一個草案裡面採取的是一個審判長個案裁決模式這是不是就能夠解決我剛剛所講的所有問題呢反正審判認為不適當他就不要採取嘛"},{"start":3940.834,"end":3968.933,"text":"且別說我們現在從90條的第3項第4項第5項其實我不太能夠看得出立法理由裡面說明的原則跟例外關係因為我其實是把公開放在前面把不得公開放在後面另外一件事情是當你這樣做的時候它鎖定的這個案件類型是重大矚目案件各位所有的重大矚目案件才有特別被獵奇窺私的可能性才有剛剛我們講的一些弊端更可能會發生也就是說在大多數的情況底下"},{"start":3970.814,"end":3991.626,"text":"我不予直播或公開播送那等於是在審判之初在審判的一開始你就莫名其妙的不管你是採取了事前禁止或者是個案決定的方式到最後結論都是一樣我不會公開那你就在審判之初就埋下了一個種子告訴大家說這有一個陰謀論這是一個法庭黑箱所以我們大家不要相信這個判決"},{"start":3992.947,"end":4017.566,"text":"所以這個對我們的整個審判公正不但沒有幫助而且有傷害那另外就是說我們現行的草案看不到濫用這種公開播送資料的處罰規定你沒有任何的配套所以我可以剪輯我可以細膩改作我可以做各自各樣不同的利用我可以讓它歷史永流傳然後就是說各位如果有興趣可以參考的話可以參考一下美國刑事程序規則第53條它是明文的禁止這樣的作為我的報告到這裡"},{"start":4023.531,"end":4037.996,"text":"好 謝謝蔡組長如果可以的話今天發言的學者專家請提供書面這個其實讓大家可以更仔細的去研讀接下來我們有請東吳大學法律系黃教授"},{"start":4039.537,"end":4055.386,"text":"好 那謝謝主席以及各位學業專家然後跟主席報告因為等一下就是我結束之後可能要去那個桃園要去口試學生所以可能會中間提前離席跟主席報告一下那要跟大家抱歉"},{"start":4062.83,"end":4080.305,"text":"抱歉好那首先呢我先講結論就是我的結論認為說不應該要擴大進行法律審的這個法庭的公開播送那我認為說呢現行的這一個旁聽的措施已經符合了公開審理的要求那不應該擴大這個事實審的法庭公開播送那"},{"start":4081.305,"end":4096.69,"text":"結論的第二個呢是我認為說我們可以適當的去開放被害人以及家屬遠距旁聽但我說的遠距旁聽指的是在法院的實體的空間例如說可能另外一個小房間或者是另外一個延伸法庭去做遠距旁聽那這個是我兩個主要的結論"},{"start":4098.371,"end":4127.23,"text":"那接下來呢我首先我要跟大家說的是我要講的是這四個部分那第一個部分我會說的是公開審理及公開播送的這個定性那我會去分析這兩個定性到底差別在哪裡那第二個我會跟大家分析的是呢法庭公開播送對於司法運作所產生的避害那前面幾位先進棋儀都已經有很深入的去做檢討那第三個部分我會講的是日本法的檢討以及第四個部分也就是我結論二的部分保障犯罪被害人的適度開放"},{"start":4128.611,"end":4151.053,"text":"首先對於公開審理原則的意義以及目的來說首先什麼叫做公開審理原則法院審理刑事案件的時候以及宣誓判決除非有特別情況的話原則上本來就應該允許跟刑事程序沒關的不特定多數人或者是在法院的容納適當空間之內在場旁聽去目睹審判的進行與宣判"},{"start":4152.614,"end":4168.414,"text":"那這樣子的公開審理原則呢在我們的法院組織法的第86條以及呢日本的比較法的日本的憲法的37條以及82條的第一項都有去做明文那日本法我有在那個書面資料上面有去做反映所以請各位先進去做參照"},{"start":4169.014,"end":4190.534,"text":"那接下來呢公開審理它的目的是什麼也就是它為了避免國家的權利在密室的審理當中呢被恣意的運用所以呢我們要藉由審理公開去確保國民可以在自由旁丁的情況之下去監督審理它到底是否公平或者是在公正之下去做進行所以呢在這一個公開審理它的目的我們可以把它"},{"start":4190.954,"end":4206.853,"text":"整理成以下的三點不論是我國或者是日本那首先第一點也就是最原則最上位的就是程序的妥適進行那以及被告的權利保護那第二點是促進國民對於裁判的理解以及信賴那第三點是對於犯罪具有一般預防的這個效果"},{"start":4207.453,"end":4222.35,"text":"那現行的這一個法庭的公開審理的措施例如說像是我國就是有法庭的旁聽規則或者是說呢有法庭的這一個第七條的第二款去禁止在法庭旁聽的時候去做攝錄影等等的這樣子的法條規範"},{"start":4223.351,"end":4242.096,"text":"但是在這一個禁止錄音錄影以及向法庭去做攝影這樣的規範禁止底下我們仍然允許旁聽者在旁抄寫筆記以及去做法庭的這個繪製的速寫那甚至像這一次呢前面幾位先進有說到這個凱凱安的審理其實也有這樣的法庭速寫這樣子的這個媒體的速寫"},{"start":4244.677,"end":4260.752,"text":"那在日本的這個公開審理的這個措施呢我們來看一下對於他的法庭旁聽規則他也一樣的是說為了維護秩序他們會發這個法庭的旁聽券那在法院或者是審判長可以考量事件的性質以及內容去裁量決定到底要不要設錄影"},{"start":4261.593,"end":4286.59,"text":"但是他的攝錄影非常的限制也就是只有被告不在庭的情況之下那攝影機也只能從審判長所指定的位置之內去做攝影也不能特寫除了法官以外的特定的人所以這個情況原則上我所想像的就是在開庭之前然後他去拍法庭的被告以外的這一些人或者是法官這樣子所以原則上在審理的過程當中他是禁止去做攝錄影的"},{"start":4287.771,"end":4308.158,"text":"那除了這個之外呢在日本法上面他也是可以去做抄寫筆記那抄寫筆記的話一樣的在他們的這一個大法庭在他們大法庭的裁定判決裡面是有去做說明的那首先我要請大家要注意一下的是他們在這一個我裡面的紅字的部分也就是說你在做筆記的時候原則上你也是不能去干預審判的確保"},{"start":4309.778,"end":4339.076,"text":"干預審判的這一個進行所以他們審判的進行的實現呢是優於這一個法庭的旁聽活動這樣子的這一個考量那接下來在我們的措施底下呢不論是我國或者是日本那除非啦有妨礙法庭的秩序而經禁止之外否則會允許旁聽以及抄寫筆記那日本非常的限制的情況之下他會去限制錄音錄影這樣子的活動那我國是採取全面禁止但是日本在非常非常限縮的情況之下才會去做開放"},{"start":4339.776,"end":4369.276,"text":"那在這一個現行的這個公開審理的措施呢我們怎樣可以達到避免密室裁判呢其實就既有的這個我們公開的審理措施就已經可以達成了例如說像是開庭的全程錄音錄影那錄音錄影當然不會對外公佈那判決書原則上會直接的公開上網以及呢透過民眾可以直接的去進行旁聽這樣的直接公開的方式允許民眾旁聽那就判決書原則公開甚至日本呢他的判決書還不是全部公開"},{"start":4369.876,"end":4391.875,"text":"他是一不公開那如果你要看的話你要去法院實際跑去那個法院去做申請那公開播送呢對於司法運作所產生的弊害那對於這個弊害呢剛才各位幾位先進其實都已經有講過了也就是侵害隱私權以及人格權的風險那導致證言萎縮的這樣的效應也就是說我證人我不敢在法庭上面去知所不言的去做"},{"start":4393.817,"end":4415.798,"text":"講話那對於這一個鎮嚴的萎縮效應呢對於這一個醫學專業的台灣法醫學會等等的這些學會也都有發表聲明去做說明那另外呢像是剛才蔡主任說的這個公開播送有影響國民法官新政的這個危險那也是非常的這一個影響的非常的巨大所以我認為說呢就結論來說公開播送的危險有這一些就是"},{"start":4416.338,"end":4439.146,"text":"這言為說證人不願意作證國民法官的心證有遭到影響的可能而且呢參與訴訟的相關人也有人身安全遭受到危害的疑慮那甚至呢也會產生相機視角的偏誤也就是說對於這個相機他所拍攝的角度不同我們所解讀的人他的心理狀態可能會認為說他是出於任意的或者是可能認為說他是出於不任意這樣的狀況會隨著"},{"start":4441.026,"end":4466.719,"text":"這個拍攝的角度不同而產生了這個心理學上的誤解所以我認為說基於這些危險呢那我認為說就這一個公開的部分的話在這一個沒有實證研究的前提之下我們不宜而且也不應呢去做對於事實審法院去進行公開播送那對於這一個公開播送呢在這一個我們公聽會前幾天陳思凡法官他有去投書那投書呢在這一個"},{"start":4468.18,"end":4485.891,"text":"投說的標題叫做法庭直播禁負惡毒強推的根本錯誤裡面他其實有對於草案的去做出評試那對於草案去做評試例如說像草案當中他所規定的要件以及審查的基準非常的寬泛那例如說像是重大的公益是什麼那什麼叫社會矚目也缺乏了這一個明確的定義"},{"start":4486.511,"end":4515.558,"text":"那除此之外呢還有在所有的案件類型沒有區分不同案件類型去做不同密度的規範甚至是它也適用到了立法理由第四點也適用到了少年及家事法院那對於家事跟少年案件的審理來說原則上是不公開審理的那如果公開播送的話呢可能會產生當事人的隱私去做出去做出侵害這樣子所以就我來說我認為說不應該開放事實審去公開播送那除了這個之外我們的民宿裡面也有去說明說"},{"start":4516.198,"end":4535.808,"text":"原則上法庭審理證人的說明是優先於旁聽的措施所以我認為說在這一個公開播送之下呢是正確認定事實的法庭任務會優先於旁聽者的參與那這個是我所認為的結論那在日本法上面呢他們有沒有允許公開法庭播送其實他們在2027年的時候有召開檢討處議"},{"start":4539.029,"end":4561.618,"text":"這樣的委員會去做出討論但是他們最終討論的結論也是說要從整體的司法制度去做通盤的檢討跟規劃所以結論上他們也沒有通過法庭的直播那日本法也在討論說法庭直播也會有以下的避害例如說可能難以獲得證人跟鑑定人的協助也有可能會造成被害人二次傷害等等這樣的避害所以結論上來說他們認為說不應該"},{"start":4564.279,"end":4570.864,"text":"去做出線上直播這樣子的規範那甚至呢還有可能會對於裁判員啊或者是證人或鑑定人的容貌可能會被別人指導會產生了接觸不當的接觸不當的騷擾或不當的恐嚇這樣子的行為發生所以連日本法在這個法庭直播他們都採取非常謹慎保守的態度了所以我認為說在我國呢也不應該去開放線上的旁聽那你要旁聽你就直接去現場旁聽或者是透過延伸法庭"},{"start":4591.52,"end":4617.127,"text":"那另外一個補充是我認為說對於這一個被害人應該要適度開放要開放哪幾種類型的被害人因為他是犯罪被害人以及家屬那我認為說例如說像是第一種類型就是被害人人數眾多那法庭容納不下或是第二種像性侵害會有高度具備隱私這樣的需求的被犯罪被害人的家屬或者是第三種類型就是我住很遠然後很難實際上到法庭去進行旁聽的被害人家屬這三種類型"},{"start":4618.687,"end":4646.91,"text":"那要怎麼去做旁聽呢在場所上面我認為說最少最少應該要在同一個法庭的其他的實體空間或者是其他的法院的特定的空間但是在這個空間前提底下也要去確保訴訟參與者的隱私權那如果是非實體空間的線上場所的話我認為說也不應該去開放去做參與所以就結論上來說我認為說應該不應該去開放事實審的這個法院去進行旁聽那以上是我的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":4649.47,"end":4654.495,"text":"主席還有各位專家先進 大家好今天非常感謝我們這個莊育雄召委"},{"start":4672.523,"end":4690.636,"text":"那麼召開這個法院組織法有關司法公開透明修正立法的探討公聽會那今天的議題主要是涉及到兩個部分一個是與這個評議部的保存年限尤其是涉及到死刑的評議部的保存年限這個有本席提案"},{"start":4691.116,"end":4717.54,"text":"要未來要永久保存這樣一個法案那麼另外呢則是涉及到與推動法庭直播有關的議題那在這裡呢因為我主要是當時是提出法案那麼認為在先判自就在113先判自8號判決之後呢我們大法官要求未來各級法院的法官判處死刑必須要一致決"},{"start":4719.081,"end":4740.294,"text":"這樣的一個判決影響之後那麼認為說其實法庭的評議部未來應該要永久保存所以我提了相關的修法那麼我在這邊還要再次重申我基本上是反對憲判自8號裡面所判決的內容因為本席認為大法官"},{"start":4740.894,"end":4744.196,"text":"已經逾越了他的職權的界限那麼對於死刑的刑度構成不當的限縮同時也插手到了立法權那麼本席認為這是一項違背民意逾越權利分立原則的一個實質廢死的判決"},{"start":4756.923,"end":4760.945,"text":"那當然在這個判決當中大法官他明確要求剋除死刑應經各級法院和議庭法官一致決那麼也就是說在三審當中的每一個法官這個未來他在除非是一致決否則的話是不得判處死刑那麼這個門檻當然設得非常高那麼事實上我們也看到了現在這個"},{"start":4778.613,"end":4784.575,"text":"判決所造成的這個他的這個影響他的後遺症那目前也有一些也有這個個案因為沒有辦法證明那麼過去的法院判決是否是一致決所以呢竟然逃過死刑而提起非常上訴全身而退那麼本席認為說這樣子的一個判決他的確帶來了很多"},{"start":4805.64,"end":4823.089,"text":"負面的影響那麼現在依據法院類檔案保存年限的基準表法院對於評議部的保存是只有10年而這樣的制度性的漏洞無疑是與憲法法庭的本意背道而馳那麼當然就是"},{"start":4824.563,"end":4844.811,"text":"在正好這個宪判自8號判決之後那麼對於評議部的保存那麼是有必要要去做調整那麼我們知道在我提出這個法案是在今年的3月21就已經完成聯署並且送案了"},{"start":4845.171,"end":4852.135,"text":"那麼要提出修改法院組織法的106條的第三項那麼就是將凡經判處死刑的案件其評議部應列為永久保存那在本席提出這個法案之後呢那麼我們也看到這個國發會的檔案管理局那麼他們在114年也是在今年的4月16號就新增加了項目那麼將刑事法院判決死刑的評議部是改為永久保存"},{"start":4874.969,"end":4895.394,"text":"那麼暫時解決這個問題那麼我當然也很肯定就是國發會的檔案管理局那麼他們很快的重新在作業上面就先將這個法院評議部就是判決死刑的法院評議部從十年那麼延長到改為永久保存但是本席還是認為說若有"},{"start":4898.179,"end":4907.927,"text":"從這法律明確性的角度來講那麼未來能夠明定在法院組織法的106條第三項那麼我覺得會更為妥當所以"},{"start":4909.042,"end":4928.391,"text":"在這裡那麼雖然說我們目前從行政作業上面看起來已經解決這個問題但是本席還是認為說如果能夠這個未來能夠完成相關的修法的話其實是更符合法律明確性的原則好那麼除此之外在今天另外一個議題就是關於法庭直播的修法"},{"start":4929.673,"end":4944.669,"text":"那我们知道其实法庭直播是2017年司改国事会议的决议那么推动法庭直播其实是有助于我国的司法透明度的提升那么同时呢也能够增进人民对于司法的信赖"},{"start":4945.979,"end":4948,"text":"當然本席今天在這裡最主要還是要聆聽各個專家學者不同的意見因為我們知道其實法庭直播它的確可能會有一些影響譬如說可能會影響到隱私未來會造成"},{"start":4963.15,"end":4975.544,"text":"這個人民公審、法庭受場話等等這些問題喔那麼所以呢在這個部分來說的話那麼本席基本上主要還是希望能夠聆聽各位專家學者的意見那麼民眾黨的黨版現在是有"},{"start":4978.407,"end":5004.985,"text":"針對法庭公開直播的這個部分呢它是限縮於涉及到重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件也不是全部的審判都是要公開播送那麼所以未來我們在推動相關的修法要怎麼樣限縮這個範圍還有在程序上面如何做得更完整那麼這個是我今天在這裡那麼這個也很感謝專家學者們提供各方的寶貴的意見那麼我們都會作為我們未來修法的參考以上謝謝"},{"start":5009.143,"end":5024.557,"text":"謝謝洪小玲委員來我相信今天很多學者專家大家很專業的發言立法院各委員都會受益良多接下來我們請現代婦女教育基金會司法社工處的黃欣怡黃處長"},{"start":5035.882,"end":5054.77,"text":"總召各位委員 專家學者與會先進大家早安 大家好我是現代婦女基金會司法事公處的處長黃欣儀現代婦女基金會我們長期投注關注的議題是家庭暴力 性別暴力 利益家庭以及未成年子女的議題並提供第一線專業的服務"},{"start":5056.531,"end":5070.416,"text":"那基本上我們很認同上述專家學者對於法庭直播的擔心與意見因為我想核心就是直播的制度如果設計不當的話其實司法程序可能從一個揭示真相的一個場域淪為輿論操作的一個秀場"},{"start":5072.717,"end":5087.123,"text":"那接下來本會的發言會特別針對的是我們關注的議題包括了家暴家事以及涉及脆弱當事人的審理程序那我們認為法庭直播的程序將會對弱勢以及兒少造成不可逆的風險"},{"start":5089.621,"end":5108.04,"text":"那以下我們提出三點觀察與建議的部分第一點是家暴與家事的案件直播恐干擾真實的陳述那這是基於就是我們看到法院組織法第九十條修法說明裡面的第四點提及到家事法庭准用直播的一個擔憂"},{"start":5109.821,"end":5134.687,"text":"家暴案件的保護令因為家暴法有明定不公開審理所以我們沒有在此討論的範圍但是我們要說的是家事案件裡面仍然可能涉及家暴的議題例如說離婚訴請的理由裡面就有不堪同居的虐待那實務上也如前面先進所說的其實我們在實務上非常常陪同家暴的被害人還有未成年子女進入法庭即使沒有盡頭其實他們已經非常的擔憂非常的緊張了"},{"start":5136.787,"end":5165.269,"text":"那如果再加上鏡頭的話我想他們可能根本沒有辦法開口說話那法庭應該是查明真相的地方不應該是讓人變成沉默害怕甚至必須要可能因為面對鏡頭而說謊保護自己的場域那我們也想要提醒如果家事案件准用可能的狀況就是如果家事法庭准用那就依據家事事件法第九條若當事人合意且無妨礙公共秩序或善良風俗法院應准許旁聽"},{"start":5166.75,"end":5196.15,"text":"那我們擔心的是其實組織法通過之後上訴的狀況可能就會納入直播的範圍裡面那舉例像離婚的案件當事人雖然是夫妻可是如果夫妻合意依據家事事件法法院法官准許旁聽那麼這樣子就可以准許直播開放嗎但是法庭內我們要說的是其實涉及的不是只有雙方當事人還有包括了子女、祖父母家庭中的其他成員甚至第三人"},{"start":5197.03,"end":5223.565,"text":"這些人雖然不是當事人卻可能因為當事人的合意直播而無端的曝光違反他們的隱私保護原則也使得第三人的權益完全的失守那我們要強調的是這一類案件的庭審內容常涉及到家庭裡面非常隱私脆弱的家庭經歷例如受虐的經過親密暴力孩子的情緒與表現還有家庭的精神醫療記錄或者家庭成員之間衝突對話的細節"},{"start":5226.506,"end":5255.132,"text":"這些資訊不是只是法庭的一個陳述內容更是涉及當事人跟關係人的尊嚴跟心理界限那或許有一些案件真的是社會矚目的案件像是名人案件但是我們質疑的是這些隱私的揭露與公益之間的關聯性到底是什麼難道只是因為社會矚目然後當事人同意公開審理那就能夠正當化一個直播放送然後讓這些家庭中其他人的痛苦被揭露嗎"},{"start":5256.823,"end":5275.857,"text":"那第二點我們要強調的是直播被資訊濫用的風險極高難以防治那我想也如同前面的先進都有提到就是我們要再一次強調的是家事事件法裡面提供的就是說法院可以公開可以開放旁聽旁聽真的不是只是聽而已不是播"},{"start":5276.698,"end":5304.155,"text":"那旁聽是一個法庭可控制的現場行為可是直播是一個擴散可以回放沒有辦法回收的數位記錄兩者風險差異真的非常的大那就算採用一個延遲播送資訊遮蔽的技術我們仍然擔心就是這些畫面可能被截錄被變造甚至造AI的重製那未來有新人士可能也會利用這些素材去剪輯片段模仿語音惡意重製等"},{"start":5304.915,"end":5323.883,"text":"那這些都是對於當事人或家庭中的關係人造成無法追溯的永久性傷害特別我們要提到的是這裡面案件的兒童跟少年如果他們的家庭糾紛父母的訴訟衝突被留出留下數位痕跡可能對他的成長他的人際關係造成一個長久的創傷"},{"start":5325.243,"end":5335.218,"text":"而且我們也都知道其實現在這些影片一旦上網幾乎就是沒有辦法下架也沒有辦法阻止流傳那現行的制度也缺乏一個有效的申訴跟刪除的機制"},{"start":5336.383,"end":5362.757,"text":"那第三點我們要特別提醒的是從案件名稱類型其實難以評估直播的一個風險我們不能夠僅依據案件類型來決定可不可以直播特別是有一類是案件名稱跟實質風險不對等的例如說家庭暴力跟性侵案件雖然法律有規定不能夠公開審理但是其實這些案件其實它會延伸相關的其他民刑事案件比如說像是民事賠償、刑事傷害、毀損、誣告等等的"},{"start":5365.678,"end":5380.293,"text":"那以2022年的新北市寄信婦人殺父案件為由其實這是一個國民法官審理的刑事案件嘛那表面上是一個重大的刑事案件但實際上它是一個家暴倖存者長期受虐之後一個自我防衛的行為"},{"start":5381.474,"end":5410.361,"text":"那這些案件如果被納入說重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件直播範圍裡面會導致當事人還有他的家人再次面臨公審被標籤的風險那法庭上勢必也揭露他的受虐逆成心理創傷以及夫妻與孩子之間的情感糾葛這是 這不是公共娛樂的素材這是深層的家庭創傷因此我們主張司法應該是一個庇護弱勢的場域而不是將它曝光在傷害之中的工具"},{"start":5411.121,"end":5439.298,"text":"所以現在婦女基金會我們支持一個資訊應該公開但是認為法庭的公開播送它帶來的一個影響是非常廣泛跟深遠的因此建議這樣的制度施行之前還是應該進行更充分的討論與實證研究並納入婦女兒少團體的相關意見 謝謝好 謝謝黃處長接下來我們有請台灣高等法院文嘉倩法官發言"},{"start":5447.464,"end":5473.291,"text":"主席各位委員各位學者專家各位先進各位長官大家好我是台灣高等法院法官文嘉倩那今天非常感謝各位委員對於司法透明度以及公開播送這個議題的重視在此先對各位委員致意那我呢因為是事實審法官所以我會從一個事實審法官的觀點來看法庭質不過這個議題在事實審會發生什麼樣一個嚴重的問題尤其是在刑事案件裡面它的問題會更為嚴重"},{"start":5475.111,"end":5503.659,"text":"那麼我個人的立場其實是反對法庭直播尤其是事實審法庭直播的那當然主張者可能會認為說公開審理就等於法庭播送把這兩個概念連結在一起認為公開審理就要法庭直播但是公開審理它的意義呢其實它本來是在避免秘密審判之下會對被告造成一個不公平的審理那所以要公開法庭讓民眾可以進來旁聽來監督法院那它有公開方式有三種可以開放實體法庭延伸法庭以及法庭直播"},{"start":5504.179,"end":5524.728,"text":"所以我們可以看得出來法庭直播它只是公開審理方式的一種它並不是唯一所以公開審理並不是以法庭直播為必要的那麼另外從比較法上的觀察那當然美國它的聯邦原則上它的開放法庭直播是很少的那英國它的法庭直播也具有相當程度的局限性德國日本它原則上也是不開放直播所以我們可以看得出來"},{"start":5525.328,"end":5541.661,"text":"即使在世界各國它同樣是採行公開審理制度的國家它也不必然會採行法庭直播所以我們可以看得出來法庭直播跟公開審理它其實就是兩個不同的概念如果我們把公開審理無限上綱到法庭直播的時候可能會首先犯了一個邏輯上的一個謬誤那另外呢"},{"start":5543.662,"end":5565.838,"text":"所以我們在談法庭直播的時候其實主要是看它的利跟弊要如何去權衡利弊得失的問題那整體而言把它歸納成它有三大目的四大影響跟五大弊端整體來說它的弊是遠遠大於利的尤其是在事實上的部分當然我們肯定法庭直播它可以達到這三大目的就是可以提升司法透明度增進公眾對司法的監督以及滿足人民知的權利這些都是無庸置疑的"},{"start":5566.238,"end":5591.367,"text":"但是現在這些利益法庭直播可以達到的利益是只有法庭直播才可以達到嗎還是現在的其他制度也已經可以達到那我們可以看到我們現行的制度裡面有法庭公開判決書公開以及法庭錄音這三大制度就可以讓人民進入法院或者是延伸法庭來旁聽開庭來監督法院的審判程序的進行判決書公開也可以讓人民上網查閱判決可以看到法官新政形成的一個理由"},{"start":5591.887,"end":5612.019,"text":"當事人也可以就判決提起上訴來救濟另外法庭會全程錄音所以當事人也可以申請交付法庭錄音透過這三大機制目前就已經足以確保人民知的權利以及公眾對司法的監督以及提升司法的透明度也就是法庭直播所要想要達到的目的了所以我們就會開始懷疑說那法庭直播它的正當性何在呢"},{"start":5615.799,"end":5631.819,"text":"那另外我們來看法庭質問它到底有哪一些負面影響我把它分成四個層次它大概對法律專業人士訴訟關係人對被告對國民法官都會有一些負面影響那對法律專業人士的負面影響呢我們就先從美國前代法官Ethany Kennedy她所說的話來看"},{"start":5632.72,"end":5640.764,"text":"他說如果法庭活動可以公開播送律師檢察官可能會從原先以法官陪審團為訴求對象改為以攝影機媒體社會大眾為訴求對象法律專業人士會傾向於發表受媒體關注的名言而非專注於實質的法庭辯論"},{"start":5648.527,"end":5671.918,"text":"所以我們可以看得出來如果開放公開播送的時候呢簡便他可能重點會放在表演而不是審判他會把訴訟的焦點會放在舞台效果而不是證據本身這個時候會造成整個法庭活動的一個娛樂化綜藝化人民在看法庭活動的時候像是在看一場大型的審判實境秀一樣那這樣子我們到底是可以達到發現真實的目的還是只是為了滿足公眾的娛樂的一個需求呢"},{"start":5675.014,"end":5697.608,"text":"那另外就對訴訟關係來講的部分這邊要特別強調一點就是有關於個人的這個資訊自決權的問題資訊自決權的問題其實在大法官釋字裡面多次揭示它是屬於憲法所保障的基本權利那資訊自決權它在指的是一個個人他對於他的個資跟隱私要不要揭露在何種範圍內揭露要向何人揭露要在何時揭露以何種方式揭露他都有一個自主決定權"},{"start":5698.288,"end":5713.035,"text":"但是一旦開放法庭直播之後呢因為法庭的訴訟活動它是一個現在進行式是一個浮動的狀態那它訴訟過程當中會發生什麼樣的狀況會有什麼樣的言論出現會有什麼樣的行為這都是沒有辦法預測跟控制的所以一旦開放直播的時候這些訴訟關係人"},{"start":5714.455,"end":5729.294,"text":"被告、證人、鑑定人跟訴訟的關係他們會淪為一個觀看的課題他們的聲音影像被迫的公開播送到全國的時候這時候會發生一個問題雖然被告跟證人他們有告庭的義務但是他沒有被播送的義務他沒有被剝奪要被被剝奪他的資訊自決權的義務"},{"start":5732.017,"end":5746.793,"text":"那所以一旦他的個資跟隱私在訴訟當中因為浮動的狀態而被揭露的時候而公開播送到全國的時候因為網路它又具有一個無遠弗屆跟一個持續性的效果所以對這些訴訟關係人他的人格權跟人性尊嚴的損害是永久而且難以回復的"},{"start":5747.674,"end":5763.201,"text":"那麼另外在就證人來講當然我們也可以想像到如果今天一個證人他所做的證詞對被告不利的時候他會不會擔心在外的這個上會到來的共犯可能會對他進行報復或者是他也可能會擔心在輿論公審的情況之下他的證詞不符合輿論的期待的時候他可能會受到輿論的批判"},{"start":5763.761,"end":5790.429,"text":"這些都會導致證人他可能會不敢作證或者是說他會扭曲他的證詞會影響到他證詞的真實性那麼另外就鑑定人來說因為現在刑事中鑑定心智通過之後其實鑑定人要到法庭接受交互結論已經讓很多醫生不願意來擔任鑑定人了那麼一旦開放法庭直播之後鑑定人他的聲音影像他的陳述內容會公開播送到全國我們可以想像會有更多的專業人士不願意來擔任鑑定人那我們先想想哪一天對於額內案件也許沒有醫生願意來當鑑定人"},{"start":5791.989,"end":5812.9,"text":"對於殺人案件也許沒有法律出來當鑑定人這個時候我們要怎麼去發現真實呢那另外對被告來說開放法庭直播之後不可避免就會引起輿論審判跟全民公審的效應但是這樣子真的是對被告來說是一個公平審判可以形成更正確的行政嗎那我們要看的是人民在看公開播送的時候他是怎麼看的有可能是同時開了好幾個網頁隨時轉來轉去"},{"start":5815.521,"end":5833.809,"text":"或者是說他在看這個過程當中也許受到這件事情的干擾那件事情的干擾他可能沒有辦法專注在某一段落的一個法庭的活動跟他在現場觀看旁聽是不一樣的那所以這樣所產生的新政他會是一個片斷而零散的新政會淪於一種斷章取義式的印象審判那麼另外呢人民也可能會受到"},{"start":5834.509,"end":5851.585,"text":"當事人 或者是檢辯 或者是證人 被告他們的外形 穿著 談吐 儀態的影響而產生這樣子的新證這樣子的新證是直擊一種偏見而易斷的新證在國民法官的時候我們可以發現這個問題但是國民法官可以避免這個問題的原因是因為法官他可以透過"},{"start":5852.425,"end":5870.686,"text":"審前說明後 透過訴訟指揮 透過評議的說明他去避免到國民法官產生偏見預斷但是在人民在看到法庭直播的時候他在他自己家看到法庭直播的時候這個時候法官沒有辦法對他採取任何的解釋跟說明這時候我們要怎麼樣去避免這種偏見預斷會對被告產生一個不公平的一個結果呢那另外對那個"},{"start":5874.045,"end":5901.263,"text":"國民法官來說開放法庭直播之後國民法官身份可能不可避免的會遭到洩露一旦洩露的話他可能會遭到左鄰右舍的關切他也可能會被媒體追逐他也可能會被人民肉搜會導致他生活的平衡、寧靜受到嚴重的影響那另外他的新政也可能會受到媒體被動的受到媒體或者是輿論審判而有所不當的影響也會影響到整個訴訟結果的正確性另外更重要的一個問題是國民法官他可能因為輿論審判的影響導致他的壓力過大而想要辭任"},{"start":5903.624,"end":5925.072,"text":"一旦辭任的國民法官人數多於被衛國民法官的人數的時候這個時候被衛國民法官已經不夠用了這個時候法庭活動被迫要終止必須要重新開啟一個選任程序這也都會非常的嚴重影響到國民法官制度的一個運作那麼另外我們來看就是說剛才所提到這些問題是不是其實透過配套措施就可以解決呢我們現行制度有沒有配套措施答案是沒有"},{"start":5925.752,"end":5940.752,"text":"我們目前技術上其實沒有辦法避免民眾去翻拍剪輯加工法庭直播畫面的情形我們不像英美他們有藐視法庭罪可以去避免可以去處罰這樣的行為那另外如果有媒體他使用法庭直播畫面作為新聞或談話性節目素材的時候要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":5941.653,"end":5959.137,"text":"我們目前雖然有媒體自律規範但是長久以來都沒辦法落實更不要說如果今天有很多的自媒體它根本也不受到媒體自律規範的限制的時候這個時候要怎麼辦呢那另外如果有人把法庭直播畫面上傳到網路作為訴訟外不當使用的時候怎麼辦我們目前沒有網路平台下架的一個設計性影像有"},{"start":5959.417,"end":5986.268,"text":"但是法庭直播作為訴訟還不當使用是沒有的所以這個部分我們也沒辦法去處理那另外如果有人騷擾證人或國民法官怎麼辦呢我們目前沒有像美國一樣有這類型的妨害司法公證罪可以去處罰這類型的行為我們的妨害司法公證罪是不包括處罰騷擾證人或國民法官所以這個配套措施也是目前看起來在付之缺乳另外就是執行層面的配套措施因為依照之前司法院估計如果說是全國的各法院"},{"start":5987.028,"end":6000.083,"text":"各法院的各個法庭都要開放法庭直播的話可能需要上百億的經費但是其實我們把它限縮每個法院只有一個法庭來做法庭直播的話也需要上億的經費這樣子上億的經費到底要從何而來是由納稅人來滿單嗎還是像美國一樣"},{"start":6002.005,"end":6026.545,"text":"是由媒體來承擔這個費用那再來就是要額外把法庭直播之後需要額外支出的這些人力我們因為目前是要總原額法的限制我們人力增加是非常的緊繃的這些人力要從何而來也是一個問題接下來平寬的問題目前司法院平寬給全國各法院使用如果一旦全國人民要進來看法庭直播的時候這個司法院平寬不夠用的時候那都會導致法院網站當機可能法官的正常審判也沒辦法進行這些問題要怎麼解決"},{"start":6027.145,"end":6044.096,"text":"那必須要強調的是這些問題並不是要等到法案通過之後才來解決在法案通過之前其實這相關的配套資源就必須要到位否則現在法案規定的是三個月施行一旦資源沒有到位的情況下法案通過之後三個月之後也沒有辦法施行會導致土法不足以自行的情況所以總結來說呢就是"},{"start":6046.037,"end":6064.037,"text":"法庭直播他會在事實審會產生五大弊端他會侵害被告訴訟權訴訟參與者人格權以及違反國際推定原則公平審判原則也會妨害發現真實最終就會侵蝕到司法獨立所以我個人認為在目前還沒有經過通盤討論審慎演繹沒有相關配套措施到位之前不適合採取法庭直播尤其是事實審法庭直播謝謝"},{"start":6067.381,"end":6076.521,"text":"好 謝謝吳法官我想這些都足供我們立法院來做一個審議的時候重大的一個參考接下來我們請羅志強委員"},{"start":6084.454,"end":6113.593,"text":"主席還有出席的我們的專家學者跟列席的官員大家早安那司法透明化是民主制度的基礎價值那人民看見司法怎麼運作也是強化信任的關鍵所以因此我們現在社會對司法公信力的期待跟焦慮是與日俱增那根據匯流在去年做的調查只有三成的人認為司法是公正的那這當然是非常大的司法危機"},{"start":6114.594,"end":6132.497,"text":"那面對近年來司法透明化的呼聲高漲所以近期國會再度啟動對於法院組織法修正的討論包括法庭是否要開放直播其實這也是當年蔡英文總統推動司法改革在司法國事會議上的一個重要的改革方向"},{"start":6133.098,"end":6157.971,"text":"那司法院跟法務部針對法院組織法修法提出的書面意見那指出法庭直播可能衍生證人不敢作證被告遭網路公審各自外洩等問題那我覺得這些擔憂當然不是無地放矢啦但是要審慎看待但是我也要提醒就是也不能說就是把這個所謂的風險有風險就全面的保守跟退縮"},{"start":6158.939,"end":6179.338,"text":"那麼最關鍵的核心就是你還是要能夠盡量的在司法透明化的過程當中讓陽光進到司法裡面那找回人民對司法的信任感那兩份報告都強調歐洲日本美國聯邦法院多位實施法庭直播那就是說因此台灣也不可以推動"},{"start":6180.399,"end":6207.817,"text":"那事實上部分國家包括美國部分的州法院早已經有限度的採行直播或影音公開的機制它其實也有一些實務經驗可以參考那舉例來說早期美國聯邦最高法院就認為開庭時允許影像報導是侵犯了被告公平受審的權利違反正當法律程序但是後來隨著時代的變遷那聯邦最高法院也轉而認為憲法並未限制"},{"start":6210.479,"end":6235.834,"text":"州是否開放刑事審判的轉播因此許多州逐漸的開放法庭直播也就是說並不是所有的國家的司法系統都在拒絕直播那當然也如同法務部跟司法院提到法庭直播固然具有資訊公開民主監督跟法治教育這些潛在價值但如果沒有妥善設計制度卻可能引發政人不敢作證"},{"start":6236.795,"end":6265.678,"text":"被告遭到社會審判以及網路剪輯霸凌等等副作用那任何公開影像都可能被漏搜放大使當事人隱私跟名譽無法修復那這些提醒當然要審慎對待那麼尤其在法庭上有時候會涉及個人的病史或是一些其他的隱私問題如果沒有配套 足夠配套保護的話那也有可能造成某些社會弱勢者更加遠離司法救濟"},{"start":6266.559,"end":6294.593,"text":"那當然我是能夠理解司法透明也不是一個非常容易的改革啦那直播也不是萬能的解方但是也不能讓所謂的潛在風險變成改革停滯的藉口那還是回到我一開始說的就是這次討論最關鍵的核心還是要怎麼樣去強化司法體系的公正性找回人民的信任感立法院討論法院組織法修改不是為了製造對立而是希望能夠大家一起"},{"start":6295.854,"end":6319.473,"text":"集思廣益共同找到一條讓正義被看見當事人被保護那社會也可以信任司法的一個平衡方案台灣是言論自由非常成熟的社會那人民是有權來看司法怎麼運作但這個透明也不能變成全民公審的審判場所以因此我們期待司法院在制度設計上可以還是要再開放一點"},{"start":6320.618,"end":6334.574,"text":"在所謂的態度上以及方法上多走一步提出更平衡的一個司法改革方向能夠找到一個兩邊都能夠兼顧的一個中道之路以上 謝謝"},{"start":6338.289,"end":6365.956,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員確實提到確實這種高度爭議及時廣義的接下來我們請雲林科技大學法律系教授楊智傑楊教授主席好各位好我是雲林科技大學楊智傑那在2017年思改國是會議在第四組討論這個法庭直播的時候我也是受邀報告美國制度的專家"},{"start":6367.975,"end":6395.418,"text":"那麼反對的人都有提到說好像美國聯邦沒有開放德國日本沒有開放所以我們就不開放那事實上開放的國家真的很多了美國各州都是開放加拿大澳大利亞紐西蘭南非巴西那歐盟國家重視各自保護所以大家關心的隱私問題歐盟國家是不是都不開放呢待會會說明荷蘭義大利也是開放當然他們會去解決怎麼樣顧及證人"},{"start":6397.725,"end":6424.961,"text":"的隱私問題烏克蘭哈薩克中國大陸還有大部分的國際法庭事實省的部分我講的都是事實省都是開放的難道這些開放轉播的國家都影響審判公正都不重視當事人證人隱私他們當然也重視所以在開放的同時會有許多限制一般而言這些國家都不會開放家事案件兒童案件"},{"start":6426.284,"end":6445.977,"text":"涉及性案件的轉播所以剛剛很多專家擔心家事案件事實上美國各州從來沒有轉播過家事離婚案件的轉播各位也許聽過強尼逮捕案件那是誹謗案件那不是家事案件那麼他也都授予法官有裁量權"},{"start":6447.657,"end":6474.779,"text":"那我相信現在在場各位法官都這麼反對那當法官你們行使裁量權的時候你們自己去衡量這個是不是能夠轉播的嘛那我以下呢快速介紹各國美國聯邦法院現在也是慢慢開放例如說最高法院以及部分聯邦區聯邦巡迴區下的聯邦案件都允許錄音然後事後轉播出錄音但不准許影像"},{"start":6475.834,"end":6503.586,"text":"那州法院的部分目前為止45個州法院全部開放申請不是說全部轉播你來申請法官裁定允許2017年私改國事會議的時候我做專家報告的時候當時只有44個州現在多一個州45個州那麼特別講幾個州佛羅里達州為什麼要講它因為它是美國第一個全面開放"},{"start":6504.502,"end":6529.247,"text":"然後馬上就有人質疑說這個有違憲像剛剛部分先進說有違憲說違反公正審判結果達到美國最大法院美國最大法院1981年牽扯到佛羅里達州這個案他說沒有證據證明開放排名轉播會影響陪審團或者法官的公正審判"},{"start":6531.619,"end":6556.413,"text":"當然一樣有一些限制啦不是完全沒有限制那麼加州現在也是最開放包括加州所屬的第九巡迴法院是全面開放全面開放轉播的當然也都要申請法官也會裁定限制那麼美國以外的先進官方剛剛列很多但加拿大也算比較先進他也是40省都可以申請開放"},{"start":6559.686,"end":6576.233,"text":"最重要的是歐盟國家因為歐盟國家非常重視個人資料保護我們台灣其實沒那麼重視但是他也開放那他在開放之後制定的相關的行政命令裡面"},{"start":6577.776,"end":6591.737,"text":"他也要考量到對被告證人鑑定人的隱私保障所以他會整個案件開放但是如果要轉播被告證人鑑定人的影音他要遵循他的同意"},{"start":6593.137,"end":6622.109,"text":"那荷蘭是稍微限縮一點如果證人、鑑定人完全不同意那就不能但是被告的部分縱使被告不同意聲音仍可以播出那其餘的人法官、檢察官、律師的辯論都可以播出那義大利比荷蘭更多一點它也是法官同意特別重大社會案件的時候可以播出但考量到"},{"start":6624.585,"end":6648.658,"text":"被告的隱私他也問說被告同不同意被告不同意的話不能轉播影像但錄音可以播出那證人鑑定人對不起我修正這個證人鑑定人就是問他同不同意那不同意的話就是都不能播出對不起我有一個"},{"start":6649.875,"end":6678.45,"text":"比較表整理 抱歉我可能剛剛有點說錯因為義大利跟荷蘭有稍微的不同那麼我們剛剛提到說我們知道歐盟國家非常重視個人資料保護所以也許我們法律界很多留德的會覺得說可能是不會同意開放但荷蘭 義大利也受歐盟這些各自保護很強硬的各自保護的約束但他還是開放了為什麼 因為有公義性"},{"start":6679.795,"end":6698.529,"text":"今天不是只有這個個人私意的問題有公益性公益性大於個人私意的時候可以轉放那比較義大利荷蘭呢義大利是稍微開放一點他就被告的部分他如果法院決定轉播了不用得到同意就可以錄影但是證人鑑定人被害人等"},{"start":6699.289,"end":6725.199,"text":"都要得到同意不能得到同意的話不能錄影像但是可以錄音然後也可以把錄音播出那麼荷蘭剛剛講說稍微限縮一點尤其證人、鑑定人、被害人等他不同意的話就是這個錄影影像都不能播出但是其他的法庭活動參與者法官、律師、檢察官都是不用得到他同意的好那麼回到說"},{"start":6727.827,"end":6755.911,"text":"法庭活動雖然大家現在關心的是一些個人隱私的侵害但是它還是有正當的目的要去追求的包括確保筆錄公正確保審判公正讓人民滿足知的權利教育公眾各位可能認為人民知的權利不重要但實際上在美國一系列案子就認為說法庭之所以要開放就是為了滿足人民知的權利而且它並不是一個不重要的公共利益"},{"start":6757.783,"end":6786.012,"text":"讓公義跟私利權衡所以受影響的私人權利私人的權利包括私人受公正審判的權利也就是我們講的正當程序還有當事人隱私 當事人證人隱私還有審判其他參與者的也許他的一個社會觀感但是我們剛剛提到就是說佛羅里達州全面開放的時候有一個當事人就打案子打到最高法院最高法院說沒有辦法證明"},{"start":6788.12,"end":6814.612,"text":"法庭轉播就會影響陪審員的判斷就會影響法官的判斷我相信各位在場的法官都自認為不會受到媒體報導的影響都會做出獨立公正的判斷那麼證人的隱私被告證人的隱私當然都很重要但是重要我們可以做一些調和我們可以做適度的限制像荷蘭義大利的方式"},{"start":6816.565,"end":6840.391,"text":"當然也排除一些家事案件 兒童案件 性相關案件那作為調和 憲法的討論是公義跟私義的調和而不是說就全部禁止當然講了這些 並不是說民眾黨所提出的草案沒問題其實也是有一些問題那以下我也是提出一些修正建議"},{"start":6842.042,"end":6869.045,"text":"第一個這個草案所提出轉播申請的他條文寫是由被告申請或依職權但是大部分的國家都是由媒體提出申請某程度他不認為這是一個被告的權利比較多是滿足人民知的權利由媒體提出申請而媒體提出申請有多家媒體提出申請的時候法院會裁定你們去協調最後只准許一家"},{"start":6869.963,"end":6896.857,"text":"那麼這個時候就會也解決了剛剛有人擔心的財政的問題因為這個轉播的成本不是由法院來付所以這個建議改而媒體申請第二個 當然大家都很關心說家事案件 兒童案件自然人的私人糾紛性相關案件那麼雖然它原來的條文強調要"},{"start":6899.418,"end":6923.375,"text":"重大公共利益社會矚目案件照理講應該可能排除但是其實也不完全排除因為社會矚目案件也可能包括某些私人的糾紛是社會矚目案件所以當然建議說如果真的要排除這些反對者疑慮把某些涉及自然人的糾紛或性相關案件明確把它排除會比較好"},{"start":6924.943,"end":6945.458,"text":"那再來一點就是說不是說開放不播送就完全毫無限制各位如果有願意去看美國各州或這些國家所有開放他都說法官可以做適當的限制包括剛剛講說我雖然整庭開放但證人鑑定人受害人的部分我要求要做適當的限制"},{"start":6946.843,"end":6963.574,"text":"所以應該要把那個適當方式後面加幾個字適當限制而且違反限制呢應該要加一個裁罰的規定確實最後就是其實我們判決書的公開全面公開才是最侵害人民隱私的大家應該更關注這個問題謝謝大家"},{"start":6966.411,"end":6978.467,"text":"好 謝謝楊教授這個正反觀點其實都足夠大家來一起討論接下來我們請台灣大學法律系科格中科教授"},{"start":6987.45,"end":6997.45,"text":"主席還有各位在會這個會場的各位女士先生大家好我簡單大概報告一下關於這個直播議題的討論"},{"start":7001.665,"end":7022.817,"text":"首先其實前面還有一個是關於死刑評議部的這個問題因為我時間上來不及寫到上面去根據我們1130憲判第8號判決的這個看法我想死刑評議部是否應該改成比較永久保存這個我個人比較我也支持贊成這個看法因為這也是為了配合"},{"start":7023.277,"end":7050.738,"text":"大概憲法法庭做成的死刑的判決這個部分那其實我們現行的制度上面當然一般的資料檔案保存都有檔案法相關規範那這個部分我想因為比較就直接回答了那個剛剛那個問題那當然我們本次公聽會比較大的問題點應該是在關於法庭直播這個問題上面那剛剛其實集會與會的先進不管是贊成或部分的贊成或是做一些配套"},{"start":7051.837,"end":7076.51,"text":"或者是反對的意見那我大概就基本上做一些這個關於這個法庭直播的一些主張跟理由上的討論的說明首先第一個大概是說從法庭公開做一貫性的延伸要求特別是說法庭公開因為我們也不也有所謂的延伸法庭這樣一個概念是不是可以就再進一步再更公開一點也就是可以讓"},{"start":7077.951,"end":7092.265,"text":"這個不特定的人可以透過法庭公開活動的這個聲音或影像的錄製來做進一步的這個要求那待會我會大概簡單跟各位說一下其實法庭公開並不是指直播公開因為它那個意義是不一樣的"},{"start":7093.266,"end":7115.563,"text":"那另外第二件事情是關於人民對司法有知情權這一點完全我相信只要把司法作為國家權利之一他在這個人民對國家的各項權利的運作當然他有這個所謂的知情權只是我們必須要去進一步去了解到這個知情權是否要去探索個人的隱私"},{"start":7116.784,"end":7134.551,"text":"也就是說因為我們先不講憲法法庭這一種所謂的規範憲法審查這樣的一個情況通常在普通法院或行政法院裡面的這個訴訟案件的審理它一定是涉及到個案個案裡面的事實呈現透過證據資料去呈現事實"},{"start":7137.412,"end":7166.852,"text":"那這個事實跟證據資料的這個呈現基本上我們就可以去探索個案裡面的相關人的個別的資訊或隱私當然參與法庭也會有他的肖像的這個問題那簡單來講就是你的一個所謂對國家公權力的知情權限可不可以再進一步去延伸到我想要透過國家公權力特別在司法活動裡面所產生出來的相關資料我想要去探索我想要知道那個人包括"},{"start":7167.732,"end":7183.949,"text":"因為這一次提案的內容裡面也包括了逃漏稅資料所以我想要知道你賺多少錢我可能可以透過這個司法活動可以這樣延伸出去嗎這個我相信也是這個在至少從學界的角度來講可不可以延伸到這一點應該"},{"start":7185.49,"end":7201.686,"text":"值得再進一步去加以探討那最後面當然是談到所謂推廣法治教育或提升法律信賴這個問題其實也是回到前面兩個問題去做一個說明那我想我基本上大概先做一個鋪陳那這一次的民眾黨團所提出來意見裡面這些大概就是從"},{"start":7202.307,"end":7229.865,"text":"那個他的這個草案的立法理由裡面的說明所以我大致上把他稍微做了一些簡單的整理這一次的關於這個法院組織法的修法的相關的意見然後他的相關條文也是這個我這裡面也特別提到一個裁定德維抗告這個這個條文規定因為其實這個問題我待會會進一步去敘述他基本上很大程度上面來講我們可能大概整個程序的進行也可能就卡在這個地方"},{"start":7230.185,"end":7252.342,"text":"因為你只要得為抗告那整體後面的程序基本上你不可能立刻現在就進行了就像法官的迴避也是一樣有同樣的這個道理跟性質存在好那大概簡單的去整理一下草案提出的內容雖然他已經進覆二讀了但我們就看他草案裡面的內容他提到了關於法律省原則上公開"},{"start":7253.443,"end":7278.698,"text":"直播公開啦因為他的假設前提就是法律省是一個法律的解釋適用的這個過程所以可能比較偏重於是法律法規範的討論而已但例外的如果是涉及國安公共秩序善良風俗或是對參與訴訟之個人造成生命身體隱私或營業秘密這些重大損害這個部分我們就不公開那事實省的相反的原則上不公開但例外可以直播公開"},{"start":7279.699,"end":7296.06,"text":"特別是這裡面草案裡面提到了就是涉及重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件當然後面他也提到了什麼叫做重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件我大概待會也會去做簡單的說明那另外就是程序的部分剛剛提"},{"start":7296.4,"end":7311.996,"text":"提到了就是說不管是被告申請或是法院法官依職權裁定而為開放的話當然你相反的如果不開放的話也會一樣這個法院的裁定是得為抗告的這整個的程序那從學理上的角度來講我們先"},{"start":7313.537,"end":7330.687,"text":"說一下什麼叫法庭公開因為這個是第一個命題那個非常重要的問題就法庭公開到底可不可以延伸到所謂的直播公開這件事情那這個地方很抱歉我當然是借用因為我們自己的法秩序裡面可能沒有比較直接的定義法條至少沒有直接定義那我們就以德國"},{"start":7332.069,"end":7355.747,"text":"聯邦法院的這個定義這個是刑事庭的一個定義他簡單來講就是說法院在法庭空間容許範圍內他有那個義務要提供給任何人讓他可以以觀眾的身份進入到法庭來參與聽聞法庭審判活動的這個可能性我還是要強調這個可能性因為理由回到就是法院是在"},{"start":7356.407,"end":7380.159,"text":"提供法庭空間的容許範圍內也就是在那個法庭上面來講當然物理上的延伸是有可能再進一步延伸比如說我在旁邊架一個同步同步的但是他是在另外一個法庭裡面那我要講這件事情是因為其實我們在COVER的時候就有類似的這個做法因為COVER的時候大家沒有辦法到現場來因為"},{"start":7382.18,"end":7398.921,"text":"比如說交通管制或是人不太能夠出行那這個時候在那個延伸法庭裡面其實它是必須是在一個可控制的範圍內因為我們都會知道就是說當證人或當事人在陳述的時候我必須要確保他陳述這個的內容是出於他的自由的意願"},{"start":7399.702,"end":7414.218,"text":"那這個場所其實延伸法庭它還是回到那個實體可控制的範圍內這個概念裡面而不是我再講一次直播放送是它是一個法庭沒有辦法控制比如說我在路邊的電視牆"},{"start":7416,"end":7433.972,"text":"這個你根本不知道誰經過或誰聽到這個東西就更不用去講說這個如果我在現場他可以直接在這邊錄放他會在自己的社群或是在所謂的公眾媒體裡面去進一步的去做傳送這樣的一個意義這也是我們講法庭公開審理這件事情"},{"start":7435.033,"end":7464.353,"text":"他的原始最初是來自於特別是在以前的司法作為國家公權力的一部分配合國家公權力特別是行政的部門的這種公權力的行使有所謂的政治上的秘密審判那前面其實與外的先進大概有簡單的提到過說法庭公開這個的概念的來源是來自於以前的秘密審判對抗秘密審判讓每一個國家的人民都可以在司法活動裡面獲得被"},{"start":7465.954,"end":7492.411,"text":"純粹就是單純扣過整個法庭的審判活動呈現相關證據資料事實的認定以及法律解釋使用的結果來做一個最終的一個確切的判斷也正因為這樣子一個問題我們這個地方也順帶一句提到其實我們現在在法庭公開底下裡面也是容許一部分的在法庭裡面做一些錄音的這個動作特別是書記官可能為了要輔助他去做相關的這個"},{"start":7494.732,"end":7513.958,"text":"這個筆錄讓他能夠更完整那他會有做這一些的錄音的這個工作那這個部分不是把他直接拿來當作法庭直播這個是輔助法庭公開這個活動本身的一個重要的一個活動之一而已那也因為這樣子我大概先因為前面沒有特別去講到什麼叫直播公開"},{"start":7514.838,"end":7537.648,"text":"我大概當然這也不是法律定義啊這只是我們在這個地方去將它講就是法庭直播公開的意思可能可以我們可以把它理解為就是將這些法庭審理的活動透過社群因為各位都知道比如說Facebook或是Line上面都會有一個特定的我們自己的特定的群體或者是做公眾媒體的這樣子的一個公開的一個方式"},{"start":7538.228,"end":7556.075,"text":"如果假設這樣一個法庭直播公開那它可能就是可以被定義為是透過審判活動由社群或是公開裡面去做直接的公開當然你也可以進一步去理解是說我先把它涉入下來將來再來去社群或是在公眾媒體裡面去做公開"},{"start":7556.955,"end":7578.383,"text":"這個當然也是可能這被理解為是這樣那法庭直播公開這個滿足這樣的一個知情權當然這個會是一個很看起來是非常正當的理由那我們剛剛在一開始的時候也就要提到就是說我們這個公眾知情權對司法活動的探知對司法活動的監督可不可能去進一步影響到透過司法活動"},{"start":7578.783,"end":7594.517,"text":"我們去知悉的個人的隱私社會連結誰跟誰之間有所謂的往來或者是誰跟誰之間特別是我們之前的司法審判活動你們都知道了特別是在媒體報導底下裡面的所謂的獵巫或者是公眾輿論審判的問題"},{"start":7596.198,"end":7612.972,"text":"那由於時間緣故所以我大概把它稍微做一下簡單整理大概也只能是跟各位說明一下所謂的這個司法審判的這個監督跟透明化我們自己目前就至少在體制上面來講"},{"start":7613.632,"end":7630.291,"text":"包括裁判法官的申請監督判決理由的實質說理還有上訴審的事實審的上訴審或是法律審的上訴審基本上這也是讓司法他在個別的審判活動裡面可以受到外界監督的一個非常重要的一個體制上的一個手段"},{"start":7632.173,"end":7648.664,"text":"剛剛有幾位先進有提到這個那這個是舊的數據資料這是2017年106年國事會議做成以後當時司法院所做的估計要花多少錢其實我不知道因為這個還是要實際上如果假設這個法律要通過的話大概那個如果要推動這個可能到時候要請"},{"start":7649.164,"end":7675.106,"text":"那個民眾黨能夠多支持可能司法院還要再多花一點錢因為這個錢一定必然還是要由司法院來出來它不太可能會變成是由直播因為這個是如果假設對法院有提出這樣一個要求那我還是講一下說涉及重大公共利益或社會矚目案件因為在民眾黨團提的裡面大概有這幾個事件那我前面稍微補充一下因為這個是法院組織法的修法"},{"start":7675.706,"end":7701.314,"text":"但我們同樣是屬於法院組織其實我們有好幾個法律不是只有法院組織法而已我們還有行政法院組織法我們還有制裁及商業組織法那制裁及商業組織法第38條是不能公開的所以現在如果我們這樣其實我不太能知道就是說因為稅務案件它是行政法院行政法院組織法裡面那行政法院組織法本身對公開這件事也是沒有明白的規定那我如果說"},{"start":7702.114,"end":7722.271,"text":"假如說以民眾黨提出來這個討論案件的話我不太就是說重大公共利益這件事情到底公職人員選舉官員或是民意代表的貪污受賄或重大經濟犯罪這個都是在草案裡面提到的逃漏稅捐其實逃漏稅捐可能不是適用法院組織法因為逃漏稅捐案件是在行政法院組織法的適用案件裡面"},{"start":7723.272,"end":7750.337,"text":"什麼叫社會矚目案件可能凱凱那個事情大家都會知道或是高雄的有一個連續殺人用分屍的方式去殺人這個大家會覺得眾人矚目不論外遇這個民事案件裡面其實也可能會有涉及當然我們還是要強調家事事件法少年事件法其實已經對他自己本身事件的處理程序裡面已經有不公開的明文規定還有剛剛提到的制裁及商業法院的組織法裡面也本身對他們的"},{"start":7753.438,"end":7772.766,"text":"這個審判程序是不公開的這個部分還是必須要去做一定程度上的調和那法律審的部分我提一下法律審不是一定不會談到事實因為所有的東西都是必須要透過個案的這個事實的描述去含涉到法律的這個構成要件的過程"},{"start":7773.126,"end":7799.351,"text":"那這個裡面的事實描述裡面藉由法院之口我們大概就可以知道這個人逃了多少他透過什麼方式去逃漏構成了所謂的詐訴或其他不正方法或者是在個案裡面我們認為他侵害了什麼什麼樣的一個權利這個都是一個涵設過程就是透過事實的描述去具體去對法律構成要件的解釋適用的一個過程所以如果是涉及到個案的部分"},{"start":7800.091,"end":7815.966,"text":"不管是事實審或法律審建議還是審慎為之但如果最後面我們講一件事情說那什麼情況有可能可以做法庭上的直播呢那個憲法法庭的法規範憲法審查的程序是可以因為法規範憲法審查其實跟國會的"},{"start":7818.829,"end":7836.007,"text":"公開這個比較接近因為國會為什麼公開大家都知道因為現在我們這個國會裡面包括這個都有一些直播的這個可能性那我講說因為憲法法庭裡面它除了關於人民權利救濟程序的這一個"},{"start":7837.168,"end":7863.301,"text":"法規範或是裁判的憲法審查以外那其實這個法規範憲法審查因為比較接近是對立法者或是行政部門對法案本身的一個考量這個是一個立法行程公簽的一個判斷特別在這件事情上面我想希望法庭做法庭直播也可以讓這個方式可以透過一個讓全國民眾比較知道當初的立法"},{"start":7863.541,"end":7871.194,"text":"或者是當初這個考量究竟在現在的時空底下是不是還符合憲法規範一直的要求那我想我們就因為時間緣故我就簡單報告到這裡謝謝"},{"start":7874.377,"end":7899.694,"text":"好 謝謝柯教授我想這部法令 台灣民眾黨的這樣的草案的一個提出其實它法律審的部分它的原則還是公開法律審的時候 那個部分 例外它是不公開事實審的部分它也是原則不公開那例外的部分它才公開只是說這個草案的部分 我們今天就有一點"},{"start":7900.435,"end":7925.573,"text":"比較沒有聚焦啊,他那個90條那個地方就是事實審法院他是講高等法院跟地方法院在審理涉及重大公共利益跟社會矚目案件這個部分啊就比較可惜的我剛剛一直都沒有聽到就是在公開行訴訟之辯論或裁判的宣誓所為之錄音錄影這個部分啊他到底不是全部都是公開播送就是說裁判的宣誓這部分我想大家可能會沒有意見"},{"start":7926.354,"end":7939.788,"text":"那只是說他那個整個在辯論像譬如說法官在指揮訴訟是不是只有辯論這個範圍你如何去做一個特定那我想剛好今天的提案人這個台灣民眾黨我們黃國昌委員也到現場我們接下來請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":7948.091,"end":7955.237,"text":"謝謝主席我很高興我們司法法制委員會的莊委員召開這場公聽會時間還沒開始我現在是要對你講話剛剛莊委員說很高興我來到現場所以你時間要給我多一點嗎"},{"start":7966.437,"end":7983.015,"text":"對每一位來的學者專家都溫柔對待然後你的如果專業意見的提出我們再斟酌好不好好謝謝謝謝莊委員好非常感謝今天所有的學者專家波隆來參加這一場公聘會"},{"start":7984.016,"end":8009.73,"text":"那過去這段時間有一些法官協會、檢察官協會啊律師團體發表的聲明其實我都拜讀過了那裡面我想可能充滿了蠻多的誤會我先簡單跟大家講一下這個是什麼照片這個是英國的最高法院在YT上面現在就有啦在場的每一個人現在打開你們的YT頻道"},{"start":8010.936,"end":8036.512,"text":"就可以看到,這是英國最高法院他們的法庭直播2017年,斯坦國是會議決議的時候,說要推動法庭直播這個是第四分組的會議結論這是第四分組的會議結論當初贊成的委員15個人我很負責任的把當初贊成15個人的頭像都放在這邊"},{"start":8037.899,"end":8052.626,"text":"這些都是我們社會上面敬重的人士有一個特點那個特點就是裡面法律人的比例是非常低的為什麼法律人的比例是非常低的每一個受過法律專業訓練的人我常常講要學會謙卑"},{"start":8058.772,"end":8069.236,"text":"不是法律專業的傲慢可以凌駕人民的意志當然裡面也有一些我們敬重的法律學者像李念祖大律師像嚴絕安老師"},{"start":8071.807,"end":8094.477,"text":"當初有關於隱私權討論的問題其實都納在考慮的範圍當中那這個是當初2017年所作決議的內容司法院到目前為止只有憲法法庭其他的部分毫無下文所謂其他的部分毫無下文包括最高法院的大法庭"},{"start":8095.865,"end":8104.915,"text":"那事實上當然就不用講了連最高法院啊都毫無下文那有人說法庭直播會造成國家巨大財政的負擔"},{"start":8106.338,"end":8131.735,"text":"剛剛也有學者專家問到這件事情禮拜一司法院的副秘書長跑來台灣民眾黨黨團找我要說明這個法案我欣然同意我坐下來準備跟他好好談法條的構成要件我們的司法院是不是有進一步的高見認為說我們不要給法官這麼大的裁量權我們條文要不要定得剛性一點"},{"start":8133.328,"end":8160.978,"text":"什麼叫做條定的剛性一點啊 我簡單講目前法院組織法原則公開審理 例外不公開審理請問例外不公開審理的要件是怎麼設定的非常的抽象為什麼非常的抽象我們交給法官在具體的個案當中加以裁量那針對我們所提出來的草案我當天問副秘書長說架設一個法庭這樣子一個波要多少錢一百九十幾萬"},{"start":8162.694,"end":8183.255,"text":"我們的最高法院一年行言之辯論的有多少案子我國的最高法院一年行言之辯論有多少案子我跟大家報告啊不到十件不到十件包括大法庭包括民事訴訟包括刑事訴訟一年不到十件"},{"start":8185.343,"end":8200.4,"text":"設一個法庭的設備他說一百九十幾萬我算兩百萬轉播要錢我也把它加進去司法院回去打一打算盤啊你們當初在推人民參與審判的時候你們光廣告費花多少錢真的在推人民直接參與審判光廣告費花多少錢"},{"start":8208.035,"end":8224.707,"text":"一本一本交給民視一年都幾千萬幾千萬在執行的怎麼會沒有錢很有錢啊現在有人在法在國會裡面造謠說要好幾百億我的老天啊這個是造謠還是問政啊"},{"start":8227.537,"end":8252.702,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團我們提出的案子法律省的部分我們參佐了司法院當初所提出來的初稿原則公開 例外不公開那為什麼例外不公開就是大家擔心了嘛有涉及到國家安全嘛會造成個人生命身體隱私嘛會妨礙營業秘密嘛這個時候就不要公開啊我把決定的權限交給誰交給法官啊交給法官啊"},{"start":8256.298,"end":8264.324,"text":"現在好像討論到每一個法律省的案件一定會牽涉到事實一定會牽涉到個人的隱私我必須要老實講在討論問題的時候這不是一個負責任的態度我為什麼這樣講我自己當過被告我也當過證人"},{"start":8281.735,"end":8304.176,"text":"我希望法庭能夠公開是什麼在法庭活動當中應該要受到公眾監督的法官跟檢察官是什麼在行使職權的當然不是所有的案子社會矚目的案子才會發生這樣的事情我不管在當被告或在當檢察官的時候我非常驚訝的是什麼"},{"start":8305.256,"end":8327.842,"text":"非常驚訝的是說我們刑事訴訟不是改採當事人改良式的當事人進行主義以檢察官在法庭上面的論告提證他必須要負舉證責任證明我有罪但是我自己法庭活動的經驗是什麼我因為集會遊行法的案子被起訴過接受審判過我也去當過證人"},{"start":8329.622,"end":8336.038,"text":"我去當證人的時候 我當庭作證說那個極有法的案子的主謀根本不是現在這個被告 主謀是我主謀是我"},{"start":8340.39,"end":8368.806,"text":"結果發生什麼事聽完我的證詞了以後檢察官應該要趕快起來辯駁啊說不對不對證人你虛偽陳述你講的不對結果那法官問說請問檢察官有沒有什麼意見要補充因為辯護人傳我嘛他們主結問檢察官要反對結問嘛結果檢察官站起來我沒有任何問題那他如果沒有任何問題的話那代表你們當初起訴就起訴錯人了嘛"},{"start":8369.918,"end":8397.472,"text":"最後進行補充結問的是誰是法官跳下來補充結問這是我當證人的經驗我當被告的經驗一模一樣我當被告的經驗一模一樣那你說會侵害到什麼隱私我老實講我不知道侵害到什麼隱私但我必須要說有沒有案子會涉及到個人的隱私婦女權益的保護兒少的保護當然很重要全部把它排除在外嘛"},{"start":8398.618,"end":8422.985,"text":"我沒有寫一個剛性的法條喔說這一定要直播 沒有我們為什麼要權衡公眾的利益為什麼要權衡隱私權的保護為什麼要權衡最後的營業秘密我把權力都交給法官了耶讓法官在個案當中去裁量目前要不要行公開審理有誰裁量 有法官裁量在卷證資料裡面"},{"start":8425.237,"end":8450.399,"text":"當事人公開的部分 就有關於卷證資料要不要限制或是禁止他閱覽特定部分誰裁量 法官裁量 刑事訴訟 民事訴訟全部都是做這樣子的規範我們為什麼做這樣子條文的設計 理由在這裡如果各位先進覺得說相較於目前法院組織法 針對不公開審理我們的要件太抽象"},{"start":8451.932,"end":8474.432,"text":"相對於我們目前卷證不公開我們設定的要件太抽象我們敞開心胸跟各界請教歡迎大家提出具體的修正建議這也是那天司法院到黨團來我希望跟他們交換建議的結果司法院來就是他沒有要跟我討論法條因為從法律審到事實審司法院全面反對"},{"start":8475.493,"end":8503.349,"text":"司法院全面反對主席站起來 抱歉夠兩分鐘我很快把他帶完因為今天我的PPT我要列在會議記錄當中我帶大家看這個是台灣人民對於法庭公開支持度超過七成五支持超過七成五支持大概兩成五反對的我相信裡面很多法律人這我都尊重這我都尊重台灣民眾黨的支持者比例最高96%"},{"start":8505.57,"end":8522.711,"text":"國民黨84%笑得很高興的莊銳雄委員你們民進黨的支持者73%你如果覺得我做了這個民調不對沒有關係歡迎大家貢獻勞力時間費用一起出錢來做民調問問看台灣人民大家想要什麼"},{"start":8523.972,"end":8543.155,"text":"結果我們推這個以後有檢察官團體說什麼說唯一推動法庭直播的就是中華人民共和國我老實講建清檢凱裡面很多檢察官我認識我基本上還蠻尊重他們的法律專業但我沒有想到會漏到用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論"},{"start":8544.235,"end":8570.495,"text":"用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論這是不負責任的政客才會幹的事情我們的檢改團體怎麼會做這種事呢所以呢他們跟我聯絡了以後我就說怎麼會有這種低級又無恥的討論方式結果建清檢改的檢察官說欸學長你不要介意啊這不是我們講的啊這是媒體自己下標啊一條龍的操作配合得非常好"},{"start":8571.716,"end":8599.522,"text":"原來推動法庭直播也要被抹紅那我們來看一下這個是我剛在大家看過的這是英國最高法院這個是什麼這是英國上訴法院都是法律省啊他們走的比美國還前面走的比美國還前面所以現在英國是什麼英國也跟中華人民共和國看齊嗎英國最高法院英國上訴法院都要被抹紅嗎"},{"start":8601.257,"end":8627.77,"text":"加州法院法庭直播的規定維吉尼亞州州法法庭直播的規定到今年2025年美國聯邦國會議員繼續推出什麼Sunshine in the courtroom法庭陽光法案大家討論的隱私權的保護他們裡面有沒有規範 有啊那授權法院去做啊你擔心證人臉被認出來那你就把他臉遮蔽啊"},{"start":8629.926,"end":8650.912,"text":"大家如果有參加過法庭活動都知道我們法庭直播的時候像我每次去公開法庭我看得到證人的臉我看不到我看得到他的後腦勺如果連看他的後腦勺都有疑慮的話那沒有關係啊把他後腦勺給mark起來這些都是司法院在具體在進行操作的時候怎麼樣針對隱私權怎麼樣針對營業秘密做細緻的保護"},{"start":8656.818,"end":8669.24,"text":"最後其實法庭直播在我國有發生過啊2000年蘇建河岸高等法院開庭更審的時候全程轉播他全程轉播在外面還放一個電視牆"},{"start":8671.603,"end":8693.481,"text":"記者進不去這我同意記者進不去因為你不知道記者攝影大哥的鏡頭會take什麼他搞不好一直take那個法官的臉一直take那個檢察官的臉讓那個法官跟檢察官遭受到重大的心理壓力這樣不好所以他就完全統一一個鏡頭就是法院裡面所take的鏡頭怎麼取緝"},{"start":8694.902,"end":8721.173,"text":"讓我們的法院決定訊號搬到外面來連接一台電視機這台電視機大家有沒有看到一群攝影大哥在電視機前面看那個司法院自己直播的四十省這不是法律省喔四十省電視的轉播然後用攝影機在那邊拍那個電視然後出來了中華電視公司在我國有做過四十省的直播出了什麼事發生了什麼事"},{"start":8725.271,"end":8752.702,"text":"誰的隱私被侵害我必須要說在具體個案的操作上更細膩的去保護人民的隱私權不願意不願意出現的這個我們都同意現實上也都可以操作但是在推動這個立法方向我完全沒有辦法贊成司法院現在連法律省都說回去了他不是只有事實省不肯"},{"start":8754.165,"end":8780.428,"text":"連法律省都說回去法律省負擔有很重嗎我再跟大家講一次我國最高法院目前行延遲辯論的案子一年有幾件十件都沒有十件都沒有讓大家聽聽嘛聽聽我們的法官跟辯護人在交換意見的時候到底是在協同發現真實發現法律還是有上對下教訓的方式怒斥"},{"start":8782.475,"end":8790.141,"text":"下面的當事人跟辯護人這個本來就是人民在參與審判的過程當中一個非常重要的民主前途謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請真理大學法律系教授吳景清主任來發言發言以前黃國昌委員剛好要走出去"},{"start":8812.099,"end":8831.589,"text":"幾乎他的案子我都會去反對他但是反對到最後讓他去提出修正案這是很好的這是很扎實的我們也都不是為反對而反對他剛也提了一席意見倒也值得大家聚焦來討論接下來我們請吳主任的發言主席各位大家好"},{"start":8832.762,"end":8861.781,"text":"那這個我今天聽完一輪包括黃國昌委員剛才那個論述我一個感想就是說今天我們討論的包括前面提到還有包括我等一下要提到的跟2017年司改國是會議各位去翻一下正反兩邊的意見是不是都一樣這個是我第一點提出台灣司法改革的悲哀"},{"start":8863.338,"end":8880.695,"text":"經過了幾年 八年我們還在討論同樣的問題而且那個政法裡面論述是一樣的各位不相信去檢視一下然後第二個 剛才有提到有一些大部分我發現到只要是在司法圈裡面工作的人基本上都反對"},{"start":8882.076,"end":8896.788,"text":"我聽起來是這個樣子喔那最後我想到十幾年前司法院在推那個人民參與審判制度一開始提到的是官審制那各位一樣去檢視一下當初邦發司法院喔"},{"start":8897.889,"end":8911.585,"text":"為什麼一開始要提官審制那個反對的理由跟今天反對法庭直播的理由各位去看一看有沒有相似啊我就不講了那首先第一個是針對今天好像大家比較少提的這個"},{"start":8914.046,"end":8939.974,"text":"評議部的那個保存的問題啦那我也贊成啦 翁委員這個這個提案是沒有什麼問題但是我要提的是說這個在法院組織法裡面針對呢那個死刑判決的這個評議的部分他只要死刑評議這個要永久保存 這個沒有問題齁那可是呢 難道只有我這裡提到的 難道只有那個評議的那個意見要永久保存嗎"},{"start":8941.78,"end":8965.377,"text":"包括有關死刑案件所有的卷證那是不是也應該要永久保存那這個又涉及到一個一樣是2017年我又再指責一下我們有誰現在去檢驗2017年死感規範我們到底有多少達到的包括那個刑事這裡會連接到刑事證據保全的問題到現在我們有法治化了沒經過了8年欸"},{"start":8967.873,"end":8996.306,"text":"所以這個問題應該是連結到還是回到思感國際所以當初也是有一個決議書那個有關刑事證據啊 卷宗啊那個保存的問題啦應該要配合那邊去啦尤其是那其餘的那個評議的內容還有一點更重要啦就是說目前這個裁判確定以後關於可以申請越來評議意見的啦目前僅限於在裁判確定了以後才可以去申請我要越這個"},{"start":8997.706,"end":9025.467,"text":"評議的內容那主體是這一些那現在就有一個問題了就緊接著就連結到第二個問題就是那個直播的問題那關於那個裁判評議的這個內容因為現在判決確定以後這些人 這些主體才能去申請這個月欄那現在就有一個問題喔那裁判評議的這個內容是不是也應該是屬於公開審理的一個部分就是說他也要公開啊"},{"start":9027.071,"end":9029.433,"text":"這個可能是我連結到下面一個問題"},{"start":9044.189,"end":9057.134,"text":"這個公開審理基本上直接公開大概現在比較沒有直接公開就是目前我們看到一般公開當事人可以到法庭判定那今天的重點不在這裡今天重點在間接公開的部分那你說現在有沒有間接公開"},{"start":9058.639,"end":9081.135,"text":"這個老實講 我覺得目前當然是有因為我們允許媒體可以針對整個審判過程去做報導甚至做素描 甚至做審判者同意也可以錄音然後做事後的報導還有或者是說事後把它公佈到網路上面那當然今天問題比較大的是現場立即的直播"},{"start":9084.232,"end":9088.682,"text":"因為我這個 按得很用力喔好 欸 怎麼又不見了"},{"start":9096.992,"end":9122.225,"text":"那目前我們有的就剛才有提到憲法法庭這個是已經止步而且他是take down每個人所以這個是目前最直接那一般因為是屬於憲法層次的一個討論可能大家認為個案沒關不過剛才聽柯教授這樣講好像他也有可能涉及到個案那最高法院我昨天再去上網去看一下最高法院目前針對言辭辯論的話他是有把他放上去的"},{"start":9122.805,"end":9150.228,"text":"但是呢 跟2017年那個王德路那個原住民的獵槍的問題一開始跟我昨天上網去看的喔 是不是沒有差別就是說他只有聚焦在這個PPTPower Point 然後聲音的傳播然後不去tag這些人好 那這個是目前最高法院針對原子辯論的那事實上就是剛才黃委員提到的就是說 欸 這個很難想像 2000年喔老實講齁 目前不管哪一種 哪一種方式的直播"},{"start":9151.189,"end":9176.169,"text":"都沒有法律依據耶我為什麼都可以做所以這個就是很奇怪因為2000年他是把他電視牆擺在外面那當時有沒有禁止媒體說我可不可以把他拍下來放在電視沒有喔當時是很開放的喔所以各位真的很難想像2000年的時候針對蘇靜安我們就已經在做直播類似一種跟現在我們講的那個直播差不多的形式耶"},{"start":9184.925,"end":9188.608,"text":"目前還有後來就是在疫情期間疫情期間因為當時不能群聚所以我們當時就有所謂的遠距開庭"},{"start":9199.915,"end":9221.972,"text":"好 那各位就要想一下當時的遠距開庭當然是對當事人公開啦事後你也可以去取得這些當事人可以去月券也可以拿到這些全程的錄音錄影但是現在就有一個問題了各位 在疫情期間那個時候的遠距開庭有沒有線上直播可以讓所有的民眾上去看"},{"start":9223.84,"end":9242.786,"text":"市場是沒有的所以老實講當然這個現在已經過了但是我們不知道哪一天會碰到同樣的情況所以我們也要思考這個問題在當時是沒有對一般民眾公開的就是說我不能上去只針對當事人好 那基本上我們可以再做一個比較同樣的疫情期間美國發生的案件"},{"start":9244.156,"end":9262.257,"text":"這個就是弗洛伊德案那這個就是一個黑人去買東西然後呢這個可能他用了什麼假鈔然後呢就報警警察來了以後就怎樣把他壓地然後就贊成他死掉了這件事情那我們就要看這個例子來這個呢他是全程直播的"},{"start":9262.797,"end":9289.971,"text":"像這類案件在美國我看一下它是陪審制度嘛好 那它永遠就放在那邊好 那我們時間的關係我後來去查一下在當時它的直播方式它的直播方式是蠻開放的來 它最主要有兩個電視台去做所謂的直播一個是NBC就是國家廣播電台另外一個是PBS相當有點類似我們的公共電視好 那我這裡有看出來"},{"start":9291.932,"end":9307.908,"text":"在NBC這兩個都有在YouTube直播各位可以上網去查這個NBC它是同時上線是有100萬人然後PBS是20萬人那你要說兩個的差別在哪裡人數多寡以外就是留言板的問題"},{"start":9309.605,"end":9323.434,"text":"那個NBC它有開放留言所以那個留言數非常非常的多但是如果PBS它封閉了留言板它不給你留言這個可能就是這個那我們就要想一個問題這樣的人數喔 不管在哪一個國家都一樣這個當然我們會對賠償員或者是對證人會有影響但是真的有影響嗎"},{"start":9333.612,"end":9352.878,"text":"真的有影響嗎這個判決做出來以後美國人會普遍美國人會認為說這個不公正因為你用了直播嗎好像看起來是沒有所以我是覺得我是贊成我說要贊成法庭直播我可以講100個贊成的理由同樣如果反對直播一樣也可以是100個的反對理由"},{"start":9353.658,"end":9374.246,"text":"那我覺得至少就我而言法庭直播它確實可以促進程序正義嘛那有些在場的這個不管是法官啊檢察官今天沒有人到律師都會害怕所謂的戲劇化的問題我每次聽到這個戲劇化我就覺得怪怪的如果說我們不管是檢審片"},{"start":9376.187,"end":9396.137,"text":"基本上都符合大家對他的一個期待你的專業的期待的話會不會直播你就想要表演嘛那如果你有這種心態的話我覺得是你對你自己本業尊重的問題啦然後再來就是說你的直播會不會什麼什麼一大堆什麼一路審判可是我要問各位啦"},{"start":9397.514,"end":9405.793,"text":"現在這個時代你沒有網路直播媒體對受阻礙案件就不會去報導去描述去批評嗎"},{"start":9408.551,"end":9432.401,"text":"這有什麼差別好 那再來就是證人跟鑑定人的壓力的問題我說齁 這個壓力遠很多啦基本上我只要出庭我就有壓力啦啊 只是說啊加六轉波壓力加多少嘛那我舉一個例子像鑑定人啦齁這個去年我們五月刑事法有新制鑑定的新制實施了以後啦目前各位去看一下刑事的意思鑑定有多少不想去委任的可是現在沒有直播啊"},{"start":9433.035,"end":9450.596,"text":"那怎麼解釋呢 那當然就是對國民法院的影響那最後呢 因為時間我也到了啦所以我的意見是說 剛才一直在提到啦說那個什麼社會重大矚目等等等我是覺得啦 以凱凱案為例啦 大家很關注"},{"start":9451.377,"end":9464.387,"text":"以及緊接著像剛才有提到的高雄的分屍案也即將進入國民法官審判還有明年1月1號我們國民法官也適用到罪行本行10年以上這個就會卡到公務員受賄罪那如果是這樣的話我覺得啦"},{"start":9466.428,"end":9489.718,"text":"光法院執法不夠或許就先從國民法官法開始另外這邊或許可以先從國民法官法這邊去制定呢到底要不要直播的這個規定授權給法官我們可以用國民法第六條嘛第六條它有一個裁定不行的不行國民法官的我們可以配合這一條去做修正然後來由法官聽取大家的意見來決定要不要直播"},{"start":9490.558,"end":9518.589,"text":"那如果在這個法律你這樣規定以後也一樣直接針對國民法官法我也可以設計我怎麼去保護國民法官我怎麼去解消證人跟鑑定人的壓力所以我最後的關注就是說公開審理原則它不是一個封閉的內涵一定要隨著時代跟科技不動的去擴充內容我覺得法庭之波不能保證司法的透明性但我認為絕對可以保持司法的公正性 謝謝"},{"start":9522.904,"end":9528.248,"text":"好 謝謝發言 接下來請紀凱峰律師發言主席"},{"start":9542.301,"end":9564.017,"text":"各位委員各位與會的先進還有老朋友大家早安我是紀凱峰律師我先簡單跟各位自我介紹一下我曾經我其實我是現在是職業律師可是我是去年七月份辭職在辭職之前呢我曾經擔任台北地方法院以及台灣高等法院金融專庭的法官"},{"start":9566.485,"end":9582.632,"text":"我擔任法官的時間大概長達22年不算很長,可是也不算短那我生涯,我任官的生涯當中大概有一半的時間,大概都在處理重金案件那當時台北地院剛成立金融專庭的時候,其實我們是連"},{"start":9584.312,"end":9612.882,"text":"重大社會矚目案件也一起拉進來所以那時候叫重庭專庭我還記得我進台北立院重庭庭過沒多久就收了林義士案所以當時是非常矚目的案件可能現在不要再說各位有些人可能已經忘記了當時我們何一庭收到這個案子所以我非常非常清楚在美光燈下的法官"},{"start":9614.801,"end":9638.312,"text":"甚至後來我們判決了之後我記得大概不是很想要回憶的過去但我記得大概有差不多一個月的時間吧我們三位法官大概都在我可以說是媒體的追殺之下所以我非常非常清楚本來是應該是一個"},{"start":9640.49,"end":9662.167,"text":"純正的審判空間然後在媒體或是美光燈或是全國人民這個算是無差別式的關注之下會受到什麼樣的壓力我非常非常清楚所以我今天在這裡發言 剛才提到這個"},{"start":9665.953,"end":9693.234,"text":"法庭直播制度其實坦白講我也不反對啦我也知道說其實這個司法的公開透明其實是人民因應其判的而且人民對司法的信賴很大程度的確建立在司法的公開透明上而人民對司法的信賴本來就是我們司法具有正當性的基礎可是大家不要忘記我們司法權跟立法權有個很大很大的不一樣"},{"start":9694.554,"end":9718.782,"text":"我們司法權尤其是刑事審判很重要一點就是要避免人民公審或是輿論審判否則讓立法院來審判就好啦我們法官在這個地方其實就是某程度上是有點像反多數決啦就是要避開這個所謂的人民跟或是說輿論的這種壓力我舉個例子齁"},{"start":9722.503,"end":9750.584,"text":"林義士那個案子當然現在還未決我記得好像還未決當年有一個很重要的爭議就是貪污罪條例裡面的公務員收受賄賂罪所以執行職務收受賄賂那個執行職務怎麼去解釋我印象沒錯的話大概有法定職權說或是實質影響力說實質影響力說又分成不同的其他說但是在林義士那個案子裡面這個部分我們何怡婷當時認為是有爭議的"},{"start":9754.281,"end":9772.568,"text":"但是一般輿論認為沒有爭議結果這個案子後來過了好幾年最高法院還開了延遲辯論就辯論到底應該採取哪一說代表什麼意思代表他在法律上確實有爭議啊可是"},{"start":9778.344,"end":9798.352,"text":"當時的輿論就是我們一審法官在審判當中在我看來我們的感覺是輿論認為沒有爭議所以對我們形成了某程度上很大的壓力但是還好啦我們是受過專業訓練的法官專業訓練的意思就是要能夠抵抗住壓力可是你能保證所有的法官都這樣子嗎"},{"start":9799.847,"end":9824.138,"text":"所以我今天其實不僅是一個具有實務經驗法律人的身份也是出於一份對司法制度的深切關懷所以我這邊要深切的呼籲各位委員附帶一提其實我再次強調我並不是反對法庭直播我是覺得這個進步惡毒是有點太快了吧我們今天討論的問題不是應該在委員會討論嗎"},{"start":9830.211,"end":9849.324,"text":"所以我今天也是出於一份對司法制度的深切關懷所以我在這邊誠摯的呼籲各位委員其實司法審判不是一個試驗場不是一個科學的試驗場這個推動法庭直播的這個制度呢其實影響非常深遠所以不是一時之間就可以很草率的把它通過"},{"start":9851.981,"end":9879.827,"text":"這個與其說我擔心什麼所謂的隱私權受侵害的問題其實我更擔心的是司法最核心的這些價值例如獨立、冷靜、理性跟中立假如貿然讓所有的審判都放到這個人民的視野之下的話其實有可能會造成反而是會受到反效果的"},{"start":9884.156,"end":9910.837,"text":"剛剛有很多先進提到好像比較法上美國很多州也是開放法庭直播那我們就看看強尼戴普案各位還記得強尼戴普跟他老婆跟他前妻是什麼事情誹謗可是真的每個人都關心他們誹謗的真點嗎我相信不是的大家反而是抱持著看戲的心態"},{"start":9912.418,"end":9931.595,"text":"而且現在你去網路上面搜尋強力逮捕案網路上面一大堆迷因都是針對證人 要不是針對專家惡搞這些證人跟專家他們不是涉案的人士可是他被迫承擔來自輿論的羞辱而且這些影響到現在還繼續存在"},{"start":9934.545,"end":9961.376,"text":"社群平台 Twitter YouTube上面充斥著各種偏頗的剪輯跟情緒動員所以輿論會一面倒把司法過程 把這個司法的審判變成一個網紅比拼的戲劇場律師跟法官每一個動作都被放大檢視法官跟律師在這種情況之下也受到巨大的輿論壓力將會造成什麼效果 剛剛很多先進都提過了"},{"start":9962.495,"end":9980.456,"text":"證人跟專家有可能會因為害怕被貼標籤影響他們的出庭意願或他們誠實作證的意願這會直接影響司法發現真實的功能還有一個更重要的法官、證人、律師還有所有訴訟當事人"},{"start":9982.526,"end":10000.04,"text":"在處於鏡頭的注視之下之後有可能在無形當中要自我調整行為去迎合觀眾的期待甚至去表演 對不對這時候審判就會轉變成鏡頭下的說服跟操演而不再是法律跟理性的交鋒而且最令人擔憂的是什麼更進一步"},{"start":10000.64,"end":10028.32,"text":"律師跟當事人的訴訟策略也會把他轉向變成情緒性的動員挑起觀眾同情再用這個輿論反過來壓迫法官我沒有講特定個案我只是說這個我們現在馬上就近乎二讀有點奇怪當然黃國昌學長是我很尊敬的學長可是就是說這個時候我們就不禁會懷疑他會不會實質去干擾我們司法獨立這時候我們還會講什麼無罪推定跟罪行法定"},{"start":10030.269,"end":10048.507,"text":"這變成空談了所以其實我再次強調我們並不是反對司法改革其實我也支持提升司法和透明可是我認為其實這個透明呢應該以實質要達到實質目的為目標而不是以攝影機的鏡頭為表徵"},{"start":10052.984,"end":10080.258,"text":"最後我想針對剛才主席提到的有一點這個沒錯我看一下我們通過這個條文我覺得很奇怪我先簡單解釋一下很簡單行事訴訟我就講行事訴訟好了行事訴訟的程序是準備程序再來是審判程序審判程序裡面有兩個主要部分一個是證據調查然後一個是言辭辯論言辭辯論喔所以審判程序裡面包括證據調查跟言辭辯論"},{"start":10082.898,"end":10108.076,"text":"我剛剛聽國昌委員他以他自身的經驗說應該法庭直播他自身的經驗受到不開心的經驗上對下被教訓都是在什麼程序準備程序跟審理程序的證據調查他希望公開的應該是這兩個部分吧可是我們看條文"},{"start":10111.996,"end":10127.552,"text":"高層法院 地方法院 市市審 審理這些案件的時候於公開行訴訟之辯論及裁判之宣誓時所為的錄音錄影可以公開播送講的是審理程序的延遲辯論跟宣誓判決"},{"start":10128.772,"end":10150.508,"text":"沒有講到黃委員關注的那個部分但是我坦白講這可能有爭議啦可是你純粹法律上來看好像是這樣子沒有錯所以這點我也提出來總而言之啦這些事情都是應該在委員會裡面討論的吧怎麼馬上就進負二讀了咧所以我還是最後呼籲就是"},{"start":10153.439,"end":10181.218,"text":"請各位委員還有我們全國同胞讓我們共同守住法院司法系統這一塊冷靜理性發現真相的空間不要讓鏡頭來決定正義的樣貌謝謝大家好 謝謝我接下來呢來做一個程序上的宣告啦我們麥玉珍委員發言結束以後我們先休息五分鐘接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":10183.519,"end":10197.594,"text":"你也不要期待立法院的水準很高也沒有啦立法院的水準也沒有很高啦但是大家應該都是很努力啦只是說有時候涉及到專業的部分聽聽大家不同的意見啦這個我們都非常樂意來 請麥委員"},{"start":10200.793,"end":10216.42,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位先進 各位親愛的家人 大家早安一正今天要明確的表達台灣民眾黨強力支持法庭直播制度化的法治化"},{"start":10217.34,"end":10242.14,"text":"並呼應朝野政黨本與改革初衷共同推動司法透明的精神落實人民知情權與程序正義法庭直播制度不是噱頭 也不是表演而是當代民主社會對開放政府透明司法的基本要求"},{"start":10243.06,"end":10260.573,"text":"這不只是媒體進入法庭的問題而是整個社會如何理解司法信任司法的關鍵一步台灣早在2017年的司法改革國事會議中就已經"},{"start":10262.394,"end":10275.898,"text":"達成推動法庭直播的共識如今終於開始推動修法程序以審議草案不應再停滯不前更不應該因為個案爭議"},{"start":10278.679,"end":10285.087,"text":"就整體否決的改革我們支持法庭直播應先從法例審等無事實爭議的案件前面實施並針對重大公共利益"},{"start":10293.717,"end":10300.124,"text":"案件逐步開放事實省直播對於隱私與人權的疑慮我們認為這不是問題的終點而是設計制度配套的起點"},{"start":10310.765,"end":10318.552,"text":"在沒有法庭直播的情況下反而是未經查證的網路謠言政論節目的片面臆測主導了社會輿論唯有公開透明以審判的過程才足以爭"},{"start":10329.282,"end":10354.493,"text":"才足以真本情願避免社會背不實的資訊誤導我們不能再用20世紀的思維去看待21世紀的司法制度法庭直播資訊傳播的進化而是人民監督的進步"},{"start":10355.353,"end":10363.838,"text":"也是對法院最直接最強烈的信任的宣示台灣民眾黨主張這場改革不應該淪為意識形態的之爭而應該是民主深化的契機我們呼應朝野政黨回歸初衷以法庭直播作為重見司法的公信"},{"start":10382.99,"end":10409.318,"text":"拉近司法與人民距離的關鍵工程最後我們支持立法院紮訴審議修法廣納民間的意見讓這項制度更周延穩健的商路司法改革不能是菁英內部的討論而應是全民參與的實踐"},{"start":10412.018,"end":10434.263,"text":"謝謝大家大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝麥玉珍委員這大家都有聽到各個政黨本來會有不同的看法那這一部法令其實我到我剛一直在傾聽各位的發言我像我一直在看我剛看到那個我們"},{"start":10435.043,"end":10458.51,"text":"民主訴訟法跟刑事訴訟法對於人證部分它就有一個不同的一個設計你像譬如說我們大家有對庭的經驗應該很多前輩都很清楚你說一個證人到法庭上他在證言的時候有旁聽的人法官也許認為會問你你有壓力沒有 有壓力我們叫他先出去連這個都有設計到這樣"},{"start":10462.771,"end":10482.039,"text":"但刑務署反而又沒有這樣的一個設計那剛剛大家有提出來的這部分就跟整個直播啊會不會這個當然涉及到真實發現因為怕當事人就會有壓力證人會有壓力嘛那我們今天是講的就是說要不要讓他公開播送那公開播送"},{"start":10482.839,"end":10502.054,"text":"你說對你看剛剛委員進來的他們就是站在比較變成一個開放的一個法庭讓民眾來做一個參與提供民眾對司法以後更信賴的一個誘因也不是不對但只是說怎麼樣去把這一些大家所提到的這一些"},{"start":10503.786,"end":10528.035,"text":"大家提到說很怕引起的對這些就比較弊端也不敢說是弊端就是有不同的看法認為說這樣反而會有如下如下的剛很多學者專家所提到的這些疑慮那這些可能等一下再透過不同的看法大家再踴躍再提出來"},{"start":10529.275,"end":10549.852,"text":"其實最主要我是覺得比較可惜的一點就是敬夫惡毒這個就少了一個討論就唯一比較可惜的地方否則其實有聚焦耶我這倒覺得是蠻有聚焦的只是說這一場還好我有排的這一場讓各位來表達你們的意見否則咻一下你們連表達意見的機會都沒有我們先休息一下好不好 謝謝"},{"start":10999.403,"end":11006.636,"text":"來 請坐 我們接下來我們請政治大學法學院我們楊雲華教授"},{"start":11016.799,"end":11041.986,"text":"主席還有各位在場的貴賓好我想今天我就法庭的審理活動要不要錄音影然後公開播放這個問題提出我個人一點的淺見我想法庭審理是一個公開審理的活動然後把它推廣到所以"},{"start":11042.984,"end":11067.628,"text":"我們更應該把它錄音錄影以後公開的向社會直播可能很多人認為這個是當然之理啦我想這是因為他們沒有真正去了解過什麼叫做公開審理的在訴訟法上面的意義公開審理這個制度在近代是"},{"start":11069.045,"end":11083.002,"text":"法國大革命以後才有的當時最主要的理由就是要破除所謂的內閣司法跟密室司法也就是說在之前的很多的法庭審理活動是門關起來的"},{"start":11084.624,"end":11096.798,"text":"社會大眾不知道的沒有受到社會監督的於是行政的力量 君王的力量很容易就在這個密室裡面下達他的指令再加上法官當時並不獨立的這個結果"},{"start":11099.601,"end":11116.026,"text":"會造成很多的問題那法國大革命以後呢就提出了這個法庭審理必須公開也就是說在法官審理的時候這個法庭必須把門打開必須讓有意願的民眾可以進來旁聽"},{"start":11118.252,"end":11137.602,"text":"這就是他最基本也最重要的意義那至於說公開審理是不是要讓更多人可以參與也就是所謂的民眾可以多多益善呢更符合公開審理的意義我想從法律史上來看從來沒有提過這個觀點簡單的來說公開審理就是希望"},{"start":11143.772,"end":11160.143,"text":"法官在審判的時候他就是依據當庭當事人所提出來的證據法律的觀點 辯論 結論等等法官也只能依據這個獨立的做出判決而秉除掉"},{"start":11161.564,"end":11175.251,"text":"門關起來不讓社會大眾接觸可能的遭受到的政治的干預所以公開審理主要的目的是在保護法官的獨立性至於"},{"start":11176.417,"end":11199.323,"text":"要不要擴大民意讓更多的人參與或者更多的民眾參與可以確保裁判的正確性從來就不是公開審理這個原則所考慮到的事情也因此德國的法院組織法在19世紀末制定的時候就把公開審理這個明文化"},{"start":11200.578,"end":11216.945,"text":"那歷年來德國所有的重要的判決談到這個原則的時候他只強調一點法院在審判的時候法院的門不可以是緊閉的法院裡面要提供適當的座位讓"},{"start":11219.045,"end":11243.839,"text":"有意願的民眾都可以進來旁聽也就是如此所以呢他們從來不會去討論那如果要讓更多的民眾參與那法庭應該在什麼在體育館啊在菜市場啊不是更多的民眾可以參與嗎那是不是更符合公開審理的目的答案並不是如此一直到了20世紀乃至於到了21世紀"},{"start":11246.19,"end":11272.752,"text":"整個媒體、網路發達以後當然德國也有極少數的人有提到說那是不是我們可以也來播放讓民眾可以很輕易的譬如說在家裡也不用千里迢迢跑到法院才能參與法庭活動那這不是更方便嗎能讓更多人的更多人可以輕易的接觸到法庭活動"},{"start":11274.563,"end":11293.694,"text":"這個意見很快就被否定了主要的理由有三第一個如果法庭是可以這樣公開播放的話無異於讓法庭的當事人本來是訴訟主體的地位結果今天很容易淪為類似以前羅馬競技場雙方的廝殺、鬥爭反而變成什麼"},{"start":11301.839,"end":11319.179,"text":"人民觀賞馬戲團一般的法庭活動這是第一個最主要考慮第二個就是考慮到法官審判的獨立性的維持如果今天我們輕易的把這個法庭活動這樣播放我相信以今天的環境"},{"start":11321.271,"end":11342.792,"text":"很多人可能隨時會在他的直播節目他的網路節目上面要求大家來投票說各位認為今天法官是不是未審先判各位覺得今天法官的問題是不是專業各位覺得今天這樣的訴訟結果將來被告會"},{"start":11345.492,"end":11370.946,"text":"會不會被判刑甚至會不會被判到死刑嚴重的影響法官的審判的中立跟獨立第三個也是最重要的如果這樣輕易的可以公開的話如同各位先進先前所提到的很多訴訟參與人的他的隱私他不想被人知道的地方可能都要揭露出來"},{"start":11372.579,"end":11400.481,"text":"剛剛有先進提到那如果有這種情況那法院就裁准不予公開不就可以了我想這個是對法官太高度的期待難道法官就不會侵害基本權嗎難道說法官裁准了要公開於是不管當事人的意見不管證人的意見一律就要公開嗎我們今天的司法"},{"start":11401.653,"end":11425.45,"text":"一直說要司法為民要讓人可以親近司法樂於使用司法那但是如果這樣草率的結果反而是讓許多人民害怕司法不敢走進法院難道這是我們整個司法改革希望看到的目標嗎所以德國在"},{"start":11427.395,"end":11455.282,"text":"2024年也是有少數人提出了那現在網路發達了為什麼不可以適度的利用這種技術把法庭活動公開呢幾乎在德國毫無爭議的順利通過修正法院組織法修正不是說擴大這種公開審理或者說網路這種播放的範圍而是明文禁止所以呢"},{"start":11457.421,"end":11475.49,"text":"公開審理並不代表一定要讓更多的人參與更多的人輕易的參與就能更符合公開審理的目的因此德國很清楚的在2024年的修法裡面原則上通通禁止"},{"start":11476.57,"end":11486.535,"text":"法庭的這種錄音錄影當然包括他的公開播放只有在極少數的狀況譬如說在他的法律省"},{"start":11488.444,"end":11512.436,"text":"如果審理的案件具有歷史、具有學術重大意義的時候才很例外的允許錄音錄影但是他也不是允許公開播放而是說將來有研究參考的價值的話在特定的情況是允許這些做學術研究的人進去翻閱這些檔案那最後我要強調的是"},{"start":11514.642,"end":11541.025,"text":"整個如果從公開審理的出發點就誤解了然後想當然爾的理所當然的認為那就是要對全民更為開放我想是對這個制度的一個重大的誤解那以今天在台灣的現況之下我個人會認為如果輕率的就開放錄音錄影而且可以公開直播"},{"start":11542.657,"end":11567.932,"text":"他可能要達到的目的可能是像有些人談到的要讓司法更透明更公開能不能真的達到這個目的我是持高度的懷疑那達到這個目的的同時我們可能要犧牲掉什麼就如同剛剛前面各位很多先進談到的可能法院的公正審判獨立審判可能所有訴訟參與人"},{"start":11570.238,"end":11594.775,"text":"他個人的權利包括個人的隱私個人的人格可能都因為這樣的緣故遭受到無可回復的損害那這又啟示我們簡單的說可以在法庭遮蔽他啊可以提供一些保護措施啊完全這就可以充分的防止嗎我認為"},{"start":11596.62,"end":11622.521,"text":"從這個角度來看也是高度違反比例原則最後我想請各位先進有時間的話去看一下4-689號它裡面提到了人民在公共場域是不是還是擁有隱私權在那一號解釋裡面非常清楚的提到隨著科技的進步我們可以不斷的觀看記錄放送"},{"start":11626.378,"end":11649.404,"text":"對人民的隱私權尤其在這種科技的時代只有造成更大的侵害所以我們在立法上反而更需要保護他那時間到了 我的發言就到這裡謝謝大家好 謝謝楊教授的發言接下來請東吳大學法律系陳清秀教授發言"},{"start":11659.102,"end":11682.61,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士先生大家早安大家好那很榮幸有這個機會來參與這一堂的這個公聽會那首先對第一個主題有關於評議的記錄是不是應該要關於死刑的部分要不要永久保存那這個司法院現在已經通過了修正了他的保存的相關的規範"},{"start":11683.61,"end":11705.497,"text":"已經這個問題應該已經是法律上已經解決了所以應該不需要不過從這個議題倒是讓我發現到我們台灣的法治有一個非常詭異的地方就是說法官的評議是屬於內部的事項為什麼要公開給當事人來瞭解"},{"start":11706.377,"end":11720.742,"text":"我以前在職業律師的時候聽到有一些律師啊他左後門去賄賂法官如果你今天可以讓這個評議紀錄讓當事人律師可以閱覽他就知道他有沒有賄賂成功啊他是不是"},{"start":11722.062,"end":11745.381,"text":"這個地方如果要給他施加政治壓力 或者各種的影響審判的情況透過這個評議紀錄 雷月蘭就知道他的壓力施行有沒有成功啊所以換句話說 這個是助長官商割捷啊助長貪污舞弊 助長干預審判的制度我們早年的法案組織法 沒有這樣規定耶"},{"start":11746.562,"end":11769.46,"text":"我們看看德國跟日本的立法律 評議紀錄是永久保密法官自己都不能夠公開 你還居然還可以給當選 還越攬太荒謬的立法律這是在我以前職業律師沒有辦法想像的事情我查的結果發現是民國90年的時候我們立法院把他修法加進去 他的目的說他要保障"},{"start":11770.18,"end":11792.433,"text":"平易的 確實弱勢平易制度那弱勢平易制度有需要採取這種手段嗎你可以透過行政的監督 司法監督了解你們是不是真的有弱勢平易還是只是虛晃一招啊這個可以用其他方式處理你怎麼會搞一個法律制度讓大家內神通外鬼呢這是很危險的一個做法我是非常的誠實的呼籲應該要刪除這個規定"},{"start":11794.874,"end":11810.608,"text":"刪除這個規定評議記錄的話你看日本這個德國日本的做法他為什麼要保障他的秘密性呢首先他就是要保障法官獨立審判不受外界的干涉如果你今天還可以伺候越南就知道他干涉有沒有成功啊"},{"start":11811.249,"end":11838.348,"text":"是吧 他貪污舞弊 他賄賂有沒有成功只要去看評議記錄就知道他當年指的發言是不是有沒有支持他判無罪啊是不是可以支持他這個要原告之處駁回還是怎麼樣呢這個等於是公然的給他有一個管道啊去確保他的賄賂的這樣一個管道是不是有效確保他政治施壓有沒有成功這個是很危險的一個制度啊我覺得沒想到我們台灣居然有這樣一個法令規範還存在了幾十年"},{"start":11840.589,"end":11852.574,"text":"我覺得我們立法院應該趕快修法才能夠確保法官獨立審判的空間接下來我們看看法庭公開審理我想法庭公開審理他的目的在我的報告60頁這裡"},{"start":11854.844,"end":11873.4,"text":"主要有三個目的一個是民主的正當性法官裁判應該受到人民的監督第二個確保法官的一個程序的透明公平審判增進人民對司法的信任不過我想我們只要了解這個法庭的公開審理"},{"start":11874.881,"end":11887.167,"text":"他所涉及到的各方的利益因此我們在做法規修法的時候必須要做法規的衝擊影響評估也就是所謂的利弊得失的分析也就是因果關係的"},{"start":11890.509,"end":11910.059,"text":"我們知道這個公開審理他如果用公開播送這個就變成是民粹在審判不是一個司法審判因為他司法審判刑法權的行使要確保他的公正合理合法如果我們今天公開給社會大眾媒體來先來審判"},{"start":11912.02,"end":11930.236,"text":"那我們就搞民粹運動啦就變成是感性超越了理性我們一個國家要進步一定要理性超越感性你今天設置一個法律制度會感性超越理性會讓這個案情不太了解一知半解的人來參與監督然後呢來表決啊來做媒體的審判啊"},{"start":11932.498,"end":11948.165,"text":"這個就會進入到所謂的這個民粹的一個審判情況就是不符合專類理性的一個審判的做法這是第一點第二點我們相關的當事人的權利證人的權利被告以後想要再融入社會的權利會不會被剝奪啦"},{"start":11950.506,"end":11964.94,"text":"我們要鼓勵被告將來可以改過自新 融入這個社會現在都把它上網公佈了 昭告天下啦好像是遊街示眾啦 比遊街示眾還更可怕因為它可以永久保存啦遊街示眾只是一下子就過去啦我們比遊街示眾更嚴重的一個律法呢這個是很危險的做法"},{"start":11971.266,"end":11993.249,"text":"因為這個整個剝奪被告重新融入社會做人的一個機會同時如果對一些有利害關係的你現在知道證人作證對他不利這個證人會面臨到生命身體財產的危險法官如果這個都這樣公開於眾他走路的時候呢是不是要很小心啊我們要保障法官的"},{"start":11994.21,"end":12011.367,"text":"公正獨立審判的環境啊你不能夠設置一個法律制度讓他充滿著人生生命安全的威脅啊他的家人我們要給他保護啊證人也要保障啊你怎麼會搞一個為了要哗眾取寵然後讓我們整個制度呢非理性化"},{"start":12012.308,"end":12038.036,"text":"這個就是倒行逆施的一個規範我們建議應該要考慮一下所以德國跟日本的憲法法院最高法院的他都裁判啦這裡的地方涉及到法官的這個刑花犬的行使是要來發現事實真相證人如果說在媒體的這樣一個直播的情況底下他敢講真話嗎他講真話他面臨多大的風險啊"},{"start":12041.977,"end":12046.92,"text":"我們要確保證人能夠憑著良心講話結果你營造一個法律環境是讓他不敢憑著良心講話這個是好的制度嗎所以我覺得這個問題是很嚴重的我們覺得我們應該朝向公正理性的保障法官的生命財產安全保障他家人的生命財產安全保障證人的生命財產安全讓他敢講真話我們要營造這樣一個合理的環境而不是走向一種滑頌取蟲的一條路線"},{"start":12072.157,"end":12089.831,"text":"我們今天如果要做民調那你要把這個有利不利的資訊都要全部的公開讓大家理解不是純粹只是問一個很簡單的問題這個是複雜的涉及各方利益我們各方利益都要公平去考慮兼顧不是只考慮一方的利益我們這個"},{"start":12090.652,"end":12116.358,"text":"媒體的公開雖然說接受媒體的監督但是我們監督有很多種方式你採取的手段太激烈啦會影響到這個裁判的公正性這個就完全背離了目的啦因為我們是刑罰權的行使是要恰如其時的不爭不檢的來處罰他來維持社會的秩序超過這個手段的話呢違反比例原則這就是違憲的法律啦"},{"start":12116.798,"end":12133.564,"text":"就變成違憲的法律所以我覺得我們這個地方要保障我們的相關制度能夠合理可以運作否則的話它是有很大的一個風險這是我個人最近把它做一個整理之後發現德國"},{"start":12136.045,"end":12143.667,"text":"聯邦憲法法院的判決2001年的1月24號有一個判決日本在1958年也有一個判決他們認為這個事情還是應該要比較慎重一點所以我是建議我們應該要注意一下也就是說公開審理主義還是有一些例外我看德國的例外它規定了蠻多類型"},{"start":12158.132,"end":12164.155,"text":"當然我們會回應社會大眾可能希望對司法的資訊的公開的需求所以德國在2024年有做一個修正法院組織法就有稍微有放寬了一點我所了解好像是放寬不是緊縮放寬一點我的報告在62月這邊他有放寬一點但是他放寬的不是很多至少他把影像都去除掉了我們剛剛講了影像的一個播送會妨礙到生命財產安全"},{"start":12186.147,"end":12208.535,"text":"我們要了解我們世界上不是全部都是好人啊也有壞人啊有一半可能是好人 一半可能是壞人啊你現在把資訊都提供給壞人那好人怎麼獲得保障呢一個法律制度不可以讓壞人有機會可乘啊就像我們剛剛講的 便宜的紀錄你提供給當事人 律師去越南那不就是讓法官沒有辦法很公正處理了嗎"},{"start":12209.675,"end":12230.935,"text":"為什麼我們會有這種制度呢?這個表示我們失利不足啊,欠缺合理性你看德國、日本為什麼評議記錄都永久不公開呢?甚至於根本沒有記錄,為什麼呢?因為他要確保他的一種秘密性確保他一個公正審判的環境,獨立審判的環境不受任何的政治的干預,媒體的干預,以及當事人的干預"},{"start":12231.636,"end":12246.23,"text":"我們今天設計的法律制度居然容許大家來干預司法這樣還要希望司法能夠做得更好那不就閻目求疑嗎所以我覺得整個制度設計是錯誤的因此我們建議應該要重新調整一下最好是發回來"},{"start":12247.311,"end":12270.307,"text":"再由委員會再詳細討論一下比較好當然我有說有一部分在法律省的部分是不是可以適度的開放也許可以考慮考慮因為這個比較也許但是還是要保障法官的生命財產安全我覺得這個是很重要的我們請他當國家做事不能危害到他的生命財產安全這個是很重要的一件事情以上請多指教 謝謝"},{"start":12272.022,"end":12285.45,"text":"好 謝謝上清下秀 陳清秀教授但是給你預告 你也很清楚 這正負二讀這個案子 我是要給整個程序給大家餘力"},{"start":12288.106,"end":12297.932,"text":"招社會公信啦不同意見讓他出來啦那接下來剛好可以因為你剛才形容一部叫做導行歷史喔 聽起來我是驚心動魄啦剛好台灣民眾黨張七凱委員都可以回應你來 接下來請張七凱委員發言"},{"start":12309.258,"end":12320.257,"text":"張熙楷委員發言之前我先做一個程序上的宣告啦我們公聽會上午的會議時間就繼續進行到所有的發言都結束為止好 請"},{"start":12326.006,"end":12342.864,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這麼好的這個公聽會今天我傾聽了一個早上正面反面跟中間的聲音都有很好我覺得就是應該多傾聽這個意見這邊其實台灣民眾黨提出這次這個法庭直播有四大很重要的依據第一個是"},{"start":12345.529,"end":12372.224,"text":"民國106年司法改革國事會議的結論像大家如果仔細看我們的提案都是依照當時的結論去做的第二個我們做過了大型的這個民調高達7成5以上的民眾是贊成的國昌有提醒那個水泳你民進黨的民眾也絕大部分是希望可以看到法庭直播的另外國外有很多的這個例子我前幾天在這邊已經"},{"start":12373.945,"end":12401.813,"text":"不算打臉啦我已經提醒了民進黨的這個吳思堯吳委員不是法庭直播不是只有大陸也不是只有北韓在先進的國家美國加拿大跟英國都是有的我們剛剛上清下修有講在德國有一部分也是有的嘛對不對這個它是一個改革的方向另外有個第四的依據其實國內也有過啊蘇建和漢也有過嘛所以這四大依據"},{"start":12402.873,"end":12431.472,"text":"我們在這種狀況之下提出來裡面最重要的一個依據是什麼呢106年為什麼叫做國司法改革就是民眾對司法的滿意度很低嘛人們有很多疑問啊所以你蔡英文才要召集所有的專家學者要開這個司法改革會所以今天我們是站在一個分水嶺上面你是要往改革方向走而且杜佩如要去反改革特別是我剛剛講已經有四大依據了特別是台灣民眾黨的這個提案"},{"start":12433.154,"end":12461.471,"text":"清清楚楚是依照當時的這個結論包括當時結論裡面明確建議是什麼法律審在延遲辯論應該是要全面直播另外呢去延遲事實審有某些特定案件去進行直播所以台灣民眾黨提出來的具體的這個內容包括第一個我們建立法庭直播的時候是明定法律審原則是公開的例外不公開可是事實審"},{"start":12462.572,"end":12484.413,"text":"事實審視原則不公開 例外是公開的你看 這也是當初大家所有專家學者包括還有改革色彩時候的蔡英文提出來的這是第一個點第二個點我們開放條件是非常明確的 有兩個一個由被告主動來申請今天我聽到某些學者說這個可能會侵犯到被害沒有啊"},{"start":12485.501,"end":12505.644,"text":"就在保障他 所以他主動可以提什麼會不會傷害到被告呢另外呢由法院基於重大的公共利益還有社會上重大的矚目案件才開放 才一定去開放啊他一定是社會上很多的嘛所以不會出現民進黨講的怎麼花六七百億直播沒有 第一個"},{"start":12506.874,"end":12515.886,"text":"一定是重大的這個案件而且對整個社會公共利益是有幫助的你才會這樣做嘛而且我那天也提了民進黨不要講說什麼花太多錢第一個"},{"start":12516.98,"end":12541.978,"text":"你怕你每天大家都要看直播對不對我去問過了明年大概就是一億嘛所以不要弄一個什麼六七百億這個謊言出來是不好的第二個現在那個我是從媒體來大家知道嗎現在比較重要一些會議包括總統會開會有時候你協調有一個電視台進去嘛他不只轉播啊這個錢轉播費用人事費用都是可以省下來的所以錢也不是問題另外呢"},{"start":12543.444,"end":12559.236,"text":"我們要採取不是強制的具備有裁量而且是非常謹慎的這個原則我們明確排除喔案子裡面如果是未成年人性侵的案子家庭暴力或者是機密國安等案件是排除在外的"},{"start":12560.587,"end":12584.062,"text":"這個都是當時106年司法改革會議的這個結論啊所以啊 我們的態度說這個不是一個司法的秀場它是一個制度的公開我今天啊 特別帶了兩段影音都很短我給大家看一下好不好我們看一下當初還是有改革色彩的蔡英文當初的民進黨怎麼來推動司法改革讓我們對他一路來我們看一下當初蔡英文怎麼講司法院"},{"start":12591.276,"end":12608.977,"text":"將陸續開放法庭法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播讓必要的資訊更加透明"},{"start":12611.6,"end":12635.494,"text":"讓必要的資訊可以公開透明其實這幾天我有時候常去司法院旁聽司法院那個牆壁上面掛了一個要推動公開透明我們現在沒有辦法推動另外剪了一段來我們看一下當初這個做結論的時候主持會議的來我們聽看看市市審在一定的條件下可以直播這樣的用語可以嗎對對對對好 全面反對市市審直播"},{"start":12638.052,"end":12664.589,"text":"三票好那贊成直播的十一省可以直播嘛所以不是英語而是可以嘛的確是十票啊那就是一定要主席表態啊真實現在是什麼意思那有十個人逼迫我投票那我也只好投票啦就是這樣那就是十一票好建議加因為你們的提案所以可能只有你們可以加就是高度憲政爭議yes及政治性安全沒問題損害救濟如果因為法庭直播產生出來的損害救濟其實也應該一定考慮"},{"start":12665.535,"end":12681.306,"text":"我可不可以建議再加一個類型重大經濟還可以所以寫重大經濟案件就好了因為這是蓋瓜星的語言啦重大主謀案件各位提到很多現在的敏感性案件公開直播的效應是什麼大家稍微想像一下喔如果今天這個公開主謀案件他隨時受網民監督喔事後還會被肉搜正能講話會不會有心理壓力可能要顧慮了"},{"start":12682.066,"end":12706.138,"text":"其實公開透明要考慮的真的非常多但是呢如果我們認為公開透明是一條歸路剩下就真的是安全機制的問題那我們也對自己的能力要有一點信心我們是一個有能力的現代公民準備去面對所有的困難解決我們所面對的任何難題我們今天是處理其實有結論就很好然後大家的共識是很清楚的這點比什麼都重要"},{"start":12707.968,"end":12730.642,"text":"這個主持會議的是前大法官徐義秀徐義秀的話為什麼要特別要剪出來司法改革是一條不歸路我們本來就要往前走啊 現在又倒退路而且我們對我們自己也要有信心好不好謝謝給我一分鐘好不好 我做個剪大家都知道啊 我剛剛講不是全世界很多國家而已大家一定記得強尼代普大家想一想喔 強尼代普的老婆啊"},{"start":12734.517,"end":12761.061,"text":"安保賀德他那時候受的就是用媒體審判啊沒有法庭直播之前他老婆放了多少消息給媒體一面倒啊強尼戴普怎麼去救回來他的法庭直播救了強尼戴普也救了一個司法正義嘛一樣的我給大家看一個負面的例子我們國內有一個很有名的叫媽媽嘴命案大家有印象嗎那時候那個老闆叫李炳宏沒有法庭直播啊"},{"start":12762.332,"end":12780.797,"text":"多慘啊這咖啡店老闆因為被誣告被羈押的時候那時候已經有多少媒體知道消息一直在放消息他是不是已經被媒體公審了所以現在有沒有柯文哲也是啊你在媒體現在有沒有在公審柯文哲有沒有以前公審這個李炳宏這個問題要怎麼解決讓陽光射進法院"},{"start":12785.629,"end":12809.939,"text":"法庭直播可以解決這個問題對不對法庭所有的審判過程都是經得起考驗的第一個不會有願意民眾對司法的信任度才會提高我也做一個結論好 謝謝事實上只要法庭直播我記得對司法院也是好的這段時間司法院出了太多事情包括鐘鼎文跑掉什麼那些啦包括什麼台南一些案子陳忠業的案子"},{"start":12814.042,"end":12835.718,"text":"人民一定很想看透過法庭直播陳中彥都已經被起訴了台北地院竟然判沒罪現在檢察官又起訴我現在全國民眾也是在想怎麼透過法庭直播清清楚楚知道到底出了什麼事情為什麼會判陳中彥去幫他父親的廠商所有相關人都有罪了陳中彥沒罪"},{"start":12836.599,"end":12845.567,"text":"中頂門跑掉了這案子人民都等著要看嘛 對不對好啦 感謝你啦透過陽光射盡 射盡司法體系讓我們的司法體系受到人民的信任謝謝好 謝謝喔 這個我們上清下秀教授剛才說的說倒行逆施你沒給他回應啦其實喔"},{"start":12859.005,"end":12882.096,"text":"那個公開播送 公開審理沒有人說他是這個洪水猛獸啦也沒有人這樣認為啦只是說這些疑慮啊怎麼樣去讓我們司法院再提出更好的一個看法而且大家剛提到的是在講你們沒有去講的你去 這麼好的意見你不要讓大家討論你人情無二度 你知不知道這次你連說明也不敢說明你人家只會亂說"},{"start":12890.04,"end":12915.098,"text":"中憲可以拜託他這裡再開 再多講一點 多請聽大家的意見你們就禁夫惡徒啊 否則我會白你們也有白啊否則我會白 否則就發一個給你們再開啊你很好你就繼續排啊 中憲也可以再排不是嘛 什麼法案禁夫惡徒以後你叫我繼續排是嘛 然後呢然後呢 這個叫做立法院喔這個沒有審理耶 我認為沒有審理耶"},{"start":12917.963,"end":12935.33,"text":"立法委員要審不是學者專我們是要吸取他們的經驗來以後加入我們審理的時候參考意見欸水泳啊 你在日本這麼久啊到時候二審的時候二讀二審的時候你可以提出很多意見那要委員會幹什麼要委員會幹什麼你們就去啊 你們可以去發言啊我們會被你們剝奪啦"},{"start":12942.313,"end":12949.718,"text":"你講的這些都叫做政治語言嘛所有人今天講的全部法律的實務嘛法律實務你就是不懂嘛啊不是啊 那都讓你發言完啊已經讓你發言完了換別人 你就尊重別人啊"},{"start":12976.034,"end":13000.958,"text":"感謝立法院今天給我這個機會來發言尤其是謝謝主席辦這個公聽會非常棒讓政法的意見都可以被聽到我先講一件事情立法院的直播怎麼來的立法院直播就是2016年我去推動的"},{"start":13002.25,"end":13027.46,"text":"我跟工都門一起去推動,我去拜會那時候的立法院長那是民進黨開始第一任的立法院長的時候我在2016年2月去跟他報告然後來院長就同意了4月8號就直播了那以前沒有立法院直播之前,大家也怕要死啊很多都反對啊,國民黨實在都反對嘛對不對"},{"start":13029.81,"end":13050.894,"text":"所以民進黨執政就有這個契機嘛所以我一直覺得民進黨是一個民主的政黨所以才有辦法促成這樣的一個立法院直播所以你現在打開頻道123、124就可以看到立法院直播啊然後網路也可以 你在國外也看得到啊"},{"start":13052.768,"end":13079.367,"text":"所以這不是很好嗎那同樣的今天講到法庭直播法庭直播其實剛剛大家有提到2017就是私改國事會議的結尾但是今天為什麼會變成有將近20個法律團體出來反對我們陪審協會是贊成的我們發了一個聲明問題在哪裡我就講第一個就是說法庭直播不是問題"},{"start":13082.038,"end":13108.327,"text":"問題是黃國昌提出來就變成問題嘛問題是在這裡啊法輪直播本來就不是問題啊是因為黃國昌提的嘛那這個就是變成是我是覺得這個政黨的惡鬥的問題我是覺得我不贊成這樣子我是本土派的我利用的我很清楚但是我始終認為法輪直播是世界趨勢我們不應該因為黨派"},{"start":13111.411,"end":13128.117,"text":"而改變立場第二個就是說像我剛剛聽了一輪第二個問題是什麼為什麼會有20個法律團體我們也算法律團體我們是贊成的出來聲明但是2017國事會他沒出來反對"},{"start":13130.506,"end":13149.331,"text":"我覺得法律人團體,台灣的法律人跟社會脫節,這是第二個問題那第三個問題是什麼?剛剛很多學者專家說一堆保留意見這個就是台灣社會法律為什麼思考大家一直看不起的地方七八成民意反對"},{"start":13151.175,"end":13176.388,"text":"我們都太迷信 落伍了德國跟日本的法律制度嘛都舉德國的制度 舉日本的制度這台灣司法敗壞的開始 因為德國日本太落伍了好 那我說這個法庭直播是世界的歧視第一個 南非在2013年 我想大家還有印象有一個奧運金牌檢手 他因為截肢 然後他槍殺他女朋友"},{"start":13178.49,"end":13201.823,"text":"2013我就看全世界直播審判在南非台灣憑什麼要輸南非還有我大概19年前我去印尼印尼就有審判直播我到他的法庭上有四五台SNG那我看到印尼的印象什麼印尼的法院的審判法官的態度比台灣的法官好"},{"start":13202.745,"end":13224.046,"text":"然後19年前他就審判直播我再講一個案子2016我有一個商標專利在印尼我去開叫做Coffee Murder2016我跟當地的律師在討論全印尼都在消看咖啡謀殺案後來那個被告叫做Jessica被判有罪判20年"},{"start":13225.764,"end":13247.489,"text":"欸 台灣現在還在講法庭直播20年前 19年前的印尼早就在直播了啦我們現在在講這個事情不是讓人家笑嗎再來美國 我想2016德瑞克的這個案子因為那個黑人叫做弗洛伊德被壓制了好 我秀照片給大家看欸 這個跑不動照片怎麼跑"},{"start":13262.228,"end":13282.094,"text":"2016德瑞克這個案子這個是加拿大的最高法院都是公開的 我們台灣的最高法院也不公開啊這個是哪個國家的法院 每天開庭這個是埃及的最高法院"},{"start":13283.959,"end":13308.403,"text":"莊主席啊 埃及每天都在開庭 最高法院 我們都不開庭我們的司法局也不屬埃及埃及每天開庭啊這個是加拿大 這俊博不要說 我在加拿大這個是印尼 這個就是我剛剛講的Jessica的審判直播啊她後來被判重罪啊這個是哪裡"},{"start":13313.527,"end":13336.981,"text":"我兩個議題一起講啦 這個是秘魯的最高法院啦我去看秘魯的最高法院 如入無人之境 它都是公開的全世界的審判都是公開的 而且最高法院一定開放讓人民自由進出 只有台灣不開放欸 我們連法院 法庭都不開放了 你還講直播所以你知道我們台灣的追準"},{"start":13338.632,"end":13365.692,"text":"行政、立法、司法,司法是全世界最弱武的我們司法民主化感謝很多民主前輩,包括民進黨的東華我們讓立法民主化都可以選我們這樣行政、立法民主化可以選總統、選市長我們的司法還躲在秘密審判的黑箱我們最高法案不開庭我們的大法官原則上也不開庭只有例外才開庭所以我今天為什麼要秀這個"},{"start":13367.356,"end":13396.198,"text":"這個秘魯,大家覺得是第三世界,但是它必定比較公開所以不要把它當洪水門,這個就是它的最高法院啊這個秘魯啊這個是歐洲的這個是土耳其這個是哪個最高法院,哪個國家最高法院以色列的最高法院"},{"start":13397.779,"end":13406.809,"text":"沒有人不公開的啦 只有台灣不公開 這以色列最高法院然後我講這個是德國 我講一下 2015我去德國"},{"start":13408.055,"end":13430.244,"text":"德國的政修最高法院不開放,我只能在門外,但是靠關係才進去結果我去德國跟大家報告,德國最高法院開假的,沒有在辯論我的法官去,上訴聲明被上訴,結案了沒有在辯論,那我不信啊,大家都說德國外號都在留德,拿什麼博士"},{"start":13431.209,"end":13457.54,"text":"我就聽下來 聽第二個案子 第二個案子一樣啊說一個重大案子 上訴聲明 被上訴的結案德國沒有在真正的延遲辯論 他的最高法案也是假的我們在寫什麼德國 我們台灣的司法的問題就是傻傻的寫弱武的德國這個是德國的地方法案 我也看他的參審"},{"start":13459.093,"end":13480.338,"text":"德國的檢察官不會問證人 德國的律師也不會問證人比台灣的律師還不如 因為我們2003年採用的交互結婚制度加債所以台灣優秀的律師 像賴芳玉現場的優秀律師我們的交互結婚技術都比德國的檢察官跟律師好所以拜託 不能夠去耳濡耳的德國"},{"start":13482.284,"end":13510.098,"text":"我們現在的問題就是學一個落伍的國家的制度什麼都不行剛剛專家都是講德國啊那我剛剛跟大家報告的英國在2009都已經開放好我秀這個照片是什麼就是講2016佛羅伊德這個案子你看這個是法官法官有被威脅嗎重點是什麼剛剛也講到輿論審判好這個就是專家出來第二天"},{"start":13513.112,"end":13534.339,"text":"專家出來才重要是什麼才不會被那些這個名嘴因為沒有直播名嘴靠著他輿論媒體的優勢胡說八道然後造成不當的輿論然後影響到審判的正確性我們看一下美國這樣的2016的一個審判直播播了六個"},{"start":13536.518,"end":13560.233,"text":"六個禮拜你看這個醫生來當專家這個是廢 為什麼造成那個德瑞克 佛洛伊德為什麼59秒就會產生心癢不足所有的市政政績專家在電視前面講得清清楚楚就不會有不當的議論審判 不當的讓名嘴去亂七八糟的胡說八道一通"},{"start":13561.013,"end":13589.016,"text":"像剛剛的這個紀凱峰他的審判他有壓力因為那時候就沒有直播啊所以沒有直播你審判媒體就一直亂報一通啊有的報正確的有的胡扯一通所以你看美國為什麼他的司法為什麼會讓人家覺得公正因為你透過直播審判你把真正的證據跟事實呈現也讓專家出來好好把事情講清楚這個國家的司法才會讓人家公正才會安定所以"},{"start":13590.151,"end":13603.76,"text":"主席 謝謝你 你要有信心啦謝謝 我都聽政法人的意見 我才會沒信心我也在開宗明義給你點出說這不是洪水猛獸但問題就是說 其實啊今天這個議題啊"},{"start":13605.501,"end":13631.609,"text":"它核心的一個價值涉及到獨立審判啦涉及到獨立審判啦在立法院裡面的你看到各個政黨裡面立法委員的見解看法會跟實務界或者說所謂的法界這些學者專家裡面的看法是完全不一樣的甚至於立法院針對於獨立審判他都認為說你憲法法庭你這些法官你們都沒有遵照整個民意基礎"},{"start":13632.77,"end":13638.685,"text":"法官他本質裡面啊 他其實他是不需要有民意基礎的"},{"start":13639.949,"end":13668.129,"text":"法官給你有民意基礎 大家都民粹的那還得了我反而會覺得會做出讓社會嘩然的這大家只是會講說違反國民的法律感情但有些判決那其實仔細去看的話是坑坑有力啊裡面都提出一些很堅強的一個見解但沒辦法這個司法跟民意有時候真的會兩個相碰的時候啊這個是就很有名值得討論啊但是啊 今天那個鄭"},{"start":13669.75,"end":13691.087,"text":"正如剛才說的,其實今天講的最主要是講公開播送啦,倒也未必是說公開審理跟公開播送可能這個概念又不太一樣,但今天正反意見多有我這個主席是非常謙卑虛心的在聽兩兆的意見接下來,來,賴芳瑜,賴律師直接按下去對不對"},{"start":13705.495,"end":13719.124,"text":"主席也很高興看到這好多我認識的先進朋友我想就是冷靜的一個對話這個是一個今天我覺得開這場公聽會最重要的一個原因那我先講一下"},{"start":13723.852,"end":13735.304,"text":"現在我先講一下我大概是101年也就是2012年的殭屍事件法在立法公聽會的時候那時候就針對於殭屍事件要不要公開審理這件事情就被討論過"},{"start":13742.431,"end":13765.081,"text":"那那個時候已經討論出來加速事件就是一個共識就是不公開審理這是第一個那第二個呢大家其實一直在提到尤其旗下提到的國事會議2017年我也是國事會議的委員所以我也在場那麼我是第五分組第四分組的許玉秀前大法官那時候確實也在第五分組去提到"},{"start":13765.701,"end":13793.449,"text":"那麼關於法庭直播這件事情那在我們的兒少跟性別因為我在是第五分組的是兒少性別跟家是有關的是由我當組長所以呢這個我們又再分組分組之後再一個小組那這部分我們已經也有共識是採取不公開審理也沒有所謂的這個法庭直播那我也很希望在今天有個共識是家事事件跟少事法性侵害犯罪防治法"},{"start":13794.269,"end":13800.933,"text":"絕對不在法庭直播的一個範圍之內但是為什麼今天我又站在這裡站在這裡是因為我們的修正草案確實讓我們看到很大的灰色空間第一個就是我們的修正草案我從法律上來論述一下第86條去提到法庭直播的時候他沒有排除掉也就是所謂的特別規定"},{"start":13818.664,"end":13843.2,"text":"那麼換句話說現在已有的少事法跟家事事件法他是採取一個不公開審理為原則的時候他卻沒有排除那麼我們也確實有一個很焦慮的點有沒有後法取代前法的一個法律意見跑出來也就是意外的把少事法跟家事事件法我們這些所保護的包括性侵犯罪防治法突然被納入到這次的一個法庭直播的一個討論範圍這是第一件事情第二個是第90條的立法理由的修正說明裡面"},{"start":13849.224,"end":13864.949,"text":"是有意識的把少年及家事法院准用之而且他並此續名也就是說如果有共識少事以及家事性別兒少性侵害犯罪防治法家暴法等等"},{"start":13865.669,"end":13878.716,"text":"就是這些性別跟兒上法案不列入到這個法庭直播的話那麼我們既有的這個法律結構其實看來是有一些很需要修正的空間否則我真的今天不需要那麼焦慮的站在這裡了那第二個呢"},{"start":13881.969,"end":13895.601,"text":"從這邊的一個法案來看就是既然我們如果有公示的話但法律沒有修正那麼我還是站在一個如果他真的是被包含在內的時候有幾件事情我要從另外一個民間團體來扣問幾件事情"},{"start":13898.564,"end":13913.658,"text":"事實上目前兒童權利公約也好或CEDAW也就是關於婦女妾行事歧視公約消除對婦女妾行事的歧視公約裡面都有提到幾件事情也就是關於兒少的隱私權資訊的安全等等"},{"start":13914.471,"end":13929.484,"text":"以及關於性別平等這件事情是一個很重要的CDO跟CRC裡面很重要的一個意涵那麼這也是為什麼我剛才提到的那一些法案必須要把它提到一個不公開審理所以我再講幾件事"},{"start":13931.005,"end":13950.853,"text":"家事事件法不公開審理,例外公開的還是限於特定之人的旁聽所以他連這種公開審理都還不到,他只是列旁聽而已所以從來沒有一個可以對不特定人做公開審理的一個法律規範這個法律價值從"},{"start":13956.402,"end":13962.091,"text":"從2012年的家世間立法一直到現在 食物界非常堅守這個核心價值"},{"start":13963.095,"end":13983.332,"text":"所以取凡現在大家透過了自媒體做任何的網路爆料也好或者是去做一些嘲諷也好它其實都會是我們家暴法裡面有沒有涉及到精神暴力的一個議題或者是違反兒童最佳利益的一個含色"},{"start":13984.173,"end":14010.039,"text":"那麼我們為什麼會這麼認為呢而是因為這樣的一個撕裂對兒童絕對是一個不好的事情所以既然它是一個核心價值它在一個法律上我們有一個相當堅定的一個立場不公開審理這件事情是一個很堅定的一個立場那麼有幾件事情是從民間團體的立場我來說一件事情我除了是一個律師也除了是一個曾經是一個國事會議的委員"},{"start":14011.775,"end":14026.481,"text":"也是因為國事會議之後開始成立的一個司法院兒童性別委員會的一個委員之一到現在所以呢在這個歷史脈絡下面我們當然有幾個很考慮的點也就是說如果"},{"start":14027.714,"end":14054.582,"text":"我們的媒體我講媒體傳統媒體像齊凱就會非常清楚有守門員這一定有守門員一定會受到兒權服法裡面的相關規定跟廣電三法的規定關於這個報業工會裡面也有個自律委員會那麼是針對於兒少兒服權法裡面規範出來的紙媒跟這個電視媒體都有設立到的這種自律委員會來做把關的"},{"start":14055.402,"end":14080.479,"text":"但是網路媒體就是到現在都沒有所以法庭直播跟網路這件事情如果沒有任何的一個監督跟控款風險的一個控制情形下那個確實就是我們很焦慮的一件事第一個我就會先問如果假設他是被含涉進去我說假設我是希望是沒有的第一個網路霸凌這件事情我們至今都還沒有做有效的解決"},{"start":14081.781,"end":14094.315,"text":"我其實今天有提供了一個書面資料這裡頭去提到了一個在美國有一個社會組織在講霸凌不會因為下課而停止因為是有學生因為所謂的網路霸凌而自殺"},{"start":14096.297,"end":14113.898,"text":"那現在霸凌是24小時是不打烊霸凌是沒有辦法關機的情形也就是說法庭直播跟網路這邊的一個連結在一個沒有風險控管之下網路霸凌是一個我們至今都還沒有辦法解決的一個社會問題那麼董事基金會在2022年提到全台青少年有"},{"start":14115.7,"end":14124.247,"text":"2.5%遭受到網路霸凌那麼有以111年學年度全國國高中職學生總人數113萬人計總共有28250名的學生曾經受到網路霸凌5311名的學生曾經自傷"},{"start":14132.523,"end":14146.078,"text":"所以我要講這種風險是我無法控管而它造成的損害它那個damage的部分是相當的可怕的那這件事情如果說少事法或者是家事法它如果說用一個賣田補守的一個觀念來看我們如果沒有辦法守護住這些兒童的話"},{"start":14150.183,"end":14172.592,"text":"法庭直播變網路化這件事情是我們無法至今無法解決的困境第二個是高衝突家庭對孩子的傷害非常嚴重就是我剛才為什麼特地去講透過了網路的爆料也好或網路上的一個對話也好那麼對於這個衝突性是非常增加非常大的那麼我怎麼可以容許孩子們去目睹父母親的一個"},{"start":14173.832,"end":14192.983,"text":"互相在法庭上公解的一個現況呢這是一件很可怕的事情那剛才一直在講強尼戴普跟這個安伯赫德那我剛才看到一個訊息是他在這個法庭的直播裡面他找了一個心理學家去說安伯赫德"},{"start":14193.536,"end":14198.281,"text":"賀德他有borderline也就是邊緣性人格他說他曾經接觸過他12個小時然後他看過了他所有的言行還有他的心理報告等等所以他認為他可能有邊緣性人格"},{"start":14208.513,"end":14221.777,"text":"我如果沒記錯他應該沒有小孩但是如果說孩子去看到父母這種互相攻擊的衝突是被這樣的直播出來而且是全球性的在watch而且在這種二創也就是說再製的一個媒體報導的話那麼對於孩子的影響是非常的大的我要講的是法庭直播如果造成了網路化"},{"start":14230.999,"end":14256.334,"text":"那麼這些孩子們怎麼辦那第三個是討論到性別也就是其實行政院有提到一個數位性別暴力那麼大家其實也很清楚整個網路酸民也好對於性別的歧視仇恨性的語言等等是非常的嚴重的那麼在這裡頭呢包括他有沒有可能透過法庭直播而沒有辦法及時的去嚇止他而產生了一個散佈"},{"start":14257.595,"end":14284.566,"text":"關於仇視性言論等等這個是一個很嚴重的情形所以如果當我們對於網路霸凌對於高衝突的父母所透過的司法程序過程當中法庭直播而擴散了他的衝突面的時候以及再加上了我剛才去提到的數位性別暴力那麼這三件事情如果網路世界是無法對於兒少或關於性別這個議題能夠得到一個妥善風險的控管的情形下"},{"start":14285.626,"end":14302.438,"text":"我剛才以上所說的兒少級家事事件性侵害犯罪防治法都不疑有任何法庭公開的一個法庭直播的可能性我相信文龍應該也是這個意思剛才私底下跟他討論他認為說法庭直播我認為呢剛才那些法律是絕對被排除在所謂法庭直播的範圍"},{"start":14307.801,"end":14316.246,"text":"假設他是一個今天公聽會的共識那麼齊凱也在場那麼這部分法案絕對要做修正謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝賴芳語 賴律師接下來請蔡議員發言"},{"start":14334.028,"end":14356.017,"text":"好,謝謝主席,很久沒來司法委員會了今天特別來這裡講一下基本上在討論這個法庭直播,我是覺得現在事實上台灣有部分的法庭事實上也都是採取直播的比方最經典的就是憲法法庭"},{"start":14356.738,"end":14364.728,"text":"那大家也是看了憲法法庭的直播那他針對法律上的一些論戰那會覺得說這個直播是有意義的直播"},{"start":14365.444,"end":14390.721,"text":"所以如果真的要推動法庭直播的話事實上這個才是一個好的方向也就是說他可能要涉及在我最高法院或者我最高行政法院甚至到了大法庭他們針對法律論點的爭議的時候我們來做法庭直播因為這個法律論點的爭議事實上這個討論對社會是有正面意義的但是如果回到了事實審"},{"start":14392.236,"end":14410.342,"text":"尤其在事實審的時候會有結問證人會有交婚結問甚至很多會有讓被害人做他的陳述意見的機會那這個時候適合法庭直播嗎基本上我認為這是不適合因為我們知道網路造成的很多是資訊的破碎化"},{"start":14411.428,"end":14438.993,"text":"他可能在網路上看到證人講了哪一句話可能說了不是這個社會民覺得說這句話怎麼聽這句話覺得是網路上大家比較喜歡的一些言論的方向那法庭直播怎樣灌爆 篩爆不然就是把他起底把證人起底這樣起來是很恐怖的那以後證人要去做交付結論的時候他有壓力"},{"start":14441.104,"end":14451.757,"text":"好那我們說法官呢法官大家說法官本來就要面對他要做審判他要面對他的一些社會責任那大家不要忘了我們現在也有國民法官"},{"start":14453.547,"end":14481.625,"text":"有一些案件是屬於國民法官的那國民法官他也必須要承載這樣的壓力嗎因為法庭直播所以我也覺得說大家要討論這個要持平而論為什麼今天不是像大家說的說這是黃國昌的法案大家就反對而是因為他的法案直接寫高等法院地方法院涉及到的涉及重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件社會矚目什麼是社會矚目啊"},{"start":14482.895,"end":14497.043,"text":"柯文哲這案的社會矚目所以這案的在法庭直播是這樣的嗎那這一案裡面也涉及到很多證人的結論真的在結論證人說要透過直播的方式來給證人不必要的壓力嗎"},{"start":14498.798,"end":14514.404,"text":"這個東西是要檢討的那再回到了整個國際法是在講的 去講中國 講中國的推法庭直播中國的法庭你們相信嗎中國的直播是要大家的審理過程 定義是要讓後面的人看的怎麼再講一個人質 充滿人質的中國然後說這是我們的榜樣我聽了這句話 我真的要佩服了真的要佩服 講中國"},{"start":14528.042,"end":14542.821,"text":"啊 你再說美國咧 美國他那部分州咧他是部分州他有做法庭直播 但是咧 他還是限縮比較可能是在民事 他在刑事上盡量去避免因為刑事涉及到的被害人"},{"start":14543.598,"end":14568.926,"text":"那在美國的憲法法庭他們是可以開放音訊事實上也不是直播就是說事後我把音訊再提供那如果適當的話這個音訊是可以提供給社會大眾的這是在美國的做法那在英國英國他們基本上也是禁止直播但是他們是允許法官在做一些重要宣示的時候"},{"start":14569.506,"end":14586.361,"text":"他可以把這個音訊檔案可以給外界就是法官在對這個案件做裁釋的時候那他們也是說但是呢我在播放法官的一些宣誓的時候你必須要避免去播放到當事人以及證人的畫面"},{"start":14587.122,"end":14611.492,"text":"尤其是他們的臉孔這在英國也是這個做法像德國日本這個基本上大家也很清楚韓國以前也有推動過直播後來韓國也因為這個在審理的過程變成鄉民化變成破碎化的一些在處理資訊的破碎化所以韓國後來也把這個東西都收起來了所以我想這不是說台灣輸人家輸其他國家"},{"start":14612.552,"end":14625.49,"text":"日韓這個普遍大家覺得民族性跟台灣是比較相仿的國家事實上日韓也是這樣做所以我還是一句話啦不要再說中國有直播 台灣就要在那邊直播"},{"start":14626.724,"end":14640.589,"text":"這句話真的是聽不下去那台灣要來推動法庭直播我也支持的一個層次就是說我們把它限縮在屬於高度法律性的它不涉及到了事實審不涉及到了證據調查的時候"},{"start":14643.03,"end":14658.706,"text":"如果單純就法論法法律的攻防論戰的時候這個時候來做直播是有意義的尤其最近司法院事實上也做了一個很重要的過去一個很重要的一個司法院大法庭的一個處理就是在講這個詐騙集團被害人的"},{"start":14663.556,"end":14688.714,"text":"這個車手的犯罪所得要怎麼認定的時候哇 有三派說法我覺得這一種討論事實上很適合直播因為社會也需要知道說這個被害人他如何對這個詐騙集團的一個犯罪所得來做他的追查這部分是有教育意義的我會覺得像這個財事直播這是好的啊 不得了如果以今天民眾黨黃國昌這樣的一個法案"},{"start":14690.953,"end":14707.472,"text":"到了地方法院 高等法院不管是民事 刑事只要說社會矚目 它就要直播這不可通啦用這樣的一個修法事實上也是害到柯文哲啦我們請民眾黨三思啦這樣對柯文哲更有好好 謝謝"},{"start":14711.799,"end":14736.202,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員那所有學者專家及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那接著要進行機關代表發言以前我再來再做一個說明我們今天其實是正反意見讓所有的學者專家各政黨所推薦的來暢所欲言那其實今天得到的結論"},{"start":14737.443,"end":14761.56,"text":"大多數的結論大家也很清楚啦那尤其是涉及到整個法律審你說像譬如說大法庭的啦就是最高法院的啦這個機會好像比較大比較沒有意見但涉及到事實審的部分啦那問題就大啦問題有涉及到像譬如說這個是不是有隱私的部分啦還有這個公務秩序的部分甚至於還涉及到整個法官獨立審判這樣的一個問題"},{"start":14763.081,"end":14789.048,"text":"那這些其實都 為什麼我今天要排這一場 因為已經近乎二讀沒有把學者專家這些語律來讓社會知道 其實也不太好我有一個感慨 比如說這個條文的設計當然是講說只要有涉及到公眾利益的這個部分到最後是法官你去裁定就好了 要不要公開播送這個時候大家又很信賴法官"},{"start":14789.648,"end":14804.533,"text":"可是很怕這個做出來不符合期待的時候法官你就可以被幹掉了連憲法法庭法官走出來以後也是被幹掉所以這個是這就是我們的立法院這也沒辦法的事情有時候法律碰到政治"},{"start":14805.493,"end":14829.042,"text":"在日本的政治黨員就會凌駕那就很可惜可是它本質上它其實這個是一個整個法律制度要建立一個可長可久的碰到立法院我們這裡不要議會就比較麻煩了那接著我們來進行政府機關代表的發言我就不需要再說了那我們是不是請等一下喔然後請就"},{"start":14831.764,"end":14837.53,"text":"請就所送的書面資料以外的部分來做補充說明今天有收到五份書面資料 司法院一份 法務部一份 書法部一份通常會也一份 各自會也一份那除了請司法院法務部的機關代表進行說明以外我會再詢問其他的機關要不要做補充的一個說明"},{"start":14854.207,"end":14867.997,"text":"那現在進行發言 發言時間五分鐘請司法院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長主席不好意思我來我可不可以請求 徵求主席的同意在機關開始發言之前我做一個小小的事實質問好 要補充發言是吧好 那來 請 請 請"},{"start":14869.338,"end":14890.609,"text":"很抱歉 因為身為這個司改國事會議第四分組唯一在場的委員我覺得我應該要補充一下這個事實資訊因為我覺得從早上聽下來這件事情感覺起來是重要的我們整個法案的討論 支持的先進絕大多數把它當成是司改國事會議的要求特別在立法理由的說明裡面也這樣講感覺我們司改國事會議好像做了一個結論說應該推動法庭直播"},{"start":14892.91,"end":14913.505,"text":"不過我昨天來之前特別有在做檢視各位可以回頭去看現在如果你找YouTube去找司改國是會第四分組第六次會議的發言它分成兩個部分請大家去看第一部分的大概是在53分50秒左右第二部分大概在3分15秒左右原先這個決議所使用的用語是"},{"start":14914.645,"end":14928.855,"text":"請司法院研擬開放的範圍與條件但是在這兩個段落裡面因為與會的先進跟機關代表都提出同一個疑慮就是你用研擬兩個字代表你決定要做了我只能夠擬定方法"},{"start":14929.355,"end":14956.885,"text":"但當然這是一個可以被討論的議題所以公開討論主管機關都沒有意見但是並不是說你已經決定了之後主管機關只能夠去設計一個直播的方法而已所以我想也許請大家再回頭去看一下這個段落會比較能夠清楚當時委員的意向因為我們現在好像整個把它當成是說這是司改國是會議一個比較強的要求也許我們看過之後會有不一樣的理解我補充以上的資訊"},{"start":14958.743,"end":14983.693,"text":"謝謝不過我倒也樂意看到他們這個其他政黨都變成是蔡英文前總統的追隨者啦但是那個國事會議當初這樣的一個看法倒也不是個別政治人物講了些什麼或者他位高權重要引領這個社會去做改革就一定到最後大家要跟著走中間可能會有所修正也都不一定來接下來我們請王副秘書長發言"},{"start":15000.711,"end":15023.923,"text":"好 那個主席委員還有各位在座那個先進現在已經是中午了 大家午安 大家好那我首先呢 我真的非常感謝貴委員會可以舉辦這一次的那個公聽會在這裡有非常那個睿智的那個思辨那可以那個廣大各界那個意見那司法院的意見呢 就如我們提出的那個書面那我在這裡我要口頭那個回應幾點"},{"start":15025.083,"end":15048.953,"text":"我覺得第一點要強調的是說那個司法院作為法組法的主管機關我們義不容辭的有義務要維護公平審判還有我們要確保每一個進入到法庭的人的訴訟參與者他的正當權益因此106年的司改國是會議"},{"start":15051.064,"end":15078.749,"text":"期间还有之后呢我们针对的那个法庭公播这样子一个议题呢有进行了严谨的那个政策评估那当时呢有委托那个学者进行这个专题研究这个专题研究它范围非常广的我们邀请了那个对于美国法专精的苏凯平林志杰教授对德国法熟悉的林孟奇教授还有那个日本法的"},{"start":15080.331,"end":15100.128,"text":"劉方林、劉英的謝國興教授都進行了一個非常廣泛的外國法還有一個政策的專題研究之後我們召開了學術研討會舉辦了北中南各場的焦點團體的公聽會一直到組成了法規諮詢會議諮詢會議的成員也涵蓋了審檢辯還有專家學者"},{"start":15108.335,"end":15132.778,"text":"焦點團體那歷經了這麼長的一個廣泛跟深入的那個研議之後呢最後我們深刻的認知到法庭直播這個議題呢它涉及到了太多的爭議那最後呢是因為沒有辦法獲至你的利益會大於弊端的這個結論因此呢司法院是很負責的"},{"start":15133.499,"end":15152.466,"text":"就是沒有貿然採行那剛才就是那個蔡元氏當年的委員現在那個組長他在這裡有補充說明就是說當時國事會議他所做的那個結論到底是什麼呢那我現在有把原始稿帶過來其實他最後的結論是要司法院一年之內研議"},{"start":15153.706,"end":15164.414,"text":"是嚴議 他其實不是要就是立刻要那個採刑喔那司法院呢 基於以上的說明呢其實我們是有所為 有所不為就是在經過很嚴謹的一個嚴議之後呢我們貿然 我們不敢貿然的那個採刑喔"},{"start":15170.618,"end":15194.15,"text":"那這裡要特別說呢這絕對不是司法院的一個行政帶墮這是要向大家向公眾就是說明的那第二再來說明的本次這個立法委員呢提出了這一件那個修正案那讓這個法庭公佈了這個議題呢再度的那個熱議可是呢我們看一下那個時空背景和106年107年當時的環境比較呢時至今日"},{"start":15199.733,"end":15215.354,"text":"數位資料傳播還有這個重置那個技術呢都更容易更普及了齁那還有現在這個自媒體盛行蓬勃這個是當年那個不同的那個環境齁那我們再看一下齁"},{"start":15216.315,"end":15230.72,"text":"這些技術層面AI生成技術的發展速度它遠遠超過了趣味驗真技術的精進這個也是我們法院端現在面臨就是這種證據調查一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":15232.162,"end":15255.68,"text":"好 那所以以至於法庭公佈它可能產生的弊病跟疑慮更甚以往那這一次那個修正案它進覆二讀之後它沒有辦法在立法院的委員會中獲得充分的討論我必須說這很可惜的但是在草案提出之後"},{"start":15257.13,"end":15280.24,"text":"一個月來包括了法官檢察官律師等的司法實務工作者婦女兒少依賴司法那個捍衛權益的弱勢團體還有像法醫學會等協助法院發現真實的鑑定人團體還有更多的這個法律專家學者所組成的那個學會"},{"start":15281.38,"end":15296.099,"text":"以及促進人權團體保障的這個團體跟個人呢都紛紛的對這一次那個提案表達什麼表達反對保留或者是要求暫緩立法的立場那我們必須說齁"},{"start":15297.781,"end":15323.6,"text":"這個是我從事司法工作三十幾年來呢歷來就是很少看到司法制度在立法程序中呢少見獲得強大的那個共識拜託給我一點時間這我們司法院很少機會可以講話那今天那個立法院召開公聽會呢我們聆聽了各方的專家學者的那個的意見呢我發現大家對於那個法庭直播呢有以下高度疑慮第一點呢它會影響證人鑑定人"},{"start":15324.761,"end":15342.012,"text":"到庭作證的意願那這個有害真實發現第二點是訴訟輿論這會危及到公平審判第三點他會過度的侵犯法庭參與者的隱私權人格權但是但是欠缺了一個核限性的基礎第四個呢"},{"start":15343.103,"end":15369.421,"text":"很重要的公開播送的資訊呢它是不可迴逆的出去了永久就是出去了那可是目前呢它沒有那個缺乏有效跟妥善的那個管制跟救濟的那個機制換言之從106年私改國事會議召開以來呢各界對於法庭公播的爭議跟疑慮呢到現在還是存在沒有一個合理的一個那個解決"},{"start":15370.442,"end":15397.725,"text":"那再次重申 司法院作為法律的主責機關我們有責任提出一個良善的司法給付當然要審慎的對待各界對於貿然採行法庭公佈的這些疑慮訴求者認為說這個可以促進司法的公開透明跟獲得監督但是剛才的先進也都有提到了現行法上已經有這麼多的"},{"start":15399.146,"end":15415.954,"text":"法庭公開、旁聽、全程錄音、裁判書公開甚至於現在也採行了國民參審這麼多的機制都已經可以達到相同的目的了那我們看看其他先進國家他們採行這個目的也是用公開審判來作為確保司法公開的做法我們和其他先進國家是並無二致的"},{"start":15425.618,"end":15451.195,"text":"那多數的先進國家呢多數也都是不允許法庭公播的基於以上理由呢司法院現階段呢是沒有辦法贊成法庭公播而且對於倉促立法呢我們必須表達很深切的那個憂慮齁那最後呢也敬請立法院呢可以暫緩審議這一次法庭公播修法的提案以上 敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":15455.315,"end":15464.717,"text":"謝謝王副秘書長接下來我們請法務部徐政次來發言主席各位學者專家委員大家午安"},{"start":15482.011,"end":15508.706,"text":"知情權是我們不管是司法院或者是法務部其實我們也一直在維護也在保護的一個權利各項的制度也是朝這個方向在改進設計公開審理其實就是現行制度剛才王副秘書長講得非常的清楚以現有的裁判書的公開審理的制度跟延伸法庭的設計還有國民法官法庭"},{"start":15509.346,"end":15527.424,"text":"我想這些設計無非就是要讓民眾有知悉這個審判過程的一些機會但是一個制度的推我們要推到什麼程度公開播送法庭的整個過程也是一個方式"},{"start":15528.086,"end":15547.278,"text":"但是呢 他推的過程 推到這個極致讓民眾可以一杯啤酒在家裡的客廳就可以直接看法庭上證人被嫁禿結吻這個也是一個方式但是我們要深深地去感受我們要付出怎麼樣的代價"},{"start":15549.571,"end":15577.323,"text":"我們可不可以因為要把它推到極致對於社會所付出來的代價我們都不管它我想這是一個政策你訂一個需要考慮的地方那剛才王副秘書長對於這一個公開播送的這部分呢他有提出會有四點影響我可以在此再重申第一個就是一定會影響到事實發現我們當檢察官的要求證人來作證"},{"start":15578.243,"end":15595.786,"text":"那是用拜託跟告證的證人一般來講不太願意作證來指出這個被告的犯行今天如果你把他送到我們的法庭還要直播我相信所有的證人都不願意來就算來了他也會說我不記得"},{"start":15597.388,"end":15612.5,"text":"鑑定人 剛才有委員也提到醫師鑑定的部分現在光是居民 家戶結婚所有的人都退卻 不願意當鑑定人你今天叫這些醫生來接受直播我相信 這又是我們另外一個難題我們"},{"start":15615.358,"end":15638.537,"text":"我們對這個部分就非常非常的擔心所以這些相關的法庭的參與者對於真實他不願意講出來的時候對於我們整個真實的發現絕對是一個很大的困難那第二個是公民審辦剛才王副院長也特別提到所有我們參與這一個法庭活動的人如果還要承受直播所帶來的壓力的話"},{"start":15640.126,"end":15668.341,"text":"有一些新政的行程或許會受到影響這已經剝奪了被告的公平審判的權利第三個是對於訴訟參與者的基本權的一個侵害我們都知道被告有無罪推定原則那今天就很擔心這個案子到公告法庭的時候所有的輿論都認為他是有罪的他再怎麼講每天網路上所播出的內容都是他這個人罪大惡極"},{"start":15670.049,"end":15685.996,"text":"那有一天他得到一個無罪判決我相信全國的人都不相信他是無罪的他怎麼說都沒有用因為他已經被公審了那今天換一個角度來看如果他今天是有罪的因為大家很多委員提出來都是有罪的案例"},{"start":15686.696,"end":15712.697,"text":"他是有罪的那我們要知道更生啊我們要讓他重新回歸社會啊可是你今天都已經把他標籤化了他如何回歸社會這個紀錄會一輩子跟著他所以這個對他人權是一定有傷害更何況所有參與的人的隱私權都會被攤出來這個對於憲法保障的基本人權是有妨礙的第四個也是國事會議召集人他有講到一個說"},{"start":15714.238,"end":15722.624,"text":"公開播送內容資訊是必要的但是他有講一句話不曉得各位有沒有聽到他說剩下的就是安全機制的部分"},{"start":15724.215,"end":15744.194,"text":"對 這就是我們最擔心的地方 安全機制的部分這個一公播出去 我們完全沒有辦法去防止人家會剪輯或者是誤導瞬間就傳播出去 輿論的風向 或者是將來惡意的來使用這些我們完全沒有辦法去防止 所以"},{"start":15745.253,"end":15766.112,"text":"今天要採用這樣的制度一定要審慎的考慮它所帶來的一個嚴重的社會成本所以那我們本部的態度就是希望能夠權衡各種權力的保護以及制度的風險我想今天文法官也講得很清楚這個有關於這個風險來仔細的來觀察評估以上"},{"start":15772.919,"end":15787.289,"text":"好 謝謝徐市長那其實現在來看的話這也盡到尾聲了以現在目前實務的狀況因為我們常常說公判庭公判庭就是公開的審判程序"},{"start":15788.55,"end":15808.93,"text":"那判決書判下去當然會公開啊那你法庭上當然會留下這個整個錄音錄影的一個記錄啊那但是呢今天從國會裡面的角度他可能比較著重於就是說民眾比較知的權利啦如果透過公眾去這樣一個一個監督"},{"start":15810.583,"end":15838.099,"text":"民調很難去看說這個讓民眾說很這個去講得很清楚說做這份民調該有數據正反疑慮呈現給這個接到電話的人所以有時候做出來的民調那當然就是會一面倒但是這些也都值得參考的一個依據有一些疑慮我最後我不得不講在立法院所講的這些我都很怕會有誤導"},{"start":15839.58,"end":15853.176,"text":"一個訴訟尤其是社會重大矚目的訴訟如果都是在做整個媒體上的訴求或者公眾的一個訴求而沒有著墨在法庭上的實際行動的話"},{"start":15855.018,"end":15880.843,"text":"我都覺得這種官司都常常會莫名其妙不夠專業的人才會這樣子以上就讓大家去做一個參考啦剛剛徐次也提到了這些負面的影響其實我還會覺得最大的負面影響就是我們現在的國民法官國民法官在那裡 大家的妹子也是都有壓力所以這些像比如說你那些人看到電視之後"},{"start":15882.663,"end":15899.889,"text":"你國民法官喔 我不知道那個身份有時候當然去的人他就不怕啦但是畢竟你用公開播送的方式然後到最後又被那個表情也好片段的發言前面講了一段後面也許他有更正可是就切前面那一段"},{"start":15900.809,"end":15919.326,"text":"這個也都麻煩那不管如何啦那今天我是很盡力啦本來是台灣民眾黨這一份已經敬負惡毒了那我們是剛好是翁小玲委員這一份剛好在立法理由說明裡面就講到這個透明性的一個問題我是抓這一句來"},{"start":15920.767,"end":15930.43,"text":"讓整個法庭公開播送的部分啊這個到底是不是有這個透明性的問題這個疑慮來召開這一場公聽會否則啊 近乎二讀啦我連召開公聽會的機會都沒有啊那當然到朝野協商的時候我們再來看看啦再來看看就看看各位今天的學者專家的寶貴意見有沒有受到其他政黨的一個尊重來"},{"start":15951.264,"end":15955.228,"text":"請問其他的列席的各機關有沒有需要再做補充說明今天公聽會的發言我們就到此告一個段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向來提供很多的寶貴的意見"},{"start":15973.783,"end":15998.73,"text":"今天各位所有的發言內容跟書面的意見以及委員審發會 環國昌等所提的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並製成公聽會的一個報告送交本院全體委員及本日出席人員的一個參考鄭文榮理事長 各位有什麼意見嗎我補充兩句 就是說"},{"start":16000.29,"end":16025.1,"text":"這個立法院直播是蘇嘉全院長任內推動的我要特別讚許他第二個就是說剛剛有提到議論審判其實台灣議論審判沒有好好去討論過怎麼解決其實議論審判在美國的1807年的Alan Blunt的案子就開始John Marshall最高法院的大法官就已經裁決也有一套的議論審判的處理方法"},{"start":16025.62,"end":16052.258,"text":"但是今天我完全沒有看到有學者專家去解決所謂的輿論審判那希望以後大院可以在針對輿論審判的部分來做一個公聽或什麼來討論 謝謝好 謝謝我希望我也有機會來請更多的學者專家來表達意見那我們本次的公聽會我們就到此結束謝謝大家 現在散會扁桶扁桶 扁桶快點發下去 讓人家來開花扁桶都沒紅"},{"start":16055.544,"end":16055.564,"text":"嘿 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}