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麻煩請卓院長 請外交部部長 請內政部部長卓院長還有外交部部長 內政部部長請備詢"},{"start":33.619,"end":61.562,"text":"馬文好院長好部長好今天我們就幾個議題我們希望跟院長還有我們幾個部會來做探討的就是說現在其實在很多的霸凌的面向上面不管是在校園的霸凌也好職場的霸凌也好或者各個場域的霸凌現在其實還是充斥在我們的周遭我們也常常看到很多相關的訊息"},{"start":62.403,"end":69.099,"text":"那院長不曉得對於霸凌有什麼樣的一個看法或者有什麼樣的因應之道"},{"start":69.713,"end":98.973,"text":"是謝謝委員的提醒我們是從過去我們有部會發生過嚴重的這種事端之後我們從內部跟外部都做了相關的一些必要的這個防範的措施申訴的管道讓他更暢通申訴的層級也讓他提高甚至引進外部的力量來對這些案件做有效的一個最後的一個裁判讓所有被申訴人能夠在被保護的狀態底下勇於說出自己不公平被對待的這樣的過程"},{"start":99.974,"end":108.87,"text":"那麼也因為有更專業的心理的智商的問題讓他能夠事後得到這樣的一個心理的五福位這個我們都全面在各個部會裡面全面展開"},{"start":109.761,"end":138.957,"text":"所以其實我們在很多職場的霸凌上面就是說包括總是被貶義被批評或者像不公平的一個待遇刻意的排擠孤立等等包括勞動部其實大概也做了很多的一個宣傳職場的冷暴力被同意刻意的疏遠排擠貶低批評羞辱惡意的操弄等等其實這個就是職場的冷暴力這個也是霸凌那我們很希望其實他"},{"start":140.278,"end":165.36,"text":"應該在我們這個自由民主的國家這麼重視人權的一個國家我們應該要好好的守住這樣子的一個它的一個大方向尤其我們應該要守住這樣子的一個照顧就是每一個人都應該被照顧所以接下來我想要請教我們的外交部長我們現在我們過去像丹麥他給我們"},{"start":166.641,"end":194.415,"text":"就是在居留證上面他從台灣本來你的國籍他可以寫台灣現在變成中國他從2024年3月一直到現在2026年3月已經長達兩年的時間那他有沒有改變我們在持續交涉中那我們也對應的降低丹麥駐台代表跟他們這個辦事處的一些"},{"start":195.871,"end":210.303,"text":"特權另外我們也協調了包括G7在內的歐洲國家協助希望丹麥依照歐盟國家對我們的這個交往的一個標準來進行"},{"start":211.503,"end":236.633,"text":"但是他們因為有特定的人的立場目前其實我們還在交涉中那另外就是在近期發生的就是韓國韓國跟我們其實來往非常密切我們國人到韓國旅遊的我們的貿易的經貿的往來各方面其實還包括很多的競賽等等其實韓國可能也是我們可能會選擇去的一個很重要的一個國家"},{"start":237.193,"end":262.137,"text":"可是他近期在他的那個簽證電子簽證上面也要求可能在國籍上面是寫中國台灣那目前我們的因應作為是叫國人盡量是填寫那個文書就是可能用書面的所以在這個部分我們又做了什麼樣的一個努力現在韓國有做調整改變了嗎"},{"start":263.148,"end":289.584,"text":"報告委員本來韓國是2月1號開始要全面電子化這些路徑的表格那經過我們交涉他們還是維持紙本跟電子化並行可是我們相對應也對南韓我們現在稱為南韓他在台灣的這些登錄包括戶籍資料就以南韓稱之另外涉及到對等我們也已經做好準備經過國安會還有我們跟內政部"},{"start":291.655,"end":313.451,"text":"這個移民署等的協調我們也有配套的做法總之外交就是秉持對等尊嚴對 部長可是我們還是沒有辦法改變現狀先暫時停止它繼續惡化我知道 你說在國內我們稱它南韓可是它所有在全世界各地其實大家稱呼它是不會改變的就這個部分我們也希望其實就國際現狀我們很理解"},{"start":315.652,"end":331.435,"text":"所以我們也能夠支持我們所有的外交的努力然後在還不能改變現狀的情況之下我們希望給大家機會然後你有更多的空間時間然後更強力的去表達我們自己的訴求"},{"start":332.176,"end":346.307,"text":"那接下來我想要請教我們的內政部劉部長我想請教一下如果說我們中華民國的國人我們已經有身份證存在的我們到底要怎麼樣去看待他"},{"start":348.186,"end":367.615,"text":"你是說到韓國駒的事情還是不是就是如果說我們中華民國的國人任何一個國民我們要應該怎麼樣去對待不管他來自哪裡如果他有中華民國身份證的話那當然他是等同於我們中華民國所有的權利義務都包含在內"},{"start":368.875,"end":385.794,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為現在大家最近這段時間包括剛剛也有委員關切到就我們現在有一位委員其實他的身份到現在還是雖然我們在行政團隊對他不予認同"},{"start":386.915,"end":412.408,"text":"甚至剛剛我講的這些冷暴力或者像各種這樣子的批評羞辱我覺得已經讓大家在我們在地方上我們聽到很多的聲音因為它不應該發生在我們國家裡面今天任何一個他已經在這裡生活了三十幾年即使他過去有在中國大陸出生的"},{"start":414.089,"end":440.998,"text":"剛剛我們提到的包括外交處境你現在的現況我們請國家之力你都沒有辦法去改變一個國家說把我們的那個名稱把它改回來今天我們如果有辦法你今天是一個行政團隊你今天如果他是非常不恰當或者他就是違法的你直接把它停掉當你還沒有辦法做到這樣的時候我們希望尊重每一個人"},{"start":441.678,"end":467.725,"text":"因為那樣子的被對待今天雖然我出生在台灣我也一直愛台灣可是我們一直被貶義說你親中賣台那些我們也把它吞下來這個是沒有辦法被別人貼標籤的可是當今天有一個人他現在還有這樣的身份你們這樣的對待我覺得已經超過了如果可能"},{"start":468.465,"end":485.016,"text":"既然行政團隊你可以釋憲你可以不附屬你可以去解釋包括我們的預算接下來等一下要談的你都可以在幾天前你的解釋是違憲跟違法可是現在又可以同意他"},{"start":485.576,"end":501.676,"text":"去做這樣的實施所以我想看我們怎麼樣去解釋這個事情今天三位站在這裡我們只希望給予人基本的尊重今天如果他不行你們就直接說他不行直接找出一條法律"},{"start":502.076,"end":521.096,"text":"就讓他離開他今天可以站在國會殿堂表示他還有這樣的資格請尊重每一個人每一個中華民國所有的國人這是我們想要講的我想要表達的我想問一下我們按照國籍法第一個中華民國國民他有參政權"},{"start":522.217,"end":528.62,"text":"但是如果是不配合台灣那個參政權需要10年的戶籍以上我們很多討論都講得非常清楚因為部長我沒有要跟你討論法今天如果他有雙重國籍他不行你就讓他馬上離開"},{"start":537.643,"end":555.07,"text":"這是我說 我現在要講的是這個部分如果還沒有 那你們要去處理這一部分你要去處理這一部分那如果還不是的時候我們希望你尊重每一個人身為人就必須要被尊重這是中華民國存在最大的價值"},{"start":558.391,"end":579.543,"text":"是一個尊重人的國家過去民主進步黨也是這樣犧牲的啊我們希望你們去注重這一塊你要怎麼處理它 我們沒有意見你今天如果它是違法了 你就好好的處理可是不要用這種態度 不要用這種對待我覺得這是很不人道 而且真的很傷人"},{"start":580.143,"end":605.628,"text":"今天我身為女性 今天我身為我們一個人這樣的尊嚴 我們覺得這樣子真的是很大的羞辱所以在這裡 我們這不是他自己決定的啊你中選會之前你審查過啊 你大法官也監視過啊你這邊沒有做到的時候 你讓他一個人去承擔他有辦法去中華人民共和國去拿那一份資料嗎"},{"start":606.708,"end":623.697,"text":"我剛剛提到的你請國家之力你都沒有辦法讓一個國家去改變我們的稱呼你叫一個陸配一個中華人民共和國出生的一個女性你去拿這樣的資料如果真的拿不到你們明知道拿不到"},{"start":624.497,"end":634.28,"text":"妳要求他做這樣的事 如果他不行 妳資格不行 妳去處理這個部分嘛這是我今天要提出來 剛才我們很心平氣和地講到這樣我目前想要尊重 請回接下來我想要請教院長"},{"start":647.344,"end":663.022,"text":"好 我要講一句話 你談的這件事情跟人 跟性別都無關它只是跟國家有關 跟法律有關我們遵守就是國家的法律我們的法律 現在我們接下來所說的新興計畫也是法律院長"},{"start":664.904,"end":684.339,"text":"我們的法律其實有很多的解釋是看你怎麼解釋你先從尊重然後再去執行你的法律你要執行法律我們沒有意見我們也尊重我們國家的法律應該怎麼走應該怎麼做我們都非常尊重可是當你還是的時候我們希望這是基本的人權"},{"start":686.18,"end":706.517,"text":"應該要尊重身為人應該被好好的對待你喜不喜歡是另外一回事你法律是另外一回事今天有一個違法的人去在職場工作的時候你即使不喜歡他即使他有其他的 兩句話就好了我們歡迎所有的人來加入中華民國這個大行列但是你要在這裡從政必須要"},{"start":707.237,"end":734.071,"text":"那你就處理 那你處理這個部分嘛你處理這個部分嘛你處理這個部分嘛今天所有的行政權所有的法律的解釋權所有的權限都在你們手上的時候你應該去做的是這個部分應該去做的是這個部分而不是去貶義因為他這三十幾年來他沒有在這裡犯過法他沒有做過為非作歹的事情我們希望尊重的是這樣"},{"start":735.893,"end":753.874,"text":"院長我們講到的是這個部分如果是這樣那我們剛才還要求我們也可以這樣要求說你自己都講得那麼大聲我們編了那麼多的預算你應該跟其他的國家講說我們就是中華民國你應該不可以包括寫中國我們跟立法院都講不通了我就跟哪一個國家講你如果兩萬"},{"start":755.476,"end":775.158,"text":"那是你的問題欸院長那是你的問題院長那是你的問題院長那是你的問題那是你的問題如果今天你對其他的國家你也做不到我就說你以一個國家之力你都沒有辦法做到所以立法院是比外國還外國的啊立法院獨立在中華民國之外嗎"},{"start":776.599,"end":792.644,"text":"院長身為院長你不用跟我講這個那是你們去討論的你沒有好好講院長今天院長的職務是你我現在提出這樣的建議你聽不聽你們可以自己去做選擇"},{"start":793.604,"end":808.327,"text":"今天在這一塊土地上面我們希望每一個人都受到尊重你應該依法辦理我們尊重可是請尊重每一個人這是我要強調的接下來我想要請教新興計畫的部分"},{"start":809.048,"end":831.688,"text":"新型計畫我們目前在上個禮拜立法院有通過718億38項的這個部分大概就民生類的TPAS或者生活生育補助治水防洪等等我們同意行政院先行動之之前行政院發言人其實他也強力的表示"},{"start":833.269,"end":846.886,"text":"這個是違反預算法51條既違憲又違法而且史無前例可是主計長已經說了其實他已經把這些公文大概也發出去了就是說根據預算法第54條"},{"start":848.388,"end":865.604,"text":"我們是可以先行動之就這樣子我們從現在跟剛剛對照就法律看你怎麼解釋那我們還是尊重如果說這是必要的我們還是希望可以去動之相關的預算不僅可以照顧我們年輕人"},{"start":866.525,"end":895.104,"text":"它在我們現在少子化的狀況上面既然有這樣的政策我們支持那另外在治山防洪治水防洪的這個部分因為台灣現在又快到了雨季那大概也很容易發生這樣的災害我們也同意希望這些預算可以先通過先行動之尤其是對於百萬人可能會用到的這些交通的這些相關的補助我們也同意那就這些我們現在"},{"start":896.885,"end":919.188,"text":"如果就我們剛剛的說明跟解釋我們之前說不行那現在又可以那他的考量或者他的轉彎的那個他的用意到底是什麼也謝謝委員提到剛剛說718億這個是必要的那其他的98%我認為也是必要的"},{"start":921.421,"end":936.232,"text":"沒關係 你認為必要 那你應該要說服大家是不是他哪一個部分必要我們有機會來這裡說服嗎 連副委都不副委那個跟副委沒有關係院長 那跟什麼有關係 請你告訴我 我如果來這裡說服我告訴你最大的那個癥結點就是軍人加薪還有錦銷 還有錦銷的他們所得替代率"},{"start":946.5,"end":958.685,"text":"合憲我們就編而且追加回來那你剛剛那個你也可以先釋憲啊先不附屬啊因為你剛剛你們在上個禮拜你說這是違憲然後又違法可是這個你們現在就馬上做了為什麼那你剛剛提到的那些"},{"start":963.587,"end":982.463,"text":"照顧軍人 接下來我們等一下還會提到我們的國防預算當你沒有人 沒有優秀的人才沒有足夠的人力的時候 我們邊界比偏低的時候你要多多的預算都是騙人的因為你沒有相關的人院長你如果在這裡講法我們剛剛也是要把它提過來"},{"start":985.185,"end":1003.737,"text":"法律的是用行政機關來解釋剛剛你說的軍人跟警消的那個問題那不是那個法律本身的問題是他違背預算法違背憲法立法院來替行政院編列預算的問題這才是違憲問題他沒有特別編列預算啊他建議你這樣你可以編那你之前之前我們的"},{"start":1007.859,"end":1029.227,"text":"原住民的砍伐條例你也過了那時候你們也說違憲違法所以我說你現在法律是由你們去做解釋的所以我們現在可以去體會的我們現在認為去體會的就是你可以去解釋憲法或法律嘛"},{"start":1030.567,"end":1049.605,"text":"到底是不是這樣因為反正我們現在都是一直在進行當中我們現在提出來大概就是這個狀況今天如果可以讓我們做這樣這麼大的一個轉變不然你說違憲那你也可以去送解釋那你現在沒有辦法送的時候你還沒有的時候它就還沒有成立"},{"start":1053.008,"end":1071.477,"text":"當你還沒有被解釋的時候它就還沒有成立所以這一點我們也請院長要明白這一點那接下來我想要請教的是我們現在連續兩年我們通過的總預算都非常的高幾乎都達到近三兆甚至都超過三兆雖然今年的我們還沒有審議剛剛您說為什麼還沒有"},{"start":1074.258,"end":1098.328,"text":"其實主要原因就是這樣我們希望我們照顧到所有的預算其實好好的照顧到每一個部分那我們在預算編列的這麼多的情況之下其實地方常常面臨到很大的一個困境或問題就是我們在申請補助的時候一般可能有一些社團甚至社區或者有一些地方的團體"},{"start":1099.688,"end":1116.549,"text":"或者像一些民間的一個協會等等其實他們要申請補助或者地方政府要申請補助的時候其實現在都比較困難因為我們中央大概也常常會說我們的經費不足或者你的整個計畫書的內容不夠明確內容不夠好"},{"start":1119.113,"end":1134.573,"text":"然後我們不知道你的效益在哪裡甚至連兩萬十萬常常都拿不到補助那地方政府就更不用說了比如說我們有很多的治山防洪的計畫過去我們有很多的濃水路尤其像我們南投縣多山多水"},{"start":1134.994,"end":1157.234,"text":"尤其河川多那像上一次在花蓮因為一個破口其實它整個堤防只要一破掉它造成的損害就非常的大可是我們現在如果要及時去做這些可能在很多建設上面的一些申請補助的時候其實都很困難那院長就這個部分您的看法是什麼"},{"start":1157.901,"end":1170.462,"text":"我們未來四年編的一千億協助縣市管河川改善這個委員應該知道了那這筆錢就是你剛剛認為有必要的那七百一十八億當中所以預算通過了我們才能用"},{"start":1171.697,"end":1197.97,"text":"做這麼簡單院長不是您錯了因為過去沒有特別沒有編列這些新興計畫的時候我們每年我們相關的預算都有因為我不是第一年到所以我們四年特別編了1000億啊我現在過去就是已經有這麼多的錢可是它現在不容易補助那現在很多的補助它需要很多甚至每個補助的計畫書動輒都要一整本然後寫很多然後才常常拿不到"},{"start":1198.57,"end":1225.479,"text":"那就這些部分我們也希望我們中央可以去體恤我們有很多的地方的單位其實他需要這些相關的一些挹注其實縣市館河川本來就是縣市政府要處理的這個不是河川而已啦包括我們有些地方他可能產業沒有我講很多嘛我說還有社區啦還有協會啊很多協會比如說他產業只要不是全國性的協會也是地方政府該協助不是嗎沒有不是"},{"start":1225.819,"end":1250.834,"text":"有很多的協會中央一直都有現在還有那個沒有搞清楚的問題因為現在的預算他就是可以補助院長我們現在要提到的是當你在對於有很多重大建設或產業發展或產業觀光促進活動的時候我們看不到很多的政績可是我們看到你不斷的一直在這裡"},{"start":1251.955,"end":1261.029,"text":"其實跟我們對嗆沒有用我們要的是希望大家可以做更好更多的這些建設讓台灣更好讓我們所有的安定我們有沒有提出六區的產業生活圈"},{"start":1267.799,"end":1275.349,"text":"我沒有提出AI新十大建設我沒有這些新興的計畫你就不會做事了嗎沒有預算當然不能做事光我們看到這些你們不是沒有預算"},{"start":1285.21,"end":1303.737,"text":"馬英九時期我們的總預算只有一兆八千多億到了現在賴清德政府已經高達三兆的預算去年就已經差不多是這樣的規模了你說你沒有預算不能做事這是騙人的這是欺人的你在欺騙所有的國人那你去年的錢都花到"},{"start":1309.419,"end":1332.707,"text":"你去年都花到哪裡去你去年已經編列這麼高的預算我們現在還要再提出來今年我們所有的今天很多的預算包括你的總預算都已經非常高馬委員希望我們一年編一兆的預算嗎馬委員你希望我們一年編一兆的預算是不是你說我們現在應該跟馬政府一樣一兆的預算嗎"},{"start":1334.144,"end":1351.932,"text":"你剛剛不是這樣講嗎馬政府一照做很多事情我們現在三照沒有做事情不要扭曲我的說法我說馬政府實施偏劣總預算一照八千多億你現在已經高達近三照你說你沒有預算來執行我說的是你說錯了"},{"start":1353.092,"end":1370.791,"text":"我要告訴你也是這個 我剛剛從來沒有說過你應該編一照八千億或者一照你說錯了今天身為院長 如果是來這裡談幹的你沒有資格 正在那個位置我們代表人員我們希望可以表達台灣的相信"},{"start":1371.832,"end":1399.673,"text":"你今天是金融不足的,你是想要照顧台灣?你是認為中華民國沒有這個三兆的預算嗎?三兆的預算你好好的去編列你有通過嗎?如果我剛剛講到一個癥結點今天軍人你都不願意照顧,只說你要過三兆你只要你要的錢,你有照顧軍人嗎?你有照顧警消嗎?現在這些缺人缺得非常嚴重,為什麼?"},{"start":1400.473,"end":1418.161,"text":"你去問看看為什麼有些軍人還願意勉強留下來因為他們認為有這一份家籍因為他們的生活需要因為他們現在在為國家保護國家去年一直連我們對軍人加薪了171億171億給誰 軍人你現在我們所有 你說你錯了哪些軍人"},{"start":1428.877,"end":1456.829,"text":"院長你說一下我們對很多的戰鬥部隊都加急了哪些軍人哪些戰鬥部隊書面我們講過很多次了維修的辛不辛苦再請部長講一下維修的辛不辛苦我們通過的不是那一部分院長你今天如果不願意照顧軍人我剛剛說的不見得都是戰鬥部隊為什麼沒有照顧軍人你現在就是沒有照顧軍人我們通過的法律希望你們可以確實的執行現在我們要再提出來的"},{"start":1457.529,"end":1474.168,"text":"我們在今年 近年國防預算不斷的升高馬政府時期是三千億蔡政府大概最後一年大概將近六千億現在賴政府已經高達九千四百九十五億而且在去年底"},{"start":1475.322,"end":1484.734,"text":"也就是在幾個月前你們還通過了因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算5447億這個部分在國防就佔了1110多億你現在又編一兆2500億我們"},{"start":1494.346,"end":1518.166,"text":"部長之前其實有提到啦部長其實您在擔任國防部長之前你是在國安會大小軍團你都參與過我們的國防預算你也都經歷過很多我們軍購不是第一年才產生才有軍購的這個部分過去我們在沒有特別預算的情況之下我們每年的軍購不管你是買魚殺飛彈、飆槍飛彈、刺針飛彈、脫勢飛彈或者包括我們的魚雷"},{"start":1522.789,"end":1543.208,"text":"各種武器裝備還有包括我們的戰車我們都是編列相關的預算因應那時候的預算規模就是我剛剛講的有3000億有6000億你現在高達9000多億你跟我們說你不夠然後你又編了1100多億你去年編了1100多億裡面你有看到那是要做什麼嗎"},{"start":1544.69,"end":1561.311,"text":"你包括廁所包括買桌子椅子包括買很多平板電腦都編在特別預算裡面你現在的一兆2500億我剛剛提到有很多地方要申請經費的時候寫了一大本的規劃書拿不到半毛的補助款"},{"start":1562.132,"end":1578.48,"text":"今天你編一照2500億的時候剛開始如果不是後來部長這邊有開了一個機密會議你們甚至連內容我們通通不知道然後你就認為說一照2500億全部要通過就像部長講的我們支持國防過去"},{"start":1579.66,"end":1595.425,"text":"部長在國安會期間有任何的軍購案是被凍結或者被刪減嗎沒有其中有一次有凍結的部分只有魚雷MK48MK48從107年建案到現在現在115年了長達8年的時間現在一枚都沒有來"},{"start":1601.481,"end":1629.018,"text":"說非常重要可是他連一枚都沒有來你們在要經費的時候都跟我們說非常的重要可是當他沒有來的時候我們說F16不是我們拿這個來消遣我們的行政單位F16是我們的主力戰機F16V現在到今年是特別預算的結束年今年最後一年現在已經3月了12月底就結束了我們的"},{"start":1631.04,"end":1652.678,"text":"這個到底要怎麼處置 他可以來嗎 66架2500億的特別預算他如果沒有來 對我們戰力會造成什麼影響有對國人做過交代嗎我們現在要買的是什麼東西 你們有做過清楚的交代嗎除了現在美方提供的發價書明確出來以外我們過去也有軍購啊 我們可以用機密預算"},{"start":1653.659,"end":1671.22,"text":"當你提供需求的時候我想這個部長非常清楚他之前在國安會當你提出需求以後我們提出他們會提供報價單報價單以後他們經過很多的程序以後同意以後會給我們發價數我們才公開出來這個我們都理解"},{"start":1671.821,"end":1683.936,"text":"所以有一些如果是軍購的部分我們會知道他應該要什麼樣的流程可是當你一照2500億你到底編什麼到現在都講得不清不楚的情況之下你們說我們一定要編到底為什麼"},{"start":1684.876,"end":1714.336,"text":"跟委員簡短的報告好第一點我想國軍去年的邊線比都有提升流營率也提升那麼志願役的人數也增加我想這個有公於這個有歸可以歸功於這個我們去年的這個這個戰鬥部隊等等的五項加起來大幅增加這是第一點說明第二點我想一照2500億現在是在調例調例如果沒有互違根本沒有在委員會有案子沒有在委員會有案子我們還特必"},{"start":1715.236,"end":1740.041,"text":"還沒有互違之前我們就來做機密專報其實理論上來講應該要經過互違我們才有可能去做專報啊所以一照2500元那是條例先要審查審查的時候我們會去做這個專報專報來說明整個條例它所編制的各個的項目之後條例通過以後我們還要送預算交給大院審查"},{"start":1741.481,"end":1757.528,"text":"預算通過之後委員應該也知道是等預算通過之後美方的發價書才會過來啊對不對這整個建案的程序其實是要我們先跟美方有一個初步的願意公售的意願之後我們要編預算編預算才有發價書啊這是第二點"},{"start":1761.15,"end":1780.743,"text":"第三點我想相關的這些我們跟美方所籌購的這些項目確實像你講的F16它有遲延的狀況MK48有遲延的狀況但是不因為我們有這些遲延的狀況我們就不需要再講持續的強化我們的戰力持續強化我們的戰力是一件最重要的事情"},{"start":1786.227,"end":1803.739,"text":"今天這些延宕我們就不部署就不部署其他武器裝備這是錯的我們所有的武器裝備我剛剛講了這個已經延宕好幾年可是我們每年還是通過很多的預算所以你講的是錯的可是你剛剛講到一個重點你說我們的流盈率你說我們的流盈率"},{"start":1807.341,"end":1826.61,"text":"前件我有意見 當這個部分你餘累都還沒來前件都還沒有測試過了以後我們為什麼有預算 你到今年我們是前年通過的院長你可以知道這個部分你這個部分你只會耍嘴皮子而已你今天沒有民意體育 今天如果部長 今天如果"},{"start":1829.912,"end":1829.932,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:13.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:51:19.785000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長、外交部部長、內政部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:19.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:51:23.550000+08:00","text":"卓院長，還有外交部部長、內政部部長請備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:36.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:51:36.799000+08:00","text":"馬委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:37.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:51:38.801000+08:00","text":"院長好、部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:38.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T09:51:40.142000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:51:40.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:52:04.542000+08:00","text":"今天我要就幾個議題希望跟院長還有幾個部會來做探討，現在其實在很多霸凌的面向上，不管是校園的霸凌也好、職場的霸凌也好或者是各個場域的霸凌，現在其實還是充斥在我們的周遭，我們也常常看到很多相關的訊息。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:52:06.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:52:12.079000+08:00","text":"院長不曉得對於霸凌有什麼樣的看法或者有什麼樣的因應之道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T09:52:13.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:52:41.953000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提醒，過去我們從曾有部會發生過這種嚴重的事端之後，我們就從內部跟外部都做了一些相關而必要的防範措施，申訴的管道讓它更暢通，申訴的層級也讓它提高，甚至引進外部的力量來對這些案件做有效的、最後的裁判，讓所有申訴的人能夠在被保護的狀態之下，勇於說出自己被不公平對待的過程。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T09:52:43.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:52:51.870000+08:00","text":"也因為有更專業的心理諮商問題，讓他事後能夠得到心理的撫慰，這個我們都在各個部會全面展開。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:52:53.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:53:19.535000+08:00","text":"在很多職場的霸凌上面，包括總是被貶抑、被批評，或者是不公平的待遇、刻意的排擠、孤立等等，包括勞動部大概也做了很多的宣傳，諸如職場的冷暴力、被同事刻意疏遠、排擠、貶低、批評、羞辱、惡意的操弄等等，其實這個就是職場的冷暴力，這個也是霸凌。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:53:20.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:53:39.232000+08:00","text":"我們很希望在我們這個自由民主的國家、這麼重視人權的國家，我們應該要好好守住這樣一個大方向，尤其我們應該要守住這樣一個照顧，就是每一個人都應該被照顧到。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:53:39.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:54:07.950000+08:00","text":"所以接下來我想要請教外交部長，過去像丹麥發給我們的居留證上面，即從臺灣來的，你的國籍可以寫「臺灣」，現在卻變成「中國」，從2024年3月一直到現在2026年3月已經長達兩年的時間，它有沒有改變？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:54:07.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:54:19.772000+08:00","text":"我們在持續交涉中，也對應地降低了丹麥駐臺代表跟他們辦事處的一些特權。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:54:19.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:54:33.283000+08:00","text":"另外我們也協調了包括G7在內的歐洲國家協助，希望丹麥依照歐盟國家跟我們交往的標準來進行。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:54:34.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:54:38.545000+08:00","text":"但是他們因為有特定人的立場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:54:38.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:54:40.425000+08:00","text":"沒關係，目前其實我們還在交涉中嘛，對不對？對。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:54:41.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:55:22.995000+08:00","text":"另外就是近期發生的，韓國跟我們其實來往非常密切，我們國人到韓國旅遊的、我們經貿的往來等各方面，還包括很多競賽等等，其實韓國也是我們可能會選擇去的一個很重要的國家，可是近期在他的電子簽證上面也要求我們在國籍上面寫「中國臺灣」，目前我們的因應作為是叫國人儘量填寫書面的，在這個部分，我們又做了什麼樣的努力？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:55:23.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:55:25.137000+08:00","text":"現在韓國有做調整、改變了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:55:26.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:55:45.960000+08:00","text":"報告委員，本來韓國是2月1日開始要全面電子化這些入境的表格，經過我們交涉，他們還是維持紙本與電子化並行，可是現在我們相對應也對南韓稱為「南韓」，在臺灣的這些登錄，包括戶籍資料，就以「南韓」稱之。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:55:46.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:00.940000+08:00","text":"另外，涉及到對等，我們也已經做好準備，經過國安會，還有我們和內政部移民署等的協調，我們也有配套做法，總之，外交就是秉持對等尊嚴。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:00.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:02.901000+08:00","text":"對，部長，可是我們還是沒有辦法改變現狀，因為他就是Korea……","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:02.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:05.783000+08:00","text":"先暫時停止它繼續惡化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:06.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:13.408000+08:00","text":"我知道，你說在國內我們稱他「南韓」，可是在全世界各地大家稱呼他的是不會改變的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:14.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:34.415000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，依國際現狀，我們很理解，所以我們也能夠支持我們所有外交上的努力，在還不能改變現狀的情況之下，我們希望給大家機會，讓你有更多空間、時間，更強力去表達我們自己的訴求……是。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:35.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:38.959000+08:00","text":"接下來，我想要請教內政部劉部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:38.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:49.287000+08:00","text":"我想要請教一下，我們中華民國的國人（已經有身分證存在的），我們到底要怎麼樣去看待他？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:51.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:56:53.047000+08:00","text":"你是說到韓國去的事情，還是……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:56:53.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:57:04.052000+08:00","text":"不是，就是任何一個我們中華民國的國人，我們應該要怎麼樣去對待，不管他來自哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:57:04.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:57:10.615000+08:00","text":"如果他有中華民國身分證的話，當然他是等同於我們中華民國國民，所有的權利義務都包含在內。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:57:11.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:57:45.583000+08:00","text":"那我想要請教一下，包括剛剛也有委員關切到，就是現在我們有一位委員，對他的身分，到現在我們行政團隊還是不予認同，甚至有剛剛我講的這些冷暴力或者是各種批評、羞辱，我們在地方上聽到很多聲音，這不應該發生在我們國家裡面。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:57:47.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:58:23.978000+08:00","text":"他已經在這裡生活了三十幾年，即使他過去是在中國大陸出生的，但是剛剛我們提到，包括我們外交處境的現況，我們傾國家之力都沒有辦法去改變其他國家把我們的名稱改回來，你是一個行政團隊，今天如果他是非常不恰當的或者就是違法的，你直接把他停掉，當你還沒有辦法做到這樣的時候，我們希望尊重每一個人。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:58:26.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:58:39.682000+08:00","text":"就像雖然今天我出生在臺灣，我也很會講臺語、我也一直愛臺灣，可是我們一直被貶抑說是親中賣臺，那些我們也把它吞下來。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:58:39.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:58:49.364000+08:00","text":"這個是沒有辦法被別人貼標籤的，今天當有一個人現在還有這樣的身分，你們這樣對待，我覺得已經超過了。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:58:49.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:13.442000+08:00","text":"如果可能的話，既然行政團隊可以聲請釋憲、可以不副署、可以去解釋，包括接下來要談的我們的預算，你都可以在幾天前解釋是違憲和違法，現在又同意它可以這樣實施，所以我想看你們怎麼樣去解釋這個事情。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:13.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:38.330000+08:00","text":"今天三位站在這裡，我們只希望給予人基本的尊重，今天如果他不行，你們就直接說他不行，直接找出一條法律就讓他離開，他今天可以站在國會殿堂，表示他還有這樣的資格，請尊重每一個人、每一個中華民國的國人，這是我們想要講的、我想要表達的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:38.330000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:39.330000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們可不可以回應一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:39.330000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:40.330000+08:00","text":"沒關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:39.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:47.078000+08:00","text":"我想回應一下，我們按照國籍法，第一個，中華民國國民有參政權，但是如果是陸配來臺灣，這樣的參政權需要有十年以上的戶籍……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:47.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:48.078000+08:00","text":"部長，我沒有要跟你討論法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:47.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:48.718000+08:00","text":"這個我們很多法律都講得非常清楚，他有雙重國籍的嫌疑，而不是只在基本人權。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:48.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T09:59:51.620000+08:00","text":"部長，我沒有要跟你討論法，今天如果他有雙重國籍，他不行，你就讓他馬上離開……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T09:59:51.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:01.523000+08:00","text":"那請立法院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:01.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:07.526000+08:00","text":"我現在要講的是這個部分，如果還沒有，你們要去處理這部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:07.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:08.526000+08:00","text":"那請立法院辦理解職。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:08.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:12.668000+08:00","text":"如果還不是的時候，我們希望你尊重每一個人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:12.668000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:13.668000+08:00","text":"我們非常尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:13.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:18.050000+08:00","text":"身為人，就必須要被尊重，這是中華民國存在最大的價值。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:18.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:21.391000+08:00","text":"當然，我們也非常尊重所有的陸配。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:21.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:25.653000+08:00","text":"我們是一個人權國家，是一個尊重人的國家，過去民主進步黨也是這樣才創立的。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:25.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:26.653000+08:00","text":"非常的尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:26.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:31.096000+08:00","text":"我們希望你們去注重這一塊，你要怎麼處理他，我們沒有意見。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:31.096000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:32.096000+08:00","text":"依法論法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:31.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:50.704000+08:00","text":"今天如果他違法了，你就好好的處理，可是不要用這種態度、不要用這種對待，我覺得這很不人道，而且真的很傷人，今天我身為女性、今天我身為一個人，我們覺得這樣子對於尊嚴真的是很大的羞辱。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:50.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:53.625000+08:00","text":"我們保障所有中華民國國民的參政權，但是一定要經過法律認定。","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:53.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:00:59.666000+08:00","text":"這不是他自己決定的，中選會之前審查過，大法官也監誓過……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:00:59.666000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:01.026000+08:00","text":"宣誓條例只是一個宣誓的過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:01.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:08.628000+08:00","text":"當你這邊沒有做到的時候，你讓他一個人去承擔，他有辦法去中華人民共和國拿那一份資料嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:08.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:09.708000+08:00","text":"委員，你不要包庇非法的陸配。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:09.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:32.419000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的，你傾國家之力都沒有辦法讓一個國家改變我們的稱呼，你叫一個陸配、一個在中華人民共和國出生的女性去拿這樣的資料，如果真的拿不到，你們明知道拿不到，你要求他做這樣的事，如果他不行、資格不行，你去處理這個部分嘛！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:33.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:33.999000+08:00","text":"這是我今天要提出來的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:33.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:34.999000+08:00","text":"委員，他沒有否認他是有中華人民共和國國籍的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:33.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:35.940000+08:00","text":"剛才我們很心平氣和的講到這樣，我目前想要尊重……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:35.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:36.940000+08:00","text":"他沒有否認他有中華人民共和國國籍，雙重國籍不能擔任立法委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:35.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:01:37.280000+08:00","text":"請回，接下來我想要請教院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:01:50.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:00.195000+08:00","text":"委員，我只講一句話，你談論的這件事情跟人、跟性別都無關，它只是跟國家有關、跟法律有關，我們遵守的就是國家的法律。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:01.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:43.172000+08:00","text":"我們接下來所說的新興計畫也是法律，院長，我們的法律其實有很多的解釋是看你怎麼解釋，你先從尊重，然後再去執行你的法律，你要執行法律，我們沒有意見，我們也尊重，我們國家的法律應該怎麼走、應該怎麼做，我們都非常尊重，可是當他還是這個身分的時候，我們希望這是基本的人權，應該要尊重，身為人，應該被好好的對待，你喜不喜歡是另外一回事、法律是另外一回事，今天有一個違法的人在職場工作的時候，你即使不喜歡他，即使他有其他的……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:43.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:50.377000+08:00","text":"我只講兩句話就好了，我們歡迎所有的人來加入中華民國這個大行列，但是你要在這裡從政，必須要具備合法的要件，你才能夠從政。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:51.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:52.919000+08:00","text":"那你處理這一個部分嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:53.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:56.701000+08:00","text":"不要用其他的方式，你處理這一個部分。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:57.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:02:57.741000+08:00","text":"正在處理。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:02:58.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:10.348000+08:00","text":"今天所有的行政權、所有法律的解釋權、所有的權限都在你們手上的時候，你應該去做的是這個部分，而不是去貶抑……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:10.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:11.348000+08:00","text":"能夠撤銷他資格的只有立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:10.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:17.071000+08:00","text":"因為這三十幾年來他沒有在這裡犯過法、他沒有做過為非作歹的事情，我們希望尊重的是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:17.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:21.656000+08:00","text":"我只要他完成要件、法定的程序。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:21.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:34.271000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，那我們也可以這樣要求，說你自己都講得那麼大聲，我們編了那麼多的預算，你應該跟其他的國家講說我們就是中華民國，你應該不可以把我寫成中國、不可以把我寫成中國臺灣。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:34.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:36.514000+08:00","text":"我們跟立法院都講不通了，我去跟哪一個國家講？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:38.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:39.017000+08:00","text":"那是你的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:39.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:41.700000+08:00","text":"不是，是立法院的問題。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:41.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:43.181000+08:00","text":"院長，那是你的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:43.181000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:44.181000+08:00","text":"我去外國講不通，我們在立法院都講不通了，你要我去跟國外講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:43.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:47.626000+08:00","text":"院長，那是你的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:47.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:53.813000+08:00","text":"如果今天對其他的國家你也做不到，我就說，以一個國家之力你都沒有辦法做到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:53.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:55.495000+08:00","text":"所以立法院是比外國還外國的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:55.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:56.756000+08:00","text":"先不要對個人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:56.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:03:58.158000+08:00","text":"立法院獨立在中華民國之外嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:03:59.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:05.461000+08:00","text":"院長，身為院長，你不用跟我講這個，那是你們去討論的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:05.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:06.461000+08:00","text":"我好好的跟你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:05.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:07.421000+08:00","text":"你沒有好好講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:07.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:08.421000+08:00","text":"最後的權力在立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:07.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:15.644000+08:00","text":"今天擔任院長職務的是你，我現在提出這樣的建議，你聽不聽，你們可以自己去做選擇。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:16.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:04:28.563000+08:00","text":"今天在這一塊土地上面，我們希望每一個人都受到尊重，你應該依法辦理，我們尊重，可是請尊重每一個人，這是我要強調的。是。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:04:28.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:05:00.755000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要請教新興計畫的部分，在上個禮拜立法院有通過718億、38項的新興計畫，大概是就民生類的TPASS或者生育補助、治水防洪等等，我們同意行政院先行動支，之前行政院發言人也強力表示，這個是違反預算法第五十一條，既違憲又違法，而且史無前例。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:05:01.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:05:14.471000+08:00","text":"可是主計長說其實他已經把這些公文發出去了，就是說根據預算法第五十四條規定，我們是可以先行動支的，所以就這樣子。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:05:14.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:05:33.948000+08:00","text":"我們把現在跟剛剛對照，就看你怎麼解釋法律，我們還是尊重，如果這是必要的，我們還是希望可以動支相關的預算，這樣可以照顧到我們的年輕人，在現在少子化的狀況上，既然有這樣的政策，我們支持。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:05:34.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:05:56.383000+08:00","text":"另外，在治山防洪、治水防洪的部分，因為現在又快到雨季了，也很容易發生這樣的災害，我們也同意，希望這些預算可以先通過、先行動支，尤其是對於百萬人可能會用到的交通相關補助，我們也同意。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:05:57.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:14.500000+08:00","text":"就剛剛的說明跟解釋，你們之前說不行，但現在又可以，其中的考量或轉彎的用意到底是什麼？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:14.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:15.500000+08:00","text":"院長可以說明一下嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:14.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:22.168000+08:00","text":"也謝謝委員提到，剛剛說的718億，這個是必要的，至於其他的98%，我認為也是必要的，是不是？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:24.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:29.485000+08:00","text":"沒關係，如果你認為必要，那你應該要說服大家是哪一個部分必要嘛！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:29.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:31.627000+08:00","text":"我們有機會來這裡說服嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:31.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:32.227000+08:00","text":"連付委都不付委了。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:32.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:35.189000+08:00","text":"那個跟付委沒有關係啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:35.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:37.071000+08:00","text":"那跟什麼有關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:37.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:38.071000+08:00","text":"院長，你應該很清楚……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:37.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:37.631000+08:00","text":"請您告訴我，我如何來這裡說服？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:37.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:39.212000+08:00","text":"好，我告訴你最大的癥結點就是軍人加薪以及警消的所得替代率。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:49.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:51.901000+08:00","text":"那我就說了，大法官解釋出來是合憲，我們就編，而且追加回來；如果不合憲，就不編。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:53.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:06:55.823000+08:00","text":"剛剛那個你也可以先聲請釋憲、先不副署啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:06:57.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:01.425000+08:00","text":"在上個禮拜你說這是違憲又違法的，然後這個你們現在就馬上做了，為什麼？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:01.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:02.425000+08:00","text":"在行政作業上，它已經不具備了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:01.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:22.440000+08:00","text":"那你剛剛提到的那些照顧軍人，我們等一下還會提到我們的國防預算，當你沒有優秀的人才、沒有足夠人力的時候，我們編現比偏低的時候，你要編多多的預算都是騙人的，因為你沒有相關的人。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:22.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:23.440000+08:00","text":"法律的適用……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:22.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:25.463000+08:00","text":"院長，你如果要在這裡講法，我們剛剛也是要把它提過來……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:28.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:42.174000+08:00","text":"委員，有一點你沒有很清楚，法律的適用由行政機關來解釋，至於剛剛你說的軍人跟警消的問題，那不是那個法律本身的問題，而是它違背預算法、違背憲法，立法院來替行政院編列預算的問題，這才是違憲問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:42.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:45.456000+08:00","text":"它沒有特別編列預算，它是建議你這樣，你可以編。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:45.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:46.456000+08:00","text":"你只是建議，我可以不編啊！","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:46.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:47.456000+08:00","text":"你只是建議，我當然可以不編啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:47.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:48.456000+08:00","text":"我感謝你的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:07:45.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:07:59.442000+08:00","text":"之前原住民的禁伐補償條例通過了，那時候你們也說違憲、違法，所以我說現在法律是由你們去做解釋的。不是！不是！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:00.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:02.983000+08:00","text":"接下來，所以我們現在可以去體會的……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:02.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:04.864000+08:00","text":"顯然你對憲法和預算法是不瞭解的，第七十一條、第九十三條的規定不是這樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:04.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:30.463000+08:00","text":"我們現在體會的就是你可以去解釋憲法或法律，至於到底是不是這樣，反正我們現在一直在進行當中，我們現在提出來大概就是這個狀況，今天如果可以讓你們做這麼大的一個轉變，不然你說違憲，那你也可以去送解釋啊！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:30.463000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:31.463000+08:00","text":"送了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:30.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:31.824000+08:00","text":"那你現在沒有辦法送的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:31.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:32.824000+08:00","text":"但這個不是違憲的問題，是違法的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:31.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:32.585000+08:00","text":"你還沒有的時候，它就還沒有成立……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:32.585000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:36.008000+08:00","text":"這個是違法的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:36.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:08:42.251000+08:00","text":"當你還沒有聲請解釋的時候，它就還沒有成立，我們也請院長要明白這一點。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:08:42.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:09:03.881000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要請教的是，連續兩年我們通過的總預算都非常地高，幾乎都達到近3兆，甚至超過3兆，雖然今年的預算我們還沒有審議，剛剛您說為什麼還沒有，其實主要原因就是這樣，我們希望所有的預算都能好好地被用來照顧到每一個部分。是的。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:09:04.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:09:44.616000+08:00","text":"我們在預算編列這麼多的情況之下，其實地方常常面臨到很大的困境或問題，就是我們在申請補助的時候，可能有些社團，甚至社區或者有些地方團體或者民間的協會等等，當他們要申請補助或者地方政府要申請補助的時候，其實現在都比較困難，因為中央常常會說：我們的經費不足或者你的整個計畫書的內容不夠明確、內容不夠好，然後我們不知道你的效益在哪裡。","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:09:44.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:09:58.755000+08:00","text":"有時甚至連2萬、10萬都拿不到補助，地方政府就更不用說了，比如說，我們有很多治山防洪的計畫，過去有很多的農水路，像南投縣多山多水，尤其河川多。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:09:59.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:07.282000+08:00","text":"像上一次在花蓮因為一個破口，整個堤防只要一破掉，造成的損害就非常大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:08.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:20.234000+08:00","text":"現在如果要即時去做很多建設的申請補助，其實都很困難，就這個部分，院長的看法是什麼？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:20.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:35.097000+08:00","text":"我們未來4年編了1,000億協助縣市管河川改善，這個委員應該知道，這筆錢就在你剛剛認為有必要的那718億當中，所以預算通過了，我們才能用，就這麼簡單。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:35.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:36.698000+08:00","text":"院長，不是，您錯了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:37.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:44.462000+08:00","text":"過去沒有編列這些新興計畫的時候，每年相關的預算都有，因為我不是第一年當立委，所以……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:44.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:46.343000+08:00","text":"所以我們4年特別編了1,000億。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:47.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:10:51.625000+08:00","text":"過去就已經有這麼多的錢，可是現在不容易補助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:10:52.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:00.950000+08:00","text":"現在很多的補助需要很多……甚至每個補助的計畫書動輒都要一整本，然後寫很多，還常常拿不到。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:01.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:10.773000+08:00","text":"就這些部分，我們也希望中央可以體恤很多的地方單位，其實他們需要這些相關的挹注跟……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:11.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:13.654000+08:00","text":"其實縣市管河川本來就是縣市政府要處理的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:13.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:17.895000+08:00","text":"這個不是河川而已，包括有些地方，可能產業……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:17.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:18.895000+08:00","text":"你剛剛又說縣市管。沒有！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:18.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:22.397000+08:00","text":"我講了很多，我說還有社區、協會，很多協會……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:22.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:23.397000+08:00","text":"社區也是地方政府要去協助的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:22.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:22.917000+08:00","text":"譬如說產業……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:22.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:28.019000+08:00","text":"只要不是全國性的協會，也是地方政府該協助的，不是嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:28.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:28.459000+08:00","text":"沒有，不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:28.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:33.382000+08:00","text":"有很多的協會，中央一直都有經費補助，現在還有……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:33.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:34.382000+08:00","text":"對，你要講清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:34.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:35.382000+08:00","text":"中央的跟地方的，要搞清楚！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:35.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:39.746000+08:00","text":"那個沒有要搞清楚的問題，因為現在的預算就是可以補助。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:40.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:11:56.898000+08:00","text":"院長，我現在要提的是，對於很多重大建設或產業發展或產業觀光促進活動，我們看不到很多的政績，可是我們看到你不斷地一直在這裡跟我們對嗆，其實沒有用。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:11:57.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:02.967000+08:00","text":"我們要的是希望大家可以做更好、更多的建設，讓臺灣更好、讓我們安定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:02.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:03.967000+08:00","text":"我們有沒有4年針對縣市管河川要整頓的預算？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:02.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:04.009000+08:00","text":"我們有沒有提出六區的產業生活圈？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:10.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:12.561000+08:00","text":"我們有提出AI新十大建設……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:12.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:15.345000+08:00","text":"如果沒有這些新興的計畫，你們就不會做事了嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:15.345000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:16.345000+08:00","text":"因為你們都不支持預算！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:15.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:16.206000+08:00","text":"如果沒有這些計畫，你們就不會做事了嗎？","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:16.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:16.707000+08:00","text":"沒有預算，當然不能做事啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:17.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:18.329000+08:00","text":"你們不是沒有預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:18.329000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:28.210000+08:00","text":"整年沒有通過！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:28.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:40.675000+08:00","text":"馬英九時期總預算只有一兆八千多億，到了現在賴清德政府預算已經高達3兆，去年就已經差不多是這樣的規模。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:40.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:41.675000+08:00","text":"現在我們的經濟成長率比馬政府高多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:40.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:43.876000+08:00","text":"你說你沒有預算，不能做事，這是騙人的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:43.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:44.556000+08:00","text":"這是欺人的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:44.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:45.556000+08:00","text":"我們的經濟成長率比馬政府高多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:45.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:46.556000+08:00","text":"現在股市的點數比馬政府高多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:44.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:46.717000+08:00","text":"你在欺騙所有的國人，你去年的錢都花到哪裡去？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:46.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:52.419000+08:00","text":"現在國家的GDP比馬政府高多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:52.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:12:54.020000+08:00","text":"你去年都花到哪裡去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:12:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:05.984000+08:00","text":"你去年已經編列這麼高的預算，我們現在還要再提出來，今年的總預算都已經非常高……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:06.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:09.485000+08:00","text":"我可以告訴全國國人，馬委員希望我們一年編1兆的預算嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:09.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:10.485000+08:00","text":"我們現在再來看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:09.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:11.525000+08:00","text":"馬委員，你希望我們一年編1兆的預算，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:11.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:12.846000+08:00","text":"你說什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:12.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:15.687000+08:00","text":"你說我們現在應該跟馬政府一樣，編1兆的預算嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:15.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:17.144000+08:00","text":"我有說嗎？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:17.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:17.584000+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是這樣講嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:17.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:18.965000+08:00","text":"我說馬政府……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:19.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:21.846000+08:00","text":"馬政府1兆做很多事情，我們現在3兆沒有做事情。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:21.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:23.127000+08:00","text":"院長，不要扭曲我的說法！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:23.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:24.727000+08:00","text":"是你在扭曲現在的歷史事實。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:24.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:37.353000+08:00","text":"我說馬政府時期編列總預算一兆八千多億，現在已經高達近3兆，你卻說沒有預算來執行，我說的是你說錯了，我要告訴你的是這個。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:37.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:43.540000+08:00","text":"我剛剛從來沒有說過你應該編1兆8,000億或1兆，你說錯了！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:43.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:48.986000+08:00","text":"今天你身為院長，如果是來這裡抬槓的，你沒有資格站在這個位置。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:48.986000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:49.986000+08:00","text":"我現在問你，你認為今天中華民國臺灣沒有資格編3兆的預算嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:49.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:53.351000+08:00","text":"我們代表人民，我們希望可以表達臺灣的聲音。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:53.351000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:13:58.995000+08:00","text":"你今天根本就沒資格說你照顧臺灣，因為有很多的經費我們根本沒拿到！","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:13:58.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:03.839000+08:00","text":"你是認為中華民國沒有資格編3兆的預算嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:04.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:06.140000+08:00","text":"我現在要說，3兆的預算你好好地去編列，今天如果……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:06.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:07.321000+08:00","text":"你有通過嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:08.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:18.630000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講到一個癥結點，今天連軍人你都不願意照顧，只說你要過3兆，你只要你要的錢，你有照顧軍人嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:18.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:20.051000+08:00","text":"你有照顧警消嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:20.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:22.673000+08:00","text":"現在這些單位缺人缺得非常嚴重，為什麼？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:23.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:28.035000+08:00","text":"你去問看看，為什麼有些軍人還願意勉強留下來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:28.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:35.719000+08:00","text":"因為他們認為有這一份加給，因為他們的生活需要、因為他們現在在保護國家，他們付出更多的時間、更高的代價……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:37.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:38.520000+08:00","text":"去年一整年我們對軍人加薪了171億。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:38.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:38.520000+08:00","text":"171億是編給誰？軍人。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:38.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:39.160000+08:00","text":"現在我說的是所有……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:39.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:40.160000+08:00","text":"你在國防委員會，你都不清楚！","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:39.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:39.821000+08:00","text":"你錯了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:40.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:41.141000+08:00","text":"哪些軍人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:51.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:52.657000+08:00","text":"院長，你說一下，哪些軍人？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:52.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:55.419000+08:00","text":"我們對很多的戰鬥部隊都加給了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:55.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:55.919000+08:00","text":"哪些軍人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:55.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:56.919000+08:00","text":"戰鬥部隊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:56.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:57.059000+08:00","text":"那些戰鬥部隊？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:57.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:58.180000+08:00","text":"書面我們講過很多次了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:58.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:14:59.320000+08:00","text":"維修的辛不辛苦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:14:59.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:00.521000+08:00","text":"再請部長講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:00.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:01.701000+08:00","text":"維修的人員辛不辛苦？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:02.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:10.405000+08:00","text":"我們通過的不是那一部分，院長，你今天如果不願意照顧軍人，我剛剛說的不見得都是戰鬥部隊……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:10.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:11.265000+08:00","text":"我們編了171億，為什麼沒有照顧軍人？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:12.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:16.888000+08:00","text":"不是你說的戰鬥部隊，你現在就是沒有照顧軍人，我們通過的法律，希望你們可以確實的執行。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:17.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:15:47.714000+08:00","text":"現在我們要再提出來的，在近年國防預算不斷的升高，馬政府時期是3,000億，蔡政府大概最後一年也將近6,000億，現在賴政府已經高達9,495億，而且在去年底，也就是在幾個月前，你們還通過了因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算5,447億，這個部分在國防就占了一千一百十多億，你現在又編1兆2,500億。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:15:57.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:16:32.375000+08:00","text":"部長之前其實也有提到，您在擔任國防部長之前你是在國安會，大小軍談你都參與過，我們的國防預算你也都經歷過很多，我們軍購不是第一年才產生、才有軍購這個部分，過去我們在沒有特別預算的情況之下，每年的軍購不管你是買魚叉飛彈、標槍飛彈、刺針飛彈、拖式飛彈，或者包括我們的魚雷、各種武器裝備，還有包括戰車，我們都是編列相關的預算因應。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:16:32.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:16:46.208000+08:00","text":"那時候的預算規模，就是我剛剛講的有3,000億、有6,000億，你現在高達九千多億，你跟我們說你不夠，然後你又編了一千一百多億，你去年編的一千一百多億裡面，你有看到那是要做什麼嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:16:47.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:17:04.291000+08:00","text":"包括廁所；包括買桌子、椅子；包括買很多平板電腦都編在特別預算裡面，你現在的1兆2,500億，我剛剛提到有很多地方要申請經費的時候寫了一大本的規劃書，拿不到半毛的補助款。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:17:05.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:17:19.219000+08:00","text":"今天你編1兆2,500億的時候，剛開始如果不是後來部長這邊有開了一個機密會議，甚至連內容，我們通通不知道，然後你就認為說1兆2,500億全部通通要通過。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:17:19.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:17:28.942000+08:00","text":"就像部長講的，我們支持國防，過去部長在國安會期間有任何的軍購案是被凍結或者被刪減嗎？沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:17:29.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:17:52.086000+08:00","text":"其中有一次有凍結的部分只有魚雷MK-48，MK-48從107年建案，現在已經是115年了，長達8年的時間，到現在連一枚都沒有來，你們說非常重要，可是連一枚都沒有來，你們在要經費的時候都跟我們說非常重要，可是當它沒有來的時候卻「無要無緊」。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:17:55.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:18:14.921000+08:00","text":"我們說F-16，不是要拿這個來消遣我們的行政單位，F-16是我們的主力戰機，F-16V到今年是特別預算的結束年，今年是最後一年，現在已經3月了，12月底就結束了，這個到底要怎麼處置？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:18:15.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:18:17.202000+08:00","text":"它可以來嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:18:17.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:18:22.307000+08:00","text":"這66架是用2,500億的特別預算採購，它如果沒有來，對我們的戰力會造成什麼影響？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:18:22.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:18:24.669000+08:00","text":"有對國人做過交代嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:18:24.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:18:28.172000+08:00","text":"我們現在要買的是什麼東西，你們有做過清楚的交代嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:18:28.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:19:06.936000+08:00","text":"除了現在美方提供的發價書明確出來以外，我們過去也有軍購可以用機密預算，當你提供需求的時候，我想這部分部長非常清楚，他之前在國安會，當你提出需求以後，他們會提供報價單，有了報價單以後，他們經過很多的程序，在同意以後會給我們發價書，我們才公開出來，這個我們都理解，所以有一些如果是軍購的部分，我們會知道它應該要有什麼樣的流程，可是當這1兆2,500億你到底編什麼，到現在都講得不清不楚的情況之下，你們說我們一定要編，到底為什麼？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄：跟委員簡單的報告","start":"2026-03-17T10:19:09.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:19:26.328000+08:00","text":"第一點，國軍去年的編現比都有提升，留營率也提升，志願役的人數也增加，我想這個可以歸功於我們去年對戰鬥部隊等等的5項加給也大幅增加，這是第一點說明。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄：跟委員簡單的報告","start":"2026-03-17T10:19:26.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:12.225000+08:00","text":"第二點，1兆2,500億現在是在條例，條例如果沒有付委，根本沒有在委員會有案子；沒有在委員會有案子，我們還特地在沒有付委之前就來做機密專報，其實理論上來講，應該要經過付委，我們才有可能去做專報，所以1兆2,500億那是條例，先要審查，審查的時候，我們會去做專報，用專報來說明整個條例所編製的各個項目，在條例通過以後，我們還要送預算交給大院審查，委員應該也知道是等預算通過之後，美方的發價書才會過來，對不對？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄：跟委員簡單的報告","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:12.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:20.068000+08:00","text":"這整個建案的程序其實是要我們先跟美方有一個初步願意供售的意願之後，我們要編預算……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:20.068000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:21.068000+08:00","text":"好，部長，你已經說明過了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:20.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:20.528000+08:00","text":"編預算之後才有發價書，這是第二點。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:24.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:41.442000+08:00","text":"第三點，我想我們跟美方所籌購的這些項目，確實像你所講的，F-16有遲延的狀況，MK-48也有遲延的狀況，但是不因為有這些遲延的狀況，我們就不需要再持續強化我們的戰力……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:41.442000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:42.442000+08:00","text":"好，部長，你講到重點了，因為我只剩下50秒鐘，我們在國防委員會還有機會可以討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:41.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:43.723000+08:00","text":"持續強化我們的戰力是不是我們最重要的事情？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:49.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:20:54.691000+08:00","text":"你說因為這些延宕，所以我們就不部署其他武器裝備，這是錯的！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:20:55.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:02.976000+08:00","text":"我們所有的武器裝備，我剛剛講了這個已經延宕好幾年，可是我們每年還是通過很多的預算，所以你講的是錯的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:02.976000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:03.976000+08:00","text":"美方也有準時交付，甚至提前交付相關的武器裝備啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:03.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:06.198000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講到一個重點，你說我們的留營率……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:06.198000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:10.661000+08:00","text":"重點就是對潛艦的預算委員也有意見，不是嗎？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:10.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:12.402000+08:00","text":"對潛艦我有意見……對啊！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:12.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:18.445000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，現在魚雷都還沒來、潛艦都還沒有測試過，我們為什麼有預算？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:19.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:23.067000+08:00","text":"我們是前年通過的，院長，你可以知道這個部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:23.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:24.848000+08:00","text":"你可以繼續再對潛艦這樣詆毀沒有關係啊！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:24.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:28.470000+08:00","text":"你只會耍嘴皮子而已，你今天沒有民意基礎，今天如果……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:28.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:41.827143+08:00","text":"我們做了好幾十項的裝備，結果有幾項有遲延，不代表我們不需要持續增加我們的防衛韌性和我們的戰力啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:42.127143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:21:47.555714+08:00","text":"部長，剛剛你講到一個重點，為什麼留營率增加？","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:21:47.855714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:08.427143+08:00","text":"你說有戰鬥加給，如果這個可以影響留營率或是可以吸引人才，你們就應該要把軍人的加給編進去，照顧每一個軍人，而不是只照顧少部分的軍人，這個部分希望你們可以做到。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-03-17T10:22:08.727143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:16.155714+08:00","text":"院長，我們希望下一次潛艦要下水的時候，你可以一起下去，謝謝。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T10:22:16.455714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:19.312857+08:00","text":"謝謝馬委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T10:22:19.612857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:26.470000+08:00","text":"報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T10:22:26.770000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:27.912857+08:00","text":"休息（10時22分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T10:22:28.212857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T10:22:29.927143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（10時35分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}