{"error":false,"id":["167530"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167530,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167530","日期":"2026-03-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-16T12:36:48+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-16T12:47:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e545302d1642c5f6cc7e7f3a5160a1659a7ba446ded26d6bfe91a9b467d8c7ca0b4769cd08d8a1da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:36:48 - 12:47:36","會議時間":"2026-03-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「借鏡近期美國與伊朗衝突，檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能、低成本攔截手段及無人機反制能量」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":0.03096875,"end":10.898468750000003,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":10.645343750000002,"end":11.57346875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":11.40471875,"end":17.56409375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":17.867843750000002,"end":19.926593750000002,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.85471875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":21.816593750000003,"end":23.26784375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":23.70659375,"end":24.044093750000002,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":24.668468750000002,"end":30.000968750000002,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":30.06846875,"end":34.439093750000005,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":34.91159375,"end":64.32471875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":65.03346875,"end":73.09971875000001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":73.35284375,"end":87.15659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":87.24096875000001,"end":87.73034375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":87.74721875,"end":94.48034375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":94.98659375000001,"end":118.27409375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":118.27409375,"end":118.66221875000001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":118.78034375000001,"end":165.00096875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":165.43971875,"end":176.72909375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":177.03284375,"end":184.67721875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":181.38659375,"end":182.12909375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":184.98096875000002,"end":188.22096875000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":188.22096875000003,"end":200.72534375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":188.23784375000002,"end":188.60909375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":201.43409375000002,"end":203.56034375000002,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":203.88096875000002,"end":205.26471875000001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":205.92284375000003,"end":210.58034375000003,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":210.76596875,"end":211.30596875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":211.55909375000002,"end":228.92346875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":229.12596875000003,"end":229.53096875000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":229.53096875000003,"end":229.54784375000003,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":229.56471875000003,"end":239.16659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":239.72346875000002,"end":249.69659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":249.93284375000002,"end":263.60159375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":263.71971875,"end":281.33721875000003,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":282.02909375,"end":294.82034375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":295.36034375,"end":296.62596875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":297.14909375,"end":298.38096875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":299.47784375000003,"end":299.86596875000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":299.86596875000004,"end":300.62534375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":300.77721875000003,"end":305.33346875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":304.28721875,"end":304.57409375000003,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":305.53596875,"end":306.91971875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":306.75096875,"end":306.81846875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":306.91971875,"end":306.97034375000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":306.97034375000004,"end":314.78346875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":307.08846875,"end":307.10534375000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":314.98596875000004,"end":344.92221875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":345.32721875000004,"end":357.03846875000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":348.19596875,"end":348.38159375000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":350.60909375,"end":351.03096875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":357.03846875000005,"end":365.57721875000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":358.10159375,"end":359.24909375000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":366.69096875,"end":372.19221875000005,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":372.78284375000004,"end":375.70221875000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":375.70221875000004,"end":394.51784375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":394.70346875,"end":404.72721875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":404.72721875,"end":423.25596875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":423.52596875,"end":459.21659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":459.75659375000004,"end":462.11909375000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":462.11909375000005,"end":477.61034375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":478.99409375000005,"end":481.66034375000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":482.04846875000004,"end":484.10721875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":484.36034375,"end":489.64221875000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":491.24534375,"end":494.53596875000005,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":494.90721875,"end":495.58221875000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":496.13909375000003,"end":498.95721875000004,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":500.02034375000005,"end":500.22284375000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":500.29034375000003,"end":505.35284375000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":505.65659375,"end":511.69784375000006,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":511.57971875000004,"end":520.43909375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":520.87784375,"end":524.7590937500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":525.1303437500001,"end":549.39659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":549.4978437500001,"end":551.2865937500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":551.97846875,"end":553.53096875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":553.78409375,"end":557.15909375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":556.83846875,"end":563.8247187500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":558.44159375,"end":558.7622187500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":559.4540937500001,"end":560.0278437500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":563.87534375,"end":567.3347187500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":567.6384687500001,"end":574.3547187500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":574.4897187500001,"end":577.5947187500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":577.79721875,"end":596.66346875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":596.8659687500001,"end":598.4015937500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":598.5703437500001,"end":600.02159375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":600.1059687500001,"end":603.85221875,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":604.2065937500001,"end":617.7234687499999,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":618.43221875,"end":618.8034687500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":618.46596875,"end":619.3603437500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":619.4953437500001,"end":622.7353437500001,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":623.54534375,"end":643.32284375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":623.69721875,"end":624.52409375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":644.06534375,"end":645.6684687500001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"鍾委員佳濱","start":645.2634687500001,"end":646.05659375,"speaker_score":0.9},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鍾副部長樹明","start":647.17034375,"end":647.6259687500001,"speaker_score":0.966}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.831,"text":"有請我們中副部長以及副參謀總長執行官黃上將那請整平市的苗司長以及中科院的李院長在旁邊協助"},{"start":18.152,"end":34.211,"text":"好 請以上人員就備宣台創委員好副部長好副總職好我們都算有小小的舊事啦尤其是我們屏東同鄉以你為榮好 現在呢我們看到了中東烽火起啊嘿 下一頁"},{"start":35.452,"end":42.657,"text":"那麼我去剛好上個月去出行的一個印度瑞辛納的一個論壇有114個國家超過700個代表參加我有幸參加討論台海安全的部分結果在我旁邊呢有一個上將是前印度的參謀長 陸軍參謀長在我旁邊的是目前高市早苗總理大臣的補佐官算是行政院的類似副秘書長是空軍少將退下來的我呢是公才補給下士啦"},{"start":65.092,"end":82.646,"text":"但是呢這個不是在談這個軍事專業我們還看到了英國的前首相蘇納克說嚇阻台海衝突的重要性比這個荷末斯海峽更重要所以呢大家都在關注烏俄以及美伊的這些部分那麼有一句話說有人說後勤決定勝敗甚至現在的戰爭打的是工業生產力請問副部長您同意嗎同意"},{"start":87.87,"end":117.021,"text":"我們看一下伊朗怎麼去處理這個我是念歷史的在戰國冊裡面有一個叫做下士對上士知道這個典故嗎伊朗就是這樣他拿兩萬塊美金的建政者136去對付讓你消耗你美國愛國者四百萬美金的飛彈那用飽和攻擊消耗掉你的高價武器用下士耗掉你的上士再讓他的上士對你的中士用他的中士對你的下士這樣的一個戰術思維大概這幾千年來都有這樣的副部長也同意吧"},{"start":117.301,"end":125.808,"text":"伊朗是不是這樣做 是這樣做 好因此我們看到了 因此這些下市也很重要我就是公財補給下市 下市也很重要但是我們看到這兩天的新聞就突然月滿軍購有助軍工產業大爆發估計可以高達創造出4000億的產值事實上去年的產值高達2300億其中無人機屬於下市的佔了129億我是不知道怎麼算出來的啦"},{"start":142.603,"end":150.186,"text":"但是我們 他告訴我們 我們不能只投資上市不能只投資潛艦啊 這個最新的戰機而且呢 也要投資下市 像無人機那麼您認為台灣在投資無人機 我們該怎麼做目前我們整機的製造少 但是我們的零件會外銷全球副部長 你怎麼看待目前台灣無人機產業工業的這個情況"},{"start":165.593,"end":191.045,"text":"跟委員報告整個目前我們整個無人機的產業跟規劃國安部有分三個步驟來做相關的一個推進第一個部分是我們希望能夠立即強化國軍的無人機的戰力這個部分我們就是採國內廠商以及國外成熟的無人機的商品部長我打斷你因為這個題目我關心很久了"},{"start":191.385,"end":209.137,"text":"到目前為止不管是海委會海巡署還是我們國防部整機的得標者呢大部分還是國外的供應商比國內的整機更有優勢你同意嗎好那什麼原因我來跟你講往下看其實目前就算是無人機也有軍用軍規跟軍用商規的像MQ-9"},{"start":211.639,"end":238.249,"text":"B這是美國使神他才能做啊這個我們國家大概沒有辦法但是這些軍用商規的我們國家可以但是受限於我們的國防採購的規模較小所以目前如果要讓軍用商規的擴大一定要增加商用的市場不能只靠國軍採購可以嗎可以好 那我們接下來看但是我們來看一下到底這樣的一個供應鏈過去無人機的產業我們借鏡民航機來看Airbus跟波音它的競爭關係"},{"start":239.77,"end":251.374,"text":"波音美國那麼大從引擎導航機身他什麼都可以做但是歐盟不一樣他們要分工有的做機體有的做翅膀有的做引擎你同意嗎所以這裡面就有一個供應鏈分工還有一個美國怎麼厲害他就算整家都得做他不會全做我們屏東的加工出口區就有廠商在專門接波音的鋁合金的零組件但是要通過什麼"},{"start":263.979,"end":269.965,"text":"通過波音的認證那你大概知道這個市場性吧所以同樣的話告訴你說目前本土的無人機去年129億有110的外銷是零組件到波蘭捷克跟美國到美國的部分你要取得認證波蘭跟捷克它當然去紅就可以我們往下看"},{"start":282.077,"end":296.386,"text":"所以我們看到美國現在有Green跟Blue的嘛是不是這樣目前我們台灣能夠賣到美國的零組件大概都有到Green的有的要去拿Blue他才有辦法進去但是我們看到了我們零組件型整機有沒有辦法有沒有可能跟美國競爭"},{"start":299.886,"end":311.038,"text":"系統開發對 必須要看廠商他取不取得這個綠色跟藍色等等假設他在美國那個是指零組件對也就是說 我整機 我就算是全部我都有辦法拿到綠色 藍色的我整機的開發系統啊 還是要實測嘛"},{"start":315.557,"end":325.184,"text":"所以說如果我們有足夠的實測我們沒辦法跟美國跟烏克蘭競爭嘛因為他們是有實際的經驗誰要買你台灣沒有經過戰場驗證的對不對所以說我們現在需要什麼呢需要兩個東西一個是驗證機構也就是說軍方可能沒有辦法來提供驗證但是國內應該讓經濟部像以前的車測中心他就為我們的我們台灣雖然不能做整輛的汽車外銷但是我們的汽車零組件外銷的很多就是因為我們有驗證中心這個是不是國防部的權責"},{"start":345.818,"end":360.389,"text":"這個在行政院有整體的規劃目前今年在民雄那是誰負責哪個部會負責這個部分是行政院以及我們中科院共同來配合推動經濟部也要參與但是不是國防部的 國防部是什麼除了驗證之外要實測實測的場域在誰手上我們防護總值是不是這樣空軍是不是過去用掉了大部分空域"},{"start":372.717,"end":379.544,"text":"有一部分是在國防部管制的這種...是的 我要說的是說台灣的戰場情境跟烏克蘭不同他們過來要大量的海洋海洋跟山林它在地表的特徵是完全不同的如果我們的無人機的實測不能取得各種戰場情境的場域去是非我們的整機是沒辦法跟人家競爭的 你同意嗎"},{"start":394.699,"end":410.565,"text":"同意 現在整個行政院已經有規劃幾個水上大型無人機測試的場域包含在屏東以及在南部的海域是的 所以這裡我要給您建議您可以看最近台航的總經理他發表了一篇文章我覺得蠻有道理的他說除了這些現場實測的場域之外軍方要開放之外還有實際搭載武器現在我們整機的無人艇或無人機要做到了雖然是商規要軍用它一定要有火力彈藥"},{"start":423.83,"end":431.857,"text":"這個部分在國內是管制品我不可能我隨便去買一個去路邊買一個榴彈我就掛在我的四軸無人機我去試飛看會炸得中炸不中不可能一定要軍方協助所以未來5G的搭載也是一個課題再往下看所以我們現在美軍他也積極的去學習烏克蘭跟伊朗的經驗烏克蘭派無人機專家去到美國的約旦基地區協防美國的無人機也偷偷的把伊朗的做逆向工程把它整個拷貝過去了"},{"start":452.034,"end":477.287,"text":"美國這樣的做法會不會說以那麼高科技的國家來學習這種低級的技術你會不會覺得他太委屈了還是覺得這是很務實的做法這是很務實的做法 現在我們國軍也在做很好 那我就是說了所以說我們看到我們看到責任司機他說無人機的經驗開始來協助對抗伊朗但是以色列怎麼做 烏克蘭怎麼做我們國防部的官方說我們要主動反制 被動防禦等還要持續的引進新興科技怎麼引進"},{"start":479.065,"end":489.334,"text":"我們的外交處境這麼艱難,你有辦法派我們的制服的軍方人員去嗎?我舉例啦,民間常常開玩笑說,現在台灣有很多美語教師啊,什麼是美語教師?就是美方的軍事人員來我們這邊跟我們做軍事技術交流的嘛。你覺得我們台灣可以派台語教師去烏克蘭嗎?"},{"start":501.235,"end":524.551,"text":"簡單說說我們現在跟國外其實有相關的無人機合作技術的交流跟發展尤其在各無人機的訓練中也有相關的交流那這個部分可以單獨再跟委員沒有關係你單獨私下講我可以公開的講什麼其實烏克蘭台灣的科大教育很發達科大的系統有很多我們台灣的科系是具有這樣的一個基礎工程能力的"},{"start":525.371,"end":538.323,"text":"烏克蘭的大學他們目前也類似科大全力在支援烏克蘭軍方他們在這些無人機的相關的工程電子零件而且呢他們也很佩服台灣他們認為台灣在電子零件而工程上很先進所以有沒有可能我們從台灣的科大找這些電子工程機械相關領域的專家或教授甚至高階的研究生去跟烏克蘭的科大交流一下你覺得有沒有幫助"},{"start":552.288,"end":576.882,"text":"這個可能要牽涉到我們現在跟這個虎尾科大幾個學校有做什麼我都還沒說出名字你就說出來了虎尾科大對 虎尾科大是國內目前啊這個相關航空領域他很積極的對 覺溫裕校長我都跟他很熟所以呢你跟虎尾科大有什麼合作我們現在確實有跟他做一些協助性的一個合作跟交流也有一些協助研究請他們再做那他們能不能到烏克蘭去這可能我們就是不是"},{"start":578.09,"end":603.604,"text":"這個就需要行政院包括外交部跟教育部去協助其實我剛從印度回來台灣很多跟非邦交國我們是透過這種科學研究的教育交流的方式去建立關係所以呢這個部分請副部長要跟部長報告一下幫我們爭取國防部爭取這個台語教師到烏克蘭好不好就是我們看最後的三個結論就是跟部會共商建立我國軍用商規的認證機制這可能中科院"},{"start":604.284,"end":612.887,"text":"跟我們的經濟部要協助我們的供應鏈的取得比照美國Green跟Blue的第二個這個是你們可以做到的無人機載具的這個不是封測測試實測的場域可以嗎可以合理的提供武器測試的一個申請流程可以嗎"},{"start":623.601,"end":642.828,"text":"也有了 最後請你們在行政院爭取請外交部跟教育部協助讓我們台灣具有烏克蘭也希望跟我們交流經驗的包括電子工程師 包括機械工程師包括這些學士後的這些比較高階的研究人員可以用科技大學跟科技大學的方式去交流取得一些烏克蘭的經驗 您支持嗎這部分我們努力努力 好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:36:48+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:36:49+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:36:48.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:36:48.689000+08:00","text":"有請鍾副部長以及副參謀總長執行官黃上將。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T12:36:48.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:36:49.689000+08:00","text":"請副部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:36:48.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:36:50.811000+08:00","text":"請整評司的苗司長以及中科院的李院長在旁邊協助。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:06.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:37:07.694000+08:00","text":"好，請以上人員就備詢臺。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:08.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:37:08.675000+08:00","text":"鍾委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:10.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:37:13.221000+08:00","text":"副部長好，副總執好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:13.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:37:17.666000+08:00","text":"我們都算小小的舊識，尤其是我們屏東同鄉以你為榮。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:18.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:37:55.854000+08:00","text":"現在我們看到中東烽火起，我剛好上個月出席了印度「瑞辛納對話」，有110個國家，超過700個代表參加，我有幸參加討論臺海安全的部分，就在我旁邊的旁邊有一個上將是印度的前陸軍參謀長，在我旁邊的是目前高市早苗總理大臣的補佐官，類似行政院的副秘書長，是空軍少將退下來的，我是工材補給下士，但是這個不是在談軍事專業。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:37:55.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:10.626000+08:00","text":"我們看到英國的前首相蘇納克說嚇阻臺海衝突的重要性比荷姆茲海峽更重要，所以大家都在關注烏俄以及美伊的部分，有人說後勤決定勝敗，甚至現在的戰爭打的是工業生產力，請問副部長，您同意嗎？同意。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:10.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:15.870000+08:00","text":"同意，好，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:15.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:26.114000+08:00","text":"我們看一下伊朗怎麼處理，我是念歷史的，在戰國策裡面有一個叫做下駟對上駟，知道這個典故嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:26.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:45.001000+08:00","text":"伊朗就是這樣，他拿2萬美金的見證者136消耗美國400萬美金的愛國者飛彈，用飽和攻擊，消耗掉高價武器，用下駟耗掉你的上駟，再讓它的上駟對你的中駟，用它的中駟對你的下駟，這樣的戰術思維大概這幾千年來都有，副部長也同意吧？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:45.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:46.942000+08:00","text":"伊朗是不是這樣做？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:47.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:47.483000+08:00","text":"是這樣做，好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:48.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:38:51.226000+08:00","text":"因此這些下駟也很重要，我就是工材補給下士，下士也很重要。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:38:51.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:39:16.065000+08:00","text":"但是我們看到這兩天的新聞又說，院版軍購有助軍工產業大爆發，估計可以創造出高達4,000億的產值，事實上去年的產值高達2,300億，其中屬於下駟的無人機占了129億，我是不曉得怎麼算出來的，但是他告訴我們不能只投資上駟，不能只投資潛艦、最新的戰機，也要投資下駟，像無人機，那麼您認為臺灣投資無人機，我們該怎麼做？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:39:16.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:39:18.186000+08:00","text":"目前我們的整機製造少，但是我們的零件會外銷全球，副部長，你怎麼看待目前臺灣無人機產業供應鏈的情況？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:39:33.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:39:56.164000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前我們整個無人機的產業跟規劃，國防部有分三個步驟來做相關的推進，第一個部分是我們希望能夠立即強化國軍的無人機戰力，這個部分我們就是採國內廠商以及國外成熟的無人機商品……","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:39:56.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:40:09.472000+08:00","text":"副部長，我打斷你，因為這個題目我關心很久了，到目前為止，不管是海委會、海巡署還是國防部，整機的得標者大部分還是國外的供應商比國內的整機更有優勢，你同意嗎？好。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:40:09.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:40:35.705000+08:00","text":"什麼原因我來跟你講，往下看，其實目前就算是無人機也有軍用軍規跟軍用商規的，像MQ-9B、「死神」，這是美國才能做，這個我們國家大概沒有辦法，但是這些軍用商規的，我們國家可以做，但受限於我們國防採購規模較小，所以如果要讓軍用商規擴大，一定要增加商用市場，不能只靠國軍採購，你同意嗎？同意。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:40:36.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:40:56.993000+08:00","text":"好，我們往下看，無人機產業這樣的供應鏈，我們借鏡民航機來看，AIRBUS跟波音的競爭關係，美國那麼大，波因從引擎、導航、機身，它什麼都可以做，但是歐盟不一樣，他們要分工，有的做機體、有的做翅膀、有的做引擎，你同意嘛？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:40:57.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:13.901000+08:00","text":"所以這裡面就有供應鏈分工，而美國為什麼厲害，它就算是整架都可以做，但它不會全做，我們屏東的加工出口區就有廠商在專門接波音的鋁合金零組件，但是要通過波音的認證，你大概也知道這個事情。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:15.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:30.197000+08:00","text":"所以同樣地，我要告訴你，目前本土的無人機，去年129億有100億的外銷是零組件到波蘭、捷克跟美國，到美國的部分要取得認證，波蘭跟捷克，去紅就可以。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:30.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:33.099000+08:00","text":"我們看到美國現在有分Green跟Blue認證，是不是這樣？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:33.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:43.985000+08:00","text":"目前我們臺灣能夠賣到美國的零組件大概都有到Green，有的要去拿Blue才有辦法進去，但是我們零組件可以，整機有沒有辦法？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:44.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:44.386000+08:00","text":"系統開發有沒有可能跟美國競爭？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:49.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:53.632000+08:00","text":"必須要看廠商是否取得綠色跟藍色認證，假設可以，它跟美國……","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:53.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:41:55.234000+08:00","text":"不是，那是指零組件。對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:41:55.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:09.201000+08:00","text":"也就是說，整機全部都有辦法拿到綠色、藍色的認證，整機的開發系統還是要實測嘛，所以如果我沒有足夠的實測，就沒辦法跟美國及烏克蘭競爭，因為他們有實際的經驗，誰要買你臺灣沒有經過戰場驗證的，對不對？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:09.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:13.184000+08:00","text":"所以我們需要兩個東西，一個是驗證機構，也就是軍方可能沒有辦法來提供驗證，但是國內應該要建立像經濟部以前的車測中心，臺灣雖然不能做整輛的汽車外銷，但是我們汽車零組件外銷的很多，就是因為我們有驗證中心，這是不是國防部的權責？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:33.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:36.940000+08:00","text":"這個在行政院有整體的規劃，目前規劃117年在民雄……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:37.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:41.003000+08:00","text":"在民雄，那是誰負責、哪個部會負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:41.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:44.706000+08:00","text":"這個部分是行政院以及我們中科院共同來配合推動。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:44.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:44.866000+08:00","text":"經濟部也要參與。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:44.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:45.866000+08:00","text":"對，經濟部也在其中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:44.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:46.067000+08:00","text":"好，但不是國防部，國防部的權責是什麼，除了驗證之外，要實測，實測的場域在誰手上？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:46.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:47.288000+08:00","text":"黃副總執，是不是這樣？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:42:47.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:42:48.369000+08:00","text":"空軍過去是不是用掉大部分的空域？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃副參謀總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-03-16T12:43:00.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:43:03.140000+08:00","text":"是，有一部分是在國防部管制的這種……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:43:03.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:43:07.544000+08:00","text":"是的，我要說的是臺灣的戰場情境跟烏克蘭不同，他們過來要經過海洋，海洋跟山林在地表的特徵是完全不同的，如果我們無人機的實測不能取得各種戰場情境的場域試飛，我們的整機是沒辦法跟人家競爭的，你同意嗎？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:43:22.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:43:32.383000+08:00","text":"同意，現在行政院已經有規劃幾個水上大型無人機測試的場域，包含在屏東以及在南部的海域。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:43:32.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:43:56.895000+08:00","text":"是的，所以這裡我要給你建議，你可以看最近台航的總經理發表了一篇文章，我覺得蠻有道理的，他說除了軍方要開放這些現場實測的場域之外，還有實際搭載武器，現在我們整機的無人艇或無人機，雖然是商規要軍用，它一定要有火力彈藥，這個部分在國內是管制品，我不可能隨便去路邊買一個榴彈就掛在我的四軸無人機試飛，看炸得中、炸不中，不可能，一定要軍方協助，所以未來武器的搭載也是一個課題。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:43:56.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:27.058000+08:00","text":"再往下看，現在美軍也積極地學習烏克蘭跟伊朗的經驗，烏克蘭派無人機專家到美軍約旦基地協防，美國也偷偷地把伊朗的無人機做逆向工程，整個拷貝過去了，美國這樣的做法，以那麼高科技的國家來學習這樣的低階技術，你會不會覺得它太委屈了，還是覺得這是很務實的做法？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:27.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:30.299000+08:00","text":"這是很務實的做法，現在我們國軍也在做。很好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:32.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:38.723000+08:00","text":"我們看到澤倫斯基說以烏克蘭反無人機經驗協助對抗伊朗，但是以色列怎麼做、烏克蘭怎麼做？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:39.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:45.287000+08:00","text":"國防部專案報告說我們要主動反制、被動防禦等，還要持續引進新興科技，怎麼引進？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:47.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:52.470000+08:00","text":"我們的外交處境這麼艱難，你有辦法派我們穿制服的軍方人員去嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:52.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:55.772000+08:00","text":"我舉例，民間常常開玩笑說現在臺灣有很多美語教師，什麼是美語教師？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:44:55.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:44:57.334000+08:00","text":"就是美方的軍事人員來這邊跟我們做軍事技術交流，你覺得我們臺灣可以派臺語教師去烏克蘭嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:45:09.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:45:19.842000+08:00","text":"簡單說，我們現在跟國外其實有相關的無人機合作技術的交流跟發展，尤其在無人機的訓練中也有相關的交流，這個部分可以單獨跟委員做說明。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:45:19.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:45:23.104000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你單獨的私下講，但我可以公開的講什麼？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:45:24.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:45:46.303000+08:00","text":"臺灣的科大教育很發達，科大的系統有很多，我們臺灣的科系是具有這樣的基礎工程能力，烏克蘭的大學目前也類似科大，全力在支援烏克蘭軍方，他們在這些無人機的相關工程、電子、零件，而且他們也很佩服臺灣，他們認為臺灣在電子、零件、工程上很先進，所以有沒有可能我們從臺灣的科大找這些電子工程、機械相關領域的專家或教授，甚至高階的研究生去跟烏克蘭的科大交流一下，你覺得有沒有幫助？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:01.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:04.751000+08:00","text":"我們現在跟虎尾科大等幾個學校有做……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:04.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:06.311000+08:00","text":"我都還沒有說出名字，你就說出來了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:06.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:07.212000+08:00","text":"虎尾科大，對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:07.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:15.116000+08:00","text":"虎尾科大是國內目前相關航空領域很積極的，我跟覺文郁校長很熟，所以你跟虎尾科大怎麼合作？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:15.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:24.702000+08:00","text":"我們現在確實有跟他們做一些學術性的合作跟交流，也有請他們做一些學術研究，他們能不能到烏克蘭去，這可能就不是我們……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:26.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:28.712000+08:00","text":"這個就需要行政院，包括外交部跟教育部去協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:29.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:44.380000+08:00","text":"其實我剛剛從印度回來，臺灣很多跟非邦交國是透過這種科學研究的教育交流方式去跟他們建立關係，所以這個部分請副部長要跟部長報告一下，幫國防部爭取臺語教師到烏克蘭，好不好？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:45.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:46:59.707000+08:00","text":"我們看最後的三個結論：跟部會共商，建立我國軍用商規的認證機制，這可能中科院跟經濟部要協助我們的供應鏈取得比照美國Green跟Blue的認證；第二個，這是你們可以做到的，無人機載具的實測場域，可以嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:59.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:00.707000+08:00","text":"現在已經有了。可以。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:46:59.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:00.887000+08:00","text":"合理提供武器測試的申請流程，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:00.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:11.601000+08:00","text":"現在也已經有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:11.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:11.881000+08:00","text":"也有了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:12.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:30.228000+08:00","text":"最後，請你們在行政院爭取，請外交部跟教育部協助，讓臺灣具有烏克蘭也希望跟我們有交流經驗的，包括電子工程師、包括機械工程師、包括學士後的這些比較高階的研究人員，可以用科技大學跟科技大學的方式去交流，取得一些烏克蘭經驗，您支持嗎？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:30.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:30.688000+08:00","text":"這部分我們努力看看。努力。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:30.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:30.828000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:31.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:32.470857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-16T12:47:32.770857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-16T12:47:36.485143+08:00","text":"接下來請蔡易餘委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}