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抱歉抱歉請問一下各位2億跟32億差很多華晶是5億華晶是10.7億中華電信是1200億幫我核實一下我的數字是否正確因為我是查過的然後剛剛你說32億也不對確實是我說的2億"},{"start":127.012,"end":148.093,"text":"那我很想请问一下就是说这家中光电那我们先我们先看资本额等一下我会跟你讨论核心技术等等一个一个讨论下去那中华电信华晶资讯这跟中光电这三家那他们来针对资安设备的部分来进行投标中光电它能够胜出的理由在哪里"},{"start":150.973,"end":172.049,"text":"報委員我簡單報告一下這個評選委員最主要是有九員那軍方的內部是兩員通常到學者專家學者專家然後我再問嘛就是那你總要知道說這個最後得標了中光電他得標這個是我們陸軍機敏的這個專案那他的優勢優於華晶資訊跟中華電信優在哪嗎他有什麼特色嗎"},{"start":179.296,"end":205.79,"text":"向委員報告因為手上的資訊沒有但是我們剛剛這個委員啊所有的委員都是經過這個我不管你委員我問你的問題你回答我就好因為你今天三家來標然後呢你也標給了這個中光電了然後呢我問你說那中光電它提供出來的內容有什麼是能夠優於其他兩間所以它被選擇無論是軍方的參與或是專家學者的參與它勝出的原因在哪裡"},{"start":207.05,"end":226.16,"text":"這個部分的資料我們可以私下跟委員報告為什麼要私下報告呢公開不能講嗎因為這個評選的資料有些是不宜對外公開的好那我告訴你公開的部分是什麼好不好也就是其他廠商的核心設備他們拿出的中華電信跟華晶資訊他們都有CP Cisco Geometer"},{"start":226.84,"end":246.225,"text":"但是呢 中光電跟別人不一樣中光電他選擇的是這一家這個叫做Fortinet的這個防火牆所以最後我們選擇了它我想要請問一下你們軍方有沒有了解中光電所提供的這一套Fortinet它這一套資訊系統好還是不好有沒有在國際上受到什麼樣的批評"},{"start":254.107,"end":279.686,"text":"報告委員我就兩點向您做回覆第一個有關於這個媒播報導的這一家媒體報導的事情它事實上並不周全而且有沒有你回答我的問題就好了嘛周不周全那是我今天我當然今天有一家媒體它做了很多的系列的報導那我也只會拿我認為裡面有道理的部分來詢問你那不是說我今天把所有的新聞然後全部列出來我詢問的剛剛很清楚了"},{"start":282.068,"end":305.893,"text":"就是說這套ForeignNet是中光電提供的資訊系統對吧是有錯嗎有錯嗎沒有嘛那我問你這套系統你認為它優不優秀有沒有其他的漏洞可言我就兩點向委員報告第一個它所提供的必須要符合國防部它所這個所規範的營區網路的這個建置的期待你沒有回答我的問題我問的是這套系統第二點有關於這個您剛才講到這個這個ForeignNet這個對"},{"start":312.314,"end":335.579,"text":"網路漏洞我們目前沒有收到國防部以上的這個那你們沒有從那我請問一下荷蘭軍事情報局安全局那他們有沒有在2024年曾經發布一個報告提到這套系統它有被中國中國大陸這邊然後呢有駭客的漏洞"},{"start":336.052,"end":343.261,"text":"他們曾經駭入過荷蘭的國防部在內有兩萬台的相關設備你們知道這件事嗎我們一切會依照國安局所通報的機制來做審問那你國安局的機制歸國安局的機制我現在問你是一個事實的部分就是說你們有沒有去掌握到這一套系統"},{"start":355.475,"end":364.163,"text":"在荷蘭他當初被使用的時候他們的國防部有提供一個報告說明了就他們實際上在運作的時候有兩萬台被中共去入侵到他們的系統裡面包委員現在這個案子還在廠商提交服務計畫書的階段如果今天報導"},{"start":376.175,"end":393.872,"text":"或是委員的指導認為這個有疑慮事實上我們會再請教國防部跟國安局一定建制和所驗收的系統一定要是符合國安局的機制所以這個部分不是只是國安局它有它的機制但國安局它也不是神啊它也有可能有漏掉的時候啊"},{"start":394.993,"end":401.057,"text":"所以這本來就是雙方大家要有一個互動嘛那我剛剛提出的就是說荷蘭軍事情報局裡面就出過一份報告裡面寫什麼呢他們的防火牆被中共的駭客攻破以後他還會植入木馬這個木馬呢他即便軍方重新開機這是報告裡面的內容我都看過報告了那你進行任體升級之後他這個後門還是會在"},{"start":419.028,"end":422.171,"text":"所以變成是說這套系統它從荷蘭這是荷蘭方講的他們的實務經驗就是它有一個後門會被植入木馬植入木馬之後就算你去做更新這個木馬還在所以就變成是說你以為你買了一套資安的設備但其實你讓中共有了一個後門的機會有一個植入木馬的機會"},{"start":440.785,"end":459.866,"text":"那請問一下如果是這樣子的話專家跟委員跟你們在這個標案的過程當中都沒有把這些事情考慮進來的情況下那裡面是有中共同路人還怎樣啊包委員我再次強調我們不會堅持要用這樣子的系統如果有這樣的疑慮在服務計畫書裡面廠商要有完整的說明而且要經過"},{"start":461.187,"end":488.837,"text":"國安局和我們的聯誼所那你們在當初這個開標的時候有沒有就是你們在討論這個標案的時候有沒有把這些事情就是一起討論在裡面嗎還是你們什麼時候才知道說荷蘭人家是荷蘭人家是有做這個報告然後有提到說有漏洞的問題啊你們什麼時候知道這件事情的不可能是我現在跟你講你才知道吧我沒有參與標案所以這個要在10號了解之後向您報告那你們需要花多少時間了解"},{"start":491.936,"end":492.917,"text":"因為這是滿嚴重的一個問題啊"},{"start":497.694,"end":519.687,"text":"我們在本週最為了解到我告訴你我不是要挑你們麻煩因為這是蠻嚴重的問題我重複一遍因為其實中華電信跟華晶資訊那都是對於資安他們有尤其我說中華電信好了我不要講其他的中華電信跟我們之間這個政府部門之間本來就有很多資安上面的服務跟協助那人家其實是相當專業的資安的這個防護系統結果呢選了這個中光電原因剛剛也聽不出來"},{"start":525.29,"end":540.369,"text":"那選了中光電那它其實它的產業主要是在服務這個像比如無人機啊或是這種無人狗啊等等的它也不是以一個資安見長的一個公司然後呢再加上它所提供的它目前所要提供的這樣的一個系統"},{"start":541.51,"end":559.825,"text":"在荷蘭就曾經已經被他們揭露過說會被中共植入木馬所以它是一個有資安程序的資安疑慮的問題那我想要請教一下那如果說對方要提供的是這樣子的一個系統那我們後續你一個禮拜之後你發現說真的有所疑慮的話那國防部這裡要怎麼處理"},{"start":561.803,"end":587.841,"text":"我再次跟您報告上述的參加上述的三家的這個競標公司都是符合相關的規定資格的那第二個我剛剛也說了符合資格是不是設備要通過國安規定的認證然後呢那請問一下這個認證的部分中華電信跟華晶資訊我知道都是在得標之前就已經送給國防部請問中光電是什麼時候送進來的相關認證這個報導上面所說的與事實不符"},{"start":591.203,"end":594.286,"text":"那是什麼時候 我要問是什麼時候我剛沒有說是幾月份 請你聽清楚我的問題我問的是說呢 這個中華電信跟華晶就我確實知道是說它是 因為本來就應該在你要這個送進來的時候就要有審核嘛"},{"start":609.46,"end":614.785,"text":"所以我問的是說那好那你這樣講這三家中華電信華晶資訊中光電他們分別針對國安認證的部分是在什麼時候把相關的設備交由國防部去提供相關的這個認證說明的"},{"start":627.096,"end":633.119,"text":"你三家都提供時間點就好了呀我是給你一個澄清的機會嘛我這要比較完整跟委員報告第一個這個依照BNS的採購清單裡面就是國防部核可我們雖然是陸軍建制但是我們要能夠跟國防部的整個相容性和安全性做借接那"},{"start":644.443,"end":666.156,"text":"在這個招標的這個商情裡面我們發現有部分的清單他可能面臨到消失性的商源還有並不是優歸所以我們請得標廠商提供相關的優歸的記錄並不是如報導所說在招標評選會上面他沒有拿到國安的資安認證那請問其他兩家都是一開始就OK了嘛對不對"},{"start":666.676,"end":672.179,"text":"您 對不起 抱歉 我沒聽就是你剛剛講的是說因為你認為說這其中一家廠商或者是因為你沒有講是哪一家廠商你就說有廠商然後呢他可能在這個過程當中你認為有一些需要補件是嗎需要補件所以你後來請他補件 對吧"},{"start":682.924,"end":697.361,"text":"就請他提供這些在B2S清單裡面可能面臨消失性傷源的我們請他提出優歸的其他的系統讓我們做審認那其他兩家不用的原因是因為他沒得標嗎"},{"start":698.682,"end":712.751,"text":"那他有 他當初在這個投標的時候有提供相關的內容嗎因為如果人家有那他沒有的話然後結果他卻被選出來那不是一件很奇怪的事嗎是 他這些提供的都有在BS清單裡面但是因為我們去審認"},{"start":714.332,"end":728.858,"text":"面臨到這些系統裡面我們要選擇更優歸和有一些可能面臨消費性傷害源的我們就把它摒除掉好那我以上做一個結論因為也沒有時間了就是說呢你們在這麼重要的資安設備而且金額高達六億多"},{"start":730.359,"end":738.548,"text":"然後呢我們我不知道為什麼學者專家或你說的裡面也有國防部的人沒有選擇這種聲譽很好然後呢也長時間在經營那這個資安系統的包含中華電信等等的那要選擇一個資本額比較低的中光電他也主要不是做這個的"},{"start":748.539,"end":753.781,"text":"那這我也都不跟你提了但他最後他選擇的這樣子的一個系統如果他曾經在荷蘭所發布的報告裡面有提到他有被兩萬台的設備被中共植入木馬被駭客入侵的情況那我們要審慎思考是不是還要跟這個廠商合作或者是要如何去修改一個禮拜之內可以給我回覆嗎"},{"start":771.188,"end":791.354,"text":"是,那我也在一個禮拜內跟委員回覆,那我也要再次跟委員澄清報告,這個任何資安的建制一定是以國家安全作為最高的...當然啊,但我剛剛沒跟你講的時候,你也跟我說你也不知道荷蘭他們的狀況啊,所以我就說你們當然是,你怎麼可能你會在台上講說,哎呀,我們資安不是很重要,這個當然很重要嘛,對不對?"},{"start":791.854,"end":821.15,"text":"可是說這個疑慮的部分你們沒有提早發現那要我現在跟你們說你們才要一個禮拜的時間去調查類似的事情我希望以後在資安的不管從投標開始審查過程專家學者軍方都要更仔細詳細的去做調查以後才讓對方去得標否則類似的疑慮會很多而且後續你們如果還要再修改的話也會讓國人有更多的疑慮那也會對於你們的流程跟程序來說增加更加的負擔那其實是沒有必要的好不好"},{"start":821.611,"end":824.065,"text":"所以麻烦一个礼拜的时间回去了解一下谢谢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}