{"error":false,"id":["167530"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167530,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167530","日期":"2026-03-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-16T12:36:48+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-16T12:47:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e545302d1642c5f6cc7e7f3a5160a1659a7ba446ded26d6bfe91a9b467d8c7ca0b4769cd08d8a1da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:36:48 - 12:47:36","會議時間":"2026-03-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「借鏡近期美國與伊朗衝突，檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能、低成本攔截手段及無人機反制能量」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.40471875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.816593750000003,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.70659375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":30.000968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.91159375,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.03346875,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.35284375,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.24096875000001,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.74721875,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.98659375000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.27409375,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.78034375000001,"end":165.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.43971875,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.03284375,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.38659375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.98096875000002,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.22096875000003,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.23784375000002,"end":188.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.43409375000002,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.92284375000003,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.76596875,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.55909375000002,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.12596875000003,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.53096875000003,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.56471875000003,"end":239.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.72346875000002,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.93284375000002,"end":263.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.71971875,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":294.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.36034375,"end":296.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.14909375,"end":298.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.47784375000003,"end":299.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.86596875000004,"end":300.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.28721875,"end":304.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.53596875,"end":306.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.75096875,"end":306.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.91971875,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.97034375000004,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.08846875,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.98596875000004,"end":344.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.32721875000004,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.19596875,"end":348.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.60909375,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.03846875000005,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.10159375,"end":359.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.69096875,"end":372.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.78284375000004,"end":375.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.70221875000004,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.70346875,"end":404.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.72721875,"end":423.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.52596875,"end":459.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.75659375000004,"end":462.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.11909375000005,"end":477.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.99409375000005,"end":481.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.04846875000004,"end":484.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.36034375,"end":489.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.24534375,"end":494.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.90721875,"end":495.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.13909375000003,"end":498.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.02034375000005,"end":500.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.29034375000003,"end":505.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.65659375,"end":511.69784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.57971875000004,"end":520.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.87784375,"end":524.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1303437500001,"end":549.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.4978437500001,"end":551.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.97846875,"end":553.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.78409375,"end":557.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.83846875,"end":563.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.44159375,"end":558.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.4540937500001,"end":560.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.87534375,"end":567.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.6384687500001,"end":574.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.4897187500001,"end":577.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.79721875,"end":596.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.8659687500001,"end":598.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.5703437500001,"end":600.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.1059687500001,"end":603.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.2065937500001,"end":617.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.43221875,"end":618.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.46596875,"end":619.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.4953437500001,"end":622.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.54534375,"end":643.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.69721875,"end":624.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.06534375,"end":645.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.2634687500001,"end":646.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.17034375,"end":647.6259687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.831,"text":"有請我們中副部長以及副參謀總長執行官黃上將那請整平市的苗司長以及中科院的李院長在旁邊協助"},{"start":18.152,"end":34.211,"text":"好 請以上人員就備宣台創委員好副部長好副總職好我們都算有小小的舊事啦尤其是我們屏東同鄉以你為榮好 現在呢我們看到了中東烽火起啊嘿 下一頁"},{"start":35.452,"end":42.657,"text":"那麼我去剛好上個月去出行的一個印度瑞辛納的一個論壇有114個國家超過700個代表參加我有幸參加討論台海安全的部分結果在我旁邊呢有一個上將是前印度的參謀長 陸軍參謀長在我旁邊的是目前高市早苗總理大臣的補佐官算是行政院的類似副秘書長是空軍少將退下來的我呢是公才補給下士啦"},{"start":65.092,"end":82.646,"text":"但是呢這個不是在談這個軍事專業我們還看到了英國的前首相蘇納克說嚇阻台海衝突的重要性比這個荷末斯海峽更重要所以呢大家都在關注烏俄以及美伊的這些部分那麼有一句話說有人說後勤決定勝敗甚至現在的戰爭打的是工業生產力請問副部長您同意嗎同意"},{"start":87.87,"end":117.021,"text":"我們看一下伊朗怎麼去處理這個我是念歷史的在戰國冊裡面有一個叫做下士對上士知道這個典故嗎伊朗就是這樣他拿兩萬塊美金的建政者136去對付讓你消耗你美國愛國者四百萬美金的飛彈那用飽和攻擊消耗掉你的高價武器用下士耗掉你的上士再讓他的上士對你的中士用他的中士對你的下士這樣的一個戰術思維大概這幾千年來都有這樣的副部長也同意吧"},{"start":117.301,"end":125.808,"text":"伊朗是不是這樣做 是這樣做 好因此我們看到了 因此這些下市也很重要我就是公財補給下市 下市也很重要但是我們看到這兩天的新聞就突然月滿軍購有助軍工產業大爆發估計可以高達創造出4000億的產值事實上去年的產值高達2300億其中無人機屬於下市的佔了129億我是不知道怎麼算出來的啦"},{"start":142.603,"end":150.186,"text":"但是我們 他告訴我們 我們不能只投資上市不能只投資潛艦啊 這個最新的戰機而且呢 也要投資下市 像無人機那麼您認為台灣在投資無人機 我們該怎麼做目前我們整機的製造少 但是我們的零件會外銷全球副部長 你怎麼看待目前台灣無人機產業工業的這個情況"},{"start":165.593,"end":191.045,"text":"跟委員報告整個目前我們整個無人機的產業跟規劃國安部有分三個步驟來做相關的一個推進第一個部分是我們希望能夠立即強化國軍的無人機的戰力這個部分我們就是採國內廠商以及國外成熟的無人機的商品部長我打斷你因為這個題目我關心很久了"},{"start":191.385,"end":209.137,"text":"到目前為止不管是海委會海巡署還是我們國防部整機的得標者呢大部分還是國外的供應商比國內的整機更有優勢你同意嗎好那什麼原因我來跟你講往下看其實目前就算是無人機也有軍用軍規跟軍用商規的像MQ-9"},{"start":211.639,"end":238.249,"text":"B這是美國使神他才能做啊這個我們國家大概沒有辦法但是這些軍用商規的我們國家可以但是受限於我們的國防採購的規模較小所以目前如果要讓軍用商規的擴大一定要增加商用的市場不能只靠國軍採購可以嗎可以好 那我們接下來看但是我們來看一下到底這樣的一個供應鏈過去無人機的產業我們借鏡民航機來看Airbus跟波音它的競爭關係"},{"start":239.77,"end":251.374,"text":"波音美國那麼大從引擎導航機身他什麼都可以做但是歐盟不一樣他們要分工有的做機體有的做翅膀有的做引擎你同意嗎所以這裡面就有一個供應鏈分工還有一個美國怎麼厲害他就算整家都得做他不會全做我們屏東的加工出口區就有廠商在專門接波音的鋁合金的零組件但是要通過什麼"},{"start":263.979,"end":269.965,"text":"通過波音的認證那你大概知道這個市場性吧所以同樣的話告訴你說目前本土的無人機去年129億有110的外銷是零組件到波蘭捷克跟美國到美國的部分你要取得認證波蘭跟捷克它當然去紅就可以我們往下看"},{"start":282.077,"end":296.386,"text":"所以我們看到美國現在有Green跟Blue的嘛是不是這樣目前我們台灣能夠賣到美國的零組件大概都有到Green的有的要去拿Blue他才有辦法進去但是我們看到了我們零組件型整機有沒有辦法有沒有可能跟美國競爭"},{"start":299.886,"end":311.038,"text":"系統開發對 必須要看廠商他取不取得這個綠色跟藍色等等假設他在美國那個是指零組件對也就是說 我整機 我就算是全部我都有辦法拿到綠色 藍色的我整機的開發系統啊 還是要實測嘛"},{"start":315.557,"end":325.184,"text":"所以說如果我們有足夠的實測我們沒辦法跟美國跟烏克蘭競爭嘛因為他們是有實際的經驗誰要買你台灣沒有經過戰場驗證的對不對所以說我們現在需要什麼呢需要兩個東西一個是驗證機構也就是說軍方可能沒有辦法來提供驗證但是國內應該讓經濟部像以前的車測中心他就為我們的我們台灣雖然不能做整輛的汽車外銷但是我們的汽車零組件外銷的很多就是因為我們有驗證中心這個是不是國防部的權責"},{"start":345.818,"end":360.389,"text":"這個在行政院有整體的規劃目前今年在民雄那是誰負責哪個部會負責這個部分是行政院以及我們中科院共同來配合推動經濟部也要參與但是不是國防部的 國防部是什麼除了驗證之外要實測實測的場域在誰手上我們防護總值是不是這樣空軍是不是過去用掉了大部分空域"},{"start":372.717,"end":379.544,"text":"有一部分是在國防部管制的這種...是的 我要說的是說台灣的戰場情境跟烏克蘭不同他們過來要大量的海洋海洋跟山林它在地表的特徵是完全不同的如果我們的無人機的實測不能取得各種戰場情境的場域去是非我們的整機是沒辦法跟人家競爭的 你同意嗎"},{"start":394.699,"end":410.565,"text":"同意 現在整個行政院已經有規劃幾個水上大型無人機測試的場域包含在屏東以及在南部的海域是的 所以這裡我要給您建議您可以看最近台航的總經理他發表了一篇文章我覺得蠻有道理的他說除了這些現場實測的場域之外軍方要開放之外還有實際搭載武器現在我們整機的無人艇或無人機要做到了雖然是商規要軍用它一定要有火力彈藥"},{"start":423.83,"end":431.857,"text":"這個部分在國內是管制品我不可能我隨便去買一個去路邊買一個榴彈我就掛在我的四軸無人機我去試飛看會炸得中炸不中不可能一定要軍方協助所以未來5G的搭載也是一個課題再往下看所以我們現在美軍他也積極的去學習烏克蘭跟伊朗的經驗烏克蘭派無人機專家去到美國的約旦基地區協防美國的無人機也偷偷的把伊朗的做逆向工程把它整個拷貝過去了"},{"start":452.034,"end":477.287,"text":"美國這樣的做法會不會說以那麼高科技的國家來學習這種低級的技術你會不會覺得他太委屈了還是覺得這是很務實的做法這是很務實的做法 現在我們國軍也在做很好 那我就是說了所以說我們看到我們看到責任司機他說無人機的經驗開始來協助對抗伊朗但是以色列怎麼做 烏克蘭怎麼做我們國防部的官方說我們要主動反制 被動防禦等還要持續的引進新興科技怎麼引進"},{"start":479.065,"end":489.334,"text":"我們的外交處境這麼艱難,你有辦法派我們的制服的軍方人員去嗎?我舉例啦,民間常常開玩笑說,現在台灣有很多美語教師啊,什麼是美語教師?就是美方的軍事人員來我們這邊跟我們做軍事技術交流的嘛。你覺得我們台灣可以派台語教師去烏克蘭嗎?"},{"start":501.235,"end":524.551,"text":"簡單說說我們現在跟國外其實有相關的無人機合作技術的交流跟發展尤其在各無人機的訓練中也有相關的交流那這個部分可以單獨再跟委員沒有關係你單獨私下講我可以公開的講什麼其實烏克蘭台灣的科大教育很發達科大的系統有很多我們台灣的科系是具有這樣的一個基礎工程能力的"},{"start":525.371,"end":538.323,"text":"烏克蘭的大學他們目前也類似科大全力在支援烏克蘭軍方他們在這些無人機的相關的工程電子零件而且呢他們也很佩服台灣他們認為台灣在電子零件而工程上很先進所以有沒有可能我們從台灣的科大找這些電子工程機械相關領域的專家或教授甚至高階的研究生去跟烏克蘭的科大交流一下你覺得有沒有幫助"},{"start":552.288,"end":576.882,"text":"這個可能要牽涉到我們現在跟這個虎尾科大幾個學校有做什麼我都還沒說出名字你就說出來了虎尾科大對 虎尾科大是國內目前啊這個相關航空領域他很積極的對 覺溫裕校長我都跟他很熟所以呢你跟虎尾科大有什麼合作我們現在確實有跟他做一些協助性的一個合作跟交流也有一些協助研究請他們再做那他們能不能到烏克蘭去這可能我們就是不是"},{"start":578.09,"end":603.604,"text":"這個就需要行政院包括外交部跟教育部去協助其實我剛從印度回來台灣很多跟非邦交國我們是透過這種科學研究的教育交流的方式去建立關係所以呢這個部分請副部長要跟部長報告一下幫我們爭取國防部爭取這個台語教師到烏克蘭好不好就是我們看最後的三個結論就是跟部會共商建立我國軍用商規的認證機制這可能中科院"},{"start":604.284,"end":612.887,"text":"跟我們的經濟部要協助我們的供應鏈的取得比照美國Green跟Blue的第二個這個是你們可以做到的無人機載具的這個不是封測測試實測的場域可以嗎可以合理的提供武器測試的一個申請流程可以嗎"},{"start":623.601,"end":642.828,"text":"也有了 最後請你們在行政院爭取請外交部跟教育部協助讓我們台灣具有烏克蘭也希望跟我們交流經驗的包括電子工程師 包括機械工程師包括這些學士後的這些比較高階的研究人員可以用科技大學跟科技大學的方式去交流取得一些烏克蘭的經驗 您支持嗎這部分我們努力努力 好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}