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各位大家早現在我們來開會各位議會的貴賓 協責專家我們主管機關大家早安今天本會舉辦我國媒體溢價制度的立法之公聽會"},{"start":1866.249,"end":1880.71,"text":"首先歡迎也謝謝各位寫者專家跟報社團體各媒體的機關代表蒞臨本會各位都寫有技嘉的專長"},{"start":1882.532,"end":1905.704,"text":"藉由這次的公聽會的安排那得以傾聽各位精闢的見解相信一定會有能夠為本院委員提供寶貴的意見在此特別感謝各位對於本次公聽會所做的各種準備以及花言"},{"start":1906.704,"end":1933.329,"text":"我們會即時的把它記錄在今天各位的高見以供本會審查本項法案的參考所以今天公聽會探討的議題提綱為基本也有事先寄發給各位請各位自行參考那現在我來"},{"start":1935.305,"end":1961.462,"text":"我來介紹在場的委員首先介紹我們張祺凱委員非常關心也是媒體人出身那現在我們來介紹寫者專家以及報社團體的代表首先我們來介紹王立達教授"},{"start":1962.603,"end":1987.193,"text":"還沒有到好 接下來我們台灣大學新聞研究所的林肇真教授國立台灣大學新聞研究所的教授林立穎教授國立台灣師範大學大眾傳播研究所的王維欽教授"},{"start":1989.182,"end":2000.65,"text":"國立政治大學傳播學院教授劉昌德教授中國時報社長金總編輯黃樹德社長聯合報系法務經理廖建祥經理自由時報法務專員黃秋選專員"},{"start":2016.052,"end":2032.095,"text":"藝師科技法律事務所所長賴文智賴所長國立台灣科技大學專利研究所助理教授黃泰蘭教授台灣新聞記者協會會長吳柏軒會長全國傳播媒體產業工會理事長閻文廷理事長"},{"start":2046.604,"end":2075.678,"text":"众立国际商务数位资权有限公司律师范国华律师国立政治大学传播协议院助理教授李怡智教授现在我们来介绍类席的官员首先我们来介绍数位部部长黄燕南部长"},{"start":2077.779,"end":2096.756,"text":"主任秘書 署長林俊秀署長國家傳播委員會代理主委 陳崇樹主委綜合規劃處處長 溫俊譽處長文化部政務次長 李敬慧次長"},{"start":2105.336,"end":2115.079,"text":"文化部我們出版師的師長楊庭真師長公平教育會服務業競爭處處長胡祖訓胡處長勞動部勞動條件就業平等師師長黃齊亞師長"},{"start":2130.36,"end":2139.165,"text":"職業安全衛生綜合規劃組組長 許立穎組長經濟部商業發展署組長 蕭夕東組長智慧財產製作前組副組長 吳奕林組長財政部國庫署檢任機合 楊博亨"},{"start":2159.522,"end":2178.779,"text":"複稅署專門委員林美惠國家科學技術委員會技術辦公室新興資通組代理主任郭子仙主任內政部合作及人民團體師專門委員陳敬庭專門委員華務部參事廖江憲"},{"start":2188.203,"end":2201.841,"text":"司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳法官陳彥霖行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員吳明修基金預算處科長楊靖魯"},{"start":2205.697,"end":2221.604,"text":"好以上如果稍等一下我們再來做補充介紹好針對本日公聽會花言的順序先做以下先告寫者專家每位花言時間為8分鐘"},{"start":2224.985,"end":2240.033,"text":"請用你右邊的花園台花園台正對面有燈號是倒數的燈號花園時間結束前一分鐘會提醒一聲花園時間結束則會提醒兩聲"},{"start":2248.564,"end":2267.064,"text":"主席台也會按一項再提醒第二第一輪花園依照各位寫者專家圈道順序花園第一輪花園結束後如有需要補充花園再行第二輪的花園"},{"start":2268.445,"end":2281.803,"text":"三 原則上寫者專家兩位花園貨如有本宴委員到場就安插一位委員花園每位委員花園時間為五分鐘"},{"start":2287.489,"end":2309.535,"text":"委員花言請到主席台登記第五協則專家及委員的花言完畢後再請機關代表做回應以及意見表達暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記要不要給其他"},{"start":2312.226,"end":2320.228,"text":"現在請登記第一號的李怡智我們教授來花言請李教授"},{"start":2333.994,"end":2358.441,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位現場來賓 大家好因為我的身分比較多元 我以前是記者後來是平台業者現在在學校教新聞我在世間非營利跟公營的媒體擔任董監事所以我比較想討論的東西是跟媒體的資格有關的"},{"start":2359.361,"end":2384.075,"text":"那我們這個首先這個要議價或者要領這個基金的時候得先討論到底誰是新聞業者那我自己的教學跟觀察其實現在的人對於新聞這件事情是模糊的所以像館長這兩天在上海他的行為跟他的平台到底算不算新聞你去問很多閱聽人他會說這個是新聞"},{"start":2386.016,"end":2391.097,"text":"那所以這件事情得先討論一下就是我們到底"},{"start":2393.16,"end":2417.908,"text":"這個新聞的這個認定因為要議價或者領這個基金都必須要有一定的身份所以我自己的想法就是我們在認定到底誰是媒體機構的時候呢應該要有一個規範然後也不應該是就是人人有講然後所有人都可以那這個JSP跟NMBC他都有提到編輯室的規範那"},{"start":2421.829,"end":2435.975,"text":"這個我是覺得應該要有比較嚴格的認定的標準就是你雖然做的東西看起來很像新聞譬如說館長很多YouTuber做的東西很像新聞但他沒有編輯式的規範的話或者他沒有真正在落實他編輯式的規範的話應該不能視為可以領這個可以參與"},{"start":2442.138,"end":2463.512,"text":"這個基金分配或者是溢價的這個權利者那這裡呢包含了幾個第一個就是譬如說他他有沒有很詳細的這個編輯的流程然後accountability他記者的實際工作如何然後以及他的內容的形式因為我們現在看到很多媒體他雖然說他也有請記者"},{"start":2464.713,"end":2483.966,"text":"然後他也有很大部分的收入在記者上面可是這些記者原則上他不做採訪他完全都在改寫他把別人的稿件丟到CHPT之後說這個也是報導那所以他縱然有請記者縱然有產出可是他實際上工作的內容我覺得也要列入這個討論"},{"start":2486.067,"end":2514.666,"text":"那因為現在非常多的媒體他已經他已經很少原聲報導他大部分都是改寫或者雜匯或者評論或者解釋他做的東西都是都是非一手的資料那我這邊要提一個這個概念提一個這個建議就是無國界記者組織現在他有一個計畫叫這個這個Journalism Trust InitiativeJTI叫這個無國界"},{"start":2516.187,"end":2529.358,"text":"的這個新聞信任計畫那這個新聞信任計畫呢它是一個非常詳細的標準那我稍微給大家看一下它的題目我列出第二部分"},{"start":2530.665,"end":2553.594,"text":"你要被這個無國界記者組織的JTI認證的時候要回答大概250題的題目就不是說我說我是一個媒體機構我有請多少記者然後我的收入多少錢這樣就可以了這250題因為我自己有看過實際上填答的東西他填得非常非常細"},{"start":2554.514,"end":2569.211,"text":"然後包含你有沒有這個監察人然後你的員工有沒有接受過教育訓練那我覺得最起碼要經過這樣的階段我們才能夠認為他是一個可以有資格參與議價或者是分配的組織"},{"start":2571.363,"end":2588.703,"text":"然後再來量的門檻因為我自己在多個非營利媒體擔任董建師那就是目前非常多提案都寫就是年收入為一千萬的標準可是非營利媒體可能不一定加上捐款可以到一千萬因為一千萬也蠻多錢的"},{"start":2589.984,"end":2615.192,"text":"所以我是覺得應該還是要包含多元的訊號跟指標錢不是唯一所以對於非營利媒體或者是這個我們講獨立媒體那他的得獎然後他的流量他的影響力報告以及這個他有沒有這個嚴格的編輯機制我覺得是可以作為量的門檻那參考值的門檻跟量的門檻"},{"start":2616.192,"end":2632.078,"text":"那我們才能夠讓真正優質的新聞媒體參與議價或者是分配這個基金然後在平台這邊我的一些看法就是很多提案都寫到了這個境內月活躍人數是1000萬"},{"start":2633.579,"end":2653.452,"text":"那我自己以前在平台有工作十幾年的經驗月活躍人數1000萬其實是一個非常大的數量因為台灣才2300萬人那上網人口我們算2000萬人好了這個MAU要到50%其實是一個很高很高的門檻那這個寫法基本上你就認定只有這兩三家"},{"start":2654.252,"end":2683.812,"text":"需要議價而已但實際上真正可能會對新聞的這個經營造成影響的平台它不一定會到未活躍人數一千萬因為這個使用人數跟對媒體的侵害沒有必然的線性關係那我接下來想要再談一下就是我們從現在科技的發展來看我們現在在討論的譬如說Meta好了 Google好了它未必在這個短時間內它會是最大的侵害者"},{"start":2684.334,"end":2684.354,"text":"那"},{"start":2685.854,"end":2714.716,"text":"未來可能真正對新聞媒體造成侵害的是這個OpenAI或者Growk或者Pepacity這種的大型語言模型那他的侵害的獲利來源也不會是廣告收入那雖然OpenAI可能以後放廣告但是他現在沒有所以他有訂閱制然後還有另外一個是我們從外界不容易看到是API的收入有可能API的收入還大於這個訂閱的收入所以"},{"start":2715.416,"end":2732.792,"text":"他的侵害第一個是他的樣態不會是廣告他不是因為拿了你的東西然後去賺廣告然後再來他侵害的獲利範圍也不限於台灣因為他今天學了台灣媒體的寫法那使用者也可能是這個在海外所以"},{"start":2733.453,"end":2761.703,"text":"不應該只拿在台灣的廣告收入作為這個評估或者談判的標準那我是覺得應該參考美國現在幾家的案例包含紐約時報包含其他的媒體那他現在都分別跟這個平台在大型人模型平台在談這件事情那我覺得特別需要注意的就是這個open AI跟publicity這種模式那我這裡再給大家看兩個例子像publicity"},{"start":2763.353,"end":2790.967,"text":"這個你現在在上面查任何東西我們可以看到他這邊都引用了這個中央通訊社的內容那中央通訊社從來都沒有授權給他那他的使用者他實際上是付費的對不對他一個月的月費要幾十塊美金那他也沒有廣告的收入那我們實際上台灣的媒體是被他侵犯了那像譬如說這個我請他這個告訴我館長這次這個去上海然後怎麼樣怎麼樣那"},{"start":2792.011,"end":2813.719,"text":"我們來看他引用的source全部都是中央通訊社當然不只有中央通訊社所以這個中央通訊社應該也要有能力向publicity要到錢那我覺得這個是我們需要再往下注意的所以我的結論就是我們要保障新聞媒體首先要確定這個媒體的條件然後不要大國範就人人都有講謝謝"},{"start":2820.185,"end":2828.951,"text":"好 謝謝我們李一智教授那現在我們請第二位台灣新聞記者協會的會長我們吳博鑫會長來發言"},{"start":2853.154,"end":2867.72,"text":"各位前輩先進 大家好 我是台灣新聞記者協會會長吳博軒陳鋒壽要參加今天兩共聽會 僅代表第一線的工作者的立場來傳達記協針對新聞議價議題的一些看法跟分析"},{"start":2871.361,"end":2896.089,"text":"首先簡述記協今年是逢我們成立30週年我們是由新聞工作者傳播科系的師生組成的專業組織這樣子當初成立的一開始其實是依照人民團體法成立協會可是其實記協的骨子裡面仍然保留當年前輩們他們想要組織工會的協議這樣子所以我們也將促進媒體從業人員權益寫在記協的章程裡面"},{"start":2899.89,"end":2904.548,"text":"那針對新聞議價那就與媒體工作者勞動權益其實息息相關的"},{"start":2905.976,"end":2933.137,"text":"我個人從業15年 不算資深只是剛好跨越這個媒體數位轉型的一個年代記得我剛入行的時候其實最新手機跟行動網路都還不太流行我是騎車低頭看那個紙本的地圖這樣在跑地方的新聞那當然現在手機的一個行動網路越來越強大最新手機越來越強大只要在台灣不是太偏鄉隨時隨地都能夠發稿子 發帶子這樣子"},{"start":2934.798,"end":2960.936,"text":"可是越便利就也越加劇這種勞動控制與這種工作上的一個剝削再加上網路平台這種通訊軟體的一種盛行其實媒體就是被迫也開始進行一些數位轉型這樣子電子報還有即時新聞就大行其道那紙本的銷量也就跟著就是下滑出版業是首當其衝那新聞業就緊跟其後這樣子"},{"start":2961.641,"end":2988.353,"text":"所以接下來的就是為了在這種流量當道的這種環境中大家為了生存那新聞產制不是慢慢的一個變化而是極具體發生這種量變跟質變那我覺得在網路自由分享的一個年代人人愛分享但是大家就沒有想要特別去付費這樣子就訂閱制其實推動起來在國外的成功案例也比較少"},{"start":2989.318,"end":3004.69,"text":"那免費的其實最貴就套在新聞上新聞產制從來都不是免費的它背後都有第一線的工作者辛苦的採訪跟編輯還有校對那一定不是一份報紙這種十元、十五元能夠去支應"},{"start":3006.19,"end":3033.925,"text":"資本也從來不是靠訂戶啦那就像大家知道的現在比較流行的就YouTube他們或是說各種平台這種直播主這樣子他們也是不是靠訂閱去活而是靠所謂的業配可是新聞媒體它不是個體戶那大量的業配可能會嚴重侵犯侵蝕民眾對這種新聞的這種信任度那媒體的收入在目前來講還是以廣告是最穩妥"},{"start":3034.585,"end":3056.801,"text":"那當然其他媒體有其他媒體各式各樣的一個業外收入或其他的那這邊就暫不展開只是在廣告當中當紙本廣告隨著銷量影響大幅下滑再加上網路廣告的這種排擠效應那我們就試想一個廣告主他年度的預算一定就那些那他要分配到"},{"start":3057.765,"end":3084.721,"text":"紙本、電視、廣播甚至是網路那還有其他的管道各式各樣的管道它各有各樣的一些考量顯而易見的現在網路的廣告這一塊就吃掉廣告主這種蠻大一部分的佔比然而拿下網路廣告最大的大戶其實不是媒體業而是平台業所以對於新聞媒體工作者的這種相對剝奪感就會由來而生這樣子那媒體業"},{"start":3086.121,"end":3113.849,"text":"因為廣告收入過去就不用特別計較印刷或是說上架頻道等那些成本這樣子但如今網路廣告沒有辦法去彌補這些缺口所以媒體公司它的經營觀察下來就是蠻多就是可能停滯或是陷入困難那一大部分就會從一些人事費這樣去縮一截十進而去牽動第一線工作者的加薪跟福利"},{"start":3115.097,"end":3136.857,"text":"那衍生出來但現況就是媒體業的新人的起薪降低那有經驗者的薪資也不漲那甚至就會常態性的遇到這種職位欲缺不補那甚至經營不善的大量解雇也是有所聞關門倒閉那就更不在話下這樣子"},{"start":3137.622,"end":3159.078,"text":"可是偏偏我就講回來到我們第一線工作的困境其實因為數位資訊爆炸媒體從業人員如今的工作已經不像我早年那種入行那種樣子但我之前那其實前輩會更多的體悟因為現在都需要快速處理龐雜多元的各類的資訊我以前可能一天"},{"start":3159.818,"end":3178.207,"text":"因為我是報紙業 那我一天只要發一次的報紙的紙本的新聞回去可是現在 現在即時新聞的一個壓力下我假設今天這場記者會結束 可能半小時我就得把即時新聞發回去這是網路的一個快速 但也是它的缺點"},{"start":3181.118,"end":3195.644,"text":"但是新聞媒體它不是網紅所以它有一個狀況是它無法靠發布個人特色的這種內容來營造粉絲或是創造收入那媒體就會常常依賴相同重大事件"},{"start":3196.991,"end":3222.939,"text":"各家媒體就會形成所謂的競爭壓力那搶快搶獨家那只要及時進入晚一分一秒低線人員就會因為失去流量而遭責罵那進一步就會惡化工作權益那也這些壓力就會擊垮這些有心進入這一行的人我就看到蠻多的新人或許在這些低線的這種壓力之下或許產生不適應或許另有其他考量那有些轉業了那"},{"start":3224.719,"end":3249.931,"text":"留下來的人他可能也會因為這種工作樣態跟他的薪資其實是不符成本不符那種CP值的那甚至過勞這件事情在媒體勞檢這件事情也很難去勞檢出來那接下來我想要談一下的是演算法這個平台業者這邊他們其實從來沒有公佈他們篩選的演算法"},{"start":3252.171,"end":3278.954,"text":"早上才剛滑到一個影片就是Youtuber志宜七七他幾天前才剛講到一本新書叫失控的憤怒機器他其實就是談這些平台利用放大人們的這種憤怒情緒那短時間的形成所謂的病毒式的一種擴散然後它造成的影響是分化社群去削弱民族因為你看到一個憤怒的東西你就會快速的去想要分享這樣子"},{"start":3279.494,"end":3294.648,"text":"那媒體在這樣的一個影響下有可能也會因為內容又開始偏去更激進的內容部分可能就失去功力客觀那為了流量各家媒體就不斷的去嘗試例如說早期有聳動標題啊那種那種標題釣魚標題或是問號標題等"},{"start":3298.396,"end":3314.876,"text":"那你漸漸的媒體就會失去大眾的信賴你為了流量為了點閱率這些不是一些重要新聞它承載的是公益性與重要性所以民眾愛看的有時候不一定是非常重要的新聞但是演算法沒有把新聞專業跟價值納入考量範圍所以"},{"start":3317.239,"end":3344.162,"text":"最後變成說網路隨身插了阿媽阿狗的糗事趣聞就寫成即時新聞卻更登上排行榜這樣子大家努力花很多心血寫的那種專題報導就不會被推播這是一個惡性循環那甚至可能會影響到社會的觀感跟道德觀的建立不是台灣人民之福那除非演算法可以進一步的做好再給我一分鐘 不好意思所以今天公聽會我最主要想要討論的是"},{"start":3345.603,"end":3371.419,"text":"在新聞溢價的這種可能性之下我希望重申記協的立場是立法過程必須兼顧媒體公務者的權益希望未來在相關的機制裡面納入勞工的意見並提出實際改善勞動條件的方案包括加薪或是福利等等才能夠逆轉現在目前新聞業人才流失那媒體劣化這種局勢這樣子那新聞自由是一個國家民主化是否重要的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":3372.219,"end":3396.98,"text":"希望各界跟媒體業可以一起攜手讓大家找出一些努力的方向讓新聞可以發揮真正的社會價值謝謝大家好 謝謝我們記者協會的吳會長那現在我來補充介紹一下我們國立政治大學法學院教授王立達教授站起來跟人家打招呼一下"},{"start":3399.025,"end":3407.67,"text":"另外國立政治大學傳播學院劉昌德教授好"},{"start":3408.615,"end":3430.185,"text":"那現在我特別跟各位寫者專家來做報告一下所有的順序完全依照簽名順序而來特別跟大家解說一下並非說如何去安排是照你們簽名的順序而來"},{"start":3430.885,"end":3455.127,"text":"所以各位協助專家不要產生誤會說為什麼他先為什麼他慢所以這個你也知道立法院在做事情是有100億人有順序的所以請大家順序的問題我們就照簽名而來那現在我們請非常關心我們媒體朋友的本會也是民眾黨的副總召我們張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":3464.065,"end":3479.035,"text":"特別提醒一下五分鐘而已學者才是八分鐘拜託今天主角是我們很多專家學者話少講一點不過今天會報告很多好消息今天非常高興有這麼多專業的這個"},{"start":3481.772,"end":3508.786,"text":"代表來 我看到很多好朋友都是在新聞界非常資深還有很多這個學者 今天產力界代表也來那 請我跟大家報告一下 上媒體議價法這類火車事實上是已經開動了今天我看很多人是有點擔心啦 包括今天台灣新聞協界還有產業跟專業團體跟學生 他們今天在串聯今天發表聯合聲明 要求要拒絕這個平台剝削 然後這個搶救新聞產業 我有跟大家講"},{"start":3510.367,"end":3530.064,"text":"事實上媒體議價這個已經最近這幾年上市一直在往前推動當中那我跟大家報告幾個好消息之前我們台灣民眾黨已經辦過公聽會了更重要的在這個國審安排之下我們也辦過委員會的這個審查啦我先報告幾個比較重要的好消息今天"},{"start":3530.985,"end":3555.338,"text":"三大主管機關都在NCC還有這個數位部數位發展部還有這個公平會我要先讚美公平會公平會本來我們以前在開會的時候啊都擔心說他是主力不是助力可是公平會的主委來這邊還有在公聽會他們非常積極認識他們做了兩個事情很重要第一個在我們媒體議價的這個過程裡面本來擔心有壟斷的問題對不對"},{"start":3558.26,"end":3568.268,"text":"他們主委很清楚的說 這個條文裡面怎麼避免這個 他們會去幫忙就是消極面他們會去幫忙 更重要的他說積極面 我們去議價的時候 公平會要怎麼幫忙條文訂清楚 他們會全力幫忙來 我們發家垂涎 我們要謝謝這個 要非常感謝這個公平會然後另外呢 剛剛這個記者協會有在提啊"},{"start":3580.538,"end":3599.733,"text":"最近事實上已經有某些媒體 事實上已經跟那個郭火跟臉書他們都有一些 已經有些合作嘛 對不對那事實上在分證那個過程裡面 那個演算確實一直出了問題今天那個NCC的主委在現場 你那天有答應我嘛 對不對要去解決這個問題 去跟他們談清楚 好不好不能夠今天分證是1000萬 明天一下子變成100萬"},{"start":3602.495,"end":3620.673,"text":"就是因為那個演算的那個不透明嘛對不對啊你答應我要去做好不好所以公平會有開始往前跨進了然後呢這個NCC往前跨進了那數位發展部走了半步啦數位發展部現在經過上次會議他們也ignore最晚在年底他們會提出一個對案來"},{"start":3621.574,"end":3642.982,"text":"所以是讓大家的努力狀況之下都是有在往前走的那我們當然希望可能更快一點我們現在督促那個事務發布可能要快一點因為經過今天的公聽會之後或許我們再爭取看看有沒有可能在這個會計完成三讀好不好那進一步的來講是讓目前各個政黨三大黨國民黨有提法案民進黨也有提法案"},{"start":3644.246,"end":3663.662,"text":"民眾黨都有提法案那內容老講大同小異內容沒有差太多對於這個新聞是有價的不要做白宮然後這個每年有將近400億的這個平台的收益廣告收益400億喔那在全世界比較先進國家他本來分認就是有的嘛"},{"start":3664.79,"end":3686.188,"text":"那到底怎麼分認回來所以一方面新聞有價然後這400多億這個分認要什麼有哪些是要回來的這個大家都是有共識的好那目前要解決的是什麼國民進黨的版本是要成立一個基金民進黨是要成立一個基金國民黨是用強制溢價他就給一個法源啦那政府要什麼去幫忙"},{"start":3687.625,"end":3712.137,"text":"然後呢 臺灣民眾黨是雙管齊下 我們兩個都有大家可以看一下版本 這版本都已經有了而且大同小異那臺灣民眾黨現在非常清楚因為我們跟時間在賽跑所以我們雖然兩個管道都有提可是因為那個事務發布 事務發展部上次來開會有特別提他們是贊成的 可是現在碰到一個困擾就是現在川普的高官說要談判 對不對"},{"start":3713.595,"end":3730.217,"text":"他們怕基金會影響到所以上次有一個初步的討論了如果要跟時間賽跑要儘快完成這個三賭的話就是先不要用基金可是我們透過強制溢價強制溢價剛剛有這個代表在講說你在擔心什麼館長那些都不是問題啦"},{"start":3731.218,"end":3760.312,"text":"不會是問題 你自己的流量過 你有實力我們這個議價 強制議價是有兩個很重要的個別是可以議價的 你流量過了 你有影響力 你本來就可以議價聯合報可以去啊 自由時報也可以去啊對不對 你是TBS 你也可以去啊 三立也可以去個別可以去 這是一個第二個 我們團體也可以去就是在授權在這個法律上面是個別可以去 團體也可以去是多管齊下的 所以老實講這個沒有問題那政府的角色是什麼啊"},{"start":3761.472,"end":3786.722,"text":"趕快跟立法院合作第一個我們把法律的授權訂出來就是有強制議價這個授權要先訂出來這是今天開公聽會一個非常重要的我們把這個強制議價的法源把它訂出來然後進一步各個部會要怎麼去幫大家所以今天是會有進度的好不好大家不要太擔心那我們蠻期待的我們的聚焦在剛剛我提的各個部會已經提出他們的"},{"start":3787.822,"end":3797.889,"text":"提出他們的意見了而且看起來是正面的那各個黨團也都提出了解決方案了如果透過更透過大家今天這個很多的專業的意見盡量把它收攏我相信很快後期有機會我們這個會期可以再努力把它盡快通過好不好好 謝謝大家"},{"start":3804.192,"end":3826.723,"text":"好 謝謝我們張祺凱委員特別跟各位報告其實都有版本都有版本所以最後因為我們已經詢答完畢進行公聽會完全是聽我們寫者專家 寫友專精精闢的看法我們再來做審查這樣的話 那個法會較為完整"},{"start":3830.965,"end":3849.2,"text":"所以剛才齊凱委員已經講得很清楚是有在進步公聽會完了以後就會進行實質的審查所以今天的花園非常重要非常重要會讓委員作為一個非常主要的一個審查"},{"start":3850.641,"end":3869.29,"text":"特別跟寫者專家特別來做今天你的發言對立法院是非常重要的那現在我們請全國傳播媒體產業工會的理事長嚴文廷理事長來發言現在請"},{"start":3871.704,"end":3893.639,"text":"好還沒有花言前我再來補充介紹一樣是對我們媒體非常友善然後也是媒體人出身的我們本會委員非常關心非常關心也是有提案的我們王宏威委員好謝謝現在請理事長開始"},{"start":3895.596,"end":3915.73,"text":"各位老師各位前輩各位媒體同業大家好我是全國傳播媒體產業工會的理事長顏文廷那我們工會成立到現在已經第九年了我們為什麼會成立這個全傳媒的工會就是因為數位發展的時代下那即時新聞的"},{"start":3917.479,"end":3930.666,"text":"發展讓我們的工作條件是完全的劣化那我舉一個最簡單的例子以前我自己在報社的時候我一天只要發一次的截稿我那時候在晚報我待了十年的時間"},{"start":3931.874,"end":3951.126,"text":"我在晚報我只要中午前把稿子交出去就不干我的事了然後下午我可以認真的去找我明天要寫什麼我之後的專題要寫什麼這是我們以前的作業形態但現在 現在的即時新聞一天要發至少二十則 十幾則二十則一天工作才八小時"},{"start":3952.369,"end":3967.359,"text":"我到底要有多少時間 我還要上廁所 我還要休息 我還要吃午餐請問我有多少時間可以查證新聞那這個是我們目前媒體工作者的現況那這個只是即時新聞而已電子媒體也是一樣 以前我"},{"start":3968.16,"end":3995.736,"text":"在學生時代我在電視台打工的時候上午下午各一則新聞然後我只要上午跑完我中午交了晚上六點再交了這件事情就結束除非我有小夜班要執勤但我要講的事情是現在是除了上下各一則之外你在家還要在各做一則新聞什麼叫做在家各做一則新聞我舉個最簡單的例子像比如說今天可能某個委員他"},{"start":3996.576,"end":4024.842,"text":"有一個議題要發表或是說這個議題我想要找比如說立法院的哪一個委員比如說旗下委員來發言好了那很簡單我只要請他的助理幫我拍一則就是他的發言傳給我然後我再剪一個帶子這樣就做成一則新聞啦這樣的新聞品質要怎麼留住年輕人我們每次招進來的年輕人兩三年就走了為什麼你每天叫他抄新聞他沒有成就感啊然後一直被人家笑說是"},{"start":4025.982,"end":4051.898,"text":"小時候不讀書長大才當記者這樣的新聞情況下沒有人想要做這個行業那我們看到的危機是我們看不到下一代的年輕人願意從事這個新聞行業然後只說那怎麼樣比如說去大學演講舉手發問的問我們說那怎麼樣才可以當一個網紅那請問這樣子我們要怎麼培養我們的下一代那我是承接過去前輩"},{"start":4053.427,"end":4063.548,"text":"建立起來的新聞自由的環境那我自己有待到一點點的黃金時代那可是對我來講我從事新聞工作20年"},{"start":4065.066,"end":4083.077,"text":"我至少做過五家公司是倒掉的那這是我的環境但是我還是有經歷到獨家是有價值的舉例來說我在晚報的時候我寫了一個頭版頭的獨家所有人是會今天就是跟著這個獨家的新聞一直走"},{"start":4083.797,"end":4104.767,"text":"那這個是給我們一個成就感說這個新聞它是有價值的我每天認真的跑出一則好新聞它是有意義的但是現在如果我只是花了五分鐘十分鐘去抄一則新聞我連問都不用問我連回應都不用問我連查證都不需要請問這樣的工作環境有誰想要做那為什麼要推動"},{"start":4106.642,"end":4124.155,"text":"議價跟基金就是為了這件事情因為做這些事情他不會突然間冒出來他每天有需要花很多力氣才做的比如說以我現在在獨立媒體報導者工作做一則深度新聞需要一個月兩個月的時間我需要去看完所有這一個"},{"start":4125.476,"end":4152.147,"text":"制度它的缺陷在哪裡反問很多老師跟學者這個的問題在哪邊然後加上自己的判斷才能夠去完成那一份專題報導這個是需要時間的他不會一個小時兩個小時就出現所以這個內容如果數位平台他把它拿走了那他應該要有所付費或是有一定的給相當的回饋那這個回饋我們"},{"start":4154.967,"end":4172.72,"text":"勞動團體的立場就是你這個回饋要回饋到直接基層的工作人員身上因為他們才是真正需要花心力做這件事情的比如說像我以前待過非常多的媒體的老闆然後他就是要求你每天要交那麼多東西出來啊那你能怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4173.661,"end":4189.582,"text":"那我的意思就是說我希望這一次的公聽會我希望能夠去倡導一件事情是第一個新聞是有價的第二個我們需要再建立更好的機制去希望這些平台他能夠把"},{"start":4191.249,"end":4210.929,"text":"產生 產製出來的或是他分享出來的東西他能夠回饋到真正基層工作者身上那要怎麼回饋我覺得可以討論那另外一件事情是我需要講的事情是過去這件事情已經談了非常多次了但是政府部門每次都不找基層的勞工的意見"},{"start":4211.61,"end":4237.2,"text":"那我覺得這件事情是非常荒謬的因為只有我們才知道我們現在目前面對到什麼處境颱風天要出情然後颱風天要發新聞然後結果我好不容易跑到一個珍貴的新聞五分鐘就被其他媒體抄走然後或是被臉書或是Google分享走請問這樣有誰要做這件事情對啊我刮風下大雨我為了就是這件事情啊那如果我"},{"start":4238.96,"end":4260.949,"text":"給我自己的媒體沒有分享到這個點閱率的時候或是流量的時候甚至沒有讓我的媒體能夠獲得一定的比如說廣告的收益那請問為什麼我需要老闆需要支持這樣的記者做這件事情這個是整個是環環相扣的所以如果大家在討論這件事情的時候不管是要找"},{"start":4262.489,"end":4282.879,"text":"記協也好或是要找我們也好至少能夠聽聽我們的意見因為實際操作面是只有我們在操作我們才知道那個新聞是怎麼變出來的但是可是問題是現在目前就不是現在目前不是這個樣子好那最後我想要講的事情是另外一件事情是那個就是AI的演算法"},{"start":4283.459,"end":4308.654,"text":"那就是AI它怎麼產生模型的它其實是我上一句接下一句的機率有多大比如說我上一句講什麼下一句我要講什麼那下一句它會用那個演算的方式去算出下一句接什麼最合理那我的意思是說像這樣的東西如果我們的偶心力血寫出來的報導它能夠被這些"},{"start":4310.437,"end":4318.356,"text":"比如說確認GDP他們的演算去算出來之後那記者的工作他可能會消失"},{"start":4319.791,"end":4342.191,"text":"大家懂我意思嗎就是他不是一個不會被取代的因為他如果算得非常的精準甚至他可以知道我下一句要寫什麼然後甚至可以引述確實的消息來源那我要講的事情是這件事情已經在發生了很多新創公司都在進行這件事情那如果我們的報導無償或是免費的被人家搜尋抓走"},{"start":4342.992,"end":4370.493,"text":"那最後有誰要做新聞那這個是我覺得必須要下一步必須要謹慎的因為所有的人工AI的智慧模型全部都要計算這件事情那尤其是繁體製的世界那這個是有市場的那如果能夠從這邊去爭取希望他們在使用模型的時候付費那我覺得這是另外一個可以讓整個內容可以更好的一個方式謝謝"},{"start":4374.755,"end":4387.475,"text":"好謝謝我們顏文廷理事長現在我們請重力國際商務數位智慧有限公司換國華律師現在請換律師發言"},{"start":4399.228,"end":4422.368,"text":"主席各位先請大家好因為時間限制的話昨天收到通知花了大概四個小時的話呢做了一個網站這網站之中的話呢那要先跟各位報告畢竟我是法律人所以從法律的觀點去看這整部的一個草案三個草案的話呢為了做一個比對圖可是因為今天可能沒有辦法說可能再往前面好不好上面一點"},{"start":4426.161,"end":4435.245,"text":"那這邊有查案的比對比較圖嘛那基本上因為這個議題的話我第一個想法就是說這法律定義到底是什麼它是一個國內法還是國際法"},{"start":4437.428,"end":4458.246,"text":"對 它是一個服務貿易吧那服務貿易的話我們用國內法的方式去規範國際法的問題點的話這是第一個問題點似乎在整個法律案三個桃案都沒有提到那我們可以看到是三個桃案都在講一個問題就是我們就直接拿澳洲的版本來作業吧那我們再去看澳洲版本之外呢還有加拿大的版本"},{"start":4459.042,"end":4476.943,"text":"那再來看其他的都是英美法的版本英美法的版本跟我們最大的差異在於我們大陸法系我們公法跟司法之分呢英美法系不用啊反正同一個法院就可以就機了所以在這個問題點之下的話第二個問題點是那我們大陸法系我們該怎麼定性它呢"},{"start":4477.523,"end":4505.802,"text":"那媒體的權利是一種權利嗎所以我們看歐盟 歐盟就說好吧 我用著作權的迎接權吧不要搞澳洲講的那一套叫做數據權因為數據權內容的話呢真的要做一個智慧產權類比它是類似於營業秘密營業秘密是因為WTO之後呢去談下來說乾脆比照智慧產權方式來作業那我回到待會法系的問題還是我們到底要給一個媒體跟所謂的平台之間怎麼做利益平衡"},{"start":4506.542,"end":4524.282,"text":"你要利益平衡的話呢 就是一個問題就是這種所謂的這種媒體溢價的這個權利到底是一個特權還是一個power 權利 力量的力還是一個right我們大陸法系講的都是權利不是講power 也不是講privilege不是一個特權"},{"start":4525.103,"end":4540.077,"text":"那在這種情況之下我們硬要將草案之中就直接強制用公權力的方式然後呢介入私權的私權還沒有紛爭是一個利益分配的問題那這部分的話利益分配就要講這是一個內容產業從傳統的"},{"start":4543.119,"end":4566.215,"text":"資訊的傳播是透過所謂傳統媒體到新媒體的發聲是因為所謂的新科技的影響那一路走下來的話會產生影響的話會有哪些那基於時間限制的話我們先就第一個問題我要講的是第一個前面的問題就第四權跟數位內容權利歸屬到底是誰的媒體說這是我的權利嗎還是我報導別人之後呢我會有一個著作權"},{"start":4567.296,"end":4584.226,"text":"往外延伸的凝結權而這凝結權的話以我目前的著作權法的一個立法來看只承認兩種而且是屬於所謂著作權人的凝結權並不是像什麼博恩公約或是歐盟所主張的那個樣子那因此呢如果我們現在草率的立法的話"},{"start":4585.506,"end":4612.605,"text":"我相信紛爭很多它就會上升成國內法變成國際貿易法問題這就是一種所謂的非關稅比例貿易障礙那這個制裁點的話肯定會發生同時一反而來看我們國內的話是公法到底是要向行政法院還是要向什麼呢還是要向普通法院第一個究極途徑就會產生問題那這個是一個不管怎麼樣WTO鄉下之中我們司法制度不能解決立法的問題"},{"start":4614.213,"end":4631.789,"text":"那再退一萬步而言我個人認為是說這個整個內容產業化從媒體到新媒體甚至到平台甚至到現在所在AI的部分的話的確它橫跡可以看到的話有些利益的衡量這是一種賽局這賽局中怎麼做利益分配"},{"start":4632.669,"end":4655.062,"text":"整體而言新的技術取代了舊的產業之中的業者必須要做一種填補還是一種強制的種材必須要撥一定利益交給其他人因此製作設計之中會變成一個平台業者是一對多為什麼呢我們只要媒體認定是他可以一個一個來"},{"start":4656.923,"end":4677.623,"text":"那再來呢我們被訴求的數位平台他一個問題是說你們可以一起來嗎不行我們現在的草案全部都不行那只有所謂的媒體自己想一起就一起不想一起就不要一起這就是最簡單的問題你當然會想要一起去跟數位平台要錢嗎不會的所以這溢價制度的話它會產生一種"},{"start":4678.464,"end":4706.275,"text":"天秤上的偏離而這種偏離的話就是屬於保護內國產業還是跟國際產業也就是說保護內國的新聞媒體還是屬於跟國際上的數位平台做一個競爭所以它會變成內國法走向外國法的一個爭議這是可預得到的同時我們去導入的話沒有考慮到公法跟司法沒有去定性它的權利的話在法院上 在司法上面的話我要秉出司法的救濟"},{"start":4707.555,"end":4723.53,"text":"所以這有點一團亂就是說我們基於一個綠色立場來看我看不出所以然因此我在建議版本中有提到一個點就是說那是不是在申請的過程之中的話應該讓專業人士介入譬如說財務報表你要快速簽證嘛那小安中我沒看到"},{"start":4724.4,"end":4743.249,"text":"那第二個的話呢如果說溢價不成的話要進入到強制不管是強制仲裁或什麼樣程序的話那是不是也應該要有什麼呢媒體本身不管你錢多錢少你還是要救你是否有權益受侵害你要提出一個報告嘛有時候自我的檢查一個禁止報告"},{"start":4744.366,"end":4767.394,"text":"出來你也透過財務顧問或是律師或是會計師提出一個第三人去看合法程序以及他的流程的設計的話是符合一般的財務報表編制原則我們才是說這個部分的話你要去要求政府去介入的話然後用一種強制力使得所謂平台願意或是不願意就範"},{"start":4768.334,"end":4790.354,"text":"那同樣的你還是要保護這個平台啦那平台說我要救濟的時候怎麼辦一看我到底要向普通法院還是向行政法院救濟目前的草案完全看不出來那因此我們是不是還加第二個定性關於所謂的主管機關的話我們現在有雙重措施啦公民交易委員會的話你要申報就可以避免所謂的聯合行為嘛"},{"start":4790.974,"end":4818.228,"text":"那第二個的話 目的世界主管機關 設計師訴發部那訴發部這邊的話 他就要去決定什麼了他就要決定說 你來申請之後我要准那准了之後呢 我可能要通知數位平台那數位平台的話 他可以來 可以不來而我們現在草案 只有一個草案之中有提到說有罰則有時候我通知你 你竟然不參與 那我罰你五萬到五十萬吧 如此類的那這個金額"},{"start":4820.649,"end":4833.674,"text":"數可太少了同樣的這個通知的話呢平台能不能救濟如果不能救濟的話呢不能救濟的話等於是什麼呢人為刀鼠數位平台為魚肉"},{"start":4835.653,"end":4851.008,"text":"這也不是一個好的方式如果從國際貿易角度來看的話你這個台灣的立法根本是欺負人即使它是一個某種形式的壟斷可是它競爭非常的夠那尤其走到AI這部分的話呢很多是這樣"},{"start":4852.341,"end":4876.981,"text":"新的科技一往上走你的新創的話投資10億美金一樣照倒這種倒法的話會比所謂的舊媒體倒更壞那所以這怎麼做利益平衡的話呢我就要看所謂的平台的行為是否跟新聞的行為之中它有沒有一個同點的那如果說直接是直接是抄襲新聞媒體的非屬所謂事實的報導有加自己的意見的話那是屬於侵害著作權的行為"},{"start":4877.942,"end":4892.491,"text":"可是整理媒體的報導之後做成一些利用那是另外一個行為和數據權我想簡單來看的話就跟各位報告到這裡簡單來說這個事情要不要做 需要做可是必須要謹慎為之 謝謝"},{"start":4896.257,"end":4917.219,"text":"好 謝謝我們換律師我們由皓浩委員因為把時間讓給各寫者專家所以現在我們就請王維欽教授我們師範大學大眾傳播研究所的教授王維欽教授來花言"},{"start":4922.859,"end":4938.028,"text":"主席各位委員各位朋友大家好我這學期第一次開一門課叫傳播產業我想這門課以後我應該會把它改名字應該就傳播產業改名悲慘的慘"},{"start":4939.608,"end":4965.258,"text":"那這個教育本來應該是要帶給學生這個動力跟希望的可是這門課我們卻上到上到後來大家心情真的都很差那因為我們看到的是這個在課裡面看到的是台灣傳播產業這個生產規模還有它的生產資源實在少到讓人家震驚跟尷尬我不知道政府有沒有看到這件事就是我們的傳播產業的這個生產的資源跟規模真的少到讓人家尷尬"},{"start":4969.8,"end":4991.732,"text":"那工作者啊 薪資啊 低到啊 真的讓大家覺得非常非常的難堪喔那我們這堂課裡面有一個同學喔 他其實是在這個一個大報 真的是大報的這個健康醫療版裡面喔 當工讀審那我就問他說 欸 佳娟呢 那你以後這個畢業以後要不要就留下來就轉正職"},{"start":4993.573,"end":5011.751,"text":"那他告訴我說老師你知道我轉正職以後薪水多少嗎我說多少他說三萬四各位我二十年前在同一家報紙大概二十年前同一家報紙我的大概月薪是四萬五然後還可以領四點五個月的年終獎金"},{"start":5013.178,"end":5030.152,"text":"為什麼二十多年薪水怎麼會是從四萬五變成三萬四雖然他是編輯我是記者可能有差一兩千塊可是你們可以想像嗎台灣的物價通貨膨脹有多嚴重結果記者的薪資倒退到不如二十年前"},{"start":5031.172,"end":5049.117,"text":"剛好報業的一個老朋友也告訴我們說他們最近報社來了一個政治組的記者非常非常優秀跑不到一個月就跟他們說不好意思我要去送Uber Eats因為這樣比較可能活得下去我覺得面對這些狀況"},{"start":5055,"end":5078.865,"text":"我們老師們難過的並不是說那就是新聞傳播教育要崩盤了我們快要沒有學生了我覺得我們很難過的是作為一個老師我第一次覺得教育並不是在幫助學生反而是在害他們好像走向一個低薪跟苦勞的道路其實這是一種很沉痛的心情我不知道各位是不是可以想像"},{"start":5080.066,"end":5090.686,"text":"那對這種困境我覺得身為老師我們今天在這邊也已經無法再無動於衷了自己在那裡歲月靜好然後看不到學生的這種困境"},{"start":5092.179,"end":5114.893,"text":"好那新聞業的崩壞啊其實他傷害的不只是學生而已沒有資源生產好的新聞喔那些粗製濫造過度簡化過度這個簡化推因然後聳動的新聞只會繼續傷害我們的民主然後惡化我們的社會對話那也製造對立傷害我們每一個人"},{"start":5116.766,"end":5137.464,"text":"好 那所以其實很多傳播學界的這個師生非常非常希望政府跟立法院要儘速通過這個新聞溢價跟基金的立法然後藉此來重建台灣的新聞經濟生態那各位不知道有沒有注意到其實學界也發起了跟這個新聞界一起的連署"},{"start":5138.024,"end":5164.571,"text":"那現在這個發起人有116位其中有64位是傳播的教師而且是來自國內18家不同的大學的新聞傳播系所我想這是台灣傳播學界首次而且也是在台灣那個學門裡面非常非常少見的就是特定領域的這個教授啊集結起來對政府做的這個大規模的這個抗議"},{"start":5167.387,"end":5190.783,"text":"我們今天其實也開始開放產學界的連署歡迎大家告訴大家大家趕快一起來連署我們想要讓政府看到新聞傳播界對立法的期盼我們也希望各政黨的立委盡快通過法案不要拖延也不要阻礙立法"},{"start":5191.623,"end":5211.635,"text":"我相信所有台灣的新聞傳播人的眼睛都在看這件事我們也都不是可以被政府跟政黨操控胡弄的笨蛋針對新聞溢價跟基金立法現有的草案版本以下這邊我大概也提供四點建議"},{"start":5213.117,"end":5233.771,"text":"好第一個建議是從平台獲得的這個授權金或分潤應該要立法明定提撥一定的比例必須專用於改善新聞工作者的薪資待遇這一定要放進法條裡因為大家很多人會說那媒體拿到這個分潤拿到授權金以後"},{"start":5234.651,"end":5254.611,"text":"他會去改善這個工作者的條件嗎那這不是我們想要的所以麻煩請把這個提破一定比例專用改善新聞工作者待遇放進去法條例好那如果成立基金的話也應該要有規定一定的部分是要用來改善新聞工作者的工作權益"},{"start":5257.937,"end":5276.808,"text":"第二點因為小型的新聞媒體規模比較小它的議價能力也比較有限所以我們也希望說立法中應該要保障小型媒體可以參與聯合議價政府應該要建立機制或平台協助這些小型媒體聯合上平台議價"},{"start":5278.028,"end":5295.893,"text":"提供包括像法律諮詢 協商的程序協調窗口的資源或設立媒合平台來幫助小媒體跟平台協商這是要避免弱勢媒體被排除在外然後維護新聞的多元發展"},{"start":5299.349,"end":5322.92,"text":"好 第三生成式人工智慧平台也應該要納入規範並要求他要這個有授權金支付的義務那有鑑於生成式AI利用新聞媒體內容進行模型訓練那也做成這個生成摘要那他現在已經逐步取代這個搜尋引擎"},{"start":5323.94,"end":5348.345,"text":"他未來將是對新聞產業最主要的影響者所以其實人工智慧應該要跟其他數位平台同樣都承擔溢價而且支付授權金的這個義務那實際上現在世界上像OpenAI還有AmazonAI其實都已經在做這樣的事了他們都已經在付授權金給媒體了那包括像付給德國的媒體紐約時報美聯社等等"},{"start":5351.786,"end":5363.377,"text":"好 那第四我們也建議法案中要列入要求包括平台對新聞排序的演算法的穩定性跟公共性原則媒體其實對這個受害很深"},{"start":5365.618,"end":5382.307,"text":"因為平台常常無緣無故的去改變這個牌序或他的這個算法好 那首先對於這個合法授權或正在進行溢價協商的新聞內容不應該無故降低他的曝光或牌序那以確保這個溢價協商公平有效性"},{"start":5383.083,"end":5397.711,"text":"好 第二凡涉及重大公共利益跟社會重要議題的新聞內容應該要提高它的路出跟排序那這是為了要維護資訊的公共價值確保公眾的知情權"},{"start":5399.092,"end":5418.802,"text":"第三 盡可能維持新聞內容排序跟演算推波的穩定性跟可預測性主席不好意思 可是再給我大概一下下就好了避免未經這種充分預告或任意的去改變流量的限制或排序的調整這是為了要幫助新聞媒體可以穩定營運"},{"start":5420.943,"end":5438.874,"text":"最後在這個合理跟技術可行的範圍內希望盡量公開演算法排序跟推波它的主要原則或影響參數希望可以促進公平競爭公開透明以及強化平台的公共苛責性以上 謝謝"},{"start":5440.475,"end":5452.427,"text":"好 謝謝王維欽教授的花言現在我們請政治大學傳播學院的劉昌德教授花言"},{"start":5464.119,"end":5473.646,"text":"主席然後在座的委員主管機關還有各位學者專家大家好那我是國立政治大學的"},{"start":5474.682,"end":5495.607,"text":"文學院教授劉昌德那同時另外一個身份目前另外一個身份是華視的總經理那所以我今天大概會以這樣的兩個身份來提供個人的一些研究跟實務上面的經驗跟前見那我先簡單的說我在對於這個法條上面的一個"},{"start":5496.347,"end":5519.965,"text":"基本的看法第一個是我覺得一定要去討論這一個而且要就是要對平臺科與責任那這個政府立法這個事情是刻不容緩的那基本上我就是認為說在整個傳播界裡面這個能力越大的那當然責任就會越大平臺現在能力最大"},{"start":5520.385,"end":5540.68,"text":"那當然他的責任也就最大未來如果OpenAI各種AI的這樣的業者能力越大他們的責任也就應該越大那這一定要由政府來作為一個不管是協調或是強制的一個角色這是第一個我的想法那第二個想法是在我們在"},{"start":5542.261,"end":5569.904,"text":"業界還有研究的一些經驗裡面我覺得最重要的是平台的不管是演算乃至於商業的機制要再進一步的透明化那第二個就是接下來我們在立法上面我自己的想法是基金優先 溢價當作後盾那這些都是由我的一個經驗來做邏輯上面的一個討論然後再跟大家來就教"},{"start":5571.295,"end":5597.34,"text":"那首先我想我就我自己長期的這個身份作為一個傳播學者而且我在2022年的時候參與也主持了雜誌業跟報業的一個相關的跟平臺上面的一個研究產業的一個調查那這個調查裡面我們看到最重要的一個狀況就是這十多年來的狀況就是平臺藉由壟斷"},{"start":5601.178,"end":5602.303,"text":"閱讀收視的管道"},{"start":5603.717,"end":5629.592,"text":"已經成為最大的這個我們說在傳播裡面傳播管道裡面最大的一個地主那平台藉由這樣的一個身份讓我們這些內容業者成為它的電農那這個是我們現在看到的現象那這是有根據的就是我們用簡單的我們最媒體最重要的廣告收入來看在這十年之間呢其實台灣的廣告量就這個"},{"start":5630.752,"end":5641.922,"text":"總而來說它是成長了45%但是在這裡面只有網路是成長的只有網路的廣告是成長的它的佔比從原來的32%2015年的32%提高到2024年的71%那電視也就是我現在在的這個產業"},{"start":5651.75,"end":5677.645,"text":"相對來說衰退了30%其中有線電視跟無線電視各自衰退了三成或是一成五左右那我們的佔比尤其是無線電視目前的佔比只到了大概3.5%而已那平面呢 更慘就是如果我們完全看平面媒體的廣告的話就是不計算這個數位的收入的話它的佔比已經從過去的17%左右"},{"start":5680.103,"end":5696.782,"text":"降到了不到2%那裡面不管是報紙跟雜誌在裡面的佔比都微乎其微那也就是大家都非得到網路上面來尋求這樣的一個廣告量那為什麼說在這樣狀況下面平台成為一個地主"},{"start":5697.842,"end":5713.007,"text":"當大家的這個就是我們所有的用戶的習慣轉到手機轉到轉到平板各種移動裝置的時候他藉由壟斷這個gatekeeper的這個角色其實讓我們不得不跟他合作"},{"start":5713.647,"end":5729.594,"text":"那如果我們現在回到政府的做法我要說議價分潤這件事情其實就是我喜歡用一個比喻就是1950年代到60年代台灣的土地改革"},{"start":5730.424,"end":5748.505,"text":"我們現在在做的 如果我們要強制溢價 就是375減租就是希望我們可以分到更多的地租但是這個到底對於媒體的產業的處境有沒有根本性的幫助 我認為沒有後來我們的土地改革做了什麼 我們做了耕者有其田"},{"start":5749.997,"end":5778.42,"text":"也就是讓我們能夠真正掌握自己的管道我們才能夠真正的留住我們需要的這些廣告營收進而達到剛剛王維京教授講的還有就是我們的工會朋友說的怎麼樣再回到我們的那個工作者身上這樣的一個方式你勢必要把這一些廣告收入還有廣告計算的方式都能夠讓媒體的業者能夠有所掌握"},{"start":5779.381,"end":5785.486,"text":"不然我們就只是等待人家的施捨而已那這個是我在研究裡面的一個發現"},{"start":5787.5,"end":5815.976,"text":"那我現在在提供一些我個人在目前媒體經營上面的一些經驗來作為參考剛剛提到這個廣告流失其實說老實話很多人也會說那我們就是在市場的競爭之中敗退下來可是各位也知道就是我們研究發現裡面都會指出還有我們的產業界的朋友都會說其實平台上的內容都是我們提供的"},{"start":5817.096,"end":5843.288,"text":"那我們當然也願意用這樣的方式來換取各種可能的收入可是現在的狀況是什麼如果是臉書我永遠不知道我今天這一篇貼文到底觸及多少人我只看到數字我不知道為什麼這個演算法是不透明的YouTube也有類似的狀況我同樣的一個操作方式"},{"start":5844.383,"end":5872.151,"text":"可以前一個禮拜的流量是20萬30萬下一個禮拜突然降到5萬我不知道為什麼我不知道為什麼那這些演算法其實讓我們無所適從更重要的是他們來的分論永遠不告訴我這個比例到底是如何計算我的確有收到但是我不知道我為什麼拿到這樣的錢"},{"start":5874.008,"end":5882.545,"text":"那更不要說在我們溝通的過程裡面剛剛說我的確有收到其實我的同仁告訴我比方說我這邊要特別講一下臉書"},{"start":5885.203,"end":5911.924,"text":"臉書去年就是華視在跟臉書溝通的過程裡面他們曾經要我們提出就是一個商業的證明證明我是真正的一家合法經營的公司那這個當然對華視來說是有點天打雷就是說非常震撼因為我不知道我要去證明我是一家真正要再經營的公司所以我們就提供各種英文的譯本什麼然後到美國去總共"},{"start":5913.272,"end":5939.408,"text":"讓我們等了八個月我們才開始拿到收入我們在跟跨國業者的協商談判裡面遭遇非常非常多的困難其實都是因為我們的媒體的規模太小我無法跟他真正對等的協商這也是我要說的為什麼溢價這件事情雖然我認為非常合理而且應該要做但是以現在台灣媒體市場碎裂化的狀況下面讓"},{"start":5940.769,"end":5951.014,"text":"個別業者甚至是聯合會舉例來說電視學會所有無線電視的聯合會來跟他協商我們都沒有把握能夠"},{"start":5952.677,"end":5978.898,"text":"要到我們應有的權益這個是所有媒體業者都承認的那現在要怎麼做為什麼我說基金優先基金優先的意思就是由政府出面幫台灣的媒體跟大型的平台以及之後也許會更大的AI業者來做協商這才是我們在媒體業者看到的在整個產業裡面協商過程裡面看到的最好的出爐"},{"start":5979.518,"end":6002.21,"text":"所以我認為我們不只要雙軌制而且應該是基金優先 溢價作為後盾以上意見提供大家參考 謝謝謝謝我們劉昌德教授現在請非常關心我們本案的也是提案人之一的王洪威委員發言"},{"start":6009.923,"end":6028.994,"text":"好五分鐘五分鐘好趕快好我首先要謝謝我們林國成委員還有我們交通委員會在今天召開這場公聽會可以再聽到產官學對於我們的媒體溢價制度的立法大家再來做說明"},{"start":6029.674,"end":6057.257,"text":"那另外呢就是在6月12號我們已經看到了台灣媒體的非常特殊這次是包含新聞學界業界還有專業團體以及學生都聯合發表聲明也就代表大家認為這個立法事實上已經到了迫在眉睫的一個程度所以我們在現在在立法院我們都希望能夠加速修法的腳步"},{"start":6058.218,"end":6080.598,"text":"那另外呢 我先回一下剛才劉昌德教授所講的 就說希望用基金的制度那我的提案是用溢價 用強制溢價的方式那我跟大家提供一下 就是因為我們都持續關心所以呢 述發部呢 有回覆我的辦公室的資料 當然有關於這個媒體溢價的部分呢"},{"start":6081.318,"end":6107.205,"text":"不管是基金啊或者是用強制溢價其實速發部到目前為止都是反對的一個立場那特別是在基金制度的部分他的回覆是說這個基金制度模式需要穩定的收入來源他說課徵數位稅恐重複課稅而且現在美國政府保護美國科技產業可能招致貿易關稅報復所以現在採取基金的話"},{"start":6110.586,"end":6130.08,"text":"非常有可能授予包含我們的政府抒發部甚至美國政府的一個所謂的因為現在大家都知道在貿易戰所以我們在這個部分呢我們還是朝這個以強制溢價來做進行免得又被他們橫身肢解找到一些理由"},{"start":6131.121,"end":6155.474,"text":"因為剛才那個主席跟我講說大概三分鐘所以呢有關於大家所剛才提到的部分我這邊就不贅述包含就是台灣的數位廣告事實上大部分絕大部分都是被這個國外的這些社群平台所拿走那另外我覺得我特別提一下"},{"start":6156.394,"end":6166.762,"text":"就是在這樣的一個非常被壓榨的一個狀況之下其實台灣的媒體已經走入了一個其實非常不正常那麼"},{"start":6168.971,"end":6189.598,"text":"以每一早電子報在今年4月28號所發布的民調認為政治力介入媒體的受訪者高達70.8%所以連台灣大多數的民眾都知道我們的媒體被高度的政治力介入何以置之"},{"start":6191.599,"end":6209.859,"text":"我想我自己也是媒體出身 媒體都會希望有一個公平獨立的一個從業的環境但是呢 大家知道媒體生存越困難 它就越仰賴政府的媒體採購政府媒體採購越多 政治力介入就越深"},{"start":6210.76,"end":6227.128,"text":"政治力介入越深媒體的公信力就越低媒體公信力越低台灣的民主就越向下沉淪我相信所有不管來自於學界或業界的媒體朋友都可以同意我剛才所說的"},{"start":6227.802,"end":6255.103,"text":"所以如何去改變 除了讓我們的媒體專業應該要有合理的利潤也是在拯救說 台灣媒體公信力不能被這樣看輕 不是嗎然後在這邊 像無國界記者組織也指出但它也指出 其實很多國家的媒體都面臨這樣的一個生存越來越惡劣的一個環境"},{"start":6256.184,"end":6277.526,"text":"所以他也提到台灣媒體普遍為追求利潤所苦也造成公民沒有辦法獲得客觀的資訊這是現在的現存的狀況因為只有一點點時間 那我來趕快跟大家報告一下在我們的修法裡面 我剛才特別報告 我們是以強制溢價為主"},{"start":6279.088,"end":6306.084,"text":"但是呢未來在我們討論裡面我們可能會有以上的提案以下的提案那也歡迎所有今天與會者如果您關心或者覺得這樣的一個方向可能會造成你的重大損失或者是你覺得這不合理的地方也隨時歡迎跟我們辦公室聯絡好我們在我在原來提案裡面我們可能會做一些修正動議的部分是"},{"start":6306.804,"end":6324.495,"text":"譬如說剛才提到有關於AI大家都知道現在的這個AI生成模式其實也大量使用我們媒體的資料它是未來的趨勢那我們當時在提案的時候沒有把這一部分納入考慮所以這個部分可能是會在我們未來的在修正動議裡面再做把它納入"},{"start":6329.998,"end":6355.196,"text":"另外一個就是那有很多人認為強制溢價小型媒體就很慘啊他怎麼去溢價呢可能連在台灣數一數二或者都已經大家耳熟能詳的媒體都認為沒有能力所以呢我們未來也應該給小型媒體做聯合溢價的一個空間那這當然他就要排除一些現行的一個相關的法規那另外的部分呢就是"},{"start":6356.837,"end":6385.016,"text":"當媒體有分潤的時候那麼我們也希望提出一定的比例能夠直接落實到我們的真正的媒體從業者就是第一線的工作人員讓他們也可以分享到這個分潤的成果所以以下呢是我們可能在未來修法進入直接修法我們會有一些再修正動議的方向在這邊也先跟大家做一些預告"},{"start":6387.058,"end":6400.106,"text":"謝謝大家今天來參加公聽會也希望大家的一個力量支持我們能夠在這個立法上面能夠加速腳步那麼至少在國民黨團還有民眾黨團我們會盡量我們兩個黨團因為現在的我們的版本不一樣但是我們有絕大的誠意一起來討論出一個大家都比較可以接受的一個版本加速修法的進度以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6417.224,"end":6424.49,"text":"好 謝謝我們王宏威委員的花言現在請中國時報社長兼總編輯我們黃樹德社長花言"},{"start":6440.678,"end":6459.217,"text":"大家早安我是中國時報的社長兼總編輯我今天的發言是代表台北市報業工會台北市報業工會應該是台灣新聞媒體裡面的工會歷史最悠久 組織最健全的事情"},{"start":6460.819,"end":6477.739,"text":"因為我們的工會是一個民主制所有的決議都是經過工會代表的同意我想是這樣子就是說今天我們在講新聞有價這件事情我覺得應該是這樣說"},{"start":6479.861,"end":6493.255,"text":"就是一個國家新聞媒體報導的品質有關這個國家的民主政治的發展的基石也就是說這個國家有越多的優質的媒體這個國家會"},{"start":6496.138,"end":6522.057,"text":"越進步人民生活會更好所以今天我們講這個事情不是講一個產業也不是講一個公司我們在講的是中華民國的前途是台澎金馬2300萬人未來的幸福所以這個上面的主結構是這個樣子因為這個國家如果不進步這個國家如果不好我講最難聽的"},{"start":6524.191,"end":6542.058,"text":"中國時報好自由時報好聯合報好有什麼意義沒有意義我想這個是我們先要確認今天講這件事情是為了中華民國的民主發展的健全我們在做這個努力這個不是我們單一產業的利益"},{"start":6543.218,"end":6568.826,"text":"那一個優質的媒體要怎麼運作就很簡單他要有一個合理的我們講合理的收入合理啦因為我也不能說我今天投下一顆種子明天變成一個森林這叫做不合理這叫暴力這是過去可能在某種特定時代下的一個產物新聞媒體的要求很簡單訴求很簡單我種一顆種子下去"},{"start":6573.988,"end":6600.555,"text":"我不會要求說他長兩棵樹給我我只講一棵種子長一棵樹這就是一個合理的合理的一個收入有了合理的收入我們對新聞的從業人員才能夠改善他的生活跟工作條件剛才前面幾位學者因為也有在媒體工作的經驗他們都已經說了這個現在是薪水倒退路"},{"start":6601.815,"end":6625.262,"text":"各式各樣的勞動條件確實以我來看勞動條件確實是確實是在降低這是事實那這個降低的原因有很多有很多12345678910唯一的就是很簡單手伸到口袋裡面摸不到半毛錢"},{"start":6626.838,"end":6652.118,"text":"這就是現實 大家都不要去講那些吹牛的話說 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 那叫做本格規吹牛的話不要再講了今天要講的事情是 你今天剛剛跟我講修法是破布隆法有問題一二三四五那我就問你 那為什麼講這麼久都沒有任何的動作各個部會 為什麼沒有一個動作我們開始講的時候 沒有川普關稅啊"},{"start":6654.81,"end":6677.779,"text":"那你為什麼等到川普關聖你再跟我講有這個貿易不平衡的問題所以我的問題就是我們的答案就是做才是重點啦不做都假說的啦大家都不要吵架啦現在我們的問題就是每一個人都是大思想家每一個人都是演講家每一個人的口才都很好誰做啊沒有半個人做啊"},{"start":6683.069,"end":6697.782,"text":"媒體就是在這樣的方式溫水煮青蛙大家一個一個死掉現在可以看嘛大家可以去看我們最簡單的我們用雜誌來講以前7-11有兩個雜誌架專門放雜誌現在剩下一個雜誌架甚至沒有雜誌架為什麼因為死光光啊"},{"start":6708.564,"end":6732.947,"text":"以前的報紙是放在門口大家買十塊因為很便宜現在報紙在哪裡你知道嗎現在是說老闆我要買報紙他從後面拿一份出來這個就是一個產業的發展政府沒有看到嗎學者專家沒有看到嗎大家都看到了但是大家都事不關己尤其是政府相關的部門"},{"start":6734.721,"end":6738.062,"text":"現在的問題在這個地方所以我們當時在去年的十月份我們台北市報業工會有了一個共同的聲明這個共同聲明有獲得了"},{"start":6754.529,"end":6773.567,"text":"衛星工會還有中華民國電視學會裡面的中視民視跟台視的那個支持大家一起公佈了這個共同聲明這個共同聲明你說有沒有缺點有沒有缺失一定有但是我要跟各位講"},{"start":6775.243,"end":6785.136,"text":"這個都不重要你先做吧你事情不做你跟我講這個說問題有12345678910你什麼東西都沒有你跟我講問題幹嘛我現在在講解決問題的方式這個才是問題"},{"start":6792.064,"end":6813.555,"text":"所以這個事情因為我剛才已經講了媒體的報導是攸關我們這個國家的正常發展大家能想像嗎今天你們受到你們現在不管是政府單位或其他你知道一個新聞受到影響你們可能有人因此丟光你知道那個新聞是幾歲的人寫的嗎20歲的人什麼事情都不知道稀哩呼呼出來"},{"start":6819.254,"end":6847.357,"text":"這個國家為之震動這個是不是一件事是很多很多的這種事情這才是問題為什麼我們的國家這麼重要的事情結果被一些完全沒有工作經驗的甚至於對新聞不了解的人就稀哩呼呼操一操這個國家倒啦這是我們現在的問題媒體為什麼會找這些小朋友來做這件事很簡單嘛就沒辦法嘛 它比較小嘛"},{"start":6848.294,"end":6875.625,"text":"就是這樣子沒有什麼大道理大家都不用去吹牛說因為怎麼樣怎麼樣就是沒錢所以今天的問題是如果媒體再繼續這樣子下去沒有一個優質負責任的報導我們會怎麼辦這才是問題所以我在這邊我還是簡單向大家說明一下我們的聲明的內容我想因為這個是要準確所以我用照念的"},{"start":6877.626,"end":6892.355,"text":"一共同聲明人支持立法保護新聞媒體產業為落實新聞有價與公平競爭原則以強制溢價仲裁制度為主要立法精神二溢價仲裁因"},{"start":6893.556,"end":6916.343,"text":"依法尽快于一定时间内完成三除以价外若主张采基金拨补方式时大型数位平台及政府对基金的捐赠应有强制性且金额必须有明确标准因机构媒体与非机构媒体之编采自播人数及"},{"start":6917.603,"end":6942.599,"text":"营运成本相差悬殊基本基金应以媒体受雇人数为准依比例拨补且基于媒体自治自助原则基金之拨补应由参与我国新闻产业与大型数位平台对话会议之四大媒体工协会"},{"start":6944.2,"end":6959.473,"text":"這個包括台北市的報業工會台北市的雜誌工會中華民國電視學會中華民國衛星工會負責制定發放標準基金會僅為基本事務性運作無審查權與"},{"start":6962.415,"end":6989.107,"text":"補助金額之裁量前義務權組織審查委員會介入基金發放之審議五在大型數位平台不透明的演算及分論機制下世界各國新聞產業正逢前所未有變局因此立法的目的應在於改善整體新聞產業環境以促進共榮共好"},{"start":6991.771,"end":6995.137,"text":"與請國人共同正視這是以上的報告 謝謝各位"},{"start":6996.633,"end":7022.931,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃樹德社長的花言跟各位報告也稍等一下黃國昌委員花言完畢我們就休息十分鐘我們就休息十分鐘黃國昌委員花言完畢休息十分鐘那現在請聯合報系廖建祥經理花言"},{"start":7034.624,"end":7054.275,"text":"主席各位在場的老師還有那個部會的長官還有就是各位先進朋友們大家好我是那個聯合報法務室經理廖建祥那我今天也是代表那個報業工會來這邊跟各位講就是有關於就是三位政黨都有提出有關於強制溢價版本的一些建議"},{"start":7054.995,"end":7068.807,"text":"那在此之前呢 因為我們我 褒業工會跟衛星工會有臨時組了一個修法小組所以這個意見也是 就是兩工會的一個建議那因為我有簡報 可以投下簡報嗎可是這沒有出來"},{"start":7084.404,"end":7108.712,"text":"我們這邊的基本上就只有八個字啦就是新聞有價跟公平對待那新聞有價剛剛前面很多老師或者是現金豆精有講我就不再追溯了那公平對待這件事情其實就是很奇怪就是不管是可能有一些部會首長可能有跟一些數位平台業者有見過面但是我們那個產業學者或者是一些基層的媒體工作者有說"},{"start":7110.293,"end":7135.435,"text":"過去有曾經跟數位平台業者有在談判桌上面或者是私下交換意見的嗎其實基本上應該都會非常少所以數位平台就是一個不見的狀況那有一些輿論講說那你們媒體本來就是有既有的一些盈利的模式那為什麼你要去跟平台要錢那你們是不是因為這樣子就會狮子大開口跟滿天要價我這邊要再次的強調我們只要求一個公平對等的環境"},{"start":7136.175,"end":7154.339,"text":"那當然就是所謂談新聞媒體產業要繼續活下去但是我要更延伸講一個理想性就是說新聞媒體都是有永續經營的必要的那我們希望這部法律或者是乃至於我們剛剛討論的過程都希望是打造一個公平溢價的環境那接下來 再下一張"},{"start":7156.297,"end":7176.124,"text":"那接下來會有七點跟大家報告就是這部法律基本上依序它是有三階段的分別是議價協商跟調節程序跟仲裁程序那這邊的話也要呼籲數位平台業者就是說原則上這個不是媒體直接會排進去發動所謂的強制議價或者是協調或者是仲裁"},{"start":7176.684,"end":7194.515,"text":"如果說今天數位平台業者跟媒體已經私下談好了那本身媒體業者本來就是有這個權利是自己是不是可以要決定發動溢價權那我們這邊的話是建議說最後一關的仲裁程序應該建議要有一位仲裁人士新聞媒體或數位經濟領域的專業人士"},{"start":7197.717,"end":7212.044,"text":"那第二個的話是有關於主管機關因為其實過去的版本那包括就是相關的草案的版本都有不同的立法的不同的主管機關那我們曾經有看到的有所謂的文化部或者是書發部"},{"start":7213.064,"end":7233.481,"text":"那其實我們也可以這邊只是提出說可以歸零思考就是因為參考那個澳洲競爭澳洲的那個強制溢價法它本身是由澳洲競爭消費者保護委員會那它的那個它的機關的性質跟公平會類似那是不是這一部法律本質上面可以由公平交易委員會作為主管機關"},{"start":7235.014,"end":7250.408,"text":"那第三個就是強化要求數位平台人的義務現在就不點名哪一些數位平台業者那以現在國內大型的數位平台業者就我之前上網查的資料其中有一家他在經濟部商業司根本沒有登記"},{"start":7251.209,"end":7274.841,"text":"他只有在國稅局只有一個稅級的資料那甚至有其他大型平台公司在台灣雖然有設立分公司但實際上面他總是回覆我們媒體業者就說這個業務是美國總公司的我的業務是負責其他們可能有其他的數位服務所以基本上這個相關的資訊應該都是要讓他強化避免他沒有那個過敝任何的責任"},{"start":7276.28,"end":7299.27,"text":"那再來就是三個黨團相關的所謂的轉載的方式原則上都沒有明定那各位知道說為什麼我們會長期的數位廣告營收的被瓜分這個市場失靈的現象它的轉載方式可能有很多第一個可能是用超連結它有可能是用標題有可能是生成摘要它實在琳瑯滿目那我們本身在談溢價之前"},{"start":7301.591,"end":7314.218,"text":"這兩年AI又跑出來所以AI的侵害它其實又花樣更多所以我們會認為說明定轉載方式基本上要貫徹新聞有價數位平台必須付費的概念好 下一張"},{"start":7315.239,"end":7339.154,"text":"那再來是有關於資訊揭露那這個非常的重要因為現在的版本只有在仲裁階段他才是希望數位平台業者可以提供相關的資料才可以作為一個協商的基礎但是各位不要忘記了我們還有所謂的前階段就是溢價還有所謂的調解階段那這個資料大部分全部都是掌握在數位平台業者手上我們媒體根本沒有"},{"start":7339.554,"end":7353.724,"text":"包含剛剛前面的先進跟學者講的所謂的演算法等等他們都不告訴我們所以我們會希望說應該在議價跟調解的過程當中他就要提供給主管機關跟新聞媒體相關的議價協商的資料作為可以談判的基礎"},{"start":7354.725,"end":7379.898,"text":"那再來就是有關於仲裁判斷那仲裁判斷的話我們會認為說應該要參考數位平台經營者數位服務的總營收這一個大數字才可以就是坦白講就是我們希望是備而不用它應該是一個歸零思考就是這個總數字作為一個最後仲裁判斷的基礎那期許在雙方在前階段就可以完成溢價協商不要走到仲裁程序"},{"start":7380.598,"end":7395.137,"text":"那剛剛前面也有學者提到說目前現在的法環5萬到50萬其實實在是太少了那我們會建議說應該要參考其他相關的傳播的法律提高不配合本法的義務之行政法環的金額"},{"start":7396.141,"end":7417.719,"text":"那這邊的話另外還有點時間我要跟各位稍微談一下目前AI對於媒體產業的衝擊那原則上第一個我要講的是模型訓練期在這邊我可以跟各位的與會的就是夥伴們報告基本上私下數位平台業者都已經說了大家都太晚"},{"start":7418.419,"end":7438.707,"text":"我現在所有現在大家正在用的就是所謂的AI的模型他該拿的他該學的都已經學完了他現在其實就是一個等同於18歲甚至一個22歲畢業的一個學生的腦袋那實際上面這一個部分我們確實是太晚了那為什麼國外的立法譬如說紐時啊或者是美聯社等等的可以"},{"start":7439.287,"end":7463.81,"text":"提告之後後面再私下和解那其實是在前期跟初期就是大家知道的所謂的CHAP GPT的三以下的版本確實有可能產生所謂的所謂AI幻覺或者是不知道為什麼它跑出來的內容就會跟媒體很像但是這個階段已經過去了那另外的話現在我們現在所用的那個CHAP GPT如果你用"},{"start":7465.194,"end":7491.096,"text":"你如果跟他講說我要找的是比如說今天6月12號的新聞它實際上面它其實是用RAG增生的技術然後透過搜尋網頁跑出來的這個是我們現在更關切的因為它本身也會造成我們媒體的流量的喪失那所以未來的話應該是要著重在這一塊的運用那甚至期待這個剛剛已經也有委員講就期待這部的法律可以把前階段模型訓練期它"},{"start":7492.597,"end":7520.037,"text":"大量的掠奪或是爬梳媒體相關的資料那我們可以去做一個一價協商那以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們聯合報系廖建祥經理的花言現在我們請非常關心也是這個案的起草非常關心的我們黃國昌委員來花言時間五分鐘"},{"start":7528.306,"end":7536.701,"text":"謝謝召委一開始想先利用這個時間跟今天所有與會學者專家還有我們媒體界的先進說聲謝謝"},{"start":7540.104,"end":7568.279,"text":"謝謝你們利用自己這麼寶貴的時間幫這一部重要的法律案今天所提出來的提綱提出了非常多具體的建言這些建言一定在我們接下來審議的過程當中會納入考慮相對的我對於今天的行政部門所提出來的書面報告我只有四個字叫失望透頂"},{"start":7569.841,"end":7579.487,"text":"叫失望透頂請你們自己打開你們今天交來的報告四個提綱只有書面報告裡面全部都在寫空話全部都在寫空話說邀集各地方利害關係的人來討論來研議我講不客氣啦"},{"start":7593.191,"end":7618.319,"text":"我請Chair的GPT針對這四個提綱啊討出來的內容啊比你們主管機關所提出來的書面報告啊都還要具體完成啊我也建議召委啊以後開這種會行政機關啊交這種敷衍了事的報告直接拖回去啊請他們重寫啊開什麼玩笑啊這件事情拖延多久了拖延多久了"},{"start":7622.145,"end":7637.016,"text":"拖到今天報告還在打官腔打太極四個提綱你們之前沒有看到嗎你們回去對一下你們今天加上來的報告有回應這四個提綱具體的提問嗎強制議價的立場是什麼設置基金的立場是什麼各個黨團委員所提出來的版本有哪些不足"},{"start":7650.191,"end":7668.296,"text":"從行政機關的立場認為需要修改需要補強建議的修正條文要不要提出來通通沒有交這種報告啊我不客氣的講啊浪費紙張傷害地球啊一堆垃圾招委人好啊這種報告都收如果是我前一天拿到我退回去要你們重寫啊"},{"start":7681.428,"end":7694.696,"text":"你們對照一下人家沒有領錢來參加公定會的專家學者寫的報告再看看你們行政機關交上來的報告 可以看喔丟人現眼台灣民眾黨黨團的立場非常清楚強制溢價 設立基金 雙軌制我們都支持"},{"start":7708.149,"end":7726.579,"text":"法條的內容有不足有需要修改有需要精進台灣民眾黨黨團敞開心胸我們接受社會各界的指教在接下來具體立法的過程當中到最後二讀三讀表決通過為止"},{"start":7728.767,"end":7751.045,"text":"歡迎大家提供具體的建議給我們這件事情台灣民眾黨黨團說到做到絕對不會虎頭蛇尾更不會像執政黨一樣一開始敲鑼打鼓現在呢就持續研議我不客氣的講我現在只要聽到民進黨政府說要研議啊我聽這兩個字就怕了"},{"start":7752.179,"end":7770.649,"text":"我聽這兩個字就怕了當民進黨政府說要研議我把它轉化成真實的語言就是我沒有要做就是我沒有要做我希望這一次主管機關能夠用行動證明我今天在公聽會講的是錯的我要特別說今天這麼多的學者專家"},{"start":7777.41,"end":7805.562,"text":"這麼多基層的新聞工作者大家站出來大聲疾呼是知道我國新聞媒體的環境非常惡劣非常惡劣惡劣到什麼程度我兩位非常敬重新聞界的前輩我雖然是一個法律學者但是過去因為參加公民運動步入叢林所以跟媒體跟新聞有非常密切的互動關係"},{"start":7807.52,"end":7829.318,"text":"我還在中研院任職的時候就曾經是狗仔24小時高規格追蹤的對象也被高規格的對待過所以我非常了解新聞的專業自主對於一個讓閱聽人有品質的新聞報導這件事情有多重要"},{"start":7830.877,"end":7857.803,"text":"過去這十幾年我看到台灣新聞媒體的發展我只有四個字叫做痛心疾首痛心疾首我為什麼痛心疾首我沒有辦法寫的比我兩位敬重新聞界的前輩林立雲教授跟王維京教授我沒有辦法寫的比他們更好所以請容許我今天在公聽會裡面把他們的聲明唸一次納入立法院公報的紀錄"},{"start":7859.195,"end":7882.191,"text":"台灣新聞頻道市場過度競爭 獲益分散新聞台仰賴業配 置入及政府標案甚至逐步形成台灣正媒共商集團透過政治與媒體影響力除戒土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事個案與政策"},{"start":7883.973,"end":7912.952,"text":"台灣新聞頻道正媒集團化與高度政治化讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具不公正的新聞報導及節目也導致台灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期世界排名倒數為台灣民主的另外一個危機我相信不僅僅是我非常多的閱聽人甚至現在在網路上面關心這場記者會也就是我們接下來"},{"start":7914.173,"end":7935.04,"text":"我們想要我們想要能夠去說服他們來一起支持這個媒體議價法的一般社會大眾心有所感心有所感所以我剛剛聽到有學者專家一開始起手式就非常好誰是媒體非常重要的問題有沒有編輯式相關的規範"},{"start":7943.953,"end":7963.539,"text":"不是只有明文的規範編輯式的規範到底有沒有落實有沒有accountability新聞產製的流程是什麼這都是新聞學我相信是基本的ABC但問題是台灣現在的新聞有嗎有嗎"},{"start":7966.755,"end":7988.006,"text":"在自媒體競爭很激烈的年代剛剛有學者說啊館長那個不能稱為是新聞我跟館長很熟啊他從來也沒有希望他自己那個叫做新聞他很謙虛啦很客氣他基本上就是講他想講的話做一個評論員嘛到我離開立法院以後我2020年離開立法院以後"},{"start":7991.067,"end":8009.927,"text":"我成立一個協會我也在做自媒體我做自媒體在做什麼在揭發社會的弊案從綠能光電貪腐的案子到科學成物流的案子我自己花了很多時間、精力去把這些弊案"},{"start":8011.57,"end":8034.335,"text":"做成YT的影像因為我是為了公益而做的所以其他媒體引用其他媒體直接用我那個調查報導的內容因為我本來就沒有要獲益我只覺得榮譽但我知道一個深度的調查報導到底要投入多少時間多少精力我們在討論有關於媒體溢價的時候"},{"start":8037.271,"end":8062.45,"text":"此時同時借這個機會好好反省台灣目前正媒集團的亂象甚至媒體成為政治的打手跟工具以及我們新聞產製品質第一線的同仁非常的辛苦我們大家都可以理解但是在這些產製有多少是來自高層的指令啊"},{"start":8063.442,"end":8086.061,"text":"大老闆吃香喝辣開發土地牟利跟政治人物光籌交錯基層的新聞工作者累到爆肝還要接受上面的壓力跟指示請問這樣子的新聞這叫假新聞我很好奇說我們三體預數11億的預算這個新聞是怎麼出來的"},{"start":8089.329,"end":8097.616,"text":"這個新聞是怎麼出來這有經過我們的編輯式規範產生出來的新聞嗎做了這個假新聞到今天都還沒有道歉甚至什麼濫用媒體的公器我已經搞不清楚這是新聞主播還是個人加上媒體老闆的政治宣傳工具"},{"start":8116.129,"end":8138.365,"text":"肆意的抹黃 毫無事實根據一樣啊 到今天有道歉嗎到今天有道歉嗎說柯文哲在LINE 在微信有把妹的對話 非常露骨我很好奇 這樣的新聞要一起分論嗎要視聽大眾父前嗎我不知道"},{"start":8145.046,"end":8149.405,"text":"我們作為民意代表 正確的事情我們一定堅持到底"},{"start":8150.473,"end":8177.328,"text":"與此同時我希望台灣的新聞真正走向專業獨立自主就像每一個新聞人的靈魂一樣我要報導真實我要發掘弊案我要扮演第四權的角色我要作為掌權者最佳的防腐劑我相信這是絕大多數台灣人民共同支持的事情在邁向這個目標"},{"start":8179.943,"end":8200.178,"text":"媒體新聞報導有價付費讓我們基層的新聞工作者能夠得到更好的待遇這樣子的方向台灣民眾黨黨團不管遭遇到什麼樣的客觀環境遭遇到什麼樣子的對待我們一樣會堅持理念支持到底謝謝大家"},{"start":8202.682,"end":8217.327,"text":"謝謝我們黃國昌總召在這裡特別提醒我們主管機關總召所講的這些都是事實不要平常我對大家客氣是一個尊重"},{"start":8218.007,"end":8240.768,"text":"但是在審查預算我已經講得很清楚你們逃避不了我們該怎麼做就是怎麼做但是我還是要拜託我們主管機關一定要很重視這件事那我也希望今天各位協責專家我們總召已經講得很清楚總召非常堅持"},{"start":8242.209,"end":8249.553,"text":"這個法案要繼續推下去所以我們現在耽擱大家時間我們就休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8857.625,"end":8864.568,"text":"好各位協助專家跟我們所有官員請大家請就座好我們繼續開會現在請我們自由報系我們黃秋賢專員來報告"},{"start":8895.185,"end":8914.839,"text":"各位主席長官教授們好我是自由時報法務專員黃秋璇自由時報聯合報跟中國時報都屬於台北市報業工會所以我們的想法就如中國時報黃樹的社長所述建議部分也猶如剛剛聯合報料件想法務經理的部分"},{"start":8916.56,"end":8938.568,"text":"我最希望的是雖然我們的建議是主管機關是公平會但因為現在大家都有提到AI的關係所以我們還是希望能會同數位發展部來處理相關AI的資料所以希望能夠改法外可以強化保障新聞媒體還有打造公平對待的環境謝謝大家"},{"start":8945.063,"end":8972.112,"text":"好謝謝我們自由報系的黃秋顯專員那接下來請台灣科技大學專利研究所黃泰蘭教授黃教授呢還在外面嗎給他找一下"},{"start":8979.377,"end":8979.617,"text":"黃泰蘭教授"},{"start":9015.889,"end":9031.746,"text":"各位委員還有各位專業學者抱歉我剛剛去上一下廁所所以就耽誤大家一下時間我現在在台科大任教然後我也是中研院聖城市AI風險委員小組的委員然後我之前有參加"},{"start":9034.008,"end":9061.119,"text":"那個GPAY就是一個全球那個人工智能合作組織的一個報告的那個撰寫那它是一個OECD下的那個組織所以我今天會比較針對就是關於大家可能比較關心的那個深層次AI的部分對這個這個法案的這個法案在這邊的影響就對了然後我早上其實看了那個就是我早上查了一下川普的新聞嘛那我就叫OpenAI幫我找一下今天川普有什麼新聞"},{"start":9062.179,"end":9079.557,"text":"然後呢他就列了那個新聞在那個新聞在我的手機上openAI上面然後他就會列說今天川普做什麼事什麼事情然後他有他的source這樣子然後呢如果我對一個使用者來講我覺得這個好像是一個很好用的那個新聞的那個取得手段嘛然後其實他還會幫你做摘要然後會做那個"},{"start":9080.498,"end":9095.013,"text":"那個來源然後他最後就是所以其實我可以預見到未來就是很多人會使用這個方式去去做這個AI的使用用AI做這個使用然後大家就是我們先從一些法律的角度來講本身就是"},{"start":9095.894,"end":9123.943,"text":"那個從這個OpenAR如果我去使用它的東西然後來闡述這個新聞的摘要它會不會侵害就是說就是大家很辛苦去闡述的這個新聞內容了其實就法律來講它本身它可能還是有爭議的因為它雖然有一個替代的效果但是在著作權上我不知道大家各位知不知道有所謂的合理使用的概念所以它其實某個程度來講它可能是有合理使用的空間的就是即使在這個狀況下大家可能覺得"},{"start":9125.023,"end":9144.656,"text":"不太公平的狀況所以其實某個程度來講他其實可能就權力如果構成合理使用的話其實就是沒有損害賠償問題所以他其實就是等於就是說其實平台本身如果是最後他的這個行為是構成合理使用的話他就是沒有著作權賠償的問題那從這個失權的角度來講好像就不需要去"},{"start":9145.396,"end":9165.65,"text":"害這個新聞業者可能好像沒有這個角度去去做這件事情要求溢價但是其實我們在想就是說其實著作權法它不只是在保護著作權利益它其實本身也是在促進公共利益那為什麼我們新聞就是為什麼我們會這麼在意這個溢價這個產業其實一個原因這個溢價這個政策其實是因為我想是因為新聞媒體它本身"},{"start":9167.151,"end":9191.978,"text":"我們不是在乎說中國時報賺了多少錢自由時報賺了多少錢或者是說什麼賺了多少錢其實我們在乎這個新聞的品質跟價值它對我們的民主社會有很大的影響簡單講就從經濟學角度來講它有很多的外部性正面的外部性當然它也可能產生負面的外部性所以我們希望透過這個方式透過這個議價的方式法案議價的方式去使用這樣子"},{"start":9193.018,"end":9219.393,"text":"我這邊只是提出一些意見就是說我看了那個條文的版本然後我現在有點擔心就是說如果照這個版本通過之後其實搞不好是完全沒有辦法規範到我剛剛講那個OpenAI就是請他摘要那個新聞的規範因為現在的版本這個版本可能是那個時候可能大部分我想應該都是參考以前加拿大或澳洲那跟他們手寫的手寫才沒有生成是AI那種東西所以這個版本裡面他講的都是什麼轉載"},{"start":9220.936,"end":9240.055,"text":"轉載然後如果有利用媒體這個轉載的時候它可能就有一個問題可是其實生成是AI它最後產生出給我的內容那個它不是轉載它是透過它把它的那個東西重置到它的資料庫裡面它生成出來的東西是它自己照那個機器去生成出來的所以依照這個法案大家可能很急切想要通過"},{"start":9241.553,"end":9265.902,"text":"可是一通過之後呢就是可能到最後其實完全那個規範到的是以前會轉載的那種東西但是如果大家利用深層CI那個工具來講可能完全規範不到那這個部分就是其實是我覺得這個法案的內容它是需要再調整跟修整的不然就是這個法案一立出來大家花那麼多心力結果就馬上失去它的意義就是這點是大家需要去思考的"},{"start":9266.562,"end":9294.238,"text":"然後再來就是說另外一點就是在那個法案裡面它其實因為剛剛各位那個先進有講就是說我們是希望這個新聞媒體可以做一些原創的內容的著作嘛都不希望新聞媒體如果本身它也是抄來抄去還給它議價這樣所以其實那個法案裡面有一些就是使用說什麼原創性新聞報導這樣子但是因為原創性新聞報導本身它在這個法案裡面我沒有很仔細看到好像沒有對原創性有定義"},{"start":9295.279,"end":9323.225,"text":"可是如果到時候沒有定義到時候如果是用著作權法原創的定義的話那其實是很低的就其實你只要自己寫就好就是所以那個會有一些問題所以我覺得這邊可能這個定義的這個也要斟酌這樣子然後我這邊還要再補充一下就是說那個可能就是我知道在座大部分都是新聞的業者這樣子所以都會把就是深層次AI感覺就是來會略讀到新聞業者的工作這樣子"},{"start":9323.945,"end":9337.057,"text":"但是我覺得我們在區分這個深層CI的時候應該要分兩個層面來講一種是這個深層CI它可能這個工具或者它可以產出類似新聞內容的摘要跟內容所以它其實這個時候它跟新聞平台是在一個競爭的狀態那這個時候我覺得用議價是很合理的"},{"start":9340.6,"end":9354.53,"text":"但是有時候但是我們知道生成資料它可以做很多的事情所以它在做很多的事情它為什麼可以做很多的事情是因為它拿了大家很多資料去訓練嘛對不對所以大家訓練的時候這個東西它其實不一定它生產自如來內可能不一定是跟新聞業者它產生競爭關係的那這個時候我們如果"},{"start":9357.552,"end":9383.848,"text":"要求說只要生成是平台他只要有用到新聞資料他全部都要去透過這個議價化我覺得就是其實某個方面來講會我覺得會會有個問題在於說我不知道大家知不知道那個那個一兩年前就是那個中研院有一位研究員他發展出了一個AI的系統然後呢結果那個有人就去問說這個中華民國總統是誰嗎那大家可能不知道記得不記得但是他的回答就是習近平"},{"start":9384.668,"end":9400.878,"text":"那為什麼會回答習近平的原因就是因為中國他提供的資料他都是開放授權的所以他去抓那個資料的時候是很容易去抓的所以我在這邊想要講的就是說如果我們在這個溢價的部分我們可能是希望說新聞是有價沒錯但如果真的新聞有價之後最後Google他都去抓環球時報的新聞"},{"start":9402.259,"end":9421.086,"text":"對不對 然後最後產生出來的內容或者他也不是產生那個新聞內容而是你在問他其他的事情因為他的背景來源是要很多可能是不需要請環球時報的內容他可能沒有要他授權所以他就依賴大量依賴這樣子那最後我們的那個現在很多就是我的學生什麼他都很利用CheckGP去問很多很多事情"},{"start":9421.946,"end":9437.701,"text":"那這樣其實會影響到我覺得對這個民主也是很大的影響所以其實我覺得在這個部分我們應該還是要分層次來講就是如果深層次AI它是在跟新聞它產生出的內容是跟新聞業者它有競爭關係的話這個時候是有議價沒有關係但如果是單純訓練的話"},{"start":9441.485,"end":9467.054,"text":"因為其實單純拿新聞來訓練的可能不一定是Google大家想像的平台可能搞不好國內業者也想要做對不對平台自己也想要做研究者也想要做那這些東西如果全部把它跟新聞平台綁在一起那個話就會我覺得會我們現在國大台灣也是要發展AI要發展主權AI所以我覺得這個問題也是需要去再再比較更細緻的去去討論對好那我的發言就到此結束好謝謝大家"},{"start":9468.094,"end":9482.52,"text":"好謝謝我們台科大的黃泰蘭教授現在請也非常關心我們媒體議價的法案的麥義貞委員來發言時間五分鐘謝謝主席各位先進各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":9498.271,"end":9499.553,"text":"很感謝各位先進願意把時間撥下來一起來討論我們今天也很開心可以和大家一起參與新聞媒體議價立法的公聽會"},{"start":9512.035,"end":9532.069,"text":"現在我們不管年輕還是任何人每一個人手上都有一支手機有的人還是兩三支手機所以網際網路的普及早已經讓各類的數位科技平台快速崛起"},{"start":9533.03,"end":9543.036,"text":"民眾介紹新聞的管道也因此不在極限 通過典型的傳統媒體更多時候就是通過人口的網"},{"start":9545.356,"end":9552.64,"text":"網路社群平台就是自媒體甚至說在年輕一代的日常你早已經習慣連上班日的都是很少見到老闆都不會打招呼不會請假都是用手機來去說跟你請假這個是很日常的生活習慣所以呢但是我們的數位科技平台呢也引起就是"},{"start":9572.19,"end":9594.287,"text":"用了媒體業產出的新聞內容 卻沒有將演算法及分認的方法的透明化不必繳稅 卻可以依據演算法的扯起廣告的收益短短幾年之間 兩大國外數位的平台的廣告收益已經將"},{"start":9595.888,"end":9611.693,"text":"台灣數位廣告收益的整體的六至八成也隨著科技快速的進步生成AI平台的應用更進一步改變了我們媒體生態這樣的傾向導致新聞媒體產業廣告"},{"start":9618.675,"end":9620.936,"text":"營收大幅的下降也變成就是逼迫媒體為了吸引更多眼球對產業產出的內容的精準度還有妥協惡化媒體的環境不斷的被破壞的媒體第四權的該有的功能"},{"start":9643.109,"end":9650.053,"text":"這樣惡化的循環在國際間早有其他立法可供台灣參考就像說歐洲2021年的通過的新聞媒體和數位科技平台強制性的議價法每年因此多注入了約41億的台幣金"},{"start":9669.725,"end":9680.467,"text":"資金 顯示一家法的立法是有必要 且大幅改善新聞媒體業的目前的究竟"},{"start":9682.571,"end":9697.031,"text":"好另外呢我們台灣民眾黨有提出草案版本參考加拿大立法經驗設立數位新聞發展基金建構更優質的新聞環境通過"},{"start":9700.015,"end":9714.756,"text":"提拨一定金额的方式鼓励更严创更高值的新闻内容媒体第四权是民主社会与参与政治不可缺的一环"},{"start":9716.144,"end":9732.424,"text":"肩負有監督公權力的義務數位平台崛起改變了資訊流向讓民眾快速取得多元資訊的來源但並不能因此"},{"start":9733.465,"end":9736.767,"text":"忽視了傳統媒體的價值與永續發展的重要為了確保新聞有價值並合理分論與公平的競爭維護新聞的公信力和新聞媒體人的勞動權益今天各位專家學者"},{"start":9755.115,"end":9774.614,"text":"集聚一談期望能藉由各界提出寶貴的意見讓這個步伐更完善更周延守護低失權刻不容緩希望通過立法推手打造更公平更合理更健康新聞媒體的生態讓我們"},{"start":9778.718,"end":9783.58,"text":"學習的時候看新聞讓我們像我們新住民在台灣學中文還有學講中文大部分都是看新聞媒體因為我們台灣很重要的是不管任何的新聞或者任何的"},{"start":9800.727,"end":9829.675,"text":"我們的連續劇不管只要在電視顯示出來就有有講有文字的證明這個是我們在台灣外國人學中文的重要的第一步所以希望我們的新聞就是要有就是公平還有就是明確讓我們的人民在看新聞是學到東西也知道我們政府在做什麼這個部分我們也是強烈的希望說合法合理"},{"start":9830.575,"end":9847.46,"text":"有權利公平謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們麥義貞委員他來關心這個案那接下來我們請藝師科技法律事務所賴文智首長請發言OK"},{"start":9860.851,"end":9882.331,"text":"主席各位專家學者各位來賓大家好那我想就是感覺上大家方向是往媒體溢價那事實上媒體溢價會遇到蠻多的困難的就像剛剛新聞的從業的就是人員在說其實在台灣就算大的媒體對於"},{"start":9883.972,"end":9909.874,"text":"跨國的媒體跨國的這個平台業者而言其實我們還是很小的更何況這是台灣的內部還有其他各式各樣的媒體那從這個法律我想我從幾個角度跟大家做一下分享第一個就是說媒體議價的法律的基礎是什麼平台的業者或服務的業者"},{"start":9911.192,"end":9931.545,"text":"為什麼要跟你議價為什麼要跟你議價你必須要有一個法律的依據那主要可能來自兩塊要不你就是比較偏著作權的角度要不就是偏不公平競爭的角度那我們的這個議價的基礎應該是在法律裡面做一個說明"},{"start":9932.205,"end":9955.52,"text":"不然的話其實業者他做出的反應可能就會變成是最多我就這樣處罰那這個處罰並不是我們的目的所以我們應該先考慮清楚就是說今天新聞媒體去跟這些不管是網路平台業者或是AI業者去做溢價的時候那你的"},{"start":9956.44,"end":9982.799,"text":"權力的基礎在哪裡那如果今天是基於著作權那應該要講清楚如果是因為產業競爭不公平競爭的考慮那這個也應該要講清楚那當然如果主要是因為產業競爭不公平競爭的話那可能主管機關也許不太適合由速發部來負責而應該是放回去公民會這是第一個"},{"start":9983.499,"end":9989.424,"text":"那第二個這部法律應該要考慮就是說實際制度實施之後可能的狀況"},{"start":9991.429,"end":10017.831,"text":"舉個例子來說好了那其實國外有相應的例子嘛比如說像Google News他就決定要退出歐洲那現在即使是澳洲那他們也會考慮就是說我還要不要繼續來議價還是說乾脆我就停掉澳洲的新聞的這個相關的搜尋或者是這個社群的分享那這個事情是我們沒有辦法"},{"start":10018.331,"end":10038.045,"text":"就是只有從我們一廂情願的角度去思考別人一定會配合那這個事情是要考慮的如果他要退出台灣或者是停止提供特定的服務那這個時候對我們來說影響是什麼我覺得這個是要考慮的"},{"start":10039.306,"end":10066.9,"text":"那另外就是說目前我們的這個立法其實是已經有點舊了現在服務的型態包括剛剛有先進提到AI的狀況其實都跟立法的描述其實是不太一致的如果想要把比較未來的這個狀況放進去可能我們現在的法律是的草案是不太足夠的"},{"start":10067.94,"end":10090.473,"text":"但是我們必須去承認就是說產業環境確實因為網路因為AI的關係受到了改變同樣是廣告的這個形態過往可能廣告是足以支持包括電視媒體包括新聞媒體可是"},{"start":10092.535,"end":10104.791,"text":"現在可能不夠那大家可能覺得說那網路的搜尋或者是社群的媒體掠奪了原先該屬於就是內容或者是新聞"},{"start":10106.345,"end":10130.763,"text":"的這些廣告的收入但其實我們要從另外一個角度來看一個是說其實我們如果沒有網路的業者他根本沒有這一塊的廣告的市場的存在所以其實他並不是完全的掠奪他也創造了新的廣告的市場這個我們也必須要去承認那甚至你看AI出來了之後"},{"start":10131.443,"end":10143.609,"text":"現在比如說像Google做AI的摘要或者是說我們用ChopGPT我們選擇說它可以用搜尋或者是深入的這個研究的這些功能"},{"start":10144.608,"end":10171.309,"text":"好那其實他根本完全就跳過了廣告連什麼連原先的網路的廣告的這個市場都會受到侵蝕也就是說如果我們只看網路廣告這個市場的話沒有去考慮AI的狀況的話那這部立法他最後就會面臨到就是說他能夠收到的錢是越來越少為什麼因為最後網路廣告市場可能也消失了可能也消失了"},{"start":10171.949,"end":10194.618,"text":"好那我們回過頭來我們在談就是因為我自己對租用權比較熟啦我們租用權會談一個東西叫使用者付費剛剛新聞媒體也有提到就是說沒錯新聞是有價的應該要去付費的可是誰來付這個費用我們現在的走向比較會偏向是說我們感覺好像是"},{"start":10196.058,"end":10212.549,"text":"網路的搜尋引擎啊這個社群的媒體好像搶了原先屬於這個新聞媒體該有的廣告的收入我個人沒有這樣想我覺得他們是搭便車沒有錯可是我們也需要他們提供的這個新的服務我必須去強調一個就是說難道"},{"start":10215.171,"end":10240.541,"text":"你作為每一個個別的使用者你沒有因為搜尋服務沒有因為社群媒體服務沒有因為AI服務受益嗎所以你要去想的就是說那誰要去付費其實當然他們是卡住了一個就是Gateway就是說他確實影響力很大可是他一定是說他就是唯一的受益者嗎你就是要求他把"},{"start":10241.061,"end":10264.623,"text":"他獲利吐出來然後這個才是公平嗎我覺得有去想過一件事情就是說真正使用者真正獲益的人也包括全體的國民也就是說像新聞新聞當然我也承認新聞媒體是重要的我們也要給他特別的保護可是是這一部法律就可以解決新聞媒體現在遇到的困境嗎我們想要把"},{"start":10265.023,"end":10289.604,"text":"新聞媒體業者遇到的困境全部放在這部法律裡面其實已經超過這部法律他應該承載的所以我們應該去想清楚就是說那我們的目的是什麼如果其實最後獲益的是全體的使用者那其實應該去考慮一下就是說付費的這個角度應該是可以考慮從別的角度去做思考也就是說我不是跟你Google要錢"},{"start":10291.479,"end":10308.781,"text":"Google可能是負責一個待收或待增的這個角度那我為什麼提這個是因為我過去協助經濟部資格參與局做了一個著作權相關的研究叫做權補償金的制度的研究那研究比較久了是在"},{"start":10310.102,"end":10328.33,"text":"在94年的時候做的但是那個制度也是《作權法》裡面一個非常複雜的制度然後各國的實施的狀況也不一樣我覺得跟現在我們在談的媒體議價很像但是我覺得那樣子的一個制度其實是可以作為我們今天在討論這個議題的參考"},{"start":10330.624,"end":10347.067,"text":"也就是說我個人認為就是如果要收費其實我們可以去講我收費的基礎其實是代徵或代收也就是說呢媒體因為不好意思再給我30秒就好就是說使用者他的"},{"start":10348.732,"end":10369.424,"text":"他其實是為了他使用各式各樣的服務獲益那業者他我們可以說我跟你業者收錢其實是帶向使用者收費好那那這看你業者要怎麼跟使用者收那這樣子比較不會引起所有的貿易障礙的問題那至於收來的錢呢其實我個人不"},{"start":10369.844,"end":10384.674,"text":"不是覺得說溢價是一件好事因為其實個別的溢價其實成本是很高的也許是統一收了一個統一的基金然後國內的業者再去看怎麼去做分配也許是比較好的"},{"start":10385.514,"end":10405.891,"text":"那我想就是那至于AI的问题我认为就是说可能不要去谈训练的问题因为训练的问题其实真的太晚了我们应该反而应该鼓励AI的业者尽可能跟新闻媒体业者做串接提供好的服务大家一起去做分论那也许这样子其实是比较好的方向所以我觉得就是不要把压力都给在"},{"start":10406.98,"end":10429.702,"text":"就是覺得好像網路的業者社群的媒體AI的服務業者都是壞人我們要從他身上把該有的錢挖回來我覺得就是說其實我們也需要這些服務但是怎麼樣讓他們更喜歡用新聞用台灣的新聞其實這個是我們要考慮而不是把他們趕出去所以其實應該是這個機制應該要促成他們跟新聞業者合作謝謝"},{"start":10431.732,"end":10439.107,"text":"好 謝謝我們賴文智首長現在請林肇真教授花言"},{"start":10446.449,"end":10461.454,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家 我的發言其實在第十頁開始那請大家可以看第十頁 那我主要是針對我們今天交通委員會提出的四個提綱來"},{"start":10467.068,"end":10480.286,"text":"提出我的一些建議首先回應剛才賴文智所長提到的我想我們今天這個法很重要它的精神確實是在媒體的著作權受到傷害"},{"start":10480.967,"end":10505.685,"text":"另外就是我們這部法律是為了新聞媒體而訂定的並不是為了全體國民我想首先先確立這兩個原則好那我根據這個提綱第一個就是關於主管機關他的權責法制化跟推動的進程我想說一下我的經驗其實我們在2021年底我們就已經去拜會了行政院政務委員那時候是郭耀黃"},{"start":10506.465,"end":10531.182,"text":"他那時候就提到就是在行政院的規劃裡面主責機關是速發部然後在接下來速發部成立之後我們不斷的跟速發部公平交易委員會協商其實他們都還是覺得不清楚主管機關是誰一直到速發部要再重新那個改組的時候還是認為速發部未必是"},{"start":10531.943,"end":10551.288,"text":"他們的這個法律的主管機關然後我們就去拜訪行政院副院長那他提到民進黨內部已經決定速發布式主管機關但是我們在去年的8月再去拜訪黃燕南部長他說交接的時候從來沒有跟他講過這件事"},{"start":10552.308,"end":10570.479,"text":"所以他不認為他是主管機關然後在這個法律上他覺得著作臨接權是最好的做法問題是連歐盟的法國他們在著作臨接權上都面臨平台很大的問題"},{"start":10572.159,"end":10596.841,"text":"所以還要他們的法國的公平教育委員會出來幫他們爭取在逼迫平台付費的這些情況所以在台灣根本我們的著作權並沒有鄰居權的精神所以在這種情況之下 訴法部一再的延旦我們台灣在這部法律的訂定"},{"start":10597.802,"end":10626.877,"text":"所以我自己的建議是我們是不是應該要先確立一個清楚而且願意負責的主管機關好那根據第二題就是強制溢價法他交付仲裁的必要性跟運作的模式因為現在我們最重要的問題是我們大家都有共識我們要支持新聞媒體我們希望媒體更好所以我們最主要的是要把這部法案送到立法院的交通委員會開始進行正式的"},{"start":10627.737,"end":10653.397,"text":"的法定程序這樣平臺才會重視這個議題他這確實已經拖太久了那我們能夠參考的其實是澳洲加拿大紐西蘭因為他們都已經訂定出來而且前兩個國家已經實施拿到錢第一個國家澳洲還面臨三年的換約那我們可以看到這裡面可以歸結到一些經驗第一個"},{"start":10654.522,"end":10675.441,"text":"在這些國家裡面META是完全不願意來付費所以我們可以明白它封鎖了加拿大的立場它在這次換約的時候它也表明它不願意再續約好 那在加拿大我們就發現其實META已經完全退出加拿大的市場"},{"start":10676.782,"end":10696.323,"text":"在紐西蘭這個部分我們就看到其實它已經不談Meta的問題了所以我們要了解我們今天台灣其實我們在這個時候才談立法我們應該清楚的知道我們其實面對的只有一個對象這個平台對象就叫做Google"},{"start":10696.903,"end":10715.34,"text":"所以Google他其實在澳洲他付的是一億澳幣就是四十億台幣那那個時候三年五年換月在現在他因為Meta的情形他覺得他付太多了所以他要降低到希望可以減少四成"},{"start":10716.221,"end":10733.678,"text":"那在加拿大呢 它其實是付了22億多的台幣一年我剛講的都是一年那這個情況 其實加拿大都已經拿到錢了而且Google也講他們會繼續付"},{"start":10735.699,"end":10762.47,"text":"紐西蘭的情形是他們訂定了法律但是Google告訴他我們不同意這樣做如果你堅持這樣做那我們現在在你們紐西蘭的所有的搜尋Google News Google Discovery我們全部退出這樣的恐嚇威脅其實在澳洲、加拿大全部出現過但最後Google這家公司還是願意坐下來談"},{"start":10763.63,"end":10783.155,"text":"所以我們了解Google跟新聞媒體它其實是一個關係最密切所以它不但是一個競爭的關係廣告競爭的關係它更是一個夥伴的關係所以請大家集中火力我們其實就是要跟Google非常有誠意的坐下來談"},{"start":10784.4,"end":10800.456,"text":"那在這個澳洲跟加拿大已經成功立法的過程中其實我們發現在加拿大的立法裡面甚至在澳洲的立法裡面其實都已經把媒體新聞記者的待遇"},{"start":10801.317,"end":10821.975,"text":"改善新聞環境放進去了所以我看到在澳洲的資料裡面澳洲的公共電視因此增加了60個工作機會我們也看到新聞記者的待遇有提升但是在澳洲的規範裡面其實他們跟Google在簽約的時候是說明這些合約內容是不能外寫的"},{"start":10822.595,"end":10850.697,"text":"所以他們其實沒有辦法讓我們知道更清楚的內容但是在加拿大他們對媒體有清楚的界定其實在這裡他們就是說明整個賠償補償的金額其實根據真正在做新聞工作所以廣告業務部門是不可能算進來而且這些內容必須符合公共利益所以它其實跟我們基金現在所憂慮的一些情形是非常接近的"},{"start":10851.497,"end":10867.778,"text":"同時他也提到什麼樣的媒體才是我們需要幫助的也就是真正在報導時事隨時關心這個社會上世界上發生的事情真正的傳統的新聞媒體的定義之下的才是我們的媒體"},{"start":10871.107,"end":10885.528,"text":"最後一個AI我想談的是其實我自己現在的領域已經完全轉到AI因為這不是我願意轉是這個整個世界科技的發展實在是太快速了在這個時候我看到其實"},{"start":10887.544,"end":10907.393,"text":"現在有加拿大的媒體美國的紐約時報等等媒體是對OpenAI跟Microsoft提出告訴並沒有接受和解提出告訴除了這些新聞媒體之外還包括其他的作者 音樂家 藝術家因為他們的文字 聲音 影像全部被AI"},{"start":10908.635,"end":10933.764,"text":"全部被AI公司拿去做生成那我們台灣媒體有兩種一種是作為大型媒體的模型生成這個我們的媒體還是鎖住的但是如果做即時新聞的生成我們的媒體是開放的因為這牽涉到他們的SEO還有很多的練習所以我最後10秒鐘我要說的是其實在國外"},{"start":10934.344,"end":10956.458,"text":"因為他牽涉到的這些關於OpenAI或者是其他的AI公司他的著作權影響的不只新聞媒體還包括藝術家、音樂家、作家所以媒體是不同而且這些平台的公司包括OpenAI、Microsoft跟我們剛才所談的Google並沒有完全"},{"start":10957.358,"end":10973.208,"text":"重疊所以我會建議我們在這個法案其實排除AI因為現在連西方澳洲加拿大都不把AI列入原來的法案即使他們在修法過程中好所以希望我們大家請大家就是建立最大的共識"},{"start":10973.948,"end":10991.767,"text":"媒體要團結 學者其實一直在背後支持你們但是我們也知道我們提了這個我們也要承擔這些平台可能退出台灣市場的這些風險希望大家一起努力我相信Google會給我們最合理的一個對待方式以上 謝謝"},{"start":10994.523,"end":11007.622,"text":"謝謝我們台灣大學新聞研究所的林肇真教授的精闢花言現在請政治大學王立達教授花言"},{"start":11017.597,"end":11030.818,"text":"在今天這個公聽會之前其實我看了一些相關的資料其實原本有點擔心就是說我覺得這個法案到目前"},{"start":11031.118,"end":11047.248,"text":"是正式進入立法的階段所以我們應該進入條文進入法律制度來談因為這個問題其實很困難其實就法律的角度來講它是一個非常特殊的規範所以有很多細節需要去推敲"},{"start":11049.59,"end":11071.653,"text":"不過今天真正到了這個公定會其實我非常高興首先聽到這個旗開委員告訴大家說其實有很多因為公定會的召開有很多很多新的這個推展那第二個確實在這個召委以及這個之前發言的這個級位委員確實有進入比如說王洪瑞委員確實進入草案的條文去提出了一些要調整的"},{"start":11072.293,"end":11089.947,"text":"目前的各個版本的草案確實有需要調整因為很多的基礎可能是在比較早的狀況而且原本提出的草案其實是一個對於細節的部分還沒有開放經過大家討論的部分所以有些部分其實它確實有在改進細緻化的空間或是隨著時間去調整的空間不過"},{"start":11094.73,"end":11118.425,"text":"就如果進入法律的這個制度裡面實際上有一個比較框架性的問題可能也需要我跟大家稍微做一些說明就是說就法律的角度來講溢價法實際上相對於舊的注入權法模式它是一個模式的轉變然後如果進入AI的話實際上又是另外一個模式它的模式是不一樣首先溢價部分實際上前面有些法律心境有講到說溢價實際上"},{"start":11120.106,"end":11129.782,"text":"它就是因為它不構成著作權法的侵害我們才需要議價法否則的話我們就走既有的著作權法去處理訴訟去處理就可以了"},{"start":11131.547,"end":11149.646,"text":"那所以呢那法律學者實際上常常會傾向於認為說那我們就用舊有的這個著作權法的角度去延伸也就是用歐盟的著作臨階權的制度去處理但是呢這個部分可能必須要比較熟悉北體議價法的議題才會對這個部分可能有一些"},{"start":11150.767,"end":11179.539,"text":"因為這個部分其實有一些外國的一些慘痛的經驗比如說在歐盟立法之前西班牙跟德國就已經有了這個著作臨接權的規定可是西班牙非常的慘烈因為剛剛這個趙正老師有講到說這個平台退出的經驗大部分的平台退出都是嚇阻性的各位請不要害怕這個平台的嚇阻一定會出現當這個法律的過程當中可是這個只是談判的一個策略而已真正退出的是西班牙"},{"start":11180.54,"end":11192.196,"text":"這個Google退出西班牙退出了七年半之久一直到了歐盟立法通過然後法國那邊這個內國法也實施之後他們才回去所以呢這個"},{"start":11193.496,"end":11221.502,"text":"你在法律上面雖然法律人都希望說在法律上面確立一個權力基礎但是你確立一個權力基礎有可能反而把這個事情給搞砸了這是這個規範非常特殊的部分那另外各位還有講到說這個法環不痛不癢另外一個例子在歐盟歐盟這個指令訂定之後那各國內國的立法也一定不一樣採取重罰模式的是捷克"},{"start":11222.874,"end":11241.081,"text":"捷克重罰下去之後呢這個法律還沒有生效呢這個Google也馬上宣布說要推出這樣各位不要認為說這個歐盟這個臨界權制度都運作的非常好實際上只有在比較大的國家像德國跟法國運作的蠻好的其他有些國家都有問題所以重罰模式實際上也不可行"},{"start":11241.857,"end":11262.387,"text":"那剛剛有先進還有提到說這個我順帶來談一下就是說這個轉載的定義要不要把Hyperlink連進去放進去那Hyperlink實際上就是我們在網際網路上面已經大家非常接受而且非常認為非常合理一個資訊交換的方式實際上不適合列進去而且這個部分在加拿大的部分是有列進去的"},{"start":11263.047,"end":11290.314,"text":"那各位如果直接去看Google抗議加拿大的這個那個時候是已經通過還沒生效的內容它實際上就是在針對你把Hyperlink這個東西列進去它抨擊你要把一個開放的網路變成一個封閉性的網路所以Hyperlink也不宜那轉載就是轉載其實在這個有些潮汗內容你們已經講得很清楚就是說你要或多或少要有重置一些原本這個媒體報導的部分"},{"start":11291.76,"end":11320.66,"text":"所以這個特徵實際上跟現在的生成式AI有蠻大的區別因為現在的生成式AI它產出的這個結果它實際上不會直接複製到你任何報導裡面的任何片段的語句所以這個部分如果要用溢價來處理的話你的計算的基礎溢價的基礎到底要是什麼它會出現一個非常大的問題它是一個全新的問題剛剛有先進講到說這個基本上現在技術是用RAG它基本上是搜尋新的"},{"start":11321.92,"end":11340.816,"text":"這個新聞然後再透過生成資料再產出那一個可能的基礎可能是看這個RAG是收了哪些新聞可是這邊會有一個困難點就是這個搜尋是純粹是內部性的它不像轉載有一個外部的這個你可以查得到的部分可以作為一個集合的基礎所以一個純粹內部的這個"},{"start":11343.344,"end":11358.2,"text":"這個搜尋的成果 搜尋了哪些的報導那你就算要查核的話 其實查核上面會相當的困難那我只是要說 那個其實是一個全新的問題這個在法律協會其實還有很多很多的討論比如說這個相關的程式 比如說在"},{"start":11359.768,"end":11386.579,"text":"它基本上會涉及到說我們要用鑄作權法來處理對於深層市以來到底要用鑄作權法延伸來處理還是要用溢價模式來處理用鑄作權法來處理實際上目前主要的國家出現明顯的分歧在歐盟跟日本已經直接列入Data Mining的這個合理使用裡面去認定它是合法的可是在美國這個今年2月最新出來的Weslow的這個Summary Judgment裡面是認為它不構成合理使用"},{"start":11387.762,"end":11400.58,"text":"所以著作權法本身也是分歧的然後議價本身也有我剛剛講到的這個問題所以比較謹慎的方式還是把它分開來處理我們這一次就處理用轉載方式的 簡短轉載方式的這個媒體議價這樣可能是比較合理的"},{"start":11405.836,"end":11430.163,"text":"那我們去採入一個我們現在還不知道要怎麼樣處理的這個深圳市AI的部分雖然它非常非常的有需要那接下來的話我可能快速的做一些這個版本的比較首先針對這個溢價仲裁這個模式的話實際上現在有一些因為現在草原版本就是部分規定的這個繁減的差距很大有些比較簡單的版本它實際上呢第一個它把調解跟仲裁並列在一起那實際上呢"},{"start":11431.954,"end":11454.67,"text":"這個模式的重點實際上它是透過逐步加壓的方式壓力是越來越大的方式所以階段的這個區分是非常的重要調解跟種檯並列實際上打破了這個模式重要的精髓然後進入強制種檯這個要件其實有的草案是非常不明確要不要雙方合議那如果不需要雙方合議有的定的這個門檻其實非常低非常低實際上它會變成你前面"},{"start":11455.891,"end":11472.471,"text":"資源協商這個階段等於不見了所以這個溢價仲裁模式會變成只有仲裁所以這個部分可能也是在立法過程當中要注意的所以比較溢價部分訂的比較詳細的基本上還是羅廷偉跟王宏輝委員的版本建議可能可以多參考一些部分這個部分"},{"start":11474.571,"end":11495.102,"text":"那在這次工經會之前新提出的一些這個建議的話這個新聞工作者的這個保障其實是我們一直其實都非常歡迎那只是說這個部分可能沒有辦法用非常高強度的方式去規範比如說定硬性的這個配額等等那而且可能也要注意到不要影響到這個溢價的部分"},{"start":11496.824,"end":11520.211,"text":"甚至是AI的部分其實剛剛說明過了我可能再花一分鐘的時間後面快速的去說說明那接下來部分的話是小型媒體的部分這個部分其實前面有先進提到說這個一千萬的這個年收入的這個門檻那這個部分確實可以考慮可以下降我覺得這個部分都沒有問題這個有優劣啦因為你降了之後實際上可以進去的這個媒體就變多那溢價會變得複雜"},{"start":11521.811,"end":11543.1,"text":"複雜的話它其實產出結果的可能性會降低所以它是一個trail off這個部分其實我個人是保持開放的那麼聯合議價機制其實在各個草案裡面都有像公民會申報取代聯合許可的這個部分可是各個版本定的法也很不一致有的版本只有提到說可以共同登記"},{"start":11544.686,"end":11560.937,"text":"那這個部分沒有豁免到重要的共同協商跟達成協議的部分所以有一些版本就涵蓋到後面的這個部分那尤其這個王俄委員的這個版本其實訂的蠻詳細的他並不是說直接把你豁免掉他其實有一些排除條款"},{"start":11561.317,"end":11577.167,"text":"那我們今天其實很高興知道說公民教育委員會願意接受這樣一個豁免的條款不再堅持要送公民會用聯合協會許可那實際上可以期待公民會更進一步的就這個部分到底有哪些硬性的條件要去做防弊"},{"start":11578.325,"end":11607.171,"text":"避免這個共同溢價延伸到其他不是在這個法律條文涵蓋的範圍裡面這個部分其實確實需要公民會投注他們專業的一些經驗那平台排序跟演算法這個部分總我稍微再補充一點點就是說演算法要不要公開其實是在AI制裡面一直被討論的議題可是它基本上有兩個重要的點要考慮第一個平台演算法是平台非常重要的營業秘密"},{"start":11608.451,"end":11629.39,"text":"平台這個到底做得好不好實際上就是看他演算法這個功效好不好可是媒體的演算法絕對不是一成不變的這個Google Search他其實講過非常多次他每年的這個演算法其實要經過很多次大的改變要讓他越來越準讓他預測力越來越強所以這個公開之後會不會對他的這個研發是有影響的"},{"start":11635.434,"end":11659.166,"text":"這個部分是必須要考慮而且公開之後這個演算法就可以被操弄操弄之後就變得不準了其實我們在AI法學上面討論其實都會討論到這些部分所以可能要謹慎一般目前肯定可以公開的是重要考量的參數甚至連參數的權重能不能夠公開這個可能也要斟酌"},{"start":11660.796,"end":11688.512,"text":"那其他的像這個流量貢獻度這個基礎溢價的這個資訊要揭露這個當然是非常重要也都很支持然後這個演算法變動的時候要預告我覺得這個部分其實應該都做得到那至於基金的部分我覺得這個要看立法的這個狀況如果他在立法上面確實會額外滋生一些疑慮的話可能就可以暫緩到第二個階段我們先把這個溢價總裁制度立法成功可能比較重要好那以上是一些"},{"start":11689.745,"end":11715.422,"text":"簡單的一些這個分享給各位希望對這個整個立法進程的有一些幫助謝謝好謝謝我們王立達教授的精闢跟有些作法提供給我們做參考謝謝接下來我們請也是台灣大學新聞研究所林立雲教授發言現在請林教授"},{"start":11724.503,"end":11724.524,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11726.376,"end":11754.067,"text":"謝謝 那非常感謝那謝謝我們委員然後媒體朋友還有我們特別是我們的學者專家我今天真的學習很多本來只是在看文件看法律的資料或者是議案的資料但是聽到第一線的新聞工作者還有經營者然後我們學者然後的一些發言那個危機感更深刻深刻到我直接從結論開始講"},{"start":11756.067,"end":11766.492,"text":"然後也是借用剛剛王立達老師的結論就是我剛剛集中力量能夠快速通過這樣我也是覺得這樣就是說我們現在最重要的"},{"start":11768.154,"end":11790.666,"text":"現在最重要的剛剛大家已經講得都非常清楚其實新聞業的問題不只是新聞業而已是整個台灣民主政治的發展這是攸關台灣民主政治發展的問題而且那個危機不是只是現在其實已經很久而且很深"},{"start":11792.093,"end":11817.711,"text":"那所以其實現在在立法已經太慢了但是總比沒有好所以最重要最重要的就是快速通過快速立法 儘速立法要排除一些的爭議然後我們希望能夠有就共識的部分先求立法確認新聞有價不只是價值不只是價格更重要的是跟民主政治的價值"},{"start":11819.585,"end":11836.955,"text":"要確認這樣的原則那麼之後我們在整體在長期的在好好的研習相關的做法那再來我要最重要要講的是說就是說今天新聞業發生這麼重要的危機其實最重要的是政府必須要有"},{"start":11838.382,"end":11853.702,"text":"新聞經濟2.0的思維也就是傳統的廣告模式已經出現危機那整個真的是就是傳統媒體的廣告那個思維已經是崩解式的那所以在這樣的時刻裡面我們應該要有新聞經濟2.0的思維"},{"start":11855.845,"end":11881.605,"text":"但是剛剛趙真老師講 問了很多的部會 很多的部會都不是我的事那怎麼辦 到底是誰的事 這個國家沒人管嗎其實應該是行政院的事行政院應該有一個整體 我們國家在這樣的時刻裡面那新聞2.0 他的做法應該怎麼樣那其實其他的國家都有很多的做法 其他的國家的做法是多軌多軌 很多的做法 多管齊下"},{"start":11882.884,"end":11902.137,"text":"但是多管齊家那放在我們今天對平台的分論的問題上那很多的國家採取的是議價它是一個第一軌第一軌的做法那所以我們要先把那個軌道建立起來用第一軌的做法那同時有基金那再不斷的去思考那如果中間有基金那怎麼做"},{"start":11903.294,"end":11919.61,"text":"那所以有基金的這個第二軌但是第一軌要先鋪起來那第一軌最重要的精神是在於說新聞有價然後要保障記者的勞動權以及確認新聞專業這個是我主要的發言重點那我們就從第一章開始看很簡單的來看過"},{"start":11927.045,"end":11941.011,"text":"那這個前面的先進都講過所以我就很簡單的帶過去就是整體來講最重要的問題我們今天在這裡討論的不只是壟斷的問題最重要的是它長期免費的使用新聞內容的問題"},{"start":11943.308,"end":11970.447,"text":"那這個出現不公平出現造成我們新聞界造成的危機那再來就是我們的收入整個下滑收入整個有多嚴重呢你可以看到我們藍色的部分原來是傳統媒體有這麼多但是整個下滑到現在只剩下兩百多億但是相對來講它則是那個紅線的部分是數位廣告則是整個往上那到了六百多億但整個差多少 差三倍"},{"start":11971.536,"end":11982.185,"text":"差三倍之多那會造成我們剛才很多先進講到的問題這真的都是真實發生中欸就是說包括說業配 自主性行銷"},{"start":11983.735,"end":12006.392,"text":"那這是真實的問題 那影響到新聞專業 影響到勞動權剛剛我們那個記者朋友都講得非常的清楚 那有非常的嚴重啦那再來就是損及我們的民主政治 就整個社會是錯位的很重要的第四權 卻變成政商掛鉤或者是尋租媒體就整個社會是沒有辦法function 沒有辦法那個監督的功能沒有辦法做好"},{"start":12007.213,"end":12024.552,"text":"那所以其他的國家怎麼做 其他的國家早就想這件事了那所以有的學者甚至用什麼呢這個時代是要新政New Deal就是羅斯福總統那個年代就是需要新政是需要一個全新的政策的思維那很多的國家有提出來"},{"start":12025.433,"end":12047.345,"text":"那像澳洲就2019年的時候就已經提出這樣子有這些政策的破壞但是台灣就是都沒有那所以應該從國家的角度政策性的思維整體來講說在廣告從20世紀19世紀以來那個廣告的模式沒有辦法完全sustain新聞業那在這個時代應該怎麼辦應該用什麼樣多軌的政策來讓我們的新聞業能夠永續發展"},{"start":12053.929,"end":12080.605,"text":"那所以應該要多管齊下其實整體應該從這裡來思考那澳洲的模式有它的優點其實最重要的優點為什麼大家都在講澳洲最重要最重要的精神是它確認新聞有價新聞有價值不是免費的新聞有價值那的確也讓很多的媒體有比較多的談判的機會然後也有訴諸商業機制也比較彈性但是它有它的限制"},{"start":12081.685,"end":12107.24,"text":"但是現在再說澳洲整個市場它是高度集中的集中在四個大的集團特別是梅鐸集團那在這次分潤中他拿到了錢但是整個分配梅鐸拿多少呢拿三分之一就是兩億的澳幣梅鐸的集團拿三分之一那其他的媒體就很少那到了他們最重要的一個多元文化的媒體SBS沒有拿到"},{"start":12108.26,"end":12123.861,"text":"沒有拿到錢所以這個造成中小媒體的確是分配有問題了那再來就是沒有透明整個協商沒有透明整個那個deal沒有出來這樣所以這個也是大家猜的啦就是很多的外媒這樣猜大概是多少錢"},{"start":12125.461,"end":12141.707,"text":"那所以在這個情況底下他們澳洲其實都有做一些檢議政策檢議包括他們的整個那個公平交易會或者是國會都有建議說必須要設一些基金來補救那也有做一些也有設立另外設立基金補救"},{"start":12142.728,"end":12169.117,"text":"那加拿大的經驗 加拿大則是在澳洲之後那所以他們其實是有互相學習那他的做法則是一樣都是有這個仲裁制度那之外有成立基金那這個是政府跟澳洲跟那個Google有做一些協商有做一些協商說當他捐出一定的一定的費用 一定的錢啊就是補償一億的加幣之後他可以免除"},{"start":12169.597,"end":12192.384,"text":"那在這個基礎上他們成立的一個基金就是CJC那一個基金然後一個基金的委員會那多元媒體代表那確認他是公平的那最重要的精神最重要的精神是要保障創新然後公平公平讓各個媒體各個類型的媒體都能夠得到分潤他的精神在這裡那所以"},{"start":12193.314,"end":12214.585,"text":"所以在這裡我們建議說第一軌要先建立就是確認第一軌第一軌就是議價那議價必須要有這些精神必須要有那個要強制議價然後仲裁那再來最重要的是要監督政府要監督那最重要的是要分配給一定的比例的金額要分配給新聞工作者以上 謝謝"},{"start":12217.54,"end":12237.753,"text":"好謝謝我們林立雲教授謝謝跟各位報告我們所有敦請到的所有寫者專家第一輪已花園完畢那現在請教各位寫者專家是否"},{"start":12238.573,"end":12261.546,"text":"要第二輪的花園第二輪的花園是三分鐘那如果願意花園的可以到前面來登記那如果沒有的話我們接下來就要請主管機關來做問題的回應那請問各位寫者專家要不要有第二輪的補充有沒有"},{"start":12264.295,"end":12287.632,"text":"沒有了好那我們現在就請現在就請機關代表來發言也做回應以及意見的表達首先我們總共請五個單位那其他的單位就再來有補充的話再來說明我們數位部"},{"start":12288.413,"end":12310.132,"text":"通信委員會文化部公平教育委員會以及國家科學技術委員會以上這五個有關的單位來做說明來做說明跟回應現在首先我們請數位發展部我們胡主任秘書來回應"},{"start":12318.52,"end":12330.049,"text":"主席還有各位委員 各位與會先進 大家好今天非常榮幸可以來熱地熱席這樣子的一個公聽會聆聽各位委員還有立法委員們的對於這個議題的相關意見"},{"start":12332.748,"end":12359.314,"text":"那事實上從行政院交付這個速發部針對有關媒體溢價的一些任務以來事實上我們也一直在了解國際的趨勢或者是各方立法的一些成效或者他們的進度等等那我們部裡面也是堅定支持這個新聞有價這樣的概念那剛才從各位學者專家的發言裡面也知道說這個速度臨階權也好或者強制溢價也好"},{"start":12361.534,"end":12380.304,"text":"其實它都有面臨不同的機會、風險跟挑戰所以我們在考量情勢的變動或者是AI新興科技的應用的發展等等所以為了讓這個整個未來的進度可以更完善所以部長也有在之前的公聽會裡面有提到"},{"start":12381.284,"end":12406.558,"text":"我們希望在年底之前可以有一些對岸提出來所以今天各位委員的發言非常的重要包括新聞的定義媒體的定義或者是基金強制溢價或者是做連接權這邊所衍生的一些課題或者是應該留意的事項甚至是這個主管機關應該是書發部也好或者公平會也好文化部等等"},{"start":12407.598,"end":12432.781,"text":"再加上有一些委員也提到這個學者專家也提到這個到底是國內法國際法他會不會有一些公法上面的課題等等我相信這個都是我們最近在跟大家溝通的一個重點所以我們也希望持續收集各方利害關係人的意見然後真的在年底之前可以把部裡面的對案提出來那以上是簡單的回應 謝謝"},{"start":12436.116,"end":12442.563,"text":"好 現在請NCC陳代主委來做說明跟回應"},{"start":12451.348,"end":12475.395,"text":"主席 在場的張委員還有學者專家 先進的大家午安那這邊我大概幾點簡單的補充回應那第一個就是因為這個是行政院跨部會小組的一個協力工作NCC一定會持續在我們所授予的這個工作範圍內來持續協力"},{"start":12477.316,"end":12502.972,"text":"那以上三點以下三點大概簡單回應剛剛公聽會先進所提到的意見第一個關於這個新聞的登記的一些要的事格認定的部分那這個在去年行政院的會議裡頭已經有界定是由文化部跟NCC來負責就屆時這個法有後續推進的我們一定會繼續來配合辦理這是第一點"},{"start":12505.27,"end":12523.631,"text":"第二點是關於剛剛有先進提到說本國的媒體的規模跟一些大陸型國家可能會有一些差異落差在談判上的一些對等上需要一些"},{"start":12524.832,"end":12539.76,"text":"團結就是力量那這一塊其實我們也遵循這個原則所以在過去這個三輪八場的對話裡頭我們都請包括今天陳理事長在內的衛星工會跟這個電視協會的代表來參與這個未來我們也會持續來依這方式來持續來推進"},{"start":12548.704,"end":12575.14,"text":"第三個是今天公聽會提到很多議題包括雖然是以性溢價為主那有些是比較周邊的議題部分有涉及到NCC的部分那這邊也跟公眾各位來報告我們都是依法行政在相關的我們的作用法無廣法未廣法還有相關其他的政府採購法跟預算法我們都會依法來行政"},{"start":12576.682,"end":12601.124,"text":"還務使我們這個保障我們新聞媒體的一些公正客觀也希望我們新聞媒體能夠在今天法案或在推進上持續能夠獲得這個Win-Win的一些局面以上好 謝謝我們那個陳代主委現在請文化部李政事來做說明跟回應"},{"start":12609.165,"end":12626.937,"text":"主席還有張委員還有我們今天出席的各個專家學者代表還有我們其他各個部會代表當然首先非常感謝張委今天召開了這樣的一個會議過去三年來文化部一直跟著抒發部還有NCC我們其實跟尤其今天在場的幾個"},{"start":12628.037,"end":12651.776,"text":"媒體的代表四大媒體公會的代表我們持續的開了很多的會那也跟這過程裡面也跟學者專家請教了很多所以今天讓我們聽到的媒體的困境或者是在用議價或是基金或是助言人這個其實我們過去有很多的討論那今天比較個人覺得學習很多的是三位法律部分的"},{"start":12653.377,"end":12680.619,"text":"律師或所長或是教授們提醒提醒我們我們在從媒體環境的改善或者是存活下去的這個觀點上我們提出了很多的一些想法可是想法我們真的希望立法下來的事情要確實有效所以進度如何掌控然後今天幾位從法律背景來提醒我們這個法律如果實施了以後很可能"},{"start":12681.909,"end":12703.545,"text":"遇到的障礙是在哪裡那這件事情我們如何去克服我就覺得這個部分文化部也會持續的在跟我們其他行政院的幾個部會以後怎麼樣來盡快加速能夠制定好一個當然也剛剛講事情不能等到全部的都想清楚都做好了再來總是第一軌第一步要先踏出去那這一個部分"},{"start":12704.557,"end":12726.708,"text":"文化部會持續的跟行政院我們這個整個數位平台共融協調小組來持續依照我們的分工然後去建立希望能夠盡快把這個法例能夠建立起來那在整個立法的模式上來講其實今天大家也討論了很多他真的有很多各種層面不同的一個想法那台灣的媒體環境也跟以往的不同"},{"start":12727.168,"end":12748.784,"text":"其實我也一直講新聞有價我們絕對支持這樣只是這個有價到底要由誰來付費那過去台灣的民眾長期以來我們都習慣自己覺得自己用無價甚至是非常低廉的方式以前買一份報紙十塊錢就好啦十五塊錢就好啦一份報紙十塊錢怎麼可能能夠"},{"start":12749.645,"end":12777.804,"text":"真正支印這整個報紙產出印刷更不可能可是我們卻長期習慣就覺得我只要付十塊錢甚至以前無線台的時候我打開電視三節新聞三台三節新聞都會告訴我那些都我不用再另外付費可是今天我們談新聞有價這件事情它必須要從頭到尾去挑戰民眾對於新聞有價對新聞的尊重對新聞的付價只是這個付費要透過一個什麼樣的機制能夠讓它產生"},{"start":12780.366,"end":12809.305,"text":"如果今天以前是直接報紙的廣告現在看到數位的廣告那如果再有轉換呢那我沒有該去追著誰追要這個有價這件事情那我是覺得這整體的議題都值得我們一步一步的往下探討那今天文化部在這邊也是表達很謝謝有這樣子的一個公聽會讓我們聽到更深入的一個探討那我們在立法上如果有任何還有缺失的地方我們也會再來要求精進然後也尊重我們立法"},{"start":12809.705,"end":12822.03,"text":"願對於最後的一個立法版本的一個權責 以上好 謝謝我們文化部的李政事現在請公平教育委員會的胡處長來說明跟回應"},{"start":12832.438,"end":12840.008,"text":"主席以及各位詹委員還有學者專家各位與會的機關代表這邊公民會在這邊簡單做一下回應"},{"start":12846.793,"end":12870.945,"text":"那這個新聞媒體這個議價這個問題涉及很多很多的政策面不管是智慧財產還有整個新聞產業所以說公平會的立場是非常的清楚我們會尊重整個主管相關主管機關的一個職權還有社會的共識我們也會跟相關的主管機關共同努力努力的促成這個法律的早日的一個立法這是第一點的說明第二點"},{"start":12871.905,"end":12887.597,"text":"剛剛很多學者專家也提到有關公民會的事情那我們剛剛也談到我們會尊重整個各部會相關主管機關的一個職權那當然公民會到底今天是不是要立法裡面是要豁免公民會聯合行為一個"},{"start":12888.717,"end":12903.669,"text":"這個整個豁免或者是向公民會做一個聯合行為的申請我們完全尊重最後的一個立法院的一個最後的一個一個最後的一個立法的結果公民會完全會配合公民會做簡單一個回應謝謝好謝謝我們胡處長現在請國家科學及技術委員會我們資通組郭主任來說明"},{"start":12923.656,"end":12947.091,"text":"各位委員各位專家學者大家好感謝各位委員跟專家學者今天的寶貴意見國科會將吸回作為相關政策研擬上的重要依據以上簡單回應自110年以來國科會積極配合行政院的國內產業與數位平台共同發展協調小組透過了跨部會的協調機制做了一些相關的政策研擬那以下簡單說明"},{"start":12948.152,"end":12972.43,"text":"有鉴于新闻媒体除虚面对数位平台的连结与内容引用问题亦因生成式AI迅速发展面临更严重更复杂的内容授权及应用挑战对于未来涉及AI资料数位经济等相关政策与法治的推动国科会将配合行政院跟主管机关共同促进我国数位社会健全发展"},{"start":12973.351,"end":12994.907,"text":"有關於國康會議的相關措施包含國康會將會支持與鼓勵新聞業者主動參與AI模型開發與資料授權機制例如建立開放資料的授權模式推動媒體業者與學員機構共同建構語料庫資源等以平衡AI創新及著作保護權之需求以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":12997.058,"end":13005.162,"text":"好謝謝我們帶郭主任那現在還有請問勞動部有沒有表示意見勞動部沒有有沒有經濟部財政部沒有內政部內政部華務部"},{"start":13022.453,"end":13031.96,"text":"黃埠沒有 施法院施法院有沒有好那現在我們大概好好那個我們張祺凱委員來來來表達"},{"start":13044.81,"end":13070.092,"text":"很謝謝我們今天這麼多專家學者還有媒體界的好朋友今天表達非常珍貴而且更重要的我聽到很多是行動跟解決的方案所以非常的寶貴非常寶貴我剛剛跟國城也進一步來討論今天是行動的一大步我們在這個會期之前我們就要開始想辦法完成三度"},{"start":13071.499,"end":13093.879,"text":"要完成三讀一個是因為該走的程序都走了第二個今天我們傾聽了各界產官學的這個意見這事情又這麼重要我們的新聞產業新聞界真的面臨到非常大的一個危機那全世界比較先進國家新聞有價"},{"start":13096.69,"end":13117.991,"text":"普世的一個價值啊而且那麼多國家都已經做了我覺得我沒有理由在這邊延宕一直在在這邊轉圈圈所以今天是行動的一大步我們會盡快在這個會期推動完成三度那當然今天稍微有點遺憾的是今天的行政部門看起來有點原地踏步啦"},{"start":13118.972,"end":13131.091,"text":"有點嚴厲踏步 比我們上次委員會審的時候沒有往前走你看我們之前已經辦公聽會了 上次連審查會都已經有的所以我明確的要求明確的要求"},{"start":13134.791,"end":13156.296,"text":"現在數位發展部你們本來的承諾是說要等到年底提行政院版嘛對不對回去趕快再加快速度因為朝委很快就要要排了整個新聞界跟台灣的新聞產業然後講也沒媽等大家有看到今天有非常多的專家學者今天提的那個連署嘛厚厚一疊你看那個多少多少那個名單"},{"start":13160.939,"end":13177.479,"text":"台灣一些有志之士現在都站出來了他們提的也是一個非常明確的解決方案就跟今天的專家寫者提的是一樣的那我也特別強調過了第一個民眾黨有版本國民黨有版本民進黨也有版本"},{"start":13178.14,"end":13204.445,"text":"那之前唯一有碰到問題的是因為民進黨有提出來說要成立一個基金那數位發展部的部長黃部長上次來報告的時候他特別有提他說這個剛好已經撞到那個川普的高關稅那麼當場也做了一個解決方案了包括趙珍寧寫的文章很多專家寫者馬上就提出一個解決方案他說本來我們本來這個法案裡面提的一個是設立基金一個就是強制溢價那台灣民眾黨是雙軌並行嘛"},{"start":13206.803,"end":13233.975,"text":"那我們為了要跟時間賽跑啊又既然又有高關稅這個衝突那就先不要成立這個基金嘛我們今天的重點就是我們去去發現問題的時候我們解決問題我們一起往前走所以我們先不碰基金這一塊或許以基金可以變成是第二步以後以後再再來修可是現在急著要馬上通過的是用強制溢價所以我們在這個法令裡面給強制溢價給它法令的這個依據特別是政府要怎麼去幫忙政府要有角色"},{"start":13235.031,"end":13253.883,"text":"那可是授權是大的喔強制議價裡面是很開放的是剛剛在提的它是很大的你個別你也可以去談公會跟團體你可以出面去談你說衛星公會也可以出面去談啊這個記者公會也可以去談啊它是雙軌的它那個授權有強制性可是基本上你都是可以去談的"},{"start":13255.149,"end":13279.966,"text":"我拜託一下 我們今天 然後講時間我們不能再拖了所以今天我明確的要求 社會發展部不要等到年底了回去盡快 不要到時候我們那個已經開始排審的時候各黨都已經有版本了 寫著專家已經提出了解決方案了社會發展部好像像陀螺還在那邊轉不行 一定又挨罵好不好 那個NCC的主委 你上次答應我的那個演算的那個事情 你要進一步趕快跟那個郭柏跟那個"},{"start":13281.267,"end":13298.2,"text":"那個臉書那邊要再跟他們談一下因為事實上我們現在的媒體衣架老將也是現在進行式啦我們有些重要媒體都已經跟他們都有些聯絡那個YouTube上面什麼噴震什麼那些都已經在做了啦只是他們常常那個演算法在那邊變來變去那這個就是NCC的責任嘛 哲瑋你也言諾嘛"},{"start":13299.201,"end":13313.845,"text":"你公開運動 那你就要趕快去把這個事情弄好不要一下子 這個月是一千萬明天變五百萬或變一百沒有這樣的道理就讓他比較公開透明 而且要合理好不好那公平會剛剛有特別提啦公平會是到目前我認為是最積極的"},{"start":13315.606,"end":13335.244,"text":"不只不要變成是一個壟斷新聞 你要怎麼去幫忙這個在條文裡面都已經有解決方案了非常謝謝大家期待我們是行動的開始也非常謝謝這個謝謝這個國懲那我們很快很快我們非常非常的期待在這個會期之前7月底之前可以完成媒體一家法三讀感謝 謝謝"},{"start":13338.026,"end":13353.36,"text":"好今天特別謝謝各位媒體專家還有我們主管機關在這裡我要特別提醒數位部我們不會退讓不會等到你們年底"},{"start":13354.653,"end":13376.815,"text":"我會很迅速的去排但是我也要呼籲所有針對媒體溢價法的等等各提案委員針對議題這裡面重點就是主管機關分立的問題到底主管機關另外溢價的方法"},{"start":13377.81,"end":13407.07,"text":"第二個基金設不設的問題仲裁的制度分論的問題各提案委員有必要修改的儘快修改取得一個多數提案人的共識這樣的話在審查法案的時候會較為明確所以我要特別提醒數位部"},{"start":13408.13,"end":13432.568,"text":"我不會退讓 我不會等你們到年底再去提版本你們要提 儘快提不提 我相信跟提案人取得共識以後還是會強行審查 送大會通過不要弄到最後 口頭要記支持這個議價法"},{"start":13434.309,"end":13458.583,"text":"事實上都言封不動至於法令地位的問題應該還有寫者專家法律比較見解的看法我們會再再度去請教不要推到法律地位國際或國內的問題這叫做推卸責任"},{"start":13459.577,"end":13484.957,"text":"所以我不希望主管機關都沒有一點積極之態度今天黃國昌召委已經講得很清楚不要再怠慢因為這個法是需要的今天所有寫者專家也認為有必要那既然有必要政府在那邊唱反調幹什麼所以這個我要呼籲主管機關盡快"},{"start":13488.396,"end":13501.176,"text":"要把版本提出來你們的版本有理由我們就尊重沒有的話我們還是會印取得所有提案委員的版本我們取得最大的公約數我們還是會審"},{"start":13504.32,"end":13526.489,"text":"最後我還要再次謝謝今天所有的寫者專家還有我們今天出席的立委當然我很感動台灣民眾黨跟國民黨都有派代表來表示支持的態度我也希望民進黨為了議價法不要去黨"},{"start":13527.549,"end":13544.615,"text":"我認為這是一個公共議題對國家任何的事情沒有什麼損害沒有什麼影響所以我要呼籲三黨都重視媒體溢價華這個話那我再度在提醒我不會等你們"},{"start":13545.675,"end":13570.171,"text":"年底再提出來回去跟黃部長講一下好那再次謝謝我們寫者專家也謝謝我們例行的主管機關謝謝我們宴會的委員也特別來聲援那針對本日公聽會做以下的結論再次感謝各位寫者專家提供精闢的見解"},{"start":13571.931,"end":13592.397,"text":"將作為日後審查本項目法案來參考重要資料今天所有出席人員機關代表的花言以及所有提供的書面資料除了列入記錄刊登立法院公報之外也會另外製成"},{"start":13593.337,"end":13610.134,"text":"公聽會的報告送交本宴前提委員及今天所有出席的貴賓來參來參閱本日會議本日的公聽會我們現在就結事謝謝大家感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":13620.339,"end":13624.824,"text":"不要太冷了"},{"start":13637.978,"end":13639.399,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":13652.865,"end":13652.885,"text":"謝謝觀看"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}