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我今天當我們的題目是從美伊戰爭裡面要學一些教訓事實上在過去這一年大概這兩三年不管是俄烏戰爭甚至於在其他的地方發生了大小軍事衝突其實有相當多值得台灣借鏡的比方說委內瑞拉啦比方說以色列跟周邊國家的衝突啦樣態不一樣那裡面有一個特徵就是"},{"start":42.759,"end":64.597,"text":"在現在戰場上我們因應的狀態跟我們從二戰、越戰、韓戰學到的經驗已經完全不一樣了如果這思維沒有改變坦白講軍事裝備在手上運用會變成是事倍功半我第一個先請教我剛才看到幾位同仁也問到了這個Shahid這一個見證者沙西德"},{"start":66.232,"end":84.401,"text":"非常便宜那一台大概不到一百萬台幣那他打中了當時全世界大概就四座鋪路爪雷達台灣有一座最早期只有兩座北美防空司令部再來就台灣那打中這個鋪路爪那第一個他為什麼會打到他"},{"start":85.615,"end":104.99,"text":"我不曉得我們國防部有沒有研究就是說這種高單價極具戰略價值的重要設施面對這種低廉的甚至他坦白講我們任何的飛彈防空要去打他都不划算的殺死了而且速度非常慢為什麼會打中尤其是在美軍的防禦體系下"},{"start":106.578,"end":132.931,"text":"你們有沒有研究原因這個部分因為它要連用廉價的這個武器要打中這個昂貴的因為這個部分看起來它是一個固定設施所以掀起的一個情報的蒐集跟定位是最重要的一件事情也是確定我們都知道這種固定設施第一級都會打會用飛彈打極音速飛彈來打現在是一個時速大概50公里的慢速的無人機那個聲音"},{"start":136.172,"end":149.531,"text":"是像那個摩托車把消音器拔掉的聲音喔很大喔它怎麼打中的我們空軍有沒有研究我們相關單位有沒有研究就是說它是怎麼打中的他山之石阿要學阿"},{"start":153.752,"end":176.844,"text":"這跟您報告 至於他怎麼打中這個部分 我們目前沒有太多的情質但是就我們自己本身的雷達陣地來講 樂山雷達陣地來講他是結合周邊的冰火力我今天為什麼要問第一題要問這一題人家在波斯灣的周邊的冰火力比我們還密集"},{"start":178.364,"end":193.677,"text":"因為這個資訊不夠清楚所以說我們不清楚但是他們的愛國者防空營不夠還把日本跟韓國的調過去了我不知道這樣講對不對沙西德非常廉價結果俄羅斯拿去在烏克蘭戰場用還造成了"},{"start":195.478,"end":220.53,"text":"他不準但他打中了很多電啊發電廠一些設施這一次在伊朗戰爭裡面後來發現我看了一些軍事專家的研究第一個沙西德他的速度慢慢到我們在正常的雷達系統會把他過濾掉這是否為真是這個部分就是要按照情資來做一個設定因為我們一般設定"},{"start":222.281,"end":239.447,"text":"那個波段不管遠程的雷達它的波段就長嘛短程的雷達波段就比較密集嘛然後呢為了太多的雜訊我要把它過濾掉所以以前無人機有時候會被過濾掉因為小後來發現速度也是一個因素在一定速度以下"},{"start":240.567,"end":261.723,"text":"雷達的電腦會自動把它過濾認為這是雜波是不是有這個情形我們會根據目標的速度它的大小我們都會做不同的設定所以這麻煩啦因為它速度慢本來是缺點直升機用機槍就打得了但是它現在因為速度慢我們先進的雷達有時候就把它濾掉了"},{"start":262.583,"end":285.432,"text":"我們除了這個雷達以外我們在陣地裡面都有加裝的這個GPS干擾器所以說它越慢其實對它的影響程度會越大它設定它是program它設定的所以第一個原因是因為它速度這個慢速所以便宜它引擎很爛嘛50匹馬力而已因為慢速因為爛反而可以躲過我們先進雷達這是一個第二個"},{"start":286.232,"end":314.125,"text":"也是因為爛啊俄羅斯用的沙西德有塑膠的有複合材料的有木頭的耶所以對雷達波來講它的穿透性變成比較好不會打回來所以這第二個原因那中國其實有學到一大堆這些低廉低價的無人機這種油彈炸藥比我們的其他的我們還要去做反輻射的其實更貴這種油彈炸藥量大又便宜那第三個它是設定好它可以飛很遠"},{"start":315.356,"end":328.917,"text":"所以他在那邊他program之後就事後不理了關你打到什麼就打就好去也不用回來所以這種形態的攻擊我現在只問我們國防部我們現在有沒有能力看得見就是目獲第二個有沒有能力處理它"},{"start":331.822,"end":346.032,"text":"報委員 情報次長這邊再跟委員報告因為目前我們伊朗的這個戰事還正在進行當中那有關於剛剛委員所提到的那些在系統上面可能會"},{"start":347.567,"end":370.179,"text":"造成的這些效應還有一些細部的工程上面的這些我想跟那天美國國防部他在記者會的時候曾經有提建議過我們大家在討論的時候因為這些目前戰爭正在進行當中可能我們也不太適合在這邊跟委員把我們這邊所掌握到的內容我不問你們有沒有從美方那邊獲得一些"},{"start":371.53,"end":396.212,"text":"意見或者資訊的交流這個絕對有這個我們都是對這一個事件因為我們是大概全世界四座六座使用這個但我現在不是針對普魯爪雷達有很多高單價比方說沙西的這種慢速又便宜他很容易發動飽和攻擊的針對民用的關鍵基礎設施重要的軍事設施如果我們雷達他看見反而好難啊"},{"start":397.333,"end":420.927,"text":"他用機槍就可以打下來 看見反而好藍他被綠掉了 反而看不見這是一個問題 我要提醒我們國防部這一種形態就是新的戰場態勢我們以前都研究越先進的 逆中的 高速的這種量工的AutoBike你看不到他反而麻煩那他量很大 他就設定他飛2000公里 他會東繞西繞慢慢飛過來所以我進到下一個"},{"start":422.503,"end":449.999,"text":"我看到你們的這次檢討報告說要建構台灣之盾來因應類似伊朗這樣的情形那我們台灣之盾其實就三個概念第一個是層層攔截70公里100公里40公里一直到最近空的防禦層層攔截第二個其實很重要是跨系統整合我們目前為止國造的天宮系列跟美歸的愛國者其實互相是"},{"start":450.953,"end":475.653,"text":"要經過JOCC對話 他互相是不能講話的你看到的我看不到 然後你要打的我不知道所以會造成重複打擊也好 或者反應時間會變慢所以跨系統整合 這也是大家要談這個IBCS的原因第三個 其實還有一個重點 彈藥的存量你的彈藥存量 你的系統再好 彈打完了"},{"start":476.516,"end":495.351,"text":"你就要減量只針對高價值保護其他就讓他過吧會變這個情形所以我就這三點請教目前台灣之盾的核心的預算當然是在我們國防特別預算的特別條例裡面在這裡面有關層層攔截你們認為我們台灣最需要補強的是哪一層"},{"start":496.578,"end":521.973,"text":"目前最缺的是哪一層現在整個中層跟高層的這個防禦的部分目前來看能夠因應有關共軍的一個防空攻擊跟威脅看起來是沒有問題中高層能力沒有問題 彈量夠不夠彈量目前我們後續會持續的在增強跟控制當中能力夠我就要問彈量嘛好那再來"},{"start":522.873,"end":548.71,"text":"那第二部分就是目前來看對於有關第一層應該是講說中第一層的防禦尤其是它的原火營的威脅來說是我們後續會放在整個藍安捷上面一個研討的一個重點原火是最頭痛的它貼地表加上海洋地球曲率海洋的閘波速度又快然後它對面有三個鋁"},{"start":550.069,"end":562.543,"text":"所以原火對台灣來講其實是破壞性威脅性很大所以目前在台灣之盾裡面針對中共原火那幾個部署在我們海峽當面的你們在台灣之盾裡面設計的是什麼東西要來應處這一塊"},{"start":564.963,"end":588.051,"text":"目前我們規劃就是剛剛在報告當中就是一個希望執行能夠遠程火箭彈攔截低成本的防空武器那這個研討因為這個系統還在研發當中所以我講也不適合在研發的東西有的我聽20年都還在研發目前已經有初步的一個多久可以看到東西你們是研發還是外購"},{"start":589.504,"end":606.185,"text":"還是合作我們有自行研發也有評估國外相關的廠商同步來進行當中是不是有現有的裝備可以符合我們的需求但是跟我們台灣合作生產是不是這個模式否則你們從零到開始研發好賣乎啊"},{"start":607.046,"end":633.622,"text":"其實現在已經有初步的研究的成果就是天空試行的部分已經有一些天空試行是中高空的耶 我現在講原火耶它現在因為試行的部分它同時也可以因應相關原火低成本的那個李思祥 李院長出來了就是說針對原火你們在台灣製鈍裡面到底設計在層層的哪一層裡面針對原火我們有專門的一型低成本彈藥來執行攔截有方案了嗎有實測過了嗎"},{"start":635.287,"end":650.529,"text":"明年明年才實測嘛這是我們自己研發的還是台美合作的自己研發的技術都是我們自己的那接下來就討論到蛋的量的問題這也就是我們在特別預算特別條例裡面有一塊"},{"start":651.872,"end":677.889,"text":"當然我們在野黨的朋友有把他拿掉就在地生產這一塊這裡面不只是無人機反無人機其實很多彈藥我們的戰備需求的眾生要在台灣合作生產這一塊其實很重要你在好的系統愛國者打完了烏克蘭現在剩一堆載台啊沒有彈啊你沒有用啊你知道讓他過去嘛所以我的意思說我們的彈藥量就你們目前的評估很簡單一個回答現況喔夠還是不夠"},{"start":683.378,"end":702.008,"text":"就台灣之盾這個專案來講我們目前的彈的量夠還是不夠就剛剛的報告我們要建構低中高三層那剛剛盧委員所說我們對於遠程火箭的防禦能量是現在積極要去籌貨因為就我們在做敵情上的所以彈量目前現況是不夠的是所以需要積極的去籌貨現況是不夠的你們計畫是用採購還是在台生產"},{"start":705.87,"end":730.286,"text":"當然現在是希望能夠多元途徑去獲得我接受有些外購有的在台生產有互相互為備援這我接受但我們台灣生產這塊過去其實蠻缺的啦日本都已經技術合作生產愛國者飛彈了嘛就是彈藥有很多種像現在155、155它是可以打無人機的還打蠻準的但平時不能用"},{"start":731.187,"end":750.493,"text":"硬砂在平時你打出去落點在哪裡很麻煩我們平時大概用軟砂那軟硬砂之間有個灰色地帶是雷射大概是要組成這樣的網絡所以我剛才問的問題是現況的彈你們剛才評估是不夠那後續這些彈要縱深的取得是在台生產要不要增加這一塊"},{"start":753.528,"end":767.973,"text":"我是侯志志市長向委員報告針對於我們國內沒有產能或是我們國內產能不足的部分我們是運用特別預算採軍購跟商購並行的方式那另外在明年這個特別預算過以後我們針對於這個軍備局"},{"start":769.694,"end":786.547,"text":"特別有開14條的生產線包含各式武器彈藥以及我的火炸藥的部分未來我們也希望在我們國內產能的部分能以最大量來生產包含這一次韓國政府輸出許可卡住其實我們有能力的話還是要自己做所以我還是希望國防跟國家安全其實沒有什麼黨派的問題"},{"start":788.755,"end":818.215,"text":"我們對美採購當然這個重要因為那是先進裝備但是建立台灣的軍需的供應鏈不管是無人機反無人機彈藥這一些在台台美合作透過八年期的特別預算給予穩定的訂單誘發台灣強大的製造業轉投入這一塊以及我們自己軍工兵工廠能夠提升其實這一塊是整個1.25兆裡面雖然佔比大概三千多億但是其實蠻重要的我們真的希望"},{"start":819.556,"end":841.949,"text":"這個東西真的我再講一次沒有黨派的問題這桌子有四張腳你缺了一隻腳桌子就是歪掉了所以我們特別預算有關國內供應鏈這一塊其實還是要強化那因為我不想站太長時間我兩個題目交給你們事後回答我我在去年提到有關國防大學應該偵涉偵涉我不剝奪現在的偵涉文職副校長"},{"start":843.67,"end":871.396,"text":"讓學術跟學術倫理這一塊能夠有一個來自於學術界的文職副校長因為畢竟在國防大學培養是人才那當時你們回答是三個月內要回答我到目前已經超過時間還沒有答案你們現在就不用回答再來就是有關這一個二月底三月上旬共機的靜默期你們目前有沒有什麼評估這個簡單一句回答就好你們對於共機有一段時間特別是"},{"start":872.677,"end":889.522,"text":"美國對伊朗動武的時候共機有一段時間就不見了那最近又有出現的時候當然比較遺憾啦國內有特定媒體是歡欣鼓舞啦那是對台灣的威脅那個靜默期到底是一個對你們來講是一個正向的訊號還是危險的負向訊號"},{"start":891.932,"end":918.673,"text":"包委員您剛剛所提的這個13天的時間我們持續在觀察當然這個時間也發生了很多國際事件包含了剛剛您所提到國際事件中國內部也有事件是的那也在兩會期間那所以在這個時間點我們只能跟委員報告我們會持續在密註後續的一些那秦釋士這邊把他這13天的靜默期視為正向指標負向指標還是無法判定"},{"start":919.494,"end":937.321,"text":"我還是建議跟您報告我們是不是可以把這個指標性的正向或負向保留到後面我們有私下的機會再跟您做報告基於國家利益我尊重保密但是這個指標其實眾說紛紜在適當的時候讓國人知道其實是必要的好不好好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:20:54+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:20:55.790500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩副部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T10:20:55.790500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:20:57.581000+08:00","text":"請副部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:20:57.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:20:57.781000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:21:08.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:21:08.531000+08:00","text":"副部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:21:08.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:21:13.553000+08:00","text":"今天我們的題目是從美伊戰爭裡面要學一些教訓。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:21:13.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:21:51.571000+08:00","text":"事實上，在過去大概這兩三年，不管是俄烏戰爭，甚至於在其他地方發生的大小軍事衝突，其實有相當多值得臺灣借鏡的，比方委內瑞拉、比方以色列和周邊國家的衝突，樣態不一樣，但裡面都有一個特徵，就是在現在戰場上我們因應的狀態跟我們從二戰、越戰、韓戰學到的經驗已經完全不一樣了，如果這個思維沒有改變，坦白講，軍事裝備在手上運用會變成是事倍功半。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:21:52.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:22:13.678000+08:00","text":"我第一個先請教，剛才看到幾位同仁也問到了，Shahed（見證者、沙希德）非常便宜，1臺大概不到100萬臺幣，它打中了鋪路爪雷達（PAVE PAWS），當時全世界大概只有4座，臺灣有1座，最早期只有2座，在北美防空司令部，再來就是臺灣。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:22:16.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:22:18.160000+08:00","text":"第一個，它為什麼會打到鋪路爪？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:22:19.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:22:36.468000+08:00","text":"我不曉得我們國防部有沒有研究，就是這種高單價、極具戰略價值的重要設施面對這種低廉的，坦白講，用任何飛彈、防空飛彈去打它（沙希德）都不划算的，而且它速度非常慢，為什麼會打中？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:22:37.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:22:41.318000+08:00","text":"尤其那是在美軍的防禦體系下，你們有沒有研究原因？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:22:42.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:22:56.225000+08:00","text":"他用這個廉價的武器要打中這個昂貴的設施，這個部分看起來，因為它是一個固定設施，所以先期的情報蒐集和定位是最重要的一件事情，也就是確定……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:22:56.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:15.960000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們都知道，這種固定設施，第一級的，都會打，會用飛彈打，用極音速飛彈來打，現在這是一個時速大概50公里的慢速無人機，那個聲音是像摩托車把消音器拔掉的聲音，很大聲，它怎麼打中的？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:18.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:19.205000+08:00","text":"我們空軍有沒有研究？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:19.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:20.226000+08:00","text":"我們相關單位有沒有研究？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:20.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:23.270000+08:00","text":"就是它是怎麼打中的，他山之石要學啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:23.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:25.511000+08:00","text":"參謀長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:25.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:27.752000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:27.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:41.599000+08:00","text":"我是空軍參謀長，跟您報告，至於它怎麼打中這個部分，我們目前沒有太多情資，但是就我們自己本身的雷達陣地來講，就樂山雷達陣地來講，它是結合周邊的兵火力，它有……","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:43.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:45.681000+08:00","text":"我今天為什麼第一題要問這一題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:45.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:50.824000+08:00","text":"人家在波斯灣周邊的兵火力比我們還密集啊！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:52.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:55.427000+08:00","text":"因為這個資訊不夠清楚，所以我們不清楚，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:23:55.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:23:59.810000+08:00","text":"他們的愛國者防空營不夠，還把日本和韓國的調過去了。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:24:01.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:24:29.447000+08:00","text":"我不知道這樣講對不對，沙希德非常廉價，結果俄羅斯拿去在烏克蘭戰場用，還造成了破壞，它不準，但它打中了發電廠一些設施，這一次在伊朗戰爭裡面後來發現，我看了一些軍事專家在研究，第一個、沙希德的速度慢，慢到在正常的雷達系統會把它過濾掉，這是否為真？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:24:30.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:24:33.749000+08:00","text":"是，這個部分就是要按照情資來做設定……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:24:33.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:24:58.590000+08:00","text":"因為我們一般的設定，以波段來講，遠程雷達的波段就長，短程雷達的波段就比較密集，為了太多雜訊要過濾掉，所以以前無人機有時候會被過濾掉，因為它小，後來發現速度也是一個因素，在一定速度以下，雷達的電腦會自動把它過濾，認為這是雜波，是不是有這個情形？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:24:59.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:05.055000+08:00","text":"是，是有這個情形，我們都會根據目標的速度、大小做不同的設定……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:05.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:15.703000+08:00","text":"所以這個麻煩了，就是它速度慢本來是缺點，直升機用機槍就打得了了，但是它現在因為速度慢，我們的先進雷達有時候就把它濾掉了、ignore。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:16.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:26.087000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們除了雷達以外，在陣地裡面都有加裝GPS干擾器，所以它越慢，其實對它的影響程度會越大。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:26.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:27.947000+08:00","text":"沒有，它是有program設定的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:28.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:39.292000+08:00","text":"所以第一個原因是因為它的速度，它慢速，所以便宜，它的引擎很爛，50匹馬力而已，因為慢速、因為爛，反而可以躲過我們的先進雷達，這是第一個。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:39.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:25:52.718000+08:00","text":"第二個，也是因為爛，俄羅斯用的沙希德有塑膠的、有複合材料的、有木頭的，對雷達波來講，它的穿透性變成比較好，不會打回來，所以這是第二個原因。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:25:53.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:26:05.423000+08:00","text":"中國其實有學到一大堆這些低廉、低價的無人機，這種遊蕩彈藥比起我們其他的，我們還要去做反輻射的那些其實更貴，這種遊蕩彈藥量大又便宜。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:26:06.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:26:14.084000+08:00","text":"第三個，它是設定好的，它可以飛很遠，所以他program設定之後就射後不理了，管它打到什麼，有打就好，去了也不用回來。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:26:14.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:26:21.676000+08:00","text":"這一種型態的攻擊，我現在只問國防部，我們現在有沒有能力看得見，也就是目獲？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:26:21.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:26:22.897000+08:00","text":"第二個，有沒有能力處理它？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:26:25.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:26:29.144000+08:00","text":"報告委員，情報次長在這邊跟委員報告。請說。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:26:29.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:00.437000+08:00","text":"因為目前伊朗的這個戰事還在進行當中，有關於剛剛委員所提到的在系統上面可能會造成的效應，還有一些細部工程上面的，我想跟那天美國國防部在記者會的時候曾經建議過我們大家在討論的時候可以討論相關……但因為目前戰爭正在進行當中，可能我們也不太適合在這邊跟委員把我們所掌握到的來做……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:00.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:07.352000+08:00","text":"好，內容我不問，你們有沒有從美方那邊獲得一些意見或者資訊的交流？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:08.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:09.734000+08:00","text":"這個絕對有，這個我們都是在……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:09.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:11.235000+08:00","text":"針對這個事件。是的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:11.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:36.236000+08:00","text":"現在全世界大概有4座還是6座使用這個，但我現在不是針對鋪路爪雷達，有很多高單價的，但沙希德這種慢速又便宜的，它很容易發動飽和攻擊，針對民用的關鍵基礎設施、重要的軍事設施，如果我們的雷達看見它，反而好攔，用機槍就可以打下來，看見反而好攔，但它卻被濾掉了，反而看不見，這是一個問題。","quality":0.813},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:36.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:27:53.286000+08:00","text":"我要提醒我們國防部，這一種型態就是新的戰場態勢，我們以前都研究越先進的、匿蹤的、高速的，這種兩光的「摩托車」，你看不到它，反而麻煩，但它量很大，甚至就設定飛2,000公里，它可以東繞西繞，慢慢飛過來。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:27:53.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:28:03.627000+08:00","text":"所以我進到下一個題目，我看到你們這一次的檢討報告說要建構臺灣之盾，來因應類似伊朗這樣的情形。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:28:04.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:28:54.339000+08:00","text":"我們臺灣之盾其實就三個概念：第一個是層層攔截，100公里、70公里、40公里，一直到最近空的防禦，層層攔截；第二個，很重要的是跨系統整合，目前為止我們國造的天弓系列和美規的愛國者互相是要經過JOCC對話的，它們互相是不能講話的，你看到的我看不到，你要打的我不知道，會造成重複打擊，或者反應時間會變慢，所以要跨系統整合，這也是大家要談IBCS的原因；第三個，還有一個重點，彈藥的存量，系統再好，彈藥打完了，就要減量，只針對高價值保護，其他就讓它過吧！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:28:55.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:28:55.520000+08:00","text":"會變成這個情形。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:28:56.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:28:57.101000+08:00","text":"所以我就這三點請教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:28:57.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:09.351000+08:00","text":"目前臺灣之盾的核心預算當然是在國防特別預算的特別條例裡面，在這裡面，有關層層攔截，你們認為臺灣最需要補強的是哪一層？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:10.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:12.399000+08:00","text":"最缺的是哪一層？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:12.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:25.186000+08:00","text":"目前來看，整個中層和高層的防禦部分能夠因應共軍的防空攻擊和威脅，看起來是沒有問題……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:25.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:28.208000+08:00","text":"中、高層能力沒有問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:28.208000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:29.208000+08:00","text":"對，現在來看，是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:28.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:29.269000+08:00","text":"彈量夠不夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:29.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:32.110000+08:00","text":"彈量的部分，我們後續會持續再增強和購置……","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:33.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:34.432000+08:00","text":"能力夠，我就要問彈量……對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:35.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:35.973000+08:00","text":"好，再來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:37.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:53.885000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，目前來看，有關第一層，應該是說中、低層的防禦，尤其他遠火營的威脅，是我們後續會放在整個攔截上面一個研討的重點。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:54.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:29:55.065000+08:00","text":"遠火是最頭痛的……是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:29:56.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:07.233000+08:00","text":"它貼地表，加上地球曲率、海洋的雜波，速度又快，然後它對面有三個旅，所以遠火對臺灣來講其實破壞性、威脅性很大。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:07.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:16.543000+08:00","text":"目前針對中共遠火那幾個部署在我們海峽當面的，在臺灣之盾裡面，你們設計的是什麼要來應處這一塊？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:18.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:34.208000+08:00","text":"目前我們的規劃在剛剛的報告中有提到，就是針對遠程火箭的低成本彈藥執行攔截的防空武器，因為這個系統還在研發當中，所以我想也不適合在這邊……","quality":0.635},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:34.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:37.749000+08:00","text":"你們研發的東西有的我聽了20年都還在研發。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:37.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:39.850000+08:00","text":"目前已經有初步的一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:39.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:40.990000+08:00","text":"多久可以看到東西？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:41.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:43.845000+08:00","text":"你們是研發還是外購，還是合作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:44.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:50.253000+08:00","text":"我們有自行研發，也有評估國外相關廠商，同步進行當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:50.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:57.302000+08:00","text":"是不是有現有的裝備可以符合我們的需求，但是跟我們臺灣合作生產，是不是這個模式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:30:57.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:30:59.705000+08:00","text":"否則你們從零到開始研發來不及了。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:01.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:05.029000+08:00","text":"其實現在已經有初步的研究成果，就是天弓四型的部分已經有一些……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:05.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:06.649000+08:00","text":"天弓四型是中高空的，我現在講的是遠火。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:08.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:13.814000+08:00","text":"因為四型的部分同時也可以因應相關遠火低成本的……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:19.917000+08:00","text":"李世強李院長也上來了，針對遠火，你們在臺灣之盾裡面到底設計在層層的哪一層裡面？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:22.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:25.561000+08:00","text":"針對遠火，我們有專門的一型低成本彈藥來執行攔截。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:25.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:26.882000+08:00","text":"有方案了嗎？有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:27.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:29.447000+08:00","text":"實測過了嗎？明年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:30.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:31.009000+08:00","text":"明年才實測嘛。是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:31.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:34.014000+08:00","text":"這是我們自己研發的還是臺美合作的","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:34.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:35.456000+08:00","text":"自己研發的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:35.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:31:36.678000+08:00","text":"自己研發的，技術都是我們自己的？是。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:31:38.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:05.004000+08:00","text":"接下來就討論到彈藥量的問題，這也就是我們在特別預算、特別條例裡面有一塊，當然我們在野黨的朋友有把它拿掉，也就是在地生產這個部分，這裡面不只是無人機、反無人機，其實很多我們戰備需求的彈藥縱深要在臺灣合作生產，這一塊其實很重要，再好的系統，愛國者打完了，烏克蘭現在剩一堆載臺，沒有彈沒有用啊，只好讓它過去。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:05.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:11.889000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，就你們目前的評估，以現況而言，我們的彈藥量夠還是不夠？","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:17.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:21.080000+08:00","text":"很簡單的回答，就臺灣之盾這個專案來講，我們目前彈的量是夠還是不夠？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"連次長志威","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:21.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:31.826000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是作戰室次長，就剛剛的報告，我們要建構低、中、高三層，如剛剛委員所說，我們對於遠程火箭的防禦能量是現在積極要去籌獲的，因為就我們在做敵情上的……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:31.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:33.826000+08:00","text":"所以彈量目前現況是不夠的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"連次長志威","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:34.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:35.567000+08:00","text":"是，所以需要積極地去……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:35.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:36.008000+08:00","text":"現況是不夠的，你們計畫是用採購還是在臺生產？","quality":1},{"speaker":"連次長志威","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:39.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:32:43.753000+08:00","text":"當然現在是希望能夠以多元途徑去獲得。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:32:44.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:14.950000+08:00","text":"我接受，就是有些外購、有的在臺生產，互為備援，這個我接受，但在臺灣生產這一塊過去其實滿缺的，日本都已經技術合作生產愛國者飛彈了，就是說彈藥有很多種，像現在155公厘跟105公厘的，它是可以打無人機，還打滿準的，但平時不能用，在平時，硬殺你打出去落點在哪裡，很麻煩，我們平時大概要用軟殺，而軟、硬殺之間有個灰色地帶是雷射，大概是要組成這樣的網絡。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:14.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:24.493000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才問的問題是，你們剛才評估現況的彈是不夠，那後續這些彈藥縱深的取得是否在臺生產，要不要增加這一塊？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:27.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:28.488000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是後次室次長。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:28.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:37.092000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，針對我們國內沒有產能或是國內產能不足的部分，我們是運用特別預算，採軍購跟商購並行的方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:37.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:38.852000+08:00","text":"那是對外嘛。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:38.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:52.341000+08:00","text":"對，另外，特別預算通過之後，我們軍備局特別有開14條的生產線，包含各式武器彈藥以及火炸藥的部分，未來我們也希望國內產能能夠以最大量來生產。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:52.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:33:56.844000+08:00","text":"包含這一次我們看到韓國政府輸出許可卡住，所以我們有能力的話還是要自己做。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:33:59.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:34:31.494000+08:00","text":"國防跟國家安全其實沒有什麼黨派的問題，我們對美採購當然重要，因為那是先進裝備，但是建立臺灣軍需的供應鏈，不管是無人機、反無人機、彈藥，這部分的臺美合作，透過八年期的特別預算給予穩定訂單，誘發臺灣強大的製造業轉投入這一塊，以及讓我們自己的兵工廠能夠提升，這部分在整個1.25兆裡面雖然占比大概只有三千多億，但是其實滿重要的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:34:31.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:34:45.063000+08:00","text":"我們真的希望……真的，我再講一次，這個東西沒有黨派的問題，這桌子有四隻腳，你缺了一隻腳，桌子就是歪掉了，所以特別預算有關國內供應鏈這一塊其實還是要強化。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:34:45.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:35:11.153000+08:00","text":"因為我不想占用太長時間，我有兩個題目交給你們，之後再回答我，我在去年提到有關國防大學應該增設文職副校長，我不剝奪現在的，讓學術跟學術倫理的部分能夠有一個來自於學術界的文職副校長，畢竟在國防大學培養的是人才，當時你們是說三個月內要回答我，到目前已經超過時間還沒有答案，你們現在就不用回答。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:35:11.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:35:20.295000+08:00","text":"再來就是有關2月底至3月上旬共機的靜默期，你們目前有沒有什麼評估？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:35:20.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:35:43.522000+08:00","text":"這個簡單一句回答就好了，對於共機有一段時間，特別是美國對伊朗動武的時候，共機有一段時間就不見了，最近又有出現，比較遺憾的是國內有特定媒體歡欣鼓舞，那是對臺灣的威脅，這個靜默期對你們來講是一個正向的訊號還是危險的負向訊號？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:35:46.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:35:56.100000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您剛剛所提的這13天的時間，我們持續在觀察，當然這個時間也發生了很多國際事件，包含了剛剛您所提到的……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:35:56.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:35:57.401000+08:00","text":"國際事件，中國內部也有事件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:35:57.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:04.887000+08:00","text":"是的，也在兩會期間，所以在這個時間點我們只能跟委員報告，我們會持續再密注後續的一些……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:06.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:12.653000+08:00","text":"情次室這邊把這13天的靜默期視為正向指標、負向指標還是無法判定？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:13.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:22.598000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我還是建議是不是可以把這個指標性的正向或負向保留到後面，我們有私下的機會再跟您做報告？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:22.598000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:23.598000+08:00","text":"OK，我接受。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:22.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:31.321000+08:00","text":"基於國家利益，我尊重保密，但是這個指標其實眾說紛紜，在適當的時候讓國人知道其實是必要的，好不好？是。謝謝。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:31.821000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:33.535286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:33.835286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:36.406714+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員質詢，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-03-16T10:36:36.706714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T10:36:39.849571+08:00","text":"接下來請馬文君委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}